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- [00:00]
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Foreign.
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This is the Baymaw podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today I'm with Josh Bosse to see Kohelet peacefully on her way.
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Indeed. This is the final chapter, chapter 12.
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B
Not the final episode of the series, though.
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A
Not the final episode. Marty wants to have the last word.
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B
Well, that's the thing about being the editor of this podcast, Josh, is I get the last word.
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A
That's true, that's true. We'll get into it here. Someone else. There's going to be a little struggle over the last word here in chapter 12 itself. Yes. How fitting. Well, so once again, I am going to issue my famous warning, because if you haven't picked up on Qohelet and all her nuances at this point, it's. It's over for you. You just gotta go back. Go back and re. Listen to it. If it hasn't sunk in yet. No judgment. No judgment. You know, sometimes we all need to hear something multiple times.
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B
Oh, my goodness. Yes.
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A
The warning is also not quite so applicable this time, because last chapter, we kind of got to Qohelet's, I guess you could loosely call it a conclusion. This is not necessarily gonna be introducing any new ideas, per se. I mean, we can probably find some. Some nuggets in here. But most of Qohelet's writing in chapter 12 is poetic, is entirely poetic and artistic. And that's not to say it doesn't have anything to say. It has, I think, a lot to say in light of everything we've read so far, and even just the tone of, you know, where we left off last time, about appreciating youth and treasuring and enjoying all the things God has given us and all that. But let's dive into this, Brent.
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B
Remember your creator in the days of your youth, before the days of trouble come and the years approach when you will say, I find no pleasure in them. Before the sun and the light and the moon and the stars grow dark and the clouds return after the rain, when the keepers of the house tremble and the strong men stoop, when the grinders cease because they are few and those looking through the windows grow dim. When the doors to the street are closed and the sound of grinding fades, when people rise up at the sound of birds but all their songs grow faint. When people are afraid of heights and of dangers in the streets, when the almond tree blossoms and the grasshopper drags itself along and desire no longer is stirred, then people go to their eternal home and mourners go about the streets remember him. Before the silver cord is severed and the golden bowl is broken, before the pitcher is shattered at the spring and the wheel broken at the well, and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Meaningless. Meaningless, says the teacher. Everything is meaningless.
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A
Wow. Part of me wishes this is where the book ended, because, man, what a cool way to end this poetry. Kind of crescendoing to Qohelet, cycling back and declaring the very thing she started by saying. Everything is mere breath, just emptiness, breath. Oh, what a poignant ending that would have been. But that's me speaking as an artist.
- [03:32]
B
And we'll talk about the remainder of this chapter in a moment. Yes, but I will just say the. The net is a little overzealous with its footnotes. Or not. Well, the footnotes, obviously, with its subtitles. It has a subtitle just for verse 8, and it refers to it as the concluding refrain. The subtitle is almost as long as the entire verse. But, yeah, it does feel like this conclusion right here at verse eight.
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A
Yeah. And we'll see with the rest of what's written here why that is. But first, let's just keep our attention right here on this lovely little piece of poetry, which Kohelet is no stranger to using images and having poignant moments of putting images in juxtaposition, sometimes for contrast, sometimes for harmony and emphasis. But this kind of collection of just straight poetry is pretty new. I mean, we have poetic elements like in chapter three and in the Race is Not to the Swift. We know she can go on a run, but this is not making an argument. Like, those were. Those were kind of building an idea. I mean, I guess I'm kind of getting ahead of myself. I don't see an argument being made here. I'm seeing a picture being painted. Well, first of all, Brent, what are your impressions? I don't want to affect. Influence your perceptions yet. What are you seeing here?
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B
I think of chapter three, as you mentioned, probably being the other one that is the most poetic. I'm trying to remember exactly, but I don't know. I just don't know if I could put this at the top, but, man, this is easily in the running for the most beautiful portion of this book, I think. Yeah, like, as it was coming out of my mouth out loud, I was like, oh, this is like. This has a certain rhythm to it. And I even wonder, like, as I was reading, I'm like, how is the NIV translating this? Because it sounds particularly beautiful. In English, the way I'm reading it.
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Right.
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B
Did they have to massage the translation at any point to get it to, like, fit whatever they were doing? I don't know. So that was a question that was lingering. But as it was coming out of my mouth, I was like, this sounds really beautiful. This picture is really, really pleasant.
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A
Yeah, yeah. That, I think, is remarkable in and of itself. And if we want to go a step further, like, we're not just ending the book and then here's a little Thomas Kincaid painting of some cute little cabin in the woods or whatnot. Like, this is connected to what we've been talking about. So, like, what are we even looking at? What do you see in this?
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B
I mean, it's funny to even consider it to be pleasant, but, like, it's talking about how everything's gonna end.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
Like, how everything is gonna come to its conclusion. You know, when things are broken and severed and shattered and. Yeah, you know, there's a lot of that, but just. It somehow is like. I mean, even in the intro, it somehow brings this, like, peace that surpasses understanding. Perhaps we might say.
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A
Yes, yes. This is a very, like, graceful way to face death, I think. Like, this is.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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Very certainly full of understanding and peace. Did you have any other thoughts before I start picking away at this?
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B
Yeah. Even in verse seven, where it's like, and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and it's like, oh, it just kind of gets absorbed back into, you know, like that. But then it turns it around and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
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A
And I'm like, oh, yeah.
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B
The ultimate comfort. So, yeah, just more of the same, really.
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A
Yeah. And even that, like, the. The reference to dust returning to the earth, I think that was. That's also the very first, like, direct image that Coelut uses, if you don't count the repetition of Havel havilim. Mere breath is of the earth, the earth remaining forever. And so very appropriate here that that image of death and the completion of the cycle is returning to the earth. But the other brilliant thing about that, too, is I almost want to work our way through this to get to it, but you pointed it out. So the beautiful thing here, too, is that when it says the spirit will return to God again, what's that word for spirit? It's ruach, which doesn't just mean spirit, it means wind and also breath. So it's, you know, this picture of God breathed into us in creation, and now the. The breath is returning back to God. But Then what does Qohelet say right after this? Chavele havilim? Mere breath. Everything is breath. Right after giving us this image of God's breath in us. And so it almost like, reframes what it means when Qohelet is saying everything is breath.
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B
In the end, everything returns to God.
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A
Yeah, yeah. Oof. We're getting some goosebumps. For real. I do want to say there are some weird translation things here, and there are not a lot of good answers for some of these. So some of these images in this poem, we might have to just kind of shrug our shoulders a little bit and make our best guess. And a lot of translations do that. And I don't. I don't really fault anyone for how they translate this. Like, I don't have any real notes, at least for this part of the NIV's translation. Like, that was all pretty much fine. There's a couple phrases in here that people are like, yeah, we don't know what that is. But overall, this is a picture of aging, of decay. And a lot of it is in, like, kind of using this metaphor of a town, which I think is really interesting, especially given Qohelet's individualist lens. And now seeing, like, this painting of an individual, you know, aging, breaking down, decaying, dying, and having that picture be of a community of, like, a little, you know, village kind of dying down. Very interesting contrast. But I think that the opening line kind of gives us really the only idea that's being advanced here, right. That we had this exhortation in the last chapter to just enjoy your life fully, go after your desires, follow your heart. Not something that we usually hear from the Bible, but in the context of Qohelet, it makes sense. What we're talking about is not the follow your heart of just do every dumb thing that enters your mind. We've already talked about that in earlier episodes. But you want to be an artist. Yeah, sure. That doesn't really make sense, but you know what? Do it. You know, like, don't waste your life. You know, you have youth, you have health, you have energy. Like, go follow the things that your heart desires. Follow your passions, follow your desires. And in a biblical sense, you know, this is not as controversial a thing. I don't think this is the controversial thing in Qohelet. It's more the lack of setting that in the proper religious framework that gives due authority to the institutions and this and that. But that message of, like, enjoy your youth. Appreciate everything you have, I think that's Very powerful. And then kind of contrasted here with there's gonna be a day where things get bad where you start saying, like, yeah, I don't enjoy living anymore. I don't desire this. Like, this isn't. It's not fun anymore. And what's really striking to me is, you know, the very first image we have is of light disappearing. And this kind of reminds me of our last chapter where we had all these creation images. And again, like, this hopefulness and desire to just live life fully, even in the context of exile. Even in the context of not having any control over the future. Even more so than normal people not having any control over the future. So here we have, like, the opposite of that creation imagery. And the ordering is interesting, too. I was trying to think of, like, what this could mean, but we have the sun and the light and the moon and the stars becoming dark.
