462: Qohelet Rolls the Dice

Summary

Episode Summary: The BEMA Podcast - Episode 462: "Qohelet Rolls the Dice"

Release Date: August 7, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 462 of The BEMA Podcast, titled "Qohelet Rolls the Dice," the hosts Brent Billings and Josh Bosse delve deep into the philosophical and historical contexts of the Book of Qohelet (Ecclesiastes). Joined by guest El Grover Fricks, they explore the intricate themes of wisdom, foolishness, leadership, and community dynamics as presented in Qohelet's proverbs and narratives.

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Exploring Qohelet's Wisdom and Foolishness

The episode kicks off with a discussion on the paradoxical nature of wisdom and foolishness in Qohelet's writings. Kohelet emphasizes the grounded human experience embedded within this philosophical text, highlighting its departure from abstract Western philosophies.

"Wisdom is so powerful, it can even thwart armies. Yet a little bit of foolishness can send the whole thing tumbling down just as easily."
— Kohelet [02:31]

Brent and Josh dissect the metaphor of dead flies in perfume, interpreting it as a representation of how minor flaws or sins can tarnish a person's reputation, regardless of their wisdom or honor.

"Even as fools walk along the road, they lack sense and show everyone how stupid they are."
— Brent Billings [02:44]

The Heart: Right vs. Left

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the symbolic meaning of the heart being on the right versus the left. Josh draws parallels to cultural and linguistic nuances, suggesting that a wise heart being on the right signifies readiness and authenticity, while a foolish heart on the left denotes hidden intentions and lack of preparation.

"The heart of the wise is in his right hand... It's relational, it's authentic, it's vulnerable."
— Josh Bosse [09:49]

Kohelet adds depth to this interpretation by relating it to personal experiences of being lost, illustrating how a lack of "heart" or intentionality leads to visible foolishness.

"I'm walking the wrong way... I just have to stop and turn around and go the opposite way."
— Kohelet [14:04]

Leadership and Patronage

The conversation shifts to the qualities of effective leadership as depicted in Qohelet. The hosts analyze verses that portray foolish rulers and their detrimental impact on society. They draw connections to the Book of Esther, specifically the character of Haman, to illustrate the consequences of poor leadership and misplaced wisdom.

"Fools are put in many high positions while the rich occupy the low ones. I have seen slaves on horseback while princes go on foot like slaves."
— Brent Billings [22:07]

El emphasizes the importance of patronage and genuine relationships in leadership, contrasting it with Haman's superficial and self-serving tactics.

"Words of the mouth of the wise are gracious, but fools are consumed by their own lips."
— Josh Bosse [37:17]

Community Building and Economic Strategies

A pivotal segment of the episode focuses on the role of community and economic strategies in fostering a healthy society. The hosts advocate for the active support of community members through patronage, generosity, and genuine relationships, drawing lessons from both Qohelet and the early Church as depicted in Acts.

"When you are bringing your resources together, is it toward heroism... or just for the flex of it all?"
— Josh Bosse [56:08]

Kohelet ties this back to the structural integrity of a community, likening it to a house that requires care and resources to prevent it from falling apart.

"Through laziness, the rafters sag because of idle hands, the house leaks."
— Kohelet [57:31]

Practical Takeaways and Modern Applications

The episode culminates in actionable insights for listeners aiming to build strong, supportive communities. The hosts emphasize the importance of:

• Generosity and Hospitality: Actively investing in others through resources and support.

  "Give them money, give them resources, give them something like that."
  — Josh Bosse [64:40]

• Authentic Relationships: Building genuine connections that transcend superficial interactions.

  "Connect to people, call out the potential that you see in them, and then do something about it and support each other."
  — Josh Bosse [73:14]

• Wise Leadership: Leaders should utilize their resources wisely, prioritizing community well-being over personal indulgence.

  "Have a feast where people can drink wine and enjoy life. But the answer to the people is like, they need money."
  — Kohelet [62:09]

Conclusion

Episode 462 of The BEMA Podcast offers a profound exploration of Qohelet's teachings, seamlessly integrating ancient wisdom with contemporary community-building strategies. The hosts effectively bridge textual analysis with real-world applications, providing listeners with both intellectual and practical tools to foster healthier, more supportive communities.

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Key Quotes:

• "A little folly outweighs wisdom and honor." — Brent Billings [02:44]
• "The fools are consumed by their own lips." — Josh Bosse [37:17]
• "Don’t revile the king, even in your thoughts, or curse the rich in your bedroom, because a bird in the sky may carry your words and a bird on the wing may report what you say.” — Brent Billings [51:58]
• "Words from the mouth of the wise are gracious, but fools are consumed by their own lips." — Josh Bosse [37:17]

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Final Thoughts

Through thoughtful analysis and engaging dialogue, The BEMA Podcast sheds light on the timeless lessons of Qohelet, urging listeners to embody wisdom, foster genuine relationships, and build resilient communities. Whether you're a seasoned scholar or new to biblical studies, this episode offers valuable insights to enrich your understanding and practice of faith in everyday life.

Transcript

[Kohelet]

Foreign.

[Brent Billings]

This is the Bayw Podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today I'm with Josh Bosse and El Grover Fricks to sharpen the axe with our friend Kohelet.

[Kohelet]

Indeed. Do we have a juicy episode for you today. Better to share with than Al Woohoo. But as always, before we get into this, we have a little. A little exercise to do. Right, guys? We all know what I'm talking about.

[Brent Billings]

Absolutely.

[Josh Bosse]

Totally.

[Brent Billings]

A dire warning.

[Kohelet]

A dire warning.

[Brent Billings]

Maybe not dire. Probably not too dire.

[Kohelet]

Well, with this episode, the stakes get raised in this chapter, all right? And we have some very bloody consequences, as our little opening phrase might have intimated. So yes, perhaps this is dire. Who knows? Only you can be the judge of that listener. But we have to remember context. That's a big thing that we care about. And what is the context of this book? It is a weird little book of philosophy, and there are some pitfalls there for us as Westerners, we love philosophy because it's so abstract and thinker y and objective and disconnected from, you know, measly human experience. But this is not that kind of book of philosophy. This is very grounded in human experience. And it is through the lens of human experience and through material, grounded metaphors that all of the reasoning of COLA is worked out. And we have to remember that, especially because she is coming at this from an individualist lens, but not our kind of individualism, a radical individualism that grew out of a context that is not individualistic and therefore has very different assumptions. So we need to remember that, especially in this chapter, because this chapter in particular, there is a lot of proverb like utterances. And as we've seen before, Qohelet will use these, sometimes ironically, sometimes with the intention of using two contradictory parables or proverbs to elucidate attention. So we have to keep that all in mind, otherwise this will just sound like, you know, just like the book of proverbs, like, hey, here's just a bunch of good advice. And we need to keep an eye on the fact that Qohelet is doing something bigger and that we need to hear her in that context. And that's not how I usually go through my spiel, but that's good. Enough with that, Brent. Let's read the first couple verses here.

[Brent Billings]

As dead flies give perfume a bad smell, so a little folly outweighs wisdom and honor. The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left. Even as fools walk along the road, they Lack sense and show everyone how stupid they are. If a ruler's anger rises against you, do not leave your post. Calmness can lay great offenses to rest.

[Kohelet]

Man, what an eclectic little group here. And on a pashat level, if we're just looking at these as proverbs, don't really seem to be all that connected. We have this thing about foolishness versus wisdom with the dead flies and all that. And then something about going to the left and going to the right and walking on the road, and then you're with a ruler and he's mad at you. This is kind of just all over the place.

[Josh Bosse]

Humongous. Hasn't been there.

