Summary of "Taking Down Matt Walsh w/ Rev. Malcolm Guite | LOTR Extended Edition" – The Ben Shapiro Show

Release Date: April 14, 2025

In this engaging episode of The Ben Shapiro Show, host Ben Shapiro welcomes Reverend Dr. Malcolm Guite for an in-depth discussion on J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings (LOTR). The conversation delves into the literary intricacies of Tolkien's work, its cinematic adaptations, and the broader cultural and political themes embedded within the saga. Additionally, the episode features a spirited rebuttal to critiques from Matt Walsh regarding the film adaptations of LOTR.

1. Introduction to Malcolm Guite and LOTR Expertise

Ben Shapiro opens the episode by introducing Reverend Dr. Malcolm Guite, praising his expertise on The Lord of the Rings.

[00:17] Ben Shapiro: "Reverend Dr. Malcolm Guite, welcome to the show. Really appreciate your time."

Malcolm Guite expresses his enthusiasm for discussing Tolkien's work and his deep appreciation for the richness of the lore.

[00:21] Malcolm Guite: "I'll talk about talking to anyone. I'm an enthusiast."

2. Exploring Tolkien's Literary Depth and Personal Engagement

Shapiro admits to having read only sections of the LOTR books, particularly citing Tom Bombadil and the initial chapters of The Fellowship of the Ring as challenging.

[00:28] Ben Shapiro: "The reason for that is probably Tom Bombadil and the first 150 pages of fellowship."

Guite encourages Shapiro to immerse himself fully, highlighting the pleasure awaiting those who delve deeper.

[00:47] Malcolm Guite: "Lucky you. You have a great pleasure in store whenever that rich and golden time arrives, when you can get really absorbed in it."

Shapiro shares his intention to read the books with his children, emphasizing the generational impact of Tolkien's storytelling.

[01:00] Ben Shapiro: "I'm definitely going to start reading it with my kids right now."

3. The Significance of Language and Imagination in LOTR

Guite elaborates on Tolkien's prowess as a linguist and philologist, emphasizing the intricate use of language in shaping Middle-earth.

[01:40] Malcolm Guite: "Tolkien was a linguist, he was a philologist, he loved languages. He cherished words."

He underscores that beyond the rich vocabulary, Tolkien's storytelling invites readers to engage their own imaginations, creating personal interpretations of characters and settings.

[03:00] Malcolm Guite: "What you're drawing on is deeper, deeper images from inside yourself about good or evil, about a true path or a false one."

4. Tolkien's War Experiences and Their Influence on Middle-earth

The discussion shifts to how Tolkien's experiences as a young officer in World War I influenced his creation of Middle-earth.

[05:28] Malcolm Guite: "He was processing his war memories... it's about heroic virtue and courage."

Guite contrasts Tolkien and C.S. Lewis's portrayal of heroism with the bleakness depicted by war poets like Wilfred Owen, highlighting Tolkien's belief in enduring human nobility amidst chaos.

[06:45] Malcolm Guite: "They saw hideous action... but they came out and wrote stories in which it was still possible to have heroic courage."

5. Political Allegories and Themes in LOTR

Guite addresses the misconception that LOTR serves as a direct political allegory, noting that while it isn't a one-to-one representation, it subtly reflects contemporary political climates.

[10:30] Malcolm Guite: "It's not a political allegory, but it's great myth written at such a deep level that it continuously suggests incipient allegories."

He discusses themes of leadership, corruption, and the struggle between good and evil, using characters like Gandalf and Saruman to illustrate how power can be wielded responsibly or abused.

[11:50] Malcolm Guite: "How do you be the kind of wizard who has more power than the people he's advising but doesn't want to exploit them? Gandalf is an example of that."

6. Differences Between the Books and Film Adaptations

The conversation turns to the cinematic interpretations of LOTR, with Ben referencing Matt Walsh's critique that the films are overly lengthy.

[21:58] Ben Shapiro: "Matt Walsh had been very critical of the movies mainly along the lines of they're too long."

Guite counters by arguing that the films may actually benefit from extended runtimes, allowing a more faithful and comprehensive adaptation of Tolkien's expansive narrative.

[22:07] Malcolm Guite: "I don't think the movies are too long. I mean, I could have done with more."

He specifically mentions the omission of significant book elements like Tom Bombadil and The Scouring of the Shire, suggesting that their exclusion resulted in a less complete portrayal of the story's depth.

7. The Scouring of the Shire: A Missed Opportunity in the Films

Ben probes into what The Scouring of the Shire entails and evaluates its exclusion from the film adaptations.

[15:32] Malcolm Guite: "The Scouring of the Shire is not in the movie at all."

Guite explains that this segment depicts the Hobbits returning home to find their beloved Shire ravaged by Saruman’s influence, symbolizing the fight against centralized oppression and industrialization.

[15:43] Malcolm Guite: "Saruman goes to the Shire and manages to set himself up as some sort of proto ruler and starts wantonly destroying... turning them into workers."

He argues that including this portion in the films would have enriched the narrative by showcasing the Hobbits' resilience and the restoration of their idyllic lives post-adventure.

8. Final Thoughts and Rebuttal to Matt Walsh

Wrapping up, Ben appreciates Guite's insights, particularly in countering Matt Walsh's assertions about the film's length.

[23:18] Ben Shapiro: "It's been a pleasure to have you here, especially to rebut my friend Matt Walsh."

Guite reinforces his stance by reiterating that the films are not too long and that the depth of the books offers much more to explore.

[23:36] Ben Shapiro: "I now know my plan for Friday night, so I really appreciate it, sir."

Conclusion

This episode provides a comprehensive exploration of The Lord of the Rings, highlighting the profound literary craftsmanship of J.R.R. Tolkien and the nuanced differences between the original works and their film adaptations. Reverend Dr. Malcolm Guite's expertise offers listeners a deeper appreciation of the thematic and linguistic richness of LOTR, while also engaging in a thoughtful critique of contemporary opinions on its cinematic interpretations.

Notable Quotes:

• [00:17] Ben Shapiro: "Reverend Dr. Malcolm Guite, welcome to the show. Really appreciate your time."

• [01:40] Malcolm Guite: "Tolkien was a linguist, he was a philologist, he loved languages. He cherished words."

• [05:28] Malcolm Guite: "He was processing his war memories... it's about heroic virtue and courage."

• [10:30] Malcolm Guite: "It's not a political allegory, but it's great myth written at such a deep level that it continuously suggests incipient allegories."

• [15:43] Malcolm Guite: "Saruman goes to the Shire and manages to set himself up as some sort of proto ruler and starts wantonly destroying... turning them into workers."

• [23:18] Ben Shapiro: "It's been a pleasure to have you here, especially to rebut my friend Matt Walsh."

• [23:36] Ben Shapiro: "I now know my plan for Friday night, so I really appreciate it, sir."

This detailed summary encapsulates the essence of the episode, providing listeners with comprehensive insights into the discussion on The Lord of the Rings, its deeper meanings, and the critical perspectives surrounding its film adaptations.