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The BEMA Podcast
467: Vice & Virtue — Introduction
00:58:25
The Image of God Building the Kingdom of God
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- [00:00]
Reed Dent
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Brent Billings
This is the Bama podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we are with Reed Dent to embark on a journey through the vices and virtues and probably convictions. I'm actually terrified of this series. Reid, so what are we doing here?
- [00:21]
Reed Dent
Are you terrified of peering into the depths of your own human nature? Brent?
- [00:26]
Brent Billings
I'm like, my parents smoked when I was growing up, so I don't smoke because that's gross. And I had bronchitis and I. And I don't drink because my parents were alcoholics and. And I saw the dangers then. So I don't. I just don't even have any vices. What are you talking about? Reed?
- [00:39]
Reed Dent
That's why. That's why we need to do this series, Brent, is. Because. Not sure if you're aware, but smoking and drinking are actually not listed as. As vices. Those are habits, maybe creature comforts that have varying degrees of healthiness or not. But, you know, the Desert Fathers were not writing specifically. Well, I mean, about smoking cigarettes, at least. I don't know. It's. It's all wrapped up in there, but it's. It's. It's broader and it's deeper than that. So.
- [01:12]
Marty Solomon
Yep.
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Reed Dent
Yeah, yeah, we're doing a series on the. The vices. The seven capital vices is what we're going to be calling them, in line with the tradition. And then seven virtues that kind of get divided into the four cardinal virtues is how they're known, and then the three theological virtues, which we will. We'll get to all that a little bit later in this episode.
- [01:34]
Marty Solomon
Well, I'm going to jump in here and say, how'd this even get through the policing wall? This is the Bayma podcast. We do text read. We do text. We don't do topical. How'd we get here?
- [01:45]
Reed Dent
Yeah, because I just decided to go rogue. I was like, marty, look over there for a second while I insert my stuff in the dock here, and then it'll just come up later. Yeah, I mean, it's. It's definitely worth pointing out that this is not. It is. Actually. We're gonna. And this is one of the things that I've been happy to see. I don't want to spoil it, but it. There is some deeply interwoven Bama ism with the vices and virtues that we'll see as we go through the series. But this is a little different. We're not just selecting a single text or portion of the text to go through. There is no enumerated list in The Bible of the vices we're going to be talking about, it's a tradition that's developed over time even of the four cardinal virtues. Those are not originally biblical. They actually have their roots in Plato. The Republic is the first place where the so called cardinal virtues come up and then they later show up in some apocryphal books and then yeah, they get developed in the Christian tradition. And so yeah, there's no text specifically. And we're going to be using some unusual sources. I mean the real thinking on vice and virtue, like I said a second ago, starts with some Greek philosophers. We got some popes involved, we got a bunch of monks. That was a very like monkey thing to do was think about vice and virtue. Some of the old church doctors. Have you ever heard of St. Thomas Aquinas? Dude did some serious work on vice and virtue. So we're looking at some different, we're pulling from originally some different names, some different sources. We don't have a lot of rabbis involved this time.
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Marty Solomon
Go ahead and say it. I see the note in our notes.
- [03:32]
Reed Dent
Or, or Rob Bell or Ray Vanderla.
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Brent Billings
Or you know, or Ray.
- [03:38]
Reed Dent
And there are some, there are definitely some possible pitfalls here that I think our Bama other voices and our kind of Bama way will help us av because if you think about, you know, you read about vice and virtue, it can get very, I mean it's very philosophical. It can get very abstract as opposed to like concrete and actionable, which is what we'd like to talk about here. It can definitely be concerned like it almost exclusively if you let it with just like sort of these inner workings, desires and motivations, like an intellective kind of thing. Of course, as you actually look at it and think about how it plays out in your own life, the desire, the motivation, the action are all very intertwined and you see like reinforcing cycles kind of developing. That's part of the way that vices and virtues get grown in an individual. You can definitely do an extremely individualistic approach to vice and virtue, which we're going to try to avoid just being purely individualistic. Although it's, I mean maybe it goes without saying that communities are made up of individuals. So there's again like a cyclical kind of nature to how these things play out within us as individuals and us in the communities. But I, I guess this is going to be going all the way back to episode zero where you talked about the eastern and the Western. Right. The right hand and the left hand.
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Marty Solomon
Yeah.
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Reed Dent
And I will Be the voice to say the Western hand, like, I want to bring it back. It does play a part, and it is helpful, especially in delving into the depths of human nature. I mean, the Eastern mindset, which is where the biblical text comes from. That's really great for reading the biblical text. That's how we do it. And then Western philosophy thought a lot about our better and worser sides of being people in the world. And so that's really what we're going to be looking at in. In the series. What is it to be a person and specifically a person made in the image of God is kind of where we're going with all of this.
- [05:43]
Marty Solomon
I think you've caught me at a great time for this series as we record this. I'm in the. I mean, I'm going into my second year in my grad work. I'm at a Catholic institution. I have a different relationship right now. Studying things like Christian tradition, particularly from a Catholic perspective. I am reading a whole lot more Thomas Aquinas than I ever have in my whole life. I did not see that come in your connection back to episode zero. This is a great place and a great example to show how that left hand can provide some real color and. And depth, and there's a proper place to have some of those conversations. So you caught me at a good time. I think I'm ready.
- [06:22]
Reed Dent
Yeah. I mean, it is a. There is a lot of Catholic thinking that is gone into vice and virtue. It is not exclusively or originally a Catholic tradition, but Catholic tradition has definitely just done a lot of work thinking about this, and I think it's worthwhile work, as we'll see as we go along. So let's talk about vice for a minute. We're going to talk about vice, then we're going to talk about virtue. Then we're going to talk about why we're doing what we're doing. So what comes to mind? We've already gotten a little bit from Brent. He thinks about smoking and drinking. What comes to mind when you think of vice?
- [06:58]
Marty Solomon
Oh, Brent's already given his. I should jump in here. When I think of vice, I think about that thing. I mean, words like temptation come to mind. When I think of a vice. I think about that thing that's just sitting there always whispering to me, always. My vice is that thing that I have this tendency to like, oh, yeah, give me a little bit of that. Give me a little bit of that. Give me some more of that. That's what I think of when I.
