472: The Chosen S5E3 — “Woes” (Bonus Episode)

Summary

The BEMA Podcast

Episode 472: The Chosen S5E3 — “Woes” (Bonus Episode)

Date: September 29, 2025
Hosts: Marty Solomon (A), Brent Billings (B)

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Episode Overview

In this bonus episode, hosts Marty Solomon and Brent Billings analyze Season 5, Episode 3 ("Woes") of The Chosen. They break down how the episode intertwines Gospel accounts of Jesus’ final week, discuss the series' interpretive choices, and reflect on the historical, theological, and literary implications. The hosts critically engage with the show’s scriptural adaptation, noting its creative liberties, and repeatedly reference their own journey with both the text and The Chosen’s portrayal.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Placement and Portrayal of “Jesus Weeping over Jerusalem”

00:16 – 03:13

• Textual Fidelity vs. Artistic License:
  • Marty challenges the placement of Jesus weeping over Jerusalem in the show, admitting his preference for associating it with the triumphal entry (Luke 19).
  • Brent points out gospel variations; the harmonization problem is complex, and The Chosen’s approach isn't unwarranted.
• Quote:

  “If Jesus is weeping, it tells us the people didn’t understand... and this triumphal entry is not what Jesus—he was trying to communicate something and everybody was missing it so much, so he breaks down and weeps over it.” — Marty [01:54]

• They both agree: while not their preference, there’s “room” for the show's choices.

2. Adapting and Sequencing Multiple Gospel Accounts

03:13 – 05:14

• The hosts appreciate The Chosen’s willingness to blend Gospel stories, despite the messiness this creates.
• Marty appreciates the non-harmonizing approach, finding value in the show’s narrative freedom.

3. Scene Breakdown: Passover Table, John 14

05:29 – 07:59

• Jesus discusses his imminent departure and the promise of the Holy Spirit.
• The hosts reflect on the disciples’ confusion, emphasizing the show’s strong portrayal of “disorientation.”
• Notably, the character development of Philip stands out, as does Jesus’ offering of peace amid turmoil.
• Memorable Moment:

  “I love the spot where Jesus is sensing, like he senses all the angst, all their struggle, and he says, ‘I’m giving you peace. Peace I give you.’ Which doesn’t necessarily land for the disciples...” — Marty [07:32]

4. The Cleansing of the Temple: Textual Source Comparisons

07:59 – 12:05

• Discussion of the blending of John 2, Matthew 21, Mark 11, and Luke 19.
• Brent notes the show shifts Jesus’ “den of robbers” rebuke from merchants (as in Matthew) to religious leaders. Marty thinks this is an effective theatrical touch, even if historically debatable.
• They analyze specific lines and their gospel origins, commenting on the creative construction of scenes.

5. Depicting Jewish Crowds and Anti-Semitism Concerns

12:05 – 14:09

• Marty voices his ongoing concern about the portrayal of “the crowd” shouting crucify, emphasizing it wasn’t the same Jewish crowd that shouted hosanna—warning against anti-Jewish misreadings.
• Quote:

  “The crowd that’s shouting crucify is a crowd worked up on behalf of the chief priests and this corrupt mob. It is not the Jewish voice. It is a corrupt voice.” — Marty [13:07]

• Brent observes the show’s nuance in displaying both opposition and support among the people.

6. Disciples Reacting After the Temple Incident

14:09 – 17:14

• The disciples process Jesus’ actions. Judas questions the temple sacrifices, Matthew clarifies Jesus didn’t physically harm anyone, and Philip argues Jesus targets corruption rather than worship itself.
• Marty highlights the deepening depiction of Judas, noting his “unity” rhetoric that’s not true unity.
• Quote:

  “He wants Jesus to be super clear about stuff in a way that draws all Jews together... he’ll frame the argument as unity, but it’s not true unity.” — Marty [15:43]

7. Religious Leaders and Roman Characters: Schemes & Historical Nuance

17:14 – 22:48

• Shmuel and other leaders converge, debating how to handle Jesus; Yanni wants to trap him, not misrepresent him.
• Scenes with Pilate, Atticus, and Caiaphas show layers of Roman governance and religious intrigue.
• Marty, referencing N.T. Wright, appreciates the historically-informed picture of Pilate as “an incompetent bully” and Atticus as Caesar’s agent.
• Quote:

  “Their depiction of Pilate is spot on how N.T. Wright says: Rome put Pilate there to be provocative and bully people. He’s a provocative bully, but he was incompetent.” — Marty [19:45]

8. Preparation for Jesus' Parables and Final Teachings

22:48 – 24:43

• Jesus discusses preaching plans with Matthew, referencing the Sermon on the Mount, and the vineyard parable.
• The intimate mentor-disciple moments are a highlight for Marty.
• Quote:

  “Every time they do a scene of personal, the one-on-one character development, the intimacy between Jesus and his disciples... I just really enjoy those scenes a lot.” — Marty [24:43]

