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- [00:00]
Josh Bosse
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Brent Billings
This is the Baymaw podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we are with Josh Bosse to close out this series. And instead of letting Qohelet do the talking, we are considering the reflection of Qohelet in our hearts and in our lives.
- [00:19]
Josh Bosse
Yes, a little bit outside the normal method that we've used to talk about Qohelet. We're doing kind of a reflection episode looking back over this whole journey that has been, honestly, in many ways, surprising and revelatory. And, yeah, I feel like so much changed the more we went through it.
- [00:41]
Marty Solomon
And well placed because there's a lot of. I mean, we covered a lot of ground in the Kohele discussion in the best kind of way. Like, just dense philosophical considerations. And so it's good to do, like, a closeout, like, okay, let's boil this down to some good application points and some takeaways and see where that goes with that.
- [01:00]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, you're right. We did cover so much ground because, yeah, at one point we'd be talking about, you know, justice and injustice and fighting against it and then death and, you know, all these big existential questions, how to live in exile. Just so many things got touched on that are all really good. But, yeah, way more dense, I think, than I ever realized before, even in some of my past studies. Like, there is just so, so much in here, and probably a lot of stuff we didn't even catch looking back.
- [01:32]
Brent Billings
Yeah, absolutely true. For me, I knew a handful of passages very well, and most of it didn't know particularly well at all. So to see how it all fits together and how it's actually pretty unique among the biblical canon in how it functions and the kinds of things that it's doing, I think it was super helpful for me, too, get some of that bigger perspective on what's going on here. Do you guys have any particular feelings about the series as a whole? Any favorite parts? Anything that, you know, kind of was the main thing for you, that that changed everything or changed your understanding, however you want to look at it. It's kind of an open prompt, but what do you guys got?
- [02:16]
Marty Solomon
I'd love for Josh to help close us out, so I'll jump in here and go first. I had, like, four. Four things that stood out to me as I reflected on this series. Four themes, four takeaways that still throughout the weeks, like, they rise to the top. Seeds planted in my consciousness, whatever you want to call it. One that I noticed just in the last two weeks of the Last two episodes that we did was that weekly disclaimer, that weekly warning that Josh gave, which, in typical Bama style, like, we started with the disclaimer and the warning. And I was like, okay, yeah, no, I appreciate this. Somewhere in the middle of the series, it's almost like cheeky. Like, okay, not an eye roll, but I mean, like, kind of close. I'm like, okay, got it. Yep, got the disclaimer. But then at the end of the series, I was like, all right, hold on. This has become good again. Like, because we are so quick to do stuff with Qohelet that we should not do, to internalize Qohelat in ways we should not internalize it, to let it be a very nihilistic to. I mean, I just ran across a couple things this week where Qohela was being discussed, and I'm just like, man, does that just abuse the spirit and what I. What we believe Kohelet's trying to do because we just so quickly judge it as this or that. And so I thought that disclaimer and warning was really well placed.
- [03:47]
Brent Billings
It was a few episodes ago when Josh caught me trying to look at something in a particularly western way. It's like, oh, yeah, can't look at it quite like that.
- [03:55]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, I viewed it kind of like caution tape. Just like a. Hey, remember, before you cross over, like, you've got the authority to duck under the caution tape, but just remember, you're entering something unique, so keep your eyes open. The second thing I would say is just this idea. This is what keeps coming up. So I bounce around on the road all the time. I'm on the road trip, and it's always fun to meet the people that are caught up to real time. It is not most people. So listen, if you're listening to this and you've gone on the journey with us, you are like the firstborn, the bechor of Beima. So it is really something. You have gotten the double portion of whatever it is that we do. But when I do get to meet the people that are caught up in following the conversation that keeps. That has for the last couple months, been. The conversation that I have around the country has been post exilic. Is Kohelet. Post exilic wisdom. And for the most part, people are like, oh, gosh, yeah, of course. Like, once you. Once you start to look at it, you're. And I don't know if it's like, of course, closed deal. That's it. Obviously, Avi. But I do think that is an idea that has got legs enough that it's not just in the content of an episode or two, but that's going with me on some level. And I was thinking, I'll throw this in here too. Why not? While I'm here, I was reading this morning Ben Witherington, the Jesus Quest, which is a somewhat dated book, and. And Witherington is basically going through and evaluating what's known as the third quest for the historical Jesus, which, listen, if you're not into academia and you don't really follow scholarship, don't try to figure all this stuff out. It's not going to be a journey that's probably worth your time. But if you follow scholarship to where any of that means something to you, Basically, Wetherington is taking all of the popular scholarship of the third quest for the historical Jesus and he's evaluating it for its merits and he finds something possible, something positive in all of the different bits and pieces of scholarship. But he also is like, okay, this over here is largely rubbish for these reasons and these reasons, these reasons. And as he works his way through the book, he gets closer and closer and closer to his own, his own stance of what the histor who the historical Jesus was. And I really have enjoyed it. It'll be a source that at least gets four stars. We'll see where we land in the last two chapters tomorrow, but I'll definitely be recommending it. Not because I agree with every one of Witherington's nuances. Here's the whole point for why I'm getting into this. This third to last chapter of the book, chapter seven, he talks about the idea of the historical Jesus being a wisdom prophet. And all of a sudden, out of nowhere. So Witherington is then like evaluating and critiquing Elizabeth Forensa's scholarship, and then he slides into his own, and he hasn't given his own opinion through the whole book. And all of a sudden he's like, here's my opinion of the historical Jesus, and it's similar to hers, but different. And all of a sudden he's talking about Qohelet, Job and Qohelet. And I loved it because he was calling. He didn't say her, but he was calling it Qohelet and not Ecclesiastes. And all of a sudden he's having this conversation of Job and Qohelet are coming out of this post exilic wisdom tradition that then gets carried through into the wisdom of Solomon, into all this other Jewish wisdom, and Jesus is stepping into so Witherington says, I believe the historical Jesus is somebody that sees himself as squarely in the wisdom tradition of post exilic Jewish wisdom, namely Job, Qohelet, and a few apocryphal works. And I was just like, wow, so juicy. Because we routinely made the connection to. This feels a little Jesusy. This feels a little Jesus Y. And then to have somebody say, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is post exilic wisdom traditional, right? And I was just like, oh, yay, here's a scholar that actually said something that was very, very similar to what we were. What we were dishing out. So I thought that was good.
