C (2:16)

I'm truly honored to hear that. So that's. Yeah, that's a great way to start a morning. So thank you very much.

B (2:23)

Well, I think you surprise everyone with how fun you are as a scholar we just don't get to, like, you're a scholar and a ball of fun. So it was great.

C (2:33)

I try. I try.

B (2:34)

Yeah, I bet. Well, we would love to just hear, since you are returning and an official friend of the show, which. I love that phrase. We'd love to have just an update on what you've been doing since we talked about a year ago. I believe you've had a daughter that has graduated college, another one that has entered. Tell us more about what's going on.

C (2:56)

Okay, so first of all, thank you so much for knowing about the other part of my life. Yeah, we. We graduated a girl from Point Loma. She's chasing the dream of being a pop star.

B (3:08)

Love that.

C (3:08)

And even more crazy is it's. It's working. So that's a very interesting arena to try to navigate as a believer and as a young woman. My other one, my younger daughter, chose Westmont for college, which equally stunned me, and she's having a great time, which is lovely. My husband and I are plugging away, doing what we do, and, oh, my gosh, thousands of classes and presentations and podcasts and trying to get some articles and books off, and I think I need to live until I'm 120 to take care of all of the commitments I've made.

A (4:01)

That's perfect. So, also, last time that we talked, you had just spoken for the first time at a synagogue on environmental theology.

C (4:10)

Oh, yes, that is very true.

A (4:12)

You know, this is a continuing theme for you. I was looking into this a little bit. Your work on the stewardship of creation goes back to at least 2005.

C (4:19)

Well done.

A (4:20)

When you spoke at Asbury Theological Seminary.

C (4:23)

Yeah.

A (4:24)

And you said that you agreed to speak there because you were young and idealistic.

C (4:30)

Yeah.

A (4:31)

And by process of whatever, like, you have described Marty and me as young. So thank you for that. But how would you characterize those feelings today? Do you still feel the same way that you did back then?

C (4:44)

Well, that first experience, and I'm really impressed that you have tracked that down. That was the first time in a pulpit on environmental theology and the application of, okay, what do we, as the community of faith supposed to be doing about it? And it was Central Kentucky, and as I'm sure you know, these issues are regionally attended to, and central Kentucky is not known for environmental commitments. And what was beautiful about that moment is the people of God responded to the word of God, and we had major action in response to that presentation. So now that I've been at it for. We're getting old here, you know, 15, 16, 17 years, I still have the same dream. Actually, the dream's gotten bigger. Let me put it that way. The dream's gotten bigger. I was thinking in terms of my local community and our local responsibility back in 2005. Now I'm thinking about waking the sleeping giant. And often when I'm on some sort of interview or podcast, you know, someone will ask me, what's your big idea? And. And I don't typically think in those terms, but they've made me think of it, and this is my big idea. The church. There is no force on this planet that is more powerful in the realm of social reform than the community of faith. And if we awaken to this reality, we have and can change. Change the world. So that's my big idea. And that's what I'm plugging away at.

B (6:31)

That is a pretty good big idea. I really like how you said that. Part of what I enjoyed about our last conversation, too, Sandy, was your like, in a world where there's plenty of stones to throw and there's plenty of critique to be made about the church, and, like, you still had this grounded view that was. It was still thinking critically. It still sought for what it was. But it was also like. But on the other side of this, there is still. If we can awaken. I love that phrase. I'm gonna have Brent bury that out of the. Or unbury that out of the transcript and put that on my whiteboard. If we can awaken our ecclesiological consciousness, there is some really, really good, powerful stuff to be accomplished there. I just love your commitment to Eden. Obviously, we talked last time. We've always loved your epic of Eden. But then you've done other work, too. The stewards of Eden, a work back in 2020. You talk in there about, like, a hierarchy of creation, dominion thereof, all that kind of stuff. God communicates his place in that order, our place in that order. But then you also. This is very Bema flavored. You talk about Sabbath. You talk about the seventh day. You talk about a Sabbath practice, both individually and communally. Talk to us a little bit about just Sabbath. That's a big heart of ours here at Bama.

C (7:52)

Yeah, but.

