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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. This is the Baywall podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today I'm with Reed Dent to talk about envy.
- [00:13]
B
So there's this movie called the talented Mr. Ripley. Young Matt Damon, an all star cast. Gwyneth Paltrow, Philip Seymour Hoffman. Jude law came out 99. And Matt Damon plays this young man, Tom Ripley. He's a mercurial figure and he's kind of a con man and he's pretending to be someone else as he's traveling like around Europe. And there are some people who know who he is and some people who think he's this someone else. And there is murder involved eventually. And I don't want to spoil the whole movie, but it kind of all of the lies start to stack up and he's in danger of being fully found out. And at the end of the movie there is this amazing, ominous scene where he is for once like having an honest, vulnerable conversation sort of with somebody right before he kills them. But he has this line that sticks with me. That is kind of the essence, I think, of what envy is. He's talking to this person in kind of a confession. He says, I'm lost and I've lied about who I am and where I am and now no one will ever find me. And the line then that he says is, I always thought it would be better to be a fake somebody than a real nobody. And of course, now for our daily Buechner, who defines envy this way. He says envy is the consuming desire to have everybody else be as unsuccessful as you are. Wow. I gotta say, this conversation about envy. Envy is a tough one to talk about because there's very little to like, commend in envy. Lots of the other vices, like there are, there's something fun about them, there's something pleasurable about them at least. And envy is kind of like the vice that is sort of mo is just living in misery. And so it's not fun. And it forces us to confront, I think, some unflattering things about ourselves. I mean, they all do, right? But I think the hard thing about envy is that it forces us to confront the ways in which we see ourselves to be inferior or unflattering and then how we let that eat us up inside about other people who we always, of course, take to be not inferior. And anyway, we'll get into that. This is falling. There is, as we've said on the, on the series, there are many different ways to think about how the vices feed into each other. And It's a very instructive, I think, exercise to think about how they pair up and how they lead one to another, but there's not, like, a strict ordering of them. But this episode is going to be coming on the heels of our episode that we just did on Vainglory, and it's kind of its weird inverse opposite, where Vainglory has very much an obsession with kind of how I am perceived. Envy has an obsession with how other people are perceived and how I stack up against that. So let's just have a little bit of a conversation first, in kind of keeping with the way we've been doing this and try to get our minds around what it is that we're talking about when we talk about envy. Because, as with the other vices, there's, like, sort of a surface level way that we think about it, and then it tends to go much deeper. And, of course, the hard thing about going deeper is the deeper you go, the more you realize, like, actually, this does apply to me. Right. Where the surface level, it's like, oh, yeah, that's not really my thing. And then you look and I mean, keep saying this throughout this whole part of the series that's on the vices is. I think they're kind of all my thing, Brent. If I'm being really honest, they're all my thing.
- [04:29]
A
Hopefully we can say the same thing when we get to the virtue section. Right.
- [04:33]
B
Wow, Brent, that's, like, such a kind and charitable thing to say, and I think. Yeah, I'm gonna go with that. It may not be, but I'm gonna really hope it is.
- [04:44]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [04:45]
B
Okay, so let's talk about synonyms for envy. Just. What. What's the first thing that comes top of your mind?
- [04:53]
A
Well, when I was first thinking about it, it kind of seems like it's of a piece with greed.
- [04:58]
B
Oh, okay.
- [04:58]
A
What as like. And being envious of physical possessions.
- [05:03]
B
Okay.
- [05:04]
A
But I think, you know, there's lots of other things to be envious about when you start to think about it a little bit. So.
- [05:09]
B
Yeah. So the Bible word that we sometimes use is covetous. Right. And that's. That feels related to greed, for sure. I think the surface level of envy probably does seem pretty much like what we think of as covetousness, which is basically somebody else has something, and I want that thing. So I'm envious of your lawn and how immaculately kept your grass is. Like, I want my lawn to be like that. Right, right.
- [05:38]
A
Yeah.
- [05:38]
B
Or like, you have, you know, a 20, 23 Chrysler Pacifica, but mine's only a 2017. And so I, I want that. And like, that's not a great way to. That's not a great mindset to live with. But I think envy in the sense that we mean it as a capital vice, and again, vices not as like a sinful action, but as kind of a disposition or a habit that then gives way to many different destructive ways of living. Envy isn't so much about wanting the car or the lawn. It's not about so much coveting the possession as it is about latching on to what that must mean about that person who has that car and what it must mean about me who doesn't have the car. And so envy, I think where covetous maybe lives at the level of the material things, I want to have what they have. I think envy is much more about identity and it's much more about wanting to kind of be who I perceive that person to be. And so I, I call envy the patron vice of withering, where like, the more and more you come to obsess over someone else and the goodness that is in them, the talents that they have, the skills, the accolades, just the status that they have, you kind of obsess over that and how that is not yours and that makes you start to become less and less and less. And envy, I think it's important to point out, it sees a sort of zero sum existence when it comes to goodness or talent or success or claim or those various things. And I think envy, the envious person, is convinced that those things can't be shared, that it's zero sum in the sense that like, it's not only one of us can be seen as this or that. Right? Only one of us can succeed in this way or that way. So envy's thing is not me too, but like the, the vicious part of it is me instead.
- [07:58]
A
Yeah.
