🎭 Hamilton: From Founding Father To Broadway Star | 38

Summary

Podcast Summary: "🎭 Hamilton: From Founding Father To Broadway Star | Episode 38"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Best Idea Yet
• Hosts: Nick Martell and Jack Crivici-Kramer
• Release Date: July 1, 2025
• Description: Explore the untold origin stories behind iconic products and the bold visionaries who made them go viral. This episode delves into the creation and meteoric rise of the musical "Hamilton."

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Introduction to Hamilton's Journey

The episode opens with Nick Martell and Jack Crivici-Kramer discussing the profound impact of storytelling and great teaching, drawing parallels to how history comes alive through engaging narratives. This segues into the focus of the episode: "Hamilton," the groundbreaking hip-hop musical penned by Lin-Manuel Miranda.

Notable Quote:

Jack Kravici Kramer [00:26]: "His focus was the civil rights movement and taking this class honestly opened my eyes and made me like aware of politics and the world."

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Lin-Manuel Miranda: From "In the Heights" to "Hamilton"

Lin-Manuel Miranda, already a Broadway sensation with "In the Heights," is introduced as a passionate artist balancing intense performance schedules with creative endeavors. During a much-needed vacation in Mexico, an impulsive purchase of Ron Chernow's biography "Alexander Hamilton" becomes the catalyst for what would become a cultural phenomenon.

Notable Quote:

Nick Martell [06:23]: "The book is an encyclopedic tome that covers thousands of letters, speeches, historical records of this lesser-known founding father."

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The White House Poetry Jam: A Risky Gamble

Upon returning from vacation, Miranda seizes an unexpected opportunity when invited to perform at a White House Poetry Jam. Instead of sticking to familiar numbers from "In the Heights," he takes a bold step by introducing an original rap about Alexander Hamilton. This performance, though nerve-wracking, receives overwhelming applause and viral attention, marking a pivotal moment in Miranda's career.

Notable Quote:

Lin Manuel Miranda [11:17]: "I'm thrilled the White House called me tonight because I'm actually working on a hip hop album about the life of someone I think embodies hip hop. Treasury Secretary Alexander Hamilton. You laugh, but it's true."

---

Developing "Hamilton": From Concept to Workshop

Encouraged by the White House debut, Miranda collaborates with his arranger Alex Lacamoire and director Tommy Kail to expand his initial song into a full-fledged musical. Facing the high risks and costs associated with Broadway productions—where only 20% of shows are profitable—the team strategizes meticulously to bring "Hamilton" to life.

Notable Quote:

Jack Kravici Kramer [15:05]: "In practical terms, yeah, it does matter what form Hamilton takes next."

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Casting and Creative Decisions: Redefining Tradition

One of the standout elements of "Hamilton" is its diverse casting. Characters historically portrayed by white actors are reimagined with actors of color, aligning with America's evolving cultural landscape. This intentional choice not only modernizes historical narratives but also fosters inclusivity, allowing a broader audience to see themselves reflected in America's foundational story.

Notable Quote:

Jack Kravici Kramer [16:47]: "In real life, George Washington was a lifelong slaveholder, but in Hamilton, that slaveholder is played by a black American actor."

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Broadway Debut and Unprecedented Success

After an off-Broadway success at the Public Theater, "Hamilton" makes its Broadway debut at the Richard Rogers Theater in July 2015. Pre-sales exceed $27 million, more than doubling the initial investment and setting the stage for a historic run. The show's innovative marketing, including the "Ham for Ham" rush ticket lottery and exclusive sidewalk performances, generates immense buzz and demand.

Notable Quote:

Jack Kravici Kramer [29:12]: "Ham for ham hopefuls just as the lottery is about to be drawn."

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The Disney+ Streaming Deal: Expanding Hamilton’s Reach

In an astute business move, the "Hamilton" team records a high-quality theatrical film of the Broadway performances. Initially intended for a conventional theatrical release, the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic prompts a pivot to streaming. Disney acquires the worldwide film rights for $75 million, releasing "Hamilton" on Disney+ just in time for Independence Day 2020. This strategic decision not only preserves revenue streams during Broadway's shutdown but also democratizes access to the musical, reaching millions globally.

Notable Quote:

Nick Martell [37:12]: "Disney originally planned to give the film a theatrical release, but when the pandemic hits, people stop going to the movies and both streamers and viewers get desperate for new content."