B (7:53)

But talk to us about Sabbath, creation theology, Eden, all that stuff. Give. Just do your thing.

C (8:00)

Do my thing. Thank you. An open door. Well, I know that about Bama. That Sabbath is a big deal for you, but the reason it is is because of the Jewish flavor of what you do. And as we both know, any Jew will tell the world that Sabbath is the great gift that God gave to his people. And what I love about the concept of Sabbath, when put in context, is that God is talking to a rabble of ex slaves whose lives were completely possessed by others. They had no agency over their own schedules, their own lives. And, and so God's first gift to them is this gift of Sabbath where He commands them and as a card carrying workaholic, he commands them to rest. What I say in Stewards of Eden and in my other works on the topic is that there's an ideological principle built into the Sabbath and that is that human health, and honestly, I would say cosmic health, comes from a posture of restraint, which is so un American. Right? As Americans, we are trained from the tenderest of ages to squeeze every minute out of our day, every dollar out of our budget. We wear our labels proudly, be they our blue jeans, are our diplomas, right? And in the midst of this, God commands restraint. He commands that we stop producing and he commands that we stop consuming at least one day a week. And that posture is environmental theology. Or at least that posture creates environmental theology. Because as I'll say over and over again, our environmental crisis is not built on need, it's built on greed. And if we could relearn as a society, that's asking a lot. But how about as the people of God, that posture restraint and recognize that we don't have to take everything the land can produce, we don't have to take every creature from its habitat, we would not be having our current crisis.

A (10:32)

You talk about the time frames of some of these things. Some of the case studies that you share in the book are, are things where it's like they make a decision and then 30 or 40 years later you're seeing the effects of that stuff play out. Yes, it's a big challenge to get somebody to think in that sort of timeframe.

C (10:50)

Sometimes people will ask me, Brent, what do you think the greatest ideological problem is with environmentalism? Or what do we have to change? And of course it's a wicked problem, as the ethicists would say. There are many streams that are, are pouring into this one problem. But one of those streams, in the United States of America at least, is the four year election cycle. We have got a slew of leaders. In fact, our entire leadership structure is built around short term objectives. Whereas scripture is thinking about the next generation. And specifically Leviticus and Deuteronomy is our two big law codes are constantly speaking about the next generation. You need to do X so that it will be well, for your children and your children's children. And we don't have a government that thinks in that fashion. And so the 40 year impact of breaching the roadless rules, that's what's happening right now. The 40 year impact. I can tell you what it's going to be. But current elected officials are targeting that next election cycle. They're not targeting my grandchildren.

B (12:09)

Yeah.

A (12:10)

Another theme that you touch on a lot, that we talk about a lot on Bama is the idea of the alien and the orphan and the widow. You kind of establish creation care being a cause for these groups of people. You gave some moving examples from Madagascar and India and all these places. Tell me more about that. And maybe if you have a new story that you've come across since you released Stewards of Eden that you'd like to share as well.

C (12:36)

Yeah, thank you. And that's the problem with any book like Stewards. The case studies are stale before they even hit print. Although they're. I mean, what's happening with the Malagasy hasn't shifted much, unfortunately. Okay. So one of the things that most Christians are not aware of is, is that the people group that is struck first and hardest by environmental degradation is always the widow and the orphan. And that goes from inner city Chicago to Madagascar to Welch County, West Virginia. So it's always the widow and the orphan who are hit first, who are hit hardest, and whose economic stability is most compromised by environmental degradation. And. And Marty, similar to what you were saying before, the church cares about the marginalized. We are good at the marginalized. We're the reason hospitals exist. We're the reason orphanages exist. And any decent history of the Western world will report that it's the church that was motivated to do something about that. So when I'm able in environmental presentations to bring that to the forefront, the church is listening, and I'm so grateful for that. So, Brent, my newest story on that is this past spring, I was at a Stone Campbell academic conference.

B (14:06)

Those are our people.

