← The BEMA Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
- [00:06]
B
This is the Bama podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we continue our analysis of season five of the Chosen with a discussion of the sixth episode.
- [00:15]
A
Only got a few episodes left. We're coming to the end of season five.
- [00:19]
B
And Marty, I just learned before we started that you are one who keeps up on their social media and is aware of some of the movements of their actors and other things. Yeah, I kind of feel like the way we're talking about this, I should pay more attention to that. I'm normally like entirely spoiler averse.
- [00:36]
A
Sure.
- [00:37]
B
And I, you know, it's like a. We do know the story of Jesus, so it's not like how much could really get spoiled.
- [00:43]
A
Yep.
- [00:43]
B
But also like, we're talking about it so much that, like, I, I feel like I should be the kind of person who's just like digging in and like looking in the background of everything they post and like, what's going to try to figure it all out. And I just, I haven't, I haven't really done that.
- [00:57]
A
Yeah, I wouldn' say that. I chase it down a hole. Like, I just, I just watch. I noticed a post where they were essentially saying goodbye to Jonathan. Roomie. After season six. I just gotten done filming season six and the post said something. It was Dallas's post said saying goodbye to Jonathan Roumie as Jesus. And so I was like, oh, that raises all kinds of questions about what is season seven and how are they doing that? And I was like, is the glorified Jesus somebody else is? Did they film those shots before he left? Season 7, the Book of Acts. What are we doing here? I'm very interested now. Very, very interested.
- [01:34]
B
Well, they have the whole show on acts, so it's like, why do they need to buy. Yeah, maybe there's. Maybe there's overlap.
- [01:40]
A
Yep.
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B
Maybe it's one of those things where there's the two shows and you kind of got to watch them together and they like, like you. The one show is from this set of people's perspective, but you see the other people in it and then you watch the other episode of the other show and it's the same thing, just from the reverse perspective. Yeah, whatever. All right, enough theorizing. Pointless, meaningless theorizing. We'll just wait and see what happens.
- [02:03]
A
Vanity of Vanities.
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B
Yes, indeed. All right, here we go with episode six. Reunions. We start off at the Passover table. Of course, we have Luke 22 at play here where Jesus is instituting the Lord's Supper. Judas is present, of course, at this time. Jesus breaks the bread, passes it first to Judas, then he drinks and passes it first to Judas. Both times that was the case. And then we go into the John 15 dialogue, and Jesus says, I am the true vine. At the moment, Judas is drinking from the cup. I don't know necessarily if that was. I mean, I'm sure it was intentional. I'm just. I don't.
- [02:51]
A
I haven't.
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B
Like. I don't have an interpreted meaning of that. But Judas drinks there. And then as he gets to the end, I believe it's verse nine where he says, abide in my love. That's when John is drinking. So that was the full. The full circle. And then Jesus makes the. The comment about my. My joy will be in you, and your joy will be full. And then Jesus looks over at the end of the table, he sees his cousin sitting there. I believe this is the Elijah's seat place. There seems to be a place sitting there. But Andrew kind of asks him what's going on. Jesus brushes him off and then goes on to some parts of John 13. And there's kind of skipping around here, but there's like. He says, not all of you are clean. And then he says, somebody's lifted his heel against me. Somebody's going to betray me. And then Peter makes a comment that I couldn't find any scriptural reference to, but he says something about, like, let us know who it is. We'll put him in a pit so it can't happen. And I was like, is this supposed to be a reference to Joseph? But I wasn't finding anything on that. And then eventually Jesus just gets up. He's like, I need a minute. The disciples start to discuss, and then it rolls into the credits from there. So kind of a lot going on in this one opening scene.
- [04:06]
A
Yeah. It's interesting that you bring up the Joseph reference. I caught it and didn't dwell on it. But there's actually quite a bit of people have pointed out within the Last Supper narratives, there's actually quite a bit of Joseph Midrash that seems to be at play. One of those being that the midrash says that Joseph was the first Nazarite. Like, he didn't drink. He stopped. Somewhere in his story, he stops drinking until he's restored to his brothers.