[Brent Billings]

Dead flies in your perfume. We all know what that's like.

[Josh Bosse]

It's just oil, though. Try to go on a walk and then a ruler, spirit of a ruler against you. I hate that. Ruining the hike.

[Kohelet]

So let's take these images one at a time, because we start off here kind of with a very similar sentiment to how the last chapter ended, which, I know you weren't here for this, L. But it basically boiled down to, you know, wisdom is so powerful, you know, it can even thwart armies. Yet a little bit of sin, a little. A little bit of foolishness, it can send the whole thing tumbling down just as easily. So there's this tension there. And this verse in particular calls back to an earlier chapter in Qohelet. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, that was the last episode you were on when we were going over chapter seven. And you know, the good name, good reputation is better than good ointment, good oil. And here we have this image of oil again, except now it's gone rancid, it's stinky, it's ruined, all because of one little dead fly in there or maybe multiple flies. But either way, these little things corrupting this larger thing. And again, we have to understand this in context. This is not like some general principle. This is specifically talking about the idea of a good name. That even if you have a good reputation, let's say, if you're, let's say, caught sleeping with your neighbor's wife, that can cause people to distrust you in all sorts of things that have nothing to do with adultery or anything like that, make people distrust you in business practices or whether you're telling the truth to them or not, all sorts of other things. So we understand that intuitively. That kind of makes sense, I think. Right. But it is also interesting that Qohelet is choosing to call us back to the idea that she praised Mightily that look at death, look at the people's legacies and what exists past death. Death being one of these big obstacles for Colette to wrestle against in trying to understand wisdom more deeply. So to now bring a challenge to that, like even that even that can be ruined by just a little nasty thing. And there's nothing necessarily implying that it has to be something that you did to ruin a reputation or the good name of even a larger group, which I think is something that we can definitely see on display in modern church culture. But we don't need to get into that because there's more going on here. But I do think, to return to the point, it's pretty significant that Kohelet is kind of calling that into question now. And not just that, when it says a little foolishness, at least in my translation, a little foolishness is more potent or weighty than mine translates this wisdom and honor. But it can also be understood the word for honor, kavod, means to be heavy. I think actually one of the. I think the JPS translates that as massive wisdom, which I thought was a fun turn of phrase. Yeah, yeah, you can have massive wisdom and just a little foolishness can undermine all of that.

[Josh Bosse]

Your galaxy brain.

[Kohelet]

Yeah.

[Josh Bosse]

I like Kavod is often translated glory, which often I lean away from because it's so like Christianese. But I like the weight of it. But I'm that a little foolishness, even if you have, like, glorious majesty, even then just one little fly.

[Kohelet]

And, you know, there's probably a couple biblical characters we could point to something very much like that sort of situation. But where does Qohelet take this idea? Because again, this is kind of playing off an older idea and dovetailing that with the previous chapter and this tension between the power of wisdom, but its ability to be undermined by things like sin and foolishness. So what do we make of this? The very next verse. And Elle, I'd love your perspective on this in terms of, obviously, there's a lot of symbolism between right and left, and I know Marty's talked about that a lot with regards to Passover. I'm not sure how much of that is on the podcast proper, but I know that teaching is out there about the distinction between left and right hands and what that means. But also in Robert Alter's translation, because the word that in your translation, Brent meant inclined, this translation I'm looking at has directs him. That word isn't there. It just literally says, his heart is to his right, his heart is to his left. And alter seems to use this as a. Like, you have your heart, your mind, your brain. Like, if it's on your left, assuming right hand dominance, that's like, oh, it's in my other pocket. Oh, it's kind of awkward to pull out versus, like, oh, I have it right at my dominant hand, ready to apply to the situation. Like, the wise person is ready to actually think about what's in front of them. And the foolish person's like, oh, I don't gotta think today, do I? I'm not ready for that. Anyway, that's the vibe I was getting off his translation. What are your thoughts on all this?

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah, I think it's spot on that you separated this little pricope into these first four verses, because they do totally go together. And on that specific issue. Yeah, weird syntax, very poetic. But the heart of the wise is in his right hand is how I translate that. The heart of the kessel. The fool is in his left. And for me, what I'm thinking of with right and left is about. Reminds me of Marty's teaching on Sermon on the Mount. Your left is your wiping hand, right. So it's not the one you're leading with. And so for me, like, your right hand is. Is the one that you lead with, that you reach out and shake people's hands with. It's relational, it's authentic, it's vulnerable. Right. The heart of the wise is in his right hand. It's not something that he's like holding behind him in his back pocket, being like, don't look over here.

[Kohelet]

Right.

[Josh Bosse]

And then in the next verse, heart comes back, which gets translated away, which is a crime.

[Kohelet]

Yes.

[Josh Bosse]

But again, in the path of the fool walks. He lacks heart. He says to all that he is a fool.

[Kohelet]

Yes, just.

[Josh Bosse]

Just fascinating leadership lessons from Kohelet here. You know, leading with the heart in front of you and not lacking it or not hiding it. Fascinating.

[Kohelet]

Yes. And on this note. Yeah, the. The word there is heart. You know, again, we love to translate heart away from it being the heart, because surely that. Yes, they didn't mean heart there, but. Yeah, no, it's his heart. And that word lacking there. I've seen this come up in the early chapters of Kohelet, but Alter translates this as basically like absentmindedness.

[Josh Bosse]

Interesting.

[Kohelet]

Yeah. And it kind of flows to me a little bit with the image because we have for a long time, this verse puzzled me, but the more I think about it, thinking of him being absent minded, it's like, okay, you're walking on a road you kind of don't have to think about where you're going. Right. Even in modern times, we have cars and they're more difficult to operate than just walking. But a lot of times if you're walking the same route or driving on the same route to and from work or whatever, people will just drift off, zone out. And all of a sudden you're like, oh, how did I get home? I didn't even have to think about it. I just followed the path that I knew. And so it's like walking along a road is relatively easy. You just follow the road. And so I feel like maybe the image here is that the fool is so absent minded or so lacking in his heart that it's obvious to everyone. I don't know whether he's wandering off the road by accident or just all of a sudden it's looking around like, oh wait, which way should I go? And it's just like, how can you not know where you're going, buddy? Obviously you're somewhere else. So that's where on just that image level, the idea of absentmindedness kind of made sense to me intuitively. But that word haser there, which means to lack. Yeah. Cause I know the way that was used. I think back in chapter one where he talks about what was wanting can't be counted. It has more of the sense of kind of incrementally losing things, at least to me. It doesn't feel like there's just an absence.

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah. I'd have to push back against alter a little bit potentially in that.

[Brent Billings]

Oh baby, here we go. Let's do it.

[Josh Bosse]

I mean, it's not the first time, it won't be the last though. I love, I love Bobby and I'm grateful for Bobby also. Some of his choices are different ones than I would make. And that's normal and healthy and something that we should all have, even with people we love and esteem.

[Brent Billings]

Absolutely.

[Kohelet]

Oh yeah.

[Josh Bosse]

But khasar, like Psalm 23, most famous use of it. I have no Khasar. Right. So it's like, lord is my shepherd, I have no absentmindedness. I mean, that would be nice.

[Kohelet]

He was saying that specifically with Khasar of the, of the lev of the heart, like the lacking heart as a phrase he was translating that way.

[Josh Bosse]

Sure. But if it most basically is just lack, then it feels like an importation to me to say lacking heart means being absent minded. And of course I'm coming with my own biases and uploading. Like what does heart mean? And that's brought That's a big discussion. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, for sure. But to lack heart to me, I don't want to, like, put more layers on that cake. It's already good. Like, if we're trying to be, like, what, me? No. I don't want anything. I don't desire anything. I don't have any plans here. Like, everybody knows that. You do.