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Impact and Legacy: Hamilton’s Billion-Dollar Milestone

By 2025, combining Broadway ticket sales, touring productions, and the Disney+ streaming deal, "Hamilton" achieves a billion-dollar valuation, becoming only the fourth Broadway musical to reach this milestone. The show's ability to balance exclusivity with accessibility—through lotteries, tours, and streaming—serves as a masterclass in modern theatrical production and business strategy.

Notable Quote:

Jack Kravici Kramer [39:21]: "This founding father has officially reached unicorn status."

---

Takeaways: Lessons from Hamilton’s Success

Nick Martell's Takeaway: Miranda's relentless pursuit and willingness to take risks—embodied in the mantra "Do not throw away your shot"—demonstrate the importance of seizing opportunities, even amidst uncertainty.

Nick Martell [40:28]: "Alexander Hamilton took his shot every time he was given the chance, even if he didn't totally feel ready."

Jack Kravici-Kramer's Takeaway: Creating both an exclusive and accessible product maximizes reach and impact. By offering premium experiences alongside democratized access through streaming and tours, "Hamilton" caters to diverse audiences without sacrificing its cultural significance.

Jack Kravici Kramer [41:38]: "Unlike Ferrari, Hamilton's creative team wanted everyone who wanted to see the show to be able to do it."

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Bonus Facts: Behind the Scenes of Hamilton

1. Casting Decisions:

   • Nick Martell [42:44]: Lin-Manuel Miranda considered portraying both Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr but ultimately chose Hamilton, seeking to embody his confidence and charisma.
   • Leslie Odom Jr., who plays Aaron Burr, won a Tony Award for his performance and is set to reprise the role for an additional 10 weeks.

2. Historical Accuracy:

   • Many scenes set in taverns reflect the historical reality where Founding Fathers often conducted business while drinking due to the scarcity of clean water.

Jack Kravici Kramer [43:50]: "Several scenes in Hamilton take place in a tavern where Alexander and his revolutionary friends literally raise a glass to freedom."

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Conclusion: Hamilton as The Best Idea Yet

"Hamilton" exemplifies how innovative storytelling, strategic business decisions, and a commitment to inclusivity can transform a theatrical project into a global sensation. By balancing exclusivity with broad accessibility, Miranda and his team created a blueprint for future productions aiming to leave a lasting cultural impact.

Nick Martell [39:32]: "We don't know where it would go next, but I think we got a couple guesses right."

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Stay updated with the latest episodes on the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Subscribe to Wondery+ for early access and ad-free listening. For inquiries or to suggest products you'd like to hear about, drop a comment on the podcast platform of your choice.

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This summary captures the essence and key discussions from episode 38 of "The Best Idea Yet," providing an insightful overview for listeners and newcomers alike.

Transcript

[Nick Martell]

Wondery subscribers can listen to the best idea yet early and ad free right now.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Nick, did I ever tell you about Mr. Kip, one of the great teachers of all time and he was a contact men's hockey player on the side.

[Nick Martell]

Body checking by day, grading papers by night kind of a thing.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

His focus was the civil rights movement and taking this class honestly opened my eyes and made me like aware of politics and the world. It was my political enlightening as a great teacher does. He highlighted this moment during a civil rights protest where a man simply held a sign that said I am a man.

[Nick Martell]

Wow.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

I have never forgotten it.

[Nick Martell]

Well, I dressed up as Paul Revere once for history class and I cried when someone thought I was a pirate. So it wasn't quite as deep as what you were thinking. Jack.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

I think both of our experiences next show the importance of a great story in making history come alive in our minds.

[Nick Martell]

Absolutely, Jack. And the importance of a great teacher to bring those stories to life. But not all good teachers work in a classroom. Some teachers need a slightly bigger stage. What do you think? Maybe a Broadway stage?

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

That's right Nick, because today we're talking.

[Lin Manuel Miranda]

About My Name Is Alexander Hamilton.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Hamilton, the hip hop musical about the life and times of America's first Treasury secretary. It debuted on Broadway in 2015 and immediately started shattering records.

[Nick Martell]

We're talking box office Tony nominations and the number of Thomas Paine references in one night on Broadway.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Everyone lined up to see this show. From the Obamas to Oprah to Tom Hanks and Beyonce. This show redefined the modern theater going experience and brought color to an entire generation's understand of the American Revolution.