- [04:36]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [04:36]
A
Which mirrors Jesus saying, I will not drink of this cup again until I drink it with new with you. My father's kingdom, My father's house, man. So that'd be an interesting connection because there's plenty of stuff that could be at play there, for sure. I just had a bunch of notes. I did not like, hate this scene. Obviously there were a lot of things, if you follow a lot of the details that I've spoken about, that I wouldn't have depicted the same way. But I wasn't all torn up about it. It didn't impact me as other scenes that I might see differently. I did think the line where he starts talking about the Passover used to be this, but tonight I'm speaking of this. It used to be this, but now I'm speaking of this. And he specifically talks about the redemption for your sin and like that. That just simply wouldn't be in their consciousness. That's not how they're going to talk about those things. That's definitely classical Christian theology. That's not present at the. In that first century setting. I would want to see more like leaning into the Passover rather than kind of like stepping off of the Passover. But nevertheless, I didn't love the idea of New Covenant. People have heard me teach on that. That's a later variant to the gospel record. Now, when he says, this is a cup of a New Covenant that I take, I will not drink of it again. That would have been New Covenant. But the one where he says, this is the cup of the covenant that I think they're definitely referencing in Luke. I'd have to go back and look at the Luke and text, but I'm pretty sure that one is. Is not that cup. But on the flip side, I don't think I had really spent any time noticing and appreciating the seating arrangement. Like, they're not sitting in the triads like we depict in our presentation of a triclinium in any of our teaching. But they do have John to his right and Judas to his left. And they have Peter all the way on the end.
- [06:16]
B
Yep, yep.
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A
And I had not necessarily appreciated that until this episode, for whatever reason. I think it's because when he starts. I mean, it was a couple episodes ago when they dip in the bowl and. But I still didn't put the pieces together. But when the cups started going around, I went, oh, oh, John's in the right spot. Judith's in the right spot.
- [06:33]
B
Oh, shoot.
- [06:34]
A
Peter's in the right spot. And I really appreciated that, the visceral reaction for my family. When you got the shot of John.
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B
Oh, yeah.
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A
And I'm not sure there was a seat there or not. I don't remember there being an open seat. I definitely don't think you don't have an open seat there in the first century. So I'd have to go back and watch the other scenes to see if there's a chair sitting there in the scene. They like to drag some of that later Jewish tradition into their scenes, usually in a tasteful way that I'm okay with. But just putting him there, even if there was no physical chair there. Yeah, I thought was just. Oh, it was just. I wasn't expecting it. So well done. My whole family had this physical, visceral reaction. My wife gasped and it was just really, really good. Like, it was just so. It was so good writing that in. I had flashbacks to season one and like, my favorite scene when Mary had set out Elijah's seat. I guess they would have used Elijah's seat because they're referencing it in the Shabbat thing and they say, no, that's Passover, I guess in the chosen world, in the chosen verse, they are. They're putting the chair there. I bet it has been there in the other scenes. Brent and I just didn't necessarily recognize it.
- [07:38]
B
Well, I don't know that we really see the chairs so much.
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A
Yeah, they're just sitting on benches, probably. Yeah, probably.
- [07:43]
B
Yeah. I was noticing the table. It looked like there was an extra cup that was kind of more set a little bit farther away from Z. Yeah. I didn't go back and like, look at a wide shot to, like, count everything out, but it looked like in that close up that there was a setting there that was not Z's setting.
- [08:00]
A
Yeah, yeah, totally. That makes sense. And then just the other note I had was the tone as he's talking to Judas in this scene. There's definitely like a dark tone to, you know, woe to him. And you can read those quotes in a lot of different ways. I think I'm just so sensitive to it because in the story we know that Judas is going to take his own life and give up in a particular way. So the tone of this stuff from Jesus in particular matters to me. But again, I didn't hate that scene. A bunch of notes where I'm like, I would have done that differently. I would have done that differently. But overall, I'm loving so much about how this is all being depicted. I'm loving the backwards through the meal nature. You're not going to get a whole lot of complaints from me, except, you know, these little details. But I really, like. I just can't believe how well that has worked for them. And now I even appreciate it. More because you told me about the theatrical presentation and three different presentations or three different movies or whatever the breaks were, where you're seeing it more continuous, but now breaking it up episodically. That's just so well done. I really appreciate it.
- [09:06]
B
Well, they didn't rearrange any of the episodes. I just hadn't completely. And the breaks between the actual episodes are compressed, so it kind of flows more together. But it just didn't quite click for me that they're like, oh, the beginning of every episode is this Passover scene, and then the rest of the episode is something else. I just hadn't pulled that together for whatever reason.
- [09:31]
A
Yep.
