FLASHBACK: Destroying Matt Walsh w/ Critical Drinker

Summary

The Ben Shapiro Show

Episode: FLASHBACK: Destroying Matt Walsh w/ Critical Drinker
Release Date: June 2, 2025
Host: Ben Shapiro
Guest: Critical Drinker

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of The Ben Shapiro Show, host Ben Shapiro teams up with Critical Drinker to dismantle Matt Walsh's critique of The Lord of the Rings (LOTR) films. The discussion zeroes in on Walsh's assertion that the LOTR movies are excessively long, delving into a comprehensive analysis that defends the films' length and depth.

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Matt Walsh's Critique of Lord of the Rings

Matt Walsh, a figure within The Daily Wire's circle, has publicly criticized the LOTR films, labeling them as "too long" and questioning their overall merit. According to Shapiro, Walsh's stance is not only unfounded but also problematic given LOTR’s esteemed status.

Notable Quote:

"I need to get your take on Matt's take."
— Ben Shapiro [00:41]

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Critical Drinker’s Counterarguments

Critical Drinker addresses Walsh's main grievance about the film's length, arguing that the extensive runtime is justified by the rich and intricate plot derived from J.R.R. Tolkien's extensive literary work.

Key Points:

• The LOTR films cover a vast amount of plot material, making the length necessary.
• The extended cuts of the movies offer an even more comprehensive experience than the theatrical releases.
• Fantasy novels, like LOTR, require elaborate world-building, which naturally extends the narrative.

Notable Quotes:

"Matt seems like a nice guy, but man, he has some bad takes on media and I think this is up there with the worst of them."
— Critical Drinker [01:12]

"It should be as long as the plot dictates. And in this case, there is an awful lot of plot to get through."
— Critical Drinker [01:23]

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Ben Shapiro’s Analysis and Defense

Shapiro echoes Critical Drinker’s sentiments, emphasizing the necessity of the films' length to faithfully adapt the expansive source material. He also criticizes Walsh's broader film critiques, mentioning Katz's disparagement of The Dark Knight as another example of his contentious opinions.

Key Points:

• LOTR’s narrative complexity warrants its lengthy runtime.
• The films manage to encapsulate the essence of the books without overextending.
• Comparisons to other films highlight the unique balance LOTR achieves between storytelling and technical execution.

Notable Quotes:

"I think it's actually his second worst movie take after the Dark Knight is super overrated."
— Ben Shapiro [01:40]

"The entire series of Lord of the Rings is over a Thousand pages. I mean, it is a very, very long book."
— Ben Shapiro [02:00]

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World-Building and Cultural Depth in LOTR

The conversation delves into the exceptional world-building of LOTR, attributing much of its success to the detailed and immersive universe Tolkien created. Critical Drinker highlights the blend of various mythologies and religious elements that enrich the narrative.

Key Points:

• LOTR presents a "living, breathing" world with deep historical and cultural layers.
• The films successfully convey the vastness and complexity of Middle-earth.
• The integration of Christian symbolism and other religious motifs adds depth to the story.

Notable Quotes:

"There is so much history there. There is so many different cultures."
— Critical Drinker [02:25]

"Tolkien himself was a Catholic and obviously raised in a very different time."
— Critical Drinker [03:09]

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Filmmaking Techniques and Technological Balance

Shapiro and Critical Drinker commend Peter Jackson's filmmaking approach, particularly his judicious use of CGI and practical effects. They argue that the LOTR films strike an optimal balance between technology and storytelling, a balance that modern films sometimes fail to achieve.

Key Points:

• LOTR's use of practical effects and minimal CGI gives the films a timeless quality.
• The environmental challenges faced during filming added authenticity to the visuals.
• Modern reliance on heavy CGI can detract from storytelling, a pitfall avoided by Jackson.

Notable Quotes:

"They used CGI sparingly and they used these enormous models of, of fortresses, cities..."
— Critical Drinker [05:42]

"They just reached that apex where it was just perfectly balanced."
— Critical Drinker [06:15]

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Evaluating Matt Walsh’s Position

Critical Drinker places Walsh's critique high on the list of "hot takes," noting that targeting a universally beloved trilogy like LOTR is particularly misguided. However, he concedes a minor point regarding the portrayal of the Army of the Dead in Return of the King.