[Kohelet]

Yes.

[Josh Bosse]

And so you are basically just announcing, like, your foolishness. If we either try to hide our real intentions and our hopes and our desires and our dreams and our plans, or if we just say that we don't have any, when obviously everybody does. We all do.

[Kohelet]

You know, when. I don't know if this happens to other people, I'm really bad at directions and getting around. And so sometimes, like, if I'm. Especially if I'm in a place I'm not familiar with at all, like, I'll get out of my car and, like, start walking and then realize I've, like, started going the wrong way, and then I just have to, like, stop and turn around and go the opposite way. And that's so embarrassing. Even though everyone around me is a complete stranger, it's like admitting to everyone, like, hey, I don't know what I'm doing. I am a fool. Look at me. Look at the fool. I am now. Just turning around and going the opposite direction. Yeah, I like that.

[Brent Billings]

That's right. You got to pull your phone out and then hold it up to your head like you just got a call, then turn around.

[Josh Bosse]

Wow. The heart of Brent is in his left hand.

[Brent Billings]

I mean, what's worse, the deception or the embarrassment?

[Josh Bosse]

The. Definitely one of those is morally coded in the other. But the spirit of the Lord has revealed to me that I am walking the wrong way. What wonderful clarity. Thank you, Lord. What a chance for repentance. Walking it out, returning to my path.

[Brent Billings]

There you go.

[Josh Bosse]

Okay. But I'm stoked about this last verse here. Spirit of the ruler rises over your post. Don't rest.

[Kohelet]

This, I think, is where it kind of takes everything into a new. A new dimension. Because we can follow the track of the past couple verses. Like, okay, we're talking about wisdom and foolishness. Not anything too crazy or out of place. And just to put a pin in it, I feel like what this is building to is the way that, like, even just the simple aspects of how you live your life will give evidence to the people around you of whether you're a fool or not. Like, you can't. To your point, El, you can try and hide it. But you can't actually really hide it. It's kind of obvious. But yeah, when we get into verse four here, this is the one where it's like, wait, how did we get here? Were we walking on the road to the king? Like, what. What is the connective tissue here? And this is where I think that it all makes sense. If we catch the Rem is here. Does this image of a ruler that is angry at you and it causes you to get up from your seat and that ends up causing problems. And if maybe if you had been composed, if you had kept your cool, things would have gone differently. This is a little bit obscure, so I won't no demerits if anyone doesn't get this.

[Josh Bosse]

I mean, I live in Genesis world. So you've got Paro is quite displeased with his slaughterer, whether that's however you want to translate that, and his cup holder. And there's a lot of conversation in the Hebrew about their post there that they're being restored to their setting. So that's what sparks for me. But I'm excited to hear what you have to say.

[Kohelet]

And, you know, Qohelet is so chockablock with Yosef Remazim that that is such a good guess. And in fact, it is even partially right because the Ramez this is actually referring to itself has tons of Yosef Ramazim, and that is in the Book of Esther. This is Haman.

[Josh Bosse]

Okay. I was thinking that for servants upon horses later.

[Kohelet]

Yes. Okay.

[Josh Bosse]

Don't let my gold star.

[Kohelet]

Josh. Well, I'm glad. Good job reading ahead, doing your homework, even though I gave you no time to do that at all. And for clocking that. But yes, remember what happens when the final confrontation happens and King Achashverush is furious at Haman and he gets up to go walk it off and he's, you know, doing whatever. And while he's gone, what happens? Haman freaks out, says he's terrified, and then he starts groveling. He starts. He's falling over Esther, asking her to get him out of this.

[Josh Bosse]

We hope he's groveling. I don't think he's groveling, but.

[Kohelet]

Okay, well, we could read that in a number of ways, but either way, he does not stay sitting and composed. He gets up and in one way or another accosts Esther. And when the king comes back, he is under the impression that Haman is sexually assaulting Esther. And you know, not to say that like, oh, if only Haman had regained his composure, he could have Had a good end. Like, obviously we don't want Haman to have a good ending, but had Haman kept his composure, you know, who knows, Maybe he could have talked his way out of it. Certainly having the king come back in and saying, what are you doing? Like, that's it's over for you. At that point, there is no coming back. We can also kind of flip this as well into a little bit of the mirror image of Haman in Mordecai, who is also someone who has someone above him, angry at him. Except in this case, it's Haman. And instead of capitulating or getting freaked out, he just kind of keeps his head on straight and doesn't blink, doesn't back down, doesn't flinch, and things end up turning out okay. This is the driving Ramez of the whole chapter, and we will see a lot of things. But what's interesting to me is that the primary person we're seeing this through is Hamon. Like, that's kind of weird, right? Like, we're being asked to kind of take on the perspective of Hamon. But I think that actually makes sense of a couple verses that would otherwise be pretty confusing.

[Josh Bosse]

One last thing in this verse, one last thing. I'm looking at these different translations, and I'm saying calmness, calmness comforts, great offenses or great mistakes, whatever you want to go with. The word there is Rafa. So it's healing. And I would like to just argue for the briefest of moments that healing is a lot more work than just, like, being stoic, right? Than just being, like, don't worry about it, boss. Everything's actually okay. Why didn't you know that? That's like, a very different post than, like, okay, I see that there has been a problem. Let me do the work of healing here, which takes time and effort, and that will comfort the great mistake. Not just like, okay, yeah, I'm just gonna chill and everything will be fine. Just feel different to me.

[Kohelet]

That's a really great angle. Yeah. The root there is absolutely healing. And I wonder too, you know, if this is kind of also referencing, like, maybe in anger you have been struck at and therefore are, you know, wounded. And if this is like, you know, hey, just. Just heal, don't get back, don't run away. Just hang out there and. And recover.

[Josh Bosse]

Fish the fly out. Right? If it's paralleling verse one, like, what do you do if you have a fly? Oh, no. Well, get it out, figure it out, make it better.

[Kohelet]

Yeah, no, that's a. That's A really great point. And it's a powerful point too, because the situation you're put in is like the person mad at you isn't just like random people on the Internet, it's the king. And to consider, like, yeah, you know, even. Or actually, wait, no, the word there isn't king, it's just ruler, I think. Yeah. Moshell. Oh, man, we could. Okay, can't get sidetracked by that. Anyway, that is El, a great, great addition. Thanks for adding that. And with that, with that healing word, let's press on in the text and see where we're going with this whole Haman.

[Josh Bosse]

Amen.

[Brent Billings]

There is an evil I have seen under the sun, the sort of error that arises from a ruler. Fools are put in many high positions while the rich occupy the low ones. I have seen slaves on horseback while princes go on foot like slaves.