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B
But, yeah, I think what I appreciated about the Judas parts is that they're kind of bound by the text and what they're saying. So it's like the disciples are asking who it is and Jesus doesn't say. So it's not like the chosen is going to be like, oh, it's this guy. Right. So it's not like I was expecting that. But the way they portrayed it, like, as the other disciples are asking, and even Peter like, oh, just like, we'll bind them up. We'll throw him a pit. We'll make sure this doesn't happen. Like, everybody's just pleading with Jesus to tell them who it is so they can just deal with it. And he's just like, guys, I don't want you to deal with it. Like, it is what it is. It's going to happen. I'm letting you know that it's going to happen, but I'm not asking you. It's like a scene with Judas a few episodes ago where Judas is like, well, what am I even here for? Don't you want my help? Don't you want my advice? And Jesus is like, I didn't ask you for your advice. I just want you to. So I think it's kind of. I don't know if those are necessarily connected, but that's kind of the impression that I get with it, where it's like, I'm not asking you, I'm just telling you guys what's going on. I'm not asking you to do anything.
- [10:38]
A
Yep. Yeah, great point.
- [10:40]
B
Then we do move into the credits from there. Coming out of the credits, we have a little flashback moment, says eight months earlier, Zebediah is talking about whatever boring committee nonsense Nicodemus is sleeping in his chair in the Sanhedrin.
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A
Yes.
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B
And then they kind of break up the meeting, and Ozem welcomes Niko back from where did they say he was. That's when he was in Capernaum or something. Or Bethany. Bethany.
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A
What was it? No, he was in. You got me.
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B
I didn't write it down.
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A
He was in Bethel.
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Bethel. There it is. Okay.
- [11:34]
A
Bethel. Yep.
- [11:35]
B
And then Shmuel welcomes him back as well. Very awkward conversation. Like, obviously Nicodemus has been asleep, so he's not, like, entirely present. Anyway, there's just this weird, weird stuff going on between him and Shmuel. And Zebediah is like, I'll see you at your house later. So next scene is Zebediah meeting with Nicodemus. He's talking about how he was surprised by the cooperation of the Sadducees, including Gadara. So that was like a fun little nod there.
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A
Yeah.
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B
To the differences. We've been getting a lot of that this season, of course, but continues to be in there. And then Nicodemus in the scene learns of John the Baptist's death. And it was like, what? Then he learns like, oh, that was actually just kind of the precursor to Caiaphas discussing what Jesus was doing. Nicodemus is very troubled by this. He dismisses Zebediah and then goes to Matthias, who is our boy, Jake. Jake was the actress name. I. I double checked that, but yeah.
- [12:36]
A
Oh, there you go.
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B
Yep. Matthias is his actual name. And he's like, hey, I got an assignment for you. And then from there, we cut to that present day moment where Mary is meeting with Nicodemus and boy Marty. This conversation. So each of them are trying to figure out what the other person's doing, what their motives are, what's going on in their head. And Nicodemus asked Mary about Jesus's woes to the leadership. And he's like, look, I'm a teacher. I have been given this responsibility. I have a burden. I have a duty to prove that this is wrong. And Mary's like, well, what did you see? And Nicodemus is like, he saw the.
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A
Eyes of the blind, opened the ears of the deaf, unstopped the lame man leaping like.
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B
Like dear.
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A
And the tongue of the mute singing for joy. The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light. Those that dwelt in the land of the shadow of death, upon them a light has shined. Quotes Isaiah, like, straight, just straight down. Isaiah loved it.
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B
Yeah. When he goes into that line, I'm crying right now thinking about it. I cried in the theater. I cried watching with Maggie. I cried watching it back for episode prep, taking notes. I'm crying right now. I don't know what it is about this? Like, it's like, sure, we know that he gets around to that point, but the way he delivers it. Yeah, man, it destroys me.
- [14:08]
A
He's such a good actor. It's a shame he's been missing for four seasons, five seasons, whatever. Because, man, it's just such a. Yeah, such a good actor for this. But it's such the right role for him, though, too. When he made his thunderous appearance at the end of the last episode, I was just, yeah, Nicodemus is back. And I know how the story goes. I don't know what I'm expecting, but I'm expecting, like, something. And then I get pulled right back into the man. I'm just like Nicodemus on his worst days. Like, I just immediately start associating with. Because he's like, kind of lecturing Mary on, you know, if Jesus is really trying to do this, he's really doing it a really bad way, attacking all these folks that are trying to do the right thing. And you really ought to try to understand the Pharisees. And I was just like, man, that is just me. Stop being me, Nico, you want him.
