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- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
- [00:06]
B
This is the Bama podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we are with Red Dent to talk about pride. I guess I don't know, Reid, what's going on here?
- [00:17]
C
Well, we're going to get into that, but vainglory.
- [00:19]
B
Like, why? Like my. I don't know if my ancestors. I'm not really that sure about my ancestry, but my ancestors came over here and fought so that we did not have to be under the tyranny of the king. Why are you shov the King? James English down my throat every week.
- [00:35]
C
Because the nuances of the vices have been lost largely because of language shifts. And pride is a thing, but it is different and importantly different, which we're going to get to. But now my cold open. Brent. I've been doing these cold opens where I talk about other things. Anyway, have you ever seen the movie?
- [00:53]
A
Hey, listen, since we've already screwed up your cold open, what I love about this is I usually have to work so hard at just coming at Reed, but Brent's got it taken care of today. Like, usually I'm the one that's like, rah, rah, rah, Reed and Bren was just like, down with the King.
- [01:12]
C
That is exactly what that actually.
- [01:14]
B
That fits well.
- [01:15]
A
All right, go ahead. Cold open. Here we go.
- [01:17]
C
Well, hold on. No, but Marty, I feel like you and I have been, like, doing so much better since our earliest days.
- [01:22]
A
People are seeing our real.
- [01:23]
C
Like, our friendship is real at being kind. It's really. I think we only have reason to get feisty over football anymore.
- [01:30]
A
That's the only reason. That's the only reason.
- [01:33]
C
Okay, cold open. Pretend that none of that happened. Listeners, here's your cold open. There's a 1982 movie called the King of Comedy. Have either of you guys seen this?
- [01:43]
A
I know it, but I have not watched it that I know of.
- [01:45]
B
I have not, unfortunately. I've heard you and Josh talk about it and it's definitely on my list, but I have yet to see it.
- [01:51]
C
Yeah, it's a Martin Scorsese movie from 82 starring Robert de Niro. And he plays this guy named Rupert Pupkin who desperately wants to be famous and. And he wants to be a famous stand up comedian. It's just that the thing is that he's really bad and he's just not funny at all. And he develops this, or he already has this kind of obsession with this established famous standup comedian. In the movie, his name's Jerry Langford and Pupkin is just this awkward Kind of social misfit kind of guy and who is not aware of himself that he is just not a very good comedian. But what he wants more than anything is to be famous. And so as the movie goes on, it ends up with Rupert kidnapping Jerry Langford, the famous comedian, and holding him for ransom, where the ransom is. He demands that the network put him on, you know, like basically the famous late night talk show and give him a chance to do his stand up comedy. And it works. It happens. And so he, Robert De Niro, just in this incredibly sort of tacky, glittery coat, stands up there with a bow tie and he does this bit and it's just, it's awkward and it's not that funny. And it ends with him telling everybody what he has done just right there on national tv, like, I kidnapped Jerry Langford. And everybody's laughing and he's like, no, no, no. And he says, the final thing he says is tomorrow you'll know I wasn't kidding and, and you'll all think I'm crazy. But I figure it this way. Better to be a king for a night than a schmuck for a lifetime. And there's this incredible shot where Rupert is like in a bar room watching himself on tv and he is his own biggest fan, like, so enamored with himself doing stand up comedy. And this is what the essence of Vainglory is as we'll get into, as we discuss. But first, our daily Beechner, who actually talks about pride. And side note, I almost didn't do a daily Beechner this time, you guys, which forgive me, wow. But it's because he has an entry on pride but not on Vainglory. And again, the distinction matters, but because it's all I've got, I'm gonna read beginner on pride. And he says this. Pride is self love. And in that sense, a Christian is enjoined to be proud. Another way of saying love your neighbor as yourself is to say love yourself as your neighbor. Self love or pride is a sin when instead of leading you to share with others the self you love, it leads you to keep yourself in perpetual safe deposit. You not only don't accrue any interest that way, but you become less and less interesting every day.
- [04:44]
A
I'm actually mad that you almost didn't share that Beechner quote with us. That was fantastic.
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B
That was amazing.
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C
What about it? What do you like about it?
- [04:52]
A
Well, it just speaks to that constant. Like these are things we talk about in faith spaces so much like love your neighbor as yourself. Self care, self love. But we also know that pride is bad and self centeredness and selfishness is bad. And this was just typical Beechner fashion, such a poetic way to state the obvious eloquently, but then also find the truth of the tension that we're trying to wrestle with, which is if your self love is a giving of yourself, well, that's not self love. That's not pride at all. That's everything in its proper place. And I love that phrase. Safe deposit. Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good.
- [05:32]
C
I mean, so when we get into the nuances of vainglory, we'll see that this actually kind of does play. Because there's an irony in vainglory, which is that while what you most care about is, you know, yourself being on display, when all you care about is that self being applauded or praised, it actually requires that sort of, paradoxically, you're keeping a whole side of yourself away from the public view or the view of others. And so there's only a part of yourself that you're willing to share. And even if that self is authentic or not, like, you'll show the side that's going to get you some applause, but everything else, you're going to keep close to the best. And so he's, he's right about that. But as Brent pointed out, you know, it is the king's English. Vainglory.
- [06:14]
B
Long live the king, though. I mean, no ill will towards King Charles.
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C
But why doesn't anybody use that word? Brent, why you don't say, like, I'm really struggling with vainglory today. Like, that's not in your accountability groups or whatever.
- [06:28]
B
No. And in fact. Yeah, so when I look at it in my dictionary, it doesn't actually say that it's archaic.
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A
So.
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B
So it has that going for it, but it does, it does classify it as literary. So I suppose if you're a big time reader of literature, then you might run across it more often. But yeah, it's not common English.
