Podcast Summary: The Ben Shapiro Show

Episode: “Epstein, Trump and Meeting the Pope | w/ Michael Knowles”

Release: January 2, 2026
Host: Ben Shapiro (The Daily Wire)
Guest: Michael Knowles

Episode Overview

This fast-paced, lively episode centers around a spirited, humorous “yes or no” battle of wits between Ben Shapiro and Michael Knowles, exploring their philosophical, political, and cultural differences and agreements. Topics range from the rituals of public figures in Israel, loyalty to the Vatican, conspiracy theories, and the fate of Jeffrey Epstein, to lighthearted debates on TikTok, social media, and the nature of AI-generated content. The tone is playful yet substantive, blending deep conservative commentary with genuine banter and personal anecdotes.

Key Discussion Points

1. The Rituals of Political Pilgrimage (03:07–06:34)

• Question: Should non-Jewish American politicians “kiss the wall” at Jerusalem’s Western Wall?
• Ben’s Take: Not a religious requirement for Jews or non-Jews. For evangelicals, it’s a ritual that plays well politically, not a true Jewish tradition.
  • Quote: “It’s not even like a Jewish thing...It’s not even a commandment to visit the wall.” – Ben (03:51)
• Michael’s Analysis: American politicians’ public gestures at the Wall are more about appealing to evangelical Protestant voters than to Jews.
  • Quote: “I think it plays very well to kiss the wall because it...came out of evangelical movements...It’s more playing to them than it is playing to Jews.” – Michael (05:10)

2. Layers of Identity and Loyalty (06:41–10:21)

• Dual Loyalty to the Vatican?
  • Knowles explains Catholic identity as a spiritual loyalty, distinct from national loyalty. He jokes about joining a revived “Papal Zouaves” army but clarifies that allegiance to the Vatican is not in conflict with American citizenship.
    • Quote: "The loyalty to the Vatican...and to the United States are loyalties of a different kind." – Michael (07:14)
• Identity in Western Politics: Both agree modern discourse flattens complex identities into false dichotomies (e.g., religious vs. national).
  • Quote: "Everybody has layers of identity...these do not conflict. I can be a good American and also be a good Jew and also be a good dad." – Ben (08:41)

3. On Pluralism and Nationhood (10:21–11:08)

• Michael and Ben discuss pluralism and the complications of religious/national identity, referencing the Westphalian system and historical religious wars.
  • Quote: “This is one of the many problems with the modern system of nation states...Am I a nationalist? Kind of. I also think empire is fine.” – Michael (10:23)
• Emphasis on the U.S. system rejecting the king's authority over religion; echoes of early constitutional debates.
  • Quote: "The king does not have the power to declare religious truth." – Ben (11:08)

4. Internet Virality & Political Discourse (12:57–15:34)

• Shows like “Surrounded”: Ben and Michael share candid experiences surviving adversarial, viral internet moments, and the pressure of living in a clip-driven culture.
  • Quote: “You can win for two hours...If you flub for two seconds...You look crazy.” – Michael (15:09)
• Nature of Contemporary Argument:
  • Quote: “It’s all about the clips that come out from the thing, for sure. That is...the name of the game on the Internet.” – Ben (15:11)

5. TikTok vs. Fentanyl: Which is More Dangerous? (15:35–17:43)

• Playful but earnest debate: Would banning TikTok save more lives than banning fentanyl?
• Michael frames this as a battle for souls vs. bodies, suggesting TikTok is “spiritual poison.”
  • Quote: “TikTok is more rot for your soul for a larger number of people than fentanyl.” – Michael (16:02)
• Ben’s nuanced view: Fentanyl is already banned; TikTok’s unique, China-backed virality represents a current, growing threat.
  • Quote: “TikTok’s algorithm is tremendously good...and it’s run by the Chinese Communist government.” – Ben (17:00)

6. Catholic vs. Protestant: If Ben Shapiro Were Christian (17:59–22:55)

• Ben says Catholicism closely resembles Judaism in its ritual, hierarchy, and practice; he'd choose Catholicism if ever to convert.
  • Quote: “Catholicism is more similar to Judaism than Protestantism by far.” – Ben (18:50)
• Michael affirms: It would only make sense for Ben to convert if thoroughly convinced it’s the most ‘Jewish’ thing to do.
  • Quote: “If you converted, you would...be convinced that the most Jewish thing to be would be Christian.” – Michael (20:46)
• Lighthearted moment: Ben’s anecdote of giving the Pope a 2005 White Sox signed baseball.
  • Quote: “The one miracle we can both agree on is the 2005 White Sox winning the World Series.” – Ben (21:38)

