482: The Chosen S5E8 — “The Upper Room, Part 2” (Bonus Episode)

Summary

The BEMA Podcast

Episode 482: The Chosen S5E8 — “The Upper Room, Part 2” (Bonus Episode)
Release Date: November 3, 2025
Hosts: Marty Solomon & Brent Billings

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Episode Overview

In this bonus episode, Brent and Marty discuss the dramatic season five finale of The Chosen, focusing on the events leading up to and including Jesus’ time in the garden of Gethsemane and his betrayal by Judas. The hosts analyze the show’s creative choices, the biblical and historical context, and their emotional resonance, highlighting both the textual accuracy and the imaginative elements. Notably, they dissect Thaddeus’ calling, Jesus’ garden prayers, and the powerful depiction of Judas’ betrayal, all while reflecting on the challenges of visually portraying such a pivotal scriptural narrative.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Structure & Opening Reflections (00:00–01:10)

• Part Two Context: The episode is a direct continuation, diving back into the story after the first part of “The Upper Room.”

  • “It’s a good thing that this is a part two, because my compulsive need for consistency would have said we are not starting in the upper room on this episode. But it’s a part two, so I’m totally good with it.” — Marty (00:36)

• Cinematic Touch: Noted shift in aspect ratio, signaling we’re transitioning from confined, intimate scenes to the wider drama unfolding.

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2. Thaddeus' Flashback and the Calling of the Disciples (01:05–09:39)

• Thaddeus’ Backstory: The episode opens with Thaddeus reflecting on his initial encounter with Jesus at a worksite in Bethsaida.

  • Jesus is depicted singing Psalm 39, sparking an unexpected and somewhat awkward invitation to follow him.
  • Discussion of impermanence and legacy: “A couple of those are going to last… a lot of it, you know, succumbs to war and time and weather.” — Jesus (02:16)

• Jesus’ Compelling Monologue:

  • The monologue is powerfully portrayed, detailing the cost and reward of following Jesus—emphasizing not material gain, but belonging, challenge, and purpose.
  • Quote Highlight:
    • “There is no pay, at least not in the earthly sense. I’m a rabbi and I’m asking you to follow me. It was nice meeting you. You’d be part of changing the world, become part of a family, not of relatives. But the blood bonds just the same…” — Jesus (04:40)
    • “The point is that you will have said yes to the world’s no. That you hoped against hope and believed against belief. That you surrendered everything and held fast to the very end. Will you follow?” — Jesus (05:28)
  • Marty’s Emotional Response:
    • “It was the best description of every... just so emotionally drawn in. I loved that monologue.” (03:14)
    • “It’s season one, Mary throwing Sabbath at her house. Like, yeah, it’s that level of monologue for me.” (08:35)

• Thaddeus as Everyman:

  • The dialogue captures everyday reluctance, insecurity, and the unexpected possibilities of discipleship. Brent notes, “That’s us, I think, all too often.” (09:17)

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3. Upper Room Transition & Disciple Dynamics (09:39–12:28)

• Practicalities and Humor:

  • The disciples’ banter about seating arrangements and Thaddeus’ tardiness brings a sense of realism and camaraderie.
  • Lighthearted quips about taking the “longest route possible,” and speculation about the geography of Jerusalem.

• Preparation for Betrayal:

  • Mark’s role as an observer is highlighted as the disciples finish the meal and sing Psalm 118—Emphasis is placed on the authenticity of these ritual moments.

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4. Roman & Sanhedrin Politics (13:26–17:32)

• Pilate and Atticus:

  • Pilate’s unease with Jesus’ growing influence, Atticus’ manipulation of local anger, and their allegiances are explored.
  • Atticus claims, “I am loyal to Rome herself, and you should do the same.” (14:25)
  • The hosts draw parallels to modern patriotism and the complexities of Roman authority.

• Claudia’s Ominous Presence:

  • Her prophetic dreams and warnings underscore her ambiguous but weighty influence: “She just has this ominous way about entering a scene and laying down the hammer and walking out.” — Marty (16:07)

• Sanhedrin Discontent:

  • The meeting features intense debate among Jewish leadership, accurately reflecting the legal and ritual improprieties of their actions on a festival night.

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5. Betrayal Plot Unfolds (17:32–18:22)

• Judas and the Temple Guard:

  • Marty praises the accurate use of temple—not Roman—guards, a detail often missed in adaptations.

• Judas' Motives:

  • The complexities around identifying Jesus and the necessity of a formal accuser are discussed: “It’s not an identity thing as much as an accusation thing, a legal thing.” — Marty (28:27)

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6. Prayers in the Olive Grove (18:22–25:54)

• Emotional Intensity:

  • Jesus’ anguish is depicted with nuance, with disciples misunderstanding his turmoil and wanting to “get a doctor.”
  • The show creatively weaves elements from Synoptic Gospels and John, integrating “Lord’s Prayer” language and deepening the sense of struggle.