- [14:56]
B
To be like, Matthias, get my white horse. We're going.
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A
That's right.
- [15:01]
B
Oh, yeah. And I wonder too, if the language, you know, because it's the same kind of thing as like, the Matthew 11, Luke 7 thing, where Jesus is sending the message back to John the Baptist. Like, why did they show us necessarily him? I mean, other than the fact that he was just out of town for a while. But it seems like that would be the kind. I mean, maybe not, Maybe not. In the Sanhedrin, they don't like, John the Baptist was just kind of like this annoying dude out in the wilderness and who cares? But it seems like it would have been the kind of thing where somebody would have sent word. But maybe not. I don't know.
- [15:35]
A
No, I didn't think so. It made sense to me. Like, I definitely got the impression that Nicodemus had disconnected, even on purpose, just in terms of, like, character. Like, he had. He wanted to go study. He chose not to go with Jesus, and then he disappears to Bethel. And he's been doing his ministry. And we find out in this episode, he's been studying like crazy. Pretty disconnected. I'm sure they actually don't send word about what happened to the baptizer because of the ways that it probably can kick off stuff. And he's purposely. It feels like disconnected himself from this Lord. He is so out of the loop of not only what's happened to John, but what's happened with Jesus and where they're at and what's taking place.
- [16:16]
B
That's true.
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A
I really appreciated that because he kind of disappears in the Gospels, too. So I liked how they depicted that he was so bothered and so interested that he actually pulled away for a little study retreat while he went and taught people about Torah.
- [16:29]
B
Yeah. Well, the next thing that happened, I'm absolutely in love with little rabbi disciple situation. Nicodemus starts quoting Micah 5.
- [16:38]
A
Yes.
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B
And then Matthias picks it up and takes over, and he wasn't even. It wasn't like Nicodemus was testing him, but he's just like, oh, my rabbi's quoting something. I got to pick it up.
- [16:49]
A
But you, O Bethlehem, too little to be among the clan of Judah. From you shall come forth for me, one who is to be ruler of Israel. One who's coming forth is from. Of old. From ancient days.
- [17:06]
B
I don't know if that's actually what's going on there, but I thought that was a great picture of what that might look like.
- [17:11]
A
Well, I'm now realizing that Matthias. I mean, this is probably. If they're going to wrap this into a season seven, this is probably the Matthias that replaces Judas, I'm probably realizing now. Disciple of Nicodemus. That's great. It's a great little tie in.
- [17:23]
B
Yeah. That would really help explain why they picked him.
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A
Yeah, absolutely.
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B
Oh, goodness. Yeah. Although I'm sure.
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A
I mean, they picked him. They drew lots, I'll put it that way.
- [17:35]
B
Well, sure.
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A
He was one of the two finalists.
- [17:37]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure Mary was not his biggest cheerleader in that moment, based on this. But, yeah, they go into their conversation about, you know, like, hey, Mary wants him to do something. And he's like, you know, it's really difficult to get anything done. In the Sanhedrin, they're particularly sensitive about false prophecy. Like, I just can't even. I can't even broach that subject. I'm just here because I want to give you guys a warning. And Mary's like, can you please do something? And he's like. He just doesn't even say anything. So Mary starts to leave, but then turns back and she's like, hey, I should have thanked you when we talked in the market, even though it didn't work out the way you wanted it to, you came and helped me. You made the attempt. And then he's like, you know what? Your change doesn't have anything to do with me. And the fact that you have Changed the way you have is just as convincing as anything else that Jesus has done. So then Mary does leave, and then Nicodemus smacks his chair with his cane. Because I'm sure he wants to do something. And I think he's just being a little too practical. And he's like, I can't actually do anything. But then Zahara comes in, and he's like, oh, sorry for waking you up. And she's like, no, no, no. Like, it wasn't the cane, like, your passion or whatever she said.
- [18:55]
A
Just something about. I've known you long enough that when you're in this state.
- [18:59]
B
Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah.
- [19:01]
A
I certainly don't need you to raise your voice and be loud for me to know that, you know, that something is afoot.
- [19:07]
B
Yeah, yeah. So then she brings him into his own study room, and she's like, look at all this stuff. Why do you need to do all this? You know, your stuff. You can prepare your sermons in your sleep. You haven't been eating. Like, well, you just talk to me about this stuff. And he's like, I can't say anything yet.