- [06:46]
C
Okay. Yeah, I mean, so I think that's very true. It's not conversational, but maybe it needs to make, make its way back into the vernacular because. Okay, so let's just talk about what this is. Vainglory. And with all of these vices, again, remember that we've been talking about how it's a disordered desire. It's something that in and of itself is not. There's a good root, it's not necessarily bad, but it has become out of whack. And so what Vainglory is, is the inordinate desire to impress the idea of myself on the hearts and minds of others. Vainglory is being so hungry for acclaim, for people recognizing you and saying your name, that you will take that even if it's for something totally hollow, right? Totally empty. Even if you don't even deserve it, you will take that credit for yourself. And it's distinct. It's got cousins. Okay, we're going to talk about cousins. So let's think about a little family. Or maybe they're. They could be brothers or sisters. And you've got vainglory, and then you've got pride, and you've also got ambition. And in older school thought, classical thought, they distinguished these things and I think the distinctions are important. So we got pride, right? And that's kind of our word that we use now. Like, that's sort of our catch all word. Which. What would you guys generally say? I'm not. This is not a test. Just off the top of the dome, what do you think of when you think of pride?
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A
I think of things like puffing up an invalid centering of self, which I love this conversation because I would have immediately did what Brent did. Vainglory as pride, they're the same thing. And yet already in our conversation, I'm going, oh, there are some nuances here where this is not the same thing. And vainglory communicates something, even just in breaking down the etymology in my. Just on a very simplistic level, I'm going, oh, there's some things here that aren't necessarily contained in the concept of pride.
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C
Okay, Brent, you got anything to add to that?
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B
Yeah, I mean, I definitely think about it in a vice sort of sense where it is this self importance and maybe uncalled for. But I also think of it in the like, sense of I've completed this task and I've done a good job and I'm happy. Like I, I would stand by my work like Leanne's about to do with her with her dissertation. Like, she has put all the effort into it and she's standing by it in the sense of, of being proud of what she's done, saying like, yeah, what I have done is good. So it kind of has this two sidedness to the coin, I think.
- [09:24]
C
Yeah, let's stick a pin in that. Because that's actually one of the trickiest things about the vice of either whether you're talking about pride or ambition or vainglory is that they're all kind of, they play or they prey on things that are actually inherently good about a self. But we're going to come back to that. So, Marty, I think you were getting the nail on the head when you were talking about. You used the phrase centering of self. What pride is is just the desire to be ultimate or to be central, to be superior. And so preeminence itself is the thing, whereas ambition is really about the desire to achieve something at the highest level, to achieve the most or to achieve the best. And so in pride, if preeminence is the thing, then in ambition, excellence is the thing. Like the excellence of the craft, of the product, of the performance. In vainglory, it's like the most pale, thinnest, weakest version of any of these, where what it is is the desire to be praised, to be recognized. It's what comes at the end of having maybe you've done an excellent thing. And it's when the crowd is like, cheering your name, or people are like, oh, hey, I know you. Or you look at your post and you're seeing the number of likes, like, going up, you know? And so in pride, preeminence is the thing. In ambition, excellence is the thing. And in vainglory, just image. Image is the thing. Pure image. Being seen, being recognized. Does that distinction make sense?
- [11:06]
A
Yeah. And I think I could say, if I were to walk it backwards, I would say vainglory doesn't need excellence, and it simply doesn't care about preeminence. It only wants the image.
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C
Correct.
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A
You don't even have to be the best, and you don't even have to be the center if you can get what you want, which is to be seen, imaged.
- [11:24]
C
Correct. And we talk about pride. Many different thinkers and traditions talk about pride as being the kind of. It's the head vice. It's the vice underneath all the vices. When we center self, when we make just, you know, our own being the ultimate superior thing, then from there, all other things start to come about and go awry. And that is important. But that is not the same as vainglory. For my friends who like to think cinematically, as I've been going through these vices, realized like the film trade, the film industry in its long history has actually, like, reaped much from the fields of vices. There are lots of great movies that are made about all the different vices and how they play out. And if anybody. And if you're not, this is only going to take 20 seconds. So if you're, like, not a movie person, you can come back in 20 seconds. But when I think about pride, I think about you Guys, seen There Will Be Blood, where Daniel Day Lewis, he plays Daniel Plainview, and he is just a man who only cares about blood being ultimate. And he will do whatever it takes, no matter how ruthless, no matter how backstabbing. And he doesn't care. I mean, he lives his whole life alone. At the end, doesn't matter that he's got people around him or not. He just wants to be the best. Then ambition. Have you guys seen the movie Whiplash?
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B
I have.
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C
Not about the drummer.
- [12:46]
B
Once again, on my list, thanks to you, but.
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C
And this kid, he goes to a prestigious school of music, and he dedicates everything to just becoming the best drummer that there is. He wants to give the best performance. And for him, it's not about even necessarily his own self. And it's not about the applause. It is about the ambition to just achieve, in this case, music at its highest possible level. And then Vainglory is the movie I already referenced, which is the king of comedy, where all this person cares about and they'll take it by dishonest means. But everybody cheering their name, chanting. Make sense?
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A
Yep, I'm following you.
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B
Okay, that was more than 20 seconds, but maybe I have an alternate example.
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C
Okay. Yeah, let's do it.
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B
Michael Phelps.
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C
Okay.
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B
Most decorated Olympian of all time. If his driving force is ambition, he has achieved the most. He has the most medals of anybody ever in the Olympics done. If his driving force is pride, at some point he will no longer be the ultimate Olympian, and that will destroy him. Right. Like, those are. I don't know anything about Michael Phelps personally. I have no idea what drives him. But if we look at it in those two ways, like one of those things, it's like, okay, well, he has achieved it and it's done. Versus pride, where it's like once he falls down the ladder a step because he's getting a little too old or whatever, then it. It destroys him. Does that ring true?