C (14:07)

Yeah. Okay. So this is, you know, this is a revivalist group that's just starting to really make its move into the academy. And we were having that academic conference, and we were in eastern Tennessee, and the organizer asked me to do a general presentation on environmental theology and then do something local. And whenever folks ask me to do that, I kind of lean in and say, are you sure you want me to do something local? And he said, yes, I am. So I'm like, all right, we're in eastern Tennessee. We're going to do mountaintop removal, coal mining, and the predatorial relationship that the coal industry has had on the good people of West Virginia, western Virginia, eastern Tennessee for centuries. And I gave the presentation. You could have heard a pin drop. And Q and A comes and I see this younger man stand up in the bleachers and he's walking toward the microphones and I'm like, all right, deep breath, bend your knees. You know it's coming. And turns out this fellow, Ethan Johnson is his name. He's local and raised in Appalachia. Pastor's son went on to do his Ph.D. at St. Andrews. So very well trained. And he essentially turned to the crowd and said, I know you don't want to hear what she just had to say, but it's true and we need your help. And it just, it flipped the room. So I made a beeline for him after the presentation was over and we arranged. I spent several days this summer with him in his parish. So he is in Tazewell, Virginia. That's right near the line with West Virginia. So we spent time in Tazewell, we spent time in Welch, we spent time in Bishop. And we're tagging into this corner that regionally is all Appalachia, but we've divided it up by multiple states and saw up front and personal the agony of the people of this region in the United States of America. I mean food, desert and medical desert is just the beginning. The opioid addictions, the completely fouled groundwater for these historic farmers that live off their wells and their creeks, who no longer can offer water to either their children or their livestock. The sludge ponds that are completely toxic and surrounded by coal quicksand, the kind that will swallow an 8 year old boy who wants to throw a rock into a pond in five minutes everywhere. And there are no fences, there's no. The buildings are collapsing. So I'm in the process actually right now of writing just a little substack series on the experience. So plug for that sandyrichter.org website you can link into the substack. I'm two in. I've got one more to write. The Evangelical Environmental Network is sharing them as well. And Ethan, the doctor, Reverend Ethan Johnson is working with the local parishes. I connected him to an international organization. We're like, okay, if the federal government and the state government are going to turn a blind eye to taking care of their own people, let's see what we can do. So that's what we're working on now. Plant with purpose. They've been watching Appalachia for a long time, reeling them in, see what we can do.

B (18:00)

All right, so I'm going to step back out for just a moment and get my wide scope lens again. One of my favorite works that I've read when it comes to just social impact of theology would be the Great Spiritual migration by Brian McLaren. Towards the back of that book, he talks about how he got. He had a canceled flight. He was in Africa. He got stuck. He got stuck in this African bar and meets this guy who has a doctorate in social movement theater theory. And one of the points that I loved as a campus minister that we took out, that I took out of that read was there are three. Three groups of people if you want to lead a social movement that you work with. Children, youth and young adults, college students. And obviously, I'm a college student guy. I have not been trained in. In children's stuff or children's. And I know that takes a special training. That's not just something you go in there. Oh, it's working with kids. Who cares? No, there's a way to work with kids.

C (18:55)

Yeah. They don't read. It's really. Yeah.

B (19:00)

Well, speaking of which, the reason we're here today, kind of the impetus for this interview, is that you have a new children's book out called Abigail and the Waterfall. And I just love seeing. Because if I believe and I do that MacLaren is right, and this scholar he was talking to was right then. Working with children is so essential. And here you've written a children's book on these issues that we're talking about. Was this written in response to, like, a lack of resources for children? Was it just a natural extension of something that you've been like, you. You have this passion for this topic. Where did this book come from and what. What served as kind of the. The origin story of that?

C (19:41)

So can I just say, you guys ask great questions. You know, you said that last time.

B (19:46)

And I love hearing it again. So there you go.

A (19:49)

I was terrified. I was like, are we going to live up to it? Can we ask the great questions again?

C (19:53)

You're doing it. You're doing it. Or at least I think so. So I'm just going to give that plug to your audience.

B (19:58)

Thank you.

