🧀 Goldfish Crackers: The Most Romantic Snack | 24

Summary

Summary of "🧀 Goldfish Crackers: The Most Romantic Snack | Episode 24"

The Best Idea Yet podcast by Wondery dives deep into the heartwarming and strategic journey behind one of America's favorite snacks: Goldfish Crackers. Hosts Nick Martell and Jack Crevici Kramer unravel the rich history, entrepreneurial spirit, and innovative marketing that transformed Goldfish from a simple homemade treat into a $1 billion brand.

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1. A Romantic Beginning

The episode opens with a personal anecdote from Jack Crevici Kramer about his romantic gesture to win his wife’s heart. This tale of love and determination sets the stage for the Goldfish story, highlighting how personal motivations can lead to monumental business ideas.

Jack Crevici Kramer [00:18]: "It's gotta be that extravagant gesture... I say, guys, it's about a girl. I gotta get in there."

2. The Founding of Pepperidge Farm

Margaret Rudkin, the visionary founder of Pepperidge Farm, emerges as the central figure. In 1937, facing the Great Depression and her son Mark's severe asthma, Margaret sought to find healthier bread alternatives. Her journey from a bank bookkeeper to a trailblazing businesswoman underscores her resilience and ingenuity.

Nick Martell [05:50]: "Margaret became the first female employee in this brokerage firm's history."

3. Transitioning to a Working Farm

In 1926, Margaret and her husband Henry purchase a 125-acre farm in Fairfield, Connecticut. Despite the initial setbacks of economic downturns and Henry's polo accident, Margaret pivots Pepperidge Farm from a leisurely estate to a thriving commercial bakery, demonstrating her ability to adapt under pressure.

Jack Crevici Kramer [08:13]: "With her husband recovering from his injuries, Margaret sells off the horses and lays off the help."

4. The Birth of Goldfish Crackers

The pivotal moment arrives during Margaret's European tour aboard the Queen Mary in the early 1950s. In Belgium, she encounters the Delacre Company's sophisticated biscuits, inspiring her to create a unique snack that would resonate globally. This encounter leads to a strategic licensing deal, allowing Pepperidge Farm to introduce Goldfish Crackers to the United States.

Jack Crevici Kramer [16:14]: "Delac has been dishing out authentic Belgian biscuits since 1891."

5. Launching Goldfish in the U.S.

In 1962, Pepperidge Farm launches Goldfish Crackers in the U.S., tailored to American tastes with flavors like cheese and barbecue. Initially marketed as a sophisticated party snack for adults, Goldfish found unexpected popularity among bar-goers and even celebrities like Julia Child.

Nick Martell [27:36]: "Margaret launches with five different flavors right out of the gate. Cheese, barbecue, pizza, smoky, along with that lightly salted original."

6. Marketing Pivot to Children

Goldfish's true breakthrough came in 1977 when Pepperidge Farm rebranded them as a children's snack. Introducing smiling faces on the crackers, based on insights from a Yale psychologist, made Goldfish irresistibly appealing to kids. This strategic shift not only captured a new demographic but also solidified Goldfish's place in school lunches and family homes.

Jack Crevici Kramer [34:21]: "They're literally baking a smile onto the crackers themselves. Not every fish has a smile. Only about 4 in 10 do."

7. Embracing Nostalgia and Modern Marketing

As generations passed, Goldfish adeptly leveraged nostalgia while embracing contemporary marketing strategies. Collaborations with brands like Hello Kitty and limited-edition flavors resonated with Generation Z, doubling sales through what the hosts call the "wingman strategy."

Jack Crevici Kramer [38:06]: "Goldfish and Sriracha, maybe Goldfish and Peeps before Easter? We'd love to hear your ideas."

8. Reflections and Lessons Learned

The hosts reflect on Margaret Rudkin’s legacy, emphasizing the importance of curiosity, adaptability, and strategic vision in entrepreneurship. Jack advises listeners to "be a talent scout no matter where you are," inspired by Margaret's ability to discover and capitalize on opportunities beyond her immediate environment.

Jack Crevici Kramer [39:38]: "My takeaway is be a talent scout no matter where you are."

Nick adds that successful products must remain flexible in their target markets to sustain long-term success, advising to "use a pendulum" rather than "an arrow" when aiming for demographic shifts.

Nick Martell [40:21]: "The products that are able to shift their target markets are the ones that last. So don't use an arrow. Use a pendulum."

9. Fascinating Facts about Goldfish

In the Best Fact Yet segment, the hosts share intriguing tidbits:

• Ralph Hauenstein, the creator of the Goldfish machine sold to Pepperidge Farm, was a spy and codebreaker during WWII.
• Willard, Ohio, dubbed the "Goldfish capital of the world," houses a Pepperidge Farm Bakery that produces over 50 million Goldfish daily.
• In 1988, Goldfish Crackers journeyed into space aboard the space shuttle Discovery.

Jack Crevici Kramer [41:03]: "Look up the story. You won't be sorry we mentioned that big factory over in Utah, but it's the town of Willard, Ohio, that Campbell's calls the goldfish capital of the world."

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Conclusion

Episode 24 of The Best Idea Yet beautifully encapsulates how a simple passion project, driven by love and resilience, can evolve into a globally recognized brand. Goldfish Crackers are not just a snack but a testament to Margaret Rudkin’s enduring legacy of innovation, adaptability, and strategic foresight. This narrative serves as an inspiring blueprint for aspiring entrepreneurs and a delightful journey for snack enthusiasts.