- [19:25]
A
Yeah. You got a glimpse into where he had been since he left. Like, he has definitely been pouring over his internal tensions and struggle. I even got the sense that obviously she's been impacted by it. Maybe in a positive sense. She's not. Like, her tone as she delivered this scene. As an actress. I didn't get, like, this anger, like, previously in the seasons past, me run into her. She's. She wants her comfort. She wants her leisure. She wants to be where she wants to be. And now it's almost like this inquisitive, like, who are you and what's going on?
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B
And she's concerned about him.
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A
Yeah, absolutely.
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B
Not necessarily concerned about their, like, personal circumstances, but concerned about him as a person.
- [20:04]
A
I like that shift and that change.
- [20:06]
B
So then from there, we have Caiaphas inviting Judas in to sit down. And Judas is like, look, we gotta. We gotta set right from the beginning. We're not the same. And Caiaphas is like, yeah, we're not. I'm way better than you. And Judas, you know, confesses his belief in Jesus. And Caiaphas questions him about that. And he's like, ah, I've seen too much, but maybe not quite enough. And Caiaphas is like, judas, you're completely out of your depth here. He asks Malchus and Shmuel to leave. Judas tries to be like, flippant, like, oh, well, just let me know if you want my help. And Caiaphas is like, come on, man. Puts him in his place. Judas negotiates a little bit. They move on to haggling the price. Caiaphas ends up offering 30 pieces of silver. Judas is like, that's the price of a slave. And Caiaphas is like, well, that's about all he's worth to me. So you can take it or leave it. I can get the information out of you one way or the other, so you might as well just take the money. And Judas is like, okay, I got some conditions here. We got to do this without a crowd. He's kind of hedging everything in case Jesus doesn't actually do what he wants him to do. He's like, well, if we actually start a riot, then we're all cooked and less people get hurt if he actually flips everybody on their back and whatever. And Caiaphas is like, okay, well, then we gotta have a time limit. And, hey, man, this could be good for you. This could be how the name Iscariot is remembered. Just like, wow.
- [21:33]
A
Yeah.
- [21:34]
B
To actually put the language to that is kind of stunning.
- [21:37]
A
This scene finally delivered some of the things that just haven't quite been there for me in the high priest, chief priest scenario. I've been wanting just a little bit more sharp edge, corruption, just a little bit more upfront in your face. And this scene finally delivered it. His line about the temple guard. Like, here's the temple guard. They have a very unique way of extracting the information that we need as a threat. I thought, okay, there's that piece I need. I also got the Judas pieces I need. I don't need them to make him a zealot. I know that's my own personal flavor and opinion, but I don't need the chosen to make him a zealot. But he finally had that. Like, I am not. I'm not just a Herodian out here to make money that would be sympathetic to the priests. I am not like you. I detest what you stand for and who you are. Hedging his bets is good. Like, they did a great job piecing together. If you're not going to take the zealot stance, you got to explain, like, why is Judas and the high priest working together? Why are they doing this at night? They've pieced those pieces together in a very probable, plausible way. And this scene finally delivered some of the hard edges that I've been wanting to see. I was like, there we go. That gives me what I've been wanting.
- [22:51]
B
And I think we actually get some more hints of that later in this episode, too.
- [22:55]
A
Sure.
- [22:55]
B
Not even from Caiaphas. From Nicodemus, actually. Right, okay. So then we're with Atticus questioning Kaphne, and he says that Coffney and his people are like zealots, except they don't actually know what they're doing. They don't really have a plan. They're not coordinated. They're not being smart. They're being totally reckless. So they talk about what happened to Rhema, where they're placing the blame on that. Atticus is kind of playing dumb with some of these questions. In some ways, I think Atticus is sort of piecing together, like, oh, okay, I know about what happened, but I didn't know that that was you. But he kind of acts like he doesn't even know what's going on. But then Atticus says that Coffney should keep at what he's doing to protect himself from crucifixion. He doesn't actually say that, but he alludes to it. And coffee, I think, doesn't even get it. Maybe he does eventually, but. Yeah. And by the way, in the scene, Atticus is not eating, but he is drinking. I think he poured himself, like, four cups throughout the course of this scene. So, you know Atticus is being Atticus.
