The BEMA Podcast
Episode 469: Vice & Virtue — Lust
Date: September 18, 2025
Hosts: Marty Solomon (A), Brent Billings (B), Reed Dent (C)
Overview
In this episode, the BEMA team launches their new “Vice & Virtue” series by diving headfirst into the topic of lust. The hosts aim to deconstruct the typical, often shame-laden perspectives about lust—both secular and religious—and reconstruct an understanding built on biblical and historical foundations. The conversation weaves together reflections from the Church Fathers, scriptural analysis, personal anecdotes, and cultural critique, all while exploring: What is lust? Why does it matter? And how can followers of Jesus navigate this powerful, often-misunderstood human desire with wisdom, honesty, and hope?
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Opening Reflections: Historical Voices on Lust
[00:47 – 03:22]
- Augustine’s Honesty: Reed opens with readings from Augustine’s Confessions—including the poignant line:
“Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet, for I was afraid you would hear my prayer too soon… I wanted it satisfied with rather than extinguished.”
– Reed, quoting Augustine (02:10) - Lust as “Craving for Salt”: Beechner is quoted describing lust:
“Lust is the craving for salt of a man dying of thirst.”
– Reed, quoting Frederick Buechner (03:12)
2. Defining Lust: A Disordered Good
[03:22 – 07:53]
- Desire, Out of Order: Lust, like greed and gluttony, arises when a natural, good desire becomes “disordered”—taking up too much space in the soul and crowding out other priorities.
- Lust as “Entry-Level” Vice: Drawing on classical sources, Reed notes that traditionally, lust is seen as one of the least severe vices—“a vice of weakness rather than of malice,” echoing Dante’s Inferno.
- Rebecca DeYoung’s Definition:
“Lust is the habit of trying to engineer my own happiness for myself on my own terms. My own pleasure is the goal, and I decide where to get it and when and with whom…”
— Reed, quoting Rebecca DeYoung from Glittering Vices (06:38)
3. Pleasure’s Paradox: Game Genie & the Unsatisfying Shortcut
[07:53 – 11:06]
- Cheat Codes Analogy: Reed uses nostalgic video game anecdotes (“Game Genie” and “God mode”) as a metaphor: getting what you want without effort quickly becomes empty and unsatisfying—just as chasing pure pleasure ultimately leads to dissatisfaction.
“It seems super promising up front. And then you get into it… devoid of the actual attachment to work, to responsibility… it is really empty, really quickly.”
— Reed (10:10) - Habitual Chasing: The pursuit becomes addictive: “You keep seeking pleasure for the sake of pleasure… a horrible, dark irony that the more you try to chase it, the more you become unable of actually being satisfied.”
4. Aquinas’s “Daughters of Lust” & Effects
[11:06 – 18:19]
- The Outworkings of Lust: Drawing from Aquinas, lust’s consequences include:
- Blindness of the Mind: Losing appreciation for anything beyond the flesh ([12:18])
- Thoughtlessness/Rashness: Acting impulsively, driven by appetite
- Inconstancy: The gradual erosion of willpower
- Self-Love: Others become objects, not people
- Hatred of God: Resentment for restraint; seeing God as a “buzzkill” ([17:10])
- Desire for Control: The more one indulges, the harder it is to make good choices; vice grows incrementally.
- Lust as Most Directly Using People: Unlike gluttony or greed, lust’s “perniciousness” is its use of another’s body as an object for gratification.
5. The Good Desire at the Root of Lust
[20:28 – 23:33]
- Desire and Intimacy: At its root, lust twists the healthy human desires for intimacy, relationship, and connection.
- Desire Is Not Evil:
“Desire is good, man. …In hitting on the intimacy… what we probably want deep down is not just sexual intimacy. …What we want is a deep and abiding connection with somebody…”
— Reed (20:57)
6. Culture & the Church: Shame, Obsession, and Overcorrection
[23:33 – 33:53]
- Church Culture Critique: Marty shares frustration at “the war” between developing bodies, cultural norms, and the church’s hesitance to honestly address the gap—resulting in “psychic turmoil.”
“When something is both intensely desirable and culturally identified as intensely shameful, we can expect psychic turmoil.”
— Reed, quoting Simon Black (28:08) - Lust as Taboo, Yet Idolatrously Elevated:
“You screw up on gluttony—no big deal. Lust…whoa. …Sex is talked about as the zenith of human relationship…the pinnacle…and yet this deep source of shame in church culture.”
— Reed (26:43) - Over-Indexing and Unhealthy Focus:
“There’s this over-indexing on… this is the one thing you do not do…this obsession…actually makes it worse, at least for me.”
— Brent (31:14)
7. Re-framing Ethics: Is “No Harm” Enough?
[34:51 – 35:40]
- Beyond “Not Hurting”:
“As long as no one gets hurt is like…the opposite energy [of ethics]. …It’s like, ‘Is it bad enough?’ rather than ‘Is it good enough?’”