C (19:59)

So the children's book is a really fun thing, Marty. Writing children's books has always been back here on my bucket list. But I'm a professor, I'm a speaker. I've got, you know, this technical stuff to get out. And so it was back here. And honestly, I used to tell my kids, okay, when I am quantifiably really old and I'm on my rocking chair on my front porch in Ipswich, Massachusetts, I'm going to write children's books. And I go, yeah, yeah, Mom. Okay. So IVP reached out to me because they were starting a children's line, and they said, you know, we want to engage issues of theology with children. We're starting this line. Is there any chance you'd be interested in writing a children's book on environmental theology? And they hadn't finish the sentence before. I was like, yes, yes. So I made the commitment, the story of my life made the commitment. 120, 130, maybe I need to live. We'll see. And it's. It's writing on the back of my to do list. And I. It was a late Friday, and I had just submitted something. And you know, when. When you've just submitted something, it's like you've just given birth. You're exhausted. Your brain doesn't want to do that ever again. But brain still spinning at the same time. So I was like, hey, what about that children's book? So I pulled up an empty word file and pulled together my most beloved role in my life, which is mom, my great love for adventure and the environment, and just started typing. And by the time the weekend was over, I had a children's book. And I had so much fun. Writing was like going from O Chem to watercolors. And I fell in love with Abigail. I fell in love with her little brother. And I really, really enjoyed writing this book and then working with the illustrator and working with idp. As Marty has said, doing children's stuff is very different than doing the Society of Biblical Literature. You have to let the pictures tell the story. Yeah, it was a. It was a. A real stretching process. I'm loving the way the book is being received. We just did a launch a couple of weeks ago. I was just doing the Mount Hermon annual Women's retreat. If you're on the west coast, you'd know the Mount Hermon camp. And people are responding so beautifully to this book. It's warming my heart.

A (22:52)

My kids were delighted by it.

C (22:54)

Oh, yay.

A (22:56)

Going through it. So you have. I'm going to grab my copy here. So you have throughout the book, not exactly hidden, but you just have all these elements where you're like, oh, this is a darter, fish, and different plants and animals and whatever. My kids just loved it. They were so engaged on every single page looking for these things. It was the perfect element. So I'd love to know what the illustration process was like. How did you even decide to do that format? Where'd that idea come from? How did you decide what plants and animals to include?

C (23:30)

Well, again, great questions. So you will notice if. If you're regionally attentive that the book is coming out of Appalachia, these dots will all connect, I hope. Before we're done, man, I again, dreaming big. If we could actually consolidate our efforts for the widow and the orphan, educating the child, the beauty of the United States, and do something about the mess that we've created in the Appalachian Mountains, man, that would be beautiful. Okay, so because I am an environmentalist, when I wrote this book, I had a region in mind. And so one of the discussions that got a little heated at certain points with InterVarsity was we will have correct flora and fauna in this book. And this back and forth. I mean, an ivp, to their great credit, they engaged, but they, not being environmentalists, did not recognize the significance of that issue. So there was. There was a lot of back and forth on that. And we came to an agreement. And then Michael Corzini, who is the illustrator, who has some experience in Appalachia, he actually lives in Pennsylvania. You know, once the vision got caught, he was all over it and very much wanted to start labeling these creatures. So I've heard this called Easter eggs in children's literature, where you hide something in the book. And so it was that shared vision between myself and Michael. And, you know, IVP endorsed and moved it forward. I do have to say, on one of my environmental organizations, a notice just came through that the Candy Darter F has just been protected in Ohio. And who are they being protected from? They're being protected from coal runoff. That was very exciting to me to see that. And the hellbender, if you're on any of these lists, is the largest salamander in North America. Is also on the endangered list. The hellbenders. Listen to the name hellbender. They are scary ugly, like they look like Godzilla. So I decided not to champion the hellbender in my book.

B (26:01)

Sure.

C (26:01)

But they're getting a lot of. A lot of attention right now, too. And it all goes back to water health. All goes back to water health. So the combination. Sorry, back to your question of adventuring with my own children. And I've been told more than once that I'm a boy mom who had girls, and my girls are a lovely combination of the two. Adventuring with my own girls. My love for the environment and the impact that certain books had on me as a child. Like Black Beauty. If you were to take Uncle Tom's Cabin and move it into the world of livestock. That's the story of Black Beauty had a huge impact on me when I was 7, 8 years old. I was an early reader. So all of that combined for me. Oh, and I ran toddler church at St. Pat's Anglican for about seven years. Marty. That's where I learned that the pre abstract thought thing was a big deal.