- [08:19]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, I. Wow, that's. That's really. Even just like putting together, like, oh, this is kind of wisdom literature, but it's also kind of got that prophet spice on it. Like, I feel very validated with someone else.
- [08:33]
Marty Solomon
Like, yes, yes.
- [08:35]
Josh Bosse
Clicking that together. Because that. And, you know, I. Going through this, I've never thought about the connection between Kohele and Jesus, especially because, like, I am not. I am not the history guy on the podcast. I am the least history out of everyone. But, yeah, like, it even to me fits with how much he emphasizes parables in teachings. Like, that feels. Oh, man. There's. Yes. I feel like, man. Oh, yes.
- [09:00]
Marty Solomon
Completely. Totally.
- [09:01]
Josh Bosse
It's so good.
- [09:02]
Marty Solomon
And it fits that he would say in his perspective, like, there is a school of prophetic thought. There is a school of prophetic voice in Second Temple Judaism, and Kohele is a part of that school. Job is a part of that school. He thinks Jesus sees himself as the chief exemplar of that school. So third thing I would say, the thing that. That I thought you just really brought towards the middle end is the wisdom of action. What I would call Walter Brueggemann's accommodation resistance. It shows up in the Esther connections that we made you and Al a couple episodes ago, you know, drilling down on. On Esther. Love that. But it's. It's the idea of. Well, I remember the episode that I was on with you where we were talking about not leaving the room, like, you stay in the room when you can, to influence the king from being a fool. That's the accommodation resistance. And I didn't necessarily ever see that in Ecclesiastes as clearly as when you took us through that series. I loved that. Finally, I would say just the arc of Qohelet as a whole, where Qohelet starts was like. I remember the beginning of the series. We were like, qohelet talks about the past. And then Qohelet talks about the present, and Qohelet talks about the future. And Qohelet talks about how this relates to time and what we do with legacy. And then somewhere in the middle, it transitions. Somewhere in the Kohelet buys a coffin episode where it's like, okay, so it's not this. It's about something else, something far more deeper that matters. And that's when it transitions into the wisdom in action. It goes from futility to what truly matters to shrewd activism. And all of a sudden, the Kohelep journey is an activism journey. Like, I was so beautifully surprising. To me, it was like a wonderful little tasty, like, oh, I did not expect to have this little dessert at the end of the series where all of a sudden, Kohelet has called me not to nihilism, but, like, almost anti nihilism. Called me to action, called me to do something, called me to put wisdom to work. I just really, really liked that. So thanks, Josh, for all those little buried treasures.
- [11:19]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, well, and thank you for sharing some of those connections you saw. Like, I mean, I'm sure the listeners can tell how, especially with that historical connection and the connection with Jesus. Like, that's always great to hear, and it's gonna give me a ton to reflect on. And I really like the way you tied it into the arc of Kohella. And there's something there, too, that I feel like almost like maybe a meta narrative that's kind of not quite on. Like, in an explicit sense. Like, one of the big things for me. I recently just went back and decided to read through the whole book, just not take notes, not overthink it. Just with everything that we've experienced through this journey. Coming back after a couple weeks of not recording and then just hearing the whole thing. And one of the things that really struck me there was something that. I think I wrestled through this in one of the early episodes because there is. You know, Qohelet starts with her talking about how much wisdom she has accumulated. And there's this idea of accumulation and that is so tied into the narratives. She ends up deconstructing around wealth and even around righteousness of like, oh, you do the right things and your life will go well, if you're wise, then. And it's like, no, no. She keeps chipping away at that. And I feel like in some part, she is also trying to transform her own relationship with wisdom. Right. She had amassed all this wisdom. She had accumulated it. And it seems like that was largely through maybe observation or just, you know, being on the outside looking in. And that wasn't. That wasn't enough. There was a deeper hunger for something more connected, more involved. And this, this Yatrone, as we keep going back to in the. The series, linguistically, which. One of the things that surprised me was that initial, not quite obsession, but that focus on where's the atron, where's the extra thing? By the end of the book, that's not even on her radar at all.
- [13:27]
Marty Solomon
I noticed that absolutely.
- [13:28]
Josh Bosse
And I was a little bit surprised. But then in reflecting on it, it's like, oh, I think it's that along the way she starts to look at things differently. And I wonder if it goes back to. Yeah, that shift in relationship where there's this myth and, you know, I feel like this is extremely relevant to us. There is a very easy narrative to project onto just about anything that follows the logic of accumulation. Right. And we can see it, right? You start as a little baby and you grow bigger and you gather skills and then you become an adult and then you get a partner and a house and yada, yada, yada, and it. And it follows this, this trajectory that is very easy to, like, use to frame a narrative of what your life is, what your life is about, what your life means, which, you know, to go all the way back to the, you know, OG would be. Session. Yeah. Session two episode on Ecclesiastes. Like, you know, it's about the search for meaning, right? And that is, I think, one of the reasons why so often people end up with nihilism or perceiving nihilism in Kohelet, because there is no straightforward answer to where does meaning come from? And I think part of that is that slowly Qohelet is pulling the rug out from under this overly simplistic, very Empire coded thing of just accumulation. You get more stuff, you get better, human society gets better. We all get better together because we have more stuff. And it's just. Line goes up over time. And that is how we tend to frame our narratives. Either that or it goes down and then, oh, whoops, now it's a tragedy instead of a comedy.
- [15:17]
Marty Solomon
I love that, Josh. And it's not just material accumulation. It's just. It's the idea that we need more quantitatively more.
- [15:25]
Josh Bosse
Right.