- [07:19]
Reed Dent
Think of Vice, Brent.
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Brent Billings
I mean, a little bit more abstractly, I think I would say something that I have convinced myself that I need and will justify it in that sense that is actually probably harmful or at best a distraction from other things that are better for me to focus on.
- [07:39]
Reed Dent
Yeah. It's interesting you talked about what you need, because I think what we'll see as we look at the vices is that they actually have a good end in mind. Like there is something good that we want. And usually our way of going about it, it's like the word inordinate gets thrown around a lot. It's. It's too much. It's at the wrong time in the wrong situation. But tendency, Marty, I think that's, that's where we're going to settle for a second. The word vice is actually. It's got a Latin root to it that means like a, you know, a flaw or a defect. But I was, I was talking about this with Elle a couple of weeks ago, and she brought up the idea of a blemish. Like a blemish and fabric. And I thought this was a great way of thinking about vice. So I was just at the beach last weekend, and we were out there with Leanne's family. We're in North Carolina. And we were back at the beach house after we'd been out there, you know, hunting crabs at night. And we put on a movie. My boys put on Jurassic park. And they have two cousins who are younger than them, Gus and Hattie. Hattie is the youngest of the group. She's the only girl in the group. She's six. And we had snacks out for the kids. And she's eating through a bowl of cherries. And, you know, you pick off the stem, you eat the cherry, and then you got to get the pit out of your mouth and then you put it into the bowl. Right. And so she's eating these cherries. And then the part of the movie. You guys have seen Jurassic Park.
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Marty Solomon
Yes.
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Reed Dent
So you remember that part where Newman from Seinfeld who's. He's. He's trying to like, steal the embryos. Spoiler alert for a 30 year old movie. And his jeep goes off the road and it's all muddy and rainy and thunderstorm. And then there is this. I don't remember the name of the dinosaur, but it's got that like, fan that comes out.
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Marty Solomon
Yep.
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Reed Dent
Like from behind its neck and it's shooting Newman in the eyes with that, like, gooey poison. And it like paralyzes him and it's like A scary part, right? And so Hattie grabs the pillow off of the couch at her nbnb and holds it up, like, tight to her face so she can't see it. Well, then later we're putting the kids to bed, cleaning up, and I'm like, oh, shoot, this pillow has cherry juice all over it. And I'm like, scrubbing. And we're using different kinds of, you know, stain removers, and it's just, it, it's not coming out and it has, like, become a part of the fabric. And that's how Elle talked about it was. It's like a blemish. That's not. It's not natural to the thing. And it, it, it technically is like, still its own. Like if you did a microscopic examination, it's still a different thing, but it's so interwoven with it that it's not very easy to separate from it at all. It's kind of become ingrained. And so it's like, like you said, a tendency that's not, I don't think, native. I think we acquire these things and then we reinforce them the way that we do with habits. I want to point out that this is different from a concept of sin. We need to separate vice and sin. So, Marty, let's talk about sin for a second. And I know you've talked about this on the podcast before, but let's talk about biblical Jewish concept of sin. What is that?
- [10:40]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, so kind of over and against the abstract Western way of thinking. Like, sin is kind of this thing that is a part of us. It's this abstract thing for the Jewish mind. Sin instead is usually far more of a concrete. It's an action. It's something that I do rather than something that I am or something that is in me like a blemish is often how the Western world would describe sin, at least in the evangelical world maybe. But the Jewish world would have more of a. This is something that I do. And not that they would never talk about sin as a thing, but sin is far more the action primarily than a thing itself, where in our world, I think it gets flipped.
- [11:20]
Reed Dent
Totally. And I want to maintain that. I'm actually glad you brought that up because I know that blemish or stain that has some connotations within some atonement theories. And that's not what I'm trying to get at when I say that hopefully people are picking up on that. But thinking about a vice as different from a sin, think about like headwaters for a naturally spring fed river. Right. It's a thing from which those sins can spring. And those actions that we do, they can reinforce that sort of ingrained tendency in us. But I just want to say, like, to struggle with a vice, to be tempted to something, to even have like a sort of unshakable or very difficult to shake inclination toward the thing is not. It's not a sin in and of itself. And Aquinas did work to separate these things. And it doesn't mean just because vice is not sin, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't care or that we should be passive about it, because it is.
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Marty Solomon
The source, it is the origin of the headwaters.
- [12:21]
Reed Dent
Yeah, that's right. And so there is a kind of constant vigilance, to quote Mad Eye Moody, and also the Bible that we have to have about these things and how they're playing with us, playing on us, how we are reinforcing them. And so in this series, we're talking about the seven capital vices. And this is why, by the way, I want to be seven deadly sins. No, we're not calling them that. There is a certain Catholic tradition behind why they are called the deadly sins. If you want to get into like mortal sins versus venial sins, but we're not going into all that. They are vices and they're called capital. You remember your, you know, your word study on capital, the Capitoline Hill? Yep, it's the head, because it is the thing that is seen as the source from which other things come, other bad things come. And so in our series here, we're going to be going with the wasn't always. So we'll talk about that in a second. But our seven capital vices, lust, gluttony, avarice, also called greed, sloth, vainglory, which I want to use instead of pride for reasons that I'll say later. Envy, wrath, and those are the seven. And then traditionally, the sin of or the vice of pride is kind of seen as the thing. And if people have like read CS Lewis, they're familiar with this. It is the thing that gives rise to all of the other things. So what do we think of this list? Just knee jerk off the top of your head. What's your reaction to the list as a whole or to any of these in particular?
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Marty Solomon
I like the framework of vicis, as I. I've only thought of this list in terms of seven deadly S. I like the distinction. I already am finding that helpful. As I look at this list, all.
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Brent Billings
I'm thinking about is whether or not I need to update My spreadsheet in the order in which we release these episodes.
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Reed Dent
Well, so some of the thinking, I.