[Nick Martell]

Plus, it made an international superstar of the man who wrote the script, the lyrics, the music. Oh, and who played Hamilton himself, Lin Manuel Miranda. Actually, the reason I know the musical is because of you, Jack. You got me the Hamilton tickets for a Christmas present and I've never even.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Been to the show myself. That's what a good friend I am. When I gave you those tickets, I described the Hamilton musical as one of the greatest creative accomplishments of all. All time.

[Nick Martell]

Hamilton also provides us with the perfect case study to understand the contradictory counterintuitive business of Broadway. Fun fact, Broadway shows have a higher failure rate than restaurants.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

So step on into the room where it happened and learn how an impulse vacation purchase led to one of the highest grossing musicals of all time and.

[Nick Martell]

How you can make the most of a sudden opportunity as Paul Revere, the.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Pirate once said the profits are coming the profits are coming 1.

[Nick Martell]

If by balance sheet 2.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

If by CA flow Here's why Hamilton the Musical is the Best Idea yet.

[Nick Martell]

From Wondery and T Boy. I'm Nick Martell.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

And I'm Jack Kravici Kramer and this.

[Nick Martell]

Is the best idea yet. The untold origin stories of the products.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

You'Re obsessed with and the bold risk takers who made them go viral.

[Meisha Brown]

Something familiar, but no, we got it coming to you. I got that feel.

[Ethan Cross]

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[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Vacation sun just hits different the rays feel warmer and the reflection sparkles more brilliantly off the rippling water than it does at home. It's summer 2008 and 28 year old Lynn Manuel Miranda is lounging on a pool floaty in Mexico, bobbing gently as he reads a book. This is the first time he's been able to fully relax in months. Earlier this year, Lin's first big musical, in the Heights, opened on Broadway. He wrote the music and the lyrics and he plays the lead role. He's been working on this since college, but now the show's not only up, it just won four Tony Awards including Best Musical and Best Score.

[Nick Martell]

This is a massive come up for this New York and Kid from Inwood, the neighborhood at the northern tip of Manhattan mere blocks from where in the Heights the musical is set.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

As a kid, Lynn used to commute from his mostly Dominican neighborhood to the mostly white Upper east side for school. He became a cross cultural ambassador, loving both hip hop and Broadway musicals.

[Nick Martell]

I'm picturing him walking down Park Avenue, Jack his Walkman playing Naughty by Nature's Opp followed by I Dream a Dream from Les Miserables.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

But now, all grown up, Lin has managed to translate his corner of New York City for the Broadway going world in the form of song, dance and.

[Nick Martell]

Rhymes and creating in the Heights has been an exhilarating ride, but also a completely exhausting ride. So here's what Lynn is thinking. Let's tap the understudy to perform a week of shows instead of me. Lynn and his girlfriend Vanessa. They're going to take a little downtime down in Mexico.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Lynn even has a vacation book to read. He bought it on impulse, a biography of a semi obscure figure from American history. The kind of book you snag at the airport kiosk right as your flight.

[Nick Martell]

Is boarding, if that flight is really long across multiple continents. Because this book is the 800 page Alexander Hamilton by historian Ron Chernow. This is an encyclopedic tome that covers thousands of letters, speeches, historical records of this lesser known founding father.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

This book is dense, but it also.

[Nick Martell]

Tells the story of a young Caribbean immigrant born to a single mother who rises from poverty to become America's first Treasury Secretary.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Alexander Hamilton survives hardship, illness and the death of his mom to earn a.

[Nick Martell]

Scholarship to King's College, later renamed Columbia University.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

So he emigrates to New York while it's still a British colony.

[Nick Martell]

Later he joins the American Revolution as Washington's right hand man and together, spoiler, they beat back the British to help win America its independence.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Hamilton becomes the intellectual architect of our system of governance that we still have today because he wrote most of the Federalist Papers, the writings that convince people to get on board with the new US Constitution.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, also, there's a little T involved here too. He withstands a sex scandal, loses his eldest son in a duel and is shot and killed himself in his own duel with Vice President Aaron Burr, all before his 50th birthday.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Chernow's biography reads like a cross between Johnny Tremaine and Tupac's Only God Can Judge Me because Hamilton wasn't just a founding father, this man was a G. He beefed with everyone. Not just Aaron Burr, but a couple future presidents and a literal bishop. Lynn is sitting in that floaty and he can't shake the idea that Hamilton and Burr are the Enlightenment era, Tupac and Biggie. Tragic ending and all. He cannot put this book down.