- [07:59]
B
And so while envy, I think the envious person, you know, envy grows in the soil of insecurity. Like on the one hand is what you perceive to be the strengths of the person that you envy. And then on the other hand is how you see a deficiency in yourself in all those ways. And so it grows in the soil of like, insecurity. And I think the envious person, they can look different ways. For me, envy has manifested in like a sort of a withdrawing, you know, like I, I kind of turn in on myself and I stay out because if I can't have the spotlight to myself, then I'm just going to shrink away from it completely. But also envy is, like, vindictive in this zero sum. Like, well, only one of us can actually, like, have this goodness or this success. The envious person gets to this point where I relate to this. I'm not trying to. Like, we're approaching all of these vices sympathetically, not judgmentally. And so if this is you, dear listener, like, I'm with you. Okay. This is not me just, like, shaming you for this. But maybe some people know what I'm talking about, where you would be just as happy for the person you envy to lose what they have, to fail to suffer to lose whatever they have as you would be for you yourself to win. Like, you're just as content for their failure as you are for your own success. I was reading in Glittering vices the Rebecca DeYoung book that we've talked about, and she. She references this Victor Hugo poem that imagines it's envy and avarice as these kind of two persons, and they meet desire. And desire says, I will give you whatever you ask, but it will be doubled for the other person, for the other one. So, like, whatever you ask, the other one gets doubled. And envy this way. It's so good. The poem ends with envy wishing to be blind in one eye so that avarice will become blind in both. And so the envious person is like, yeah, I'll have some suffering, but I want you to have twice as much as I have. Which goes into the. That gets back to the beginner thing we had at the beginning. Right. It's like there's a sort of misery that you feel being envious. Like, feeling like you don't stack up and you don't necessarily need to win, but you would. Deep down, there is this thing where you desire that they would be just as unsuccessful as you are.
- [10:37]
A
Yeah. It's not really possible for you to win without the other person losing. In a lot of these cases, like, if we're talking about the nice lawn, like, who has the nicest lawn on my block? Well, nicest means there can only be one.
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B
Yes.
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A
And right now, it's clearly my neighborhood, and I don't want them to have the nicest lawn. And how hard is it to have a nice lawn? It's a lot of work.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [11:01]
A
So it's probably easier to sabotage the neighbor's lawn and bring it down below your level than it is to bring yours up to a level above theirs.
- [11:10]
B
Yeah. There was another quote that I found from Dorothy Sayers, who said, envy is the great leveler. And if it cannot level up, then it will level down, as in, it will bring you down to be at my level. But I think that's actually not true. I mean, in a very strict sense. But it feels like a conviction of the envious person to say it's a zero sum game, for example, when it comes to the lawn, you know that like, only one of us can have the best and to become obsessed. And I guess, I mean, I don't know, there's like, probably a million different things you would evaluate, like who has the best lawn. But it is the sensibility of the envious person that obsesses over, like, not just who has the best, but again, what that says about the person who has it. So I think, like, what the question that we're really looking at when we look at envy, it's not just about wanting somebody else's stuff, but really what this comes down to. And this is such, like, an important question, especially so, you know, working with college students in this time of life when you are young and it starts like, you know, when you're just starting to, you know, hit adolescence, you can't help but, like, always be stacked up against other people in your own mind, you're trying to figure out who you are. And one of the most natural ways you can try to figure out who you are is by measuring yourself against everyone else. And this is the thing about envy is that self worth is not intrinsic. It's comparative. And who hasn't played the comparison game, right? And that feeling again of like, I pull up to the stoplight and like, there's the person driving the nice car, and here's my car. And it's not even so much about the car, is about this weird embarrassment that it's like, what does it say about me? You know? But the question with envy is how do we relate to the goodness in others? And when there is goodness in someone else, whether that be again, like a, a, a quality or whether that's some kind of a success or an achievement, does that make me stand up and celebrate? Do I have the capacity to rejoice over somebody else's success as they rejoice? Or is the way that I relate to the goodness in others to, like, slink back and sulk or to become bitter or to become vindictive or competitive? And if that is how I feel, then it seems like that vice of envy maybe has its claws in me, which then takes us to the even maybe the fundamental question here, which is, how do I relate to how God has created me. Because envy, I think, grows from. And it also festers like a resentment at who God has made me to be and how God has made me to be. This is the. And maybe we'll get to this a little later, but you know the passage in Corinthians about the body and its many parts? Right. And the envious person is like, I don't want to be a hand, I want to be a brain. And I think everybody goes through a process of dealing with envy because we all go through a process of figuring out what our identity is going to be like, what's going to get the last word in determining the value of who we've been made to be.
- [14:42]
A
Yeah, I was just getting on my boys yesterday about like, they were fighting over who got to go to the bathroom and so they're like pushing on the door.
- [14:51]
B
Have been there, by the way, definitely with my boys, same thing.
- [14:54]
A
But like, if Torn slips, like, Darius is so much bigger than him, so much stronger than him. Torn gets his fingers smashed in the door and he loses a couple fingers. I'm like, guys, first of all, it's not like it's a death sentence, but also, how different would his life be without a couple of fingers? The hand is essential. Like, yes, the brain is essential too, but it's all like, important and valuable. You can't just. Yeah.
- [15:23]
B
So I think it's worth looking at. There is. With some of the. We've. With most of the vices we've been talking about, we have done a little survey of Aquinas, did like a sort of mapping of. Here are the destructive behaviors that arise out of, you know, the soil of these head vices. And this is why these vices are called capital. Like, they, they lead to many other things. And there is kind of a progression, I think, in the way that envy starts to play out that begins small but actually ends with maybe like the most destructive behavior. And again, we're not trying to rank the vices, like, in terms of which one's the worst or something, but it is interesting how envy starts as kind of a pettiness, but then becomes something that is much closer to like full blown wrath. So let me just go through these for a second. We began by noting, and Augustine also noted some of these things. He didn't quite systematize it the way that Aquinas did, but beginning with what Aquinas calls detraction, when you detract from somebody else. And I think we all know this, right? Where I do little things and I say Little things to try to kind of knock the shine off of somebody else's accomplishment. When somebody is getting praised, the detraction, the envious person is like, well, yeah, but like. And then they minimize it or they find a way to critique instead of just being able to let it be appraised. Instead of just letting the person, like, have the spotlight, they try to, like, dim that bulb just a little bit that's shining on them. Does that make sense?