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Brent Billings
Guess here's my real question that stems from that instinct to look at my spreadsheet. Is there a particular order to these things? Is there some sort of build to them that matters as far as how we release this and talk about it, or are they kind of just standalone?
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Reed Dent
It depends who you ask. And that's actually why I want to talk about some of the history, because some have, like. So. So let's just go into it a little bit. So these first pop up as eight kind of evil thoughts or eight just thoughts in this guy named Evagrius of Pontus, who was a monk who lived out in the desert, like 4th century AD or CE. And then this guy after him who they were related through some common connections. St. John Cassian was also a monk who lived among the desert fathers. He came along and took these eight thoughts and very much started to, like, catalog them and systematize them and think about, is there an order in which one gives way to another and gives way to another? He was, like, coupling them up. And so he saw the, like, gluttony and lust, they went together. Sadness actually used to be that was considered one of the vices. And then there was this vice that they called acedia. And those kind of turned into the vice of sloth, which we'll talk about another time. But he saw some of them as going together or, like, noted that lust and gluttony and avarice, those are, like, more carnal. They have to do with things that you can obtain or consume or reach out and touch. And then other ones like sloth or vainglory or envy, those have to do more with, like, the internal sort of spirit of a person more. They don't necessarily have, like, a specific object in mind. And then he was like, talking about, you know, breaking down. Well, within gluttony, we have, like, four subsets of gluttony that could be this or this or this or this. And we'll get into those things later. But it really started to get more cataloged. And then when you get to Gregory, Gregory the Great, who was actually born son of a Roman senator, 6th century.
- [16:24]
Marty Solomon
About 200 years later.
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Reed Dent
Yep. Couple hundred years later, he then kind of took on a monastic lifestyle. And then he later became the first pope. I mean to say Pope Gregory the first, not Gregory is the first pope. And he was the one who coined what is basically now the modern list of the seven vices that we have and then he was the first one to say, pride is the thing that gives birth to all of these things. It's sort of the aboriginal vice. And then Aquinas came along. He's the last name in our list here in terms of the history. Much later, I mean, this, this was like 700 years later, Aquinas came along and he wrote the Summa Theologica, which is an absolutely massive volume of systematic scholastic theology. I actually tried reading some of this just because I wanted to read the firsthand source. And oh, my goodness, you guys, I am not smart enough, and I am way too, I guess, modern 2025 to like, it is very difficult. But what you get the impression of is this dude, this is like awe inducingly thorough, where he was like, okay. And so envy is like this, and there's this kind, and it works like this, and it comes from this and it relates to this and this way, and is there anything else we should say about it? And this voice would say this, and this voice would say this. And so there was a whole lot of thinking going on about the vices. And that sort of settled into like. I mean, that's, that's probably the primary work that a lot of, like, especially Catholic theologians will look at and they'll say, what did Aquinas say? And so I'd say all of that, though, just to say, especially thinking about monks, right? These are people who were escaping from, like, common, popular, civilized life. They're withdrawing from the world or they're thinking about these things in a very scholastic kind of context that, like, if you're not careful, can become. It scratches an itch. Like we like lists, right? And we like the very neat sequence of like, well, if you start with lust, then that leads to gluttony. And so if you can just master lust, then you'll never, like, you know, you'll never struggle with gluttony or something like that. And it can definitely get too systematic, it can get too clean. And even some of them talked about it, like, as almost this pathway where if you progress through these things and if you master the different virtues and if you escape from all the vices, then this is like a way of ascending into heaven or descending into hell. I just want to say, like, that's not our aim in looking at it, right? Because I think, like, if we just take an hour, take half an hour and like, think about any of these vices or virtues and just how they play out in your own life, and I think what you'll see is that like human nature is pretty complex and that rather being like an Excel sheet where because they would talk about, well, this vice has this particular equal opposite virtue. And so if you just do that, then you'll overcome it in this way. And while I think that is helpful, I think it's less like this Excel spreadsheet and more like this interconnected web. And there are these nodes that are connecting in all these different ways, which we're going to explore in the series that I think are going to become helpful for understanding what is it that we're after. Why do we do what we do and give some real just attention. And to recognize too that in each of us these vices and virtues can kind of be cohabitational. It's not like you either are this or that, but there's a mix. There's a blend of good and bad going on within us, kind of struggling within us at any time. Anything else to add on vice before we move on to talking about virtue?
- [20:02]
Marty Solomon
If I hear what you're saying, we're going to step back and paint with poetic broad strokes. We're not going to get caught up in the different ways that in different ages of history this really got systematized or the Western mind loved to do that in the classical period. We're going to step back and do that.
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Reed Dent
Our aim is to more think about our present context and use some of the wisdom of people who thought about these things before. But this is not just a historical survey of what these very. This, this is about as historical survey as we're going to get this kind of point by point thing that I just did, we're going to try to be connecting it more to. And that's part of what we're going to do is think about the depths and dimensions that maybe particularly apply in 2025 as opposed to 1200 or 400 is what our, our aim is going to be.
- [20:46]
Marty Solomon
I'm ready, baby.
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Reed Dent
We're also going to be talking about virtue. Virtue, like vice, also comes from a Latin word which just means so virtus, the that first part, vir, that's the Latin word for man, not humanity generally, but specifically male. And virtue basically just means manliness, which I totally, from the get go recognize that that is problematic. We'll see how it evolved from its original, like Greek thinkers and in Roman culture into Christian thought. And it kind of morphed a little bit. So let's talk about that. In Roman culture, the idea of virtue was very much connected to duty, the public duty. It was very much connected to this sense of like heroism. Heroism is not necessarily a bad thing. Like that kind of public serving hero who is very strong. You might think of classically like a, I don't know, gladiatorial sort of figure who's like big and imposing and does things for all the noble reasons. That was a virtuous person. And before we move on, it just made me think like, where in today, I'm curious if you guys have a thought for just talk of virtue or virtuous, you know, like virtue as an emphasis. Where does that show up in our culture today? Because some of these words are not really words that we use very often now. Words that we'll get into like prudence and temperance, etc. So just just thoughts about where, where we see virtue in our culture now.
