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- [00:00]
Marty Solomon
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Brent Billings
This is the Bama podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today I'm with Reid Dent and El Grover Fricks to talk about greed. Sorry for the simplistic intro, but that's all I could wrangle out of these people for something to say at the top of the episode.
- [00:20]
Marty Solomon
How's this for an intro? There is this wonderful tradition in American film of guys in suits, I think, usually with slick hair and very nice watches, motivating salespeople to make a lot of money. This is like a motif. There's a movie called Wall street from back in the day. Michael Douglas, you seen this movie? Elle, you're making big eyes.
- [00:46]
Elle Grover Fricks
No, I was thinking the other one, and then you pivoted.
- [00:50]
Marty Solomon
I'm gonna get there. I'm gonna get there.
- [00:51]
Elle Grover Fricks
Oh, good.
- [00:52]
Marty Solomon
A lot of the things I've been reading about greed actually make reference to this speech that Michael Douglas gives where he says, greed is good. There's this other great speech in this movie. Glengarry Glen Ross, Alec Baldwin.
- [01:05]
Brent Billings
Yes.
- [01:06]
Marty Solomon
Always be closing. But the one actually that I want to talk about is the Wolf of Wall Street. Is that what you were thinking of?
- [01:11]
Elle Grover Fricks
Yes, that's what the eyes were for. Oh, okay.
- [01:15]
Marty Solomon
So this is not just like a blanket recommendation to everybody to go out and watch this film.
- [01:20]
Brent Billings
I don't know if we'd recommend any of these movies really technically, but there.
- [01:24]
Marty Solomon
Is this amazing scene and Scorsese, we don't need to do a whole analysis of his work, but greed is a major motif in a lot of Scorsese's movies. And Leo DiCaprio plays this guy, Jordan Belfort. He's a real life person who swindled a lot of people out of a lot of money. And he's talking to his sales room. He's talking about facing problems. And he says, at least as a rich man, when I have to face my problems, I show up in the back of a limo wearing a $2,000 suit and a $40,000 gold watch with an expletive in there. And then there is this amazing shot where. And we're going to come back to this, but he. He throws. Takes off his watch and he just throws it across the room, this sales room. And there's. The shot is like close up in slow motion of this watch just flying and all of these hands close up underneath it in, like this posture of worship, trying to grasp the watch as it flies over just out of reach. And he says, I want you to deal with your problems by becoming Rich.
- [02:34]
Elle Grover Fricks
Wow.
- [02:35]
Marty Solomon
I want to read a little bit of Beakner here, because this. This represents another side of this conversation about greedy man.
- [02:42]
Brent Billings
What a.
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Elle Grover Fricks
What an opener. Yeah.
- [02:45]
Marty Solomon
Buechner, in his book Wishful Thinking, has an entry for each of the seven capital vices, and I would be remiss if I did not share them.
- [02:53]
Brent Billings
Absolutely.
- [02:53]
Marty Solomon
R. Daily Beechner for greed. He says, avarice, greed, concupiscence, and so forth are all based on the mathematical truism that the more you get, the more you have. The remark of Jesus that it is more blessed to give than to receive is based on the human truth that the more you give away in love, the more you are. It is not just for the sake of other people that Jesus tells us to give rather than to get, but for our own sakes, too. And so we're here today. We're having a conversation about these things, about greed with our friend L. Hi. Hey, Elle. Elle, why did you want to be a part of the conversation on greed? I sent out a text to the group and was like, hey, this is what we're doing. What do you want to be a part of? And you were like, greed, greed, baby. All day, Greed, give me greed.
- [03:51]
Elle Grover Fricks
I'm sure that's a direct quote. Absolutely sounds like me.
- [03:54]
Marty Solomon
I'm sure I could find the text message.
- [03:56]
Elle Grover Fricks
It's all good. Yeah. I think two things. One thing is that I've been kind of playing around on this landscape of, like, what's the Christian history we call it in academia, the reception history on desire. Right. And I've been playing around with that idea personally and also on the podcast, talking about these different things and ways that things have been translated and sometimes bringing that out as I've been noodling over desire. And of course, greed is unchecked desire. Right. That just says, nope, more, more, more, more, more, more, more, more, more. So I'm Intri. I'm kind of revisiting my own framework around desire and what I was raised to think about needs and that whole sphere. So I'm excited to be led along a certain train track of thinking about, however you've organized, thinking about greed and how that's going to fit into what I've been wrestling with, which I don't mean to do that on the podcast for processing for later. But the other thing is that if I were to boil down, like, what are the two radical things that Jesus taught us about? Right. What is our religion about? I would say one of those things is resurrection, that if you take it out, it's Not Jesus anymore. It's not Christianity anymore. The other is the love your enemies, forgive and disperse your possessions to those who are in need. Right. Those things are always packaged together for Jesus, like, how do I access the kingdom? Get rid of all your stuff. You know, and we do a lot of ducking of that idea and so hearing kind of about the opposite of that. And what is it that gets in the way of our ability to participate in kingdom lifestyle? I hate that. That sounds so. I don't like those words.
- [06:04]
Marty Solomon
No, no, no, it's good, it's good.
- [06:05]
Elle Grover Fricks
What are the obstacles that keep us in the way of pursuing the kingdom of God? I think there's not enoughness. That is the engine behind greed in my imagining anyway. Maybe you'll say something else is interesting to me.
- [06:17]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, let's. Let's start actually then with thinking about desire. Because I think actually we talked about this a little bit in the intro, but especially these first kind of three. Some people call them the carnal vices. So lust and gluttony and greed that are about desire and sort of this very hard to satiate desire. But desire is for sure like a good thing. And one thing I want to remind from the get go is that I think at their heart, vices actually have some good thing in mind, some good desire in mind. Augustine, he talked about virtue as various movements of love. So the way that love works itself out is through these virtues. So like he would say temperance is love that preserves itself entirely for God. And courage is love that is ready to just bear anything for the sake of God and so on. And that vice is like a disordered kind of love. It's a thing that there's a legitimate good, but it's kind of the desire has kind of gotten out of whack. Like it's being desired to maybe like a disordered extent, and then it causes us to seek it out in a way that is like diminishing or destructive or harmful. Elle, you and I talked over text message about how a vice, like the word is, is like a blemish that's. It's like a stain that's become a part of the fabric.
- [07:55]
Elle Grover Fricks
Right.
- [07:55]
Marty Solomon
It's like this thing that is kind of grafted in a little bit. Grafted is not the right word, but it's. It's become a part of the fabric. It's very hard to pull out and separate. But it's also not the same as like a sin.
- [08:07]
Elle Grover Fricks
Right.
- [08:07]
Marty Solomon
It's a tricky thing to navigate, but I think too often you Know when we, at least in some of the church settings that some of us grew up in, we were kind of given this because of this. This fear about sin. It was like, well, desire is. Is bad. Right. And so you got to like, squash desire or.
- [08:26]
Elle Grover Fricks
Yeah, right.
- [08:28]
Marty Solomon
So just as a starting point, a vice is a. Is we're after something good, but we're going about it in a. In a bad way because the desire is disorder. So actually this. This a question. What do you think it is? Like, what is the legitimate good or a. Some of the legitimate good things that we are after? That greed can then kind of become a distorted way of chasing. And so greed, yes, as you said, is this kind of. It's unchecked acquisition. I think we think of it as just, I want more money. Right. That's like the simple way to kind of think about it.
- [09:04]
Elle Grover Fricks
Sure.
- [09:04]
Marty Solomon
But I think it becomes about this. Like, we're going to get more and more and more, and it could be about anything. The word avarice actually comes from the word. It just means craving. And, you know, the dangerous thing, of course, is that, like, more is a finish line that can never be reached.