- [17:06]
A
Yeah, I think so.
- [17:07]
B
Okay.
- [17:07]
A
I'm trying to puzzle out a couple of different scenarios, but I'll let you get through this and then I'll think about it.
- [17:12]
B
Okay? Okay. And again, I'm not trying to prescribe too strongly a. It always goes like this, but more of like if we're rolling down a hill or if you're descending from the top of a mountain to the bottom, like, this is generally how the climate tends to change or the ecosystem changes from the top to the bottom. And so beginning with, again, just trying to knock the shine off of somebody else's accomplishments. Aquinas also notes what he then calls the sin of whispering, which is to speak ill of somebody else, whether that is true or false, by the way, but to kind of gossip or to just say the most insulting thing, even in a way that's not even related to what's going on in the moment. Right. But what you're trying to do is just to undermine this person. And I think we can even do this kind of whispering about who they are to ourselves internally, in a sense. Like, it's believing the worst of somebody when you have options. It's like, yeah, the envious person chooses. It will find any. Take any opportunity it can get to think worse of, you know, whoever it is that they envy.
- [18:18]
A
As opposed to the concept of ayin tovah, where, oh, yes, if there is any feasible reason why whatever they're doing is the right thing to be doing, you have to assume the best in somebody.
- [18:31]
B
No, that is exactly right, Brent. And I'm so glad you said that. I wasn't going to bring this up, actually. It's not in my notes, but one of the things I was reading talks about the good eye and. And its relationship to envy. And the envious person is the bad eye. It's the ira, right, where you just. You're only trying to see the darkness in somebody. And that actually comes from this place of, like, because you. You are convinced that's not true of you and you wish it was true of you.
- [18:55]
A
Yeah.
- [18:56]
B
Yeah, that's a great point. So Then there is like what Aquinas calls the sin of rivalry. And you know, for all my sports people out there, you're like, wait a minute, what's wrong with a good old fashioned rivalry? Like, read, don' you and Marty, like actually live this out on the podcast in front of us with your bickering about football, et cetera. I'm not talking necessarily about sports rivalries, but when it comes to something, anything, where there is a way to compete with somebody, and this isn't just sports, okay? Like we compete in all kinds of ways or we make up things in our mind that we're competing in. The scent of rivalry that comes from vice is when you are trying to best somebody out of spite and simply out of spite rather than some noble aim. Like, right, we can, we can imagine like how competition is actually a very good thing and you can compete for noble reasons, you know, and all competitors, like enter into a game together agreeing, like, somebody's going to come out the best here. That doesn't make you all a bunch of envious, like rival risk people. But there is a difference between I want to win just to see you lose versus I want to win for some more noble reason. Make sense, right?
- [20:11]
A
Yeah.
- [20:11]
B
Then we start to get into the really dark aspects of envy. And one is feeling grief at somebody else's prosperity. So like if your neighbor gets a raise and you don't and you feel mad about that or somebody, I don't know, there are many. I don't actually go through a bunch of things as hypotheticals or examples, but I don't think it's hard to relate to. Right. When we see somebody else do well, the envious person feels upset. And the kind of twisted other half of that is then what Aquinas calls joy at another's misfortune. There's a German word for this, Schadenfreude.
- [21:00]
A
Yep.
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B
I think that's how you pronounce it in German.
- [21:02]
A
Uh huh.
- [21:03]
B
Anyway, this is a word that's been actually adopted into English, but it just means like, I feel like my heart swells a little bit when somebody else suffers.
- [21:14]
A
Huh?
- [21:15]
B
Right. Like, oh yeah, they got what's coming to them. Or oh yeah, like, looks like you got some moles digging up your yard. Sucks to be you, you know, Guess my grass is going to look better. Guess that makes me a better person. And this is like, I have felt this before and I know it sounds monstrous, but I think a lot of us probably do relate to this when it's like, oh yeah, like you feel a little bit of relief, right, when something goes wrong for somebody else. The person that you envy, which, that, that's bad.
- [21:46]
A
But like read your next sentence in the notes here.
- [21:48]
B
Yeah. So then that becomes an effort to engineer their misfortune. Like when you really let yourself go there. And the person who is taken over by this vice of envy finds themselves maybe not preventing a misfortune that you could like the sin of omission, you know, or then a sin of commission, right, where you actually are trying to work for their misfortune. And then finally the sort of. The culmination of the sin of envy actually is hatred for. Where you just completely despise someone else and you actively like work for their harm. I wrote envy is wrath with low self esteem. Wrath is this sort of uncontrolled, passionate, just almost impulse. Right. But envy is like, it's cold and it. Yeah, I mean, see the talented Mr. Ripley. Anyway, you come to full blown despite. And it's this twisted irony, right? Because the person that you envy in some way, you want to be them, but you also like despise them. And it's this crazy like psychological sort of back and forth turmoil. But yeah, so that is how then this is why some people say that envy's opposite is actually like love. And what you are unable to do when you are envious is to truly love another person. Because inherent to envy is that you want their failure and love cannot desire the failure of its object. Okay, so let's pause there then. I think we've got sort of a. At least an idea of an image of envy. What that does inside of a person, what's actually going on in terms of how you relate to other people. And with each of the vices we've also talked about, there is some good thing that we're actually after here. There is some desire that we have that is good. Like nobody wants envy just for the sake of being miserable or just for the sake of hatred. But there is something that we're after that then envy comes in and it distorts and it destroys. And this one actually I had to puzzle out a little bit more. Some of them feel more obvious. But honestly, the one for envy, what it is that we're after was a little bit tougher for me. So I'll give my thought. And then Brent, if you have anything. This is not like the end all be all. I don't know that this is the right answer. This is just my observation. And if you have anything to add to it, I'd love to hear it.