- [22:21]
Marty Solomon
Well, I am afraid to give my thoughts publicly on a podcast episode. I've been thinking about this a little bit separate from your series. I was not thinking about this in relationship to your series at all. But I feel like virtue is something that has been lost on our culture in many ways. We get caught up in socio political ideological conversations about ethics, about right and wrong. It has like this, this pure ethic over here or this pure ethic over here. But in the midst of all of that, what's been lost on some level is the idea of some transcendent or deeply rooted virtue like goodness. So we know how to identify everything. This is good, this is bad, this aligns with what I think this isn't. That's evil. This is. But we've lost some sense of. And again, a lot of these words are very classical, which just throws us into more of a tailspin because you're like, wait, it doesn't feel like it fits the ideology that I might cling to or. But I think that's the tragedy, that somehow my gut is trying to tell me. But what just happened to sticking up for the folks that need somebody to be their friend and confidant and defender and protect? My words are going to fail me.
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Reed Dent
Here very quickly, but there's a virtue for that. We're going to talk about it.
- [23:43]
Marty Solomon
Love it. That's where my mind goes.
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Reed Dent
Yeah. Okay. Brent, you got any thoughts about it?
- [23:47]
Brent Billings
I mean, just that I don't really hear people talk about it. It's not the driving motivation for anybody doing anything.
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Reed Dent
So part of our trip out to North Carolina, the re. The main reason we went is that my wife's cousin's husband, his name's John, he's in the Army. His career Army. He was promoted to lieutenant colonel earlier this year, and they just moved back to Fort Bragg. And so he is taking over a battalion there. And they have. The reason why he went out there is because they have this. It's called a change of command ceremony. It's like an hour long. They have the whole battalion out on this parade field in formation, and they've got, like, all of this pomp and circumstance around it. It's a really big deal. And they give speeches, right? The outgoing commander gives a speech, and the incoming commander, John, he gives a speech, and they, like, pass the flags. And there's this whole, like, strong sense of symbolism and meaning behind it. And then the. In the speeches, I was struck by how, you know, it's all going through the vice and virtue filter in my head because that's what I've been reading about. And I'm like, oh, this is all very, on its face, virtuous kind of talk where they talk about courage and they talk about what you said, Marty. The kind of defending of these certain people or even certain ideals. And I was like, I don't really. I don't know where else in the culture it is talked about like this. And I'm not trying to make an idol out of the army. Like, I. I'm also not gonna demonize the army. I'm not getting into a whole talk about that at this moment. But just to say that there is something about the way that they talk about these things and really take them seriously as a part of, like, not just what you do, but who you are deep down, that is attractive. And I think we could stand to get something of that back, even if it's just in our church communities, you know, the way that we kind of uphold these things and talk about them. I remember this is a little bit off the beaten path, but the first time I watched the Lord of the Rings with my kids, and, you know, you got Aragorn up there at the end of Return to the King as they're getting ready to storm the Black Gate, and he's on his horse and he's giving his speech. And my boys, I mean, they were 10, 11, 12 at the time. They don't know about all these things, right? But they were just. I looked over, they were literally almost involuntarily drawn to the edge of their seat because they were getting so. I don't know. There's something in it, right? And I think it speaks to something deep down about the way that we ought to be in which that even is. Right. Difficult. That's a difficult cultural conversation to have that there is a way we ought to be.
- [26:25]
Marty Solomon
Yep.
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Reed Dent
Okay. So that. That was. It's not all army. It doesn't have to be all army. And the later Christian thinkers, they picked up this idea of virtue, and they kind of shift it from being less about, like, ideal sort of warrior hero and more to thinking about the idea of, like, kind of an internal sort of. The excellence is the idea. So the Greek idea of virtue, it uses this word. You're gonna have to forgive me, because I don't speak Greek. The word is arete. A R E T E is how we. Yep, yep. It means excellence in. Specifically in fulfilling whatever a thing's purpose is. Things have a purpose, people have a purpose, and virtue is the thing that serves you in, like, being excellent at that purpose. And again, like, I realize we're already. We can get into this purely kind of abstract state of thinking about moral perfection or whatever, and we're going to try to dodge that through our series by connecting these issues to the text and to talking about real practice. But what do you think if we're talking about. If virtue has something to do with excellence toward a purpose, what do you think is the purpose of a human being? What is the purpose of a person? And, like, what. What is your, you know, your Bible education tell you is being a person is about?
- [27:45]
Brent Billings
I think the traditional idea that I was given for a long time was you're supposed to give glory to God. Like, that's the ultimate virtue.
- [27:55]
Marty Solomon
Very good. Westminster Catechism of you, Brent, Which.
- [27:59]
Brent Billings
I mean, I wouldn't say that that's a bad thing.
- [28:02]
Marty Solomon
No, no.
- [28:03]
Brent Billings
But I think it's probably deeper than that.
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Marty Solomon
Yeah. There would be some sense of. I mean, the image of God, that we would reflect God's character. Like, to be human would be to be like. We're called those. Whatever that Hebrew word is. The image, the representation, the shadow, the reflection. Like, part of what it means to be human is to be God's ambassadors. So who God is, not that we will be God, but we ought to shadow, reflect, represent, project that character into the world. Be that presence, that divine presence. To be that would truly be to be human. The irony being we always use the phrase human when we're talking about our flaws and our failures. Like, we're always like, well, I'm just human, and it's always a bad thing. I'm just human means I'm going to fail all the time, rather than I'm just Human should mean. Well, wait, that's the part of me that is Image of Godness.
- [29:03]
Reed Dent
Yes. There's a book coming out about this, right, Marty?
- [29:05]
Marty Solomon
There is. I was just going to say we should probably talk about. Reid and I are working on a book titled the Gospel of Being Human. Just talk more about this.