- [09:20]
Elle Grover Fricks
Right.
- [09:21]
Marty Solomon
And then it just devolves into this. I just need to possess it. It needs to be mine. But maybe it begins somewhere good. There's some good thing that we're after. There's some desire we have, and then it gets twisted into this dark thing. Any thoughts about what those good things might be?
- [09:39]
Elle Grover Fricks
Totally. If I'm like drawing the outline in my head. You mentioned the distinction between a sin and a vice. There's sin, which is missing of the mark. Right. And then there's the word the aven, which we usually often translate iniquity, but not always, which has to do with crookedness. So that's like you have missed the mark so many times, you've been drawing your arrow and shooting it the wrong way so many times that there's a. There's a bend to your skeleton that shouldn't be there, that requires God's movement to put back into alignment. And so thinking about where vice comes in to that with this, like, it's an ingrained part of the habit. But maybe it's not. Like, you don't need a whole chiropractor situation to come in and fix something yet. But it is like a habitual place, a habitual spot, a habitual stain. But where that comes from, or thinking about how it can start, we just, you know, pop open Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which I actually really despise but just in general, General thinking about it being like a safe structure in which I can house my family is a legitimate need to desire. And nobody, even in America, and even in American Christianity, I think would be like, boo. You shouldn't want a home that's within the realm of accepted desires. But of course, it doesn't often stay that way. Well, yes, I want a home, but it needs to have this much and it needs to have this, and it needs to have this. And, you know, I saw on the Internet there's this, and surely I should have that as well. And so it's like the belief that once you upgrade something or once you have another, or once you have a little more, that then you'll be happy. And then a lack of discipline that's turned toward gratitude, I think, is the soil from which greed springs. Like, I do have a home, and God has provided it. And I am so thankful that I have a place to be safe with my kids, with my family. That's incredible. Instead then opening up the little glass device that lives in our pockets, being like. And yet what if.
- [12:11]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, I mean. I mean, everybody wants. We want to know that we're going to have enough and it's going to be okay.
- [12:17]
Elle Grover Fricks
Right.
- [12:18]
Marty Solomon
We want security, some kind of security, even, like some measure of comfort.
- [12:22]
Elle Grover Fricks
Right.
- [12:22]
Marty Solomon
We desire that. And I don't think that's a bad thing.
- [12:25]
Elle Grover Fricks
Right.
- [12:25]
Marty Solomon
There's this continuum of, like, comfort to leisure to luxury, and like, somewhere in there is what is good and healthy but begins as a good thing. And I think even people, you know, I don't know that anybody who's. Well, some would. But there are plenty of people who are caught up completely in a vice who would not recognize that. And they would say, I just want the same thing that anybody wants, you know?
- [12:48]
Elle Grover Fricks
Right.
- [12:49]
Marty Solomon
Or even, you know, like, I talk to college students a lot who are like, well, yeah, when I have money, I want to be able to do all this good. Right. I want to be able to give to the church or to whatever the causes are, or to just be able to give to other people. And it could start that way. I mean, the net is super wide because we have to use wealth for so many different things. Not. And I. When I say wealth, I just mean, like, whatever kind of resources we have at our disposal.
- [13:18]
Elle Grover Fricks
Sure.
- [13:18]
Marty Solomon
But, yeah, so we're not here just to thoughtlessly, like, criticize wealth and be like, oh, it's, you know, things and money are. That's part of the interesting conversation, I think, in the Christian tradition, Is figuring out, like, what is that sweet spot? And what does Jesus have to say about it? And where. How do we. How do we end up getting beyond that line, which I think we'll talk about in a little bit. But I just. It's not just like the guys on Wall Street. I think we think of those images of, like, you know, the Jordan Belforts of the world, if you've seen that movie, or.
- [13:49]
Elle Grover Fricks
Sure.
- [13:50]
Marty Solomon
Or like, Scrooge in his counting house, you know, just obsessing over his money. But one of the things that I've learned reading about different people's thoughts on greed is that you don't necessarily have to have a lot of money in the bank account for the vice to, like, get a grip, you know?
- [14:08]
Elle Grover Fricks
Yeah, totally.
- [14:09]
Marty Solomon
To have this, like, out of order desire that turns into this just unchecked acquisition. Like, gotta have more, gotta have more, gotta have more. Brent, what are you thinking? You got anything to add to that?
- [14:19]
Brent Billings
I like that phrase, unchecked acquisition. I feel like I'm having it. So my dad died last year in October. And so my sister and I and our spouses have been kind of dealing with that and going through the house. And, like, the first time we went there, it was a matter of cleaning out, like, a lot of food and a lot of trash and a lot of, like, somebody who just didn't really do the daily maintenance of life. And then the second trip is when I, like, started to reckon with all of the other stuff that was there. And we did an estate sale, and a huge portion of that sale was stuff that was brand new. Half of it still in the wrapping. Like, so many tools, so many, like, guns and ammo things. Like, so much ammo. Like, more ammo than anybody could possibly. Like, he was ready for the apocalypse. So there's, like, a lot of, like, paranoia stuff tied up in there. So, like, trying to untangle it at all and, like, figure out, like, what element was greed, what part was just, like, unchecked fear. Like, there's a lot of stuff that's potentially tangled up. But one of the things that I was thinking about as I was going through is just like, oh, this box or this tool or this. Like, so many things. It's like, oh, how many times could he have visited us in Idaho? And yet he stayed in Kansas and bought another one of these things, another tool, another box of ammo, another rack to store food supply. Like, just so many choices like that. And I don't know that I can see yet at this point, like, what the good side of that was what were the good intentions that led to that before it got unchecked? I can't actually see that yet.
- [16:17]
Marty Solomon
Definitely something isolating about actually the vices. A lot of the vices have an isolating kind of factor to them. I want to just say, I want to try to be sympathetic as we talk about vices throughout the series, recognizing that, like you said, there's probably. It's never as clean as, like, well, greed was your thing, you know, like, there are many different interweaving we talked about in the intro episode. It's less like an Excel spreadsheet where you can be like, this is your column and row, like human nature is more like this. This web with these nodes that are all interconnected.
- [16:50]
Elle Grover Fricks
Right.
- [16:51]
Marty Solomon
And just trying to recognize the complexity and the difficulty of that. And also to. To say, you know, like, your dad is not Scrooge McDuck with his giant vault of gold where he goes swimming in it, you know, and yet that doesn't mean that he's not subject to the vice of. Of greed. And I think what's helpful as we go through the series for listeners is to just try to stay open to like, how could this be me too? How is this me, right? Like, we're not trying to just judge like, oh, greedy people. But if we try to take a. A less caricatured and a hopefully a little bit better rounded look at the vices to see, like, oh, there are ways in which this is a part of me as well, which the other.
- [17:33]
Elle Grover Fricks
Side of that is liberation too. Like, the thing about doing that kind of work to say, oh, I've had a particular archetype of what this particular vice looks like. But as I've spent time meditating on it, I realized that, oh, I have this kind of narrative playing. That's good news. Because we have the ability, thankfully, through the power of the Holy Spirit and being together in community and focusing in on that kind of work, to experience the liberation on the other side of that. Right. If anyone had had a chance to talk to your dad, Brent, I know that you weren't super aware of the extent of the gun ammo stuff before he passed. Right. If there had been that opportunity to unearth, like, what kind of fear are you experiencing on a day to day basis that this is what makes you feel safe? You know, let's talk about that. If anybody had been able to do that work and he was open to that work, the other side of that is a life with less fear. Right? Like you know, even if you do think the apocalypse is around the corner, like, my lot and my destiny is held in the hand of a loving God, like, that's pretty helpful.