7. Debunking Conspiracies: Moon Landing, Epstein, and More (23:32–31:34)

• Moon Landing vs. Brigitte Macron Rumors: Both mock internet conspiracies, agreeing the US landed on the moon and that such theories overestimate institutional competence.
  • Quote: “Conspiracy theories assume a level of competence that is not in evidence.” – Ben (26:51)
  • Memorable moment: Comparing the difficulty of staging and concealing the moon landing to the real thing.
• Epstein’s Death – New Evidence? (32:03–39:55)
  • Michael raises anomalies about the Epstein suicide story and government inconsistency.
  • Ben, while skeptical of “grand conspiracies,” allows for possible official incompetence, bribes, or minor cover-ups. He stresses the lack of evidence for broader conspiracy.
    • Quote: “I haven’t seen the evidence to suggest that the people I’m talking about are lying...” – Ben (36:21)
  • Both agree the public wants a grander story than reality but note that political and intelligence dealings often remain murky by necessity.
    • Quote: “I think what the American people want on the Epstein thing is…that justice is being done in some way.” – Michael (38:31)

8. The Soul-Crushing Nature of AI Porn vs. Real Porn (56:31–59:33)

• Ethical Comparison: Is AI-generated porn worse than real porn?
  • Ben: Real porn is worse due to mutual degradation and real-world exploitation, but AI porn’s societal effects could be more insidious.
    • Quote: “Real porn involves multiple parties being horrific in a myriad of ways...AI porn will mostly be just men using Grok imagine to, you know, fulfill their most perverse fantasies.” – Ben (56:55)
  • Michael flirts with the possibility that AI porn is more evil because it is completely contrary to nature and reality, referencing medieval arguments and the limits of human depravity online.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Politicians’ Religious Gestures:
  “If you’re Jewish, no one has to kiss the wall. It’s ridiculous.” – Ben (03:51)
• On Identity:
  “Everybody has layers of identity…these do not conflict.” – Ben (08:41)
• On Evangelical Rituals:
  “I think it plays very well to kiss the wall because…evangelical Protestants have played a huge role in American politics.” – Michael (05:10)
• On TikTok vs. Fentanyl:
  “TikTok is poisoning more people at a spiritual level…by the tens of millions.” – Michael (16:19)
• On Conspiracy Theories:
  “Conspiracy theories assume a level of competence that is not in evidence.” – Ben (26:51)
• On Conservative Political Culture:
  “You can win for two hours...If you flub for two seconds...You look crazy.” – Michael (15:09)
• On the Catholic-Jewish Connection:
  “Both the Pope and I wear keepas. His keeper is bigger than mine, right?” – Ben (21:22)
• On Trump’s Uniqueness:
  “Donald Trump is now the most rational person maybe in American politics…he’s a shockingly pragmatic figure.” – Ben (53:09)
• On AI Porn:
  “AI generated porn involves the sinfulness and evil of the person who is typing in the prompt, but does not involve a second party who is prostituting herself.” – Ben (56:55)
• On Societal Decline:
  “If you provide me evidence that the secret cabal is running, then you’re now in the position of having to argue that Donald Trump and Cash Patel…are all involved in the secret cabal or covering up for the secret cabal. And the people who again, are posing the strongest version of this theory do not have the balls to just say it out loud.” – Ben (39:00)

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |------------|----------------------------------------------| | 03:07–06:34| Pilgrimage rituals & political gestures | | 06:41–10:21| Multiple loyalties and religious identity | | 12:57–15:34| Internet culture: shows, virality, pressure | | 15:35–17:43| TikTok vs. fentanyl, social decay debate | | 17:59–22:55| Would Ben be Catholic or Protestant? | | 23:32–31:34| Conspiracies: moon landing, Macron, etc. | | 32:03–39:55| Epstein: skepticism and government cover-ups | | 56:31–59:33| AI-generated porn vs. real porn – ethics |

Final Thoughts

This episode is a quintessential Ben Shapiro and Michael Knowles encounter—part intellectual joust, part friendly roasting, part cultural analysis. It covers substantive conservative perspectives on religion, identity, media, and American political drama, all while maintaining witty banter and periodic self-deprecation. Both challenge each other and their audience to examine received wisdom and the narratives shaping contemporary life.

Endnote: If you enjoy challenging conversation with an edge of humor and plenty of bold, conservative insight, this episode delivers start to finish.