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B
Yeah, right.
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A
And that image of the light receding from, you know, the biggest sources of light to the smallest. And from the stuff that lights up the daytime to that which lights up the nighttime, like, there is this receding light. And then after that, we have this interesting image about clouds returning after the rain. I wonder if the image here is supposed to be of like, kind of time flowing in reverse almost right. Like you have the light receding, creation kind of being undone, and it rains, but then there's still clouds. That could be one way of looking at it. It could also be, you know, clouds returning after the rain. Like, that is also an image of dimming. You know, a lot of times the rain is over, and then, you know, you're looking for that bright sunshine, but instead, nope, it's still. It's still dark. Like, this kind of fits, I think, practically with the image of the kind of like, hey, it gets to a point in life, especially in this time in human history, where, like, there is not hospice or palliative care. Like, if you are old and have some collection of. Whether it's diseases or injuries or whatnot, you might be in constant pain. Imagine if you have some disorder, you have arthritis or something like that, or just movement and whatever, you might very well just be permanently miserable when you get to a certain age. Pre modern medicine, not that they didn't have anything to be able to soften that back in the day, but certainly not what we have in the modern times. So this is, you know, somewhat literal. Like, it's like, yeah, one day it'll just be dark out and it'll just stay that way and it'll never get better. Oh, and what's interesting, there is a little bit of a debate in verse one about the translation of remembering the Creator, because that word for creator can also mean the beginning. So it could also be saying, like, remember those beginning days. Remember the days of your youth. Which I feel like, in one sense makes better contrast with that verse, like, remember these days before the evil days come. Remember your creator is also a perfectly fine rendering there. That's how Alter translates it. That's. You know, there's nothing wrong with that translation. Again, this is more about weighing our images and how we see the picture being painted. But, yeah, we have this idea of just overhanging darkness. And then this is where we get into the kind of village imagery. We have watchmen trembling, strong men bent over, grinders ceasing because they are few. These are all metaphors for the body, right? The grinders. Your teeth are now a few. You lose your teeth, you're old, missing a few. The strong men and the watchmen. The watchmen would be like, you know, what guards the house, what guards your body, the ar. And so, you know, your arms are a little shaky and trembly. You can't do the same kind of work. Your legs are kind of stooped and bent. The people looking through the windows grow dim. You know, your eyes, all. All of your faculties are slowly starting to fade away. And then we have, you know, this is when in verse 4, this is where it gets tricky. And some people try and, like, make this a perfect allegory where every single image fits a different part of the body failing. Which, you know, I sympathize with that approach. It may even be accurate, who knows? But especially with what we were looking at in the last chapter and just seeing how Qohelet is, like, she doesn't seem crazy focused on. Like, there are moments like, with, you know, oh, the race is to the swift, and there's a time for this and a time for that. Sometimes she will do these, like, pretty thorough listings, you know, but also in the last chapter, we had a bunch of mixed images. And so I don't know if that is, you know, if that's just trying to be overly precise and maybe to shove in some thoroughness, some completeness that isn't intentionally there.
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B
I mean, last chapter, you thought it was mixed images, and then you kind of talked yourself into thinking that it was more coherent by the end of the episode, I think.
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A
Yeah. And that, you know, that is true. The. But I think it's also like, at least on the pashat level, Certainly. And speaking of that, I was looking for Remazine here because I'm like, you know, there's a lot of images. There might be something. I could not find a single thing. And that's where, you know, again, this one, I'm kind of holding everything pretty loosely just because I think this is more than. Certainly more than any other part of the book. This is pure artistry, or at least the majority of it is artistry. And so, you know, I feel like we have the license to kind of take these images as they seem to fit best. And I'm not too stressed about these, but there are some curious translation things here. Alter talks about this a lot. You know, verse, basically, verse four, verse five. That's where we start getting into the, like. Okay, we have some weird Hebrew phrasing here. What does this mean? We have the doors out to the street being shut, and the sound of the grinding is low. So I'm assuming that the. Because I think the word there for doors is specifically double doors. Oh, yeah. So I wonder if that is supposed to be the ears. Right? Like, your ears are. You know, the sound is lower now.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And then this is contrasted with a really interesting image of rising up at the sound of birds. But actually, I do take issue with that because it has birds in the plural, and it's pretty specific that it's a singular bird. But I know why they changed it, and it's because the very next phrase, literally translated is the daughters of song sing quietly. Or I think it can even be read that they are, oh, Alter has this bowed down. I remember that now. So we have an image there again of, like, sound being dampened, which kind of makes sense. Maybe this whole verse is just about losing your hearing. But then we have this contrast of arising at the sound of a bird. So this, to me, feels like, you know, getting startled easily. This is, again, where it's like, how do we want to construe these images? And. And also, like, culturally speaking, what sorts of symptoms of aging are associated, are, like, primarily associated with aging in this culture versus ours? I don't really think we have an image in here of wrinkly skin or anything like that. You know, is there meaning in that? Probably not. It's probably just, you know, what happens to be an image that affects us. So, yeah, we have this whole verse kind of seeming to be about sound, though. And then we have this image of being afraid of the high places and the terrors of the road. And so this is where I kind of feel like this is now becoming less about the body. And I think it used ears. And by it, I mean Kohelet, through this work of art, she's using the image of ears. The double doors, right? And the double doors go out onto the street, out into the community. But now it's closed. You can't hear anything. All the sounds have died down, and you're separated, and now it's quiet, and a single bird can startle you. And the singing, the what's going on in the town, you can't really hear that, and you're afraid to go outside. See, to me, that fits. More like now we're shifting into a different form of the image. We're still talking about aging. We're still talking about what that is like, but it is now less about the physical parts of the body. And that's why the rabbis go to great lengths to try and tie each of these images to a different thing. Like, oh, this is the spleen shutting down, and this is the, you know, whatever. You know, there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Not trying to make fun of them. You know, this is. Like I said, the Hebrew is very strange here. I think it works better if we think of it in terms of now taking a different angle into a different image. Even, you know, we're transitioning scenes, and now we're looking at, you know, being afraid of going outside or going up high. You know, it's just safer to stay inside, stay on the ground floor, don't mess with stairs.
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B
Right.
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A
That's something that is really a big deal for people who are getting up there in age and, you know, at danger of falls and things like that. And then we get a series of outdoor images, right? The things that would be in this outside setting that maybe are now cut off. We have the almond tree blossoming. We have. And this one, this next one has a lot of debate around it. And I believe the NIV translated it the same. Let's see. Yes. The grasshopper dragging itself along, which I like that image because, you know, you think of a grasshopper. How does a grasshopper get around?
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B
Leaps and bounds.
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A
Yeah, exactly. And it's like, what a perfect image for, like, losing the spring in your step of, like a. Watching a grasshopper just drag itself along. And I have seen in some notes, and the net may even have this, but that apparently, female grasshoppers, when they're laying eggs, the eggs are, like, I guess, stuck onto their body. And so they're. They're a lot heavier, and they can't hop anymore. And after their eggs hatch, they actually die. So that would be a pretty fitting image. I don't know if that involves shoving a lot of our stuff in there, but it is certainly a fitting image. Both of this usually like, spry, you know, like this thing that literally has a spring in its step now just dragging itself along before it dies. The other main way of translating it is not as a grasshopper or specifically as a locust, but as a locust tree that is dragged down because it is covered in fruit, which is weighing its branches down. And there's a couple interesting things about this. And this also connects back to the almond trees. So both almond trees and locust trees have white blooms, Right. So you have the whitening of the hair.
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B
Oh, yes.
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A
Both fitting as a metaphor for age. You have the kind of sagging tree that's heavy and drooping down. But the other thing is that almonds, almond trees throughout scripture are. I can't think of a single case that is opposite this. They are always an image of something happening quickly. This is because almond trees are the first to bloom, and they bloom very, very quickly right at the beginning of spring. So it's often used as an image of something that is about to happen quickly. So this idea of you're starting to get up there in age, things are slowing down, and then all of a sudden, bam, your hair is just white and you're slowing down. You feel dragged down by life. And then right after that, we have this image. And I think the literal image here is of a caper berry, although it's often translated in its connection to desire, because I guess it was used as some kind of stimulant, maybe even aphrodisiac. I don't exactly know.
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B
Yeah. Net points out that it is a hapax Legomemnon Lego Menon.