- [15:25]
Marty Solomon
More knowledge, more intellect. Because she, she literally does that. And it's about possessions and about work, but it's also about knowledge and it's about wisdom itself. So it's more like we have this. If I just had More philosophy, if I just had more understanding, if I just had more answers or more stuff. And yet the wisdom of Ecclesiastes is that it keeps calling us to presence. We need to be present and aware. I mean, that would make sense in how it relates to time, past, present, future, to just be here.
- [15:57]
Josh Bosse
Yes.
- [15:57]
Marty Solomon
It would relate to quantity of possessions and advancement and all that stuff we looked at. Just be here. There's this moment of justice and activism. Just be here in the room. Be here.
- [16:08]
Josh Bosse
It's so perfect that you connected those two things, because that presentism, or I shouldn't say presentism, because that's the El's thing anyway, the focus on being present, the way Kohelet presents this is she associates that with a healthy relationship to your possessions. Your possessions are not the arc of your life and not even just like property possessions, like your own wisdom, your own reputation or standing. And I mean, you know, connecting this with Job, it's like, yep, duh, Job, he didn't do anything wrong, but he lost everything. What does his life mean at that point? If it's just about accumulation, then everything he worked for is gone. It was all a waste of time. What does that mean? And then we have utter crisis. But when your relationship with your possessions is limited, is locked into what Kohelet presents of, well, you have this right now. Right now. You have this beautiful relationship right now. It's sunny outside, so go enjoy the day. Today you have enough to eat. Enjoy that meal. Today you have whatever you have. If your reliance on it, if your emotional relationship with your possessions is locked into the present, then that is the escape from possessions and accumulation defining the arc of your life. It forces us to look at other things and say, wait a second. Because the meaning isn't coming from this. This is just what I have right now. This is just what God has given me to enjoy right now. Whatever the meaning is, it has to be above and beyond this. And I think that's where the use again, going back to that use of the word Yotron, of something extra, some overflow, like it was what she was looking for, but it still kind of uses that language of more, like there needs to be something more. And along the way, she loses that and is like, wait a second. It's not about just more. And that. I love that. One of the big takeaways, I think for me is that, you know, as we went through this, like, I'm a pretty. I'm a pretty affable guy. I like to look at the bright side of things. Usually. And so a lot of times, just the sheer ferocity, I guess, of Qohelet's cynicism, of unflinching realism, there was something in that that really kind of pulled back some of my own personal layers. And I think especially when. When Qohelet got very, you know, abstract started talking, you know, like, famously in chapter three, you know, like, the. The eternity within, like, and even the. The multiple places where Qohelet kind of nearly explicitly compares her work to God's work in creating. And maybe this is connected back to that accumulation, desire. There is, like, this thing within me that's like, no, I want to know what God is up to in the world. I want to pierce the veil and under, you know, follow this shard of eternity stuck in my heart. I want to follow that back to the source. I do want to conquer those things. Even though in my head, I'm like, no, I don't want to do Empire. I don't want to take God's place. But it's like, ah, but I. But I do, and I know I'm connected to that. I can't get this out of me. I feel like I'm still, in a certain sense, processing that. But maybe that's not even something to process, because I think probably more accurately, that's just, you know, the human condition, it just, you know, looks different in everyone's different context that way. Qohelet has of, like, you know, the deftness with which she gets that deep. And even to some extent, like, the use of the Solomon image of this guy who, like, he had it all. And not only that, like, everyone came from around the world to say, oh, yo, this guy, he knows. Oh, Queen of Sheba rolls up, okay, this guy is actually legit. Like, isn't that my dream to have, like, you know, the world say, oh, Josh, your Torah insights. Mwah. Chef's kiss. Oh, everyone, let's just listen to Josh. Josh can. You're. You know what, Josh? Here's your job for the rest of your life. Just talk about Torah with everyone. Oh, my gosh. Wouldn't, like, I could not imagine a better life. And even though, you know, we can put all these veils on it of, like, well, you know, it's Torah. It's holy work, yada, yada, there is still that part of me that's like, yeah, but I do want. I do want that. That recognition that, again, that feeling of, like, oh, my life has been meaningful. I've touched upon something profound and in a sense, like, the accumulation narrative, I think, is often what we latch onto to give us that completion, that resolution, that sense of, like, yes, you've done enough. Kohele is just so ruthless in the way she rips that apart. And at times it's painful because I'll be tracking with her, and then she'll say something like, hey, you know what? Actually, don't. Don't be too righteous. You know, like, you can get so righteous that you lose touch with the reality around you and you're, you know, locked in your own little echo chamber and that, you know, stuff like that, that's like, oh, right. At the end of the day, I'm just a little Bible nerd in a whole wide world that is so vast and varied that, like, even if I could force my. All my beautiful Torah insights into everyone's brain, what percentage of people would that actually help? Like, again, going back to your connection, Marty, to Jesus and this. This sense of, like, pressing, urgent need to be plugged into other people's reality to not over abstract this and that. I might have gone off in the deep end here because this is, like I said, this is a lot for me, but, like, it. It opened up some layers in my own heart that were really healthy for me personally. But outside of that, I think my biggest takeaway. And this is. I mean, honestly, I feel like, Marty, the arc that you talked about with the shift between. Well, really kind of leaving us with this sense of shrewd activism. I love that lens. I love that take. And I also really love how you connected this with post exilic wisdom, because I feel like for so much of, like, the present moment we find ourselves in. That is the best description of where we are. Where it's just like, we are technically not, you know, in exile. We are, you know, all three of us live in the same country we were born in. You know, we haven't been forced out, but in terms of, like, our spiritual home or the world that we want to build, the kingdom we want to build, there is a sense of post exilic living this kind of liminal. Like, we're able to live in that, but it's not quite here yet. And we live and walk around an empire and, you know, we can't get away from it. Where. Where do we run to escape that? Like, there is so much of, you know, especially in my work with students, a lot of the questions end up coming back to that of, like, where is home? How do we understand home now? I think about that especially when we connect this to Jesus. And it's like, well, you know, they were all living in the land. They weren't exiled in that sense. But you had Rome right on top of you. So it was like, you're home, but you're not home. And that tension, I feel like, is so relevant. And to me, I think a lot of where the end of the series and as of recording, not all the episodes are out yet, but in the last couple episodes, I feel like what it really did for me was give us a better way to see ourselves. And it connects to all those things beforehand. The shrewd activism, the what