- [18:51]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [18:52]
Elle Grover Fricks
So hopefully, as we go through and we're not just sniping at people, but then also sniping ourselves for fairness, but saying, like, what's on the other side of this fence that we've built around ourselves to be like, this is what keeps me safe. This is what keeps me secure. This is what keeps me successful, whatever it is.
- [19:12]
Brent Billings
Yeah. And I absolutely see some elements of greed in my own life, for sure. I have too many things, no question about it. You know, I depend on people in my life, like my wife who can say, do you really need that? And, you know, she's not always successful in convincing me to hold back that desire for whatever it is for more. But, yeah, without relationships, because that was the last. Like, my dad was alone in the house for the last three years, and I wonder how much of that came in during that time period.
- [19:45]
Elle Grover Fricks
Right.
- [19:46]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. One of the things that we talked about was how with vices and virtues, it's not a specific, prescribed list of action that you must take, but rather like a sort of guideline by which we communally kind of figure out we have to discern what does greed look like here or what does courage look like here, you know, as a virtue. And there is something to be said for, you know, this is a little bit of the conversation later, but that continuum of, like, strict necessity to. To comfort, pleasure, enjoyment, and, like, figuring out where we should be on that continuum. Right. Because it's not strictly what is necessary, or at least I don't think it is. But I want to save that for a little bit later. I want to. First, I want to take a second in each of our episodes to consider the cultural conversation, just kind of situate ourselves, like, what is the state of the society that we live in when it comes to greed? In this case, I read this. This really solid article that's actually really recent from Notre Dame's. They have this thing called Church Life Journal that this guy Dan Gergen wrote. And this just came out, like, a month ago. We can link it, Brent, but he's talking about this psychologist, social psychologist named Eric Fromm. Do you know this name?
- [21:01]
Elle Grover Fricks
L. No.
- [21:02]
Marty Solomon
Okay. Just. Just curious. And he wrote a book called to have or To Be. And Gergen says. He says this book in which he maintained that there are two basic modes of existence, having and being. And then he says the difference is Between a society centered around persons and one centered around things. So is it fair to say that we live in a society whose basic mode is maybe more about having than about being, is maybe centered more around things than around persons? Question mark.
- [21:35]
Elle Grover Fricks
Yeah, totally. So I'm so excited to crack this open because I don't know if anybody's known this or noticed this over the past few years of being on the Bateman podcast, but I am a woman. What? And so I experience the culture and advertising and the algorithm is probably different than what you guys experience. I know that because I know my spouse's algorithm looks very different from mine. Anyway, we get advertised different things and we get slightly different narratives. And that can be from the world and society, that can be from the church. And often for women, there is this false front that it's about being that it's about your family, that it's about your home, it's about health, it's about feeding your family. And so it's like, of course, don't you want that? What a great way to sell a product. If you're not interested in our product, you probably don't love your kids, not worried about microplastics enough to like repurchase all of these things or whatever that looks like. Then why don't you care? Aren't you a good woman who wants to make sure her family is healthy and well provided for? So it's put that way. But then immediately, all of the steps up the greed ladder immediately appear of these things that are linked to prestige and linked to being in the know that have that same animating force, which is if I just do this next step, then things will be better. And again, that animating force is different than the baseline desire, which is okay. It is okay to want your family to be healthy. It is okay to notice like, oh man, my kids allergies are crazy this time of year. I wonder if there's anything different that we could do. Any dietary thing, any supplement thing, right? There's nothing wrong with wanting your kid not to have terrible allergies. But once you adopt that posture and then start believing the messages that just keep coming and keep coming and keep coming and keep coming, that if I do something else it'll make a difference and maybe, well, that and this, because this interacts with it this way. And then I'll just need to purchase this next thing and it becomes this whole time consuming, prestige laden, value signaling system of purchases you have to make and ways that you have to advertise that you've Made those purchases so other people know it's a giant wellness empire which has so many narratives about salvation can be for your family if only you get them on this particular diet or this particular thing, or eliminate anything but wooden toys, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
- [24:39]
Marty Solomon
Such a good point. It unveils this sort of trick that of a lot of the consumer society is built on that is it's like having parading as being or maybe the other way around, you know?
- [24:51]
Elle Grover Fricks
Right.
- [24:51]
Marty Solomon
And I think it totally happens to men too. But what you are being told that you will be is just a different thing. But the method is still like have this thing, have this certain vehicle or have this certain whatever the thing is so that you can be something. And it's this gnarly thing to disentangle yourself from because you don't perceive. I mean, of course you're like, well, I want to be more of that. I want to be more whatever this virtuous so called like ideal woman or man or whatever the thing is, like you want to be more that, but you're like, well, I guess I got to have this if I want to be that. And yeah, it's pernicious. Yeah, it is pernicious. And just to become more of what I perceive as a good thing, I have bought this sort of lie that is I have to have more of this to be more of that.
- [25:44]
Elle Grover Fricks
Right. I need a bigger TV because I'm a person of hospitality and generosity and we want to have people over. And maybe that's true. I'm not against like big TVs, but after you have the big TV, what kind of narrative starts playing? Well, we should really have a bigger couch so that we can fit more people. Does it ever end?
- [26:07]
Brent Billings
Yeah, we need more seats in my basement so that more people can watch something together. I was thinking about the distinction between. I mean, I'm absolutely prone to collecting all sorts of physical trinkets and whatever, but I also know that I have too much. And so I like find ways to get more that are not in that physical take up space sort of thing. It's like, oh, I want a bigger number on my letterboxd account for how many films I've watched. And I judge myself and judge other people based on how big that number is. And then I'm like, can I really call myself a movie lover if I've never seen the Godfather? Can I really call myself a movie lover if I don't have a good sound system with my TV that's already bigger than Maggie wants, and I want an even bigger one. There's all sorts of ways to like, oh, I don't need another tv, I'll get rid of this one. But I want a bigger one the next time I get a tv. Yeah, it's like my, my way to justify it and make it, like, fit my life, but I'm still like, going for more.
- [27:08]
Elle Grover Fricks
Sure.
- [27:09]
Marty Solomon
The letterboxd is a good example, Brent, of one of the sort of outworkings of greed. One of the ripple effects, one of the consequences is what I'm calling the unpurposing of things where, like, possession becomes for its own sake, we decouple something from its good, God given, generative kind of potential and purpose to be just a thing to be collected or displayed or possessed. And so like, it's perfectly good to want to watch the Godfather. It is a terrific movie. But then you see what happens. Like the, the vicious, the vice part of it is like, I need to watch the Godfather so that I can put it on my letterboxd and people know that I've watched this thing, you know, or I need to have like, I have a perfectly serviceable, even decent sized tv. But then it's like, but if I had the bigger one, then, you know, it becomes. And this is where the vices all start to like, churn, churn together. Right, right. And this is where actually our conversation on virtues will be helpful because virtues like temperance or virtues like prudence or justice actually then enter into the conversation about, well, okay, so do I. Should I get a bigger tv or should I get another, like, outdoor patio set for the sake of hosting? Or, you know, let's. Let's talk about some other ripple effects then of greed, like what I. What ends up kind of happening, I guess, in the soul, you know, to the person when that unchecked desire for just like more and more really kind of takes root. I was probably 16 or 17 when Fight Club came out.
- [28:47]
Elle Grover Fricks
You guys seen Fight Club as a millennial? No.