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A
I still can't say that. As soon as you said hapax, I'm like, oh, that word. That's right. Yes. It is not a very commonly used word at all. What's interesting, the rabbis interpret this one as in a very interesting way, which I'll throw in here. I don't know if I actually like it, but they talk about the caper bush budding again, that it looks like it's dead for most of the year, and then it just kind of revives and comes back to life. And they're kind of using this cross referencing with job in job 14. There's a little side note where Job is talking about how he's like, hey, I'm a Human being, plants, they die. They can come back to life. I'm a human being. If I die, there's no coming back for me. So this could be an image to kind of emphasize the finality. But I think it fits better to connect it to the idea of desire, because it's talking about the caper berry falling apart and that idea of, like, you know, being afraid of going outside. And then these kind of more. I guess we call them more systemic signs of aging. You know, all of a sudden all your hair is white, you're slower getting around, and now you don't even feel the desire to go out or do anything. And I think that this also fits really well because following this, we have a. You know, one of the few explicit. You know, there isn't some metaphor or imagery here. The last statement, and I'm reading here from the nasb, for man goes to his eternal home while the mourners move around in the street. You know, this image of finally going off to death to the eternal home, which, again, like, I feel like that line in particular really folds back in on what we were talking about with, like, the peacefulness, like, Qohelet. You know, for all the talk of death and the nothingness that Qohelet associates with it, the darkness, there is something here that does not feel quite as antagonistic as we might have assumed in Colette's attitude beforehand. But significantly, we have this. People going to their eternal home after talking about this old aging body that is now kind of confined to its home and not able to go out of the doors that go into the street. Again, once your hearing goes, that kind of makes it impossible to connect to people, to talk. At that point, you can go out, but what are you going to do? You're not going to talk to anyone. You're just walking around looking at stuff. You can barely see what's going on. Again, looking back, it's like, oh, man, that's such a brilliant transition of the body's breaking down. Now I can't hear anything. Now I can't interact with people. And now I'm afraid and I'm slow. This and that. And contrasting. Going to your eternal home with mourners in the streets feels very fitting. What's also fitting is when it says that they go about in the streets. It uses a word meaning to go in a circle, which, again, was used all the way back in chapter one and is very fitting with Qohelet in general. Talking about the cycle, the kind of the fruitlessness of a circle at the. Just going around and around.
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B
It's a slight breaking of the image, though, because, you know, this person's going to the eternal home. But then there's still stuff left behind. Like, there's still these mourners. It's not like. I feel like everything else is like, oh, it's all. It's all going dark. It's all fading. It's all whatever. And then the person leaves. But then there's still stuff left behind, which feels like it's breaking the image of what's going on. But I don't know for sure.
- [28:22]
A
Absolutely. And I would say this is another great point into what I've been talking about in all the warnings I usually give. This is the kind of. Like, in our actual individualist society, that would be where you end the poem. Right? Like, that would be the final image of you passing away. But Colette grew up in and lives in a more communal society. And so even though, you know, she has this perspective, there is also a deeper root understanding that, like, well, yes, I'm dying, but also there are people in the streets. And. Okay, so this is where it gets. I have a little bit of a problem because we have the insertion. And this is not just Niv. This is also in a lot of other translations where they say, remember him or remember your Creator before this and this and this. Yeah, and I get what they're trying to do grammatically, because it kind of is trying to stop it from feeling like a long run on sentence. And I think this is interesting with what you're talking about. What happens after you die, these mourners going around. And I just want to kind of push forward a little bit because I think if we dig into the next verse, that might give us some insight into this. So if we take away the remember part, then it just says, before, the silver cord is severed and the golden bowl is broken. Which aside, the rabbis like to connect this, the silver cord to the spine, the golden bowl to the skull, which, you know, again, if you're reading this and seeing the body breaking down like man, that's. You know, you struggle through verse five, and then you get to verse six, you're like, oh, thank goodness. More easily identifiable body parts. Again, no shade on that. Looking at that, it's like, yeah, that kind of makes sense. But I think there are some other ways we could take it. And it, again, may have a double meaning there. So we have the silver cord is snapped, the golden bowl is smashed, and then we have the pitcher being shattered at the spring And I think, yeah, the wheel broken at the well. Now, this one, the wheel broken at the well can be translated a couple different ways. Wheel is one of the common ones. The other one would be a jug or some kind of, like, container. And the reason I bring this up is because Robert Alter has a very interesting note about this. Seow points to archaeological evidence that pottery was actually broken at burial sites as a sign of mourning. Gal. Gal. Jug elsewhere usually means wheel, but here it is evidently related to gula, the word used for bull. The sense of wheel, though, still remains a possibility. So, again, you could totally read it as a wheel broken at the well, but I think it works a lot better if we take it as a jug or some piece of pottery, because then we have a pitcher being broken at a spring and a piece of pottery being broken. And actually Niv says well, which, again, not wrong, but the literal word is pit.
- [31:36]
B
Yeah, like a cistern or whatever.
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A
Yes, like a cistern. And oftentimes you would dig a pit because you were trying to make a well. So those are not unrelated. That's not a bad translation at all. But when I look at these two images of some kind of container, most likely pottery being shattered at a well or at a hole in the ground, I see two parallel images. And when I turn back and look at the first image of a picture by a spring, that, on its own brings a totally different thought. Especially altar translates as a pitcher being broken at a well. So when you think of wells and pitchers being used to draw water out of them, like, what kind of images come to mind, Brent?
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B
Well, we have the glorious return of Joseph here with the pit word.
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A
Yeah. Yes, Literally. Yes. We have Yosef. But what about, like, drawing water out of the well?
- [32:34]
B
Drawing water is more like Rebecca.
- [32:38]
A
Rebecca, yes. And in fact, if we look close, there are a lot of scenes of women at wells, not even thinking about the one in the Gospels. But, you know, we have Jacob meets Rachel at a well, where she's coming to open up the well so they can draw water out. This is a very typical scene. This is. It's like a. It's like a trope. This is a very common image of, like, usually not. Not romance, but of, like, a man meeting a woman that he's going to marry. He meets her at a well because, you know, a well is the sign of fertility. And so it's a very. It's a very fitting image of, you know, kind of framing their relationship as being one of matrimony, union, you know, partnership. So having, like, These two cultural images, one of the excitement of seeing someone who, you know, you're gonna. You're gonna woo, you're gonna run after, you're gonna chase, you're gonna be fruitful with. You're gonna build a life with. Contrasted with an image of mourning using the exact same items, right? Like a piece of pottery and a hole in the ground. Like, that, to me, feels to take, like, you know, the kind of. Even. I don't know if they would have had, like, a sense of corniness, but if there is, like, a corny romance image, this would be it, right? This is the quintessential like, ooh, life's just gonna be great for us. You know, we met at a well, and, you know, he liked how much water I drew out of it. Like, it's. It couldn't be more just, you know, schmaltzy. Again, not even sure if they had that kind of a concept back then, but that being contrasted with breaking pottery at a pit, like, with mourn, and then you have the layers of the pit. Like, I don't think there is a connection between pit and burial because, as we've talked about, burial is a little bit more complicated. But there is a concept of the pit being connected with sheol and death. So there is.
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B
Well. And the water in it being associated with the abyss, right?
- [34:51]
A
Yes, exactly. There is a lot of synergy between these two images. There's a lot of. A lot of meaning that comes out of it just by, like, tweaking those two little things. And this is where, you know, I feel like Qohelet is also kind of, you know, we've gone from the individual breaking down to the communal breakdown and them being cut off, like, not just from nature, but also from community. And then having the kind of. At the moment of death, we get this zoom out, where now we're seeing the mourners going around in the streets, going around in circles. We see this image of our mourning, and we can. Even if we zoom out to the whole of this book. Mourners going around in a circle. Isn't that kind of what we've been doing? Isn't that what started all this? This quest for wisdom is like, oh, why isn't there something more? Like, there is this feeling of, like, we're missing something. We need to seek it out, we need to find it. And we feel like we're just going around in a circle and constantly chasing our tails, constantly, you know, fleeing death. And that, I feel like, fits really well with this image of mourners going around in a circle. And then we cut to these precious items, silver and gold, being destroyed. This is. So much of the book has been about specifically wealth and resources and what happens with all your stuff when you go, did you just pile up a bunch of stuff and hoard it and never enjoy it? Are you going to enjoy it? And if so, how? We've looked at all the different ways of doing that in both. Like the high flung context of fighting for justice, fighting against evil, trying to change the world in some sense, some very loose sense. But this idea also of wanting to pass on a legacy in this context, dying, it also means you're passing something on. You leave an inheritance behind. So are these precious items about inheritance and whether that inheritance will be preserved or whether it will be destroyed, Are you leaving behind anything? And we have these dual pictures of the fruitful image of marriage having the picture shattered. And then at the same time, this image of mourning at what might be an empty well or an image of death. And like all the fear that goes along with death, right? Like, that's what I really see here is like not just the fear of death, but the fear of futility, of like the pitcher being broken at a well. Which even by itself is kind of a ironic image, right? Like you bring your pitcher down to the well to draw water and then it breaks right at the well. Like this kind of cruel irony of life. And this whole verse starting out by saying, before that, before that, before that, like there is this moment of fear of. And this is something coelut constantly forces us to look at. Like, there are a lot of ways things can go wrong. And by wrong I don't mean. I mean that in like the individual sense. Like your plans, what you think your legacy is, what you want for your children and your family. All that can go wrong in so many ways, regardless of whether you do right or wrong.