• Visions and Spiritual Comfort:

  • Jesus experiences visionary encounters with Abraham & Isaac (the “angel” reference in Luke), Ezekiel in the valley of dry bones, and his own father Joseph.
  • Marty’s Take: The ambiguity around angels is fitting; “This is the same kind of experience I could envision having. If God wanted to encourage me in a moment where I would think of and go back to key moments of my own life and key people and mentors, I just liked it.” (20:58)

• Filmic Touches:

  • A fog transitions Jesus into the vision of Ezekiel’s valley, creating a visually arresting and theologically layered scene.

• Memorable Shot:

  • Jesus returns to find his disciples depicted as children (“What a shot. It got me every time, just weeping.” — Brent, 24:15), reinforcing his compassion and their vulnerability.

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7. The Betrayal Scene (25:00–30:06)

• The Approach:

  • Jesus’ statement—“The Son of Man’s going to be delivered into the hand of sinners. [...] Sinners.”—is ambiguous, prompting discussion about how to interpret Jesus’ tone and intent.
  • Intention behind the dialogue is noted as an open question: "He could be saying... delivered into the hands of sinners, sinners, like who isn't?"

• Judas’ Signal:

  • High tension as Judas hesitates, and the necessity of his betrayal is portrayed as a legal formality more than simple identification.

• “Friend” Not “Traitor:”

  • Brent highlights the humanity and compassion of Matthew 26’s wording, “he still calls him his friend” (27:41), contrasting the harsher versions in other Gospels.

• Episode Climax:

  • The scene closes powerfully on a close-up of Judas’ kiss, followed by credits set to “Flee as a Bird,” a hymn based on Psalm 11—symbolizing the disciples’ imminent flight.

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8. Reflections on The Season & Episode (30:06–33:46)

• Artistic Achievement:
  • Both hosts commend the episode’s restraint and emotional impact, especially given the difficulty of dramatizing such a pivotal biblical event:
    • “There are so many ways that could have went sideways, went wrong, not had enough umph. Had too much umph. Been too sensationalized. I’m really impressed... it just was done so well that I just have no complaints by the time it was done.” — Marty (31:10)
  • Attention is drawn to the careful selection and omission of lines, avoiding the pitfall of over-literal harmonization.

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9. Lighthearted Moments: Bloopers (33:51–35:07)

• Bloopers and Humor:
  • Brent prompts Marty to check out the post-credits blooper reel, featuring playful moments on set (e.g., a “Jesus juke” and a sassy retort from Jesus to James).
  • “You know the things that Jesus probably wanted to say in his humanity every day.” — Marty (35:03)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On the call to discipleship:

  • “The point is that you will have said yes to the world’s no. That you hoped against hope and believed against belief.” — Jesus (05:28)

• On portraying Jesus’ final prayers:

  • “This whole episode, this last episode of season five, there are so many ways that could have went sideways... I just have no complaints by the time it was done.” — Marty (31:10)

• On the humanity of the disciples:

  • “[Thaddeus] convinced himself so much that he doesn’t have anything else to offer... and that’s us, I think, all too often.” — Brent (09:17)

• On the ambiguity of “sinners”:

  • “He could be saying, like, emphasizing, like, sinners, like this. Frustrated. They’re in rebellion. They’re. They’re acting in sin right now. I almost heard, like, a tone of, like, questioning, like, delivered. Like, he’s quoting this idea. Delivered into the hands of sinners. Like, sinners. Like, who isn’t?” — Marty (25:00)

• On the challenge of harmonizing the Gospels:

  • “The synoptics, the gospels in general... they don’t make it easy to line everything up. [...] But the fact that they chose to put the line in, that they did, leaning into the humanity of everything going on here... I just really appreciate stuff like that.” — Brent (33:10)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:00 – Opening & episode context
• 01:05 – Thaddeus' flashback and Jesus' monologue
• 09:39 – Upper room transition; disciples' interaction
• 13:26 – Pilate & Atticus; Roman-Sanhedrin tension
• 17:32 – Judas & Temple guard plan
• 18:22 – Gethsemane: prayer, visions, and disciples sleeping
• 22:59 – Valley of dry bones scene with Ezekiel
• 24:13 – Disciples depicted as children
• 25:00 – Jesus on being "delivered to sinners"
• 27:41 – Judas’ betrayal and the “friend” line
• 30:06 – Episode & season reflection
• 33:51 – Bloopers & final laughs

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Closing Thoughts

Brent and Marty emphasize the episode’s thoughtful engagement with history, text, and creative storytelling. They praise The Chosen team for their nuanced portrayal of difficult Gospel material, especially the blending of authenticity and emotional resonance. Listeners are encouraged to tune in to the upcoming episode featuring The Chosen creator Dallas Jenkins, where further insights and behind-the-scenes questions will be explored.

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Next episode: An interview with Dallas Jenkins, answering listener and host questions about the creative process and narrative decisions behind The Chosen, Season 5.