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For those fascinated by Goldfish Crackers and the stories behind other beloved products, be sure to follow The Best Idea Yet on the Wondery App or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Nick Martell]

Wondery plus subscribers can listen to the best idea yet, early and ad free right now.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[Nick Martell]

Jack, most romantic thing you've ever done. What do you got?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's gotta be that extravagant gesture. Early in the game with Alex, who's now my wife, I made a big move to win her love. I'd met Alex just two weeks prior in Vermont, so I'd only seen her once, but. And we both knew we were going to be in New York City in two weeks. It's Saturday night, I'm hanging out with buddies. She texts me that she's at the Mets game. So I go to Grand Central, transfer to the 7 train, go all the way out to Flush and Queen.

[Nick Martell]

And you buy a ticket for the game?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Not quite. So I find the ticket office and I go in there and I say, hey, is there any way I can get into the game? And they're like, dude, it's the bottom of the seventh inning.

[Nick Martell]

Tomorrow you can get into the next game.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And I say, guys, it's about a girl. I gotta get in there. The guy looks at me and he goes, is it just you? And I say, yes. He turns his head the other way and slides a ticket across the table. Wow. So I'm in this random box behind third base. Guess what? I see Alex. She's in the same box as me. So I jump over a couple of rows and I say, hey, I'm here.

[Nick Martell]

She's like, how'd you even get in here? Game's almost done.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I know. It was incredible.

[Nick Martell]

Yada, yada, yada. Four years later, Jack marries this girl, and it all is because he made a plea to the ticket guy at a Mets game in the bottom of the seventh. Well, perfect timing, because today's story was made possible by just such a romantic gesture. But we're not talking about champagne or a box of chocolates or late Met tickets to surprise some girl at a game. We are talking about goldfish.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I love the fishes because it's so delicious.

[Nick Martell]

I'm goldfish.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Goldfish. Fantastic fish. Excellent cracker.

[Nick Martell]

And it is the cracker we are going to be talking about, by the way, not the contents of your neighbor's koi pond. Jack goldfish fan. Yes. No.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I've bitten off a few tails of my day.

[Nick Martell]

I once traded five warheads for three goldfish, so I'm pretty sure that qualifies as big on goldfish. Goldfish are having a major business moment right now. Owned by Campbell's the $12 billion food company goldfish accounts for one quarter of Campbell's total snack sales. These goldfish are swimming faster than all the other snacks in the Campbell's portfolio. And yes, that includes Snyder's Pretzels, Pop Secret, and Kettle Chips.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And this domination of the snack landscape has officially made goldfish a $1 billion brand.

[Nick Martell]

And now, Jack, we should point out that when you picture a Goldfish cracker, you're probably imagining a classic orange cheddar fish with a little smile on its face. Pairs well with school lunches, field trips, or the ultimate play date. But we discovered that goldfish were not always cheese flavored. Oh, and they were not always smiling. Oh, and they were not always for kids.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Goldfish actually started over in Switzerland as a romantic gesture between a baker and and his wife.

[Nick Martell]

These crackers were dreamed up by one of the original wife guys, but they became a global phenomenon because of Pepperidge Farm.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That's right. The architects of Milano Cookies and the Chesapeake's are also responsible for bringing these goldfishies across the Atlantic.

[Nick Martell]

For us to really tell the untold story of goldfish, we need to look at Pepperidge Farms founder, who, fun fact, is not a folksy old guy in suspenders with the straw hat.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Before we started researching this story, that's exactly who I thought was behind Pepperidge Farm.

[Nick Martell]

Well, it turns out Pepperidge Farms founder was actually a businesswoman named Margaret Rudkin, who was way ahead of her time. She blazed trails and she took names, all while advocating for women in the workplace. Thanks to Margaret's hustle and insane ingenuity, Goldfish went from a bartender's best friend to a lunchbox fave to the official cracker of Gen Z. And yes, hello Kitty Goldfish will be making an appearance. I just can't wait to dive in at this point.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Deep dive, baby.

[Nick Martell]

We're gonna need a bigger boat.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Here's why Goldfish crackers is the best idea yet.

[Nick Martell]

From Wondery and T Boy. I'm Nick Martel.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And I'm Jack Crevici Kramer.

[Nick Martell]

And this is the best idea yet. The untold origin stories of the products.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

You'Re obsessed with and the bold risk takers that brought them to life.

[Nick Martell]

I got that feeling again.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Something familiar, but no, we got it coming to you.

[Nick Martell]

I got that feeling again.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

They changed the game in one more Yetis.

[Nick Martell]

We wanna thank Lenovo for being the presenting sponsor of your favorite show ever.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This show, the Lenovo Aura Edition AI PC imagined with Intel. It's possible on your Intel AI PC.

[Nick Martell]

So learn more about the Lenovo Aura Edition AI PCs at lenovo.com aura In a tiny doctor's office in Fairfield, Connecticut, a little boy is squirming around as a cold stethoscope touches his chest. It's 1937, and Margaret Rudkin is worried about her youngest son. Mark is what people in the 1930s would call sickly with digestive problems and asthma. So Margaret has brought him to a specialist to find out what's wrong. Mark is fussing and wiggling as the doc just tries to push a tongue depressor into his mouth until Margaret leans over and in a firm voice tells him to be still. And Mark obeys his mother. You see, she is not someone you want to mess with.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

His mother is Margaret, born Margaret Fogarty, the oldest of five in a big Irish family living in New York City. Her granny taught her how to bake, but Margaret's ambitions would take her way beyond the kitchen.