- [29:14]
Reed Dent
Yeah. So it's gotten me. Some of the stuff we've been writing in there has got me thinking along these lines of how we communicate what it means to be a person. And I. I think if we imagine that the idea is, I think, as you said, reflecting the image or being the image, reflecting something of the character of God. But also as we do, it's the partnership element too. Right. As we do kingdom of God things. And I think what you'll find when we look at the virtues that we're going to go through is that these actually become very actionable. Like it's not just about having a certain. Just a disposition, only like giving off an aura. Virtue is not just about having an aura, but it's about so that we are able to carry out. Because often the partnership that God calls us to can be difficult. Right. It has challenge, it has obstacles. And so virtue will be required in order to carry out the kind of partnership. And so this is. This is what I want to say. This. Here's my short blurb. I think that the virtues that we're going to talk about. This is the color and the contour and the shape of the image of God. This is what the image of God actually looks like in motion, is when we embody and act from these virtues that we're going to talk about. So let's go into what they are, kind of like how we listed devices. So the, the. And we're going to break these into two categories as they traditionally been broken. There's what we call the four cardinal virtues. And those are the things that first show up in Plato and that later get picked up by desert fathers, and then they become a part of the Christian tradition. And they're called cardinal. That word also in. In the Latin, it means like a hinge or a pivot. They're not the only virtues, but what they are exploring is these are the virtues from which other things then hinge or pivot.
- [31:07]
Marty Solomon
Also the idea of like headwaters maybe, correct, It's.
- [31:10]
Reed Dent
It's really similar to that. And so those four cardinal virtues, and these are where we start sounding old school. We're going to find some new language for them. Are prudence, which we'll call wisdom, temperance, which Oh, I don't want to give away our bama isms too soon, but there is a bama ism that everybody loves to say that comes from session one that is basically the essence of temperance. And they didn't know that they were talking about the virtue of temperance, but. Oh, I'm not going to say anything else. I'm going to leave that. And then there is fortitude, which is also. I'm going to use the word courage for that. And courage has been a huge word for our family in the last year, which we'll talk about more later. But courage and then justice and this. I'm actually excited for this one to talk about what our eastern context and the way that we've looked at justice in the Bible and what that maybe a bigger picture of what justice is more than just like punitive justice or. But how that informs what we think the virtue of justice is about. And so we're going to talk about those four. And then there are the three theological virtues which actually are strictly biblical. And that it comes from that famous verse in First Corinthians 13 where Paul has written the poem about love. And then he talks about. These are the three that remain, which is an interesting like. Remain from what? And he talks about faith, hope and love. So these are called the theological virtues. And in a way love actually comes to serve as sort of the pride of the virtues. It is the thing from which all the other things come. Augustine actually he saw the cardinal virtues as just various movements of love. This is what love looks like in action. And Aquinas, he said the cardinal virtues are the form of love. This is what love looks like if you put a body on it. And without love, they're actually not virtuous at all is what he said. Which kind of starts to sound a little bit like, if I don't have love, I'm just a clanging symbol.
- [33:26]
Marty Solomon
I've always been so hard on Augustine and I should probably be like, that was pretty good Augustine. Hey Auggie, that was pretty good. Good work. I like that.
- [33:32]
Reed Dent
You know, I think that's part of the value of looking at other like looking again at. And it's not to. In using any source obviously, no matter if it's Rob Bell or Augustine or whoever, we are not then saying. And of course we agree with everything this person ever said or wrote. However, like if you read some of the Confessions from Augustine, it's like, oh, you did some real earnest self searching that we can benefit from. Yeah, totally. And so yeah, that's What? That's what we're going to try to. To do. And also, like vice, virtue is habitual. It is a thing that grows through practice. So it's not like you just, you know, flip a switch and boom, now you have courage. But it is something that. There's a great book, actually, my favorite book that I've been reading about the vices and virtues is called Glittering Vices by a woman named Rebecca. And I. I don't know how to pronounce the name, so I'm going to butcher it. Conundick. K, O, N, Y, N, D, Y, K. What a name. Wow. Last name. And then DeYoung. And she has this great phrase. She says, they. What?
- [34:45]
Brent Billings
I've just. Why did you even attempt the middle name? Just go first and last.
- [34:49]
Reed Dent
Because it's what's listed on the book.
- [34:51]
Brent Billings
I know.
- [34:51]
Reed Dent
I know it's what's on the book, Brent.
- [34:53]
Brent Billings
You just had an easy out, but good on you for attempting it.
- [34:57]
Reed Dent
Well, my virtue compels me to not take the easy out.
- [35:01]
Marty Solomon
I saw that one coming. I saw that one coming, I gotta say.
- [35:04]
Reed Dent
So she says that vice and virtue, they develop from the outside, in which I think that that plays nicely with a lot of the way that we think about these things, right? Like, action is important. You can't sit around waiting for your heart to just change. But what we do, it kind of reminds me of. I just. I did a sermon about this at CCF right at the end of the school year where it talks about. In Deuteronomy. No, in Exodus, how the people are like, all of these things we will do and we will hear. I think we've talked about this before. And it's like, oh, wait, that's out of order. Because you're supposed to hear or understand first and then do. It's like, no. And so these things develop from the outside in. And virtue, like vice, becomes a sort of default way of being. Doesn't mean you always do things. Right. But it is that tendency from which things spring. And so I think it's worth thinking about in our series. Like, Marty, you've talked about spiritual practices before, spiritual disciplines, the importance of the text and prayer. And I think those are all very important. And also, it might be instructive to think about what are some practices for developing, growing any of these virtuous things in us, like how do I grow courage or how do I grow justice, or how do I grow any of these things? And so we'll be talking about that as well as the series goes On.
- [36:22]
Marty Solomon
Well, and the relationship between that and what you were just saying about. We will do and hear and like, part of the way Christians have discussed, even through the classical period spiritual practice is you're giving yourself to. You're giving yourself to these spaces because you do believe that is how you foster. That is how you grow virtue, virtuous, prudence. Think about those old words. You had prudence and temperance and fortitude. How do I do this? By coming back to the same space every single day and giving myself and that. That develops those virtues in part. In part, not the only source, but partially how early Christians talked about that. So that's.
- [37:02]
Reed Dent
Yeah.
- [37:02]
Marty Solomon
So then we do. And that's why we hear and heed and understand.