- [14:18]
C
Yeah, I think that tracks. I mean, really what we're talking about is, like, motivations. But they get their cousins, their brothers, and they're easily, sometimes confused linguistically, because what they have in common is in some way, the prominence of your own self. And what's tricky about this. Let's move on just a little bit, is that, as I said before, these things kind of build. They need actually, inherently. Well, for the most part, they need good things in order to, like, play off of those. So I think, you know, that they have as many Manifestations as there are human excellences, right. It can be about strength and athleticism, like Michael Phelps. It can be about beauty. It can be about intelligence. It can be about success in whatever your particular field is. It doesn't just have to be big famous things either. I don't want us to start slipping into a rut where we're like, oh, yeah, so the famous people are the ones who deal with pride. Like, this could be literally about your own garden and, like, does it, you know, whether you have no weeds in your garden or how clean you keep your car or anything like that. Right. And those are all fine things. Those are perfectly good things. But when what happens is that you. You start to, like, just do it for the recognition you get, you are in vice territory. There's this great quote from John Chrysostom who said, while other vices find their abode even in the servants of the devil, vainglory finds a place even in the servants of Christ. So, I mean, we talk about, like, being made in the image of God, right? And we talk about human flourishing. We talk about partnering with God, which I think calls us to do excellent things and to be excellent. Right. But as soon as, like, you get that little taste of, like, somebody recognizing your excellence, then it can start to, like, that hunger starts to creep in. Right. And. And so exactly when you are doing well and maybe even living faithfully as you're supposed to, then it starts to creep in and there's like a further double bind. That is maybe you recognize you're somebody who struggles with vainglory or pride or ambition, and you really want to, like, combat that and there can even be preyed upon that, like, oh, I'm doing so good at getting over my vice of vain glory. And people are telling me I'm doing. You know what I mean?
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B
Yeah.
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C
And so it's tricky because it. This is like a vice that's kind of rooted or dependent upon goodness, but not entirely. Not entirely. And I want to say that too, because. So it can be about desiring, like, excessive recognition for things that are good, but also vainglory can look like seeking recognition for things that are empty. So like you talked about the etymology, Marty, the word glory, you know, praise, honor, acclaim, weight. But vainglory, the word vain, that's the Latin word that just means empty. And so literally, the word means to gain praise for things that are not worthy of praise for things that are hollow. And so it can be either one of those. Maybe you're a person who's doing the Right thing, and you just want the praise for that. Or maybe you're a person who's doing something that is empty and hollow and you want the praise for that. But either way, the vice can set in. Ultimately, what matters, either side of that, that you fall on is that the recognition becomes the end in and of itself. As I was thinking about this, I was reminded of a story that I read. This is kind of an excellent counter to the vice of vainglory. There was a story about a monk who wove baskets. Have you guys heard this story before?
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A
I think maybe, yeah.
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C
He would spend all year alone, you know, in his monastery out in the desert. And his trade, his job was to weave baskets. And he would weave them throughout the year and stockpile them, and then at the end of the year, he would burn them all, and then he would start over. And it was as a way to say, this is not about what I gain from this. This is not about the recognition that I get from this or about people noticing how good I am at weaving baskets. It is about doing the thing itself. So I'm not. This is a. This is a tale I'm not telling everybody. Like, save all your work for a year and then throw it in the trash. But it is maybe worth thinking about if you are somebody who struggles with this. Maybe whatever it is that you are doing, it might be worth doing it in some cases in a way that people don't see or that you don't draw attention to. You know, whatever. Whatever that thing is.
- [19:12]
B
I'm deleting all of the Bama upsets from this year after.
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A
After Christmas, I've been, like, processing, like, I've been so quiet over here because, like, all this stuff is, like, really making me think about all kinds of things. When you were saying that, I thought of the story of. I think you've told it on the podcast of Derek, his father in law, like, taking all of his father in law's sermons and putting them in the fire, burning them, and just how, like, it just feels. So every time I hear the story, I'm like, oh, it feels so wrong. Not because it is, but because it, like, grabs at something. But this is like tapping into some of that same space.
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C
Yeah. I mean, I felt so uncomfortable when he did that.
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A
Yeah.
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C
And that was an indicator of. I mean, in me, honestly, that I. There is a kind of vainglory that I am after in people, like, knowing that I'm good with words. And these sermon manuscripts are representative of that, you know, and so if those go away. Then it's almost like, well, what will people have to praise about me? And then. Then what will I be?
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B
Yeah.
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A
Even like, as I've processed that story in months and years since I've heard it, like, I think this actually helps give me language for some of it, because it's not my sermons, and they weren't his sermons. It was somebody else's work. And yet behind it all is this sense of like, of the things that human beings have created. Not that that's wrong or bad. And you're going to. Sure, we'll circle back around to this by the time we're done. The accomplishment that we rightfully give ourselves to, but a reminder of where ultimate. When I think of vainglory, even if it's not given to foolish things that have no glory, even if it's given to really good, substantive things, ultimately the glory is not mine. And vainglory tries to make it mine. Even when it's good, substantive stuff. Vainglory is. It's God's glory not to just do the spiritual bypassing Jesus juke, but it really is the glory of the Creator that I'm trying to usurp and make my own. Whether it was my work or even in this case, somebody else's. It's getting things out of whack of who truly deserves praise, honor and glory.
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C
Yeah, it's kind of, I think, well known that I think it was. It was Bach, who at the end of all of his pieces would write Solidio Gloria.
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A
Yep.
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C
Sdg which might seem kind of corny, and yet, like, that is probably pretty judgmental on my part. And in fact, what he is saying is like, yes, of course, this piece of music is a great work of. It's a labor of, like, there's effort. Right. And there's so much energy and love that goes into it.
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A
Yes.
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C
But at the end of the day, this is not about me. This glory does not belong to me. Which, you know, of course, like, there's the. There's the passage in Deuteronomy where the people are being warned, be careful when you settle down and things go well for you, because you're going to be tempted to say that it's by my own hand that I have gained this for myself. But don't forget that it is God who gives you the ability in the first place, you know, and so maybe a helpful exercise here when it comes to, like, who deserves the glory really is get in your mental time machine, because we can time travel just in our imagination and go backwards to your own birthday, like, the actual day you were born, and then go back one year and ask yourself, where were you and how did you get here? And who gave you your body and who gave you. You know? And it's like, well, of course I didn't make any of that for myself.
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B
Okay.
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A
The thing that this series has done for me is it's given me a new. It's given. It's. Let me have a taste. If I don't get some Thomas Aquinas, I might just burst.