9. Jesus’ Public Teachings: Parables, Taxes, Woes

25:07 – 29:55

• The show blends elements from various Gospels as Jesus gives the Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25), Parable of the Tenants (Matthew 21), and discusses paying taxes to Caesar (Matthew 22).
• Notable: Judas is disconnected during the parable enactment.
• The dialogue about Roman taxes draws mixed reactions, especially from Matthew (the former tax collector).
• Coffney stirs anti-Jesus sentiment in a small sub-crowd, while Hosanna shouts prevail.
• The “Woes” (Matthew 23) follow a religious leader’s challenge on the greatest commandment, with Nathaniel recognizing Jesus is sealing his fate.
• Quote:

  “He’s inviting them to kill him.” — Nathaniel [28:00]

10. Intimacy, Lament, and the Approach of the End

29:55 – 34:38

• Jesus, sensing the end, tells his disciples he’s done speaking to crowds (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21).
• The disciples debate what this means; Big James and John realize and verbalize the finality.
• On the Mount of Olives, the show weaves together Gospel threads describing Jesus’ apocalyptic discourse.
• The segment ends with John’s emotional connection to Jesus, illustrating his deep (if still unclear) understanding.

11. Creative Vision: Jesus’ Vision of David

34:38 – 36:37

• After lamenting over Jerusalem (Luke 19), Jesus sees David singing Psalm 5—a poignant, almost transfiguration-like moment of divine consolation.
• Both hosts speculate it’s a kind of spiritual encouragement, akin to the angelic ministry after the temptation in the wilderness.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Gospel Harmonization:

  “Of all the things it’s supposed to make sense of, the historical harmony is not what it’s trying to make sense of in our Gospel.” — Marty [05:14]

• On depiction of Jewish crowds:

  “It didn’t all fit one or the other, so well said.” — Marty [14:04]

• On Judas’ changing character:

  “He wants Jesus to be super clear about stuff... but it’s not true unity.” — Marty [15:43]

• On The Chosen’s historical scholarship:

  “Their depiction of Pilate is spot on how N.T. Wright... Rome put Pilate there to be provocative and bully people. He’s a provocative bully, but he was incompetent.” — Marty [19:45]

• On intimate character portrayals:

  “I really like every time they do a scene of personal, the one on one character development... I just really enjoy those scenes a lot.” — Marty [24:43]

• On narrative complexity:

  “With every successive episode, I seem to be digging more and more into the text, so mission accomplished as far as that goes.” — Brent [37:18]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:16–03:13: Debating the placement of “Jesus Weeping over Jerusalem”
• 05:29–07:59: Passover table scene (John 14), the disciples’ confusion and angst
• 07:59–12:05: Temple cleansing sequence, “den of robbers” discussion
• 14:09–17:14: Disciples process temple incident and their reactions
• 17:14–22:48: Political/religious leadership schemes, pilot character analysis, N.T. Wright reference
• 22:48–24:43: Jesus’ rehearsal with Matthew, preaching plans, vineyard parable
• 25:07–29:55: Public teachings: parables, taxes, woes, Judas’ growing distance
• 29:55–34:38: Aftermath, Mount of Olives discourse, growing awareness of the end
• 34:38–36:37: Lament over Jerusalem, vision of David, Jesus’ exhaustion and divine support

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Overall Tone and Takeaways

• The episode is filled with honest, critical analysis—balancing appreciation for The Chosen’s narrative craft with textual critique.
• Both hosts lean into historical and literary context, inviting listeners to “dig into the text” rather than just consume biblical media passively.
• The episode closes on a reflective, open note as Marty continues to cautiously engage with the series, while Brent finds joy in deeper textual study provoked by the show.

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For Further Study

• N.T. Wright — Jesus and the Victory of God (key reference for analysis of Pilate)
• Gospel texts: Matthew 21–25, Mark 11–13, Luke 19–21, John 2 & 13–14

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Contact & Extras

Listeners are encouraged to send in thoughts, feedback, and questions via BEMA Discipleship’s contact page. Supporting resources and mentioned books are found in the episode notes/webpage.

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(Advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content segments were omitted from this summary.)

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

This is the Bainwell Podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we continue our analysis of season five of the Chosen with a discussion of the third episode woes.

[A]

Yeah, you know, we were chatting before we hit record here, Brent, about. I've now spent two episodes throwing shade at how they've used the Jesus weeping over Jerusalem. And you went and just noticed how in the Gospels, that phrase is not only slightly different in different instances, it shows up in kind of different places. And so I think there would be room for a rebuttal of like, well, we're lacking some level of clarity. We have the ability to put it here as they've put it. I have always associated this concept of Jesus weeping over Jerusalem with the triumphal entry, because it's such a. I think you said it was Matthew that does that almost while he's writing in.

[B]

It's Luke. Luke 19.

[A]

Luke 19 is where he's riding into the temple and weeps over Jerusalem.

[B]

Yeah. Now they portrayed this. He gets on the donkey. Yeah, it's. It's even mixed up the way they're portraying it. So they bring it to Jesus. They put their cloaks on the donkey. Jesus sits on it, starts riding. Then people are spreading their cloaks on the road. As he's drawing near, the disciples begin to rejoice. We see all that. People are shouting. Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to him, teacher, rebuke your disciples. So, like, that's. They had those guys come out before he gets to the crowd. So we're already mixing things around there. And then Luke goes on to say, and when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, saying, blah, blah, blah. Like he's going to actually say that in this episode. They don't have that in the other gospels in the entry.