[Nick Martell]

Margaret graduated valedictorian of her high school class and then got to work as a bookkeeper for a local bank. She gets promoted all the way up the chain and then gets hired away by a big time Wall street brokerage firm. Margaret became the first female employee in this brokerage firm's history. And this is 1919.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

One year before women could even vote in the United States. And yet this young woman is balancing the books for the financial elite of New York City. Now, eventually, she meets a stockbroker named Henry Rudkin and they get married. And as the firm and the market do well, so do the redkins.

[Nick Martell]

So in 1926, following in the tradition of many Wall street elite, Margaret and Henry go Connecticut casual and they buy a farm up in Fairfield, Connecticut. Not just any farm though, Jack. This is a 125 acre plot with a Pepperidge tree right in the front yard.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Man, real estate was so much easier in the 1920s. But naturally, with that gigantic Pepperidge tree in the middle of the property, they call the place Pepperidge Farm.

[Nick Martell]

But this newly bougie finance couple isn't quite ready to put on overalls and get dirt under their nails. Instead, the Rutkins hire full time staff for this country home. Margaret ends up leaving her bookkeeping job and then she and Henry, they take up some genteel sports like polo, hunting, and if we have time, a little bit of riding. They also have three sons in five years, all while looking fabulous in some nits and tweed.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So far, Nick, this sounds like Margaret's pulled off the Connecticut dream. Totally picturing a Hallmark video and smelling.

[Nick Martell]

Freshly Baked bread inside, it's the blueberry muffins, Jack. But if this is a Hallmark movie as you describe it, then the Act 2 twist is a doozy. Because in 1929, the booming stock market that they've depended on crashes, triggering the Great Depression.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The Great Depression. It's a recurring character in this podcast series. Few forces seem to drive entrepreneurial pivots more than a good old fashioned financial meltdown.

[Nick Martell]

And Jack, the Great Depression. It hits the Rudkin household hard because when the stock market nosedives a brokerage firm. Yeah, it isn't the best place to work.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

To make matters worse, Henry suffers a terrible polo accident.

[Nick Martell]

He's unable to work, so he actually goes six months with zero income. And so, just like that, their storybook existence begins to collapse.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

With her husband recovering from his injuries, Margaret sells off the horses and lays off the help. Suddenly, the farm is no longer a fun lifestyle choice. The farm is the key to the Rudkin survival. It's time to turn Pepperidge Farm into an actual working farm.

[Nick Martell]

She's trading those tweeds in for denim overalls and starts selling apples from the orchard and chickens from the coop. She also takes over cooking for the entire family, reviving recipes from her youth. She keeps the whole family afloat in the kitchen and out at the farmer's market. And finally, once her husband heals up and returns to work, it seems like they may just pull through. Margaret was the hero her family needed.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And this brings us to the moment when their youngest child, Mark, gets sick. And we're not just talking seasonal allergies or like a gluten sensitivity. This is severe asthma and intestinal distress. These conditions are dangerous for kids today, but back then, they could be life threatening.

[Nick Martell]

So back in the stuffy doctor's office with the tongue depressors and the stethoscopes, Margaret listens carefully to the doc's advice. It turns out Mark has food allergies. Specifically, he is allergic to the store bought white bread. You know, like the kind that's been dominating the grocery shelves right at that exact moment.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

You know the saying, greatest thing since sliced bread? Well, not for Mark, because the bread we're talking about is the processed bread with bleached white flour, with sugar and tons of preservatives. The stuff that can sit on the shelf for weeks and not go bad.

[Nick Martell]

These shelf stable loaves, like Wonder Bread, they've been replacing the homemade bread in American grocery stores. Cheap to buy and basically never goes bad. That is a great deal for Depression era families.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Even though it can be a terrible deal for your digestive system.

[Nick Martell]

Well, now it's making Mark sick. So Margaret, she makes a decision. If store bought bread is the problem, then Margaret is going to bake it herself. Jack, remember how we said Margaret learned to bake from her Irish grandma? She ends up finding Granny Fogarty's recipe for a whole wheat bread buried in an old recipe box.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Margaret gets her ingredients ready. This isn't going to be some run of the mill loaf.

[Nick Martell]

Here she's making bread to improve her son's health and maybe even save her son's life. So goodbye to the bleached white flour and hello to the whole grains and wheat berries, which she hand grinds herself with a coffee grinder. And those wheat berries are the key to upping this bread's health factor. But Margaret's first attempt at baking with these wheat berries. You know what, Jack? We've got a quote directly from Margaret that explains it.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That first love should have been sent to the Smithsonian Institute institution as a sample of bread from the Stone Age, for it was hard as a rock at about 1 inch high. So the first loaf of bread, not great.

[Nick Martell]

But Margaret keeps practicing. In fact, her husband Henry, he's now fully recovered from that whole polo accident, and he starts making the bread too, basically turning it into a competitive baking challenge. This is like marital Top Chef. And it's Bobby Flavor's Barefoot Contessa.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Eventually, Margot locks in on a recipe with stone ground wheat flour, molasses, honey, and plenty of milk and butter. Great ingredients that sound the opposite of what goes into Wonder Bread.

[Nick Martell]

So she brings this new bread to her child's doctor, and he is so impressed that he orders loaves for himself and his patients. Pretty soon, Margaret is dominating the bread game in Fairfield County.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So Margaret sells her health bread at the local grocery store. And in a move you might recognize from our Ben and Jerry's episode, she sells her bread as a premium product, 25 cents a loaf. Instead of the going rate of 10 cents.

[Nick Martell]

She's sending a signal with that price that her bread is the Louis Vuitton of bread. Because Margaret's bread uses fresh, high quality ingredients. It costs more and it's worth more. So she tests the market's willingness to pay double the price. And you know what they do.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Henry starts taking loaves to specialty shops near Grand Central Terminal during his commute into the city.