B (27:08)

Yeah.

C (27:09)

So all of that came together. I am so hoping that Abigail and Levi get traction because I want to grow them up. I have three more books I want to write.

B (27:18)

Well, I'm. I'm particularly biased for the name. My daughter's name is Abigail, so I'm.

A (27:23)

Immediately connected to the.

B (27:24)

I love it to the book when I. When I read it.

C (27:26)

But my father rejoices. Yes.

B (27:29)

Yeah, absolutely. It was a fun day when I chose that name when she was born. But you talked about some of the engagement from Mike, your publisher, and those kind of things. I have a question I'm trying to formulate that I may not even do a very good job with. I was at a speaking event recently, and we were talking. We had a session on just a Jewish theological understanding of righteousness and justice. We were talking about shalom. We were talking about how rabbis will often talk about shalom as this triangular relationship between God and humankind and creation. Like there are these relationships between God and humankind, God and creation, and humankind and creation. These three relationships that form a triangle. And when those are in right relationship, you get shalom. There was this gentleman there, and we had been connecting just like every session. Like, he was picking up what I was putting down. We were vibing. Like he was just in the wheelhouse. I had not sensed any dissonance with this member of the audience at all. I got done with that talk and he came up and he says, I really think you should use a different word than creation because it makes me think that you're talking about like, creation, care and environmental sustainability. And I was like, it's because it's exactly what I'm talking about.

C (28:44)

Right, right.

B (28:45)

And there was this dissonance of. But that's a liberal. That's a political liberal talking point. There was just this failure to compute. I'm not even sure what my question is, but there is. It's along the themes of. I mean, you've already addressed, like, where do we start? And some of the things that are in front of us and the role that politics, sociopolitical ideologies play and all that. But what do we. Because I want there. I don't want to just leave. I don't want to be like, well, I'm right. You're obviously short sighted, can't believe you're such an idiot. I'm going to go find my tribe. I want to stay in this space and figure out how we can all. And because there are things I'm sure I need to learn. So how do we stay in this space, have some of this dialogue, engage in some of that ecclesiological awakening? What are your thoughts when you hear me? Because I know you've experienced that same thing. I know you know what I'm talking about, but what do we do? How do we take up space in that conversation?

C (29:41)

Well, I love that phrase that I want to stay in this space. And why do I want to stay in this space? Because I realize that that person across the table from me is a brother or sister.

B (29:51)

Yeah.

C (29:52)

And we're bound, we're bound by blood. So what are we going to do about this? And honestly, this is one of my greatest worries right now as I watch my social media feed, as I watch what's happening on the Internet and on the news, is that the fabric of our kinship bond is being torn apart.

B (30:16)

Yes.

C (30:17)

By this cultural moment of accuse, vilify and polarize. I, I need to turn it into like an alliterated phrase. And if you've got one, I'm, I'm there. But we're all watching it everywhere. Right. Where I am more than willing to call my brother in Christ a fool because he's committed to a different political party than I am. What, you know, what would Paul in, in the first three chapters of Corinthians have to say about that? And it wouldn't be good. Right?

B (30:54)

Yeah.

C (30:55)

So I think about that a lot. You guys know that the introduction to stewards and the introduction to probably any talk I'm going to give on environmentalism is going to address three problems that keep the. That that paralyzed the church on environmental concern. And the first one I will name is politics, and specifically American politics. Because whereas the defense of the unborn has wound up a Republican issue, environmentalism has wound up a Democratic issue. And supposedly if you are a Christian, that means you have to be a Republican. And that means that anything that's attached to the Democratic platform can't be your issue. And what I wind up saying, and it usually works well, is brothers and sisters, we belong to Another kingdom. We're citizens of another kingdom. Red and blue will always disappoint. Neither one of those platforms is going to bring the kingdom. Our job is to live in this space, in this world, as representatives of that other kingdom. And this particular topic, environmental concern, belongs to our kingdom. And let me show you. And that's always the bottom line, Right. If I can show these folks in their Bible that this is their issue, even though I have ruffled feathers and I've made people uncomfortable, I rarely have a crash and burn. Usually the response is, I did not know. What do I do next?