- [24:22]
A
Okay.
- [24:23]
B
Okay. So I think what the envious person really desires, there is a desire to see flourishing. There is a desire to see the image of God actually in action, to see the kingdom of God realized, which requires the various talents and skills and success of real human beings. And there is a desire too, that we have not just to see the kingdom realized or to see the image of God, but to actually play a part in that. We have a desire to have a part to play. We have a desire to fulfill a purpose. And so we maybe even deep down, envy kind of it, it feeds off of and distorts this good desire that I want to thrive and flourish. And it is perfectly good for me to want for myself to thrive and flourish. But what envy does, there's this deception that is like, inherently you don't have quality you are not worthy of, like flourishing or love or however you want to say it. And envy then distorts that desire to thrive and flourish so that we actually come to despise the flourishing of others. And we see flourishing as a thing that we just want to hoard for ourselves and we want to be recognized. And it feels a little bit related to in. So last week talking about vainglory and how vainglory preys on like a desire for approval. Like we have a good God given desire to be actually approved and recognized, but it distorts it to where that becomes supreme. And you know that, that desire to have somebody tell us, like, well done, to know that somebody delights in us, that's what vainglory preys on until that is all that matters, to the exclusion of everybody else. And so envy and vainglory kind of become two sides of a coin. But yeah, that, that was my thought on, like, what's the good thing we're after? You have anything on that, Brent?
- [26:19]
A
Well, just on the two sides of that coin idea, I'm. I'm trying to think like the envy, it's not so much about possessions. We've got that covered with greed.
- [26:30]
B
Right.
- [26:30]
A
And it's not so much about, like the pride of a position. Kind of seems like the situation where you're recognized by all these people and it's kind of more about the third party. It's more about the observer. Whereas envy is like, I want that position and I don't even really care what the recognition is of it. I just want to have the position. I just want to have the status. I just want to have whatever you have probably taking your place in that position. But it's not even like to the end of. Because then I'll be recognized by all these people as such and such. It's just having the title.
- [27:14]
B
Yeah. I mean, I think we've seen how lust and gluttony are, are sort of related. Right. And they begin in their healthiest form. They begin as distinct things, but the more and more they become distorted, the more they start to look like each other. And I think there is something similar going on with envy and vainglory. But the hinge point is how you relate to your own self. And so the vainglory person, the proud person, has like an over estimation or inflation of self. And the envious person is like a very much malnourished underestimation of self. And so while both have to do with, you know, both manifest, I guess, in like how we kind of pursue like accomplishments and achievements and stuff, they're coming from different places where the envious person is like a. Have not, you know, and they see a deficiency and somebody else has it and they like want to, you know, to have that for themselves. Whereas the proud person doesn't really care about other people. You know, they're. They're only concerned about their own image, like in. Even if it's in a vacuum, if that makes sense.
- [28:32]
A
Yeah.
- [28:32]
B
And again, I think for the envious person, it's because of that sort of zero sum approach to only, only one of us, you know, can thrive or succeed or flourish. And there is a fear that it says, again, the desire is for flourishing to have a part to play. But the fear is like this fear of scarcity that's like there's not enough to go around.
- [28:54]
A
Yeah.
- [28:55]
B
And so we do all kinds of bitter, you know, twisted things or attitudes at least that we carry towards other people, like what Aquinas was talking about. And this leads very much to like a life that is not the best we can do. That is not the image of God.
- [29:11]
A
I wonder if there are situations where we try to leverage envy, like in the neighborhood situation where it's like, oh, well, if I replace my roof, then my neighbors across the street whose roof is looking a little rough, like maybe that will motivate them to want to keep up.
- [29:30]
B
Yeah.
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A
And so it's like, well, they do need a new roof.
- [29:34]
B
Yeah.
- [29:34]
A
But you know, the core of my desire for that is not exactly as pure as like, hey, you should probably get a new roof so the rain is not leaking in on your heads. I want you to be. Well, it's. I want my neighborhood to look Better. And so I'm going to try to force you into it by doing something that makes you envious. Like goading people into envy.
- [29:56]
B
Yeah, I mean, so the person doing the goading may be a cunning person. They're not necessarily an envious person, but they know how to play on that in other people. There's actually getting into the cultural conversation. Conversation. You've preempted the notes here. So, no, good job, because that was actually the next thing, because I was thinking about, does the culture value envy, other vices? Like, there is something valuable in them, right? There is some even something pleasurable, like we talked about before, lust and gluttony and greed, vainglory and wrath. Like, even Acedia, which is at the end of our vice list in this series, can be a kind of pleasurable, kind of numbness. And there's something that, like, the culture latches onto and can somehow turn it into, I don't know, just something. Something positive. Right. But like, with envy, I don't know that there's much to really commend about it. Maybe because there is, like, inferiority inherent in envy. You know, you feel what causes you to want for the other person to suffer is that you feel inferior to them. And so having to acknowledge envy as a good thing, I guess, would make some kind of an endorsement for inferiority, which is definitely not something that, like, culturally, like, we're going to. We're going to do. And yet I do think, though, exactly what you're saying, Brent, that the culture can certainly play on the envious tendencies that we have or the. The vice of envy within us. Like I was thinking about an analogy where, you know, culturally we have a virtue of success and achievement, right? And if we think about that as destination, that's where we're trying to get to. Competition is like the car that's going to get us there, right. And competing with others and besting them in competition. But it is the. I see envy as like the gas in. In the. That is actually fueling that competition. And it leads to all kind of bad kinds of rivalry and, you know, just unkind, uncharitable ways of treating other people. So competition is good and success is fine, but it's when it's motivated by envy, that sense of inferiority, that sense of I want to have it and you can't have it, that leads into a lot of trouble. I guess so, yeah. I don't know. Do you think that there is. Is there something I'm missing? Like, is there a way that culturally Envy actually is, like, attractive.