[Kohelet]

Very interesting. So, as El eluded to earlier, some more strong Hamon vibes, slaves riding on horses and princes walking like slaves on the land has very the. It's one of those things where just the image instantly puts into mind, you know, Hamon walking in front of the horse that he thought he was going to ride on top of, but instead it's Mordecai, his most hated enemy. What's interesting too is that, like I said before, you know, Haman is kind of a weird person to kind of have us see things through the perspective of. But we've talked so much in this series about Yosef and all the references there. As I alluded to earlier, Esther itself has a lot of references to Yosef and specifically Haman is kind of a dark parallel universe. He's the evil Yosef. And if you just think about it for a little bit, it kind of clicks. He's the second in command. There's some linguistic connections too. I don't want to get too much into that, but there are a lot of overlaps there. So we'll also see some Yosef connections in here. But I think there is a lot, especially in the imagery here that points directly at Haman. And I think that makes a little bit more sense of some of the language here when we look at it specifically, because this seems to be Qohelet talking about the topsy turvy world. Oh, everything we heard in verse nine, the race isn't to the swift. You'd expect that the fastest person always wins the race, but that doesn't always happen. You expect that the strongest guy always wins the fight and the smartest guy always gets paid the most. But Those things don't always happen. And this is kind of going even more exaggerated into that kind of betrayal of expectations. But some of these expectations are a little bit problematic. Specifically the idea of like oh no, there's slaves riding on horses and princes walking in front of them. Oh no, we can't have that. Those slaves better get back on the ground where they belong and get the prince up where he belongs. Or even contrasting foolishness being set in exalted places and knowing Qohelet. If we're going to see the opposite of that. What's opposite of foolishness? It's wisdom, right? But instead we have the rich sitting in low places. And for those who don't remember all the details of Esther, one of the unique characteristics of Haman is that he is extremely rich. He is so rich that basically that's how his whole proto holocaust comes about is he tells the king like, hey, I'll pay you just mind numbing amounts of money if you let me do whatever I want with the Jewish people. And so this sense of him being angry that there's a fool exalted, which my reading of Esther, I think Akash Verush is a little bit of a dumb. Dumb, that's just how I read it. I cannot be convinced otherwise. At best he's good at reading the room and knowing what stuff is popular and unpopular. But he is not a smart man. He kind of just does whatever the last person he talked to said to do. He's not doing a lot there. And so I think in verse six here foolishness being set in exalted places while the rich sit in humble places kind of almost reveals Haman's own unself awareness. And he's just like, I'm in such a humble low place having to submit to this really idiotic king even though you know he's has, you know, no self awareness of like you're the second in command, dude, like you're not in a, in a humble place.

[Josh Bosse]

I like that because it feels like a theme to me in the whole scroll of Esther that there are, there's just bad advice constantly of people. Just like you're saying with Achashvarush, he's surrounded by people who give him bad ideas and he's like, yeah, that makes sense. But to me that brings us back to verses one through four of like, he doesn't even know where his heart is, right? He doesn't have intentionality, he doesn't have plans, dreams or desires. He's just like, yeah, that sounds great. Let's get rid of my wife. Sure, man. Like that does make sense. I am worried about your wives, too. Yeah, totes. Totes, bro.

[Kohelet]

And then immediately after that, he's like, oh, wait, now I need a new wife. What the heck? Oh, shoot. If only I could have seen this coming.

[Josh Bosse]

Right, Right. And so is. Is Kohelet pointing us toward. We think that sticking our heart in our pocket is the noble thing to do, is the leader thing to do. And yet it makes us vulnerable to bad advice. People who think they know what we should be doing, and we go along with it, and then everything's upside down from where it should be.

[Kohelet]

Very interesting. And this is also, I think, kind of gets back to some of the undercurrents in verse five. The evil of a mistake proceeding from the ruler, which the word there for mistake or error, whatever it says in the other translations, is the word that it's used all the time in the Torah to talk about unintentional sin. And one of the big categories of unintentional sin is like, oh, what if you're doing the wrong thing, but it's because the priest made a mistake and told you, oh, do this, or the king said, do this. And you're just, you know, you're just doing what you were told, but it was not what God wants. And so now you're technically sinning, but you aren't doing it on purpose. It's someone else made a mistake. So that, you know, fits, like, just squarely in what's being talked about here. But I wonder, El, if you see any other layers in there?

[Josh Bosse]

I don't think so. I'm seeing more Haman stuff later in this, in the next couple verses. So I'm looking forward to uncovering those. Their little archaeologist, Rames Duster.

[Kohelet]

But, yeah, the one thing that is very clear here is that there is. I want to believe that Qohelet is such a good writer that there is like a double layer here talking about foolishness. Because if you're thinking about Esther and foolish people, yeah, I think Khashvarosh is like the poster boy for that. But I think that there is. As we go through that story and get more into Haemon's mind, we see that he has a lot of, you know, his own kind of inferiority complex. And honestly, this I feel like man El is just constantly being vindicated. Cause that idea of fools, like, trying to hide their intentions and keeping it out of sight, like that right left dichotomy of, like, the left is, you know, it's something you keep hidden away. It's a little bit shameful. It's something you don't want exposed, necessarily. And that's kind of how he is. He, like, goes home, and there he's able to speak honestly to his wife and his friends, and again, gets some bad advice, and they end up being like, oh, dang, dude, looks like things aren't going well for you.

[Josh Bosse]

Even in Hebrew just means I will be silent and poor. So obviously that's not, like, his actual name, but that's how it's been recorded Hebraically. But that silence, you know, are we focusing on healing the issue? Are we focused on pulling the flies out of the oil, or are we focused on, like, stuffing our heart into our back pocket?

[Kohelet]

Yeah. And, you know, the more I think about it, the more I like that image of, like, oh, hey, why don't you just pull the fly out? Because, you know, regardless of I'm not a perfumer or, you know, proficient in knowing, you know, how flies and oil interact on a chemical level, but I assume it's not instantaneous.

[Josh Bosse]

Sure.

[Kohelet]

And even looking in, Rashi has some interesting notes that dive into, like, the old French and some language about how that happens, but it's like, that doesn't happen immediately. And I wonder if maybe part of this image is that we would maybe know if we were closer culturally to what Nkohelet is talking about. Maybe it's this idea of, like, yeah, you should just pull the fly out. If you leave it there to rot, then it will cause everything to go nasty. But not if you respond to it immediately and pull it out. Maybe that's part of this. Maybe there's an aspect of this that has to do with festering and letting these things just go and go and go. So, yeah, man, I'm really warming up to that, I guess. Oh, man, what a great second layer to this. Yeah, so we have kind of this double layer of maybe referencing Achashverosh. But Achashverosh is the foolish object in Haman's mind. But I think the brilliance of Qohelet is my read of this is that she is also showing us that there is a really inherent foolishness in Hamon, which, as you've been pointing out, El partially has to do with him trying to play this game where, if you read Esther, it's very humorous, the degree to which it is so obvious to everyone that Haman wants to be king, at least from the perspective it's being written through. And it's just like he thinks he's playing this sneaky Game of Thrones game. But no, it's obvious to everyone else, or at least to Mordecai and Esther. And the only reason he's probably getting away with it is because Achashverosh is also very stupid, which kind of adds a comedic angle to it, which is probably important because if you take that away, it's just a pretty horrific book about awful politics. But to kind of give us this insight into how we can be, in trying to be too smart, in trying to outmaneuver and hide this and that, we end up kind of creating this ferment, this fetid, even more powerful foolishness that is just obvious to everyone. Anywho, with that, as you said, we have a couple more images coming up that bring an even finer point to the Haman. Ramez Brent, why don't you keep pushing with us here?

[Brent Billings]

Whoever digs a pit may fall into it. Whoever breaks through a wall may be bitten by a snake. Whoever quarries stones may be injured by them. Whoever splits logs may be endangered by them. If the axe is dull and its edge unsharpened, more strength is needed. But skill will bring success. If a snake bites before it is charmed, the charmer receives no fee. Words from the mouth of the wise are gracious, but fools are consumed by their own lips. At the beginning their words are folly, at the end they are wicked. Madness and fools multiply words. No one knows what is coming. Who can tell someone else what will happen after them. The toil of fools wearies them. They do not know the way to town.

