The Ben Shapiro Show: THESE Are The Greatest Stories Ever Told w/ Jonathan Pageau

Air Date: December 23, 2025
Host: Ben Shapiro | Guest: Jonathan Pageau

Episode Overview

In this Sunday Special episode, Ben Shapiro hosts Jonathan Pageau, a French-Canadian liturgical artist, author, and Orthodox Christian thinker, to explore the enduring power of fairy tales and biblical stories, their symbolism, and their fundamental roles in shaping culture and civilization. Pageau delves into how ancient narratives like "Jack and the Beanstalk" reveal deep truths about human experience, the dangers of distorting these stories for modern ideologies, and the relationship between reason, meaning, and civilization. Together, Shapiro and Pageau dissect how our current society's approach to storytelling reflects, and perhaps contributes to, its growing fragmentation and cultural sterility.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Significance and Structure of Fairy Tales

• Fairy Tales as Descendants of Biblical Stories

  • Pageau explains the cultural function of fairy tales, describing them as "downstream from the Bible" and using accessible, fantastical imagery to impart similar patterns and truths (03:26).
  • Quote:

    "Fairy tales...use a type of language which is simple, similar to biblical stories, but they're more accessible...They actually have patterns that describe the cosmos in a deep way."
    — Jonathan Pageau (03:26)

• Why Fairy Tales Are Uncomfortable in Modern Times

  • Both note that guardians of fairy tales have stopped promoting them due to ideological discomfort, failing to recognize their timeless role and symbolism.

2. Magic, Prayer, and Meaning

• Interpreting Magic in Fairy Tales and Religion

  • Pageau posits that "magic" denotes higher causality—the impact of meaning and language on reality, akin to how speaking instructions to a child alters your world (05:34–06:48).
  • He distinguishes between the misuse of supernatural "power" for personal gain (prohibited in Scripture) and the proper role of aligning oneself with transcendent meaning.

• Prayer: Magic or Transformation?

  • Shapiro contrasts "gumball machine" prayer (asking God for things) with the deeper aim: prayer changes the supplicant, aligning one's desires with the divine will (07:14–08:19).

  • Quote:

    "...when you are attempting to manipulate God, that is a sort of weird form of dark magic and it's not going to work out well for you. And when you are attempting to align yourself with God, that's a completely different thing."
    — Ben Shapiro (07:14)

  • Pageau emphasizes that effective prayer is linked with confession, transformation, and a shift in one's desires toward the good of others.

3. A Deep Read of "Jack and the Beanstalk"

• Coming of Age, Masculinity, and Cosmic Patterns

  • Pageau provides a symbolic interpretation: Jack's journey reflects the transition from boyhood to manhood, parallels biblical motifs of ascension and obtaining wisdom, and touches on "Promethean" overreach (10:17–15:14).

  • Themes:

    • Trading the "feminine" (the cow) for "seed" (potential) at puberty
    • Encounter with the giant as entering the world of masculine hierarchy
    • Quest for increasingly refined "goods": gold, then the chicken (source of gold), then the harp (intangible pattern/music of the spheres/logos)
    • The dangerous allure of seizing divine patterns for oneself, echoing both biblical and mythic warnings

  • Quote:

    "He's getting patterns of being. And now he gets the highest pattern, for all intents and purposes. He gets what, you know, what we call the music of the spheres..."
    — Jonathan Pageau (13:54)

4. The Modern Hollowing Out of Fairy Tales

• Darkness in Classic vs. Sanitized Modern Storytelling

  • Shapiro and Pageau critique Disney's evolution from confronting children with real darkness (e.g., "Snow White," "Pinocchio") to presenting sanitized, ideologically driven narratives devoid of real villains or struggle (15:14–18:58).

  • Shapiro's contrast between Pinocchio ("let your conscience be your guide") and "Let It Go" ("no right, no wrong, no rules, I'm free") as markers of a shift from duty to narcissistic libertinism.

  • Quote:

    "There are deep reflections of reality that have been built up over millennia, you know, and we have to...treat them with respect, because if not, they're going to turn against us."
    — Jonathan Pageau (18:58)

5. Roles, Identity, and the Breakdown of Civilization

• Role Theory and the Importance of Structure

  • Shapiro advances his view that human beings are born into universal roles (child, citizen, spouse, etc.). The rejection of roles for pure "authenticity" (desire) leads to chaos and atomization (22:37–24:16).