- [24:01]
A
Absolutely, he does. I thought the scene was really interesting. I didn't have a problem with it. I didn't. It's one of those unnecessary scenes that's really great that it's there to tie a few pieces together. I am interested in how they're using Coffney in his little band and Atticus. I think I said that in the last episode. I'm not just interested. I found it pleasing in an entertaining way, how they're using. I just thought this scene was really interesting. The banter back and forth about fathers and how Atticus finds what he's doing deplorable and how he's making this about him. And I just found that back and forth very, very interesting. Just as a viewer of the episode. Just really, really enjoyed it. I have that phrase in here where he says, I need you to go spread your. After all of that, he basically says, I need you to keep doing what you're doing. I need you to go spread your venom. I thought that was interesting. Only one person acting up here happens to be Jesus. Yeah. Just a really interesting conversation and enjoying how that character. How those characters are being employed.
- [25:03]
B
Yeah. So then we're with Mary walking through the street. She sees a Roman soldier kind of Stops her in her tracks. We don't quite have a flashback, but, you know, she kind of goes off into the corner, quotes Isaiah 9. Kind of brings herself back to a better place. So a lot of strength in Mary that wasn't necessarily there in the past. So we're seeing some additional growth for her even in this season, even in all the other stuff that's going on.
- [25:30]
A
Yeah, I've noticed that, too. Similar to Peter. And again, I mean, I'm no expert in screenwriting and stuff, but it's just easy to make something where that stuff is not there. But these characters really have. I don't know if that's on the actor's part, if it's the screenwriting or it's the directing or a combination of all the above. But some of these characters have really developed in a very humane, humanly. What am I trying to say? A way that I could see and I could expect and I could appreciate. It seems right.
- [26:00]
B
Relatable, maybe.
- [26:01]
A
Relatable. There's the word I'm looking for. Thanks. Print. Billing's always in the clutch, so there you go. That's what I thought about that when you said that about Mary. Like, yes, she's one of those. Peter is another one, and I like it.
- [26:11]
B
So then we're back with Caiaphas in his house. Malchus is barking at servants, getting them to clean for Passover. I mean, in some ways, it's like, this is the house of the high priest. So I guess you gotta kind of take things seriously. But I also wonder, like, would he have been like. I didn't really get, like, this level of, like, from Malchus before, but, you know, it is Passover. It is the high priest. So.
- [26:37]
A
Yeah. And even. I mean, I take a really hard line on how deep the corruption of the high priest runs. And historically speaking, the evidence shows that they were pretty adamant about especially festivals, especially anything related to the temple and festival and levitical observance. So that fits for me. And it's like, well, how if they're that corrupt, how could they even care about obedience? Because when you're in the middle of those systems, you find a way you have justified in your mind. They don't see themselves as the bad guys. They see themselves as the justified good guys. I really do believe that in the midst of their corruption. So, I mean, they're. They're super committed to Passover, and they're super even though their hearts are sure can be corrupt and wicked. But I actually liked that because it's good for me I have a tendency to put them in a box of. Oh, they're the bad guys. They. They didn't even do anything. No, they had convinced themselves they were. They were obedient. So I liked that reminder for me.
- [27:34]
B
Yeah. So then Pilate bursts in, and he's like, caiaphas, what are you doing with Jesus? Pilate calls him. Calls Jesus rather a zealot. And Caiaphas is like, great, everybody hates zealots. That's the best scenario, right? And they both express that they kind of want to lower the temperature about all this stuff. They don't want anything to get out of control. Caiaphas is kind of offended. The pilot's been spying on him with all this stuff. Pilot just kind of. He kind of kicks into a different gear here. He's like, caiaphas, you are way too comfortable with this position. I get made fun of by our philosophers, our. Our people back in Rome, because, you know, we came in here and conquered you, and you're the conquered, and you're telling the victors how things are going to be. And if this whole thing goes south in any way, like we're calling this whole thing. I don't even know if Pilot has the authority to do that, but Pilate threatens him. And I think Caiaphas kind of gets it, is what it seems like, because he kind of just shuts up at that point and he's like, I gotta be careful with what I say here because I'm trying to keep this whole thing under control. But if I get a little bit too whatever about it, then I'm gonna blow it up on the other side. So I think Caiaphas is realizing, like, oh, Pilot. Pilot's serious now.
- [28:52]
A
Yeah. And we know the backstory of Pilate having been. I wouldn't say roughed up, but had his collar grabbed by Atticus and kind of chewed out. So we know Pilate's backstory. So, like, it's that same. He appears rough on the outside, that bulldog image we talked about in the last episode. But we kind of know, and I wonder sometimes if Caiaphas kind of knows. Like, eh, you're kind of all smoke and mirrors. There's Justin up there to hold the tension kind of in Perfect Bay. And I'm interested to see what they do with the next two episodes, because I definitely feel like Caiaphas knows he has the upper hand and Pilot's cornered. But in this scene, Pilate's trying to make a strong. Definitely trying to save face. Definitely trying to push Caiaphas around. So we'll see what happens in the next couple episodes and how they depict it.