Key Points:

• Criticizing LOTR is seen as a low blow given the series' acclaim.
• The Army of the Dead’s involvement slightly deviates from the books but is deemed a necessary concession for pacing.

Notable Quotes:

"If you're going to make fun of any movie trilogy and be a detractor for it, the worst target you can possibly pick is the Lord of the Rings."
— Critical Drinker [07:02]

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Books vs. Movies: A Comparative Insight

When asked about his preference between the LOTR books and films, Critical Drinker acknowledges the superior depth and richness of the literary work while still praising the films as outstanding adaptations.

Key Points:

• The books offer a more profound and immersive experience.
• The films are considered the best possible adaptations given the constraints of the medium.

Notable Quotes:

"You're always going to get a richer experience from reading the books."
— Critical Drinker [07:54]

"These are the best movie adaptations that you could probably hope for."
— Critical Drinker [08:01]

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Conclusion

Ben Shapiro and Critical Drinker deliver a robust defense of The Lord of the Rings films, effectively countering Matt Walsh's criticisms. Their analysis underscores the importance of respecting the complexities of adaptations and appreciating the craftsmanship involved in creating an enduring cinematic masterpiece.

Final Notable Quote:

"It's just one of the joys of my life. Really appreciate it."
— Ben Shapiro [08:11]

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This episode offers a thorough examination of Matt Walsh's critiques, providing listeners with insightful arguments that not only defend The Lord of the Rings films but also celebrate the intricate artistry behind them. For fans of LOTR and thoughtful film analysis, this discussion serves as a compelling exploration of what makes these films a staple in modern cinema.

Transcript

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[Ben Shapiro]

Well, folks, since I'm off, I thought.

[Unknown Host]

That you might enjoy the full interview that I did with Critical Drinker. It's an awesome interview. It's really enjoyable and it's a nice break.

[Ben Shapiro]

So we've had a literary take on why Lord of the Rings is great and not too long. And now I need a movie expert's take on why Matt Walsh is wrong. Because if we're going to fisk somebody, we're doing it in a comprehensive fashion here. Joining us on the line is the critical drinker to analyze Matt Walsh's hot take that Lord of the Rings is bad because it is too long, among other critiques. Good to see you. How are you doing?

[Critical Drinker]

I'm good, thank you. How are you?

[Ben Shapiro]

You know, I'm doing well, except I just, I can't deal with the fact that there's a person who works for our company who has such stupid thoughts about Lord of the Rings. So I need to get your take on Matt's take.

[Critical Drinker]

I mean, Matt seems like a nice guy, but man, he has some bad takes on media and I think this is up there with the worst of them. His primary complaint seems to be that the films are too long and there and I've never held with that complaint about any movie. It should be as long as the plot dictates. And in this case there is an awful lot of plot to get through. So these movies deserve to be as long as they are. In fact, the theatrical cuts aren't even long enough. It's the extended cuts that you really want for the proper experience.

[Ben Shapiro]

I mean, I have exactly the same issue with Matt's take. I mean, I think it's actually his second worst movie take after the Dark Knight is super overrated. His other horrifyingly bad movie take. But the the whole point of the unlike the Hobbit, which is way too long because the plot does not justify the length of those films. And the book itself makes this clear. I mean, the whole series of so the Hobbit itself is about a 300 page book. The entire series of Lord of the Rings is over a Thousand pages. I mean, it is a very, very long book. And it's. It. It doesn't. The movie doesn't even cover everything that's in the book, and it's still long and it moves quickly. I mean, it's one of those movies where you finish Fellowship and you're surprised that it's over already.

[Critical Drinker]

Absolutely, yeah. And I think part of the issue is that it's a fantasy novel or, you know, it's based on a fantasy novel. And, you know, fantasy stories stand or fall based on the world that they create. It's got to be a living, breathing, believable world that's got depth to it. And that's the thing that the Lord of the Rings movies do so well. It really gets you invested in this world, and it helps you to understand that what you're seeing is just one small story in a much grander saga that's been going on for thousands of years. There is so much history there. There is so many different cultures. So much that's going on outside the scope of this narrative, it conveys all of that. And I think that's what allows people to get so immersed into these movies so effectively. And of course, it takes a lot of time to do that.

