The Ben Shapiro Show — "Biblical Idolatry & The Role of Moses" w/ Jordan B. Peterson, et al.

Date: December 26, 2025
Main Guests: Jordan B. Peterson, Eric Metaxas, Jonathan Haidt, Dennis Prager, Greg Koukl, Jonathan Sacks, Hugh Hewitt, Ira Glass

Episode Overview

This episode, drawn from the "Exodus Seminars" series, features an in-depth roundtable discussion on the biblical book of Exodus. Hosted by Ben Shapiro and joined by prominent thinkers—including Jordan Peterson, Jonathan Sacks, Dennis Prager, and others—the dialogue explores the significance of sacred space, the dangers and meaning of idolatry (focusing on the Golden Calf incident), and the role of Moses as mediator and archetypal leader. The conversation weaves together theology, linguistics, psychology, and cultural commentary, delving into how ritual, revelation, and the experience of the divine still resonate for contemporary listeners.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sacred Space, Ritual, and the Presence of God

Timestamps: 02:12–06:23

• The group discusses Exodus 29:43-46, where God promises to dwell among the Israelites in the tabernacle.
• Eric Metaxas highlights God's elusive, yet tangible, presence: "The presence of God is the foundation of stable space... If the presence moves, so should the people." (03:46)
• Dennis Prager (paraphrased): The word 'glory' is rooted in 'weight'—God's presence is the ultimate weight in the universe.
• The existential contrast is drawn between a life anchored in the weighty presence of God versus the "unbearable lightness of being" without God (05:11).

Notable Quote:

"Our Western culture, when Nietzsche says when God dies, things become weightless, there's no gravity in our culture."
—Dennis Prager (05:12)

2. The Personal vs. Abstract God

Timestamps: 06:55–12:11

• Contrast between the personal nature of the biblical God and the abstraction of Greek philosophy.
• Jordan B. Peterson: "To found a psyche and a community… you need an orientation to what's highest, that's unified. Why couldn't it be unified as a personality, given that we are personalities?" (07:58)
• The mobility and dynamism of God is discussed—God dwelling but also moving, challenging static representations.

Notable Quote:

"What God is isn't static enough to be encapsulated in anything that doesn't move... the container itself has to chase after the spirit that moves us forward into the adventure of our life."
—Jordan B. Peterson (09:45)

3. The Golden Calf Incident: Idolatry & Human Weakness

Timestamps: 12:11–33:41

• The seminar shifts to the story of the Golden Calf (Exodus 32), examining the Israelites’ regression into idol worship immediately after a transcendent revelation.
• Greg Koukl: "The weakest form of faith is based on seeing miracles... It's the rituals of everyday life that allow true romance to bloom.” (18:34)
• Ira Glass draws a psychological and ritual distinction—epiphanies versus everyday habits: “You can't spend your days... distracted... and think, you know, what happened to the highest. You've got to start very intentionally and build habits.” (17:06)
• Ben Shapiro: "We worship, celebrate, and pursue something. If you destroy what's divine, you're going to worship something else. You don't ever have this option where, ‘Well, I choose to worship nothing.’” (60:35)

Notable Quote:

"Atheist scientists say, 'Just show me some proof.' The right response is you'd forget about the damn proof in about 15 seconds... You think you're way more amenable to proof than you are."
—Jordan B. Peterson (52:27)

• The political and psychological roles of Aaron and Moses are explored, as are the roots of populism, leadership, and the dangers of following popular opinion over principle.
• The symbolism of the golden calf (materialism, fertility, and the perversion of sacred gifts) is analyzed (65:02–70:05).

4. Moses as Mediator and Archetype

Timestamps: 56:04–94:04

• Moses’ remarkable act of breaking the tablets is dissected: is it a justified dramatic embodiment of the people's betrayal, or an impulsive destruction?
• Greg Koukl: “Moses is the perennial outsider… and here he's saying, 'My whole life story is now bound up in the duty You gave me… If you destroy this people, you need to blot me [from Your book].'” (90:24)
• Moses' dialogue with God—contending for the people even at personal cost—is described as the height of sacrificial leadership and intercession.