actually matters, what is actually good for us if not accumulation, Whether that's material or respect or, you know, wisdom even, like, what. What is it we're going to hang our story on? And just the. The way that, you know, Kohela doesn't give us something as easy as accumulation, where it's just like, oh, look, the line went up. That's good, right? Like, that's so easy. It's so easy. And, you know, our world loves that. But this way of seeing ourselves as something temporary, something that is frail and finite, like, we so much want to run away from that and run away from death and thinking about death and all that. But, you know, especially having, you know, personally with. With my health, stuff like having had the, you know, to confront in a very real way, like, oh, I'm not going to be here forever. What is the time I have left mean? Like, there's accumulation wise, you'd be like, oh, you have less time left. That means you have to work even harder to get all the stuff you want to get done done. That's really not how God has found me in these times. It has been, you know, you just have to. Have to appreciate what you have right now. You don't have the energy to go and try and build some monumental work that's going to last for generations. I don't know if I've got that in me. You know, that sense of being constantly aware of, like, yep, I'm finite. I'm going to die. I'm going to pass away. That can lead people to nihilism. But I think they miss. Again, kind of going back to the disclaimer, they miss that. There is an assumption we have in there that, like, well, of course this individualism is the only thing that matters. But really, I think for me, what it came down to is like, we, if we put aside accumulation, how do we tell our story? And it's like, well, you know, you can Only look around at the place where you're at and engage with where you are right now. Like, what does that look like? What is it that you see that does have meaning, that does go on beyond death in other people's lives? You just have to look for it and do that work of, of actually confronting our own limitedness. And if we can accept that, then what we are also accepting is that the only part of me, you know, whatever in my life is going to continue on is going to be through other people. It's only going to be through actual, like, love and relationships. And by golly, like, that sounds a heck of a lot like the body of Christ to me. I'm an individual cell and I'm doing my thing. And that's great. All I've got is the life God put in front of me. And it doesn't need to be more profound than that. Like again, going into chapter eight and casting your bread upon the waters, all these meaningful things, we want to accumulate them. And that accumulation is for me. So people know it was me who did this. But if you flip it around and say, okay, it's not about accumulation, then it becomes just about okay, how do I give this away? The meaning will be in when I plant a seed and it grows. You know, it's a tamarisk tree. And once we see in every part of our lives, not just, you know, what we do for work or what we do in church or what officially falls under the umbrella of ministry, like when we widen out and look at our entire life under that lens of like, hey, it's not about how much I pile up and it's under my name and under, you know, it's my ip, and everyone knows it's from this brand. And that's how they know it's me, because that's no, if it's not about me and I know that I'm like the most frail part of my life, then it's about, okay, what did I plant, what did I give away that will grow into something over time? And when I see it in that way, like, again, it just starts looking so much like Jesus without quoting anything Jesus said that took me to a very Jesusy place of like, I'm just trying to give this away to other people. I'm just trying to take care of other people in this weird post exilic, like, I don't know, we aren't in the world to come where we can just live in shalom. We aren't in some fully fledged kingdom life where we can just do life the way God intended. We've got to work at it. And we don't know. We truly don't know. And just by accepting that and not being nihilistic, that's when we are like, okay, just cast your bread on the waters. It doesn't make sense. They don't get it. But that's okay. I know that it'll mean something to someone, but I don't get to control it. It's not mine to control. It's God's. That has been very freeing to consider. Yeah, I feel like I ranged about quite a bit. Any thoughts, Marty or Brent on any of that?
- [29:16]
Marty Solomon
I think that's super good. And again, I just heard a lot of the. I mean, there really is some overarching themes that all blur together because they're all related. But I kept hearing you. I kept wanting to hear you. And so I was hearing you say, be here. Be here. Like, just be present. Like, you don't know what your life's got. You don't know where this is going. You don't know what lasts. Be here, because it's the only way to make it. You're never going to. So a lot of those same themes just kept popping up in there. So let me ask you this, Josh, if you were to. One of my favorite things that you do often, you've done it in some of your episodes in the past and some of your other series is you'll take all of this and you'll distill it down into like, one or two practical. So do you have something when you think about this series, like, if we were going to give listeners carry this with you, take these two ideas with you out of this series, what would those look like for you?
- [30:14]
Josh Bosse
I would say a couple of the, like, implications that maybe get lost in some of the bigger points are that the Bible is here exhorting us, like, you just said Marty, to be here, to be present. And I think one of the really important applications of that is to, like, this is an aspect of trusting God that we often overlook because a lot of times we get in our head and we overthink these things. And something else we've talked about a lot in the series is like, we don't want to trust our emotions because, you know, we think that those are, like, the wrong types of things, are untrustworthy as opposed to our ideas and thoughts. But I think the call to be present is not just to, like, hey, enjoy what you have right now. Like, gratitude. That's great. Everyone work that into your practice. That would be great. What I would say above and beyond that, that we know we have an over fixation on things like theology and having the right answers. And those are often the primary things that pull us away from the present. But again, when we talk about being in the present, a lot of times we just think about, you know, mindfulness and gratitude. And what we don't always think about is like, hey, trust your gut. Trust what God's put in front of you. If you've got God's spirit in you, you don't have to be over worried about, like, oh, is this the right or wrong thing? Like, you know, we should all reflect on ourselves. But trust that it's okay to just work off of what's in front of you. That what your life means is not something that you figure out before you do it. You figure it out as you're doing it. It is revealed through action. Even if you just have some intuitive gut hunch of like, ooh, this is interesting, I think I should pursue this. It could be a relationship, it could be a vocation, a job, an opportunity. You know, it's okay to just work based on what's in front of you. You don't have to have some magical dream that confirms it from God. Like, I think a big part of why we were given the spirit was to empower us to just act on these things that God puts on our heart. And because our time is limited, because we don't know how much we have, we are limited and we don't know our limits. Having both of those be true at the same time can really freak us out. And we want to be protected from that. But there is no protection from that. So I would encourage everyone to don't get ahead of yourself. Be present not just in terms of appreciation, but in terms of what you're moving toward.