- [22:43]
C
I mean, I never imagined that I would say that or feel that myself, but I think you're actually right, because, again, like, the dude, you can have whatever issues you have with particular theologies and whatever, or even just the whole endeavor to go about it like he did. And yet you cannot fault him for. I mean, he thought so extensively about human nature, and it's like he was never satisfied that he was really at the bottom of the well just yet. And so, you know, we can talk about vainglory, but as with all these vices, Aquinas was like, and here's what comes from that. So let's just do a quick survey of. And I think this is helpful, because if vainglory sounds abstract, what Aquinas does when he says, here are some of the. The. He called them, like, their foot soldiers, right? So the vices, the capital vices were like, captains. And it helps recognize. Oh, this. This actually does play out in my life like this. So, like, for example, and I'm probably the only person here who struggles with this one, but boastfulness was a thing that. This is, like, a destructive thing that comes out of this habit of vainglory where we exaggerate just a little bit about our own, you know, feats and successes. Like, you know, maybe the podcast has, like, maybe it's not 20,000, maybe it's 50,000 people. And I'll just go with the bigger number, you know, or, you know, maybe it's the big fish story, right? Where it's like, the fish was 6 inches long, but you're like, it was like this big, you know, and so just the willingness to exaggerate or importantly, to let somebody else exaggerate and to just let that go and be like, yeah, that sounds better if I had that many followers or if I got, you know, if they applauded for this long or, you know, if my batting average was this, then that sounds better than what it actually was. And so it's a kind of lie, actually, that comes out of vainglory I.
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A
Really appreciate you acknowledging that you're the only one in this group that struggles with that. So good job.
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C
Yeah, I'm really good at always acknowledging, in all cases, my boastfulness. Another one is hypocrisy, which we're going to return to when we get to our text conversation here. Because Jesus definitely talked about this one. Yes, but hypocrisy? Not again. We talked about this on the podcast before. Not doing one, seeing one thing and saying another, or saying one thing and doing another, but in a sense of putting on a mask. And the mask that I put on is virtue, where I pretend to be or I take on the appearance of being better than I really am. And I'm willing to accept credit for being. And it's a tricky line, right? Because I'm not saying that we should just go around all day always telling people like, no, no, really, I'm not that, like, always trying to be self deprecating. But for those who struggle as UPA Kritas, like, you know what I'm talking about, this one I thought was interesting. He names it eccentricity or a love of novelties. And this is kind of like, you got to get the latest and greatest so that you can kind of be the center of attention, you know, like, oh, yeah, check out my new model of whatever. Or it's doing something that is even eccentric or flashy or just like, really kind of. What's the word I'm looking for? Like, over the top, right? Or as the kids would say, extra in order to get attention to yourself. Not because you're actually that way or because you really care about those things, but whatever it takes to get people's attention on you, you will do those kind of eccentric, novel things.
- [26:24]
A
This could be the person that just always has to not just be contrarian, but always has to be different, always has to be unique. Can never like the thing that everybody else likes because what they're trying to do is stand out in the crowd for the sake of being seen.
- [26:38]
C
Totally. In middle school, I was really into punk music. Oh, non conformity. That was the word.
- [26:43]
A
There you go.
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C
We're like, dude, I'm so, like, non conformist. And really it was just a kind of vainglory to like, I want to stand out and be different.
- [26:49]
B
Yeah, Reid, I'm trying so hard here. I'm like, yeah, let's make that distinction between vainglory and ambition. Because it's like, well, whatever. Vain glory. But I mean, sure, of course I have ambition of being the best yes, obviously. But that's. That's different than vainglory. But the foot soldiers, this is dangerous territory for me.
- [27:08]
C
You starting to feel the sting a little bit. So. And then these next three, the other three that are on the list, I kind of group these together, and so they're called contention, obstinacy, and discord. And basically what these have in common is that there is a kind of abrasiveness that comes from not wanting your own image of being right or good to be tarnished. So, like, contention is like, you will just argue excessively, because for you, being seen as being right has become, like, the most important thing.
- [27:42]
B
Oh, go on.
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C
Okay. Do you want to argue about that?
- [27:51]
B
No, I do not.
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C
Obstinacy related is just the refusal to back down. Right. Or to admit wrong. So in contention, like, you could be right, an obstinacy, maybe you're wrong and you're unwilling to admit that or back down, because, again, like, there is that perception of my own self. That's the thing. I need that to remain pristine or correct or right. And so I'm not going to back down from that. That's obstinacy. And then discord is like, stirring up trouble. Like, you are the one going out intentionally stirring up trouble in a way that is trying to be admired. And, you know, maybe I'm just thinking of, like, just what middle school and high school were like, you know, I'm not trying to, like, talk down to middle school and high schoolers, but it is maybe more common there. You know what I'm talking about, where it's like, you're going around, you're getting in people's faces because there is a kind of like, oh, that guy's, like, so, like, tough or so cool, you know? And again, it's just about the way that people perceive you, and you're willing to do destructive or discordant things in order to get that. Okay, so those are the foot soldiers. Respond.
- [29:03]
B
Rot.
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A
Row. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If those are evidence that the. The captain is laying siege to the fortress, there's. Well, yeah, and I know we. I know the cultural conversation is what you have coming up later in. In our episode here, but man, boy. Oh, this is just all over. I mean, social media is just made. Well, I'm just getting ahead of myself at this point because that's.
- [29:28]
C
Yeah, well, let me ask this before we get to that, because I do want to. Again, our. One of our goals throughout this series is to actually, like, not be judgmental toward ourselves or toward other people who struggle with these things. But we want to have a kind of compassion and kindness.
- [29:42]
A
Right.
- [29:43]
C
And so I want to take a second before we get to that cultural conversation and just ask, like, what is the good thing that we are actually after? So if a vice is taking a good desire and just making it out of whack and twisting it, what is it that we really want when vainglory is something that's got its claws into us? Thoughts on that?
- [30:02]
A
Well, there's something about just being valued, being seen. Like we're talking about being seen for the purpose of glory, but being seen as a human being in relationship, being known, being in relationship with others, where people, you have a place. Because on one hand, if we don't have this conversation, this question, Reid, we listen to these vices and especially this vice, and we're just like, oh, well, then I guess I'm just a dirt clawed. I'm just a nobody. The proper response is, no, no, no, no, no, no, you are somebody. But it keeps trying to validate that. But the fact that you are somebody is the good part of this. It's a part of me being like my identity, my minus is validated, and it is and it should be. And that's the good part that's buried in here.