[Kohelet]

We got a hefty chunk here. And again, kind of rapid fire, proverb style. Just proverb, proverb, proverb, proverb, proverb. So right off the bat, obviously we have just a string of images of the classic being hoisted by your own petard. You dig a pit, you lay a trap, and oops, you're the one who steps in it. Humorous situation. And of course, this is exactly what happens to Hamon. He sets up a giant gallows. It's usually translated as. Although I've heard it's probably not that exactly. But he creates this large thing to kill Hamon or to kill Mordecai with. And at the end, Hamon is the one who is killed on it. Irony of ironies. We have these images, and then in verse 10, it seems at first like we're kind of continuing down the same line. We've been talking about digging pits, quarrying stone, splitting logs, and now we're about to talk about an axe, it's like, okay, I'm tracking with you. But again, Qohelet kind of spins this off at a perpendicular angle. Now we're talking about that. The ax that hasn't been sharpened, you're going to need to. To swing harder. You're gonna have to exert more effort to get it to cut through the wood. And this makes sense again, intuitively. It kind of scans. But what's the point being made here? We were just talking about how the work that you do can fall on your own head. Classic Heyman scenario. But now we're talking about how much effort you're putting into it. What's the angle? He's. And this is where I think the last line of that verse really brings it out. And I absolutely hate how your translation translated it where it was something about.

[Brent Billings]

Like, skill, skill will bring success.

[Kohelet]

Yes. And I hate it because it's like, first of all, the word in there is wisdom. It's like, why would you obscure the word wisdom?

[Josh Bosse]

Bizarre.

[Kohelet]

Yeah. In Cohelit of all books, we also have a repetition of one of our famous words, yitron. That word translated as advantage or reward. And so here it's saying the yitron, the overabundance, the overflow of a skill, or being skilled is actually in wisdom. Like, if you have a skill, let's say you're just naturally very physically strong and agile and whatnot. But if you're going into a gym and doing exercises with just the most awful form possible, like, you're gonna put yourself in a bad situation, you're gonna need to go to the hospital because you, you know, just dislocated your entire spine or something. Wow. Yeah. So that's where, you know, Kohelet is kind of making a case here. Like having a skill by itself, even if you're the best in the world at it, if you don't have wisdom in using it, it's going to require more effort. Like, it's. It's inefficient. Right. Like. Like an unsharpened ax. You have this ax, you can just chop through wood all day long, but if you don't have the wisdom to actually maintain it, then you're doing harder work. And similarly, in the following verse, if you have the skill to be able to charm snakes and no snake can ever bite you, but you don't do your snake charming thing and the snake bites you, what was the use of that skill? Again, an ironic reversal. But. But again, to the point is the Yatron is The advantage in the skill, or is it wisdom? That is the soul of what makes that skill useful, I think is the general kind of pashat point that's being made. But, El, do you see anything deeper here? We also have a lot of weird words, and I wonder if you have any insight.

[Josh Bosse]

We've got fun stuff like whoever smashes through a fence will be bitten by a serpent. Very Kool Aid man energy. But for me, the way I see this little section is that it's setting us up and it has an answer and it's starting to ask a question. So if our opening premise is stop trying to be stoic and get up, do the work, pull the fly out, she then says qohelet, then says, you gotta make sure if you're going to do that, that you have the right tools. Right. If the ax is blunt, if he does not make it light, he will require heroic force. This word give it is like the biggest, biggest strength word advantage. Kosher has to all be kosher. Which, by the way, that's an Esther pole. That's the only other time we see kosher in Tanakh is an Esther and wisdom. So it's like, okay, I want to go about the work to make things right, to pull the fly out. How do I do that? I need good tools. What are my good tools? The answer is in the next section. It's how you use your tongue. Your tool is your tongue. And how do the wise use their tongue and how do the foolish use their tongue? And that's our answer for how we negotiate when the ruler, the spirit of the ruler has risen over our post.

[Kohelet]

That's really interesting because that's the phrase talking about. The snake charmer, as it's called, is literally a BAAL halashon, master of the tongue.

[Josh Bosse]

Precisely. If that helps my translation, surely the serpent who is not charmed will bite. So the master of the tongue, the words of the mouth of the wise are patronage. The lips of the kessel will swallow him, beginning with the words of his mouth. So. And then it talks about how his praise is just like what comes after his mouth. It. It's. I think your translation, Brent said, like madness or something. I'm 95% sure.

[Kohelet]

Oh, yes. This. This is what we talked about the last time you were on here.

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah, exactly. So it's just praise, but it's wicked praise. Right? So beginning words, the mouth of the kessel, the after of his mouth is wicked praise. So it's highl. The difference between economic patronage we've talked about A bajillion times on the famous podcast, but it's seeing somebody and saying, I want to sponsor you. Here is some money. You're now a part of my family. Please do these things. I want to equip you and bring you into my network. It's this huge part of their social system, and the wise actually do that. They see the potential in others and they invest in them and they give them the resources that they need to be able to accomplish the things that they're asking them to do. And the Kessel doesn't do any of that actual work. Right. Because patronage is work. What he just does is wicked praise. Right. He's saying his words are a great many. No human knows what will be and what will be after him. Who can even proclaim it? He doesn't know where he's going. He's just talking. So wicked praise. Right. Oh, I love what you're doing here. Oh, blah, blah, blah. You know, you can imagine what that sounds like.

[Kohelet]

So wait, I have a question. I have a question. So this patronage thing, is that all coming from the word.

[Josh Bosse]

Is the word for patronage? Yes.

[Kohelet]

Okay, okay, okay. So that is. And I want to connect some things here because I love where this is going. So the word khen is most often translated as the word grace. Right, Right.

[Josh Bosse]

But that's what it is in Hebrew and in Greek, charis.

[Kohelet]

And yeah, no, I love that. I am learning today. But at the same time, this is making a lot of sense, especially given some of the themes of Esther. So, yeah, let's get into that, because we have this. The fool we might not expect. When we first jump into the Book of Esther, it seems like there's an obvious fool in the room, but the bigger fool is Haman. And what we end up seeing. And I love this connection to patronage. Haman has a ton of money. He could be giving out patronage left and right. What is so interesting is that consistently throughout Esther, what makes Mordecai and Esther very successful is they have tons of relationships with people. They are, like, friends with all the servants. And I don't think that is just like, oh, they hang out and talk. It's probably also connected to this idea of hen of patronage, of, like, taking care of each other. And that is how their communication is facilitated, how they. You know, the whole thing that gets Mordecai in the king's good graces is that he overheard someone was able to, you know, make this connection and that connection. And specifically when Esther is, like, asking the people to fast with her like, it emphasizes, like, Mordecai's connections, not just even in the city, but with the diasporic Jewish population throughout Persia. Like, there is a huge emphasis on how connected they are to the people and the community around them. And this is, again, also, like, at the root, tied into how these Jewish people are navigating the world of power in exile. And how do you use that power? And then on the other hand, we have Haman who, like, at the end of the book, literally, his own wife is like, yeah, you're screwed, dude. Like, no one is loyal to Haman. He has nobody. And this case you're making, El, that is piling up here about that. The wise are using their words in this mode of patronage. Both, I would assume, in terms of what they say, they're not like, I feel like this is such a good contrast to the other thing you elucidated with the left hand, and it being, like, hiding your heart and keeping your motives hidden. Like, when that's how you're living, you can't actually connect to the people around you. The relationships you're building are not real. They're based on lies. The other person doesn't actually know you. And at a certain point, that will become obvious to everyone, even if you're the one in the room, the only one in the room unaware of it.

[Josh Bosse]

Right.

[Kohelet]

And I just love how all this is coming together.

[Josh Bosse]

And Esther had that patronage modeled to her because she was taken care of by the eunuch in the house. Right. Who picked her out and said, you, I'm going to give you all the resources you need, a definite picture of patronage. And so that relationship building, that's not just empty praise, but has this economic and familial handle to it, is apparently how we can go about the work of healing.

[Kohelet]

Yeah.