- [37:05]
Reed Dent
Yeah.
- [37:06]
Marty Solomon
Because we give ourselves to it first and then it forms in us.
- [37:08]
Brent Billings
I like that.
- [37:09]
Reed Dent
Yeah. I mean, for me, even in thinking in the last, you know, month or so that I've been, like, reading and preparing notes for this series, even just having the language, and I face whatever the particular difficult situation is, and I think it's really helpful to say, okay, so what would courage ask me to do here? Or what would prudence say to do here? And it's like, I don't really know if I feel like that, but I'm gonna try it because that's what I think it would ask of me. Right. And it's like putting the one foot in front of the other. And so, yeah, just virtues as a framework again, if it's the shape and the color, the contour of the image of God, this is not simply just about doing the right thing in a vacuum, but about who we are becoming as the people of God. And sometimes that can be a difficult question to answer. Right. It's like, well, should it look like this or should it look like this? And I think the tradition of these virtues and vices helps us, maybe with some confidence, say, okay, I'm going to go this direction. I'm going to do it like this, because that's what it, you know, that that's what it would look like. So here's what we're going to do. This is the last part. We're going to wrap up with what we're going to do and why we're, you know, just me kind of summarizing the reasons why I wanted to do this series. So we're going to do Vices, and then we're going to do Virtues weekly. So there's going to be 14 episodes. We're going to do a sketch of each of these and look at, you know, the obvious and also less obvious dimensions and depths to how it is that lust or envy or wrath kind of any of these things, how they work within us. We're also going to have a discussion about just cultural, you know, whether that's our church culture or the broader culture in which we live. But what are the responses to, like, how do they think about or object to or embrace any of these vices or virtues? We're also going to look at how it relates to the text and then we'll talk about why it matters and really what helps. What helps with building or escaping from any of these particular vices or virtues. And I want to do this because the first thing is I think our heaven obsessed centric theology has kind of made us thin and pale as people, because how does it often go? It's like, well, here's the message. Believe this so that you can go to heaven. And then what? Like, you just sit around for 60 years waiting until you die so that you can go to heaven? Like, what is there in the meantime? And if faith is actually about who we're becoming, I think it's worth doing because this growth is a lifetime pursuit. And I think that we have suffered some collateral damage or lost a passion for talk about these kinds of deeply true things. Because our thinking about, you know, God and Bible has mostly been like, just get saved and go to heaven. That's what matters. And then the rest is sort of optional, I guess.
- [40:12]
Marty Solomon
It's all extra credit. It's all extra credit.
- [40:14]
Reed Dent
So it's extra credit. But. But the truth is that, like, these things and our attention to them or not actually have effects out in the world. I think it's also worth doing because empire has its own virtues.
- [40:27]
Marty Solomon
Ooh, Ooh.
- [40:28]
Reed Dent
So I was reading this was.
- [40:30]
Marty Solomon
Hold on. That, that one hit. Golly. Okay. Empire has its own virtues. Okay.
- [40:36]
Brent Billings
A bama baseball bat to the face right there.
- [40:38]
Marty Solomon
Okay, got it. Okay.
- [40:40]
Reed Dent
Empire has its own virtues, which I would. I think that maybe some attention in any of us and any of our listeners might reveal, like, oh, actually, I kind of let this culture or this, this empire virtue dictate my steps more than, like, the theological one.
- [40:59]
Brent Billings
This is what I was afraid of.
- [41:00]
Marty Solomon
Reid.
- [41:02]
Reed Dent
So Rebecca DeYoung in her book that I am recommending, again, glittering vices. David Hume was a philosopher in the 1700s, and he listed a list of virtues and he was an empiricist, which is a big word for. It's like after the Enlightenment and science comes in and everything is about what you can prove and test, you know, over and verify and that kind of thing. It's like this scientism. I love science. Scientism. Not so good. Hume, he said, here's your virtues, discretion, caution, enterprise, industry, assiduity, which. Hold on, I had to look that word up. Do you guys know what that word means?
- [41:47]
Marty Solomon
No.
- [41:48]
Reed Dent
It just means like paying really close attention to what you are doing and then frugality. And I think this is where it starts to hit a little closer home to me with our, you know, consumer driven culture. Frugality is a virtue. Economy is a good virtue. Good sense is a virtue. He's also got prudence on there. And then she also quotes Henry Ford, who, you know, we, we know who Henry Ford is. And he said, she's quoting this in Work is our sanity, our self respect, our salvation. And through work, and work alone, may health, wealth and happiness be inevitably secured. How does that strike you?
- [42:32]
Brent Billings
A great quote for a boss trying to get a bunch of workers to do something.
- [42:36]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, yeah. And very, very imperial. What strikes me the most is just looking at Hume's list.
- [42:42]
Reed Dent
Yeah.
- [42:42]
Marty Solomon
Like if I were to compare that to Christian tradition and our list we were talking about above, which list do I actually find more practically attractive? Which one do I as a leader or a discipler actually quote from or draw from more? And that does make me slightly uncomfortable.
- [43:00]
Reed Dent
I mean, it's like, who are the really interesting people in the room that people want to talk to? It's like, oh, who's enterprising and industrious? Who is good at making things and making money and climbing the ladder? That's, that's what being enterprising and industrious and economic is all about. What would it look like if in a given situation I can listen to either the so called virtue of enterprise or I can look at the virtue of justice or courage? You know what, what would that. And how do those lead me down different paths? And does one actually end up being about the kingdom of God and the kind of upside down things that God wants to be about, or is one just another? It's empire, it's Pharaoh, it's all of that all over again.
- [43:43]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, that's good. Okay, you've, you've further solid need for me to pay attention during this series. Good work.
- [43:48]
Reed Dent
Okay, good. I'm glad that I could do that. Also. I want to do this because the more things change, the more they stay the same. That is to say, like some of these words, fortitude, prudence, these are outdated words, but I think what we will see is they speak to something that actually is universally true. And yet what I like about these virtues is that they always have to be discerned for our own times.