- [28:52]
Marty Solomon
It's like this great piece of anti consumerism, you know, I guess it's propaganda or anti consumerist? Propaganda, propaganda. But Tyler Durden's got this great line then that, like, really stuck with my, like, you know, teenage self that I vowed never to then give in to. And he says the things you own end up owning you.
- [29:15]
Elle Grover Fricks
Sure.
- [29:15]
Marty Solomon
So Aquinas, he actually named restlessness as one of the sort of like sub vices of the capital, vice that is greed. So we talked about this in the intro episode, but how there were he Imagined them as kind of like captains in a military or like the. The commanding officers. And then their foot soldiers would go out and do, you know, all of this destructive work and so restlessness, being one of those for greed or anxiety. And I think it's pretty. It's pretty. It can mean several things. It can mean that sort of paranoid feeling that you have that you don't have enough.
- [29:47]
Elle Grover Fricks
Yeah.
- [29:48]
Marty Solomon
That you are constantly lacking. But then also the anxiety of having to then preserve what you do. Have to kind of protect it at all costs. You know, actually, there's a. This is a much longer story, but one of the most unflattering moments of my whole life. I was in Spain doing the Camino in 2019, and we had hiked like, you know, six days, and it wasn't terribly long, like 60 miles or something like that. And we finally get to Santiago de Compostela, where you go to the mass. It's like kind of the point of the pilgrimage is you end and you have Mass or you take the mass. And the actual cathedral was closed for renovations.
- [30:30]
Brent Billings
Oh, no.
- [30:32]
Marty Solomon
So we had to go to a different church down the street, which was. I mean, there's. Those churches are also gorgeous. But, you know, the.
- [30:38]
Elle Grover Fricks
Sure.
- [30:39]
Marty Solomon
Anyway, at that particular church, though, they're not accustomed to having all of the tourists, the. The pilgrims.
- [30:46]
Elle Grover Fricks
Sorry, of course, pilgrims. My bad.
- [30:52]
Marty Solomon
And so they're making everybody leave their packs outside the door just in a giant pile. And I was like, I'm telling you, this is very unflattering. But I, like, freaked out because I was like, what about my stuff? And I felt this anxiety over, like, these are my things, and if I don't have them, basically, what am I? Is kind of like the deepest seated fear. I didn't say that out loud in the moment, but I was like. I mean, I was. You guys. I was not going to go into the mass in Spain after the Camino because I was like, my stuff is in here.
- [31:27]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [31:27]
Marty Solomon
And I felt that. That restlessness that Aquinas talks about. And you know what actually got me over it? I thought about having to come back home and talk to Derek D. Royer, who you guys know and who was on that one episode about friendship forever ago. And I just thought about having to look him in the eye and be like, I didn't. I didn't go in because of. Because of my backpack. And so I was able. But I went in late. Like, everybody had already gone in. It was starting. And I was like, okay. And then I finally left it Behind. And I was like. And I felt the freedom of, like, being released a little bit from that kind of greedy, like, get your hands off my stuff sort of spirit. But I do think that that's, like, something that happens to us. There's this anxiety that sets in about, like, we got to take care of all this stuff now. What happens if. And that's where we need insurance and we need savings accounts in cases.
- [32:13]
Brent Billings
Europe is built to just poke all of those anxieties because it's like, what do you mean? I'm going to leave my passport with you, random person behind this hotel desk, and you're going to put it in a drawer? Like, what are you talking about? What do you mean? I'm going to leave my bag here? Yeah, I would totally have reacted the same way.
- [32:32]
Elle Grover Fricks
I love that story and talking about this angle on the vice because there is some positivity, some hope that comes with greed of, like, oh, once I just start doing this thing, once I have this thing, then I'll be better. And that's a positive motivator, whether that's a material object or, like, oh, once I start doing cold plunges, then my life will really come together. Going back to my wellness empire thing. But the actual outworking of that belief is not something enjoyable, which, like, hearing you guys talk about the letterbox thing, it's just like, I know that I have that capacity to become that person, and I don't want to because I know it's so unpleasant. Like, nobody cares. There's this thing with, like, pride is we can't get to other people to perceive us in a certain way. No matter if we dedicated 1000% of our effort to it every single day, people are still going to perceive us however they perceive us. So just that feeling of anxiety, that generative like, oh, but I just found out my fish oil isn't the right. It's not bespoke fish oil from Norway. That one. There was a study, and that particular one is better than this Alaskan fish oil I got from Costco or whatever. You know, it just, like, that feels so bad to me that it's like the. It's like God's gift to us to let us experience that discomfort in order to point us to the. The fact that these ideas and narratives are wrong, that they're untrue on a fundamental level, not just like, it's not true that your stuff wouldn't be safe, like, here at a church. It's going to be fine. You know, who knows whether that's True. But it's fundamentally untrue that you would. Okay. As a person. Right. If you're. If you had your backpack.
- [34:29]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. I'm thinking about the promises that the things make that then they can't keep. And the effect, like you. Like the way that you just said it and going back to this idea of like, possessing things for their own sake and they kind of lose their purpose. Right. Like, another example I have with this is like being in a. Having a workshop right out back. And there is this temptation that greed says where it's like, more tools, newer tools, bigger tools. And it. And what happens is it becomes about just having them for their own sake. But, like, you miss out completely. Like, then you get them and what they just. If. If you're not actually invested in the thing, then they just sit there and you're like, ah, I got this cool shop with look at these tools. Like, isn't this cool? But like, the real joy that actually comes from using the thing in order to do something good in the world. That is exactly. Then what greed kind of takes away. And it's so.
- [35:19]
Elle Grover Fricks
It's.
- [35:19]
Marty Solomon
There are times where I feel like greed isn't so much wicked as it is just really, like flimsy and impotent. Like, it just ends up looking really pale and thin and like a shadow of. It stops you from cultivating the kind of flourishing in the world that I think God wants you to cultivate with the possessions that you have or the wealth or the materials, the resources. Like, that could become something. But when we stop asking the question, which is what greed causes us to do, stop asking the question of what is this for? Then it just. It's. They're stupid, they collect dust, and then somebody's got to clean it out when we die. And, you know, it just ends up. There's a lot of waste in a society that struggles with greed.
- [35:58]
Elle Grover Fricks
Right.
- [35:58]
Marty Solomon
Something else that happens. I don't know if this is a word, but I'm going to use it as a word. The money vacation of everything, where you go down the road long enough and you kind of start to measure everything and even everyone by their profitability. You know the show 30 Rock.
- [36:15]
Elle Grover Fricks
Yes.
- [36:15]
Marty Solomon
Love this show. And there's an episode where at various times it's showing you first person, like the different characters on the show, like, their point of view and how they see the world. And so like Tracy Jordan, Tracy Morgan, when he looks at the world, he sees everybody as himself. Like, everybody is just a bunch of Tracy Jordans talking back to him. But when Jack Donaghy, Alec Baldwin, who's the big corporate bigwig, he just sees, like, price tags attached to everything, like, even people for positive or for negative. And I think this is kind of what, like. And I. I'm guilty of this. There have been times where, like, when I have met a certain person, the thought has come in where it's like, how can this relationship help me get what I want? Like, how could this profit, you know, me or our ministry? Like, this happens in the name of ministry, where it's like, oh, this person could be a donor, you know, and you start to look at it in along the lines of greed, and suddenly they just become, I guess, cardboard cut out. Yeah, totally. Like, Aquinas, like, he had other. These. Some of the other foot soldiers he talked about. They come from greed, are like treachery, you know, sort of just like betraying people.
- [37:26]
Elle Grover Fricks
Yeah.