- [32:32]
A
I mean, I think we turn it around and kind of make it like. Like a drive or a motivation to get some, like, a driven personality. It's like, well, what is actually driving them?
- [32:45]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [32:46]
A
And then that's probably envy of whoever is above them and whatever their system is. But that's. That's, like, praised.
- [32:54]
B
Well, I think the drive is praised, but nobody wants to admit. Right, right. That, like, I want to be like you. You might want to be better than them. Right, right. But not because you are envious of what they have.
- [33:08]
A
Yeah.
- [33:08]
B
You know what I mean?
- [33:09]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [33:10]
B
Yeah. So I think it can have utility or. I mean, envy has some utility, for sure. I don't know that it has a lot of appeal.
- [33:17]
A
So I guess my question after that is, how does jealousy fit into it? Because I kind of feel like that's what I'm talking about. But maybe not, because, you know, like, the. The parts of the Bible that talk about God being a jealous God. It's like, well, then that must be a good thing. But I also feel like I'm kind of describing jealousy. So what?
- [33:37]
B
Yeah, yeah, totally.
- [33:38]
A
What's the distinction here?
- [33:40]
B
Totally. This is. Yeah. So jealousy and envy, there can be a. Maybe a healthy. Healthy kind of jealousy. I don't know that there's healthy envy. So. Yeah. In the ten Commandments in the Decalogue, for our smarty theologians out there, the commandment that is being given about idol or image making and how you can't do that because God says, I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God. Jealousy. Rebecca DeYoung kind of notes this distinction where jealousy is related to what you have and envy is related to what you don't have. And so what she says is. Well, she doesn't say this. That's what she said. What I'm saying is jealousy is like, you have someone. I think it's often people related, but I guess it could be about things. But you have. You have someone who, quote, unquote, belongs to you in some sense, and they are having their devotion to you or their affection to you seized by somebody else who doesn't have a rightful claim to it. Okay, so like, with dude sensitivity, like infidelity. Right. And this is actually like this. This comes up in the scriptural metaphor because I have a rightful claim to this person who belongs to me. And somebody else is trying to take that. And it is not about me wanting what they have. It's about me wanting to keep what they are trying to take from me. That like, justly belongs to me. Does that make sense?
- [35:16]
A
Yeah.
- [35:17]
B
So that's jealousy, and we should feel that, you know, And I think even like when. So as my kids get older, and I'm thankful that I have, you know, I have good kids and they have good friends, but I think when parents see their kids getting into the middle school age, the high school age, and they start to get drawn away in a way that's detrimental to them by the quote, unquote, wrong crowd. Right. There is a jealousy that that parent feels that is like you are snatching away something that doesn't belong to you in a way that's detrimental to the thing you're snatching away. So that's jealousy, but envy. And this is something that Rebecca DeYoung says. She says the envious, by contrast, are the have nots. They do not have the good their rival does, and they do not have self love. Thus they have nothing to lose and everything to gain from another's loss. So does that. I hope that kind of clears it up. It's really about who has a rightful claim to what is being had, you know, and is that mine and you're taking it, or is that yours and I'm trying to take it, you know, because I feel like I don't have enough of it or whatever that is. That's envy different than jealousy.
- [36:29]
A
And maybe some of our cultural use of the word jealousy is an attempt to justify our envy by calling it jealousy.
- [36:37]
B
Yeah. Yeah, I can totally see that. So we've been having a conversation too, in each of these vices, just thinking about the consequences. And we've, you know, that's already built into some of what we've been saying. But, you know, one of the questions that we've been asking is how does this vice diminish me? And I think the interesting thing about envy is that envy preys on an already diminished sense of self. Right? So. And then it becomes this vicious cycle. But it begins with pointing out to you, like, yeah, you're not as much as or as good as. Or as talented as. Or as loved as this other person. And then as you become more and more consumed with the goodness you perceive in them, you. Your own goodness, which is actually there, but you're just not seeing it or valuing it. That goodness itself becomes consumed and diminished. I think what's more interesting with envy is how it destroys connection and community. Because one thing that I have, like, has occurred to me in thinking about all of this is that the envious pe. Envious people don't make good friends. Well, they just don't. Right. Because.
- [37:52]
A
Yeah.
- [37:53]
B
So Aristotle, Carl Clifton Soderstrom, in his book the Cardinal of the Deadly, he drew my attention to this bit from Aristotle, who said, there's a paraphrase. But the noblest pleasure in a virtuous friendship is to take joy in the success of your friend. One of the best pleasures you can have in a genuine friendship is to be stoked and celebrate when your friend is successful.
- [38:16]
A
Yeah.