- [30:51]
C
Yeah, I think you're right. I think that, you know, in the church circles that I grew up in, it was like, well, pride is the worst thing that you could be or that could happen to you. And there was even like part of the virtue of certain theologies that would say, like, no, you're just a dirt clod. Before the Lord was, well, we can't think that, that being human is inherently a good thing because then we will become proud and then we will like, rebel against God or we will think that we are God. But remember, I mean, just going back to like creation story, even in, in Genesis, the first thing that happens is that the people are declared to be very good.
- [31:30]
A
Yeah.
- [31:31]
C
And then that is not in dispute. And part of the. The deception of the serpent, like with the woman is, well, yeah, God knows that you're going to be like God, but it's like, well, the tragedy, the irony is, I mean, a chapter before that's already what they were said to be.
- [31:47]
A
Yeah, they already were.
- [31:48]
C
But the problem is not, you know, it's not being the image of God, which is we, we can. There's no way that you can say that that's not inherently beautiful and wonderful and good. And that includes you and me and anybody Listening to this. Yeah, that's not the problem. The problem then is, is like, the lengths we go to to try to. And in vain glory. It's like that has to be recognized all the time in me, and it becomes about me and not even the image of God that I am bearing. And that's where things go, Right? But, yes, absolutely. Like, I want to affirm with you the desire to be loved and desire to be known. The desire to let our goodness be seen is not a bad thing. That is actually inherently a good thing, but just has to be properly ordered. All right, you mentioned the culture conversation. You started to say the word social media. You said it. I didn't say that. Just when I was here thinking, like, oh, well, we don't struggle with this anywhere in our culture, right? This with vainglory. This is like, so. I mean, we don't even use the word anymore, so we must not struggle with it anymore. But maybe you are seeing it somewhere, Marty. Like, where do we see. Where do we see this in the world that we live in?
- [32:54]
A
Oh, man. And I don't want to just say it's only social media. It's whatever the soil is. I would love to have a sociologist or whoever it is that would be the expert in this, because I'm not it. But I think we see life radically different than our predecessors or people even a century ago, or definitely four or 500, 800 years ago, Thomas Aquinas. Like, we see our lives as an Instagram reel. Like, we subconsciously see all. We envision ourselves being seen. Maybe that's just me, but I feel like social media just feeds on this. And that's not all. Horrible pit of hell. Evil. I just. Man, this has not gotten easier. This has definitely become the water we swim in, for sure.
- [33:43]
C
I mean, it's interesting, right? How that little heart and the number next to it.
- [33:48]
A
Yep.
- [33:48]
C
It's like we have found a way to quantify something that used to be more qualitative, I guess. And it's so weird, but it happens to any of us who have been on social media. You post and then you check, how many likes am I at? You put it away for three seconds, you pull it back out, how many likes am I at now? You put it down again for five minutes, come back, like, check mentions, check shares, check likes, and whatever that thing is. And that feeling that we get where we want to see that number climb higher, that is vainglory. We have a name for that, and it's vainglory. And I mean, at the End of the day, that is ultimately like a hollow. That is a hollow thing. In our invocation, every service at ccf, part of it is praying to be delivered from the hollow piece of our accomplishments. And I'm talking about trivial accomplishments, like how many people hit that like, button, you know, but it's such an accessible way for us now. That didn't used to be the case. Like, it used to be that there was a very small subset of humanity that had to worry about ratings, you know, if you were on TV or in a movie or something. And now it's literally everybody. Like, everybody's watching that meter, whether it's going up or not. And the just what that has done to it's become monetizable. Like, the more likes it can get. That's worth money.
- [35:16]
A
Yeah.
- [35:16]
C
And it is the epitome of vainglory. Actually, Brent, I'm deciding we have to bring the word back. I. Okay. My sons are in high school. My oldest son is in high school. He's a 15 year old boy. I love him dearly and he is a brilliant person, but he also is susceptible to things on YouTube that 15 year old boys like. And he was watching this video, you guys, it made me so mad. It was some guy whose whole bit is he just walks. I sound like such an old man right now. I'm so sorry, but I have to say this. This guy just walks into places and yells. Like, yells out loud and like in a weird, socially disruptive way. And this guy has like 3 million subscribers on YouTube. And I was like, what does this guy do? And they're like, this is it. Like, this is all he does. Like, yeah. I was like, if I ever hear about you going out into public and doing this, I will end you. Because it is the. It is. You guys. They're like, he's doing pranks. I was like, this isn't even a prank. This does not rise to the level of prank.
- [36:15]
B
Yeah. There's no sophistication at all.
- [36:17]
C
It is the epitome of hollow. It is just a guy yelling in a public place. Not even yelling words. He's just going, you know. And people are like, shocked by that, of course, because that's not normal behavior. It is the epitome of vanity, emptiness, hollowness, meaninglessness. And yet it gains glory of. 3 million people subscribe to this. And this guy probably has a lot of money because of his YouTube subscriptions and all of that. And I just can't take it anymore. So that's. That's end of Rant. We. It is everywhere. The. It is like, vainglory is the ethos of celebrity, and we live in, like, a ubiquitous celebrity culture. Like, everybody's got a chance to be celebrity now because you can, like, post it. And it just. It is. It is empty. It's empty. It's empty.
- [37:06]
B
So I feel like I've given up on vainglory because I am not willing to do things like that. And, you know, I'll post something, and it's like, oh, man, this is, like this beautiful scene, you know, this nice tree or flower, whatever. It is like, something I'm interested in. And I just. I feel like going back to the conversation. Like, what is the real motivation behind this? I just want to have, like, a shared experience with somebody. I want somebody else to recognize and appreciate that thing with me so that we can have the shared experience. I don't really care about the numbers, but I kind of do, you know, in the back of my mind. But then it's like, I post anything about my wife, and it gets four times as many likes as anything else I do, and I'm like, okay, I give up. Like, there's no point.
- [37:47]
C
There's no point.
- [37:48]
B
Yeah, she is cool. It's just like, why. Why is. I don't know. The value system is so strange. Like, why. Why do people react in a certain way to certain types of things and not to others? When really there is inherent value and beauty in a lot of the things, but then some of them are just elevated above others. You can make an argument for it. It's like, well, humanity should have more value than the rest of creation. Sure. But I don't know. It feels like there's something off about it. That's why I don't struggle with vainglory. I'm fine on this one. I can have one that I don't struggle with. Right? Please.