[Nick Martell]

And these lows, they are all being hand baked by Margaret and a single assistant. She's like one of those TikTok influencers, Jack, whipping out Starter dough?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Yeah. Except within a year, she's selling 4,000 loaves a week.

[Nick Martell]

By 1940, three years into their venture, Margaret sells her millionth loaf of bread.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And to meet increasing demand, Margaret decides to borrow $15,000, a huge amount in 1940 for a brand new factory in Norwalk, Connecticut. And she hires women for her production lines, growing to 125 women during World War II. In just three years, this has grown from a kitchen project to a booming commercial bakery.

[Nick Martell]

She hires women intentionally, not just because it's wartime. She wants people to get used to the idea of women in the workplace. And to accommodate all these female employees, she offers flexible hours, a policy that still feels modern 80 years later.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The young unmarried workers that she employs take the morning shifts, while the mothers that she employs work after school hours. When older kids can babysit this bread.

[Nick Martell]

Company in the 40s, what they're doing is actually one of the most overlooked aspects of scaling any business recruiting. Because offering flexible schedules, it's still a strategy Fortune 500 companies use to attract workers. I mean, Uber and Lyft, their flexible hours are literally front and center of all their recruitment campaigns to get drivers.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's just wild to think that these conversations CEOs are still having right now. Margaret Rudkin worked out back in the 1940s for her bread factory.

[Nick Martell]

Thanks to her premium product and her committed workforce, Pepperidge Farm is flourishing. Ten years after she made that very first rock hard loaf, Margaret opens a second factory that can churn out up to 40,000 loaves an hour.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But Margaret knows that Pepperidge Farm can't coast on one product forever. She instinctively understands what Nick and I call the able principle. Always be launching everything A, B, L, E. She needs to diversify. Somewhere out there, the next Pepperidge Farm product is waiting. And it might just be the company's ticket to long term survival.

[Nick Martell]

Margaret and Henry Rutkin, loving couple and successful bred entrepreneurs, hold hands as they stand on the deck of the historic ocean liner, the Queen Mary. It's the early 50s and they're on their way to Europe. Sea spray on their faces, wind in their hair as their ship glides across the Atlantic. This. This is their Leo and Kate moment.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And this isn't some random vacation or even a second honeymoon. Margaret is on a tasting tour of Europe to find Pepperidge Farm's next big thing.

[Nick Martell]

Does that mean the whole trip's a write off, Jack?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I think that means it's all expensive, yeah. Margaret wants to diversify her company's offerings, and she's decided that after being a pure play bread business, cookies and snacks are the complimentary next step.

[Nick Martell]

Unfortunately, her first attempts at cookie baking go about as well as her first rock hard loaf of bread.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The cookies are edible that she bakes, but they're also just ordinary. And ordinary is not part of Pepperidge Farm's brand story.

[Nick Martell]

Margaret's company, remember, it was built on a premium bread product, launching a just okay cookie. That ain't gonna cut it. So Margaret and her husband take trips to explore the great cities of Europe for inspiration. We're thinking Paris for the croissants. To stop over in Milan for the cornetti. Maybe a little taste of West Berlin. You get one of those Berliners, Jack. Great donut. And finally, these travels lead the rudkins over to Belgium, where Margaret finds the cookie bakers who serve the famous Belgian royal court.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The name of these royal bakers, the Delacre Company. Or as they say, en francais. Delac.

[Nick Martell]

Stuck the landing on that pronunciation, Jack. Now, Delac has been dishing out authentic Belgian biscuits since 1891.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Or Al Francais bisque, which means cookie over there.

[Nick Martell]

And Delacres bisqueeze are made of layers of shortbread and dark chocolate in distinctive varieties. Now, this word distinctive is key. This ain't no Delta Airlines biscoff we're talking about.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Margaret takes one bite of these cookies and suddenly she can picture her future production lines turning out row after row of petite, flaky cookies you can serve up with tea. America is going to flip out when they get a taste of these bisque.

[Nick Martell]

Margaret has found Pepperidge Farm's next big product. She can feel it. So she has a little chat with the head of the Delacre company. And what actually gets said is a little bit of a mystery. But when she's through with that chat, Delacre has agreed to give her their secret recipes to use at Pepperidge Farm.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Margaret basically coaxes all their trade secrets out of this royal bakery.

[Nick Martell]

Now, you would think that in exchange for these secret recipes, the Belgian company might ask for, you know, like a profit sharing deal or maybe even a.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Steak in Margaret's company cookie for equity. It sounds fair, but that's not what happens. Margaret basically sweet talks the Delacre company into giving her all their recipes for a simple licensing fee.

[Nick Martell]

That's it. She even gets them to send their best bakers to the United States to oversee production. She definitely got the better part of this deal.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So in 1955, Margaret launches the first six varieties of Pepperidge Farm distinctive cookies. She gives them each European names like Biarritz, Bordeaux and Brussels. This is something that works in America. Time and time again, European ish branding tends to signal high end sophistication. We fall for it every time.

[Nick Martell]

Like Haagen Dazs ice cream. Seems like a fancy Scandinavian ice cream. Actually, it's a totally made up word.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I mean, who wants a boring sandwich cookie when you could have a Milano within five years, These cookies are being sold across the United States thanks to the deal that Margaret cut with Delacre.

[Nick Martell]

Now we know what you're thinking, because we were wondering it too. What happened here? Like, how did Delacre ever agree to this lopsided trade secret deal?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's possible they just underestimated her. Like, they didn't see her as a serious competitor. They saw her as a mom who liked to bake. So maybe they sent the intern to negotiate with her.