- [38:16]
B
And so the envious, like, when it comes to the most significant moments of life that either should be bursting with joy or like riffled through with grief, what do you want from your friends? Right. You want your friends to be in that with you and to be celebrating or to be mourn? Right. This is rejoice with those who rejoice. Mourn with those who mourn. And yet the envious, they do exactly the opposite where they like somehow make it about them and they somehow feel good when you are down or they feel bad when you're doing well. And so it just eats away at what could be this beautiful picture of like all of us in this together. And the envious wants to make everything about themself in this. And. And so do the vain, glorious. But in the envious, it's this especially like withered, miserable, you know, pity party is what my parents used to call it when I was a kid sort of way. Does that make sense?
- [39:24]
A
Absolutely.
- [39:24]
B
Yeah. Sartre, John Paul Sartre said, hell is other people. And I think envy agrees, raises its glass to that one. Like, yeah, hell is other people. Okay, let's get into a little bit of the text conversation here before we wrap up with just talking about, you know, how do we, how do we. What do we have to aim for? Like, what's the positive, full human image of God, flourishing sense that we're trying to get to that envy keeps us away from. So probably the original, the prime story of envy in the Bible is, you know, where I'm going the very first one, earliest on Cain and Abel. That's right. We've done an episode on this before. I'm not trying to, again with all of these episodes. I'm not trying to do a super in depth text dive, but just to show like a little bit maybe what it has to say about this. Can you read Genesis 4 starting in verse 2, going through about verse 7 here, Brent.
- [40:21]
A
Now, Abel kept flocks and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time, Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord and Abel also brought an offering, fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering. But on Cain and his offering, he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry and his face was downcast. Then the Lord said to Cain, why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door. It desires to have you, but you must rule over it.
- [41:02]
B
Okay, let's stop there. The question that we often ask about this passage, the mystery that pops up is why didn't God accept Cain's offering? But God did accept Abel's offering. And I think no matter what ways we interpret, like, we're. We're all just kind of making our best guess as to why that may be. And there are better guesses than others, maybe are more. More informed ones based on just subtleties in the text. But I think at the end of the day, like, we really just don't actually know. And even like I was looking into, I was wishing I had L on this episode actually. So we could talk a little bit more about the Hebrew here. But even when it talks about the Lord regarding the way that he regards or looks on with favor, I don't know if that's like the best translation, because it has that implied valuation. It has favor where I wonder if there is some ambiguity about. Maybe it's just that God, for. For God's own reasons that we don't know, but like, chose not to pay attention to that one. Right? Not to regard it, not to look at it. But whether it was because it was a bad offering or not, or it just was a. Disregarded or not necessarily disrespected, you know what I'm saying?
- [42:23]
A
Right.
- [42:24]
B
It is kind of ambiguous. But whatever the case, Cain is very angry, as the text notes. And God comes in and says, you know, if you do what is right. And again, this text here, that's in the niv, if you do what is right, will you not be accepted? I don't know that that is actually the best translation that we can get there. And all the commentators that I've read have actually said, you know, this section, the Hebrew is particularly enigmatic and everybody's kind of making their best guess. I think literally, it's just if you do write, there is uplift is what one of the texts that I was looking at says. It's just there is uplift. And of course it's like, well, what uplift of what you know. But the point is that like, if you do what is right here, Cain, you will be lifted up. And so what is causing you to be lifted down? And my question is, do right with what. And I think there's a way of reading this to say if you do right with your next offering, you know, like, give it a good try, like, learn from your mistakes and then you will be accepted and then you won't have to like feel angry anymore because I will have approved of your offering. That's one way to see it. But like, what if what is God is saying is, look, you're in this place of anger because for reasons you don't understand, like Abel's was regarded and yours wasn't. And maybe what you are feeling is this sort of like festering envy that will take root and that will become something super destructive because you want to have the life right now that your brother has because you're perceiving something and we don't actually know right, what's really going on. And so like, maybe what God is saying is if you do well with your disappointment here, even like how he, you know, the, the, the sense that for the envious self worth is comparative and not intrinsic. And so God is like, if you let that keep eating you up, sin is crouching at your des, at your door. And of course then we know what happens in the story. Cain doesn't do well with it. But I wonder if rather than getting into the weeds about like, what was the nature of the offering and could it have better or could have been worse? Like reading this text at the level of this is about what we do when we wish we had someone else's life because we all find ourselves and you know, and maybe we even find ourselves asking internally, well, why would God, you know, why would God give that guy the better lawn and not me, you know, and it's, it's a kind of way of looking at these comparative, like, should I have done something differently? Like, did God regard him in a way that he's not regarding me? And that can eat you alive, you know, and so we all find ourselves naturally in these places. And I wonder if the, the kind of counsel that God is giving to Cain is this is about what you do with this feeling of envy. And if you don't get under control, it's going to lead to something really destructive both for your brother and for your own self. I want to go to one other story that I think plays on this very thing and this is in First Samuel. So I want to go to the story of Saul and David because, like, it's pretty well known how Saul treated David. And so. But I was curious to see what's the kind of spark behind this. You know, we know about Saul wanting to, like, hunt David down, but, like, where does this enter in, you know? And so in 1st Samuel 18, just to set up the story a little bit. So Saul has met David only just before. What happens in this. In this story? This is the end of the David and Goliath episode. And so just before this, has Saul met David? In chapter 16, David is anointed by Samuel. But crucially, Saul does not know this yet. Saul does not know. And actually, like, that's, you know, that's one of the points of their conversation is like, Saul's gonna find out about this. So Saul doesn't know David's been anointed. And then when Saul meets David, he brings him in to soothe him with music. And so things are going okay, right? Saul is feeling tormented, and there's like a whole thing here that we're not going to go into, but he and David are on good terms. He's having David come in and comfort him, right? Then in chapter 17, Saul kind of, you know, again see Marty's episode about David and Goliath, but Saul kind of severely missteps and lets David go do the thing instead of himself and fight Goliath. And so then here in chapter 18, David's had some military success. And we are brought to a very key moment in their relationship and into a look into Saul's psychology that is causing him to then become, like, go on this murderous rampage trying to hunt down David. So can you read this section here? 1st Samuel 18, 6 through 9, when.