[A]

So, yeah, I have always associated that with the triumphal entry because of the impact it has on the triumphal entry. If you don't associate Jesus's weeping as a reaction to the triumphal entry, then what you get is rock and roll music. Jesus smiling. Look at the triumph. If Jesus is weeping, it tells us the people didn't understand. And this triumphantry is not what Jesus. Like, he was trying to communicate something and everybody was missing it so much, so he breaks down and weeps over it. So I think they would look at the record and say there's plenty of room to do what they've done in portraying it the way they have. For me, that's always been important of keeping those Two things together. So I wanted to be more fair about the shade that I had thrown. Now two episodes in a row, and it's not going to get any better. I think they have a case that they could make. I just don't like it. But I wanted to acknowledge that, like, okay, when you look at those gospel records, there's enough room. You could certainly put the pieces together the way that they have. For me, it's important to tie those two things together for those reasons. But I digress.

[B]

Yeah. Anyway, I've just been going crazy looking through these gospels, trying to make sense of all this. And.

[A]

Yeah. And like I said in the last episode, generally speaking, they're pulling apart all these stories. You got the seven woes in Matthew 23.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, they're moving these pieces around in the final week and they're not trying, which probably serves them very, very well. And I'm probably in enough historical criticism scholarship that I actually, not only do I not mind it, I'm like, yeah, actually, let's be a little bit fluid here just to loosen this thing up a little bit. And you know how I have a disdain for harmonizing all the Gospels well, so I haven't had a problem with those. A couple things here and there that I would. I would frame differently, but I. I have kind of enjoyed. I think I've been avoiding that word, but I think I've enjoyed the way they have kind of seamed and sewed different pieces together. And it works for me.

[B]

Yeah. And it's absolutely a challenge. I did actually crack open my harmony of the Gospels as I was trying to sort this out for the first time in years. I've had it sitting on my shelf for a few months since I found it, but I actually got it out and it's just bonkers. In this section.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[B]

You know, there's four tiny columns. The lengths that you have to go to. To get this stuff to line up in some sort of quote, unquote, perfect way. Like, it's just. It isn't meant to be like that.

[A]

No.

[B]

And so what are you going to do when you're. You're not. You're telling the chosen the story of Jesus, you're using all the Gospels. And we'll see in this episode how they're taking specific details from each gospel and putting them into a single scene. You got to be loose with it because there's no making sense of it, because they're just not meant to be that way. If they were doing a show that was Specifically Matthew or specifically Luke.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Then it's like, okay, well, you're kind of bound to it at this point. But they're not doing that. And whatever. The Gospels aren't making it easy on us. The Chosen isn't making it easy on me. That's just the. It's just the way it goes.

[A]

Yep. And, like, I like what you just said. It's not. Of all the things it's supposed to make sense of, the historical harmony is not what it's trying to make sense of in our Gospel. So. Well said. I think it's probably a good spot for the spoiler horn, huh?

[B]

Let's do it. So we're at the Passover table again. This time we're doing John 14, and Jesus is talking about how he's going somewhere they can't go. The disciples are troubled and confused by this. I'm, like, trying to get into their mindset as I'm watching this scene. Like, okay, like, I've read this passage who knows how many times over my life. I know what's happening. I know where the whole story is going. They don't know us. I'm trying to get into the mindset as, like, yeah, okay, I can see that Jesus says he's going to send the Holy Spirit. He specifically says holy Spirit. And the disciples are like another person. So I'm like, would they have thought that's what Jesus meant when he said that? Like, not knowing what we know today? Is that what they would have thought? So I don't know. And then we get the John 13 version of Peter's denial. The specific language that they use is John 13. Anyway. There might be details from other parts too.

[A]

But, yeah, this is where I feel like the next episode, maybe even two. I think this is as far as I've watched so far. The angst and the anxiety are actually growing as we're going backwards because GS is going to comfort them. So that makes sense. But every subsequent episode, I'm trying to like. I think one of the things they've really done well in the Seder meal scenes is attempted to portray the kind of confusing. What in the heck are we talking about? What's going on? Like, total disorientation. Some disciples are getting it, some aren't. I've really, really enjoyed that. I purposely put down a note about Philip. We've talked about Philip more than once on the podcast. Those of you that have been with me in Turkey had a special lesson thinking about the life of Philip. Whenever I see Philip in the Chosen story, I'm always like, oh, Philip, oh. And so to watch Philip, Philip's trying to understand, like, he's like trying to understand and just thinking about his real life backstory of where his story goes. Just so, so good. But yeah, yeah, I didn't have a whole bunch of other. I love the spot where Jesus is sensing, like he senses all the angst, all their struggle, and he says, I'm giving you peace. Peace I give you. Which doesn't necessarily land for the disciples the way he probably wishes it did. But I begin to relate to this room a little bit more.