- [44:10]
Marty Solomon
Yeah.
- [44:10]
Reed Dent
And it's not a prescribed set of, like, behavior. You must do this and this and this. But it is rather these kind of virtues, these principles, these guidelines by which we then measure and say, okay, we got to figure this out now in community, what we're going to do about this or that, or as a family, or even just me as an individual. And so here are the things that are going to guide us and recognizing that, like, if our nature is not just complex but powerful, like, we have an immense capacity for, like, creating in the world and also destroying in the world. We have an immense capacity for either lifting up, you know, those who are down or just treading right over them. Then if I am able to, like, name those, you know, like you said, it's that. It's that whisper. It's that inclination in me. And that's the thing that's, like, nudging and makes you want to react in this way or that way. If I can name it and I can understand it, then I can start to gain some control over it. And I use that word cautiously because there is also something to be said about, like, it's. It's not like, by God's grace. Right. Is. Is the. And by the Spirit. Like, we live and move and have our being, and we work through these things, but we're not just going to sit around and pray. God, give me courage without having to then work that out in the way that we are living.
- [45:36]
Marty Solomon
Yeah.
- [45:36]
Reed Dent
So I actually want to bring in a little bit of text here if that is. If that is kosher with you guys. Let's do Second Peter. So, Brent, can you start reading? And I'm going to stop you when I want to stop you. This is Second Peter one, starting in verse three.
- [45:52]
Brent Billings
His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these, he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
- [46:11]
Reed Dent
Okay, stop there so you can read this first part. And you could take a very passive sort of approach to this. Right?
- [46:20]
Marty Solomon
Yeah.
- [46:20]
Reed Dent
God has given us everything we need. And through that and his promises, that's all we got to do. Right. And now we have, like, overcome. And that's. That's all we need. Right. So go on to the next verse, Brent.
- [46:30]
Brent Billings
For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness.
- [46:34]
Reed Dent
Okay, stop there. That word. Make every effort for this reason, because God has given us what we need for a godly life. Because we have knowledge. It's not just about knowledge and promise, but because of that, make every effort to add to your faith goodness. And that word there, I think, is not our best translation in the niv because that word is the Greek word that we talked about before, arete, excellence, which. It has the connotation of virtue.
- [47:01]
Marty Solomon
Yeah.
- [47:02]
Reed Dent
So it's not just talking about goodness in, like, a generic sense, but I think actually add to your faith excellence. Yeah, Some translation even render it virtue. Right. So add to it virtue or goodness. And you can keep going there, Brent.
- [47:17]
Brent Billings
And to arete, knowledge. And to knowledge, self control. And to self control. Perseverance. And to perseverance. Godliness. And to godliness. Mutual affection. And to mutual affection. Love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
- [47:49]
Reed Dent
So that's the end of the passage. But notice there that if you possess these things and if you add to your faith, virtue, or excellence toward what God has designed you to be, then that keeps you from being ineffective and unproductive. Which is what I was trying to say before. Like, these things are actually about us being on mission, partnering with God in the world. Not just sitting around having knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, but actually being effective and productive for the things that he is going to be about. So it's. It's not just, let's sit around and remember that we've been cleansed from our past sins and wait until we go sit on a cloud in heaven, but add to our faith these things so that we can become the kind of people God wants us to be doing the kind of things God wants us to do in the world.
- [48:38]
Marty Solomon
It's a good word. That's a good verse. Look at that.
- [48:41]
Brent Billings
Well, yeah, and maybe we'll talk about this later when we get to the theological virtues episodes. But I'm just struck by the difference between Peter's approach to this and Paul's approach. Because Paul's like, there's not a whole lot left, and the greatest is love. And then Peter's like, okay, love. We're going to get to love. But you've Got all these things that you need to build on top of to get there.
- [49:04]
Reed Dent
Well, let's. Let's pull out some Paul right now and let's do Philippians 4, starting in 6. This is a passage that everybody knows.
- [49:13]
Brent Billings
Well, why am I reading it then? Read.
- [49:16]
Reed Dent
Because we're going to say that there's more to it than people realize or that we forget the next part of it like we always do.
- [49:24]
Brent Billings
Do not be anxious about anything. But in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
- [49:38]
Reed Dent
So again, there is a way of reading this that's like, it doesn't really put a demand on me to develop virtue. It's just, don't be anxious, but instead pray. And if you pray, you'll have peace about everything, right? And that's really all you got to do. But let's move on to the next verse there, Brent.
- [50:00]
Brent Billings
Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things.
- [50:14]
Reed Dent
If anything is what?
- [50:15]
Brent Billings
Excellent, Virtuous. Arete.
- [50:17]
Reed Dent
If anything is virtuous. Arete. Yep. If anything is arete or praiseworthy, think about such things. And not just that. Go ahead and give us the last verse.
- [50:25]
Brent Billings
Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me or seen in me, put it into practice, and the God of peace will be with you.
- [50:33]
Reed Dent
Put it into practice. So it's about knowing what that is like, what is the kind of person. And we can see it. I mean, Paul is saying, you've seen it in me, you've heard it from me, you've received it from me. But don't just sit around thinking about it. Put it into practice, and the God of peace will be with you. And we always want to say that first part that's like, don't be anxious. Just pray, and the peace of God will guard your hearts. But then he says it again, the peace of God will be with you. When what? When we take these virtuous things and we begin to put them into practice. And of course, always by the grace and the spirit of God. But it's a both andness. It's not an either orness to, like, what is the part that God does to work in me, and what is the part that I do to work it out in myself? And I think part of the impetus for me is that, like, I guess it's Worth the effort, it's worth the care in this series to actually think and try to become people who are like this. Because, again, it is, I think, through people like that. And the virtues assist us as we are trying to be about building the kingdom of God in the world.
- [51:36]
Brent Billings
I like that little add on there. Like, whatever you've learned or received or heard from me or seen in me, like, there may be stuff, like, I've been doing this stuff for a while. I've been in relationship with God for a while. There may be things about me that are in this vein that I don't even realize I'm doing. If you see something good in me that I'm not even teaching you, like, put that into practice, too. Like, take all of these good things, put them into practice.