[Josh Bosse]

Isaiah 58, rebuild, restore the wall, rebuild the ancient ruins. Do all the things you guys.

[Kohelet]

Absolutely. I love the kind of buildup of these, like, two images of how we use our words. And I think this mirrors kind of the image Kohelet used before about the dull acts. And you're having to multiply effort. Where words from the mouth of a wise person are gracious, they're giving away good things, whether that's the actual words you say or also in this system of actual material support. They're saying things, they're giving good things. It's as simple as that. On the other hand, we have the lips of a fool, consume him. The beginning is foolishness, the end is, we could even say in praise of evil. Like it starts with just stuff that's kind of just whack in general. And at the end you're like, oh, you were talking about just like, yes, we'll be able to murder all these people or whatever it is, or in the other sense that you took it like just kind of empty, malicious flattery that's like maybe trying to ingratiate someone to you, but is, you know, it's not real praise. And then we have, you know, kind of after giving this image of how destructive the words of a fool are in verse 14, yet the fool multiplies words, they just keep on talking. And there's this kind of image of very cohelit image of like fruitlessly just trying to talk yourself out of a situation, just trying to continue to manipulate and work things out to your advantage. And they can't see like that they are just making the case against them even stronger and sealing their fate more and more. Which is again, such a Haman image.

[Josh Bosse]

Which also, not to get too literary here, but the text painting, the one line about the wise is one line. The words of the mouth of the wise are patronage.

[Kohelet]

Yes.

[Josh Bosse]

And then we have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 lines about the words of the castle. Right, right.

[Kohelet]

Beautiful.

[Josh Bosse]

You just get swallowed up and. But it doesn't lead to anything. Like both can include kindness. Praise can still sound kind, Patronage can be kind. But the difference is, is there an economic tie, a familial tie, an actual active tie at the end of it?

[Kohelet]

I'm glad you said those two things together because I think a lot of times, you know, when we think about economic ties, they're not. They're, you know, weighted down with obligational, hierarchical. It's not a friendly situation. But in this context, these patronage networks, this economic system, it is synonymous with or at least heavily overlaps with family. That is what belonging means in that context. So it's. Yeah, just so simple and straightforward. Hey, the words of the wise, it's just good things and they mean what they say. There's no complex hall of mirrors about it. And the fool is running on this old hamster wheel trying to spin straw into gold. And not only is it wearying, it's also damaging. And I love. And I wonder if you have a different take on this. If there's an image that I'm not seeing here, but the idea of he's multiplying words and then it says, no person knows what will happen and who can tell him what will come after him? It's like the fool is just talking, talking, talking. And you're like, hey, hey, just shut up. Just stop talking. You're getting yourself into trouble. And the fool's like, oh, really? You know what's going to happen in the future? Oh, you can tell me exactly what's going to happen. Okay, why don't you tell me exactly what's going to happen? Okay, fine. You win. You win. Dig your own grave. He's just revving up his engine and driving straight for a brick wall and won't be convinced otherwise.

[Josh Bosse]

I'm thinking more like. I think that's a totally good image. I'm, of course, a person. In my particular context, it feels like if you go to ministry conferences. I went to one recently and I enjoyed it and it was wonderful. And also, it's a lot of people who aren't necessarily planning on putting their generosity and their great resources with what they're saying their values are. You know, it's like, are we going to put the money in the. In the. You know, are we actually going to walk this out or are we just like, you guys, we've got to figure it out. We've just got to figure out how to solve this problem of whatever it is, polarization or society or whatever. We've got to do it. Well, how are we actually going to walk to that city? Walk to that Eden? I don't know. We need more seminars. More seminars?

[Kohelet]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's that. Man, I really like your read on this because following that up with the image of the fool not knowing how to go to a city, it recalls the image of the fool on the road earlier. And this idea of kind of. Of leadership that is obviously. And maybe the obviousness of it isn't even the point, but just it's doomed because it doesn't know where it's going, essentially. And here we see that said just so explicitly. There isn't a end point for this. And not in a, like, hey, it's about the journey, not the destination. But in a, like, I am just moving things forward. I am turning on the machine and running it. Bigger purpose. Don't know what you're talking about.

[Josh Bosse]

Well, we'll fall into the fool category if we keep talking about too many words.

[Kohelet]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[Brent Billings]

I do have one question before we move on from this section, though. The snake thing is intriguing since it comes up twice. So I'm wondering if those two. Because they seem like they could be independent mentions, independent examples, but also just seems weird that there's two of them right there. But I'm also wondering what the nature of a snake charmer is, because I feel like the only image I have of that is just like that Hollywood. Yeah, Stereotypical street market panhandling sort of thing or whatever. Just like you're doing it to impress somebody to get them to give you money or whatever. But it kind of seems like this is more like a pest control sort of situation. What do I need to know about snake charming that I'm missing here to understand why that's even in there? Because it almost seems like it's not necessary.

[Josh Bosse]

I think it's talking about Book of James Weiss that we're playing with fire anytime we open our mouth. I would have to do, you know, 20 minutes of research to find out what the culture around snakes. And I know nothing about snakes. My son probably knows more about snakes than me, however. So it's saying, like, the uncharmed serpent will bite you. So the master of a tongue. Right?

[Brent Billings]

Sure, sure.

[Josh Bosse]

So that's all of us. We all have this thing in our mouths that can, you know, ruin our lives or not.

[Kohelet]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Okay, well, we'll leave it as a lingering question then. But I'm just curious about that. So we'll have to ask Lewis, I guess.

[Josh Bosse]

I guess.

[Kohelet]

And who knows? There is another parallel here with Fools on the Road. Maybe there's a chiastic structure here even. Who can.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kohelet]

Certainly a lot more to dig into. But let's keep chugging with the text here, okay?

[Brent Billings]

Woe to the land whose king was a servant and whose princes feast in the morning. Blessed is the land whose king is of noble birth and whose princes eat at a proper time for strength and not for drunkenness. Through laziness, the rafters sag because of idle hands, the house leaks. A feast is made for laughter, Wine makes life merry, and money is the answer for everything. Do not revile the king, even in your thoughts, or curse the rich in your bedroom, because a bird in the sky may carry your words and a bird on the wing may report what you say. Well, that's it, guys. That's the answer. Money. I didn't realize it was so straightforward.

[Kohelet]

So, yeah, a bit of a kind of change in scenery. But again with this Running Esther reference. Doesn't feel super out of place. It feels like we're kind of getting closer in the surface text to this subtextual thing. But let's just start off right away. The land whose king is a boy. That is not the right translation.

[Josh Bosse]

Boo.

[Kohelet]

Boo. The word there is naar, which I know, Ellis talked about at least multiple times on the podcast, because I remember even now, it's the lion sound. It's someone who's generally tends to be younger or is in some sort of subservient role. And it kind of is someone who is, you know, they're not supposed to, like, they kind of have an impetuous wild. Like, they're kind of still running around a little bit, which at least in my mind, kind of squares the two things. Like, they've. Either they're young and they've got all this crazy wild energy, or they're in a position that they aren't like the one in charge of decision making, so they can be a little bit looser and shoot from the hip or something like that. But the point that you don't want that kind of person being the one in charge of everything makes sense. And right after that, we have this image of princes feasting in the morning. And of course, if we're thinking Esther, this brings to mind the literal opening of the book where there's this, this insanely long festival just for the king to show off his wealth and get drunk with all the people he wants to impress. So, yeah, definitely, that is not the kind of king you want. El, do you have any thoughts on this? Anything that you're seeing? Because I feel like you've been having some real heat this episode, and I don't want to say a bunch of stuff and then have you be like, actually, here's the better point. Like, let's just get to the good stuff. Are you seeing anything here?