B (32:46)

Well, I love that you brought that up about American. Specifically American politics. Because when I traveled to the UK a couple years ago.

C (32:55)

Exactly. Yes.

B (32:56)

I'm squarely in what they call a conservative space. And one of the things that they were quite aware of, had no problem addressing was creation care. And they're like, well, like, their disagreement was all about methodology. What do you do about that? And who's being held accountable? But the issue of like, well, of course we've got to do something about creation care. And it was no longer this. And I was like, oh, gosh. And. And we actually chatted. When I was talking to people, I knew that I could get a little bit deeper and trust. They're like, okay, so in America, you can't take care of the environment because that's not a conservative issue. I'm like, yes, right. And that was hopeful for me to realize that, like, oh, this isn't global like this. The way that we see these ideologies and the way that they break up in our corners is not how they necessarily break up in Europe or other parts of the world.

C (33:44)

When Stewards of Eden was releasing, I was over at the London School of Theology. I was giving their annual lecture and doing things with their PhD folk and all that stuff, which was tons of fun. It was the last trip I took before COVID shut the world down. And the public lecture we titled it Can a Christian Be an Environmentalist? And the response from the crowd is, why are you even asking that question? And their political parties are busy fighting over who can be greener. An interesting space. And I think. And you live in that space more than I do. This current moment of gosh in Christians in an age of outrage is honestly quite terrifying to me. And environmentalism is one of the. I'm thinking of a volleyball that's getting knocked back and forth over the net. Honestly, I'd love to hear from you all how you are handling that polarization that's impacting the church so deeply.

B (34:58)

Well, I'll comment on that, and then Brent can ask you all of his deuteronomy questions. I don't think I have. I don't. There are some things I feel really good about what we're doing. Part of it is being so adamant about curiosity and dialogue. Like, we do these monthly Q&As. I was just talking to one of our team members. Like, there's not a ton of people that show up for those. Like, why do we. And we do it because we're trying to build a culture of it's okay to ask questions. It's okay to listen to each other. It's okay to receive a question that is obviously loaded and slanted and. And point. It's okay to, like, receive it respectfully and soften, like, in the way that you receive it. Soften the edges and. And try to disarm and make an obvious abrasive enemy a friend. Like, there's something about that. For me, part of the reason that Bama exists is because I grew up in fundamental evangelicalism, and the Bible is everything. So if you think the Bible teaches something, you will defend absolutely everything because the inspired word of God says X. And so Bama exists because we wanted to have a more critical way of reading the inspired word of God. We don't have the corner on that, but it's also not what we were handed growing up in my corners. So to just broaden that with some critical thinking, to broaden it with some access to maybe more academically rooted good scholarship, to just broaden our horizons a little bit beyond those two things, I don't know what we're doing. I think we're doing a couple of things that help shape the conversation, but it is. It can be so exactly what you're saying. Christians in an age of outrage, when the culture around you is trying to stoke that outrage and the gospel is trying to call us into a different kind of peacemaking, and not just a peacemaking that is. Well, let's stop arguing, But a peacemaking of note. How do we actually bring shalom, restoration, wholeness. Yeah, I can be pretty deflated and cynical some days, maybe even most days, but we'll keep at it.

C (37:16)

Yeah. What I want to see in the Christian community, and I want to see this on so many topics, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised at what's happening around me. I want to see Christians who, when they say, my allegiance belongs to Jesus, that they mean it. And what that means is that my bond to you. And my bond to Brent and my bond to the Republicans and the Democrats, who truly are Christians, supersedes everything else in my life. That we truly are living stones being built up together into, you know, into a holy edifice to offer spiritual sacrifices, that we truly are the body of Christ. And so our first allegiance is there. And so many of our social issues as a church just have evaporated in, you know, I could say in the last decade, I can say in the last century, I think about racism. Oh, my goodness. What would have happened if the church actually would have owned its allegiance to Christ before its allegiance to societal norms? And we had named the other brother and sister because of their allegiance to Christ? And let the world see that. Oh, my gosh.