- [38:27]
A
I think you've always given yourself up. You've already told us you've been oohing and on a little bit too much during this episode. Sorry, Brent.
- [38:34]
C
I mean, I'll just say it again. When we started this series, I was like, I probably know what my vice is, and everybody's got their pet one, right? No, the more you dig into the layers, and that's why I think this is valuable. The more you recognize. And again, we're not trying to shame anything, but it's just, is this the best that is being called out of us? Like, as. As people who bear the image of God? And is there better that God wants from Us than vainglory. I think there is, because here's the. I want to talk for a second about the actual problem here because you might look at it and be like, well, what's really the problem anyway with like, you know, feeling good about getting some likes and what's the problem with like wanting an audience? And I'm interested to hear your guys thoughts on this. But the first thing that I want to say is the problem is that recognition becomes value. Where we don't believe in the value inherently that we possess or that our work possesses even, and we only feel like it is valuable or we come when vainglory is really present. We only come to think that it is valuable if and when it is recognized. And otherwise it's like, well, that was a waste of time, you know, or that was quote unquote useless because it didn't get me like, you know, an audience. And so it causes us to devalue our own selves and like the inherent goodness of our work. Even if, I mean, Brent, you could take a photograph, you know, and it can be like an immensely beautiful photograph that is like part of your heart and soul. And that is good whether anybody sees it or not, or whether a million people see it or the one person sees it. And that is something that you can find satisfaction in. And yet if vainglory is there, it's like, nope, doesn't matter. Because people didn't like it enough, you know, people didn't applaud you enough for it. But yeah, I'm curious if you guys have other thoughts on like, what is the. What's the problem? Like, how does vainglory diminish us as, as people, as image bearers? Any thoughts?
- [40:36]
A
I don't know why the word waste comes to mind. I'm in the middle of graduate ethics degree right now and there is a line of reasoning that simply, you know, if it's not the line that's teaching me or that I'm learning from, but there is a line of re. Ethical reasoning out there that if it doesn't harm anybody, well, you're not causing direct harm to you or somebody else. So I mean, but there's a sense of like. Like ethics shouldn't be defined by what it's not, it should be defined by what it is. And there's like this inherent, like creation's supposed to flourish. And I don't mean flourish in terms of productivity, although that's true. I mean flourish in terms of finding its goodness, finding its essence. And vainglory is the opposite of that Vainglory is hollow. Vainglory is a cheap knockoff. Vainglory is. It's not the real thing, it's fake. It's a counterfeit. And therefore, it's not that it's unethical because it's directly harmful. It's that it's harmful because it takes up valuable space. I don't know if that's right or not, but you get what I'm saying. There's goodness unrealized. It's taken up the space of what should be good and holy and sacred and beautiful. We're even talking about non productive things like just beauty, goodness. And vainglory is a counterfeit of those things.
- [41:55]
C
David Foster Wallace is a writer who I have referenced at times before, and he did a speech at a commencement ceremony at a university, and it's called this is Water. You can find it online. It's also published as a small kind of book. But he has this interesting observation, and that is think about the things that Vainglory is based off of. Typical things like beauty or intelligence or strength. And he observes that the more you worship these things, or the more you and for our purposes come to let these things be a source of your own being worshiped, the less secure you are in those actual things. So he says, like, the more you worship intelligence, the more a fraud you come to feel. The more you feel like somebody's going to recognize that I don't actually. I'm not as smart as I think I am. Right. Or like the more you worship beauty, the more and more you always feel like you have to do to maintain a certain standard of attraction. Or the more you worship strength, the more weak you will always feel. Always wondering, like, who is stronger around you. And so when we find our sense of value in the hollow piece of these accomplishments, it diminishes us even in our. It's directly inverse, I guess. Like the. The damage that is done is like directly inverse to the amount of significance that we give it. Does that make sense?
- [43:28]
A
Yeah. I was letting Brent run with this one, this. This episode, but dang, that one. That one zings a little. Yeah, totally.
- [43:35]
C
I was thinking about the story of Abraham and the Midrash, about breaking all the little idols.
- [43:40]
A
Yeah, yeah, yep.
- [43:41]
C
And his father, like, getting so upset, but he's like, they're not real gods. And he's like, well, if they're not real, then why are you. Why do you care so much? Basically is like the sentiment of it, you know?
- [43:50]
A
Yeah. Y.
- [43:50]
C
And I think, I wonder, like, if any of these things are these little trinkets in our. In our sort of curio cabinet of vainglory.
- [43:57]
A
Yeah.
- [43:58]
C
And we were to take them and smash them, like, how much would it mean to us and how devastated would we be if I can no longer be recognized for how smart I am or for how pretty I am, or for how athletic I am or for how successful or rich or how well manicured my lawn is, like, then what am I? I think it's a wake up call for us for sure. And then I think the. The last thing I would say, how it diminishes us. This is a quote from Rebecca DeYoung, who we've quoted many times through this series. She says the art of impressing others and gaining applause involves carefully hiding ourselves just as much as it involves showing ourselves off.
- [44:35]
A
Yeah.
- [44:36]
C
Right. And this is back to kind of the Beechner thing, right. Where it's like, there is only a part of me that I am willing to show, and that's the part that gets me applause. And then this other part. This is why I would never dance at parties or. Or like wedding receptions, because it was like, I'm gonna show this part of me that I can't control people's perception of.
- [44:56]
A
Yep.
- [44:56]
C
And it was totally vain, glorious of me to be that way, where it's like the celebration, the. The moment, the music is all calling like, jump in the party and dance, man. And I'm just like, oh. But then I've got to keep this part of me back, this part that calls out for joy. But it's like, keep it back because then you'll look dumb and only let people see the things that you think are going to make you praiseworthy.
- [45:17]
A
That puts the finger on something I've been trying to articulate throughout this conversation of like, why does it feel like some of the things I don't do are about vainglory? And that's it. It's because if I did that, I would look a fool. And that is why I don't do them. And that's vainglory.
- [45:37]
C
Yeah. And I mean, I thousand percent relate. And then I'm like, well, I'm the one who's suffering because.
- [45:42]
A
Yep.
- [45:43]
C
I'm not a part of the party. I'm not having fun. You know what I mean?
- [45:45]
A
Yeah.