[Josh Bosse]

I think you got it, friend.

[Kohelet]

Okay, now here's my question, because verse 17, where we get the blessed is the land whose king is a son of nobles or nobility. Now, previously I kind of was like, is this more of the kind of flip, like, oh, this is Haman's perspective. Haman's like, oh, we should have a better king than this. Someone like me. Me. The use of nobles here is a little bit troubling. However, with your introduction of the patronage idea, is this maybe referring to someone who is actually fulfilling that role and not just throwing wealth around profligately and partying?

[Josh Bosse]

Totally.

[Kohelet]

Is this the image of someone who is taking care of the people underneath them and is isn't partying just to get their kicks, but is just eating to have the strength to do their job?

[Josh Bosse]

Absolutely. The line there, the way I have it translated, is your commanders eat in the appointed time for heroism and not for drinking. So it still feels very foundationally economic. If God has given you resources of some kind, whether that's influence or economic resources. Resources. How are we pouring that out? Are we pouring that out to have a good time? Start off the have a big brunch, let's go get mimosas. Or are you. When you are bringing your khale, your. When you're bringing your force, your resources together, is it toward heroism? Gwer. That's the same word that we had before with the axe, that. That's what it requires to be able to use a blunt axe. So are you gathering people? Are you throwing parties just like you pointed out with cheshvurush? Are you doing that for the flex of it all and the fun time of it all, or because you're about to accomplish something? So the mighty men word, like David's mighty men.

[Kohelet]

Yeah, I love that. And as you're saying that, it kind of. For me at least, it kind of ends up a bit like, collapses the distinction that's been being played with between Achashverush and Haman, who wants to become Achash. And he looks different because he's scheming and doing all this awful stuff to try and get what he wants. And he has this inferiority complex, but he doesn't have anything he's actually trying to do with that. He just wants status for his own sake. So if he did attain that position, he would be just as aimless and foolish as Achashverush. And I think that's where we see this collapse back to like, hey, woe to the city or woe to the land whose king is like the. That you want someone who's actually gonna be taking care of people, take their job seriously, are not just using it as an excuse to party all the time. And I love that that image that evokes literally, in the beginning of Esther, this feast for the sake of laying out the king's grandeur is then paired with this image of a decrepit house that's falling apart and this image of laziness and idle hands and leaky roofs, which I wonder if, like, idle hands, like, if you kind of just put your hands on your tummy or whatever and clasp them, it kind of looks like a little leaky roof that water would get right into.

[Josh Bosse]

Wow.

[Kohelet]

And I feel like that, like, sucking the money out of it, sucking the grandeur out of it, and making it just look as pathetic on the outside as it really is on the inside, is really masterful. And what I love about this, too, is then it immediately follows that with what we would consider, like, the good version of the poem. Party, A meal for enjoyment, wine, making life joyful. And then we have this phrase, money is the answer to everything, which is again, like, a little has me cock my head to the side a little bit. Like, okay, wait, did I miss something there?

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Elle didn't seem to like it, but I look at. Basically every English translation has it the same way, so it doesn't seem controversial.

[Josh Bosse]

All right, all right, let me set it.

[Kohelet]

Well, well, well.

[Brent Billings]

Tell me what I'm missing.

[Josh Bosse]

Okay, so the word that sets up this picture that we have so we have an idea of feasting, right? Are you setting up your feast for your own glory? Are you setting up your feast in line with patronage? Because you're going to go do these beautiful things. The indolent impotence word. So you guys aren't even looking at what I'm looking at, so I'll read it. In indolent impotence, the beams sink. And lax hands. The house leaks. Bread is made for play. Wine makes joy in life. Silver answers all. So the. The thing that I am like about the bdb, the brown driver Briggs is one of, like, the big three in the Mount Rushmore, maybe the big four of resources that you use, lexicons that folks use. And the brown driver, Briggs pulls from the Arabic to define that word as. And I quote directly. So it's not really me, it's brown driver breaks you guys as stuck fast in coitus.

[Brent Billings]

So for which word?

[Josh Bosse]

For the beams sinking. Which, of course, that's what it's put with the house. Beams are sinking. And so house. The idea of a house isn't just like the physical mechanics of the house and your plumbing and everything. The house is building your legacy. It's building your mission. The bait off. Yeah, yeah. All of those images. And so if you're doing it for your own prestige and your own glory that you're throwing these feasts, which are social opportunities, they're connection networking opportunities. They're not just wealth flexes and you're not using it to bring play, joy, life, all of these things, then the Beth. Av, Right, The AV is operating in impotence. And silver, to me, it goes both ways. Silver answers all is how I would say that the syntax lays that out. It's not that silver is the answer. Yeah, silver is the answerer. And so this whole time we've had, like, how do you get the fly out of the ointment? You practice. Bring your heart with you. Don't forget your heart. Don't pretend that you don't want something. You use your economic resources for patronage, which includes joy and feasting at the appropriate time toward something. And Silver answers the question partially, of course. But Silver is at least part of the answerer to how do we fix stuff? We need resources to fix stuff. We can't fix these problems. Just all on vibe, all in our stoicism, all in our everything will be fine. And Silver also will answer the voice of Achashverush and Haman. Right. Silver also tries to say, hey, I can do that. Right? It says, I know how to fix what you have going on. If you are a kissel, if you're a fool who's hiding their heart and trying to accomplish something that you don't want to tell anybody about, and you're just heaping praise on people, people. Silver is also part of the answer, or seeks to answer it. So I think it's a truth that goes both ways. We need tools to rebuild, to put the world back together, to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem, Ezra and Nehemiah imagery there. Also, be careful because we'll feel like it's the answer to getting everybody to see how great we are, you know, or whatever it was motivating Haman, depending on your interpretation, man.

[Kohelet]

Okay.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. So, like, there's still a wise and foolish way to utilize the resources, basically, right?

[Kohelet]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Okay.

[Kohelet]

And kind of what I'm hearing here, to amend it slightly, I think, you know, yeah, we have this image of the foolish king and the kind of degradation that leads to, again, going back to, like, lack of patronage, lack of hen, lack of grace. Then, you know, you end up with your house in is leaky, like, there isn't anything else supporting it. And the good times aren't going to last forever. What happens when there's a famine or a revolt or this or that? It will just fall apart because there's nothing else supporting it. And this is then contrasted with, yeah, have a meal for enjoyment. Have a feast where people can drink wine and enjoy life. But the answer to the people is like, they need money. It's not about you hoarding it for yourself. The feast is also there to spread the wealth around. The feast is there to, like you said, also make these kinds of connections, strengthen those relationships. But the real answer to the question of, like, oh, how do I help my community? Give them money, give them resources, give them something like that. Don't, you know, like, that's fine. Hey, say you'll pray for them. Do pray for them. Keep them in your Thoughts and prayers, but also just help them out. I can't tell you how many times over the years I've seen all sorts of charitable organizations that have fun little gimmicks to get things to people in need. And it's like, you know what? As much as I resent a lot of the things in modern life, we sure made it easy to get, get money from here to there. Why can't we just give them the resources to take care of themselves? To me, when we talk about building community, and this especially reminds me of problems within the church because it brings me right back to Act 7, where we have like, oh, no, there's discrimination going on, right? And it's a real simple fix. They say, oh, hey, leaders from the community that has been facing discrimination here are a bunch of resources. You are free to take care of it in the way that works best for your community. We trust you. And that is really that kind of gracious use of resources. Even though we don't still have the same kind of patronage networks. And maybe we'd be better off if we did.

[Josh Bosse]

Certainly in some spaces we do still.