[B]

Yep. And then we get into the cred coming out of there, we have Jesus standing in front of Caiaphas and a bunch of others. And Atticus is like, hey, let's settle down. Let's let him speak. Let's let him say whatever he's going to say. Jesus goes into a little bit. Z quotes Psalm 69, the zeal for your house shall consume me. And this is bringing in the John 2 version of the cleansing of the temple because it says the disciples. John 2 says the disciples, they specifically give it to Z. Which makes sense, I think. But yep, totally brings that in. So of course we have Matthew 21, Mark 11, Luke 19 all at play here. The den of robbers comment. And actually I was looking, I, I made a note of this. I, I wanted to look into this further and I kind of forgot. I mean, I was seriously just neck deep in all of these different passages trying to look at all these details. But I noticed that specifically Matthew 21, he seems to be speaking to the merchants. He overturns their tables and then says the Danna Roberts thing to them. Whereas here they're portraying it addressing to the religious leaders. And I didn't look at the other gospels to see where that lines up.

[A]

But yeah, I definitely noticed that and made some notes about that. I wouldn't disagree with it historically, I think he probably said it to the merchants. But the greater, like the thing behind the thing behind the thing is what the Mishnah called the booths of Ananus of Annas. And like they're definitely behind this whole outfit. And so to direct it theatrically, to direct that at the leaders, I thought was kind of a nice touch.

[B]

Yeah. But then there's comments about destroying the temple and raising it again in three days. They're questioning his authority a little bit more to come on that later, of course, but they are starting to ask those questions. And Jesus kind of stomps off and says, I don't even Recognize this place. And people start to shout hosanna and blah, blah, blah.

[A]

I have a line in my notes I can't read, Brent. I have. I think it was probably Jesus that says, no more.

[B]

He says, no more. No more selling stuff or something like that. I didn't write it down, but I did see that it comes from the Mark 11 version of the story where it says, he overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons, and he would not allow anyone to carry anything through the temple.

[A]

No more shortcuts. No more.

[B]

Oh, no more.

[A]

I can't read my own writing, Brent. This. This is horrible because I have, like. It's all blocked out. Like, I love this line, but I can't remember. I can't read what the line was. Oh, well, yeah, somebody will write me and let me know what it was.

[B]

There you go. Yeah, I feel like I need to. I'm kind of. I've shot myself in the foot. I've seen the whole season, and then we've talked about two episodes so far, but I've rewatched several of the episodes. So I'm like, I'm getting everything mixed up in my head anyway. But I know what you're talking about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So then inside, Shmuel calls for a scribe. Like, we gotta write this down. Everyone's arguing. Shmuel makes a comment, and they're like, oh, that's not even what he said. So maybe we should get a scribe. Shmuel makes the reference to Jeremiah Yusuf ultimately kind of brings the conversation around and says, like, well, look, here's the deal. Whatever is happening here, the people are finding hope in Jesus that they aren't finding elsewhere. And Shmuel's, you know, pretty offended by that. But then Yanni kind of settles the whole thing, and he's like, look, Jesus is not going to lie, so we just need to ask him the right questions in front of the right people, and then we can achieve what we're trying to achieve.

[A]

Yep, absolutely.

[B]

And then we see Coffney work in the background a little bit, talking to a merchant. He's like, yeah, so you lost this. And that's like, this. And he's like, well, it's not that much, but it's still a lot. And so Kofni's kind of. He's being real gentle. He's not being like, you should be upset about, like, he's just cold and calculating in this moment.

[A]

Yep. He is definitely working the scheme of building an anti movement.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which when I saw this, and I'm still not far enough in. I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen. So I haven't watched far enough to know as he's doing this in this episode in particular, I was like, are they going to use Coffney and others like him to stir up the crowd that's going to be shouting crucify? You know, one of my big beefs is that we're always like, the common Christian phrase of, like, the same crowd that shouted hosanna. Was the crowd that shouted crucify. And I've been, like, really adamant. Like, no, it was not the same crowd. The Jewish crowd shouted Hosanna. And they may have been misguided and they may have misunderstood a host of things, but the crowd that's shouting crucify as a crowd worked up on behalf of the chief priests and this corrupt mob. And it is a completely different group of people that is completely corrupt. It is not the Jewish voice. It is a corrupt voice. And I'm like, at this point, I'm like, ah, man, are they. Are they going to have a Jewish crowd? These are the moments that I kind of just look for because it's what I'm. My antenna are up. I'm super hypersensitive to it. Like, is this going to be an anti Jewish and anti Semitic supersessionist thing? But there are these other moments, too, and in a couple episodes to come, there's going to be other moments where I'm like, I don't know. I don't know how they're going to do this. How are they using Rome? How are they using the high priest and the priesthood? How are they using Coffney? I'm not sure how they're going to pull all this together yet. So jury's still out for me. I don't know how it's coming together well.

[B]

And even in this episode later on, Coffney kind of leads this chant of no Messiah. He's trying to. He's partnering with Rome, blah, blah, blah. Yep. And they portray that as a very small part of the crowd. And then the larger crowd is shouting Hosanna. So.

[A]

Which I appreciated because I was like, yeah, I mean, you can't oversimplify this. This was not. This didn't fit into perfect categories. There certainly would have been people who didn't love Jesus. So at that point in the episode, I was like, yeah, okay. I need to not try to resist the fact that this was complex and nuanced and it didn't all fit one or the other, so well said.