- [45:46]
C
If I could get over my sense of self or my sense of how I'm being perceived, man, this could be a great time.
- [45:51]
A
Yep.
- [45:52]
C
All right, let's do some text. Brent, if you would indulge us from the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus actually confronts Vainglory head on. Let's hear it. This is chapter 6, verses 1 through 8.
- [46:07]
B
Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them.
- [46:11]
C
Boom, there it is. Sorry, I just. That's it.
- [46:14]
B
Yeah.
- [46:14]
C
Beware. But why? In order to be seen. Okay. Sorry, I just. I'm like, wow, we're really talking about. We're talking about this.
- [46:21]
A
Go ahead.
- [46:22]
B
For then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others.
- [46:34]
C
There it is again.
- [46:35]
B
Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret will reward you. And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father, who sees in secret will reward you. And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases. Empty as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
- [47:25]
C
Do we even need to say anything else on this one? Actually, Marty, can you illuminate this word hypocrites for us a little bit, as you've done before?
- [47:32]
A
Yeah. So the word was generally used. I don't even. Generally, the word was used for actor. Like, they're used to a theater. They have these theaters in the ancient world, the stage with seats, with a show, and the people that are on the stage doing the acting. That word for actor is upokrita. So that's this word of, like, you're doing this to be seen. And when they're doing it as a performer in their craft, that's exactly what they ought to do. Jesus's point seems to be we do our spiritual lives that way. We do it to be seen. Which I love hearing that passage with all of this conversation. We've had up to this, because I used to always focus on the mechanics, like, oh, don't let your right hand know what your left hand is doing. And you're Missing the spirit of the text and all of the. Because you're missing the vainglory piece that has set this up to be. Just do this because it's real. Do this so that nobody sees it. Do it so that you yourself don't even see it. Do it so your right hand doesn't even know what your left hand is doing, because it's real and it's authentic and it's coming from the right place. But don't do it as performance art, as actor.
- [48:38]
C
There is a place where applause is appropriate, and that's at the theater, on the stage. But we can make anything into a kind of theater, right, where we want people to applaud us because again, look at how weedless my garden is, you know, or whatever. The thing is, I'm curious, in light of this whole conversation, thinking about this theme that runs through Jesus teaching here about rewards. If you practice in order to be seen. If you do this in a vainglory way, you'll have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. And also if you do, you will have received. I tell you, you've received your reward in full even. Right? What do you think Jesus is getting at here in terms of, like, the reward from the Father, your own reward? What's the thing that we are missing out on when we live in a. In a vainglory way? And what's the thing, maybe, that we actually stand to gain if we were able to resist that? You guys got thoughts on that in light of this conversation?
- [49:39]
A
Well, if vainglory is the hollow, the trinket version of, then what GS says makes complete sense when you're doing it for vainglory. It is hollow. It is completely empty. I think about the aurora bush we talked about in session one. There's nothing in it. There's just nothing there. But if it's real, if it's not being done for vain glory, but being done because of who God is and who God is in me and who I am in God. And I'm not doing it at all for what's seen or the performance of it, but because of what truly is true within me and the relationship I dwell within. And I have. On the flip side, the one is hollow and empty. The other one is deeply rich and in the present. And that's not to take away from eternal components. But I think we always rush ahead to some eternal reward. I'm reading a lot of NT Wright right now, who is, by the way, I just love being reminded by how brilliant that guy is.
- [50:40]
C
Wow.
- [50:40]
A
But he keeps making the point about the eschatological. And I don't mean end times, apocalyptic, end of the world. I mean the coming of the kingdom, which is now like Jesus keeps trying to insist there are rewards and there are realities and there is a kingdom that is. Often feels invisible but an immaterial, but it is very real and it is very material and it is within you and it is in your midst. There are rewards to be had, there is transformation to taste. There is goodness to tap into the creation, Genesis story that you were talking about earlier, you can completely miss it because you're doing it for vainglory and you won't tap into any of that. But if you do it for the right reasons, deep, deep goodness. There, that is a reward.
- [51:27]
C
Yeah, I think about, man, you're just flashing me back to this memory I haven't thought about in a while. About 10 years ago, I spent two years making a kayak. And Marty, you've ridden in that kayak before. I have, and I remember. So I spent two years on and off working on it at my. I had like a mentor, Chad, shout out Chad McNeely, who walked me through and taught me the whole process over these two years. And I was building it out at his shop and many days he was there helping me, guiding me, you know, correcting me. But it just so happened that the final day of this two year process when I was putting the, literally the last finishing touch on this and to where it just had to dry, and then I was taking it out of the shop and taking it to the lake, I was alone, Chad was gone. And I finished the last stroke. And before I walked out, like, I turned off the lights, there was a window in the shop and it was just kind of this quiet space, naturally lit a little bit dim. And I stood there and I just looked at this thing for a while. And honestly, that moment was the deepest satisfaction I ever felt about it. And one of the deepest moments of satisfaction I've had about anything. And, you know, then you take it out and people are like, oh my gosh, you made this. Like, that's so awesome. And they want to ask you all about it and they want to compliment, like, how good it looks. But what I can say is that all of that is nothing compared to that deep. And I think that is like the father who is rewarding you in secret. There is something inherent, internal, private, shared only between you and God in that moment. Yeah, that I was. I thankfully, by the grace of God, had the wherewithal to kind of tap into in that moment. And I wasn't thinking at all about, like, I wonder if I took a picture of this and put it on Instagram. I'm gonna get likes or whatever, you know. But when we do, when we do it in a vainglory way, we can miss that moment, right? We can completely rob ourselves. And Jesus says, you got your reward, you know, your likes, you've got it. But is that really better than doing it in a way that is genuine? And ultimately, I mean, I think what I felt most was not just satisfaction, but a sense of gratitude, right? A sense of gratitude to God and for so many things about that whole process. That's just what I want to encourage people toward is like, if you're doing it because, man, who's going to like it? Who's going to recognize you? I think you're only robbing yourself of something that. That is actually so, so much better. All right, let's move on to the last part of our conversation here where, like, what is it that God is aiming for instead? And I think part we just tapped into part of that, right? God is after people who are doing things in a genuine