Transcript

[Brent Billings]

Foreign. This is the Baymaw podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we bring our analysis of season five of the Chosen to a close with the discussion of the eighth episode.

[Marty Solomon]

This is it for season five. You got any preliminary stuff before we blow a horn?

[Brent Billings]

Just a note again that this is a part two of the episode. So we don't. We don't actually begin with an upper room scene because we're. We're all kind of like moving forward in time, I guess. I don't know.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Brent Billings]

So. Yep. Spoiler.

[Marty Solomon]

Horn away. Well, Brent, it's a good thing that this is a part two, because my compulsive need for consistency would have said we are not starting in the upper room on this episode. But it's a part two, so I'm totally good with it.

[Brent Billings]

We're starting with Thaddeus heading to the upper room.

[Marty Solomon]

That's a good point. Okay. Yeah, I guess that would work. Okay, good. You just resolved that from my mind. Wonderful.

[Brent Billings]

But I mean, for me, the key thing is that we are not in that 1.66 to 1 aspect ratio that we've been doing for these Last Supper scenes. We're in the wide 2.391, so whatever. But Thaddeus is walking. He sees some tools hanging from a shop or whatever. And then he flashes back to meeting Jesus on a work site. They are in Bethsaida, and Jesus is singing Psalm 39. And Thaddeus is like, oh, you're not the guy I expected to be here. And he's like, yeah, let's have lunch. So they're talking. Thaddeus says that he's from Capernaum, and Jesus is like, yeah, I'm from all over, all this stuff, Egypt, blah, blah, blah. And Thaddeus is like, man. But you get to say that you lived in Egypt. Like, man, the architecture there's got to be pretty crazy. And, you know, it feels real. God goggles. At first, Jesus is like, yeah, a couple of those are going to last. He's like, what? But then Jesus turns around. He's like, look at all these stories that we have in the past and where is all that stuff? So it's like, yeah, some of this stuff's going to be here, but a lot of it, you know, succumbs to war and time.

[Marty Solomon]

And what was.

[Brent Billings]

He said three things. He said war and time and weather. Weather.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. So, yeah, that was, you know, a little. A little. A little bit for us. A little bit for. Yeah, yeah, it was fine.

[Marty Solomon]

Walking that line. I love it. Threading that needle.

[Brent Billings]

So Jesus is making Thaddeus kind of laugh with all of his kind of crazy ideas. He doesn't really know him. He's like, yeah, but I'm also this rabbi. I'm going to build this kingdom. And Thaddeus starts to get real uncomfortable about this whole thing. He's like, yeah, I don't know. He's trying to walk away. And Jesus is kind of pleading with him in a way that we see all these flash forward scenes from where they are at this point where we get to know what all these scenes are. So it works really well for us as an audience to know what Jesus is talking about. But he's like, yeah, all these things. Not really the best sales pitch. But it ends with this hope against hope. And Thaddeus ultimately decides, yeah, sure, I'll go with it.

[Marty Solomon]

It's one of the finest parts of the entire thing. All of the chosen seasons. It'll be a top five scene for me. That monologue from Jesus is so good. I mean, it's delivered well, but that was well written. I actually want to find. I bet you can probably help me with this. I want to find like a transcript so that I can somehow print. I want to memorize that monologue. Not because I'm giving it the same, like, what am I trying to say? Gravity as text, but in the same way we would memorize a movie quote or a favorite poem. Like, that monologue was so good. It wasn't a great sales pitch. And it was like, it was like the best. It was the best description of every. And it just kept going. And I'm like, oh, just so emotionally drawn in. I loved that monologue. And yeah, hope against hope and saying. What was it? Yes to the world's nos. And I was like, yep. Oh, that line and the delivery and yes, the way that they flashed forward, kind of flashback, flash forward, whatever you want to call that. Golly, just so well written.

[Jesus]

I'm getting back to work. I have wages to collect for my labor. Leave with me tonight. Final offer. You haven't made an offer. A new kingdom, eternal value.

[Brent Billings]

What's the pay?

[Marty Solomon]

The pay?

[Brent Billings]

Yes.

[Jesus]

The income, the daily rate, housing arrangements.

[Brent Billings]

What you have that all worked out.

[Jesus]

There is no pay, at least not in the earthly sense. I'm a rabbi and I'm asking you to follow me. It was nice meeting you. You'd be part of changing the world, become part of a family, not of relatives. But the blood bonds just the same. Spend your days with Some of the most interesting, unfettered, funny, driven, brave, nurturing.

[Marty Solomon]

Smart.

[Jesus]

Strong, passionate, fiery, loyal, loving, imperfect people to ever walk the earth. You will see and do things you cannot imagine. You will be adored, hated, needed, lost and found. You will live everywhere and nowhere. You will lose friends. You will lose all your friends and your own life. You will go to the ends of the earth and yet be part of the beginning of the greatest movement on earth. People will say you were a fool and that I was a fool and that it was all a lie. They'll call us heretics and liars and frauds. Others will celebrate and venerate your memory and call you a saint. But none of that's the point. The point is that you will have said yes to the world's no. That you hoped against hope and believed against belief. That you surrendered everything and held fast to the very end. Will you follow?