B (38:41)

Well said. Well, before I start getting in on this rant party, Brent, you should ask about the Book of Deuteronomy.

A (38:46)

Well, and this might be a, you know, sharp left turn, but I also kind of feel like it's going to tie right back into everything we've been talking about. So I've been reading through Deuteronomy recently, and.

C (38:55)

Kudos.

A (38:56)

Yeah, thank you. I feel like I'm seeing it with completely new eyes. Like, the language has struck me as incredibly beautiful. I've been fascinated by the scope of it, and there's, like, this grandness to it. But there's one particular question of scope that comes out of chapter 32. I'm going to read through a few verses and emphasize the things that I'm like, okay, but this says this. So anyway, it's 32, starting verse 44. Moses came with Joshua, son of nun, and spoke all the words of this song in the hearing of the people. When Moses had finished reciting all these words to all Israel, he said to them, take to heart all the words I have solemnly declared to you this day so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this law. They are not just idle words for you. They are your life. By them you will live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess. And so it seems like in some sense, he's just talking about the song, but maybe he's talking about all of Deuteronomy, or maybe he's talking about all of Torah, because, like, this is the end of his life. He's getting. So I would just love. And maybe there's not, like, a definitive answer on this, but I'd love to know what your scope is, what your idea of the scope is, when Moses says they are not just idle words. For you. What words is he talking about? Is he just talking about that song, or is he talking about the whole Torah experience? What are your thoughts on that?

C (40:19)

I would argue he's talking about all of Deuteronomy. And honestly, he's talking about everything that he has taught them over the course of wilderness wanderings. It's one thing I've been toying with. I am well into a commentary that is still not finished on Deuteronomy. Hopefully. Maybe they'll distribute it at my funeral. I don't know. Maybe that'll be like, the door fries at my funeral.

B (40:52)

Oh, my goodness.

C (40:54)

Yeah. My poor kids. Okay, so this song is one of the, I would argue, appendices to the Book of Deuteronomy, meaning that Moses wrote it. Moses is singing. Doesn't fit anywhere into, you know, chapters one to. You could even say one to 30, because in 30, you're going to have the hortatory climax, the preaching climax, and so the blessing and the song wind up, in some ways, appended to the end of the book. Obviously, it's mosaic material. Obviously it's wilderness material, but it doesn't fit into the. It doesn't fit into the treaty format.

B (41:50)

Right.

C (41:50)

That all of this material is being structured in. I'm not sure if we talked about this last time we were together, but when I describe the Book of Deuteronomy, I speak of it as a law code tucked inside a narrative, staged as a sermon and structured as a covenant. And every one of those genres is represented in the book, which is why it's so complex, because you're reading along and you're like, oh, okay, here's the historical prologue of Israel's covenant. And whoa, there's a sermon. And wait a second, here's a narrative. Okay, we're moving forward. And whoa, there's a song. So the structuring of this book is very complex and a bit brilliant as well, to say the least.

A (42:43)

Yeah.

C (42:44)

So I would say that that song is referring to everything, all the words of this law, partly because that phrase, words of this law, gets dropped in like an Easter egg several times in the larger book. So I would say that, yes, it's referring to the entire law. And he's tagging into that preaching climate, that climax as well. Choose life. Right? That's the preaching climax of the entire book. Choose life. I love you. Please don't choose death. These are not just idle words for you. They are your life. And if you'll take this law into the promised land, you'll actually succeed. As we all know, they kind of failed to. So I've been rambling. Brent, have I answered your question? Would you like to narrow it?

A (43:44)

I wasn't expecting, you know, a specific answer necessarily. I just wanted, as the foremost expert on Deuteronomy, that I know. I thought you would. I thought your perspective would be valuable.

C (43:54)

Yeah. Jeff to gay might argue with you, but go ahead.

A (43:57)

Okay. Okay. Well. And reading through Stewards of Eden recently made me notice this word possess at the end, which I was looking into, and it is yarash. I don't know if I'm saying that correctly.