- [38:20]
B
Yeah.
- [38:20]
A
And there are all these fears. And Kohelet, at this moment, even when we're like looking death square in the face, is reminding us, you know, to look before that, before this happens, right? Or literally it could be until this happens. And like just this at the final moment, you know, we have this kind of beautiful setting out of this. Like I said, overall, like a very graceful image. Even though it is hard, it doesn't hide the difficulties of growing old. There is kind of a fruitlessness. And then we have this image of all the precious things we're trying to bring, all the things we've been trying to balance. Like a waiter holding Two giant platters with the bajillion things stacked on top. And you get to the table, and right then you face plan and everything just crashes everywhere. That's the image I have in my mind. And, like, you're trying to land the plane at your death, and it's just, boom, fireball. And like, I kind of love the messiness of that image. Like, there isn't a kind of like, oh, everything will work out like Cole. It's like, nope. And then everything broke and was ruined. And maybe there's a sense in this verse of your dreams didn't come true. And again, I don't think that challenges inherently this peaceful image. There is an understanding of like, yeah, I know those things can't last forever. I know my favorite golden bowl, at some point it's going to get smashed. At some point, some in some exile, someone's gonna take it away and whatever. And these things are not forever. And I feel like what we hear when we go through that is an acceptance, right? Like, even my cherished dreams, those will even break, those will even fall apart. Not even just what I wanted for my life, for me, but what I wanted to go out into the community. I don't even want anything for myself anymore. And at this moment, right on the. On the. The moment of death, even being able to accept that, like, that that stuff may just never happen. Like, there is something so powerful in that. And then rolling from that right into the dust returning to the ground, and the breath returning to God.
- [40:41]
B
Oh, oh, okay. So the word for man, or people as the NIV translates it at the end of verse five, returns to their home, is that it's Adam.
- [40:56]
A
Yes.
- [40:57]
B
But are there any indications whether we should refer to that as a singular or as like a plural humanity sort of thing?
- [41:06]
A
That is a great question. So the literal word here is ha, Adam ha there being the article meaning the man, but that, like, when it's used like this, a lot of times it is like it's speaking about. And again, this is man in the. In the, like, broad sense of like, human. So let's just put that the human goes to their eternal home. So a lot of translations will broaden it to be people or they go to their eternal home, even though it is all technically in the singular.
- [41:44]
B
Because what I'm getting at here is we have then later on, the dust returns to the ground or earth. So if it's humanity and it's the dust returning to the earth, like everyone has died and has been absorbed, and then at the time this is written geocentric model.
- [42:04]
A
Sure.
- [42:05]
B
The sun is going around the Earth, the moon is going around the Earth, everything is going around the Earth. So are all of these celestial objects the mourners in this situation, when everything has like faded out on the Earth, when all of the dust has returned to it, then you have like. That kind of makes more sense to me as far as like, oh, this person goes to the. But then it's not actually conclusion because all these mourners are out there. But if the mourners are the sun and the moon and the stars and then I don't know exactly what to do about the light part of it. But we had that brought up at the beginning of the chapter. And then when man is done, those are still going around. So I don't know.
- [42:50]
A
Yeah, I like that. That's a very interesting take on that. I think that's super, super cool. I don't mind that one bit. I do think that that thing that you're stuck on there is probably just like our western individualism. Because I think if it's like.
- [43:07]
B
Sure.
- [43:08]
A
Cause here's the way I think and I have, I have a little experience with this having gone through some life threatening illnesses. And when you are in that place, you are just kind of, for lack of a better term, you are kind of outside of society. You aren't keeping up with what's going on in the world in the same way. And personal experience. When I was in that mode where I was just like, yeah, I feel like dirt and garbage all the time and I'm just kind of going where I have to go and I'm moving slow and all this stuff. And like a lot of the times what people talk about just feels kind of pointless. And in a certain sense it does kind of feel like far off mourning. Like they're, you know, upset about, you know, something that happened on a TV show or something that got said on social media and not to. Not to, you know, trash on people who just talk about what's going on in the world. That's nothing wrong with that. But when you're being faced with like your life running out.
- [44:11]
B
Yeah.
- [44:11]
A
Or just life is no longer fun to be a part of things like small talk or just gabbin can feel just like a reflection of. And kind of making noisy of the slow death that is like kind of all around you. And so this idea of a person in their home just getting old, just heading toward death and that the whole world is whirling around them and that everything the world is doing everything they're talking about, everything they're worried about with the markets and this new thing. And that new thing is all just kind of eventually when you get far enough away, you see that it's all just mourning. It's all just what we do with what we've lost. How do we move on from this, that and the other thing? And I think that fits really well with Qohelet. Seeing things like laughter and joy and excitement as fundamentally more ephemeral and not in a pejorative sense. Not like, oh, that stuff doesn't matter, because again, Qohelet's always saying, enjoy this, enjoy this, but you have to enjoy the ephemeral and understand that it's ephemeral and know that the heavy things are the things that last beyond death. And then some of those things can be joyful, but it's a different type of joy than like, woohoo, my team won, or whatever exciting thing is going on.
- [45:41]
B
Yeah. If you're not there for it, that celebration is just not the same.
- [45:45]
A
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that idea of being cut off and then all the things, all these precious items that maybe you wanted to leave to people, those end up getting smushed and destroyed and. And it's like just almost, if we were taking this in a negative sense with a bad eye, we would say, like, this is the final insult. Right. Like, this is the final little bit of life that you're like, oh, this will go on beyond me. And then nothing, it's just gets destroyed. It gets trampled in. People going around mourning. It's, you know, whatever.
- [46:22]
B
Yeah.
- [46:23]
A
And that idea of, like, this total, like this total death, like, not just you died, not just that. Like, it's not even that people have forgotten you. It's that everything that was you as an individual, like, maybe all of it comes to nothing. And there's nothing to soften the blow of death here. Right. Because. And this isn't to say, like, I don't think Kohelet is trying to be cruel and taking everything away. Rather, and I think this, what is, is what makes the poetry feel so peaceful. It's like, even if there is absolutely nothing to cushion the blow. No. Well, at least I left my kids enough money so they can go to college. Hey, let's say that the money you had saved up, some sleazebag lawyer stole it all from them, and now they're in an even worse spot. Even if that anything to cushion the blow and say, well, at least my life meant something because of this. What if even that is pulled out from under you at the last minute? There is nothing to cushion this blow. It's just death. Final. The end. The actual end. And the dust returns to the earth, and the breath of life returns to God, who gave it. And everything is breath. Everything is breath. That's what Colette's saying. Everything is mere breath. And maybe that's okay. Like, maybe that's the acceptance of it and making peace with it and making peace with the fact that the. And maybe this is something that we can take to heart ourselves, even now, like, giving up even our sense of immutable individuality. That, like, whatever is me that will live on is not something I will control. You know, it's giving up your iPad.
- [48:11]
B
No, no, no, Josh. We're gonna scan you, and we're gonna take all the things you've said. We're gonna create an AI Voice. We're gonna have a. Yeah. We're gonna.
- [48:19]
A
Oh, my goodness.
- [48:20]
B
We're gonna make you live on beautiful.
- [48:22]
A
Well, and then, you know. Yeah, man. But that would be an interesting theological debate whether my. My soul is still in.
- [48:29]
B
Yeah.
- [48:30]
A
If I'm still the captain of my soul in such a scenario. Maybe a question for a different series. I don't think would think very much. No. No, I don't think. Kohele. Oh, man. Well, man, I'm really happy with where this conversation has gone so far. Do you have any other thoughts before we move on to the other half of this?
- [48:54]
B
I don't think so. Not at the moment.