[Marty Solomon]

Such great dialogue. That monologue. Excuse me. So good. I will make a point of saying that to Dallas in our next interview with him tomorrow. But golly, what a great. So good.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. And I think we got with some of the other disciples, and they're calling, like, they more or less dropped everything to go follow Jesus. Some of it at the urging of, you know, like, Zebedee. Like, no, you. Like, you guys gotta go. And this one, I think, more pushback than we've assumed historically. I don't know. Thaddeus, like you were saying last episode. We don't know much about Thaddeus and the idea that somebody would just show up at his work site and say, you're going to do all these things. Like, yeah, I mean, if he's. I don't know.

[Marty Solomon]

It was such a great way to use him. And maybe there's other tradition that we mentioned last episode. Maybe there's more tradition. I don't know about Thaddeus, but it was just such a great way to use his character and his backstory to do this. It's top three scenes in the whole thing. Like, it's. It's season one. Mary throwing Sabbath at her house. Like, yeah, it's that level of monologue for me, I was just like, yeah, I'm almost out of my couch as I'm watching it. Like, Notre Dame halftime pep talk. Like, that's like. I'm like, yeah. Whoa.

[Brent Billings]

I think this is a great way to do it because, like, sure, he's from Capernaum. He's probably going to be around some rabbis.

[Marty Solomon]

Sure.

[Brent Billings]

But he's convinced himself so much that he doesn't have anything else to offer that he's just going to be this builder guy. So to have that perspective of like A, who are you? B, what are you talking about? And C, no way. Like I can't offer anything here. And that's us, I think, all too often.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. Oh, geez. So good. So good.

[Brent Billings]

So then we are in the upper room and Thomas notices John at Jesus right hand. He's like, james, are you sure you don't want to go over on the other side? And he's like, nah, I'm good. I'm good next to you. And then the disciples are discussing what might happen.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. Thaddeus comes in and they, they basically like, man, he said to take a different route. You don't have to take like the longest route possible.

[Brent Billings]

Well, and especially thinking about like, we don't know actually where the original Phoebe's house. We don't know exactly where Phoebe's house is, but even anywhere in the Essene quarter, I don't think you're more than a five minute walk from.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, sure.

[Brent Billings]

From these two locations. So. Yep, he, he really, he really worked the system there. He's like, I was the last one to leave, guys. Give me a break.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep.

[Brent Billings]

But they're discussing what might happen. And then Mark brings Jesus in and the disciples stand. And that takes us into the credits. So then coming out of there we are apparently at the end of the meal, the disciples are singing Psalm 118. I don't know if that is traditionally the close of a Seder meal, but Mark is lying in his bed in the floor below and is listening. And then they all kind of get up and start to move. And so Mark like jumps up. And then there's the talk about the two swords. And Z wants to know if he gets one of them. And Peter's like, you're already a weapon. You don't need a sword.

[Marty Solomon]

Right.

[Brent Billings]

That whole little conversation set of Luke 22. And then John shares the info about Judas with Peter after everyone else leaves. And then. I don't know why I've never thought about this before, Marty. But Jesus leads them to the Olive Garden. They say it's an olive grove, but then they refer to it as a garden. And so it's just. It's the Olive Garden.

[Marty Solomon]

It's the Olive Garden.

[Brent Billings]

Gut sticks, baby.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay, I was like a little. I was like, what are you trying to say, Brent? Now I get it. Got it.

[Brent Billings]

Sure.

[Marty Solomon]