[Nick Martell]

Right? Maybe they just thought, hey, it's a sweet middle aged lady from America, she likes finger foods and she's just trying to upscale scale her home. Tea time.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But under that sweet exterior, Margaret is a shark. And this shark is about to pick up the scent of a much smaller fish.

[Nick Martell]

Jack, I think I smell a goldfish.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

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[Jack Crevici Kramer]

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[Nick Martell]

Learn more about Lenovo Aura Edition AI [e-mail] Aura okay, besties, to get to the goldfish, we're going to have to hop back in time and across a few border. Follow us if you will, over to Switzerland to the year 1906. Albert Einstein is working over in the Swiss patent office and he's dreaming up his theory of relativity. And over in a tiny farming village outside the Emmental region, a young Swiss baker named Oscar Campbey is falling in love.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Emmental is famous for its skiing and its distinctive holi cheese.

[Nick Martell]

But when Oscar the baker moves there, it's not for the apres ski scene.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Or for the cheese makers.

[Nick Martell]

No, it is to be near the dark haired young woman who he intends to make his wife.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Oscar comes to work for the village's local baker. And it turns out Oscar's really good at his job.

[Nick Martell]

He's so good, in fact, that by 1910 this guy is running the bakery, which he up converts into an entire biscuit factory.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This factory marks the official start of the Cambly company.

[Nick Martell]

The business survives two world wars, and in 1953, Oscar Campbey hands the company reigns over to his son, Oscar Cambly ii. And Oscar too is just as much of a romantic as his dad was.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

He marries a woman he's head over heels for. A woman who happens to be born in March.

[Nick Martell]

Now, when Oscar's wife's birthday rolls around in 1958, Oscar Jr. Decides to get a little bit creative. A March birthday. That means she's a Pisces whose astrological symbol is of course, a fish.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I would know because I am one.

[Nick Martell]

And after a nice birthday breakfast with the bride, Oscar sketches out a cute drawing of a small cracker.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

A simple Pisces fish with a tail.

[Nick Martell]

And then Oscar calls in a technician from his company and says, hey, I'd like you to start making a mold of what I just drew. Now, by the afternoon, Oscar has that mold in his hand and he's making the first batch of crackers himself. That evening, he presents a heap of these crackers to his lady love.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That's right. The first goldfish cracker was a Zodiac inspired birthday gift for the baker's wife.

[Nick Martell]

Now, we should point out that Oscar's goldfish are a little different than the ones we know today.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

For one, they have these longer, skinnier tails that make you pause when you see them for the first time.

[Nick Martell]

Like Jack. I don't want to go full David Attenborough on this thing, but it looks less like a goldfish and more like a haddock.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And there's no cheddar flavor whatsoever. So they're more like oyster crackers and drag.

[Nick Martell]

But still, these are hype. Highly snackable products. Their texture is ideal for nibbling. Like a portable little crumpet, lightly puffed and pleasantly salted. His wife. How does she react, Jack?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I mean, she's probably sentimental here, but she says she loves them. And soon so does everyone else.

[Nick Martell]

And Oscar decides to manufacture these fish snacks for real. Within the year, these crackers that he calls Gold Fichli are officially being sold in 17 countries in and around Europe.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But none of these 17 countries includes the United States. Until one, Mrs. Margaret Rudkin of Pepperidge Farm, Connecticut, United States, comes calling.

[Nick Martell]

It's 1962, the year Stan Lee debuts Spider man and Bob Dylan plays Carnegie Hall.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Oh, and also a minor incident called the Cuban Missile Crisis.

[Nick Martell]

But none of that is touching Margaret Rudkin, because at the moment, she's on vacation again. And this time in Switzerland, where she's exploring the charming villages and the cute little marches. You know what that means, Jack?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Right off the last time she took a tax deductible trip to Europe, she came home with Pepperidge Farm's new business line, an ensemble of high end, distinctive European cookies.

[Nick Martell]

So Margaret pulls out her passport and gives Europe another go for the sake of vacation and a little bit of R and D. And one day, in just such a market, between the fondue and the Frankenberries, Margaret spies a bag of Cambly's Gold Fishling, the very cracker inspired by true love. And you know what? She kind of falls in love with them too. Jack.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Just like Margaret's moanas, these goldfish are distinctive. They stand out on a grocery store shelf. To Margaret, they'd be the perfect addition to the growing Pepperidge Farm snack empire.

[Nick Martell]

But since we last checked in with Margaret, something bright, pretty, pretty big has happened with her business. You see, one year earlier, in 1961, Pepperidge Farm was acquired by the Campbell Soup Company. Campbell's acquired Pepperidge Farm from Margaret for $28 million worth of Campbell stock.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Adjusted for inflation, that'd be close to a 300 million dollar acquisition today. Plus the appreciation of Campbell stock if she held onto it.

[Nick Martell]

Now, Jack, we should say that once this acquisition happens, there are a whole lot of ways that it could play out.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Like snowflakes and fingerprints, no two mergers are exactly alike. Sometimes the bigger brand absorbs the smaller brand with no trace of the old brand name or even the founding team. But in Margaret's case, she stays behind the wheel. Even as she sells her car, Pepperidge.

[Nick Martell]

Farm becomes a wholly Owned subsidiary of Campbell's Soup. But the brand is protected. Margaret, she's still in charge. And her 1500 legendary employees, they all keep their jobs.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Not only does Margaret not surrender her leadership position, she nabs a seat on Campbell's board as part of her agreement. This makes her Campbell's first female board member ever. Another trail blazed. So keep all this in mind when you picture Margaret standing in that grocery in Switzerland sizing up these Gold Fishley crackers. Now she's not just representing Pepperidge Farm, she's repping Campbell's, just like she did.