- [37:26]
Marty Solomon
Or falsehood, like lying to people. And deceit comes from greed because you are trying to preserve what you have or trying to get something that they have or use them. I think about the prophets in the Bible and the way that greed is this kind of threat to justice in a biblical sense.
- [37:44]
Elle Grover Fricks
Prophets with a ph, I'm guessing.
- [37:46]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. Thank you. Actually, that did not occur to me. Prophets. Talking about prophets, Brent, I have a passage there from Amos. Would you read that?
- [37:59]
Brent Billings
Hear this, you who trample the needy and do away with the poor of the land, saying, when will the new moon be over? That we may sell grain and the Sabbath be ended, that we may market wheat, skimping on the measure, boosting the price and cheating with dishonest scales, buying the poor with silver and the needy for a pair of sandals, selling even the sweepings with the wheat.
- [38:21]
Marty Solomon
So Aquinas talked about fraud, also an insensitivity to mercy as other foot soldiers of greed. And what I think is interesting is that here and I think elsewhere, the biblical prophets, they paint a picture that, like, your greed defrauds the poor. And it's interesting because it's like. Well, it's not actually technically their possession. Right. Yeah. Right.
- [38:47]
Elle Grover Fricks
Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it.
- [38:49]
Marty Solomon
Well, you talk about it. I mean, I have, like, what. Yes, say. Say more about that.
- [38:53]
Elle Grover Fricks
So, like, in American culture, this is mine. And if I choose to tithe to the church, then that is my money going to the church. And if I choose to give to whatever thing, that is my money. But if you read Leviticus or happen to go through the painstaking work of translating it, which has been My honor and great labor for I don't know how long it took me a year. That's not God's opinion. God's opinion is the corner of your field belongs to the poor. It's not even like, the corner of your field belongs to me. It's not even the field is me mine, and I'm telling you to give it to the poor. It's the corner of your field is in the possession of. It belongs to the poor. And when you cut that short and when you dishonor that, you are stealing from them, which is the just total opposite of how we think about possession. We're like, ah, that's so entitled that this person thinks that I should have to give, blah, blah, blah, when I've worked hard and they haven't. Right.
- [39:55]
Marty Solomon
I mean, this is starting to get real uncomfortable with our American capitalist sensibilities. Right.
- [40:04]
Elle Grover Fricks
Yeah.
- [40:04]
Marty Solomon
But, you know, are we. Again, how could this be me? And am I willing to, like, hear and shift a little bit? And what if this isn't mine? And that's the thing. I mean, greed turns everything into mine or everything into potentially mine.
- [40:18]
Elle Grover Fricks
Right.
- [40:19]
Marty Solomon
And it's like, ah, no, that stuff that you are hoarding could be actually that belongs to somebody else. You may not know their name or who they are, but this is a gross misappropriation of resources that belong to God.
- [40:32]
Elle Grover Fricks
Right. Sometimes it can be harder to grapple with that systemically. To be like, oh, yeah, sure, we wouldn't have poverty in America if I just hadn't purchased this thing. Like, we still would get over it. Like, we need to have big systemic change. Not like me just being a little bit better. Okay, fine, like, there's more conversation to be had there, but to dial it in more, more personally, more intimately rather than the whole economic structure. For so many people, statistically, huge problem in their marriage is debt. And possession, I believe is the number one debt driver in millennial marriages is car payments. People who have made a choice a little bit beyond their means, but for whatever reason, driven by society and culture and greed being like, this one's just a little bit better, I think we can swing it. And then they don't. And then money is also a huge divorce driver in marriages. So it's not just like, oh, sure, the unhoused population would disappear if we were just all a little bit more generous. But also, what's it doing in your family? What's it doing in your relationships when you're choosing, like, oh, well, I don't think we can afford to do this vacation or whatever. But we can afford for me to update my whatever with a new shiny fill in the blank. And it seems like that happens all the time. People who justify, like, no, I'm the one. I'm the person bringing home the money. And so I get to decide where that goes. And I've decided that I deserve this. And that's just how it is. And then relationships fracture.
- [42:22]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. How's. How's that working out for you? Is always a helpful question to try to. If you can just be honest about it. Right. I think another aspect of the modification of everything is you come to start to believe that everything can be solved with money. Maybe like, you. Not. Not just practical problems. Like, there are some practical problems that, like, you kind of need resources to actually solve. Like your air conditioning breaks. Like, you're going to need some money to replace it or repair it, or, you know, getting the kids to school might require some kind of a vehicle. Right. So those are practical problems. But then I think there is this pernicious thing that happens where you can start to believe that, like, the deeper problems, like loneliness or even like, a failing marriage can be solved if we possess the right things, or at least we. I mean, maybe you're just trying to ignore it long enough, you know?
- [43:12]
Elle Grover Fricks
Right.
- [43:13]
Marty Solomon
But, like, it goes back to that Jordan Belfort thing from the Wolf of Wall street, where he says, I you to solve your problems by becoming rich. Like, he just says it dead on. And I. I take that to mean all of your problems. This leads me to the. I. I came across this really interesting idea when I was reading this book, the Cardinal and the Deadly by Carl Clifton Soderstrom, one of the books I've been reading. And he says excessive material acquisitiveness is a manifestation of our vicious disposition to. Toward human temporality. Which is quite a sentence.
- [43:47]
Elle Grover Fricks
Sure is.
- [43:48]
Marty Solomon
Well, what he means is that greed, way deep down, is about, like, a fear of death and about like some kind of attempt to control that, to control time. Because, you know, the one thing that really we can never have enough of is time. We all run out of that, like, eventually and we die. And there's this. What he. What he says is he goes on to talk about, like, our possessions give us, like, a sense of permanence. Right. And. But it's an illusory sense that, like, if we have enough, there is a sense of permanence or security. Our crap is going to keep us alive. And I'm just curious, do you buy that? Like, do you think that there is something to that, that the out of control desire to possess things is related to like maybe a deep seated, we're not even aware of it, fear of our own, our own demise that is coming for us all.
- [44:43]
Elle Grover Fricks
I think there's a possibility that there's room for that at the table of like reasons that people pursue stuff and believe things will save them. I think for some people the idea of success and achieving happiness and like building our own Eden on earth, that's not in alignment with the way that God wants us to put the world back together. That for some of us that extends to fear of death and the ability to overcome death. Especially if you're somebody who's experienced death. Right. Maybe that doesn't cross people's minds if they haven't experienced death. You could always argue that that's like a deep subconscious thing that they just haven't realized. But I think the American dream says you can be anything you want to be if you just work hard enough. And like the underbelly of that idea is if you're not happy, that means you haven't worked hard enough to achieve enough and to have enough like, so just keep doing that. Right. If you, you know, maybe your grandparents are immigrants and they opened a small business and you managed to expand the small business and now there's a franchise somewhere else, but you're still unhappy. The American dream would be like, well, be whoever you want to be. Just work harder and franchise in more communities and blah blah, blah, blah, blah blah blah. And so I would want to say I think that there is of course I have a background in cognitive behavioral psychology, so I'm always going to be coming back to that. But what are the underlying beliefs? There are very few people, although they certainly exist and they're very popular on the Internet and, and kind of fun to ogle. But some people think that they're the real deal. People who believe that they can cheat death by doing all of their billionaire things and literally trading out their blood and getting UV light on their face every day. Right. That's like an actual thing in our zeitgeist of like technocrat dream worlds. Can we expand beyond, you know, the limits of humanity via what is basically greed? Right. So I think that's there, but I don't know if it's the very bottom of the, like the soul. What's, what's happening?