Totally. Well, it's just funny because if anybody's ever been to Jerusalem, Old City and You're outside in the valley. There's a few different places that will be associated with the Garden of Gethsemane. One of them, one property that we use that we go to. It actually kind of reminded me. The entrance to this kind of reminded me to the entrance. It's still there today. Yeah. Yeah. Not that it's an ancient. It's not an ancient entrance, but it just made me like. I just kind of chuckled and smiled and what they haven't done in this. And anybody that's gone with me or studied with me or. I think we talked about it some in session three, people know that I don't think they're staying at, like, a Phoebe's house. I think they're staying at an olive press that's probably located right next to an olive grove. So it's a different. That part's kind of a different setting. They have to go out to where, for me, I think they're just going back to where they're lodging and everybody else is going to bed. And Jesus happens to be staying up for Lyle Shimerim. They don't make any Lyle Shimmerim connections necessarily in this scene, but those are some of the differences of what I see going on. Because I think they're staying in a Geth Sheminim because. Just means olive press. And we're told that they go through a garden. So it would make sense that there's an olive grove, a garden in which there's going to be an olive press for the olive harvest. But there is no, in the text, a garden of Gethsemane. So that's how they're just pulling those details together in slightly different ways. But. But it's all there.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. So Jesus asks Peter, James and John to join him inside, everybody else to stay at the entrance. And then we jump over to Pilate asking Atticus about what he has going on. And Pilate has been spying on him and talks about how Jesus is plaguing every area of his life. And then Atticus is ruining the holiday with all the stuff he's doing with Coffney. And Atticus is like, well, coffee is kind of chaotic, but we can use them. We can redirect their anger away from the Romans and to the religious authorities and whatever, specifically to Jesus as well. And most of them are going to reject what they're doing, but Pilate can twist this whole thing and make Rome look like the good guys in the end. And Pilate is like, yeah, I don't know about that. Like, Jesus is bringing Some kind of a reckoning with this whole thing. And. And then Atticus is like, well, look, you know, I am loyal to Rome herself, and you should do the same.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, that's. Again, I just kind of like that interaction between Atticus and Pilate as a display of kind of some of the tensions in Roman power. I thought it was interesting that Jesus, for them, I think it was Atticus says, jesus will bring. There will be a reckoning with Jesus. At some point, they start talking about a her. Like, I thought it was really interesting. Atticus is like, I'm really not even loyal to the Emperor. I'm like, what?

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

And then he's like, I'm loyal to her. I'm loyal to Rome, Roma. And I thought, okay, that's a really. There's a lot of interesting truth to all of that and a great way to depict that. Again, sociopolitical Roman tension, that is all behind this historically.

[Brent Billings]

That makes sense to me from a modern perspective because I've always thought of patriotism as allegiance to an ideal and not necessarily a specific leader. So that feels very like, oh, if you're going to be that sort of Western, whatever. That totally fits with my idea of. I think I would be like Atticus.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, sure. And that wasn't necessarily the Roman way, like the system, the emperor, they definitely demanded that allegiance. But to depict somebody with that kind of perspective in a position like Atticus's, I was like, yeah, I could. I could see somebody making those distinctions.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. So then Claudia comes out and asks Pilate why he's hiding some information from Atticus, not sharing the whole story. And she thinks Pilot is setting himself up to lose in this whole situation. She's plagued by her dreams. And he's like, what are the dreams? And she's like, I think you're just gonna see the dreams here in short order.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep. I love her ominous. She just has this ominous way about entering a scene and laying down the hammer and walking out.

[Brent Billings]

Yep, Yep. So Caiaphas has called a meeting and everybody's arguing about what's going on. Caiaphas ends up shouting, everybody down. And then, right as everybody gets calm, Nicodemus Burson confronts Caiaphas a little bit about what's going on, and that's kind of the last that we get to see of that situation for now. Yep.

[Marty Solomon]

I mean, they've definitely. So there would be historical, scholarly debate about the whole. Is it one Sanhedrin? Is there a formal and an informal Sanhedrin? Is there a corrupt mini Sanhedrin? They've decided to just kind of depict the Sanhedrin as a unit. Probably really a really great decision, especially as filmmakers, for a lot of good reasons. But they have to, if that's the case, they have to depict this uproar because they should not be there at night. They should not be there on a festival, on the evening of a festival. They're breaking all kinds of laws and tradition, and they found a way to thread that needle for them. If this was the corruption, kind of like informal mini Sanhedrin that would have met at Caiaphas's house, then they don't have that problem because they're corrupt. Anyway. They're meeting there. But if they're going to have the big Sanhedrin, you got to have people pretty upset that they've called a meeting.

[Brent Billings]

So then we have Malus kind of waiting around. He hears a knock, answers the door to Judas. They go out and find the temple guard. And then Malchus asks, how are you going to. How are you going to point out who Jesus is? Which still, I mean, it's just. Yeah. Just knowing how close they've been this whole time, it's just so crazy. How do you not know? How do you not know what it looks like?

[Marty Solomon]

But, yeah, yeah, I get that. I did appreciate that it's a temple guard. Like, I spent most of my time in Bible college and most of my training with people arguing that all of these are Roman guards. They're Roman soldiers. And having to explain how Rome is helping this Jewish entity out with Roman soldiers. So every time that they've depicted the temple guard on behalf of the Sanhedrin, I smile and I thank chosen in my heart. I'm like, yay, thank you for doing that.

[Brent Billings]

And then we are back among the olives. Jesus is very troubled. The disciples are confused with what's going on. They're trying to convince Jesus that they should go get a doctor. Jesus is sharing some stuff from Matthew 26, Mark 14 here, tells them that they should keep watch, stay near him. The best thing that they can do to help is just by trusting him. Then Jesus goes in, finds a nice stone to lean on, and more stuff from Matthew 26 Mark 14. We got some Luke 22 coming in here. That's all the places where this. Maybe a little bit of John 17. I feel like it's not really any direct quotes, but I feel like there's a little bit of John 17 flavor in some of this. And then Jesus has this vision of Abraham and Isaac, and there's this line in Luke 22, that an angel appears and ministers to him. And apparently that line, as well as the line about sweating blood, both of those lines are apparently not in the earliest manuscripts of Luke. So they are not attested in the other synoptics, but whatever.

