Podcast Summary: The Ben Shapiro Show

Episode: FLASHBACK: Balancing Faith & Reason w/ Matt Fradd

Release Date: October 8, 2025
Host: Ben Shapiro (episode moderated by Michael Knowles)
Guest: Matt Fradd

Episode Overview

This episode features a deep, candid conversation between Catholic apologist Matt Fradd and Michael Knowles sitting in for Ben Shapiro, focusing on the interplay between faith and reason, the challenges of modern skepticism, comparative perspectives on Catholicism and Judaism, and the formation of moral communities in today's fragmented culture. Fradd and Knowles explore foundational questions on the existence of God, the problem of evil, the intellectual pitfalls of both radical skepticism and blind institutionalism, and the role of religious community in sustaining virtue and family life.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Opening Reflections on Sin and Redemption

• Matt Fradd (00:00): Shares personal vulnerability about feeling “ultimately unlovable” and counters that Christian faith offers “Christ as the only refuge big enough for your poor and wretched heart.”
• Fradd: “God is infinite in mercy, and when your sin goes up against that, this is like a drop of water being flicked into a raging furnace.”

Civil Discourse & Engaging Non-Believers

• Civil Discussion vs. Debate (02:00): Fradd advocates for defining terms and respectful dialogue over adversarial debate. He emphasizes understanding atheism, agnosticism, and theism each as having specific intellectual ground.
• On Engaging Agnostics (04:39): Fradd suggests posing meaningful questions about purpose and meaning as a way to invite deeper dialogue rather than mere argument:

  “If God does not exist... we are accidental byproducts of nature. There is no objective meaning for our life... That’s not an argument for God’s existence, but I’m going to need a good reason to think things are that bleak.” — Matt Fradd (04:39)

The Limits of Skepticism & Properly Basic Beliefs

• Philosophical Foundations (07:59):
  • Plantinga’s ‘Properly Basic Beliefs’: Fradd explains that belief in God, like belief in other minds, doesn’t require an endless chain of proofs.
  • Knowles relates this to Michael Oakeshott’s critique of rationalism, arguing most core beliefs are not reached solely via reason (09:31).
• Doubts Are Human (11:28):

  "Everything we believe, we don’t believe with this unusual degree of certainty. So I don’t think theists should feel bad if they sometimes have doubts or something like that." — Matt Fradd (11:28)

Radical Skepticism's Dangers

• Institutional Skepticism (12:22): Knowles notes how universal skepticism can lead to nihilism and social fragmentation, eroding trust in all authorities and making society unworkable.
• Polarization Online (13:39): Fradd points out how both far-left and far-right environments on the internet are driven by outlandish signaling and make ordinary people feel alienated and confused.

Faith, Reason, and the Problem of Evil

• Catholic & Jewish Rationality (16:13, 19:47): The two discuss Aquinas and Maimonides, noting that both advocate for knowing God through reason, but that revelation is necessary due to human limits.
• On the Problem of Evil (17:58):

  “Even if I don’t have an answer to the problem of evil, I can still say, given my experience and given all these arguments I have for God’s existence, which outweigh this argument...” — Matt Fradd (17:58)

  • Introduces Plantinga’s defense: God may have “morally sufficient reasons” for allowing evil.

Comparisons: Catholicism, Judaism, and Protestantism

• Criteria for Religious Choice (25:02):

  “The only good reason to believe anything is that you think it’s true.” — Matt Fradd (25:02)
  Fradd describes a tiered apologetic structure—atheism/theism, Christianity/non-Christianity, and Catholic/protestant distinctives.

• Interpretation & Tradition (26:43):
  • Both traditions emphasize that interpretations must not contradict foundational law or doctrine; a dynamic tension exists between preserving tradition and adapting to new realities.

Public Perceptions of Sin, Hypocrisy, and Virtue

• Sin as a Stumbling Block (28:11):
  • Knowles notes the public bristles at the language of sin, misinterpreting the idea that standards persist even when not met.
• Mercy Over Shame (29:37):

  "I think one of the reasons I get uptight when people point to my sinfulness is because I'm afraid... But the answer is to look at the great mercy of God and go, okay, this is my trust is in Him." — Matt Fradd (29:37)

The Normalization of Pornography & Embodiment

• Culture & Porn (31:40):
  Knowles and Fradd discuss the normalization and then emerging cultural critique of pornography.
  • Fradd: “The problem with porn is not sex, sexual desire, or nudity... It reduces the mystery and beauty of the human person to a sort of two-dimensional thing for my consumption.” (35:08)
• Embodiment in Catholic Thought (34:00):
  • Strong critique of dualism; “we are our bodies,” and dignity is tied to how we treat embodiment.

Religious Morality & Society: Pragmatism vs. Idealism

• Legislating Morality (36:19 – 41:00):
  • Knowles argues enduring societal change must be built “ground up” rather than imposed top-down, while Fradd emphasizes practical steps like education and fostering moral resistance at the individual level.

  "If you’re pro-love and pro-science, you should be anti-porn." — Matt Fradd (38:54)

How to Rebuild/Preserve Religious Values

• Community & Localism (76:12):
  Fradd advocates for strong, values-based communities (“move into a bubble of other like-minded people and raise them in the faith”) as essential defense and sustenance for virtue, especially for children.

  • Homeschooling, intentional community, and early candor about cultural pitfalls are practical strategies.