- [47:05]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I was just intrigued by it. And that's why I phrase it as a question. Like I, it made me think about the parable of the barn builder. Yes, Brent, actually, can you. That's maybe the one piece of text that I just want to read a little bit at length here. So this is preceded by the famous, you know, watch out against all kinds of covetousness, because life does not consist in the abundance of your possessions. Good wisdom, Jesus. And then he tells them the parable, Brent, can you read that from Luke 12?
- [47:34]
Brent Billings
And he told them this parable. The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. He thought to himself, what shall I do? I have no place to store my crops. Then he said, this is what I'll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. And I'll say to myself, you have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy, Eat, drink and be merry. But God said to him, you fool, this very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself? This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.
- [48:16]
Elle Grover Fricks
Hmm.
- [48:16]
Marty Solomon
I'm not trying to do a whole deep dive on this entire parable, actually. Did we do this one when we did the parable series?
- [48:22]
Brent Billings
We did 3, 14. This is the episode number.
- [48:24]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. So people can check that out. But I do want to just note a couple of things that it is interesting that what the guy is confronted by at the end is his own demise this very night. This is the end for you. But then the question then, who will get what you have prepared for yourself? And I remember, I think we talked about this in that episode. But one of the things that I always walk away with when I think about this, and maybe those of us who are in the throes of greediness would do well to consider is like, well, what if we ask that question before it's time to die? You know, who will get what you have prepared? Like, whose will this be? Is maybe a good counter greed kind of question that we're God is trying to confront us with here. I mean, if the idea is like your life doesn't consist in this, watch out, be on your guard. Because this can, this can end up eating up your life all the way to the very end. I mean, notice like this guy is one of the other features of this parable is that he's just completely alone the whole time. There's, he's a lot of eyes and mys in this parable. I, I, I, I, I, my, my, my, my, my. And so maybe if There is. I mean, if there is something there that this parable speaks to that and challenges us with a different kind of perspective, that is okay. If the things aren't going to be mine, whose will they be?
- [49:41]
Brent Billings
Okay, Reid, we have gone far beyond the average slash expected runtime of these episodes. And I, like, is it just because greed is such an issue in our culture? Am I talking about this stuff at length? Because I'm seeking to justify myself.
- [50:02]
Elle Grover Fricks
Blame America, not me.
- [50:04]
Brent Billings
Yeah, I mean, whatever. Like, it's definitely a problem for me, but it's definitely a problem for our culture. Like, there's a lot of stuff tied up here, but, like, what do we actually do about it? Because I think we could talk about this for another two hours.
- [50:18]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, for sure. You know, the culture is us, and we are the culture. Like, the culture is just a bunch of us's stacked up together. So the individual communal feeds into each other.
- [50:26]
Elle Grover Fricks
Bunch of Tracy Morgans.
- [50:28]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, I think there's. I mean, there's some of the conventional, but maybe not very helpful, like, folk wisdom is like, don't trust in things, trust in God. But I don't actually know exactly what that means very well.
- [50:45]
Elle Grover Fricks
So can I pick at it a little bit?
- [50:47]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, please.
- [50:47]
Elle Grover Fricks
It reminds me of the Luke 12 in that the very last line of that parable is, this is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves. And we tend to put the period there mentally, but is not rich toward God is really the end. So I think when Paul does his eschatological portion in Corinthians, when he's talking about the refining fire and what makes it through, just focusing on greed and, like, trusting our things and whatever they're achieving for us, whether that's control or Zen or prestige or competency or the ability to have a good time or security. Right. You can work your way around uniqueness. Right. Whatever we think it's accomplishing, are we putting in that same amount of time into being rich toward God? What does that mean? If I trust that I do get to take something with me, according to Paul, through the refining fire, and it is the things of the spirit, then trusting God, that those things will lead to both, like an intentional refining of my spirit that'll make me more enjoyable to be around, but also more enjoyable to myself, but then also that it will end up, however that whole passage works out in a literal way to be a deeply meaningful, joyous record of a life. Like, that's the practice of becoming rich toward God. It's like, I'm not gonna make my life be about having a bougie coffee every morning. I'm gonna make my life about like writing a thank you letter to one of my, you know, somebody who's had a impact in my life. I'm gonna do that as a practice every morning or spend time with the Lord every morning. That's my investment in the kingdom. That's my investment in God. And that is an outworking of trust. Right. Because God's the one who says that that stuff is the stuff of joy and the kingdom and power and blah, blah, blah, et cetera.
- [52:50]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. And that, that is the trusting God. Being rich toward God is something that happens through the things. That's why I get a little bit uncomfortable because like, trust in God, not in things like is can be seen as like, oh, well, things don't matter, just ignore them or whatever and just think about God or something. But the way that we are, I think rich toward, like, this is where the actual reality of talking about hospitality and talking about the things that make like joy and creativity and like, all of that actually involves your wealth and needs. Like, needs you to use those things for their intended purposes. But this is the tricky part, right? So we live in a culture as we've already talked about, that is like kind of having obsessed and kind of things centric. And so we're probably want to give ourselves like a pass and like, oh yeah, we'll probably just a little more and a little more. A little more is fine. Right. That's something that we're a little bit blind to. But navigating the actual question of what is the appropriate relationship to wealth and material goods, like, that's, that's a tricky thing. Should we live like monks and just like nip it in the bud before it has a chance to and just like forsake everything? Should we own anything at all? Like, just enough? What is that? I mean, so what do you think about the people who would say, well, oh well, Jesus went to the rich young ruler and he's like, sell everything you have and give it to the poor. Right? So like, is that what we should be doing?
- [54:14]
Elle Grover Fricks
I think that community tradition is super important. And if you're not in a tradition that ever says anything about money and possession, then maybe rethink that. Yeah, interesting. But because, like, there is a history that's super helpful and informative and fascinating of different Christian communities deciding what this looks like. So like Wesley, head of Methodism. Wesley taught his disciples, right? He didn't call them that, but that's fine. He taught his disciples, pick a number before you have all of the wealth, and that's your cap. And when you do reach that cap, everything over it, you give away. So, you know, you can look that up on the MIT livable wage calculator that tells you in your county how much money you need to have to be able to be okay. So there's that kind of practice, but I wouldn't say everybody needs to have that specific practice. There are communities who do give away their things, right? Who do believe in, like, no simplicity. Looks like this, right? The Amish are like a great. A great example of that. Like, no, we don't really care what the world says. We believe that it looks like this. For all of its eccentricities, we believe in living this way. So finding a community and a tradition that even if it doesn't do it completely right, I wouldn't worry so much about that as, like, are we trying to live into the commandment of Jesus here and not just give ourselves a pass? Because, like, well, it's really hard to parse. I feel like sometimes if Jesus were to, like, come to LA in the year of our Lord 2025 and have like, all the bougie stay at home moms over, he would be like, oh, yeah, we're gonna do a sound bath with affirmations, you guys. And he would bring, like, all the rose quartz and all the, like, little gongs and stuff. I don't know if you guys have ever seen this, and you haven't. That's okay. Other people do.
- [56:15]
Marty Solomon
I live in Missouri, in the rural part.
- [56:17]
Elle Grover Fricks
I don't live in la, but I. My algo is different than your algo. He would set all of it up and they'd all be like, meditating on their bespoke yoga mats, which were like $200 each. And then he would, like, go to ring the first gong and then he would say, sell all your crap. And then he would leave. This is the kingdom of God. This is peace. You want Zen, give away your wealth. And I feel like half of the people would just be affronted, like, what the heck? I paid money to come to this or whatever. I paid my nannies so much to take care of my kids to come to this. But the other half of the people there would be like, wow, that was so wise. Like, what kind of metaphor do you think? He's like, sun winding for us there. Be like, wow, give away, like, more. More time, more of my being. I am an expansive spirit, right? And we always figure out Ways to. To shimmy through. And so that's why I think community, tradition can be such a helpful key. To be like, we're all doing this together. It's not going to be perfect. But there's accountability in that and there's joy and community in that. Rather than being like the one Pharisee, being like, wow, you have a TV. Wow, I haven't had a TV since 1999.