[Marty Solomon]

I don't know.

[Brent Billings]

But I'm just like, is this the. Is Abraham and Isaac, are they the angels? But then later on we have Joseph, his father.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, right.

[Brent Billings]

And maybe that's supposed to be the angel figure. I don't know.

[Marty Solomon]

I had the same thought when it was happening. And honestly, I think we get. Or at least I have a hard time with the whole angel motif. And in the Hebrew scriptures, the angel motif is so vague and ambiguous and convoluted. It's like, is it God, Is it a man? Is it an angel? That I'm completely good. Like, I had the same thought, is this the angel? These moments that he's having with these characters and these visions, is this the angelic ministering? And I'm like, yeah, I could, I actually kind of liked it. I was like, yes, this is actually maybe more believable than this abstract angel figure, this supernatural figurine that enters the story and like pats Jesus on the shoulder and kind of gives him a little Power Ranger boost. Like, yeah, I, I thought this was, I was like, okay. I could, this is the same kind of experience I could envision having.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

If God wanted to encourage me in a moment where I would think of and go back to key moments of my own life and keep people and mentors, I just liked it. I made the same connection.

[Brent Billings]

And then Jesus uses that in his prayer, asking to be spared, as Isaac was spared. A lot of Lord's prayer language going on here, which I love. I think, what a great way to use that. And then Jesus returns, finds the disciples sleeping, invokes the Lord's prayer again with them, and he's like, what does it say? Lead me not into temptation. And all the synoptics use that word. So a great connection there to, to tie all that together. Jesus goes back to pray and I don't know. Do you remember watching the scene the first time Jesus goes back to pray after waking up the disciples?

[Marty Solomon]

Uh huh. Yep, I do.

[Brent Billings]

Do you remember what James does?

[Marty Solomon]

Oh, wait, the first time, James.

[Brent Billings]

It's an over the shoulder shot of James watching Jesus turn and walk back into the trees. And it looks like James is starting a slow clap.

[Marty Solomon]

That's. Yes, I remember that. Yeah, right, right.

[Brent Billings]

It tripped me up. And then when I was watching with Maggie, she thought she thought the same thing. And then, you know, it cuts to the reverse shot of James, and he's just, like, smacking himself in the face to try to wake himself up.

[Marty Solomon]

But I was. That's right. That is correct. I was like, I do remember that. Yeah. The angle on the first one did make it seem like he was raising his hands to. And, yeah. And then I remember when the camera spun, I'm like, oh, okay, that's what's going on. I was like, what a weird. But yeah, yeah, yeah. It made sense as soon as the other shot came into view.

[Brent Billings]

So good. So then Jesus is back at his stone, and there's this, like, fog approaching on the ground, which reminded me of the opening to it's season three, episode six. That was the. That, like, dream scene with the snake. So I thought that's what we were. I thought we were, like, going back to whatever that was. But Jesus, like, turns around and notices the fog, walks into it, and then he finds himself in this valley of dry bones. Ezekiel 37.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep.

[Brent Billings]

And then Ezekiel appears there. Jesus addresses him as Ezekiel. Like, there's no question what's going on here. Jesus asks if the bones can live, and he's like, oh, only, you know. And Jesus, like, kind of leans in him, cries on his shoulder. Cool scene.

[Marty Solomon]

I thought, yeah, I really like the dry bones. And when I first saw. I think some of my family was like, oh, what's going on? Is he walking through a valley? I made the connection pretty quickly and thought, oh, this is cool. I realized that what he was doing was Ezekiel 37, but it was a little like, if you didn't make that connection earlier, like, why is he walking through a bunch of skeletons?

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

But I thought it was really well done.

[Brent Billings]

I thought at first that maybe Jesus was walking in in the shoes of Ezekiel, not to meet Ezekiel.

[Marty Solomon]

I had the same question, and I assumed, based on the other flashbacks. Not flashbacks, whatever you want to call those visions, David. I was like, all right. But Ezekiel is going to be standing up here. Yeah. Which I loved. When he walks up and you see him facing the other way, I was like, ah, yes.

[Brent Billings]

So then Jesus finds the disciples sleeping again, but this time he kind of comes down the stairs and looks over at them, and they are depicted as these little. These little children. And I'm.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, what a shot.

[Brent Billings]

It got me every time, just weeping.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, yeah, it was a great shot.

[Brent Billings]

Ironically, perhaps much closer to the age that we would assume they actually would have been. Sure, not so much Peter, but the other two, for sure. Then this is where Jesus goes back to pray again. His forehead is looking particularly sweaty. Doesn't seem like they're portraying it with blood, but very, very sweaty. And then this is where Joseph appears. So then when Jesus goes back out, he gathers the disciples, says, the hour has come. I'm curious what your perspective is on this. He says the Son of Man's going to be delivered into the hand of sinners. And then he emphasizes that again, he's like, sinners. What do you think he's saying there?