[B]

So then Judas is asking Jesus about the no sacrifices in the temple thing. He's like, well, how are they gonna do their thing? And Jesus like, I need to just be alone for a little while. He's concerned about that. Jesus is definitely not concerned about that. Kind of gives him a little, a little stern comment there. And Peter's like, look, let's just all go inside. And Z tries to go with Jesus anyway. And they, they kind of convince him. And Big James says, we're going to need each other more than ever now. And John is kind of asking like, hey, who's known him the longest? Where is all this stuff coming from? Thaddeus is like, well, I saw him arm wrestle somebody one time. Yeah, totally. It's like, oh, yeah, that explains it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then Matthew is like, I want to be clear that he didn't strike anybody. He didn't strike any animal. He didn't actually hurt anybody. And Judas is still concerned about the sacrificial system. He's like, he's assaulting our entire system of worship. And then Philip is like, he's assaulting the wrong version of the system. Like, the worship is good, but the system has become corrupted and that's what he's taking out.

[A]

Yeah, I'm starting to see at this episode, I'm starting to see some of Judas as how they're framing Judas to start to take shape. Judas is trying to, like, work through what I would. I would call like an attack on what he perceives to be patriotism, national identity, all that kind of stuff. At the same time, Judas's argument in his mind, his own justification, is an argument about unity, but it's not true unity. It's that he wants Jesus to be super clear about stuff in a way that draws all Jews together. Like, he'll. He'll frame. I'm not saying he's right. He'll. He will frame his argument within the chosen scenes. Like, I just want you to bring. Solidify our common Jewish identity. Bring us together as a nation. Unify us. He's going to say that multiple times. And this is where you start to see that argument with some sense of clarity in Judas, which plenty of reflection points, by the way, for just the world that we live in. That's all I'll say about that. But I mean, plenty of moments of like, boy, some of these same impulses live alive and well today.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I was curious about Matthew's comment about, like, hey, let's make sure we understand he didn't actually hurt anybody because I don't see that in the cleansing version of Matthew. So I'm not sure why they had. I mean, maybe they just. They just had him do it for whatever reason.

[A]

It fits. His attention to detail is the way that I would say. He's like. He's a guy that wants to make sure you're not overstating the case or over exaggerating or over narrating how you're seeing something. He's wanting to say, like, okay, hold on, let's make sure we get our details right. He didn't actually. There's that impulse there. And that part fits for me. Maybe not in this gospel, but that part does.

[B]

Yeah. It was just the way they portrayed it made it seem like it was like, oh, they got.

[A]

Sure. But.

[B]

But it's not there. So. And you know, you're seeing that in the religious leader side of things too, where, where Shmuel's kind of taken some liberties with the. With Jesus language. And they're like, no, no, no, he didn't actually say that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, you know, each crowd has their. That's their people who are keeping things on track.

[A]

Yeah, good point. Each crowd has their reasons for misrepresenting things intentionally, unintentionally.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So the whole thing kind of descends into an argument there. Mary gets up and leaves. Andrew follows her for a minute. Mary's on her way to get some help. Andrew's kind of questioning her about that. And it's like, well, just. Just tell me you're not going to. You're not going to get hurt or something like that, or you're not going to get into trouble. And then she's like, I don't know. I can't. I can't say that. And he's like, ah, ok. But he lets her go. Then we're over with Pilate, who is getting a massage. Atticus and Caiaphas barge in. Caiaphas is like, look, you know, stuff's happening, but this is going to be handled. Don't need your help. Atticus is very concerned about the tax revenues. I'm trying to think why, what his motivation is, like, what. What does he get out of Pilate's success or failure?

[A]

Exactly, Atticus. Because I'm thinking about episode. So I can't jump too far ahead as I answer this and respond to this because it's episode five where he's going to make this real clear. But he works for Caesar. He is the hand of Caesar. In a way that the governor, he is not a regional leader. He is like Caesar, Secret Service. So he's got to accomplish Caesar's agenda and Pilate. And see, up until this morning, literally as we record this, this morning, I had kind of not loved the way that the Chosen had portrayed Pilate because he's kind of like this weak. And Pilot's kind of known as being like this bulldog. But actually, I have started to wonder if the team that's helping the Chosen and I don't know how much they interact with the historical scholarly team when they write this stuff. Who knows? I would love to ask. I'm going to ask next time we get a good interview. I want to get more clarity on how that relationship works because they seem to be just super well informed.

[B]

Well, from what I understand, Dallas and Ryan and Tyler, they write it all on their own.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And once. Once they have like their first. I don't know if it's first draft or like, once they have it written, then they give it over to the consultants.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The consultants give their feedback and then they make any adjustments or whatever. That's my understanding of it.