- [29:36]
B
Yep. And then we are back with Coffhni kind of making a show of Atticus and the soldiers leaving. And Z follows the soldiers as they go. Atticus takes two swords from a couple of his soldiers and sends the soldiers onward, and Z continues to follow Atticus. But then we go back to Coffney and they move back into the house. A whole bunch of text here. Cophney goes into Psalm 84. One of his guys goes into Psalm 34. Coffee's like, this is great. God has anointed our cause. Goes into Jeremiah 32. And then they all do job 42 in unison. And then Naomi comes in and she's like, coffney, what in the world are you doing? You're making a deal with our enemies and you think that's God's anointing? What are you thinking? And she is packing up and she's getting ready to leave, and she's like, I cannot watch what hate and guilt have turned you into.
- [30:30]
A
Yeah, I thought it was an interesting spin. What they've done with this storyline is they've turned. This hatred isn't driven by ideology. There's plenty of that in the Chosen and plenty of that in history. In this case, the hatred is driven by personal animosity. It's the story of rhema, which I really like, because it. It brings all the pieces into this chosen narrative. There's our ideologies that can push us into dark places. There's our personal vendettas that can push us into dark places. I thought that was an interesting spin. I was watching this episode, and my wife did something that I write about in my upcoming book here this spring. I hate it when she does this. My wife has a tendency of seeing something coming, and I'll see if she's right. She is 90% of the time right about everything. She leaned over to me and she's like, copney's gonna be the thief on the cross. And I was like, oh, you dirty rat.
- [31:22]
B
You think so?
- [31:23]
A
So she thinks, we'll see if she's right.
- [31:25]
B
Okay.
- [31:25]
A
And she doesn't know which one, though. Is it gonna be the one that's hurling insults at Jesus the whole time, or is it gonna be the one that wants anyway? And I'm like, ah, man, if he's on the cross, I'd be so angry at you. Be so angry at you. My wife does this to me all the time. She'll see something coming, like three Seasons away. And she's like this. And I'm like, what?
- [31:42]
B
No.
- [31:43]
A
Then she ends up being. Right.
- [31:45]
B
Well, yeah. Well, okay, all right, we'll see. We'll see what happens there.
- [31:48]
A
I mean, he's not really the zealot. Zealot. Like an ideological zealot. But I mean, sure, Atticus is definitely setting him up. Like, he definitely wants him to, you know, whatever.
- [31:58]
B
I'm like, I could see it.
- [32:00]
A
That's going to be an easy turn if that's what they do.
- [32:02]
B
Yep. Okay, well, then we're back with Z following Atticus into what turns out to be a prison. Atticus asks him to talk, and Z says that he knows Atticus was up to something with Kafni. Like, you're not making mistakes like that. And Atticus is there in the jail at this point to question a zealot, and turns out it's Z's former colleague. He's the one from the, like, encampment where he's like, we're going back here. And Z's like, no, I'm following Jesus now. And then Z identifies him as Barabbas.
- [32:34]
A
Zing.
- [32:35]
B
We got that element at play now. But Z is just talking about, like, look, no jail can contain the Messiah. And Atticus is like, well, sure, but what about all your friends? Atticus drops the two swords. He says, you know, in case you think you need these to be ready. And Z picks up the swords. But there was also a dagger that Z doesn't pick up, and I assume that's the dagger that he threw into the river when Atticus was watching him initially go to meet Jesus.
- [33:05]
A
Well, I got the impression I could be confused as well. I got the impression it was a vision, like the blood on the walls, or as he picks up the sword, he sees his own dagger that he's left behind. But now it's back as he picks up the sword.
- [33:18]
B
Oh, sure.
- [33:18]
A
But it was hard to tell because it looks like it definitely is from the eye. A literal dagger lying on the ground. Yeah, but I couldn't get a good shot as he walks away.
- [33:28]
B
Am I remembering that scene correctly? Where? Was it him or does Jesus. No, Z throws it. I think somebody throws it into the river. But, like, Atticus is, like, just down the way behind a tree watching the whole thing play out. Right?