- [48:56]
A
Okay, well, let's dig into this less poetic conclusion. Epilogue, we might say.
- [49:03]
B
Yeah. NIV subtitles this the conclusion of the matter. Net breaks it apart into two sections. A concluding epilogue and a concluding exhortation.
- [49:13]
A
Ah, okay.
- [49:15]
B
So whatever. Let's see what it says. Not only was the teacher wise, but he also imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs. The teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true. The words of the wise are like goads. They're collected sayings, like firmly embedded nails given by one shepherd. Be warned, my son, of anything. In addition to them, of making many books, there is no end, and much study wearies the body. Now all has been heard. Here is the conclusion of the matter. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.
- [50:03]
A
Man very long for a conclusion. Felt like they're trying to say a couple things here. We kind of have breaking in here a third person, right? This is not Qohelet. This is someone talking about Qohelet. That's who the preacher is. Because, man, we haven't talked about this in a while, but yeah, Qohelet, the name means to gather together. One of the primary senses of this is to gather together people anytime. Like in the Torah, when it talks about the people of Israel or the congregation, it'll usually be translated the congregation of the people or the assembly of Israel. That word is kahal. Kahal as in Kahalet. So this is sometimes understood to be the gathering together of people to teach, or gathering together wise things to pass on could be taken in either sense. This feels a little bit more like Qohelet having, like, said everything she's gonna say. And in fact, we could even kind of take like this almost reframes the first eight verses here as Qohelet passing away. Like her final words, so to speak. This being whatever anonymous person compiled these things or wrote down her gathering and compilation of these things. An interesting assortment of things. And I don't know if it's super obvious listening to me, but I'm kind of of two minds on this final bit. A lot of people don't like it because it feels like someone coming in and being like, all right. And basically all Koele was saying is, love Jes with all your heart and be good. All right, have fun, everyone. Please don't tell your parents about half of what Coilet said. We don't want to get in trouble.
- [51:47]
B
It's a little message from the movie producer after the movie's over.
- [51:52]
A
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. At the end of this epic quest for wisdom, we have this appendage saying not only was Kohele wise, but also taught people, which I think is an interesting thing to add here. In addition, taught people knowledge, Da' at and pondered, searched out and arranged many proverbs. That's what the nesb says.
- [52:18]
B
Interesting thing on the Qohelet side of it, the instances in verses 9 and 10 where it says qohelet, it's just Qohelet. And everywhere else in the entire book, it's just Qohelet, except in verse 8 where it says Hevel. Hevel.
- [52:36]
A
Ah, yes. Ha. Kohelet. This gets into the confusion, right? Because a lot of people, you know, the reason why it's often translated as the preacher is because that verse seems very much like it could be a title. And if it was Ha Qohelet throughout the entire book. We would probably just be saying, this is the preacher. But, yeah, like, it's. Well, first of all, again, the Hebrew here is tricky all over the place. And the short answer is I don't really have anything specifically to say on it. But yeah, that is a really great point and kind of underlines a lot of the textual difficulties here. The reason the difficulties are here is not because, like, oh, it's just not the way it's normally done. It's because there'll be one weird exception. And it's like, okay, wait, is this supposed to apply to the other times, or was this the odd one out? What are we supposed to take from it?
- [53:29]
B
Well, I feel like if I was trying to argue that verses nine and following do not belong in the book at all, I would use that as my part of my argument. Like, oh, it's. It's always been kohelet, but then it's ha Kohelet.
- [53:41]
A
Yeah.
- [53:41]
B
And then that's supposed to be the end of the book. It's supposed to be this culmination of like, aha. But it's. It's the kohelet. It's been the kohelet this whole time. Haha. Got you. And then done.
- [53:53]
A
That's interesting. Which then we could. Maybe it's even an invitation for you to become a Qohelet as well. Ooh, okay.
- [54:00]
B
Yes.
- [54:01]
A
I didn't know that. Yeah, I like that argument. Yeah. And this. You know, it's no secret that this last chunk here is a different person. And.
- [54:11]
B
Yeah.
- [54:11]
A
What is also interesting is if we go back to chapter one, here's the thing. Like, you know, you have Job say, right? And there's like a framing narrative. It starts with this, seen in heaven, and then it ends with the same. And there is kind of a symmetry there that makes it clear. Like, you know, in the Princess Bride, right, you have Peter Falk, Mr. Colombo reading the story, and then we break away to that, and it's clear. Like, it helps us remember. Oh, right. This is all happening inside of a book that's being read by this guy. And you usually start and end with that to kind of, you know, bring the reality of that frame here. Now we have that a little bit because verse one of the whole book says the words of Qohelet, son of David King in Jerusalem. And this is where we can see that's kind of couched in the third person, as opposed to later in verse 12, where it says, I Qohelet have been King over Israel in Jerusalem. So if we're recalling that, we do kind of have a little bit of a framing narrative there. And then also, what's interesting is that chunk of chapter 1, verses 1 through 11, begins with that phrase we just heard. Merest of breaths. Everything is mere breath from Qohelet. Here we have that at the end. We kind of have a poetic format for most of it. It's not quite the same level of poetry. I would say there is much more philosophizing going on here than there is in the final.
- [55:48]
B
Definitely.
- [55:48]
A
But, you know, you can kind of see it if you squint. And that's where I'm like, okay, maybe this framing, this person who's framing it isn't completely just, you know, some jerk coming in at the end to try and make Qohelet less radical and, you know, silencing women, naughty, naughty. But here at the beginning, we have this kind of opening. Like, oh, yeah, Kohelet was super great. Like, this is like speaking positively of Kohele, right? Like, she wasn't just wise. Like, you're not just reading the private journal of someone who's really smart. Like, she also taught people. And not only that, I think the exact. Here, let me look at the Hebrew really quick. Not only that, it doesn't just say she taught people. It says she taught the people. Which, you know, again, feels like it's probably a nod to the use of the Solomon image that pervades most of the book, but could also just be speaking to, like, she taught generally. Like, a lot of times you would have wise people like this, and they would be leading a school. So is that what it's talking about? Or is it saying, like, she was just teaching to everyone? Was she more. More of a grassroots type of person? That'd be cool. Who knows? But we have this. This kind of official, like, summary of. Of Qohelet, of teaching people. Pondering, searching out and arranging proverbs. Or literally, the word here is the same as for parable. It's mashaal. The ending here about, like, finding exactly the right words. Like, I think there's. There's something kind of interesting about that. I like the way your translation put it there. The NIV searching to find just the right words. And what he wrote was upright and true. Which, again, in thinking about, is this someone trying to come in and steal Qohelet's thunder and undermine kind of the more subversive, less palatable to the religious status quo of the time? Is this someone trying to censor her. And it's not uncommon to censor someone after praise and be like, oh, they're so great. And basically all they're saying is this. It could be. And one of the things I like here is that in your translation, it says just the right words. The word that they translate as just right is the word chefetz, which we've talked about before. I forget which episodes, but this is a word for desire, for something that delights or is pleasing or pleasant, which is a little bit funny. Thinking about the content of Qohelet, maybe there's a little bit of irony here in that these are not necessarily fun words to hear, but maybe I could totally see this potentially. Being a scribe who was there listening to Qohelet try and figure out exactly what to say and was like, no, she really, really spent a lot of time on each individual word. That not only feels plausible to the specifics of the text here, but also feels like it's not trying to erase that the actual text of the book itself are undermining because they're emphasizing like, yeah, all of the words in this book were carefully thought out.
- [59:07]
B
Did you notice how many Hay Pax Lego Menons there are?
- [59:14]
A
I love that. Yes.
- [59:15]
B
Like, hey, I know we don't. I know we don't talk about this very often, but the caper berry is the perfect image for what I'm trying to communicate here or whatever, you know?
- [59:24]
A
Yes. Yes, exactly. Oh, my gosh. I love it. Yeah. And I feel like if you were trying to undermine Qohelet, being a little too subversive and radical for you, I think you would be saying, like, oh, and she's so passionate, and sometimes she doesn't quite think through her words. But, man, what she's trying to say is great. No, this person's saying, yeah, all the words, literally every word was intensely thought through and was written down correctly and it was true. Again, it feel like this is the tension. This is what I'm saying. And then we have. The words of the wise are like goads, and the collections are like finely driven nails. Feels like kind of an ironic image, just talking about how delightful all the words were. But the idea, like I said, there is a sense here of, like, even though it's difficult, it's all good. Every. Every single one is. Is helpful. And then we get this reference to the shepherd. Right. What do you make of that?