- [52:01]
Reed Dent
It's contagious, right? Like, there is something about both vice and virtue that is contagious. And so when we pay attention to, as Paul's saying, look at me, look what I'm doing. And I think for each of us, we could probably name to ourselves, maybe they're more rare, but there are those people who come into and go out of our lives who, it's like, there's something about that and it, it kind of jumps from them to us. And it's like they're, you know, their courage empowers or emboldens, like, courage in me, and I'm then going to follow like that. And so then if we also put these things into practice, it might also then become contagious for others because they can see it in motion. And I think when we see virtue in action, it is beautiful and it is, you know, it is powerful. It is what drew my boys to the edge of their seat as they're watching Aragorn. I mean, he's, he's fiction, but there's still something about it that's like, I want to be a part of something like that for the Kingdom of God.
- [53:02]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. I have fallen silent because what's a good word we often will give. Reid, I see you have a list of resources. At the beginning of a series, our first episode, we'll often give a list of resources. You want to go through this list of stuff that if people want to dive deeper.
- [53:18]
Reed Dent
Sure. So my, my biggest, the one that I'm enjoying the most is Glittering Vices, which I've referenced a couple of times by Rebecca DeYoung. Didn't say the middle name that time. And then there's a number of other ones. And again, these are going to be like, I like Rebecca DeYoung's book, because it's is not just like, philosophical. I mean, a lot of these readings are very philosophical, but I think hers does a good job of putting skin on it. There's another book called the Cardinal and the Deadly by Carl Clifton Soderstrom, who teaches philosophy at North Park University in Chicago, or at least he did when the book was published. There's another one that. It's called the Seven Deadly Sins by a guy named Kevin Yost, and it's a Thomistic guide to the vices. Basically, what he's doing is he's taking, you know, Aquinas's work, which, as I said, is very dense and intimidating, and he's kind of just synthesizing that. Yeah, it's. If you're interested in kind of the nuts and bolts, or even just in the survey of how things developed, you know, from earlier desert fathers into later tradition, then that one, it just gives some information. There's another interesting one I've been reading that's called the Seven Deadly Sins by a guy named Solomon Schimmel. And he is a psychologist. And so he's coming at this from the angle of modern psychology, maybe doesn't do the best job of addressing the vices in us. And so let's think about what the ancient traditions have to teach us about these things. I would say this is interesting. I was reading it, some of it to my wife, who is about to finish her PhD in counseling studies, and she works in mental health full time, and she's like, ah, it seems like he's maybe generalizing a little bit, but there is some helpful stuff in there. And then, of course, there's like some of the, like, you know, the Inferno by Dante, actually his ordering of the rings going into hell is based on the different vices. And he is very much like saying these ones are worse and more dangerous, and these ones lead into those ones. But I mean, if you've. If you're into art and understanding kind of original sources for where a lot of our thinking kind of comes from, then read the Inferno. I read it a few years ago, and it's pretty interesting, and I think then I'll just kind of stop there. There are some more sources, but those are ones that I have not yet dived all the way into.
- [55:48]
Marty Solomon
You did already talk about Confessions by Augusta, and you talked about Summa Theologica by Aquinas.
- [55:54]
Reed Dent
Yeah. And that is really for the bold and the brave. That is some intense stuff, and I'm thankful that he did that. Work. And I'm thankful that people have done the work to sort of synthesize and translate it. But it is. It's not like just the most engrossing. Like, sit down with a cup of cocoa and read through the Summa Theologica. Like, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, there's, there's, there's a lot out there. You can find a lot on the vices and the virtues.
- [56:19]
Brent Billings
What's that last one read? Do you mean. You mean to tell me you haven't dove into that one?
- [56:23]
Reed Dent
Oh, I listed the film Seven by David Fincher.
- [56:26]
Brent Billings
You've seen it?
- [56:27]
Reed Dent
I definitely have seen it. I love David Fincher. It is about the seven vices, and it is not for the faint of heart. I will say that. So I would not just blanket recommend it to our listeners, but David Fincher is awesome. And if you have the stomach for violence.
- [56:47]
Marty Solomon
Earlier, I was going to say if they didn't want to read the book, they could just go play the PS3 version of Dante's Inferno. And then I realized I probably can't say that on the episode, but there we are. We've gone there. You can't recommend it.
- [56:58]
Reed Dent
Is this the first time that a video game has been listed as a source in our podcast?
- [57:03]
Brent Billings
I kind of feel like World of Warcraft has been an unofficial source in some way.
- [57:08]
Marty Solomon
Absolutely.
- [57:09]
Brent Billings
In a Sabbath practice context.
- [57:12]
Marty Solomon
Amen and Amen. Talk about vices and virtues.
- [57:16]
Reed Dent
Virtue, the video game also known as World of Warcraft.
- [57:20]
Brent Billings
I don't know, Reed. We'll see.
- [57:21]
Marty Solomon
Maybe.
- [57:22]
Brent Billings
I'll have to check with the executive producer, but maybe we can do a bonus episode on. On the film.
- [57:26]
Reed Dent
Sweet.
- [57:27]
Brent Billings
Oh, man. Okay. Well, that's a pretty good list, though. Even if you're, you know, if you got some resources that you haven't finished diving into, maybe you'll end up recommending them later, but that's a pretty good start. So I think we have a solid list for people to work through.
- [57:41]
Marty Solomon
Sounds good.
- [57:42]
Reed Dent
Let's do it. We'll get on it.
- [57:43]
Brent Billings
All right. You can find more details about our show@baymoddiscipleship.com you can find all of the show notes, all the links on the episode page, which is, if you want a shortcut, you just do bamonsafesop.com I think this is going to be 467. We'll see where it actually lands. You can also check your podcast app. The show notes will be there. If you want to get in touch with us, you can use the website, the contact page. Will always give you the most up to date way to do that. You can check out the news on what we're doing and where we're going to be in the coming months. That is all available on the website. And so thank you for joining us on the Bear, my podcast this week. We'll talk to you again soon.