- [32:53]
Marty Solomon
I'll just jump in here and say, I think that's really, that's good. We always think about present. Like, even when I was saying it earlier, I was like, man, I hate that idea of presence because it's all abstract and it's beautiful. And I'm all about mindfulness. That's wonderful. But for this conversation, I was like, I want to be saying something else. And I still don't know if we're actually saying it. But you're making the point that I was wrestling with, which is this isn't just about abstract presence, gratitude and mindfulness. Like you said, this is about being present with the opportunities. It's about contentment with your physical material. It's about not second guessing everything. If I'm full of insecurity and either FOMO on the one hand or fear of screwing my life up, I don't know what that acronym is. Yeah, like we're always torn between I'm missing out on something or I'm doing something and I'm going to screw everything up. Those would be indications that I'm not present. I'm actually somewhere else. I'm not navigating what, what I would call cohelit wisdom. So I just, I just really like that, that point of we're not just talking about what almost feels like this new age. Like, hey, just be mindful and be present and be mindfully present. Which actually means physically not present. It's like, I'm mindfully present, but I'm like physically detached. Qohelet wisdom says be physically here, because this is the only thing that matters. You cannot figure out the future and you cannot be here physically in this moment with the physical things you have to offer and the physical things you have to do. And that includes my mental and emotional and spiritual and intellectual mindfulness. But there is a physical mindfulness of let yourself be here as a self. Absolutely.
- [34:39]
Josh Bosse
This kind of reminds me a little bit of what I talked about with the John six episodes. The flip side of this is we're worried that we're wasting our time or energy or whatever. And the fact is, the same way you can't figure out the future is for the very same reason why you can't figure out what will be a quote unquote waste of time. So just don't worry about that. You know, it's okay to make a mistake. Like that's the whole point of grace, is to say, okay, you make a mistake like that can be fixed, that has already been fixed. Just do what's in front of you. One of the big images that we may have even mentioned a couple times, but this really, when I was like recording the last couple episodes, it had been hitting me how much the story of Abel of Havel in the Hebrew is so tied into this book. Qohelet's main refrains, you know, have el Havilim, that's literally Abel's name. And what's the other image that Qohelet constantly goes back to is shepherding, right? Shepherding the wind. And that's what Havel was, the first shepherd. And when we look at Havel's life, you know, what did he do? He led around some sheep and then he made a sacrifice to God that God liked, and then he died. Is that enough? Is that enough for a meaningful life? And I think what Kohelet is saying is none of us can know, but that's how we have to live. And in fact, like, maybe that is the best way to live. Like, yeah, maybe your life's going to be over tomorrow. You know, even if that were true, a, you can't know it, and B, if it's not going to drag us into nihilism, then it has to propel us into, okay, this is enough. I think, you know, again, this, for me at least, is what brings us back and dredges up all the layers of just wanting to accumulate and letting that be. Our narrative is like, well, Havel, he just had so little that happened in his life. And it's like, you know what? Maybe him just being a good shepherd was enough. Maybe it wasn't even the sacrifice. Maybe it was him being a good shepherd. Is that so little that God could love a shepherd with a good heart? If that's not too little for God, then we also can't judge ourselves in that same way. This book definitely doesn't tell us to just, oh, throw your hands up in the air. You can't control anything, so don't try and live wisely. Of course live wisely. But when it comes to the things that keep us up at night, if you're struggling with anxiety and all these things, I'm not just trying to say, hey, just stop. But really, realistically, if it's something that's beyond your control, then let it be beyond your control and give yourself the thing that you do have. Give that to the world. Don't leave that hidden in your heart. And I think that is what we see in Helvel. Just, he did his thing. He gave a sacrifice to God, and I think that's enough.
- [37:42]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, he's, like, the first. I mean, obviously he's the first. It's literally the story of the first family of creation. But, I mean, he's the first person to be taken too soon, that whole cliche. And yet his life represents goodness. I don't know if we use the language of, like, faithfulness. I think we'd be right to use the language of, like, righteousness. I see his sacrifices all tied up in what he did vocationally. Like, was being a good shepherd enough offering? We're told about one sacrifice. Like, did he only get to offer one sacrifice? Yeah, but his life was essentially the example. I do love that, because that Word Havel from Kohelet really sticks with you and rises to the top, connecting it to the image of Havel. I mean, it is the quintessential. You do not know how much time you have. And yet whatever time you have could be a long time of waste. It could be a short time of absolute goodness. And enough and enough isn't quantitative. It's far more qualitative by being right. And I also love it because it encapsulates your last point, which was Havel was physically there. He was physically shepherding. He offered a physical sacrifice. He gave a physical. He was present there and ends up being the marker of justice and justice.
- [38:58]
Josh Bosse
And to that point, like, you know, Jesus calls him a prophet. You know, like, there is something powerful in that. Like, this is where it's important to have to bring in the element of faith, because it's like, yeah, you can't see that. Again, like, Kohella keeps saying, like, you can't tell someone what's going to come. You just can't. So we've just got to trust that when we're told, like, okay, walk in this way.
- [39:25]
Marty Solomon
He wasn't a prophet because of his words. He had to have been a prophet because of what life he offered.
- [39:31]
Josh Bosse
Yeah.
- [39:31]
Marty Solomon
And it may not have been quantitative a lot, but it was a life that offered a life of prophecy. Yeah, that's good.
- [39:37]
Brent Billings
Well, I don't need to talk at length about my struggles because on the heels of this series is Reid's series on the seven vices and virtues.
- [39:48]
Marty Solomon
And you feel like you're gonna get enough over there, Brent.