- [60:33]
B
I'm trying to figure out how to read this little set of imagery, because the Goads are like, you know, a cattle Prod. But then you have a shepherd, which you don't really use a prod for. You're just using voice commands or whatever. And then we have the nails, which seems completely out of left field, but maybe it's like something about a fence.
- [60:54]
A
Right.
- [60:55]
B
But I'm not really sure how to, like, meld these three seemingly disparate images.
- [61:00]
A
Yeah. And so, okay, so with the nails, I think the understanding is that you would make the goad by, like, putting nails into. Into a stick that you would then whack the animal with. So, like, those two kind of come together of. But. But then it's a little bit weird because this is where, like, okay, if the sayings of the wise person is the goad and the nails are like the individual pokey things to get the animal to move, it seems like we have this flipped because it would be the words of the wise are like nails driven in. And the collection is a goad.
- [61:41]
B
Yeah, right, it's flipped. Okay. Yeah.
- [61:45]
A
So I'm not sure if there's an answer to this. Again, this could also just be a cultural misunderstanding. And I'm not sure if this is relevant at all. But when I was looking up the imagery of the whole first chunk, when I was looking into locust trees, when they're cultivated, this is not as true, but it's something we have to cultivate out. They have crazy thorns. Like, crazy crazy thorns that are so hard that they are used for nails. And they're, like, big, too. They're like, you know, inches long. So part of me was like, oh, wait, nails. They mentioned that later. Maybe there's something there, I don't know. That is such a big stretch. I don't even know what connecting it would mean. But the image here is honestly a little bit beyond me because it doesn't just say they're like nails, but it talks about them being driven in. And the literal word there is to be planted. Is there this sense of planting in the agrarian sense. And then right after that, we have the word for masters, Ba'. Alei. So this isn't just talking about the actual collections themselves. And this is where I take a slight challenge with the NIV here, when they say the collected sayings are like embedded nails, because it's really the Ba', Aleh, the masters of. Or we could say the composers of. Or the people using them are like firmly embedded nails. So then maybe what this is saying. Oh, actually, wait, maybe this is how it makes sense. The words of the wise are the goad, the entire object because they are the ones who had these sharp but helpful directions in life, the people who master their sayings, the people who read these. Maybe we could understand it that way. The people who learn from these collected sayings or do the collecting of these sayings are like nails. They are the people who will then repeat the words of the wise to others. And that's the nail. That's the actual part that makes contact. That could be it. And actually, that might make sense because then it's going from like, okay, you have the wise person who says the original wise words. Those get collected and kind of distributed out, made, I guess you could say, popular or more help them exist in the public consciousness. That's more specific. That's like the individual nails on the thing. And then we've gone down. And then we go back up and say, and at root, all this is coming from one shepherd that is, of course, God. And this is where I think the suspicion about the motives of this third person comes in is like, oh, okay, we're trying to bring this all back under the umbrella of God. And what's, you know, what is okay to say in representing God and what isn't. This is where the cynical part kind of comes in. That could be seen as trying to undermine Qohelet's message. But I would say that, on the other hand, taking a pretty subversive and radical work and saying that this ultimately is wisdom coming from God could also just as easily be a attempt to strengthen this work and insist on, like, even though it is subversive and radical and goes against the conventions of the time and also challenges our own modern conventions in the church, in theology, in a lot of ways, I could see that. So again, like I said, I'm torn.
- [65:27]
B
Well, be warned of anything in addition to this.
- [65:30]
A
Right, exactly. So this is where I. And this is where it's like, we have this third person who is not Qohelet. They're not speaking with the same voice as Qohelet. It sounds like a different person. And maybe I'm reading into that, but it does sound like a different person. And so, I don't know. I feel like it's kind of. It's not easy to tell when Qohalet is, like, being sarcastic or something. She's a little too sly for that, I feel. But this character is like, okay, I don't know who this third guy is. I don't know what his deal is. It feels like this might be a joke or ironic. Right? Because don't add anything to this is something famously that Torah ends with. Yeah, yeah, don't add any words to this. So is this like kind of a tongue in cheek reference to Torah? Because after this, of course, we have this talking about, you know, there's no end to the making of books and, and too much study, you know, messes you up. Don't. Don't much study wearies the body, it says, which, you know, itself does not. You know, neither of those sound too out of place with what Qohelet is. I think she even talks about that in a couple chapters. So, yeah, is this a way of trying to stitch this back into the broader conversation? But yeah, that opening. Don't add anything, my son, that feels like it might be kind of meant somewhat humorously. I don't know. What do you feel about that?
- [67:04]
B
Yeah, I'm contemplating what the books part might be, the image that they would have. Like, everything's gonna be hand copied.
- [67:13]
A
Right.
- [67:14]
B
So you're really not making many books. You're making very few, right?
- [67:19]
A
Yes.
- [67:20]
B
And the idea of making many books is probably a little bit crazy.
- [67:24]
A
Sure.
- [67:24]
B
I don't know about the study part of it, but much study wearies the body. Like, the time that it would take to copy one of these books would be substantial and I would imagine quite wearisome.
- [67:36]
A
The other thing is, if we're talking about this being written post exilic period, this is potentially being written in the same milieu that is creating Talmud. Right. And so in that context, saying, like, yeah, this big grand book we're putting together, like, I mean, golly, I don't, like, I know we've talked about it before on the podcast, like, just the sheer breadth of the Talmud and all the arguments and discussions, like, truly any. Like, if you, you just dig into it a little bit, like, you know, just do a quick little Google search. Like, it is truly mind boggling how big it is. And especially when you look at how long it takes rabbis to study just like one particular section. Like, you could spend your entire life just studying one section of the Talmud. Like it is. It is massive. So I wonder if it is kind of commenting on or at least placing itself within that context. I don't know.
- [68:41]
B
Yeah, no, I like that it feels fitting.
- [68:43]
A
And just being like, yep, there's a whole big conversation. Everyone's kind of going crazy putting this stuff together. And I also kind of like it because really the point of this is like, hey, like, this book has set its piece and there's something very poignant about where it left Off. There's something very like, literally final now.
- [69:03]
B
All has been heard. It's like, wow.
- [69:06]
A
Yes, exactly. We have heard everything. And this is. I think this in particular is what galls people, right? Like, hey, this is like, I think literally it says, this is the final word on it. Right?
- [69:20]
B
Yeah. What does it say? I have reached the end of the matter.
- [69:24]
A
Yes. And that word for matter is also word. So it could be saying, this is the last word. I've listened to everything Qohelet said and basically fear God and keep his commandments.
- [69:35]
B
I mean, sure, right.
- [69:38]
A
And that's the thing, right, is that that's technically not wrong. But at the same time, if you just got done reading Kohelet and they said, yeah, so basically just fear God, keep the commandments, you would go, like, that's missing so much. But as we've gone through this book, and especially with the way we've talked about the mode of reasoning that Qohelet employs, the way she kind of just shifts seemingly effortlessly to the. All of a sudden you're at a different point. You're like, wait, how did we get here? There isn't this very clear Western. Like, this logical point leads to this logical point leads to this. It is much more subtle, and I think because of that, it is much more experiential. I've even just noticed this in myself, having been studying it on my own and then studying it in these episodes as we're sometimes reasoning it out as we're talking. There is something deeply experiential to this. And I wonder if, again, is this kind of a humorous thing of saying? Yeah, basically it does boil down to fear God, keep the commandments. She does also emphasize, do what you want, follow the desires of your heart, enjoy your youth. But then the caveat of that is, yeah, you know, you are gonna have to face consequences. So. And there is broadly a sense of like, hey, do what's right. Like that. That isn't absent in here. So I wonder if again, like, is this the author's. Like, is he adding his own little kind of humorous tongue in cheek thing of like, yep, this is. That's really all it is. Like, it's just. It's that simple.
- [71:17]
B
Well, the idea that this is potentially swirling around at the same time as the creation of Talmud only adds to it. Even without that, just the idea that, like, okay, well, you've got everything in Torah and probably a lot of other stuff as well. But now that you've heard this, you've heard it all. This is the Last word. The audacity of saying that is astounding.
- [71:40]
A
Yes, yes, and exactly. And the person who has the audacity to say that I don't feel like is the same person who is like, yep, and like, forcing us into the easy Bible Sunday school answer of like, yep, and it's all just about loving Jesus. Okay, let's go. Like, that is. I think I have to hear it with that, like, tone of irony and humor. But here we get to the one actual problem I have with the NIV translation.