- [47:40]
A
The men were returning home after David had killed the Philistine, the women came out from all the towns of Israel to meet King Saul with singing and dancing, with joyful songs and timbrels and lyres. As they danced, they sang, saul has slain his thousands and David his tens of thousands. Saul was very angry. This refrain displeased him greatly. They have credited David with tens of thousands. He thought, but me with only thousands. What more can he get but the kingdom? And from that time on, Saul kept a close eye on David.
- [48:15]
B
Did you hear it? We talked about how, for the envious worth is comparative, not intrinsic. And so the dancers come out and they're singing and what are they seeing? Brent, read that line again.
- [48:29]
A
They sing the truth. Saul has slain his thousands and David, his tens of thousands.
- [48:34]
B
That is the truth.
- [48:35]
A
Objectively measurable.
- [48:36]
B
Objectively measurable. Yet this angers Saul greatly. And it's the line, read it one more time there in verse 8. What does Saul say?
- [48:48]
A
They have credited David with tens of thousands, but me with only thousands.
- [48:54]
B
But me with only thousands. And I think this is the essence of envy. There's that beast crouching again. But with me, only this. And thus begins this cycle. Because Saul, I mean, just imagine how the story might have gone differently if Saul had also been able to join in with the celebration. I mean, it is objectively good for everybody in the nation that this Philistine has been dispatched, right? That Goliath is dead and they have had victory over their enemy. This is good for everyone.
- [49:34]
A
And Saul's fear. Yeah, what more can he get but the kingdom?
- [49:38]
B
Exactly.
- [49:39]
A
We're all in the kingdom here, right? We have succeeded as a kingdom in this instance. And yet he feels like it's being taken from him.
- [49:49]
B
No, absolutely. I mean, the success of the other becomes an immediate threat to me. Like, what more are they going to take from me?
- [49:57]
A
And how easy would it have been for him to spin it? Like, David has this great military success. Saul brings him up and be like, look at what you've done, David. The Lord is clearly with you. It seems like it was just yesterday I put my armor on you for the first time. And he could take credit for raising up this great leader, but nope.
- [50:20]
B
So when I think about how the vice of envy intersects with the teachings of Jesus, I think of what is actually one of the most fundamental things that Jesus teaches us, that you should love your neighbor as yourself. Because I. I think envy is like this weird, dark inversion of this where it's loathe your neighbor as you loathe yourself. Like, at the heart of envy, as we've talked about, is a sort of self loathing. And I think this self loathing inherently kind of precludes a love of others. Because if you don't love yourself, then when you see others and what makes them lovable or what makes them commendable or the goodness in them, you see that as a threat to your place and your security in the community. And so I think we have to be willing to lean into first, like, our own intrinsic value from which Jesus says we should love ourselves. But I wonder, like, what are the reasons why we find it very hard to just go full bore with love yourself? Right? We get into the love your neighbor, but love yourself. Some of us kind of wince at, you got Any thoughts on why that is, Brent?
- [51:47]
A
I think there's this fundamental idea for a lot of people that we're not deserving of it. We can't be the judge of what it is we need. And so if we try to do something loving to ourselves, what if we go too far? What if we've done too much? What if we've been presumptuous? What if God comes back in the end and says, yeah, you shouldn't have done that. You were being greedy or whatever it was.
- [52:16]
B
Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a theological hang up. I think for us that, you know, if we lean too hard into the tradition, that is like the total depravity.
- [52:27]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [52:28]
B
It's like, yeah, you're not worthy of this. And so we get really sheepish. And actually that total depravity mindset, that's like, yeah, in the eyes of God, you're kind of like a piece of garbage. That is the breeding ground for envy. Because somehow in our twistedness, right. It's much easier to believe the depravity about ourselves, maybe, than it is about others. Well, at least for certain types of people, it is. For some of us, we're just more willing to give others a pass than we are ourselves. And I think you pointed out a right fear, too, that, like, what if we are presumptuous? Because there's sort of an out of the frying pan and into the fire possibility here, where you get out of the frying pan of envy, but then you get into the frying pan of vainglory, and you're like, yeah, I do deserve to be loved, you know, which, like, the truth there, like, is not so much in the statement, you deserve to be loved, but in the tone of voice that you say it with. Right. Because there's a way you can say the same thing with two different postures or two different tones, and one of them is true and the other one is false. And so that sense of, like, yeah, I do deserve this, like, we're afraid that we're going to go there, and God forbid that we do presume on God's kindness or that we do presume on the love of God. And yet, like, here Jesus is saying, like, these two things, and what we are commanded to do is to love our neighbor, but that is inextricably linked to the way that you are able to love yourself. And if you're. I think the. The best kind of version or vision that we have is the one where there is a robust, like, full, honest Love of both self and neighbor that can rejoice appropriately, that can mourn appropriately, that can course correct or rebuke or critique appropriately, and can encourage appropriately. And it's sort of, you know, maybe getting into, like, what helps here with overcoming, you know, envy is part of it is like, to think of ourselves rightly as we are, which means not thinking more, but certainly not thinking less than we ought to about our own value, about our own goodness. I found really practically what helps me as somebody who is a lifelong envy addict. I'm addicted to envy and have I find myself surrounded with brilliant people who I love so much in various areas, arenas of my life. So I will tell just a story about, like, there was a long time where working as the sort of backup associate number two minister to Derek, who has been on the podcast before, there were a lot of times where what was seething in me was a kind