[Kohelet]

Yeah, that's true. That is true. But a lot of times we are very much interested in the money flowing in one direction only for resources to be going in one direction and remembering that, like, hey, when there's a problem, like, yeah, there's definitely times in life where obviously you have a friend who's going through a hard time. Like, yeah, words are probably going to be the most important thing. But also, like, yeah, they probably do.

[Josh Bosse]

Need help with groceries since you brought up Acts. Acts two, baby. The end of Acts two, we have the giving, the sharing of things that are in need, everything in common with one another. Which makes you think, like, oh, so they didn't play with the economic system of the time. They just kind of, you know, winged it and just lived on generosity. No, because later in that same little chunk of verses that we love so much, it also says that they extended patronage to those in their community. So they still, they still have their resources. You know, some of it is like, selling stuff is the problem, right? If we think of Ananias and Sapphira, they're selling stuff, stuff. And then what are they doing with that wealth but investing it back into the wider community, not just the community of the church either. So lots of little economic strategies, lots of little resource strategies. And of course, the good news is life and costs nothing. And also, we're trying to put the world back together. So, yeah, you could walk and Chew.

[Kohelet]

Gum and man, you know what? What a blessing you've been on this episode because this whole angle of hidden thoughts thoughts is so perfectly brought back to the center in verse 20. And again, yeah, bringing up Ananias and Sapphira and the Acts 2 church in your bedroom. Don't curse a king, don't curse a rich person. A bird might go and tell them. The scenario itself again feels kind of like, wait, aren't we kind of. This feels out of place with the conclusion. Verse 19 feels like a plenty good conclusion. But this is like going back to this all started with. With having this disparate like, oh, here's my private plans versus my public life and having that division. That is what is going to lead you down this path where all of a sudden what's good for you does not line up with what's good for the rest of your community. And a real easy place to see where that starts is, are your real opinions, things you would never want your friends to hear. That's probably a problem. And it doesn't necessarily mean those opinions are wrong inherently, but just that points to, like, there's something wrong in that community. And like a fly in the ointment, if you snatch it out right away, if you have the ability to talk it out, do that, but certainly don't let it fester. That will only lead to bad things.

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah. It also connects back to our conversation about the tone. Qohelet's conversation about the tongue.

[Kohelet]

Yes, yes.

[Josh Bosse]

Finishing off. I think the big challenge for folks who are passionate about anything, whether they're on the right or they're on the left, or they have a lot of wealth and resources, or they don't have any wealth and resources, is the pointing of the finger at whoever the enemy is, right? Whoever.

[Kohelet]

Oh, sure.

[Josh Bosse]

It's not even Kirk. There's a different word for like, execrate, bind to a curse. This is make light of. So as soon as you're serving one population or you're in the midst of one population, the finger pointing begins. Which also Isaiah 58 says, if you will cease pointing of the finger, then your light will break forth as the dawn. Right? So it's something that is so socially applauded to have the best, like, jokes and the best signs and the best little zingers about political situation, about socioeconomic situations, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I was like, don't. If this is the way that we do healing, right, if this is the way that we pull the fly out of the ointment as we're trying to do the work of putting the world back together, which requires network, which requires things that we little Essene hearts want to go. Like now I'm just gonna go. It's gonna go and live in the cliffs. Live me. And it's like, absolutely not. First off, I've called you to the Shephelah, which shows up twice in this chapter in the Hebrew. I've called you to be in the Shephelah. And as you are there, you need to be embedded in your community. And that means stop making light of people who you feel like aren't on the same team. Because you never know at the moment that they won't be on your team anymore, that either you'll become their client and they're your patron and suddenly you've got to scrub your tweet history or, or there's somebody who all of a sudden you see the potential in them and God reveals where their heart is and you want to support them in the work that they're doing in the world. So it makes us feel so good to draw those lines about those people are bad, these people are good, those people are the problem with the world. And God's never been interested in that.

[Kohelet]

Right? And I think that dovetails back into something else. What I was originally planning on landing on for this episode, which beautifully enough is the same spot, although I had attached this to that idea of the absent heart, the absent minded, foolish person. But I think with everything you've brought to the table, this episode connects to that. When you have that purely self interested relationship with community, where you're hiding your intentions and therefore you're actually out of sync, but think you're hiding it. That the, the danger of that is exactly what you said. You don't actually know what your relationships will be with everyone around you in the future. And the people that right now you ridicule might be people you really need to rely on. And the perfect example of this is Mordecai and Esther, right? They were building these networks before Haman came on the scene. They had the whole thing where Mordecai stops the assassination attempt, that is before Hamon is even mentioned in Esther. And even his placement of Esther in the palace, that was all stuff done in advance to prepare for such a time as this. It was not something they did reactively to the situation. It's something they did long in advance because they knew, hey, when we invest in the people around us, when we have these deep relationships, good things will come from that even if we don't see it immediately. And what I really think is important about that is that on the surface we have Esther and Mordecai who are, in a certain sense, lying and hiding. But what are they hiding? They're hiding their heritage because they do not want to be discriminated against. They don't want to be targeted. For whatever reason, they're keeping it under wraps. They're not actually at odds with their community. They have all these real positive relationships, and a lot of that is based on mutual support and material support. And we see that when the time comes, when, you know the famous line for such a time as this, when that time shows up, then everyone's there to support them because they weren't lazy and letting the rafters fall in. They were actively supporting and building their community. And it doesn't always. It's not always easy to do that, and it certainly does cost us something. But that is what keeps the community healthy. Healthy. And that is really, really important, especially in a time that we find ourselves in now where the institutional side of our community is definitely in a bad way. And it is not always easy to find a institutional center for our community. It is more important than ever to get good at the basics of community, which is, hey, eat food together, give it away for free, don't be stingy.

[Josh Bosse]

Connect to people, call out the potential that you see in them, and then.

[Kohelet]

Do something about it and support each other, especially in those regards.

[Josh Bosse]

How easy would it have been for Esther, whether it was pre harem or during harem, to complain about a Chesh farouch? Like she would have been correct?

[Kohelet]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[Josh Bosse]

The words you're using to describe him, you know, I'll. I will be poor and silent. Silent and poor is what his name means. So if she had named those things, like, in a way, she's a victim in the situation, right? She didn't choose to be the hottest one in town. Just happens to some of us. And yet she, you know, holds her tongue through that time, which I think that sets us up beautifully. Like you're saying in these takeaways, be people of the community, be people of the acts. Two kind of community. Be people who are ready to engage when there's a fly in the oink and pull it out and do the work of healing. And how do we do that? Good community practices which involve both putting your money where your mouth is and supporting people with generosity and hospitality. And also, if you're going to speak, make sure it's towards something and doing something good and not just flapping about.

[Kohelet]

Oh, my goodness. I don't feel convicted at all by that. So we better end the episode quick.

[Josh Bosse]

Sounds good.

[Brent Billings]

Well, another wonderful conversation. So many details left to dig into. Like, the conversation is not over by any means. Lots of crazy words in this book that we just have plenty of analysis to bring to the table and study to do. So we're just scratching the surface here, but it's been quite enjoyable as far as I'm concerned.

[Josh Bosse]

Been a delight to be here. Thanks for inviting me, Joshua.

[Kohelet]

Amen. Yes, thank you. Oh, my gosh. I feel like this isn't even my episode anymore. This is. This was Elle's episode, 100%.

[Brent Billings]

Well, listeners can find more details about our [e-mail] if you want to get in touch with us, you can use the contact page. You can find a group with the map. You can find our latest happenings on the news page. You can support our work. Everything we do is made possible by listeners like you who choose to contribute to these studies, these moments of wrestling, all of the things that we try to do and try to be about here at Behemoth. But thank you for joining us on the Behemoth podcast this week. We'll talk to you again soon.