- [72:09]
B
Okay?
- [72:09]
A
And it's this very last phrase. NIV says, for this is the duty of all mankind. Now, that word duty is an interpretive choice. What it literally says is, for this is the all of mankind. There is no other word there. And at first, that kind of doesn't make sense. Other translations, try and figure out ways to do this. In the nasb, it says, because this applies to all people, which is certainly another way of taking it. I like duty better than this applies to every other person. So I'll give NIV their flowers for that.
- [72:48]
B
I will say one of the most useful things about the Net is when there are a wide variety of translations for something, it kind of puts it all together for you.
- [72:56]
A
Okay, let's hear it.
- [72:57]
B
You've got. This is the whole duty of man. This is the duty of all men. This applies to all men. This is the whole duty of all men. There's no more to man than this man. There's probably others out there too, that they don't have in the footnote.
- [73:12]
A
But yeah, yeah, And I think, too, like, this is a tough phrase. Like, even in the jps, the main translation on Safaria, a Jewish translation, to be sure, they also say, this applies to all mankind. What is also interesting is that in the jps, that is where the book ends, it doesn't have that next sentence, which is very interesting to me.
- [73:39]
B
Yeah.
- [73:41]
A
And there's actually something else I gotta come back to. There's something else very interesting in Hebrew, but. But the idea that this is the entirety of human life, that I think is. That is an interesting concept that might be the most philosophical thing in this whole chapter. Right. This is the proper summary of what Qohelet has said. And that's where, on a surface level, it feels dismissive and all that, and I don't like it. But with all the other context being born in mind, I feel like we kind of have to give this compiler, this editor, the benefit of the doubt and try and take this seriously. And Qohelet in her final words, does say, enjoy things, follow the path of your heart. Just know that everything comes with consequences. Therefore it is like you should fear God. And that idea of fearing God and having a healthy respect of consequences, like episode zero, right? Eastern culture, no one's debating about whether God exists. So when we say things like, you know, we shouldn't be freaking out theologically, like we use terms like karma or fate or, you know, things like this, or it was bound to happen, like we use that commonly to express something. And I think something similar is expressed when they talk about, you know, fearing God. Like, it's that, like, you know, what goes around comes around. Like there are consequences, even if the path of those consequences is not a very obvious straight line in bright neon. That idea, I think makes sense. And then connecting that with keeping the commandments, that's, I feel like what for most commentators, especially the academic ones, that's where they're all rolling their eyes like, oh, right, that's what Qohelet's been talking about, keeping the commandments. But there is a connection, especially with what we were talking about earlier and the connection between this and Torah and possibly happening in the same milieu of the Talmud and certainly being like having maybe a different posture toward wrestling with these questions. We could see it as antagonistic, but we could also see it as not antagonistic. Like maybe this is talking about the process of Talmud of like exhaustively trying to figure out how to keep God's commandments. Because that's the question of the Talmud. How do we do it? How do we interpret this in this situation, in that situation, in a third situation that we've never even heard of before. Those are the difficulties, the practical difficulties, the under the sun difficulties of how we deal with this, that or the other thing, especially in exilic life, especially in living in this constantly quasi compromised state of we don't get to control everything in our situation. So is this maybe like, again, with a little bit of irony, a little bit of tongue in cheek, but at root very sincere, like, yep, no, this is all just trying to figure out how do we follow the commandments, how do we work within God's system of laws? Not as some like, you know, goody two shoes thing. Remember, this is the same book that said, yeah, don't be too righteous, don't overdo it. And I think that this is maybe talking about like the struggling with the text like that. I feel like the way the Talmud struggles and forces, or rather forces the reader to struggle through all these Opinions and rulings and whatnot. Like, perhaps this is referencing that. But ultimately there is like, you know, a tradition or a theme, I should say, in the tradition of wisdom literature, of connecting, like, wisdom and Torah. Like, the same way that, you know, there's a connection between the tree of life and Torah in wisdom literature imagery. So I wonder if this doesn't sound as crazy when you're writing a wisdom book in a context where in wisdom literature, like, Torah and wisdom are kind of thought of as the same thing, right? Like, there, there is, or at least there is much more connective tissue, much more than like, how we think of it in our modern day, where it's like, yeah, it's good to be wise, but that's not the same as the sacred word of God that came directly from God's mouth to our page. And also this is happening in the midst of the Talmud, where they're actually answering the questions of, for instance, what is canonically in the Bible, where those were decisions being discussed by human beings. And we can have all the right theology about the Spirit influencing that. But if you are in a room where people are debating which books belong in the Bible, which not saying that, that is the conversation this is specifically talking about. But when those are the kinds of things being discussed, you have a sense of, we are participating in this. We simply are. And it is part of our desire to walk in the path that God has for us. And it's not a straight line. It's not not just some easy paved road. It is a road we have to make. And I feel like summarizing that, that wrestling through, well, what is the right thing to do? Jumping back to chapter three, right? Hey, we're in exile. Is this the right time to have kids? Is this the right time to start a family, get married? Can I even stop mourning for all the people I've lost? Those are the kinds of questions that when you go to your rabbi and you're sitting in Babylon, that question is not separate from the debates you're having over Talmud. They are intimately connected. It's how we walk out the text and saying that that struggle right there, that is the entirety of what makes us human. That is our humanity. That is what it means to be human. And that. It's the people who disengage, the people who foolishly are just like, yeah, who cares? Let's just. Whether it's, let's just get drunk or let's just get our money, get our bag, that mindless pursuit of whatever it is that is the enemy. That is the thing that Qohelet has disdain for. Yeah. There is certainly a complex conversation here. And what I really don't like or what I don't want is for us to hear this. Yep. The summary of, yeah, just fear God and keep the commandments. I think that is meant to be the final, final provocation. That's not meant to be a pat summary of, like, okay, now just go about and do your normal Christian thing. No, if you've been listening to this series and have been wrestling with it, take all those things you've been wrestling with and seriously reckon with. Like, what if that is what obedience looks like? And what actually taking God seriously, which I think is kind of the sense, when we see the phrase in the Bible, fear God. I think the sense is more like, you know, to take God very seriously. Not that God is something malevolent, but that if God is like, that's where the word for fear and awe are the same.
- [81:03]
B
Oh, yeah, because like.
- [81:05]
A
And sometimes I've heard it explained as like a healthy respect for, but I feel like that's too. That's too flat.
- [81:11]
B
It's a little too soft.
- [81:12]
A
Yeah, yeah. And it's like that C.S. lewis quote, which, the way he does it, it's not bad. But he's like, ah, you know, God's not a tame lion. Like, there is a through line there. But I think it goes beyond just like, being aware that something can squish you. And there is something that changes when you actually have to reckon with, like, what Kohelet has talked about so many times. What the heck is God up to? Like, what is God actually trying to accomplish in our lives, in the world and that, like, when we start thinking on those terms, then that question of taking God seriously, even when God does things that go against how we imagine God to be or what we assume God would or would not do. No, if you actually respect God, fear God, have awe of God. You have to be aware that that untamed lion, it's not just, oh, will he bite me or not? It's that you can't wrap your head around it. You are smaller than it. You have to have reverence for this. And that means when we are very certain in our theology. And like, you know, I have heard this so many times in churches to the point where I think it's. I've heard it enough that I can speak on it, which is, like, I have heard pastors say that, like, well, it doesn't even really matter if global warming is real. God already said that he won't destroy the whole Earth, therefore, you know, there's no possible way these consequences could come back on us and destroy the whole world. It's silly. Only God can destroy the world, therefore we can't destroy it. Therefore we don't have any responsibility. And, like, you know. Yeah, yeah. I have heard that argument made that, like, oh, because technically, God's the one who's going to end the world, therefore we can't have devastating destruction that we wreak on the planet. Which feels kind of silly, especially when things like nuclear bombs exist. Like, we could definitely push a button and do something. Maybe God would step in and supernaturally stop that sort of thing. But that posture right there, that posture is not a posture that fears God. That is a posture that treats God like a robot who's like, oh, we already know God's only going to do this, therefore here's a little loophole.
- [83:22]
B
Well, yeah, when I think of fearing God or the lack of fear of God, Nadav and Avihu is the story that most prominently comes to mind for me. It's like, no, this is serious. Like, don't be careless in your approach to what we're doing here.
- [83:40]
A
Yeah.
- [83:40]
B
And I think, yeah, yep, that would be my response to that kind of an argument.
- [83:45]
A
Yeah.