[Nick Martell]

With the Delacre cookie company over in Belgium. Margaret approaches Cambly and works out a licensing deal for Goldfish. And once again, please admire a master deal maker at work.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So let's get into the agreement. Cambly will continue manufacturing and distributing Goldfishly in Switzerland. They'll also keep their existing foothold in Europe. But Pepperidge Farm, owned by Campbell's, will hold international trademark rights for the rest of the world.

[Nick Martell]

The original inventors of Goldfish, they get Europe. Campbell's gets everywhere else. Like, if they want to sell goldfish to the emperor penguins down in Antarctica, Pepperidge Farm, not Cambly, will be the seller.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

How does Margaret keep convincing bakers to hand her the keys to their creation?

[Nick Martell]

Honestly, it is a great question at this point. It could be that once again, they're underestimating her. Hey, a middle aged woman and her little cookie company. What's the harm?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Except at this point, that cookie company isn't so little. In the early 1960s, Pepperidge Farm is selling more than 40 million worth of product per year.

[Nick Martell]

With inflation, that number is more like 10x that or over over 400 million bucks today.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And now that Pepperidge Farm has a parent company, it has even more reach because Campbell's has an established international presence at this point that goes back to the turn of the century.

[Nick Martell]

So maybe Cambly didn't underestimate her. Maybe the Cambly company is thinking, hey, we don't have the resources to take our product level, but Campbell's does. Maybe he's thinking, you know, any deal to get these crackers to go global is gravy for us because we could have never expanded overseas on our own.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Plus, Cambly probably received a handsome payment in exchange for giving away the international rights.

[Nick Martell]

It is a win win. But most of that win is going to Margaret's side.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Margaret Rudkin, the licensing shark of Snackville, has struck again.

[Nick Martell]

Now, once Margaret lands the rights to make Goldfish, she wastes exactly zero time. Pepperidge Farm Goldfish. They hit the US market in 1962, mere months after she first discovered the crackers in Switzerland while on vacay.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But when they launch, they make one major change to fit American tastes.

[Nick Martell]

Remember how we mentioned the Swiss version of goldfish were sort of neutrally flavored Swiss and neutrality.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

They go hand in hand.

[Nick Martell]

Well, not Pepperidge Farm's version of Goldfish. Margaret launches with five different flavors right out of the gate. Cheese, barbecue pizza. Smoky. Along with that lightly salted original. It's like they made these for Anthony Bourdain.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I can't believe this is 1960, because those flavors sound like the kind of thing that would get launched today.

[Nick Martell]

Meanwhile, over in Europe, the Cambly company won't offer any flavor except plain until 1983.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

We Americans, we love our flavor dust.

[Nick Martell]

But another surprise is the kind of customer Margaret and Campbell's are trying to attract with goldfish. Because, surprise, it ain't kids like you might have expected. It's actually us. You see, Pepperidge Farm, they position Goldfish as a hip new party food. Bar owners are offering goldfish as snacks instead of peanuts and pretzels.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Forget about pairing these crackers with oatmeal and apple slices. They're being downed by mad men along with their bourbons and rye.

[Nick Martell]

The culinary legend Julia Child, she starts serving goldfish at her dinner parties, including Thanksgiving dinner. So the lady famous for making coq au vin from scratch, she's dishing up goldfish along with what she calls an upside down martini. 5 parts vermouth, 1 part gin, and a handful of goldfishes.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Okay, not interested in that drink, but very interested in the goldfish.

[Nick Martell]

Well, Jack, in 1966, four years after their American release, Goldfish rolls out the iconic cheddar flavor. And it is so popular, they say, let's just make this our baseline. These little fish, they are a hit. And the cheddar flavor, it is a winner. And at long last, Margaret is forced to slow down. In 1966, the same year that cheddar goldfish come out, Margaret hangs up her spurs. She passes away just one year later from breast cancer.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

End of an era, Margaret. A toast with a regular martini, not an upside down one.

[Nick Martell]

Well put, Jack. She obviously leaves some big shoes to fill.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Sensible heels, to be exact.

[Nick Martell]

Once Margaret is gone, her sons take over running the business. And business goes pretty smoothly. But there is one interesting wrinkle in their marketing strategy that will alter the trajectory of this entire product and the entire company forever. Despite Goldfish being one of the company's most iconic products in just four short years. And despite the country heading into a golden age of television, Pepperidge Farm doesn't run a single goldfish TV ad for 1515 years.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Pause the pod. 15 years and goldfish don't make a single appearance on television.

[Nick Martell]

I swear, Jack, Goldfish, they won't do any commercials on tv. And wait until you hear why. This episode is sponsored by Abbott. Let's talk about a small thing that can make a big difference if you have diabetes. The Freestyle Libre 3 Plus sensor. It's amazing to see how the sensor gives you real time glucose readings so you can see the impact of every meal and activity. To make better choices, the Freestyle Libre 3 Plus sensor can help you live life with diabetes on your terms. You can try it for free at Freestyle Libre US offer available for people who qualify. Visit MyFreestyle US to see all terms and conditions. Certain exclusions apply for prescription only. Safety info found @freestylelibre us. When we left off in the years since goldfish hit the American market, there wasn't a single TV commercial made to sell the product. Not one.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's true. Goldfish don't get their own TV ad spot until 1977, 15 years after they debut in the US.

[Nick Martell]

Why did Goldfish wait so long for such an obvious medium? Well, the answer is kind of murky, but here's our theory. Goldfish were first introduced as a swinging party snack. The go to market strategy was to target adults in adult only activities. So our theory is that Pepperidge Farm they let goldfish be a sort of outlier product, part of the larger Campbell's portfolio, but with some distance from the folksy whole grain product lines in order to preserve its edgier brand.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And that would have been fine, except that by the late 1970s, goldfish have kind of faded as a party snack.