- [33:43]
A
Yeah, you're right. And he picks it up, right? He goes in and picks it. It's Jesus that tosses it in the water. And then I think you're right, Atticus. I think there's a scene where Atticus.
- [33:51]
B
Actually, do we see Atticus pick it up?
- [33:53]
A
I thought so. Now that you say that, this is.
- [33:55]
B
Stretching my memory all the way back to season one, but yeah, I know. Well, maybe I'll. I'll do a little follow up. I'll see if I can find that scene.
- [34:02]
A
Okay, well, we'll see. Yep, very interesting.
- [34:06]
B
So then we are back with Nicodemus. He's in his study room. He's got all the papers out. He's talking Isaiah 60:1 and then Luke 4, which is where Jesus reads that portion. He's like, today's scripture is fulfilled. Okay. John 10, I and the Father are one. Okay. Isaiah 53, despised and rejected. Somebody's knocking at this point, Nicodemus is ignoring it.
- [34:27]
A
Yeah, like three times knocking. Yeah, yeah.
- [34:30]
B
So then he's like, okay, Matthew 5 comes in. He's like, oh, I didn't come to abolish, but to fulfill. Nicodemus is getting really excited. And then Yusuf barges in and explains that there's these plans to arrest Jesus. And Nicodemus is like, oh, well, whatever. Caiaphas, he doesn't even have the authority to do that. And Yusuf's like, well, there's maybe a traitor going on here. And Nicodemus is like, well, it doesn't even matter. It's too late for a trial. The holiday's here. You know, maybe Annas is behind it all. So there's that, like, element of corruption going on here. And Yusuf wants Nicodemus to join him and Shimon and the centrists is what he says against Caiaphas. And Nicodemus makes a comment about how Jesus is only a threat to the corrupt leadership, not to all of Israel. And Yusuf is like, you know, I think you're being too hard on them. Like, they love God and Torah. They just weren't ready for Jesus. We weren't ready for Jesus. And then Nicodemus is like, look, the die has been cast. I can't do anything. If we try to do anything with Jesus, they're just going to shut us out. We're not going to have any voice in the matter at all. And Yusuf is like, okay, well, I'll defer to your wisdom on that. And Nicodemus is like, all the study that I've done has only revealed more mysteries. Like, I can't figure out what's going to happen. And they agree. They should just be there and they'll find out themselves.
- [35:53]
A
Yep, like that. I like that scene. I'm a big fan of Nicodemus. So luckily, history is Going to help me be a big fan of Nicodemus by the time this is over with, and Yousef, for that matter. But, yeah, I appreciate it. And all the things he talked about. Totally Right. And true. I think Yusuf mentions a loophole in the. Essentially the midrash and the oral tradition. But all those laws about trials at night and all that stuff, security of the people, all the. All those things were spot on. So, yeah, really appreciated the banter and how they're pulling Yusuf and Nicodemus together.
- [36:29]
B
It's like, well, we're not going to use the loophole, even though we recognize that it's there. But the corrupt side of it is like, no, we're going to use the loophole. We're going to use the loophole whenever we want.
- [36:38]
A
Yeah, Right.
- [36:38]
B
We're all about the loophole. We live in the loophole.
- [36:40]
A
Yeah. Right.
- [36:41]
B
So, yeah. And then that's the end of that episode.
- [36:43]
A
It's the end of the episode. Pretty good.
- [36:45]
B
This was paired with the final two episodes in the theater. And the final two episodes are titled together, so they're, you know, a little more. I mean, obviously the whole season is tied together, but, you know, the two are titled the same. And then this one was paired with the last two in the theater. So I did not have to wait at this point to find out what happened next, which is great.
- [37:06]
A
Oh, goodness. But we do. But we do.
- [37:09]
B
Have you watched the last two episodes yet?
- [37:12]
A
Have. Not yet.
- [37:12]
B
Okay, well, we'll be back as far as listeners are concerned in one week and you'll hear what we've discovered.
- [37:20]
A
That's right.
- [37:20]
B
You can go to BAM on a subset.com if you need to find out anything about our show, if you want to get in touch with us, if you want to support us. Thank you to everyone who supports. The work that we do enables us to dig into the text together and consider all the things that God is doing, get some new perspectives on what is happening in the Gospels, all those things. Like, we're wrestling through this stuff together. So we appreciate you guys enabling us to do that. So thanks for joining us on the Bayma Podcast today. We'll talk to you again soon.