way, doing the goodness for its own sake. And because that's who God's called us to be. And he's after even sharing that with us and saying, you know, your father rewards you. Well done, good job. When I think about bearing the image of God, it is a thing that is, like, actually glorious. You know, the CS Lewis, he writes about this in the Weight of Glory, and he talks about it's like a. What did he say? It's a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses. Do you know this line where, like, anybody you meet could like, eventually one day when they're fully basically realized as the image of God that they're created to be, that could be something that you would be tempted to worship, you know, and so, like, there is so much glory in what God has set us to be and do. But I want to think for a second about the difference between. If we think about light shining, think about the difference between something that refracts light and something that absorbs light. You know, think about. A black hole is like the ultimate definition of something that absorbs light. It sucks it all in and nothing ever comes out. And what is it? It's a big black hole, which I know in interstellar it looked really, really cool. But for our purposes here, contrast that. And I think that's the vainglory thing that's like all the light is shining on me, and I'm going to take it for myself and it's going to come in and it's never then going to go anywhere else out. And it's just going to stay here right with me. And what does that do? It just creates a vacuum that, like, makes nothing out of everything. On the other hand, think about light that refracts. Think about a precious stone, like a diamond even. And when you shine light through it and you look at it as you turn it, what do you see? You see the whole spectrum, Right. All the colors, like, coming out of it as they pass through. And I think that is representative of the way in which we are called to be excellent and called to do good. Not so the light stays with us, but solely Gloria. Right. So that it's given back to God for the sake of the world around us. And that is something that is, like, magical and captivating, you know, or one of my favorite movies, Raiders of the Lost Ark, when he's got the staff and he puts it in that room and it shines through that red crystal, and it's like, you know, that's what we are called to be. Something that refracts and magnifies rather than absorbs for our own, rather than our own sake. Another way of saying it, we use the word steward like we're called to be stewards of basically borrowed goods. God has given us the various faculties that he's given us, and we're meant to, like, for that to be seen. I mean, there's another place where Jesus says, how does it go, Marty, when you. When you do good?
- [57:07]
A
I think, like, when I do this teaching, I always juxtapose against the let your good deeds shine before men so that they would see them. Like, there's a. There's another scene that's happening there.
- [57:17]
C
And so you've been given this good thing. Let it be seen.
- [57:20]
A
I should end it. But, like, so that they may glorify your Father in heaven, it's not vain glory, it's the glory to God. Absolutely.
- [57:26]
C
There you go. But it's not like the. I think the point is, like, we are putting on display something we've been giving. We're not the owners of it, you know?
- [57:33]
A
Yep.
- [57:33]
C
I think where I want to end is just with just a note on humility. Because I do think that we have maybe some faulty notions about humility. Like I was saying at the beginning, like, what we're not. Not called to do is just to go around correcting Everybody, somebody, anytime they give us a compliment, you know, and be like, oh no, I'm not great. You know, oh no, it's not me. It's not self abasement. That's not humility. Actually. Here, let me give you. This is our real daily beekner for today to end. This is Beechner writing about humility and he says humility is often confused with saying you're not much of a bridge player when you know perfectly well you are conscious or otherwise. This kind of humility is a form of gamesmanship. If you really aren't much of a bridge player, you're apt to be rather proud of yourself for admitting it so humbly. This kind of humility is a form of low comedy. True humility doesn't consist of thinking ill of yourself, but of not thinking of yourself much differently from the way you'd be apt to think of anybody else. It is the capacity for being no more and no less pleased when you play your own hand well than when your opponents do. So I, I think when we are advocating true humility here, I think of it as. It is the ability to say both thank you and great job with the same level of heart and honesty. And so if you did excellently, you know, Marty, if you just like preached an awesome sermon.
- [58:58]
A
Yeah.
- [58:59]
C
And somebody's like, dude, that was so good. It's not. Oh no, no, no, no. It's. It's just thank you. And if I preach a great sermon, it's you coming to me and saying, dude, that was awesome. Which I mean, you do. Like this is something that you embody. I think that's a picture of true humility. It's not about just going around being self deprecating. Especially like it can be in a false way that ends up making people think you're so humble. Not that, not that. But what Freddie is saying.
- [59:24]
A
Yeah. And I love the. I mean, stewardship's one of my favorite concepts, one of my favorite words. And I think about Stuart in light of this and vainglory would be where a steward is trying to act like they're not a steward, they're actually the owner. But to not acknowledge your place as a steward would be equally foolish.
- [59:43]
C
Right.
- [59:43]
A
So I love how all this connects the idea of stewardship because I know I have a. I have a place in this and I'm not the owner of it and it all goes somewhere else. I do, however, have a part that I play in this and I know what that part is. And humility is knowing, living in that in that space. That is accurate.
- [60:00]
C
Dead on. All righty with that, let's get to our self examination questions. Brent, you want to read these and take us home?
- [60:07]
B
What is my response internally and externally when someone praises me? What do I do even subtly to make sure my virtue is at least a little more recognizable? How do I respond when someone else gets the credit I deserve? What would it look like for me to pursue and achieve excellence as unto the Lord?
- [60:30]
C
All right, that's all I got.
- [60:31]
A
That's pretty good. That's pretty good questions there at the end too. Man, I just wrestled with half this stuff today too. A real booger of a timing on this.
- [60:40]
C
Funny how that works out, huh?
- [60:42]
B
I wish that we could take a survey of all of our listeners and ask them which vice they feel like they struggle with the most. I wish that I had thought about this. I mean, I kind of thought about it, but like, really, like make me pin down like, okay, what is my one vice? And then be able to look at it at the end.
- [61:00]
C
Yeah, at the beginning you have a survey and it's the seven vices. And at the end it's the seven vices. But another option, all of the above.
- [61:07]
B
Yeah, I think we'd have 100% on that one. Is what it's shaping up to be, I think. Reid. So that will do it for this episode. Listeners can find details of all the things that we talked about. We got a half dozen links in the show notes, so you can find those in your podcast app. You can also find them@baymondiscipleship.com and yeah, I'll just say thank you to those of you who are joining us on this journey. Thank you to those of you who support our work and help us wrestle through these things together. We're honored that you would join us in that process. Process. And thank you for joining us on the Baymont podcast today. We'll talk to you again soon.