of envy. Where, like, when students would talk about, like, oh, Derek had such an impact on my life. Life. Like, what my thought internally was, was, well, what about me? And did I not have an impact? You know? Yeah. Or again with like, the crew here with you and Marty and Josh and Elle, when people are like, oh, I loved so and so's episode on. And I'm like, what about my episode? You know? Yeah. And what I found, this is a practice that I. I had to make myself do with Derek. And this is years ago, but when students would be like, talking to me about, you know, this great thing about him, I was like, I'm gonna make my job to be the biggest cheerleader, you know, and I'm gonna be the one who, like, praises those good things in the people I envy more than anything, more than anyone else, you know, and at first, maybe it's from a place of kind of. I don't want to call it insincerity, but it's a little bit pretending, right? Because my deep down, what I'm feeling is like, gosh, I wish this were me. But if I actually were totally celebrating the success or the goodness in someone else, what would I do? I'm going to be like, yeah, Derek is amazing. And that thing he did or that thing he said or the way that he is, that is amazing. Isn't that wonderful? And eventually, over time, like, that had an effect where I started to realize that the goodness that was in Derek or in any of you guys or whoever. I mean, my wife is also very wonderful and brilliant. The goodness in her is actually not a threat to me. And I was able to Expose the truth that it's not a threat by leaning full into it. Because the envious person's greatest fear is, like, everybody else is going to get praise you're not going to get. And so I was like, okay, I'm just going to lean all the way into that. If it's a zero sum game and there's only so much praise, I'm just going to see what happens if I give it all to them and I keep none for myself. And, you know, what I found is that it's not zero sum and that people are actually able to share and recognize the goodness that is present in multiple of us or in us collectively together than we are on our own. And then trying also not just to praise it, but to say, I'm going to emulate this. I don't want to try to dominate this person that I envy, but I will use them as like a role model. And I'll say, yeah, I'm going to try to be like them. Not out of a sense of spite or competitiveness, but because, like, the truth is, they are somehow, I guess, embodying or living out what it means to be the image of God in a way that, like, the world needs more of. And maybe I could try to be like that a little bit more myself. You know what I mean?
- [57:46]
A
Yeah. And not in a way that you have to, like, completely transform yourself into being a clone of them, but to be able to step back and say, what can I learn from this? And how can I make myself better in light of what they're doing?
- [57:58]
B
And it helped me to recognize that our differences were. And, you know, to going back to the hand and foot and eye and head thing, like, difference is a matter of function, like, not a value. And so. And I know that in the body's economy, probably the metaphor breaks down because there are some parts of the body that are probably more just valuable than other parts. Like, you know, I don't know, the appendix is not necessary. But in God's economy, I don't think that there is any one part that is actually more valuable than another. They're just different functions. They just do different things.
- [58:33]
A
Things.
- [58:33]
B
And asking God, like, make me content with the function that I have, knowing that it does have value. Because I think, you know, the. The picture that God wants, and this is just like, this is. This is what God is aiming for in the people of God is not a people who, like, devour and destroy each other, even inwardly, like within our own hearts. And that's exactly what envy causes us to do. But people like, it's a collective image. As each one of us, as the goodness in each one of us, like, finds its kind of expression, then the collective expresses it all the more, you know, the whole becomes greater than the sum of the parts. And what God has for his image bearers that envy destroys is actually like a people who, as we already said, the most important things, the most meaningful things about what it means to be a person in this world. We do it together wholeheartedly, where we actually are celebrating and rejoicing together. Even when the focus of that celebration or that praise falls on one of us and not on the other, even when it falls on somebody else and not me. We learn to do it together and to mourn together and to celebrate one another and to sharpen one another. And envy just gets in the way of all of that stuff. I mean, it's. It's literally corporate. It is the body. And so may we embody that truth that no one, including you yourself, is inessential. And may we embody, like, being a people who can be just as excited as, like when somebody else makes the game winning shot as when I do. May we be that kind of people. And now, unless you have anything else to add to that. Brent, you got anything else to say?
- [60:26]
A
I think I was just going to say what you're about to say.
- [60:28]
B
Yeah. Let's get to our self examination questions. We got a handful that we're ending each of these Vice episodes with. And so, Brent, would you kindly do the honors?
- [60:40]
A
Deep down, do you want to be the person you can't stand? Is there anyone of whom I regularly find myself saying, don't get me wrong, I love them. But is there anyone who when I see or hear them struggling, I feel some measure of relief? Do I wish God had given me some other quality or skill or gifting? Why am I not content with what God has given me? What would it look like for me to rejoice over the person I envy?
- [61:17]
B
All right, that's it. I don't think the resources list is going to be as long for this episode because sadly, this is a lot just coming from my own experience, because I. I know envy well, but maybe there'll be a few things in the show notes, but I have half a.
- [61:33]
A
Dozen things in there.
- [61:34]
B
Okay.
- [61:34]
A
I've been taking some notes along the way.
- [61:36]
B
Okay, okay, okay.
- [61:36]
A
More than that, I have a couple things. But yeah, listeners can find those in the show notes, hopefully in your podcast app, but also@baymondiscipleship.com you can use the contact page to get in touch with us. You can support our work. Everything we do is made possible by listeners like you who support what we do. So we thank you for that. And we thank you for joining us today on the Baymo podcast. We'll talk to you again soon.