- [39:51]
Brent Billings
Turns out, yeah, we've already started recording some of those. And it's like, oh, I thought I had the one vice that was my. My struggle. It turns out it's pretty much all of them. Spoiler alert on that. But accumulation is something I absolutely struggle with. And what has kind of struck me is like, well, what difference does it make? You know, you don't know what's going to be a waste. That's true. Like, sometimes I'm accumulating some knowledge, and then I find myself in a conversation the next day or the next week, and it's like, oh, I can utilize that here, and that's great. But it's like, so often I'm just sitting alone in my basement reading, studying, accumulating all this knowledge, being ready for some fantasy interaction that never actually comes because I'm stuck in my basement alone. So if you're going to accumulate things, like, I'm, you know, collecting these Coins because someday I'm going to meet this coin collector and they're going to be impressed with whatever I have accumulated. It's like, well, when am I going to meet those people if I'm never out doing anything? And so I think one of the things that I have attempted to do at one point was to visit all the major league baseball stadiums. And I was doing that at a time when I could go with other people. And the accumulation of those little check marks on my list, doing that with another person was so much more meaningful than doing it by myself. Like, great. I didn't see all of them, but the ones that I did see, I saw with a dear friend. And we got to do that together. It was the challenge of getting to the city, it was the challenge of getting the tickets. Choosing, like, do we want these tickets up here? Do we want these other ones over here? And like, living with those consequences together, that was so much more meaningful. Like, it'd be cool to say that I've been to all 30 stadiums, but I find so much more meaning in the nine that I went to because I did it with somebody who I care about. So it's not like you're all wrong in accumulating things, but if you're doing it for your own glory, for your own, and so much of it being imagined, and at the end of the day, no matter how much you accumulate, there's always going to be somebody who's accumulated more. So if all you have is the self accumulation, like, it really, like, you can't ever win in that regard.
- [42:15]
Josh Bosse
Yes, that reminds me of that. The image Kohelep paints of the guy who's just accumulating stuff and he doesn't have any family to pass it on to. Like, no one's even gonna inherit this, right? Again, to go back, like, the only valve of meaning outside of, like, what things mean to you personally, that desire for your life to have meaning that goes out beyond you, that can only happen through other people. And once it goes to other people, you no longer control it. And that's the part I think we hate. You know, we want to build the statue that's like, here lies so and so. He was really cool. Everyone, you know, had to admit that he was the strongest and the best and he was really handsome. That's, you know, kind of crassly put, but that's the image, the ultimate image of what accumulation gets you. And the fact is that that just doesn't exist. Even when it does exist, it's not. It's not the thing you were looking for anyway. It has to go through other people. And that means we have to make peace with it being out of our hands. And I think that is. That is where the true freedom lies.
- [43:16]
Brent Billings
So how do we take this wisdom that we have received from Qohelet and apply it in kind of a practical way, in a modern sense? Like, this book was not written to our world. Exactly. But I think we have a lot to take away from it. How can we use this for our own spiritual formation, for our own lives? Like, how do we live in the world with what we've taken from Qohelet and make our lives more meaningful?
- [43:43]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, I know Marty has some thoughts here, but I would say all of this is really just, I think, a description of discipleship, like just giving what we have to others.
- [43:53]
Marty Solomon
Or at the very least, it's like one of the only ways we know to learn this.
- [43:57]
Josh Bosse
Yes.
- [43:57]
Marty Solomon
I don't know how else you learn this and own this in any other way. So we're going to use this. I mean, usually we do this conversation in our intros and capstones, but it's because we do a poor job of leveraging the moment. We're not going to miss the moment. Kohelet's taught us to be here right now.
- [44:14]
Josh Bosse
Yes.
- [44:15]
Marty Solomon
Perfect.
- [44:16]
Josh Bosse
Yes.
- [44:17]
Marty Solomon
So we're going to use this as an opportunity just to connect some of those dots that I rarely spend enough time connecting because I don't want stuff to sound like a commercial. So we're going to acknowledge that up front. But we talk a lot about spiritual formation, or at least we want to. I mean, Josh just said discipleship. This looks like discipleship. Well, discipleship is going to start, at least for us, in the Bama corners of Impact Campus Ministries. We believe that discipleship starts with some sense of spiritual formation, some sense of spiritual practice. We don't want it to stay there. Then it's just the abstract mindfulness that we were talking about before. It's just the abstract gratitude that Josh was referencing. But it starts with, like, this, grounded. I know who God is because I take time to remind myself in the midst of everything else that goes on. I know wisdom because I take time to tap into it. I know the voice of the shepherd talking about shepherds. I know the voice of the shepherd with a capital S because I take time to talk with the shepherd and to listen to the shepherd. So we talk all the way back in session one about creating a space. In fact, Josh, you helped me do the reboot of that episode.
- [45:26]
Josh Bosse
Oh, yes. That was a lot of fun.
- [45:28]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. We talked about creating a space because God will fill that space. Ecclesiastes is like the advanced 500 level grad class to what. What comes out of that. But let us remind ourselves here at Kohele, if we ever think we're going to tap into this without creating space, to be familiar and intimate with wisdom with a lowercase W and wisdom as a person with a capital W, let us just be reminded of what we call the special sauce here at Impact. Like, we want to be people that are really good at creating space and listening for God and knowing God intimately. Secondly, I would say you talked and you even brought this out. You did an actually pretty good job, Josh. I miss this all the time. You actually nailed it a couple times in this series where you connected the dots of what we're talking about to the vocation of these college students and these graduates that leave our college campuses. We work with college students all the time. Then they graduate and they leave and they go do work in the world. And so much of the conversation for Kohelet is about the work we're doing in the world and why it matters and the places that don't matter, but we think that it matters and that whole thing. And so we would be missing a huge opportunity if we weren't thinking about the wisdom of Kohele in our lives in relationship to discipleship and never thinking about college students. And I know that we've been talking about this. It's still coming, guys. I'm still doing grad work. I'm taking good notes. I'm going to start writing some stuff and trying to connect the dots to what does it mean to take this stuff that Josh has been talking to us about and give it to college students in a way that they are, like, deeply rooted in this wisdom. They're deeply present in the now. They're not wasting their life. They're making their life count because they don't know where it's headed and they don't know how long they have. So make sure that they're staying in the room with the king. They're shrewdly engaged in activism. Who do we need to do that more other than these young people who are on our college campuses graduating and entering a world to make new stuff and do new things and help us steward the world? So I would say if I were to summarize that point, campus ministry, y', all, that would be nice. Campus ministry for the wind.