[Marty Solomon]

I was hoping you weren't going to ask me about that. And I guess we're free to. It's not the Bible, so we're free to hear it however we want to hear it. I'd love to. Maybe we even get a chance to ask, like, what the. What do they envision with the line and how that's delivered? And I know there's such a dance between writing, directing, and acting. And that shot you end up taking for whatever reason, because I wonder how many times he delivered that and what different tones and. And angles you hear that in. Because he could be saying, like, emphasizing, like, sinners, like this. Frustrated. They're in rebellion. They're. They're acting in sin right now. I almost heard, like, a tone of, like, questioning, like, delivered. Like, he's quoting this idea. Delivered into the hands of sinners. Like, sinners. Like, who isn't? You know what I mean? Like, almost like everything else. I mean, he just has waking up the disciples for the third time.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

Talking about sinners. Like, who's not a sinner? So I don't. I don't know how to hear that line. You could hear it a few different ways, and I don't know. I haven't decided. I'd probably have to watch it a couple more times to get an opinion.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

But, yeah, good question.

[Brent Billings]

I don't have any resolution either, so. Yeah, well, we'll ask Dallas about it. So they exit the garden, and everyone turns and notices the crowd approaching. Coffee's at the back of this crowd. The disciples kind of, like, jump into action a little bit. Jesus calls them off. And Jesus kind of steps forward, approaches the soldiers a little bit, and it's like, again, like Jesus is standing kind of in the front. But I don't know, maybe the way he's dressed is, like, a little less because, like, Jesus is kind of wearing some extra layers in a way that he hasn't been before. So I don't know. Malchus appears, then Judas appears. They kind of come to the front of this detachment. And Malchus looks over at Judas. He's like, come on, man, give us the signal. I think Malchus is kind of looking at it like, I think, I know who it is, but you gave me the signal, so do it. So Judas comes up to Jesus. The disciples are taking this whole thing in. We see Judas's eyes roll back as he goes to step forward. And the disciples, totally in shock at this point. And this, this other line. And this is the Matthew 26 version. But I think I've always. I always think of this moment in the Mark and Luke way where I'm like, oh, you're going to betray me with a kiss? Like, just this really snarky, like, kind of mean. Yeah, but it's right there in Matthew 26. Jesus calls Judas my friend.

[Marty Solomon]

Yes, absolutely.

[Brent Billings]

And to know exactly, like, there's no question what's happening at this point. There's no, like, we're in the moment, and he still calls him his friend.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, absolutely. I've wrestled with the whole. And chosen aside, even in the biblical text, you have to wrestle with this. Like, why do they need Judas to identify Jesus? Like, they obviously know who he is. I have always assumed, and I have not had somebody who has scholastic authority teach me this or back me up on this. But I feel like what's happening is they don't need to know who Jesus is. They need somebody to make the formal accusation. Like, according to Jewish law, somebody has to say, this is the guy. This is who I'm accusing.

[Brent Billings]

I see.

[Marty Solomon]

Which if Judas then runs and throws the money back, somewhat explains why the whole trial falls into chaos. Because Judas was never. I don't think, personally, I don't believe Judas was intending to truly actually betray Jesus all the way to the end. I think he was wanting to provoke Jesus.

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Marty Solomon]

And then when it doesn't happen, Judas freaks out and bails. And now they don't have an accuser, and now their whole case falls apart. It would be like a case in our world all of a sudden losing its key witness or losing the evidence. So that's why the trial in front of the high priest falls into such disarray, because the arrangement they had with Judas falls apart. Now, I am reading into the text a lot of those details, but that's part of how it makes sense to me, is it's not an identity thing as much as an accusation thing, a legal thing. And that's what they need, because they're going to need the accusation and they're going to need somebody to come in behind and. And back them up. So maybe I'm wrong on that, but.

[Brent Billings]

I think that's how they're portraying it.

[Marty Solomon]

I agree.

[Brent Billings]

There's lots of stuff. Judas conversations where he's like, ah, yeah. And then. And then in that moment, he's gonna.

[Marty Solomon]

Like, yeah, it's another one of those needles that they're threading without saying anything super directly and planting a flag. They're threading some needles that give up, give you enough elbow room. That pan, how you want to see it and hear it and read it. Another one of those things that impresses me. But I think in general, as I think back on this scene, this episode, and then this season, I have just a couple comments. Did you have anything else about this scene before?

[Brent Billings]

I. I was just gonna say the. The whole episode ends with an extreme close up of Judas kissing Jesus.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, right, right, absolutely.

[Brent Billings]

And over the credits, I don't know if there's much to this, but it's this hymn from 1840 called Flee as a Bird, but it's Based on Psalm 11.

[Marty Solomon]

Oh, wow. Okay. Who knew?