- [57:33]
Marty Solomon
That reminds me. So, you know, he told the one guy, give it to the poor. Sell everything you have. Then he also scolded his disciples when they were like, this woman could have sold this and given it to the poor. And he's like, guys, you're missing what's going on right in front of you.
- [57:45]
Elle Grover Fricks
Right, Exactly.
- [57:46]
Marty Solomon
I came across this phrase into the book that is one of these books, understanding what is appropriate and becoming of human beings. And like, as we are, are we made for things? Are things made for us? And I guess what I like, what it comes down to for me is understanding that what we are made for is. And I've already said this, but I'll just say it again. I think it's meant to be expressed through the way that we use the things we have, the wealth and resources, but not buy them by theirselves. Right? These are not the markers of our value or our purpose as people bearing the image of God, but as people bearing the image of God. We express, like, the love of God, we represent God, we partner with God through the things. We're meant to face outward toward the world in love with this stuff, which may or may not mean, you know, them giving it away or selling it to various extents, like, that's for the communities to figure out. But recognizing that what greed does is it kind of turns us completely in on ourselves where we're just, like, facing the wrong direction. We're facing our display cases, we're facing our accounts, we're constantly checking our portfolios and our followers and all these other things instead of, like, using whatever we can to face outward toward the world in love. I came across this great word, liberality. I don't think it's really a word that we use. I don't know. I mean, it's related with the concept of generosity, but it's kind of like, I think of generosity as like, the act, right? To be a person who is, like, in the act of giving, but liberality. And I might be splitting hairs here, but I think of it more as, like, the disposition, right? Like, think about the open hand versus the closed Fist. And so liberality doesn't mean that, like, you don't necessarily own anything, but, like, you. You care about what you have, you care about what it means to you, but also you're not obsessed with holding on to it at all costs. But the liberality spirit is like, okay, here it is. Like, what can I do with it? You know, what can God do with this? And we got to be aware of the things that make that really hard. So I think there's, like, for some of us, it's that sense of, I worked really hard for this. Right. And this is mine. I am the rightful possessor of, like, whatever this thing is. Or there's that fe. That, like, I'm not going to have enough if I'm open with this. But this is where I think that, like, the actual act of trusting God comes in to say, okay, it was mine, but I didn't really earn it by my own. Like, if I go down deep enough, like, this was the warning to. In. In Deuteronomy with. Which is the part we kind of skipped over earlier. But God says, yeah, be careful when you settle down. And you're going to have all of this stuff, but you're going to be tempted to think that you made all of this for yourself, or you're going to be tempted ultimately to forget God, who delivered you out of slavery in Egypt. And so you got to remember that this is where this comes from, and then just be. Be open with it, I guess, is kind of the picture. I get the. The liberality was a nice way of encapsulating, like, what is. What is the image of God person? Like, what's their vibe when it comes to the things they have, you know?
- [60:48]
Elle Grover Fricks
Yeah.
- [60:48]
Marty Solomon
And that when you give to. It doesn't always. I'm not saying don't give to the needy, but, like, there are opportunities for gift and giving everywhere. Even just, like, practicing it amongst your own friends or your own family. Like, it's sometimes weird to me how everybody kind of obsesses over. Like, we splitting this even. Are you getting this part? Are you getting this part? Like, I'm like, I don't know. Somebody just pay for it. Like, when I was in college, my best man, Keith, there were like 10 of us that went out to this Mexican restaurant, La PA here in Kirksville, together. And, you know, we're all poor college students. Nobody has any money, and we are all getting up from the meal, and I was like, where's Keith? Nobody knew where Keith was. Go up to the front to pay and the guy's like, oh, yeah, your check was already paid for. And I was like, what? And I look out the window and I see Keith with his backpack on, running down the side of, like, the main boulevard in Kirksville, sprinting.
- [61:42]
Elle Grover Fricks
Oh.
- [61:42]
Marty Solomon
Like he had just committed a crime running away from the scene. But he was like, I'm not gonna haggle over who owes what and who's like, I'm just gonna pay for it, you know? And so there's like this. This opportunity to be like. And sometimes even in our tithing, right? Like, we become sort of like, weirdly inappropriately money minded of like, exactly 10, right? Or something like that. Where I think what we're called to is a disposition of liberality. And there is real joy if you're just like, I got it, you guys, I got it. This is what it's for. I'm gonna die anyway. I can't take it with me. Nothing is really mine. I mean, this is like the fundamental, deepest sort of thing. Like, not even your own life is yours. You didn't give it to yourself, right? What about your stupid money? Sorry, I'm just like, getting a little worked up.
- [62:28]
Elle Grover Fricks
Preach.
- [62:30]
Marty Solomon
It's good.
- [62:31]
Elle Grover Fricks
It's good. Preach.
- [62:32]
Marty Solomon
That song that we. We talk about it a lot in our. In our house that comes from Psalm 90 that says, teach us to number our days that we may gain a heart of wisdom. Like, if I. If I just can get that into my head, I can't really. It sounds. It sounds trite, but you really can't take it with you. And so if you know that, how will you let that shape? How will it let you shape a heart of wisdom in us? That's all I got. Somebody else say something.
- [62:58]
Elle Grover Fricks
Don't need to. Was good. The only thing I chuckled at was when you said this Mexican restaurant in Kirksville, as if it's not the only Mexican restaurant in Kirk.
- [63:08]
Marty Solomon
It ought to be. It ought to be. Shout out to shout out to La PA and anybody who's like, mikasa, you don't know what you're talking about. That's just for the Kirksville listeners. Very small, very small subset of Baymon people.
- [63:21]
Brent Billings
Well, yeah, it's good. It is good. And I feel like the. The through line here is the relationship aspect. Like, the relationships help us keep our greed in check. The relationships give us an opportunity to be generous as a counteraction to greed. So, yeah, I like that.
- [63:41]
Marty Solomon
And it's what it is. The fruit of the anti. Greed. And this is actually with the other vices as well. A big thing that they rob us of is like connection to. To other people, relationships to other people. And if we can get the ordered rightly and do it the right way, then what we, you know, it's like the George Bailey. Sorry, I'm bringing it back in. But he's garbage rich because he's got friends, Al. And he's got friends because he was generous to everybody.
- [64:10]
Elle Grover Fricks
That part is fine. That part gets a pass for me. The rest of it can go in the rubbish.
- [64:15]
Marty Solomon
Fair enough. Wow.
- [64:16]
Elle Grover Fricks
I'm ready. What isn't ready for the rubbish, sheep, are these self examination questions, which nothing gets me excited like some self examination questions.
- [64:24]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, I've almost forgot about them.
- [64:26]
Elle Grover Fricks
Fire up the pistons.
- [64:29]
Marty Solomon
Okay, here we go. Actually, Brent, Brent, can you read these self examination questions that people might. This is more just a tool for any listeners. If you want to take these and do some thinking on it, it might be helpful. So Brent easily has the most soothing voice of the two men here.
- [64:50]
Brent Billings
Well, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. How many hours do I spend acquiring or thinking about acquiring things? Why do I have to read this? Read. Do I maintain certain relationships because of what they will get for me? How do I feel when I look at my things? Despairing, salivating. How do I feel when I buy something? Dread fulfilled? What's the meaning of. Enough.