[Ben Shapiro]

One of the things that I also find weird about Matt's take on this is that obviously Matt is a very Christian person. The entire Lord of the Rings saga is filled with Christian symbolism and Christian imagery, and it's replete throughout the series. But Matt is a very literal minded movie watcher, I think.

[Critical Drinker]

I mean, Tolkien himself was a Catholic and obviously raised in a very different time when religion was still extremely prevalent in British culture. And when he set out to make this, you know, his whole goal was to create a mythology for England, which I think he did superbly, you know, and he brought in elements of paganism, of various religions, Arthurian legends, the story of Atlant, and the faith based aspect, some of his Catholicism, all brought together into this beautiful, epic story. So it's a superb piece of work.

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[Ben Shapiro]

So I want to ask you how you think that the film holds up. One of the things that I find so astonishing about Lord of the Rings is that if you watch movies that are made in that Same era, early 2000s, the CGI really doesn't hold up. It just looks bad, the cgi and really very little of it is cgi. Actually a lot of it is using things like bigotures. The methodology that Jackson used in making Lord of the Rings holds up better than much of the CGI that is currently being made today.

[Critical Drinker]

Absolutely, yeah. I think as you say, they used CGI sparingly and they used these enormous models of, of fortresses, cities, all that stuff and then just composited in the CGI on top of it. And I think these movies just came along at that perfect time when perhaps CGI hadn't developed to the point where it was ubiquitous. And so you had to rely on to an extent, older fashioned methods with a bit of that CGI mixed in and you got the perfect balance. And yeah, they did loads of location shots that a lot of the, if you watch the behind the scenes stuff shooting, especially Fellowship, it was miserable like they were slogging through snow, rain, muds, you know. But it creates this beautiful, believable world again. It gets you immersed in it. If it was done now, it would be done, like on a soundstage at Marvel, and they'd have a volume screen around them, and it would just be such a flat, uninteresting, uninvolving experience. So I think these movies are where that combination of great storytelling and gradually increasing, improving technology, they just reach that apex where it was just perfectly balanced. Now we're skewing far too much in favor of technology, and storytelling has suffered a great deal because of that.

[Ben Shapiro]

So, you know, this analysis is really useful, but I need more dunking on Matt. So you said you've seen a lot of Matt's hot takes. On the list of hot takes, where does this hot take fall?

[Critical Drinker]

This has got to be up there. I mean, if you're going to make fun of any movie trilogy and be a detractor for it, the worst target you can possibly pick is the Lord of the Rings. I mean, it's like, universally beloved. So the only thing I will side with him on to some extent is the army of the Dead in Return of the King was a little bit of a deus ex mach in the books. They're not as involved, and a lot of the things that they do kind of happen off screen. So, yeah, they do kind of come in and save the day a little bit. And it oversimplifies the battle of the Pelennor Fields, sadly. But it's what you have to do. Otherwise the movie would be like 10 hours long.

[Ben Shapiro]

So I have to ask you, also, we talked to the Tolkien expert who literally looks like a hobbit living in a hobbit hole about the Lord of the Rings books. You obviously are familiar with the books. You're familiar with the movies. Which do you prefer, the movies or the books?

[Critical Drinker]

I mean, it's such a difficult thing to compare. Like, you're always going to get a richer experience from reading the books. And I think I would always advocate for people to read more anyway, so I think you get a much deeper story from the books. So I think that is better. But I think these are the best movie adaptations that you could probably hope for.

[Ben Shapiro]

Well, I really appreciate your time, and again, I'll have you on any time to dunk on Matt. It's just one of the joys of my life. Really appreciate it.

[Critical Drinker]

My pleasure, Ben. Thank you. This is Dr. Jordan B. Peterson. Watch Parenting, available exclusively on Daily Wire.

[Ben Shapiro]

Plus, we're dealing with misbehaviors with our son.

[Critical Drinker]

Our 13 year old throws tantrums.

[Unknown Host]

Our son turned to some substance abuse.

[Critical Drinker]

Go to dailywireplus.com today.