[Brent Billings]

Which I guess is what. That's what the disciples are about to do. They're about to flee.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. This ended right at the moment. I'm like, are we gonna get Peter cutting off Malka's ear? Like, I kept trying to figure out where that was going to show up. Apparently, apparently next season, if they do.

[Brent Billings]

They got to do it.

[Marty Solomon]

Why.

[Brent Billings]

Why bother to bring Malkus in? This whole time, and I've been trying.

[Marty Solomon]

To tell the kids that John Mark is the dude that, like, when he got up to come with them, he covers himself in the bedsheet. I'm like, yeah, he flees naked. And I'm like, obviously the Chosen isn't going to have him flee naked. The text says he flees naked. He's still dressed in his bed clothes.

[Brent Billings]

As PJs season six, they're moving it over to HBO.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. But anyway, so my kids were like, oh, they wanted to see, like, they. They missed that verse in their New Testament. So they were ready to see, like, John Mark flee. So they're gonna have to wait till season six. But in general, I'll say this. This whole thing, which let me keep my thoughts focused for a moment. The praying in the garden. This whole episode, this last episode of season five, there are so many ways that could have went sideways, went wrong, not had enough umph. Had too much umph. Been too sensationalized. I'm really impressed with. By the time it all came down. I mean, you had the vision of Abraham and Isaac. You had the dry bones with Ezekiel, you had Joseph showing up. There are so many things that could have not worked. And that was a pretty good depiction of a scene that is going to be really, really hard to write. Like, that is just going to be a hard scene to do well, which extends to the whole season, by the way, this. And I said at the beginning of the season, and I've made comments throughout this entire season's commentary about every episode. There's something that I see differently, that I teach differently, that I frame differently historically. The last week, the final week of. Geez, the passion week. What a hard season to put together in a way that is. And I even see things differently in almost every episode. And it just was done. Even still, it just was done so well that I just have no complaints by the time it was done. This was a hard season to put together and to do in any way, in an attractive way that didn't just push people like me, nerds like me out of the conversation or really irritate me. And it was really done well. So I. This was not of all the seasons, and next season is going to be another one. I don't know how they'll do next season, but this season and next season are two of the hardest parts of this whole narrative to do something like this and do it well without pushing this one direction or another.

[Brent Billings]

The synoptics, the gospels in general, the timeline and the flow of everything, they don't make it easy to line everything up. And some of the stuff, like Jesus could very conceivably say, like, you betray the son of man with a kiss and then go on to say, do what you got to do, my friend. Like, he could say both of that. Sure. Like, that's. That's easy to harmonize.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

But the fact that they chose to put the line in, that they did.

[Marty Solomon]

Yes.

[Brent Billings]

Leaning into the humanity of everything going on here.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep. Yep.

[Brent Billings]

I just. I really appreciate stuff like that.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. And there's so many ways this could go wrong. But what you're talking about is one of those ways where you, like, I have to get every line. I have to get every word. And they don't. And because they don't, they don't screw it up because they make a choice of, we're gonna grab this line and this line and this line, but we're gonna leave that line out for these reasons. And that's how most of these Jesus productions get it wrong. And they've chosen to do it so well, so kudos to them.

[Brent Billings]

So then, Marty, I guess the last thing is, did you catch the bloopers this time at the end of the episode?

[Marty Solomon]

Oh, no. Was it this episode Incarnate? I never do that.

[Brent Billings]

Was put at the end of the exceptionally long credits that the last episode gets.

[Marty Solomon]

But, yeah, I get to those credits, I'm like, oh, here's those long, long credits. And then I turn it off without even thinking. But there's bloopers I should know by now. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[Brent Billings]

There's a couple of particularly great ones where it's the scene where John gets up to follow Jesus as Jesus is getting ready to make the whip. That one is great.

[Marty Solomon]

A little.

[Brent Billings]

You could call it a Jesus juke. A little jump scare for John.

[Marty Solomon]

It's pretty fun. Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

And then there's that line where Thaddeus and Jesus approach little James out in the forest, and what does he say? He says something, and little James responds, yeah, what's it to you? And, you know, in. In the actual scene, Jesus is kind about it, but in the blooper, he's like, oh, that's rude. Find your own way to Jerusalem. Make your own camp.

[Marty Solomon]

Nice.

[Brent Billings]

So, you know the things that Jesus.

[Marty Solomon]

Probably wanted to say in his humanity every day.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

All right, well, that is season five. We'll be back next week. One more bonus episode to talk to Dallas Jenkins to answer all of our questions, no doubt.

[Marty Solomon]

I'm sure.

[Brent Billings]

Be great. All right, so that does it for this week. Thank you for joining us on the Bama podcast. Wrestling through this stuff, digging in the text, as we said, appreciating all these details that they're including the details that they're leaving out, trying to. Trying to get in the minds of the disciples, get into the mind of Jesus. This is the goal of what we're doing here. So thank you for joining us in that. We'll talk to you again soon.