[A]

Okay. That's kind of a cool way to do it. Especially depending on how much that process goes back and forth. Maybe not multiple times, but I just mean, like, depending on how much that influences and shapes. Because it feels to me like whoever is consulting and informing is like a big NT Wright fan.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's almost like they're reading the books that I'm reading right now and I'm like, oh, wow, okay. Oh, that's what the Chosen did. Oh, wow, okay. The Chosen did that. Okay, I'm reading right now Jesus and the Victory of God, which is an older, kind of a pretty staple text for N.T. wright and his impact on scholarship. But I'd interacted with it as a source, but I hadn't read it from COVID to cover. So I'm reading it right now. And I mean, their depiction of Pilate is spot on. How N.T. wright. N.T. wright says Rome put Pilate there to be provocative and bully people. He's a provocative bully, but he was incompetent. I had not heard a scholar I respect articulate the incompetence as clearly as N.T. wright did. And I was like, oh, well, that's definitely how they're depicting Pilate. Is this incompetent? He's kind of provocative. He's kind of this face. He's a bulldog. He's going to make quick decisions and force people in the corners. But it's Rome behind. It's not Pilate's competence. Atticus represents this. Pilot's not going to do anything unless he has to. And Atticus is like, we have to do something, because if this becomes a thing, it will be too late for all of us. So that's how I see Atticus playing that part in the pilot Caiaphas. And of course, Caiaphas doesn't want Rome's involvement as long as he can keep it. And that's what Pilate would rather have him do. But Atticus is being. And I'm not sure how. I love the Roman pressure. I don't think Rome cares. I don't think the Atticus character is necessarily needed historically at all. But I could be wrong about that. And I appreciate how they're using Atticus to play that Roman agenda. You remember seasons ago when they introduced Atticus, I'm like, what is this guy? Why is he here? But it actually has served a really historically astute role in the writing of these seasons, Even though I don't think I need that flavor and that shade. And I'm not sure how it will all play out by the time it's done. I totally, really like how they've done that. This is a good scene of where it was. I saw that triangulation of Rome and Pilate, who is Rome, But I mean, Caesar's agenda, Pilate's governorship, and the corrupt religious leadership.

[B]

Yeah. And I feel like we get a little bit of that flavor of Pilate's incompetence, where he's like, well, I mean, I asked for extra forces, and Tiberius didn't send me anything, so, you know, maybe he should suffer some consequences. And Atticus is like, what, you think you're going to teach Caesar a lesson? You think that you're going to get away with that? So Caiaphas leaves, and Atticus speaks to him in Hebrew on the way out. And Caiaphas just kind of rolls his eyes at him. But then Atticus turns back to Pilot. He's like, look, dude, you're totally naive. Like, this is going to be a big problem. And Pilot is kind of. He doesn't have the competence to actually deal with it, but he has the competence to know, like, if I do this, then this happens, but if I do this, then this happens. And I'm kind of. I'm kind of stuck.

[A]

Yep, I appreciated that dynamic.

[B]

So then we're back with the disciples. Andrew's trying to get into the mindset of someone who doesn't actually follow Jesus like trying to understand what the reaction would be to what is happening here. Matthew's taking some notes, it seems like, but he leaves. And then Jesus comes in and tells Matthew that he's getting ready to preach. So they sit down and they're talking about that. And Matthew is reminiscing on the process of working on the Sermon on the Mount and he's like, I wish we could do that again. And Jesus is like, well, we don't actually have any time to do any more one on one work, but you're going to end up teaching this stuff, so pay attention this week. And then the rest of the disciples come in and Jesus is like, hey, I'm thinking about telling the story of the vineyard. And Andrew and everybody gets really excited. They go grab their props. And I love the little look that Jesus gives Matthew. He kind of turns back like, see, this is good, this is good.

[A]

Yeah, I, first of all, I love the conversation happening with Matthew. Just the personal nature of that. I had been missing some of those things. Number two, this doesn't make me abandon the idea that they have some kind of chiastic. Here we are in season five talking about the Sermon on the Mount and I'm like, oh, golly, this makes me still hang on to this wondering question about whether or not there's any kind of a design there. Nevertheless, I did like have this. I wouldn't call it frustration. It was just like, ah. I felt like there was a little bit of a wink and a nod towards all the people that were so mad that Jesus was preaching, practicing his sermon. And we talked to Dallas about that and they have Matthew say, like, you are doing that for me. Almost like you didn't really need to practice. You were practicing so that I could see you and hear you. And I was just like, oh, come on, stand your ground, lean into the humanity of Jesus.

[B]

But anyway, I, well, that's. That's coming later. That's coming later.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. It's very true. But yeah, I really like every time they do a scene of personal, the one on one character development, the intimacy between Jesus and his disciples could be any disciple, not just Matthew, but Matthew obviously a highly invested character for this. So I just really enjoy those scenes a lot as a watcher, a spectator.

[B]

So then we are in the temple and Jesus is teaching the parable of the talents, which is Matthew 25. So pulling a little out of order as far as Matthew goes for that. But the leaders arrive to question Jesus authority and he references John's baptism They have Zebediah give the answer, and he says, we can't actually say with certainty. And so then Jesus moves into the parable of the tenants, which is the vineyard story that he was talking about. This is also Matthew 25. And then Mark 12 and Luke 20 are the other versions. The disciples are acting it out. Judas is the only one who does not take the acting seriously. He is kind of checked out on whatever is happening here. He has too many other concerns.

[A]

Absolutely, he does. Poor guy.