C (44:11)

You're fine.

A (44:12)

And Stewards of Eden talks about the possession in Genesis 1, but that's a different word. Kabash or something like that.

C (44:19)

There's a cluster of words that all have to do with military acquisition, controlling land and inheritance. They're all used in the creation narratives, they're all used in the conquest narratives. And honestly, they're all reflected in the treatment of the new heavens and the new Earth. And I would argue that's because the idea of a land grant is being back written into Genesis 1 and 2 because it's happening in Moses experience, and it's being projected as a type into type to our understanding of the New Jerusalem. And so the bottom line there is that the Earth was given to humanity as our place to live and thrive. We were given authority over that planet so that we could live and thrive, and it could live and thrive. But all of this under the overarching Sabbath authority of the Almighty. That. That's the blueprint. So one of the reasons I pull out that language in Stewards of Eden is that most environmentalists are. Okay, I'll say it out loud. Most environmentalists are environmentalists first and theologians second. I am a theologian first and an environmentalist second. And I am an environmentalist because the Bible is an environmental stewardship book, not the other way around. So as a result, a lot of folks who do environmental theology are very, very uncomfortable with dominion, control, authority. I'm not uncomfortable with that. I'm not uncomfortable with hierarchies, even though, again, that is in opposition to this cultural moment. Why am I not opposed to hierarchies? Because Genesis 1 is all about a hierarchy. And in that hierarchy, we have the Almighty, we have his image bearers, and we have creation. And our job is to be well. Our gift is to receive the land grant that is Eden, that is Israel, that is in the New Jerusalem. Type. Antitype, perhaps. Type. Again, we could argue that for a while, but our Authority is exercised under the authority of our suzerain Lord. None of this stuff is ours. It has never been ours. These are resources that have been put on loan to us for our benefit. So if we think along that trajectory, that this earth is a land grant given to us so that we can thrive and our sovereign Lord is giving us the guardrails of how we're to interact with this planet. That makes you an environmentalist. Yeah.

B (47:29)

I'm not going to screw up that. That moment with my closing question, Bren. That's. I love the concept of stewardship and I love how you just framed that. Why you don't have to be because the hierarchy appropriately place the hierarchy appropriately honored. The hierarchy is the answer. Isn't obliterating all those hierarchies. It's accepting those responsibilities and honoring those things and doing those things. Well, stewardship makes sense to me because of that hierarchy and I want to over like, like, oh, I love hierarchy because of our cultural moment either. But stewardship only makes sense because of our place in this thing that we call the cosmos.

C (48:07)

Amen.

B (48:08)

And yeah, I can't think of a better. A better place to work towards a closing and leaving us with that responsibility that we're invited to, that partnership that we're invited to have with the Creator. That's beautiful.

A (48:22)

Well, Sandy, I know you need to get going. You have another thing. But you have been very generous with your time. We are delighted to talk to you. We could talk for hours again. So I hope that we make this an annually recurring thing.

C (48:35)

Let's do that. It is such a joy to talk about these issues and talk about these issues with brothers in Christ and like minded followers and man, let's see if we can do some of this right.

A (48:49)

You know, and to find joy in it.

C (48:51)

Yes. Yeah.

A (48:52)

Like we talk about the Jewish perspective of the law being like ways to love God. It's not like it's this big burden. Like this responsibility of stewarding creation does not have to be this burden weighing down on us. It can be a joy to care for God's creation.

C (49:11)

Oh, amen.

A (49:12)

I love being able to. To flip things around and see them from this joyous and loving perspective because I think that's how God wants us to see it.

C (49:21)

I'm so with you on that front. So with you. Amen.

A (49:26)

Okay, well, we have a whole slew of links in the show notes which listeners can find in their podcast app or@baymontassipleship.com this should be episode 492. I believe I don't know. We're not completely firm on our schedule yet, but something along those lines. So people can find that on the website and get in touch with us if you have any questions. We'll have lots of ways in the show notes to get in touch with Sandy if you want to find her work and see what she's doing. But thank you all for joining us on the Bama podcast today. We'll talk to you again soon.