  • Pageau concurs, noting that ancient citizenship was understood as a role with corresponding responsibilities—not just a set of rights (24:16–24:51).

  • Quote:

    "The minute that liberty becomes a universal asset that destroys the roles. The minute that that happens, it's no longer liberty now it's libertinism and everything descends into chaos."
    — Ben Shapiro (24:01)

6. The Shadow Side: Entitlement, Rebellion, and the Adamic Impulse

• From Obligation to Entitlement
  • Pageau and Shapiro consider the consequences of a society that teaches everyone "I'm owed"—pleasure, rights, even God's status—comparing it to the archetypal act of Adam and Eve taking the fruit (26:06–27:29).
  • Shapiro frames radical individual autonomy as a "satanic idea," referencing Milton: it's better to "reign in hell than serve in heaven."

7. Mythic Patterns in Genesis and Cultural Memory

• Cain and Abel, Civilization, and the City Builder

  • The biblical story of Cain confronts the perennial struggle between envy and emulation, destruction and creation (27:29–29:14).
    • Cain fails God's test, lashes out at Abel, but ultimately repents and becomes the first city builder—a complex legacy resonating through Western civilization.

• The Enduring Need for Stories

  • Pageau encourages a return to ancient stories, noting:

    "The stories in Genesis are ... some of the most powerful stories that have ever been told..."
    — Jonathan Pageau (29:14)

  • The conversation moves to how the struggles within biblical stories (insider/outsider, law and mercy) are replayed and revised throughout scripture—and remain puzzles for modern society.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Fairy Tales and the Cosmos:

  "They actually have patterns that describe the cosmos in a deep way."
  — Jonathan Pageau (03:26)

• On the Dangers of Misusing Power:

  "...using the power of meaning to twist reality and to, you know, to use spiritual powers for your own sake."
  — Jonathan Pageau (06:48)

• On Prayer's True Role:

  "The prayer changes you. You're aligning yourself with God's will."
  — Ben Shapiro (07:14)

• On the Evolution of Disney:

  "Now it's all kind of the same theme. ...there really isn't a villain. There's just somebody who's sort of misunderstood..."
  — Ben Shapiro (15:14)

• On Modern Entitlement:

  "It's a kind of diabolical insight, which is that I'm owed this. I'm owed whatever. ...And then ultimately it really is. I should be God."
  — Jonathan Pageau (26:06)

• On Civilizational Contracts:

  "Civilization is a contract between those who have died and those who are not yet born."
  — Ben Shapiro (27:29)

Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |------------|-----------------------------------------------------| | 03:26 | Fairy tales and their biblical roots | | 05:34 | Meaning of magic in stories and religion | | 07:14 | The nature and purpose of prayer | | 10:17 | Deep read: "Jack and the Beanstalk" symbolism | | 15:14 | Disney's evolution: Darkness to ideological blandness| | 18:58 | Importance of respecting mythological patterns | | 22:37 | Roles, identity, and the structure of civilization | | 26:06 | The entitlement mentality and the Adamic impulse | | 27:29 | Cain and Abel, city building, and foundational myths| | 29:14 | Recapturing ancient stories for today's society |

Dramatic Closing (31:21–33:07)

The episode includes an interlude/reading from a dramatic narrative, likely tied to Pageau’s work, presenting a mythical conversation touching on sacrifice, the search for miracles, hope in Christ, and the eternal struggle between light and darkness. This segment underscores the episode's themes: the power of myth, the burden of destiny, and the quest for redemption.

Conclusion

Ben Shapiro and Jonathan Pageau paint a compelling picture of why ancient stories—whether biblical or fairy tale—remain essential for human flourishing. Their conversation warns of the perils of reducing stories to ideological caricatures or abandoning them for atomistic modernity. Instead, they call for a renewed engagement with the great patterns, symbols, and structures that have shaped culture and the soul across millennia.

For listeners seeking depth on myth, culture, and the crossroads of faith and reason, this episode stands as a thoughtful and lively exploration.