- [47:55]
Brent Billings
And there's a lot of Intentionality behind that. Like, you have to intentionally spend time in spiritual formation. Some of us will default to that.
- [48:04]
Marty Solomon
Yes.
- [48:04]
Brent Billings
Some of us will want to only do that and then never go out. Some of us will want to only spend time with other people. We'll always be out and never spending time on our own spiritual formation. So it's intentionally setting time for both of those things. Because otherwise you're just. You're accumulating friendships or you're accumulating knowledge. And if you don't mix those things together, then you can't ever actually share anything and bring more meaning to other people's lives.
- [48:30]
Marty Solomon
Absolutely.
- [48:31]
Josh Bosse
A million percent. And Kohelet has pushed me to do this especially, but to like, simplify things down to a practical level, which, you know, I'm always so known for being succinct and practical and to the point. But coalette especially. But just the Holy Spirit in general has been moving me toward this place where, like, what I constantly talk to my students about is, hey, are you doing spiritual practice? No. Okay, let's grow those. Oh, you're doing spiritual practices. How do you bring other people into it? And it's just that I honestly think that is maybe not the fullness of discipleship, but that is the base idea of discipleship, being in God's presence together with other people.
- [49:15]
Marty Solomon
Yeah.
- [49:16]
Josh Bosse
And that's. That's it. It doesn't have to be more than that.
- [49:18]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, absolutely. And Josh just mentioned it. He mentioned his students. He's referring to the students that he works with. So while we're here, we're not going to miss the opportunity as well. I don't know how many of the. I'm like coining a term here that I actually hate. Actually hate, but never the behemoth. The folks that have made it all the way to the end and are with us in real time, I don't know how many of them are college students, but if you're out there and you are disconnected for whatever reason, if you got a campus ministry, that's great. But if you are looking for community, you've tried local campus ministries, for whatever reason, they're not a good fit. You don't even know. You haven't tried. You don't even know where to start, whatever it might be. Maybe you're the type of person, for whatever reason that you know what, showing up at the campus ministry water balloon fight is just not going to be like. You are just not made for that. You struggle with different kinds of social anxieties or neurodivergence or and an online space, a virtual space is simply safer. And whatever it might be for you, that's what Josh does. We moved him into a virtual space because of his health journey and his immunocompromised situation. We created our virtual campus ministry. And you work with quite a sizable group of students now, right, Josh?
- [50:42]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, yeah, it's growing all the time and thankfully it's not gotten too out of hand. But I think we're at over 20 students now. I just had three more that I think met up with or were at one of the meet and greets in Texas, I believe I just reached out to today. But yeah, and I would add to like the groups that you mentioned. Like I have a couple students that are actually like very involved in their local ministry and they still want to be involved in the Olam ministry. Not because, you know, their local stuff just isn't good enough, but because they're like, hey, you know what, the people I'm with in my community, they're not really into the behemoth thing, but I want to figure out how to take Bama stuff and apply it. That is also something I love. Help and walk students through. And it has been just, you know, successful in so many ways that I did not see coming. And I think probably the most succinct evidence of that. And I need to be succinct because man, I could gush about all the cool stuff that the spirit is doing in students for a while, but in general, like the biggest evidence of that is that so often all I am doing is encouraging students in what they're already doing and maybe being like, hey, like I said before, hey, maybe deepen the spiritual practice by adding in this or hey, why don't you try and involve someone new in this practice, make it less of a solo thing. But most of the time it is just, I am just watching the spirit work in college students lives and honestly just helping them not overthink it, not let that slip to the back burner and tell them like, no, no, you're doing the right. Have to be cautious or wary here. You can go full steam ahead. You're on the right track. Just keep going. Yeah, it is incredible to see what students are doing and just how much. And this goes back to your point about like why college students specifically there's a lot of demographics and also to this point when we say college students, we don't even necessarily mean, you know, you are strictly a college student. I've got some non traditional students that are People that may have even not, you know, gone to college for whatever reason. You know, college is expensive. A lot of people, you know, have found a different path. But in that life stage. You're absolutely right, Marty. Like, there is like just, I think circumstances in the present moment. Like students, by and large are really interested in making this stuff a part of their lives and really keyed into how do I make this real, how do I make this relevant? And that is just. It's so the right question. It's such the right conversation for what we do here at Bama.
- [53:27]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, absolutely.
- [53:28]
Brent Billings
And the trajectory of your work, Josh, has led us to this point where as we release this episode, we're actually looking for an associate to work with you. Right?
- [53:37]
Josh Bosse
Yes. And this also ties into the health conversation because I have a bit of an update, which is that unfortunately, I have once again been diagnosed with cancer. And now that I've said that, that's the bad news part. Thankfully, after that comes a bunch of good news, which is that it is not the old cancer metastasized. That was something my doctors were really worried about. It is Hodgkin lymphoma, which is among some of the easiest cancers to treat. Another bullet that we dodged is that people who are immunocompromised, especially post transplant, usually lymphoma, it's pretty common. And when it arrives, because of immunocompromised stuff, it can be more complicated. But I have a very. From everything they can see, I have a very straightforward case of Hodgkin lymphoma. Treatment should be relatively straightforward too. And I've got a couple friends who are doctors. And Marty, you even told me you connected with a listener who's also a doctor and knows this stuff. And across the board they've been like, oh, okay, you'll be fine. Hodgkin lymphoma, you're situated like, yeah, this is not on the scarier side of cancer. So that's been a big blessing. But even with that, I mean, one of the main symptoms I deal with, even without cancer, but especially, you know, being on pretty soon I'll probably be on chemo and radiation, is that it really makes you fatigued. And I'm already very fatigued on a day to day basis. So I definitely need help engaging with this huge blessing that has been just blowing up in ministry terms. And I mean, it's been something that we've been wanting to pursue for a while. So, yeah, we are looking to expand the team and have other people join in to help me, especially as my own health kind of slows down, how much I'm able to do ministry wise. And yeah, we can really, really use a lot of people partnering with us in that. I know you had more to say about the campus ministry stuff that we do in general, Marty, but that's what's happening specifically in my neck of the woods.