[B]

Sorry. I think the. I think the parable of the tenants in Matthew might be Matthew 21. I think I might have wrote the wrong thing in one spot. But normally, Jesus is just kind of telling the whole story. But he turns and asks Shmuel what the owner would do. And so Shmuel gets into the story with him. I have noted that it is the Matthew 21 version.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Where this, like, conversation plays out. And then there's the transition into paying taxes. And Caesar. And Yanni is addressing Jesus on this, and Jesus makes him read the full inscription on the coin. So there's this greatly expanded conversation. It's pretty. Pretty short. Matthew 22, Mark 12, Luke 20. Very short conversation. In the Gospels, they. They expand this quite a bit, which I like. And Jesus makes a comment at one point about, like, oh, you know, like, the taxes. They have benefits, among other things. Rome offers their protection to us from foreign invaders. And Matthew. Matthew gets the reaction shot for this, and it's like, what? Yeah, and I. I feel like you could have gotten that.

[A]

You.

[B]

You could have got the reaction shot from a lot of people.

[A]

But, yeah, nice touch.

[B]

Yeah. Even. Even Matthew was like, that's out of place. Yeah, sure, that seems weird, but everyone is, you know, silent. Of course, Jesus answer, as the Gospels say. And then this is where coffee comes in with his chant, and no Messiah. No Messiah. And then everybody else starts chanting hosanna. And then, you know, Barnaby kind of breaks through. He's like, hey, you got to finish the story.

[A]

Yeah. I did appreciate Barnaby showing up and getting everybody back on track, which doesn't necessarily last for very long, but nevertheless.

[B]

Yeah, because then we're. Then we're back in the circle with everybody. And Shmuel's like, okay, I'm going to ask about this. So he asked about the greatest commandment. This is still Matthew 22, Mark 12. And then from here, Jesus moves into the woes of Matthew 23. Nathaniel kind of says to himself towards the end of this, like, oh, my gosh, he's inviting them to Kill him. So Nathanael kind of. Kind of gets what's going on here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He doesn't necessarily want to say it to anybody else, but he. He realizes. And Jesus watches. Watches them leave. And then he moves into the lament that's at the end of Matthew 23. And I was kind of surprised that the harmony of the Gospels did not try to harmonize that lament with the weeping over Jerusalem of Luke. Yeah, but they don't. They keep it separate. So. And I think. I think it is. You know, the language is distinct, but it just seems like they would have tried to smash that together, but they did not.

[A]

Yeah. And I thought that was one example where I was like, okay, it actually. What the chosen has done here actually makes sense to me. Like, not the whole weeping over Jerusalem, that part of the reference, but the whole putting. When they started doing the seven woes. First of all, we got to the last week and we hadn't done the seven woes. And I was like, so bummed. Like, how did they miss the seven woes? But then they worked it in here, and I was like, wow. And then I was like, oh. I kind of looked at it and I was like, yeah, okay. And, yeah, it's surprising the harmony doesn't try to smash it together because of that reference, but it makes sense why the chosen does put those stories together. So that was a good example of something where I was like, yeah, okay, it makes sense.

[B]

So then the disciples take Jesus away. Jesus kind of looks back and he's like, I'm just taking it all in one last time. And then they have their conversation about the destruction of the temple, which is Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21. And Jesus tells his disciples that he's done speaking to the crowds. Big James is like, whoa, wait, hold on. And Jesus leaves. So the disciples are arguing about what he means, what the time frame is. Is he done done? Is he just done for today? And Philip is like, hey, he said a lot of stuff today. Let's just relax a little bit. We all need some rest. So Philip, you know, is being the voice of reason.

[A]

Yeah. Which isn't necessarily the role that he plays, but it didn't feel jarring or make, you know, not make sense. So, yeah.

[B]

So then we have Jesus sitting on the Mount of Olives, and big James references Zechariah. Peter's asking about the signs. They sit. They sit down. Andrew and John are also there. So Luke 21 puts this whole conversation together about the no stone being left on another stone. And then this conversation about asking for signs and timelines and whatever, Luke 21 just kind of smashes the whole thing together. Matthew 24 is where we're actually getting the words of this conversation. And it does separate. This puts him on the Mount of Olives for this. But it's Mark 13 that specifies specifically John, James and John, Peter and Andrew out with him. So this is what I'm saying. Like, they're pulling from all the Gospels. Even though they're pretty much just using Matthew 24 for the dialogue, they are pulling details from the other Gospels.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

So Jesus talks about the false messiahs, the wars, all that stuff, and talks about the timeline. Only the Father knows when this stuff is going to happen. And he's like, hey, I just need to be alone for a little bit. I need to take this all in. So the disciples start to get up to leave. Andrew's like, but we're going to get more clarity on this. Right? Like, this isn't the end of the conversation. Right. And he doesn't really get an answer from that. And they're like, let's just leave him alone. John kisses Jesus on the head, says he loves him. Jesus says he loves him as well. Kind of a beautiful moment between Jesus, John there. I like that.

[A]

Yeah. It was a super interesting way, a super interesting scene to cover some of that content. And I really liked it. Just a whole new way to envision how some of those conversations could have happened and went down. It's not how I've always framed it in my mind, my mind's eye. But I loved, again, the personal, the small group, the intimacy, the tired, the sadness, the exhaustion, whatever. The thing is that some of the disciples starting to get it, that line, this is the end. Yes, Big James. I thought that was a really, really cool scene. And we're not even to the end of it yet because it's got a couple, I think, cool things after this. Yeah, go ahead, take us into the next little bit.