- [65:29]
Marty Solomon
Ellie, you got any. I was going to ask you if you had anything to add.
- [65:31]
Elle Grover Fricks
Absolutely. Okay. It's not going to be as succinct as what you have going here, but I got bored of trying to think of like the perfect phrasing of the things that we bring before our eyeballs, of the things that we choose to invest our intention in, how much of that content, whatever it is, is either by design or by just natural effect bringing out something in us. Which plays into this narrative of more of an earthly more rather than a heavenly more, of coaching us into believing that if we just had one more of this, things would be better and Eden would finally be re established. Or is it pointing us toward a longing for the things of God? The things that God has chosen to set before our feet, set before our eyes, set us on this different kind of path. Because it's easy to have the intention of like stuff and capitalism and blah, blah, blah. And then if we like scroll for an hour before going to bed, what's marinating in our soul throughout the rest of the rest of the day before we go to sleep? About where ultimate life satisfaction comes from and what is a worthy life?
- [66:50]
Marty Solomon
That's good all right, Brent, better get us out of here.
- [66:53]
Brent Billings
All right, we've got a handful of things in the Show Notes. You can find those@baymodiscipleship.com or in your podcast app in the Show Notes. Not an easy conversation. So if you are not in some community, you need to find some. Some way or another, you need to have some kind of relationship to pour into you, to help you examine these things and to pour out into. As an outlet, because I think this is something that we all struggle with. At least I want to think so, so that I can feel better about myself. So that'll do it for this episode. Thank you for joining us on the Behemoth podcast. We'll talk to you again soon.
- [67:38]
Marty Solomon
Just as a sidebar, like, what about collecting things? This is just purely like a kind of a curiosity in this conversation, but I went through a phase where it was like, I like to play games, like to play board games. And I'm. I know that there are some board game players out there who are like, they. They know exactly where I'm going with this, where it's like, I have a shelf and I have a collection and I have however many games. And then it's like, oh, but when's the last time you. Did you. Have you played that game in the last 10 years? Will you play it in the next 10 years? Do you need to then buy other things? Right. And people collect all kinds of things. Right? Not just that.
- [68:10]
Elle Grover Fricks
Right.
- [68:11]
Marty Solomon
But there's something I can. I was thinking back about this experience, and, like, when someone with a collection looks at their collection, what is the thing that goes on inside of them? Like this. There is this feeling that is like. It's hard for me to name, but it's almost like. Well, it's the having and being where I feel like I somehow am more if I have more, like, I feel better if I, you know. Do you guys know what I'm talking about? Are you collectors of anything? What do you think about this? Should we throw at our collections? Should we have things sitting on our shelves?
- [68:43]
Elle Grover Fricks
Okay, pause, pause. So this is the same to me as the letterbox conversation, because still, like, wanting to see the Godfather, because all of your friends have seen the Godfather and they say it's so amazing and you would love to talk about it. It with them. Whether to corroborate their opinion or to get into some kind of fun, vicious battle I don't think is necessarily terrible.
- [69:08]
Marty Solomon
However, I don't either. I don't either.
- [69:09]
Elle Grover Fricks
Right, right, right, right. However, there's the distinction there? Because there is, like, a little dark worm in there of, do you think, which brings in the other vices, I presume. But do you believe that if you just watch this one, that will elevate your status in some way, and then your friends will believe, like, oh, this person is a legit movie person because they have, like, a new take on the Godfather after what, a hundred bajillion years that the Godfather has been on? Is that what we're looking for? Because the board game thing, certainly, of all things to collect, that's very easy to justify. Of course. I'm about community. I'm about community building. I'm about having fun with my friends in, like, very wholesome ways.
- [69:55]
Marty Solomon
Anti digital media revolution.
- [69:57]
Elle Grover Fricks
That's right. No more screens. None of this garbage.
- [70:02]
Marty Solomon
Just my plastic in my garbage.
- [70:04]
Elle Grover Fricks
Yeah. There is always, like, lots of packaging in there, too. But so what's the animating desire underneath that? So. Which you pointed out by saying, what do you feel when you look at your collection? Because do we also believe that you can have community and community building without any of those things? Yes. Okay, so what is the threshold? What's, like, the right number? That's a question for thinking about and discussing, but I'm more interested in, like, is there some kind of worm in there?
- [70:37]
Marty Solomon
That's a good word.
- [70:37]
Elle Grover Fricks
In the apple. That is good. The apple is good. Is there a worm that's whispering like, but if I just got, like, more then. Right. An if, then kind of statement of, if I didn't have these, maybe people wouldn't, like, coming over to my house anymore. Or if I just had the newest, coolest ones, then people would know how, like, hip and young I am. Right. Those are the kind of worms that are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Pause.
- [71:05]
Marty Solomon
I mean, Brett, you know what I'm talking with Letterboxd, right? It's like the stats at the end of the year.
- [71:10]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [71:11]
Marty Solomon
And. And it's like, oh, man. And sometimes it is about, like, there's. This is the. The vain glory or the pride vice, where it's like, image is kind of everything, and you're concerned with how people look at you. Right?
- [71:21]
Elle Grover Fricks
Right.
- [71:21]
Marty Solomon
And it can be about that, but sometimes for. It's just. For me, it can even be about, like, I just want that number to be bigger. Like, I want to have more things, you know? And that's. That's where it really kind of becomes this bad joke, where it becomes about more simply for the sake of more. Like, maybe it's at Some point, I stop caring about the community aspect, and it's like, I just want more of these things, and I will be happy. I mean, it becomes this very rudimentary, you know, rough hewn, sort of like, I want more. More will make me happy. And we don't say it in those words, but that's kind of the phenomenon, that the worm is now, like, eating out the apple, like, from the inside.
- [72:00]
Elle Grover Fricks
Right.
- [72:01]
Marty Solomon
I don't know. Brent, what are you thinking?
- [72:02]
Brent Billings
I think there's two sides of it. Like, there's the number side of it, and certainly I've seen a lot more movies recently, but I see so many movies by myself. So is that really.
- [72:15]
Marty Solomon
No, no, that's. That's not. That's like, just wanting to go see the movie by yourself. I don't think that's. That's not really the issue. That's.
- [72:20]
Brent Billings
Well, no, that's not bad. But it's just like, okay. How much. My most memorable experiences, my most meaningful movie experiences have been with other people. Whether I'm seeing it with the person or trying out a new format or whatever, it's always better with people. So knowing that you love the Godfather, I think the best scenario for me, and maybe it's not you, maybe it's somebody else. Lots of people love that movie, but seeing it with somebody who already loves it and, like, giving them the opportunity to experience my first viewing in their presence as opposed to me just like, you know, in my basement by myself, like, yeah, I got the bigger tv, so we could. We got the bigger couch, we got more chairs so we can have more people over. But really, at the end of the day, most of the time, I'm just watching a movie by myself, and I could probably watch it just fine on my laptop, but there's so many different. And no matter how many movies I see, there's always going to be a movie person out there who's going to look at my list and like, wait, you haven't seen this Kubrick movie? You haven't seen this? Like, because the movies that the. The Hollywood stars talk about, they're like, oh, this movie from 1937 you haven't seen? It's like, no, there's no end to it. It's insatiable.
- [73:44]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, totally. I feel like we're delving a little bit away from. I want to get back to talking about, like, possession and have. I mean, I'm glad that we're talking about this in sort of an immaterial sense of, like, collecting experiences or, like, a resume of something. To me, it starts to feel a lot more like the vainglory kind of conversation. So I want to pull us back to talking about, like, actual possession and having.