- [55:55]
Marty Solomon
There's so much that I love about that. A, I get asked all the time about how you're doing and an update. So we get to give everybody that health update with some of the bad news and some of the good ish news and add that in there. But second of all, it does give some context to we do want to make sure that that team is healthy and keeps going. We want to make sure that Josh is healthy physically and everywhere else. It is a situation where if you would love to be involved with that either because you're wanting to submit an application for that position to work with Josh to come alongside of that ministry, to be involved in some fundraising to do those kind of things, we'll put a link in there that will send you to the application link of our website or a job posting or whatever it is that we have. The link in there that'll be in the show notes. If you listen to this later and it's no longer relevant, it won't be there. But if there's something there in the show notes, you'll have that. But secondly, if you want to support that because that position is going to require fundraising, that position is going to be the same kind of support raise position that we always have. And here's the cool thing about donating. The way you donate tells us what you care about. All the money is what helps us. Like you don't have to worry about sending the money to the right place. The way you donate your money is what tells us we can communicate with you about the things that matter to you. If your heart is connected to Josh Bossay and his situation, you can donate to Josh Bossay. And we know that the thing that you care about and the way we can communicate with you as a donor is about Josh and the boss, a family. If it's like I want to support the larger Bama ministry and make sure this thing keeps going, you can donate there and we know to communicate with you about the right things. But this is a good example of one place that Josh is trying to take a step, take care of himself, but also make sure the ministry keeps growing, keeps thriving. So all those things and all those ways that you can help us are going to be in the show. Notes from applications to donations and everything in between. And I would make the point, I think when you guys connect the dots. We have campus ministry, by the way, as a side note, as a little P.S. before we leave, just so all you college students out there know or people that would want to volunteer. We got college ministry all over the country. Not all. All. All over the country. We got about 12 teams that are out there. So if you're in Eugene, Oregon, if you are in Salt Lake City, Utah, if you are on the Palouse in Moscow, Idaho or Pullman, Washington, we got a team in South Bend, Indiana. They were actually just asking us the other day, can you let people know that we're here? If you're in South Bend, Indiana, we got a great impact team out there. Tom, Jill, Don, they love Bama. They've been on all the, all of them have been on the study tours and the trips over there. Like they're all in Bama wise, so you'd be in good hands. We got a team down in Fort Myers, Florida. We've got four teams in Pennsylvania. We got a team here in Cincinnati. We've got a new team launching in Phoenix. We got a team we're hoping that is launching in Centralia, Washington. We got kind of stuff kind of all over. You can find all that on the website, but we never really take time to mention the fact that those are locations. If you're listening and you're in South Bend, Indiana, maybe you never knew, now you don't. So we should do a better job of mentioning that every now and then. But there you go. There you go. Brent Billings and.
- [59:20]
Josh Bosse
Well, and something I want to add on to that too is that if this is kind of the first time, you're really remembering that like, oh yeah, they do other stuff other than make a great podcast. I love to listen to, like Marty was saying, donation and support is huge. But also if you're just interested in being plugged into that, I have a newsletter that I send out throughout the year, usually about once a quarter. And that's where I'm about to write a newsletter telling my supporters, hey, I'm going through this whole cancer journey and as we go through it, I'm going to keep sending out information that way I'm probably not going to keep talking about it on the podcast because, you know, it's. There's only so often we need to do a full life check in. But yeah, if you want to be more plugged in or just learn more about what the heck's going on. I don't have a super streamlined way for you to just, you know, click and be added to my newsletter mailing list. There's probably a way to do that. Maybe Brent Billings has some shortcut. And in the show notes, there will be a button you can press, but if not, if that button is there, just, you know, you can send me an email midrossjoshmail.com and yeah, if you send me, shoot me an email and say, hey, put me on your newsletter list. I want to keep up to date. That's how you'll get stories about students that we connect with. And even here, when we have specific needs in the ministry, like this one with the associate minister, or if we try and do more exciting projects because it's a virtual ministry, all the students are very spread out, but every now and then they start talking like, oh, what if we got together, did a little big student meeting? And, you know, I'm all for that, but man, that's going to involve a lot of plane tickets and things like that. I don't know exactly how we'll make that happen, but, you know, there's a lot of cool stuff. A lot of the. Some of the coolest, most radical ideas for how to turn this Baymas stuff into real action and real relationship I've seen happening just from students throwing out ideas. So if you want to be plugged into that and more aware of what's going on, more able to help specifically, yeah, get on my newsletter. I'll. I'll hook you all up.
- [61:35]
Brent Billings
Cancer or not, we don't like any of our team members to do their ministry by themselves. And so, yes, you know, there's all sorts of reasons why we want to get an associate going for you, Josh. So that is the story for today, I think.
- [61:50]
Josh Bosse
Yep.
- [61:50]
Marty Solomon
I think we're in good hands.
- [61:51]
Brent Billings
All right, well, I will throw as much of that into the Show Notes as possible. I'll see what I can do for your sign up, Josh. I've got a few other things that we'll throw in there, but all of that will be on our website@bamadiscipleship.com this episode, I believe, is episode 465. So you can do baymoddcepship.com 465 is your shortcut to the Show Notes, if it's not already in your podcast Apple app. But thank you for joining us on the BayW podcast this week and thank you for riding with us for this series on Cohellet. It's been a good time together. We will talk to you again soon.