  “Living life in common like that, where my children don’t have to feel like freaks because they don’t have Instagram, is really helpful.” — Matt Fradd (77:02)

• Religious Community as Antidote to Loneliness (78:31):

  • Knowles: “The loss of community is the single greatest factor in the decline of religion.”
  • Both praise the way Jewish and Mormon communities model practical mutual support and communal standards.

Freedom, Roles, and the Western Crisis

• Purposeful Freedom (50:34):
  Knowles and Fradd argue, drawing on Exodus and Finnis, that “freedom exists for the sake of love,” and liberty without virtue is destructive libertinism.

  “The exercise of liberty was originally meant to exist within boundaries.” — Michael Knowles (48:33)
  “Whoever sins is a slave to sin. The Lord is calling me to love my wife and to love my children and to put them above other things.” — Matt Fradd (52:38)

Ritual Similarities: Catholicism & Judaism

• Law and Ritual (61:28 onward):
  • Both discuss detailed ritual practice (Sabbath/Sunday, prayer routines), showing how structure and repeated patterns anchor faith communities and transmit values across generations.
  • Knowles details Sabbath technics; Fradd describes Catholic ritual prayers.

  “I have very ritualistic prayers that I pray every single morning. I have a very specific thing that I do every night...these anchor me throughout the day.” — Matt Fradd (67:58)

Evangelism, Chosenness, and Inter-religious Understanding

• Judaism’s Attitude to Conversion (69:06):
  • Knowles: “Doctrinally, what Judaism believes is that the commandments of Israel were only given to Israel... The 613 commandments that apply to me are boiled down to seven for you.”
  • Judaism doesn’t seek to convert non-Jews to full Jewish observance, emphasizing moral monotheism for all and the idea of ‘chosen-ness’ as duty rather than superiority.

Threats to Religion: Internal & External

• Modernism & Zealotry (53:44):
  • Fradd perceives Catholicism as caught between modernist accommodation and separatist zeal.
  • Knowles notes similar divisions in Judaism: assimilation versus rejectionism.
• The Importance of Mission (57:06):
  • Collapse of generational mission and family formation is rooted in secular individualism and loss of communal purpose.
  • High birth rates and vigorous community life correlate with cultures that maintain a sense of shared religious mission (e.g., Israel).

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “God is infinite in mercy, and when your sin goes up against that, this is like a drop of water being flicked into a raging furnace.”
  — Matt Fradd (00:51)
• “If God does not exist... there is no objective meaning for our life… None of that is an argument for God existing. Of course, it might be that bleak... but I’m going to need a good reason to think things are that bleak.”
  — Matt Fradd (04:39)
• “So much of modern politics, modern religion, modern thought is based on this bizarre idea that human beings are atomistic individuals who exist without any sort of presets.”
  — Michael Knowles (09:31)
• “Everything we believe, we don’t believe with this unusual degree of certainty… I don’t think theists should feel bad if they sometimes have doubts.”
  — Matt Fradd (11:28)
• “It’s like the Internet, with all of this conflicting information, is making us weary, skeptical pragmatists.”
  — Matt Fradd (13:39)
• “The only good reason to believe anything is that you think it’s true.”
  — Matt Fradd (25:02)
• “We don’t talk about degrading paper clips and tumblers. We do talk about degrading the body because we just believe... that there is this sort of intrinsic worth to the body.”
  — Matt Fradd (35:08)
• “Living life in common like that, where my children don’t have to feel like freaks because they don’t have Instagram, is really helpful.”
  — Matt Fradd (77:02)
• “The loss of community is the single greatest factor in the decline of religion.”
  — Michael Knowles (78:31)
• “Whoever sins is a slave to sin. The Lord is calling me to love my wife and to love my children and to put them above other things.”
  — Matt Fradd (52:38)
• “Freedom exists for the sake of love. And we can be free from things, but we are also free for things.”
  — Matt Fradd (50:34)

Segment Timestamps for Key Themes

• Civil discourse, definitions, and engaging atheism/agnosticism: 02:00 – 06:41
• Limits of skepticism, properly basic beliefs, doubt: 07:59 – 12:22
• Catholic & Jewish rationality, problem of evil: 16:13 – 19:47
• Comparative religion, revelation, law & doctrine: 21:50 – 26:43
• Public perceptions of sin and mercy: 28:11 – 29:37
• Pornography, human dignity, embodiedness: 31:40 – 36:19
• Morality, pragmatism vs. idealism in law: 36:19 – 42:25
• Freedom, virtue, and societal roles: 48:33 – 53:04
• Dangers to religion today and loss of mission: 53:44 – 58:17
• Ritual practice & communal anchoring: 61:28 – 68:21
• Proselytism, inter-religious ethics: 69:06 – 75:06
• Community, transmission of values, practical formation: 76:12 – 81:01

Conclusion

This episode navigates profound questions about living out faith in a skeptical and secular age, offering both philosophical depth and practical wisdom. Fradd and Knowles emphasize the importance of tradition, embodied practice, humility before inherited wisdom, and sustaining real-life communities as bulwarks against nihilism and atomization. The dialogue is erudite, charitable, and, at times, humorously self-effacing—a rich listen for anyone interested in questions of God, modernity, and moral formation.

For further exploration:

• Pints with Aquinas (Matt Fradd’s podcast)
• Works referenced: Thomas Aquinas, Maimonides, Plantinga, Oakeshott, Jordan Peterson

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