[B]

Yeah, I think I like just to say one more thing about the John point. I think John is getting it more than some of the others are at this point, but he's not really saying anything about it yet. He's still processing. He's still trying to make sure he understands correctly. But he's also just kind of trying to encourage Jesus and be like, hey, no matter what, I'm with you. Even though this is hard, I'm confused. There was another spot earlier with Big James where when James was saying, you're not done preaching to the crowds, Right.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Like, you don't really mean that. And John's like, no, he said that. So John's, like, trying to. Trying to assert his understanding a little bit, but he's not overplaying it because he's not actually certain yet. But I think he gets it more than most.

[A]

Yeah. I think John, especially as the gospel writer we're going to know him to be, he's getting it. And like you. I like how you said that. I kind of picture him maybe as an internal processor. He's getting it. Not completely, but probably more than most. I feel like there are parts of this that James gets most clearly in this moment on the Hill. And then later in other episodes, like James struggled earlier, like you were saying, it's almost like John helps him, like, come to grips. And then once James. James is like an external processor. James has always been the action guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For all these seasons. And all of a sudden, James like, all right, this is the end. Jesus is getting ready to die. He's the one that's like, this is it. Jesus is dying. And that's just like. You can see him coming to grips with that. He's just the upfront. I'm just going to say it like it is. John's like, okay, you can see him getting it, but he's also like, I don't know if I also get all of it, so I'm going to keep watching.

[B]

So then we jump over to Luke 19. This is where the Weeping over Jerusalem is put in the show. The words are straight out of Luke 19. And then Jesus looks up and he sees some sheep and he hears some singing. And then he finds David singing Psalm 5. And they make eye contact and smile. And then Jesus looks over the sheep and he looks back and David is gone. And Jesus looks around with no God goggles anywhere in sight. He is very confused. Where did this guy go? What just happened?

[A]

Yeah, I. It's kind of a mount of transfiguration, which now I'm realizing they never had that moment. And.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Chosen. They never did the mount, which I'm kind of glad, because that wouldn't. Would have been hard to have done, maybe. I don't know.

[B]

I'm kind of waiting for that in a flashback sort of thing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it. Yeah, absolutely. Because that. This gave me similar vibes, like Moses, Elijah. Okay, here's David. I thought it was a really interesting connection that's not in the text directly, but a really cool connection to make. And then. Yeah, I didn't know what to Do. It's like, wait, is he hallucinating? Like, is this so much humanity that he's. Because we know he's at the end of his physical human capacity. Like, we know that he's going to go to the garden, he's going to get arrested. He's sweating drops of blood. Like, he's at the very end of what a human being can take. So it's not a leap that I'm going to have a hard time making. But there was the. Okay, okay. Even Jesus is confused by this. I was trying to think. And there's been a couple other moments in some future episodes of this season, too. Like, I'm trying to remember, was there some reference in one of the gospels at some point where the angels come and minister to him? Is that in the garden?

[B]

That's. That's in his temptation.

[A]

In his temptation, Yeah.

[B]

I was trying to think if there.

[A]

Was one towards the end of his life, too, but that's almost how I was, like, trying to almost envision this or see this. Like, God's helping him make it to the finish line. Like, God's given him these little moments.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

God's ministering to his needs, filling his tank just enough to keep him going.

[B]

Yeah, I don't think. I mean, I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, that direct quote is definitely temptation, the one that I'm thinking of in my mind.

[B]

Yeah. I'm trying to think of different language that would make it come up in other spots, but I'm not thinking of anything.

[A]

I don't think so either. But at the very least, maybe we envision, if God did it in the temptation, why wouldn't he do it? Throughout Jesus life and ministry, God does it for you and I. Why not Jesus? Why not like this? Why not now?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, of course. And then the credits. That is the end of this episode.

[A]

That was pretty good. Three episodes into season five, I'm starting to be like, you know, it was a rough start for me. Season five, as usual, I'm kind of starting to come around a little bit. I'm like, okay, this is going to be a season that's just full of things that. Little details that I hate and little details that I love and a bunch of stuff in the middle. But I'm just like, okay, I'm. I'm all right. I said, this isn't getting worse. It's getting better. I'm coming along. We'll see.

[B]

We'll see.

[A]

There's going to be some key moments that are going to be a real make or break for me. So, yeah, I'm going to be a hard person to say. Satisfied. But for now, I get to say I'm doing okay.

[B]

Well, with every successive episode, I seem to be digging more and more into the text, so mission accomplished as far as that goes. I'm always absolutely, you know, I'm like, ah, why can't they make this easier? But then I'm like, yeah, but I just spent an hour digging through the Gospels, like, yep, what's to complain about? This is great.

[A]

Yep, Yep.

[B]

So we do have a, you know, I'll throw that NT Wright book in there for the Shownotes. So we got a little bit of extra stuff, stuff there for you in your podcast app or@bayama discipleship.com if you want to get in touch with us. If you have an interesting theory, if there's something we missed. What was that thing at the beginning of the episode that you were saying? You're like, maybe, maybe somebody will write in and tell me that whatever that was, if you had one of those moments, you can use the contact page@baymond discipleship.com and I will just say that everything that we do is made possible by listeners like you who support our work. So thank you and thank you for joining us on the podcast today. We'll talk to you again soon.