Notable Quote:

"If you want to have the best relationship with someone, you love them and you fear them—but you don't fear what they're going to do to you, you fear what you could do to them." —Greg Koukl (36:09)

• Jonathan Haidt likens Moses’ vulnerability to archetypal reluctant heroes: “The person of the most value for a position is the one who doesn’t want to take it.” (117:54)

5. The Aftermath: Repentance, Humility, and Renewal

Timestamps: 94:04–127:07

• Post-Golden Calf, the discussion examines the measures of atonement, social culling, and the stripping of ornaments as ritualized humility.
• The group explores analogical and literal readings of the massacre following the calf, pointing to the psychological and societal consequences of unchecked chaos and idolatry.
• The movement of the tabernacle outside the camp is seen as both a literal and symbolic distancing of God’s presence after sin.

Notable Quote:

“God is not dwelling in the midst of the people anymore. God says, you take the tent, set it up over there, far away... I'm no longer among you.”
—Greg Koukl (109:50)

6. Moses’ Intimacy with God and the Limits of Human Knowledge

Timestamps: 123:03–130:11

• Moses requests to see God’s glory—pressing the limits of human-divine intimacy.
• Dennis Prager provocatively shifts focus from "God is love" to "God is goodness," challenging prevailing theologies (123:03).
• The answer God gives Moses—allowing him to see God's “back” but not His “face”—is parsed for its spiritual, psychological, and existential implications.

Notable Quotes:

"This is the most audacious prayer in the Bible. He’s praying to know everything of the Lord that a human being can know and not die."
—Dennis Prager (127:07)

"Reality is that to which you must adapt... To manifest a personality rooted in love is the best way to live."
—Jordan B. Peterson (38:49)

Timestamps of Key Segments

• Sacred space & glory: 02:12–06:23
• Personality of God vs. abstraction: 06:55–12:11
• Daily ritual, the meaning of prayer & loss of transcendence: 17:06–23:34
• Golden Calf incident: 52:27–101:05
• Moses’ response, the breaking of the tablets: 76:00–79:20
• Massacre & aftermath: 98:13–101:55
• Idolatry’s modern parallels & the leader’s role: 60:35–71:38
• The mediated presence of God: 106:51–115:20
• Moses’ intimacy & knowledge of God: 123:03–130:11

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “God is the stability of the moving... It’s always double because God is hiding, but also revealing himself.”
  —Eric Metaxas (10:46)

• “You worship the thing you value most, and if it isn’t the highest, then you’re inevitably engaging in idolatry.”
  —Ben Shapiro (60:35)

• “The God of the Bible is the most moved mover... the God of the Bible loves in this deep way.”
  —Dennis Prager (31:07)

• “It’s not just you have the capacity to harm the world. You love them so much you fear harming them.”
  —Greg Koukl (36:09)

• “Everybody dies with something left still to do. The best you can do… is that you can see in the dim future.”
  —Greg Koukl (120:00)

Thematic Takeaways

• Idolatry is not merely ancient; it’s a perennial temptation to misplace our deepest loyalty—be it to material wealth, to leaders of our own making, or to cultural fads—rather than to what is truly highest.
• Leadership’s burden is not popularity but principled mediation between the divine and the people, with Moses exemplifying the leader’s willingness to sacrifice his own standing for the community’s good.
• Divine intimacy and human limitation: Moses’ story is archetypal, threading reluctance and ultimate devotion; his yearning for God’s presence is met with both mercy and boundaries, echoing the human condition's perpetual seeking and the necessity of humility before the ultimate mystery.
• Modern parallels abound, particularly in the discussion about the worship of materialism, sexualization in culture, the loss of ritual and transcendence, and the risks of excessive compassion untethered from higher moral purpose.

Conclusion

This episode offers a rich, multilayered exploration of Exodus and human nature, contrasting the struggles, follies, and hopes of the Israelites with enduring human tendencies. Through close reading and spirited, sometimes vulnerable interchange, the panel draws out the enduring relevance of sacred space, ritual, idolatry, and redemptive leadership. The episode ends on the note of Moses’ humble but audacious longing to draw closer to the divine—a quest as relevant today as ever.

For a complete engagement with the material—both intellectually and spiritually—this seminar is essential listening for anyone interested in the intersection of ancient wisdom, modern psychology, and cultural critique.