[Nick Martell]

This happens with almost every food trend, Jack. We like to say, you know, the three Fs are three indust most susceptible to fads food, fashion and fitness.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

If something's hot in one of those categories in 10 years it probably won't be. And by 1977, adults have all sorts of snack options like Doritos, which have dominated the snack aisle since their debut in 1966.

[Nick Martell]

So Jack, what do companies do when their product is flagging and they want to claw back a little bit more market share?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

They shoot some commercials.

[Nick Martell]

Literally the plot of like every Madman episode, seasons three through six.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's easy to see why Pepperidge Farm might want to run some Goldfish spot during Monday night Football or before the evening news. But something interesting happens when you start running TV ads. Kids start watching them and suddenly goldfish starts looking good to a whole different demographic.

[Nick Martell]

Even if you don't have kids. You know how this works.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Once a kid sees something intriguing on a commercial, they start pointing at it in the grocery store, possibly pre meltdown.

[Nick Martell]

So when the kids start clocking goldfish in the snack aisle, it turns out to be the perfect product market fit. After all, goldfish are pretty healthy when you stack them up against other snacks out there.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Sorry, lunchables.

[Nick Martell]

It's true point that goldfish will come to lean on heavily in their brand new advertising.

[C]

That's because moms know Pepperidge Farm Goldfish crackers are baked, not fried, like most chips. And they're cheesy, not sugary like sweet snacks.

[Nick Martell]

Goldfish basically saying they're a health food.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Plus, there's no denying that goldfish shape and size seem tailor made for the under tens. The fish shape looks like a bath toy, and it fits perfectly in tiny little hands.

[Nick Martell]

Parents, they start leaning in and Goldfish makes a complete customer pivot from a bar snack to balanced school lunches. Which honestly, is right in line with Margaret Rutkin's very first principles when starting Pepperidge Farm in the first place. It goes back to the very first scene in our story, Mark the child in the doctor's office.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The whole reason this company exists is because Margaret wanted healthier food options for her sick little boy.

[Nick Martell]

Pepperidge Farm is so committed to this kid Pivot that in 1997, they hire a Yale psychologist to get into the mindset of their elementary school target demo. And her insight? It is small in size, but it is mighty in impact because she figures out that kids are more drawn to smiling faces. So she advises Pepperidge Farm to put a literal smile on the fish's faces.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This is literally baking a smile onto the crackers themselves. Not every fish has a smile. Only about 4 in 10 do. Either way, it kicks off one of goldfish's more enduring slogans, the smack that smiles back.

[Nick Martell]

Goldfish. Yeah, four out of ten smile back. So Goldfish, they follow up this new tactic with a slew of kid friendly flavors. They issue goldfish counting books and goldfish cartoons. And of course, goldfish tie ins with kid friendly IP like hello Kitty and the whole Pixar universe. And the results? Oh, do we see it in the numbers?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

American consumption of goldfish doubles from the mid 2000s to the late 2000 teens. And just like that, the goldfish saga reaches the Modern era.

[Nick Martell]

Funny timing because all that epic hockey stick growth, success. It happens to be the very moment when Pepperidge Farm decides to upend everything that we just talked about. Think back to the year 2020, year one of a pandemic. Supply chains everywhere disrupted people celebrate birthdays on zoom. And you haven't changed out of your bathrobe in like three days. It's locked down and you are living the athleisure journey juicy couture lifestyle. You're not going out for coffee with a friend or hanging in the office break room. So you're snacking at home.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's not just any snack food that people are reaching for.

[Nick Martell]

It is legacy brand snack foods. Brands that have been around for a long time with high levels of consumer trust. These are the brands that give people a nostalgic feeling of safety in uncertain times.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Literally. Comfort food.

[Nick Martell]

Kellogg, General Mills and other processed food powerhouses, they're seeing their stocks hit all time highs mid pandemic. Cheetos, Doritos, Oreos. Their sales growth flips up for the first time in decades. And it's within this somber environment that Goldfish in particular shines. During 2020, sales of Campbell's snack brands jumped 5%. And Goldfish are a major driver of that.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And that's not just from kids. Turns out almost half of Goldfish buyers don't have children in their household at all.

[Nick Martell]

Encouraged by those sales numbers, Pepperidge Farm invests 160 million but bucks into upgrading one of their big production facilities over in Utah. This boosts their output by 50%. The plant can produce 5 million goldfish every single hour.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That's 1400 goldfish every second, which is insane.

[Nick Martell]

Now obviously pandemic sales numbers, they just can't keep going up forever. And they don't. But Campbell's isn't about to let their rediscovered adult demographic go. So they go hard in courting one particular subset of adult customers, Gen Z.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

After decades of going after the youth vote, Goldfish marketing comes full circle. Only this time, their product won't just have novelty going for it. It'll have nostalgia.

[Nick Martell]

Zoomers grew up in all those kid focused Goldfish commercials that we talked about. And as we said, nostalgia works in 20 year cycles. So Goldfish strategically uses some Gen Z focused throwbacks as limited edition collabs like.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Hello Kitty strawberry shortcake flavored Goldfish to conjure up memories from the 2000s.

[Nick Martell]

Or Jack, how about that 2021 collab with JNCO jeans?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Also for a limited time only, Goldfish went ham on these limited releases but besties.