— Marty (35:10) - Calling out the weakness of cultural logic that settles for bare minimums rather than seeking human flourishing.
8. Biblical Reflections: Love in the Song of Songs
[39:22 – 47:09]
- Three Hebrew Loves (Rob Bell’s “Flame”):
- Raya – Friendship, the “electric poetry” of infatuation
- Ahava – Commitment, abiding companionship
- Dode – Sexual love, passionate, “to boil”
- Healthy Sexuality = All Three Loves Together:
“When they are all present in the same relationship…it’s this massive [bon]fire…that contributes to flourishing.”
— Reed (46:06) - Sex is not the pinnacle; deep relationships involve multiple kinds of connection.
9. Nakedness and Integration in Genesis
[47:22 – 48:47]
- Wholeness: Genesis affirms physical creation and sexuality as “good”—but always as part of holistic relationship, not isolated acts. The move to hide nakedness after the Fall signals the breakdown of this integration.
10. Jesus & Lust (Sermon on the Mount)
[49:10 – 51:52]
- Heart, Not Just Rules: Jesus isn’t “raising the bar” as much as revealing the depth—lust in the heart breaks relationship, not just the act itself.
“You can have all the rules straight… and still miss the greater point. …Jesus is calling us to see people as people, to see their humanity.”
— Marty (51:06)
11. Practical Steps & Hope for Overcoming Lust
[53:17 – 60:10]
- Don’t Rely on Willpower Alone:
“…Simply logic and willpower aren’t going to help us a lot.”
— Reed (53:20) - Take Access Seriously: Like other addictions, be honest about when/where/why temptation arises.
- “Don’t go anywhere near her house” (Proverbs advice)—create boundaries and avoid easy triggers.
- Media & Substitutes: Modern media (from unboxing videos to Food Network) can stoke unhealthy desires by allowing us to “indulge a desire without risking reality.”
- Confession: Community and honest confession are essential—you need people who know and love you.
- Friendship: Practice deep, platonic friendships. Sex is not the only or highest form of relationship.
“Relationships not plagued by lust… can be these unalloyed human relationships where we’re not mixing intentions and motives, but we can be truly good to one another.”
— Reed (59:13)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- Augustine’s Prayer:
“Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet…” (02:10, Reed quoting Augustine)
- Beechner on Lust:
“Lust is the craving for salt of a man dying of thirst.” (03:12)
- Rebecca DeYoung’s Definition:
“Lust is the habit of trying to engineer my own happiness for myself on my own terms…” (06:38)
- Quote on Cultural Shame:
“When something is both intensely desirable and culturally identified as intensely shameful, we can expect psychic turmoil.” (28:08)
- Nitroglycerin Analogy:
“Sex is not sin… it's not salvation either. Like nitroglycerin, it can be used either to blow up bridges or heal hearts.” (33:53)
- Beyond “No Harm”:
“It’s like, ‘Is it bad enough?’ rather than ‘Is it good enough?’” (35:10)
- On Friendship vs. Romance:
“Recover other kinds of relationship… sex with another person is not the pinnacle of human relationships.” (58:50)
- Jesus’ Deeper Call:
“Jesus is calling us to…see the people as people… see her humanity.” (51:06)
Timestamps of Major Segments
- [00:47] – Series intro to vices; cold opens with Augustine and Beechner
- [03:22] – Defining lust as a disordered desire
- [07:53] – Pleasure’s paradox: Game Genie analogy
- [11:06] – Aquinas’s daughters of lust and effects on relationships
- [20:28] – Discussion: what is the good desire at the heart of lust?
- [23:33] – The Church, culture, shame, and the “obsession” with lust
- [34:51] – Evaluating “as long as no one gets hurt” logic; flourishing not minimalism
- [39:22] – Love and sexuality in Song of Songs: raya, ahava, dode
- [47:22] – Nakedness, shame, and holistic relationships in Genesis
- [49:10] – Matthew 5 and Jesus’s wisdom about lust in the heart
- [53:17] – Hope and practical pathways: boundaries, confession, and friendship
- [60:29] – Reflective questions for self-examination and application
Reflective Questions (For Listeners)
[60:59]
- How do my non-pornographic media consumption habits fuel an inclination to lust?
- Are there non-sexual ways in which I objectify others?
- How can I engage in deeper levels of friendship with the people in my life, including my own spouse?
- How can I use my energy as an opportunity to serve others in love?
The episode closes with encouragement to seek out community and conversation partners, and emphasizes that no one journeys through vices—or virtues—alone.
[61:23] Reed:
“Thanks for joining guys… Just a nice, easy, light entry into the vices.”
Episode Tone
Honest, self-deprecating, compassionate, and practical. The hosts create space for vulnerability while challenging listeners to examine their hearts and habits through both communal and personal lenses.
If you’re looking to better understand the roots, risks, and redeeming possibilities embedded in our experience of lust, this episode provides a thoughtful, gracious, and textually grounded guide.