- [83:45]
B
It's like, no, of course God is the one ultimately in control, but, like, God is also calling us to take these things seriously. We're not just gonna, you know, lollygag, do whatever we want, and he'll do whatever he's gonna do. Like, no, we're a part of it.
- [84:00]
A
Yeah. Now we get to the very final verse after talking about the entirety of humanity. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil. This, again, feels like, on the surface, kind of like, okay, like, we've certainly heard something to this effect before. Like, what is this? Why is this the last word and not kohelet? You know, exclaiming, like, everything is just God's breath. This, I feel like, is a little bit of a letdown, at least in English. I'm not sure if it would hit differently if we were all native Hebrew speakers, but there's a couple things in here that make this interesting to me. First of all, it says, all the works God will bring into judgment. What's interesting is that the word for works is right next to the word for God, which in Hebrew could also make it written, or have you read it as the works of God, which, if we remember, are, like, central to the cosmic mystery as Qohelet understands it. What are the works of God? We can't comprehend them. That's what she keeps talking about. We can't ascertain what God is actually up to. Which is part of. Again, connects to the fear of God. We can't presume to know how God works. Once we do, we are not fearing God.
- [85:20]
B
Well, and judgment is mishpat.
- [85:22]
A
Right.
- [85:22]
B
It's not like the way I would typically want to read that in a Western sense, is that idea of deen, like, oh, but don't worry.
- [85:30]
A
Yes.
- [85:30]
B
Even if people don't fear God, even if people don't keep his commandments, he'll bring them into judgment.
- [85:35]
A
It.
- [85:35]
B
And it's not. I don't know that it's supposed to be that. Right.
- [85:38]
A
Yeah. And, you know, mishpat can include punishment, but it's more about, like. Yeah. The process of sorting out. I mean, honestly, like, we have to remember the time of the judges. Right. The judges were there. Not like, they did make rulings on Torah issues. But it was also just like, how do we react? Like, politically? What do we do here or there? Like, it's closer to our. I think our word for discernment. Like, it has to do with pulling apart, like, the complicated issues.
- [86:07]
B
Speaking of the word order, though, could you read it as all the works of God Bring, mishpat, bring restoration, bring things into the right order.
- [86:18]
A
I mean, the only trouble with that is the word for bring is in the singular. And that word for act is, like, inherently in the plural because it's every act, you know, all I see, every act. I mean, maybe it is every act of God will bring mis. Oh, I kind of like that. We would need l to make it. Yeah. I'm pretty sure we're out of luck, though, because that word for deeds or works or acts is under a direct object marker, meaning it is the thing that is being brought.
- [86:53]
B
Okay.
- [86:54]
A
But either way, what's interesting is that this feels like a very roundabout way to say it. Right. Like, why doesn't it just say God will judge every act? It doesn't say that. It says God will bring every act into judgment. What's also interesting is that they have the little parentheses in niv. They translate it including every hidden thing, which is a little bit kind of weird because it's like, okay, we just said everything. Why are we including hidden things? But at the same time, going back to what the poem talked about, all the things that kind of fall between the cracks when death. Death comes. When there's destruction and decay. Everything that people forget. Right. Like, there is a lot in this book that is frustrated by the sheer amount of things that are hidden by time, by what is simply bigger than us or beyond us. And what's also interesting is that word for hidden is the word alam, which is connected to the word olam, which means eternity. So when verse five, when it talks about going to the eternal home, that is the same word that's being talked about here when it says the hidden things.
- [88:10]
B
Yes.
- [88:10]
A
And it's the same back in chapter three, when it says God is hidden eternity in our heart.
- [88:16]
B
Yes.
- [88:16]
A
Or actually it says he placed eternity, but that word is still there, hidden. So even the hidden things, man. The other thing is that a lot of times I go to the jps, both to see how they translate it, but also to see rabbinic notes on it. And because they don't have that verse, I don't even have rabbinic notes on this verse. And I have not dug into it enough to know why that verse isn't there. There might be a really interesting thing. In fact, I wonder if the net footnotes point at it. Do you happen to have anything there?
- [88:51]
B
There's no footnote at all on that last line. Okay, well, considering how many footnotes the net has, it is sometimes generally infuriating when there's not a footnote on the one thing that I wanted to have something to say. But yeah, there's nothing on that line at all.
- [89:05]
A
Yes. Yes. So what is really interesting to me here is that I like the NASB translation because I think it doesn't make it a parenthetical like also including everything that's hidden, because that feels kind of like extra. It says God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil. And what I like about this is that so much of what Qohelet has been mourning and bemoaning about life is about how much is hidden from us. And at this final moment, for this third party to reference that God's totalizing mishpat judgment, sorting out of everything that happens is specifically uncovering what is hidden almost as if it's reminding us that there is a hidden element to everything that is going on with us, not just what's going on in our hearts and whether our hearts had good or evil intentions and all the other things that go into the context of making a judgment on whether something is good or evil, but going back to how much hiddenness and lack of understanding and access to what God is doing is at the heart of Qohelet's struggle and ultimately is the thing that she has to accept. Not just that it's hidden, but that on the other side of what's hidden, there can be lost. There can be. You know, we can lose everything. And in a more like, spiritual sense that there is no utter safety, that we can just, you know, hoard our spiritual merit points and just feel good about things and retire peacefully. The fear of God doesn't mean we have to go around scared of him, like it's some kind of abusive relationship, but more that it is a continuously active relationship. I have a very good relationship with my wife. I still have to pay attention to what she says. Everything she says still has to be important to me. I don't just get to go, oh, sorry, Sophia, I understand you well enough, so I'm just gonna not listen to what say and just. We'll go about our business and I'm going to just stop paying attention to you. The relationship would break down no matter how good it is.
- [91:28]
B
That doesn't work. I've tried it.
- [91:30]
A
Okay, thanks. I was thinking about it.
- [91:34]
B
Yeah, don't do it.
- [91:38]
A
And so the hiddenness, the part of wanting to know, what is God doing? Why are we in exile? Why. Why are all these bad things happening? Whatever it is, knowing that, like, God's judgment is not just about, you know, categorizing everything into good and evil, but within that, maybe more deeply it is reaching into and not just revealing, but connecting all those hidden things that seem like they've passed away just because they've fallen outside of what we can see, what we can remember, what we can recognize, that even those things that are totally forgotten are still brought about into God's reckoning of things. And to me, man, this harmonizes so well with the episode I did on John 6, or the two episodes. In that sense, Jesus is using the Holy Spirit to talk about that same issue. But I think this might be what the compiler of Qohelet is leaving us with. And this kind of makes me love it. Like, ending on whether it's good or evil, as is always the case in Qohelet. It's like, yeah, maybe things turn out good for you, maybe they don't. Who knows? Could be good, could be evil, but underneath that, this assurance that what we do matters and we should have a fear of God, a taking seriously of God, but that in reciprocation, God's judgment will also, like it takes into account it has not forgotten, it remembers even the things that have been hidden, all the inscriptions that have been worn away by the sands of time by the literal sand and wind and rain and everything. Like, even that is present in that judgment. And again, not judgment of like, you know, will we get the thumbs up from the Caesar or the thumbs down? Like, our God is not Caesar. That's not how God works. But in God's ruling over our whole world, even the things that have completely passed away, those are still present. And having that be the conclusion after this crescendo of not making glorious, but making this kind of open diorama of a body decaying and of what it really means to be an individual faced with death, a communal individual cut off from community and heading toward this big, scary inevitability that is death. And worrying like, is everything nothing? And having that refrain of, is it all just mere breath death? Is it all just going to blow away in the wind? Is this going to be dwarfed by the grains of sand that rub against it? To have that be reframed as like, that's just God's spirit. It's going to pass away. And enclosing it all in that not certainty, but the comfort and the grace, and especially grace in the sense that El brought it up, of being taken care of, knowing that God has got us right. There is a deep trust here. I feel like, man, I really like it.
- [95:03]
B
All right, that is a beautiful place to rest for now, but we will be back next week with some further concluding thoughts, maybe some meta commentary, maybe some different ideas that we've come across along the way. We'll see what it turns into.
- [95:23]
A
Yeah, I'm. I'm looking forward. It should be juicy.
- [95:25]
B
All right, well, thank you, listeners, for joining us today. You can find details about the show at baymondiscipleship.com check out the news page, check out groups, check out the support page. Like, everything we do is made possible by listeners like you, who contribute to this work, who wrestle with us through this text to consider these words together. So thank you all for joining us in that work. Thank you for joining us on the podcast today. We will talk to you again soon.