[Nick Martell]

This marketing strategy actually serves a specific function. It doubles sales. Jack and I call it the wingman strategy, and we almost couldn't believe it when we heard the executives over at Goldfish describe it on a Campbell's earnings call.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Get this Campbell's found that customers are twice as likely to purchase regular Goldfish if you notice one of those wacky special editions on the shelf. Basically, the trendy flavor caught your eye and it reminded you, hey, I like Goldfish. I'm going to grab a trusty old.

[Nick Martell]

Box of the Cheddar flavor, toss it in. Surprisingly, sales for the dill pickle flavor or the Dunkin Pumpkin Spice Grahams flavor, they don't cannibalize sales of the regular cheddar flavor.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

They actually enhance them, just like a good wingman should. Goldfish's Gen Z play it totally works. A 2022 survey with Gen Z participants named Goldfish a snack brand turning 60 years old as their favorite snack brand, beating the likes of Lays, Cheez, its Doritos and Cheetos.

[Nick Martell]

It might just be a matter of time before Goldfish start marketing to kids again, but in the meantime, we are rooting for the collabs to just keep getting weirder because of the wingman strategy. Goldfish and Sriracha, maybe Goldfish and Peeps before Easter? Jack, you into that?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

We'd love to hear your ideas in.

[Nick Martell]

The comments, but as much as Goldfish keep growing, the more they still look the same because the whole business started with a mom baking bread for her son. So Jack, now that we've gone through the story of Goldfish, what's your takeaway?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

My takeaway is be a talent scout no matter where you are. Margaret Rudkin discovered some of her biggest products, including Goldfish, while she was away from her home and her regular routine routines. It's a nice reminder to stay curious and keep looking for chances to go outside your comfort zone.

[Nick Martell]

When Jack and I take off for travel, we don't just relax. We're there for stimulus. See new things, get fresh perspectives which inevitably find their way onto our show.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And you can do this too. We're not saying you should be working while you're on vacation, but be curious and be interested. And even if you don't have a European travel budget like Margaret did, you can still make room to put yourself in new situations and find new ideas. Be a talent scout no matter where you are. What about you, Nick? What's your takeaway when you're trying to.

[Nick Martell]

Hit your target demo? Don't Use an arrow, use a pendulum. Picture your target demographic like a bullseye. You want to pull a Katniss Everdeen and, like, shoot your arrow right in the center. But the problem with that is that no product stays on top forever. Like Facebook. Once, it was everything to college kids, but eventually it became your great aunt's favorite place to camp out online.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The products that are able to shift their target market markets are the ones that last. So don't use an arrow. Use a pendulum. Before we go, it's time for my absolute favorite part of the show, the Best Fact Yet.

[Nick Martell]

Here are the hero stats, the facts, and the surprises we discovered in our research. But we just couldn't fit into the story. All right, Jack, what do we got?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

One fascinating character we learned about in our research is the guy who created the machine that makes goldfish, which he sells to Pepperidge Farm. His name is Ralph Hauenstein, and before his stint in manufacturing, he was a spy and code breaker for the Allies during World War II. Look up the story.

[Nick Martell]

You won't be sorry we mentioned that big factory over in Utah, but it's the town of Willard, Ohio, that Campbell's calls the goldfish capital of the world.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

With a population of just 6,200 people, the Pepperidge Farm Bakery there can produce more than 50 million goldfish every single day.

[Nick Martell]

And we should point out that some of those goldfish have made it into.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Space because they hitched around on the space shuttle discovery in 1988.

[Nick Martell]

Now Jack's gonna do another big romantic gesture and, like, go up to space, impress his wife with some goldfish.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I'm here about a girl goldfish.

[Nick Martell]

It's a story that in every possible way, comes back to love.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And that, my friends, is why goldfish is the best idea yet.

[Nick Martell]

Coming up on the next episode of the Best Idea Yet. This one might literally be the best Idea yet. It is huge. We're going to tell you the real.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Story behind Steve Jobs and the iPhone. Follow the Best Idea yet on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of the Best Idea yet, early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[Nick Martell]

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey. The best idea yet is a production of Wondery, hosted by me, Nick Martell.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And me, Jack Crevici Kramer.

[Nick Martell]

And hey, if you have a product you're obsessed with, but you wish you knew the backstory, drop us a comment. We'll look into it for you. Oh, and don't forget to rate and review the podcast.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I Our senior producers are Matt Beagle and Chris Gautier.

[Nick Martell]

Peter Arni is our additional senior producer.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Our senior Managing producer is Nick Ryan and Taylor Sniffin is our managing producer.

[Nick Martell]

Our associate producer and researcher is H. Conley.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This episode was written and produced by Katie Clark Gray. We used many sources in our research, including the Remarkable Life of Margaret Rudkin, Founder of Pepperidge Farm by Mari Uyahara.

[Nick Martell]

For Taste and if it weren't for a wife guy, there would be no Goldfish Crackers by Lauren Vinipel for Mel.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Magazine Sound design and mixing by CJ.

[Nick Martell]

Drummler fact checking by Brian Punyon music.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Supervision by Scott Velazquez and Jolina Garcia for freeson Sync.

[Nick Martell]

Our theme song is Got that Feeling Again by Blackilac. Executive producers for Nick and Jack Studios are me, Nick Martell and me, Jack Revici Kramer. Executive producers for Wondery are Dave Easton, Jenny Lauer, Beckman, Aaron O'Flair and Marshall Louie.

[C]

At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather it was stolen from me, and the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes and politics. I would define Reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. So I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks both recognizable and unrecognizable names about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph. My hope is that people will finish an episode of Reclaiming and feel like they filled their tank up, they connected with the people that I'm talking to and leave with maybe some nuggets that help them feel a little more hopeful. Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.