[Nick Martell]

Think about this. How much? One impulsive reading choice from like a HUDS newsstand at the airport Terminal 3 is going to alter the theater and entertainment landscape forever. Jack, what if you'd picked up a Dan Brown mystery instead?

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

When he gets back from vacation, Lynn tracks down Ron Chernow's personal email address, the historian who wrote this incredible story.

[Nick Martell]

And Lynn offers Ron tickets to in the Heights and Even asks Ron out for coffee. Ron, to his delight, says yes. And this one coffee together will kick off a series of events that will transform both of their lives.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Picture cascading verses jotted into a notebook between stops on the southbound A train. Lin is dreaming up ideas for his first rap song about Alexander Hamilton. And that's all it is at first, just one song. He thinks it might be the start of a concept album, a Hamilton mixtape, if you will.

[Nick Martell]

But Lynn's day job is performing the lead role in in the Heights, a two and a half hour per show, eight shows a week commitment at the Richard Rogers Theater on Broadway in West 46th Street. And that takes a whole ton of focus. And it also takes even more physical exertion. So he's going to leave this Alexander Hamilton pot to simmer. Maybe he scribbles a few lyrics on his commute or hums a melody line into his phone's voice memo app. Either way, it's his subway side hustle.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Then, in the spring of 2009, Lynn gets a call from an unlisted number. But instead of a fake bill collector, it's the White House.

[Nick Martell]

Call accepted.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Newly elected President Obama and First lady Michelle Obama are hosting a night of poetry and music at the White House. Spike Lee will be there.

[Nick Martell]

James Earl Jones is going to be there.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

The White House staffer on the phone wants to know, would Lin be interested in performing?

[Nick Martell]

Was Martin Van Buren the eighth President of the United States? The answer is yes, we'll take it.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

They invite Lynn to perform something from in the Heights. You know, the one that won all the Tony Awards.

[Nick Martell]

Makes sense.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

But Lin is ambitious, like the founding father he's recently become obsessed with. He sees a window of opportunity here, and Lynn shoots his shot. He asks, could I try a rap about Alexander Hamilton instead?

[Nick Martell]

There is a slight pause on the line.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

That poetry doesn't sound very def jam at all. But hey, the 44th president campaigned on change, so the staffer says yes.

[Nick Martell]

And before he knows it, Lyn is on his way down to D.C. cut.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

To the White House East Room. The ceiling drips with low hanging crystal chandeliers. In this room, some of the most powerful people in the American government are gathering, all decked out in black tie, including the President and First Lady.

[Nick Martell]

Joining Lin at the piano is his musician friend and collaborator, Alex Lacamore. Alex did the orchestral arrangements for in the Heights and Lynn trusts him completely, even if his guts say what the heck are we doing?

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

When Lin gets the microphone, he starts talking a little too quickly. His Voice sounds confident, but underneath, this guy is bubbling with nerves.

[Lin Manuel Miranda]

I'm thrilled the White House called me tonight because I'm actually working on a hip hop album about the life of someone I think embodies hip hop. Treasury Secretary Alexander Hamilton. You laugh, but it's true.

[Nick Martell]

You know a lot of ums in there. A little awkward. This isn't his cleanest work.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

This audience is clearly expecting a few rhyming jokes about taxation without representation, like an SNL spoof or something. But then Alex lets rip with the opening chords.

[Lin Manuel Miranda]

How does a bastard, orphan, son of a whore, and a Scotsman dropped in the middle of a forgotten spot?

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

As the song progresses, the laughs die down, the energy shifts, chuckles become nods as Lynn finds his flow. Forget the nerdy satire.

[Nick Martell]

This is an epic poem about the man who made the most of every opportunity, achieving the impossible. Until finally Lin gets to the song's dark punch.

[Lin Manuel Miranda]

I'm the damn fool that shot him. Alexander Hamilton.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Lynn and Alex leave the stage in a blur of applause. Lynn starts questioning everything. I saw Obama whispering something to Michelle. What was he saying?

[Nick Martell]

Turns out Obama was saying that his treasury secretary, Timothy Geithner needs to hear this. The song first conceived in 10 second snippets between 190th street and Times Square. It is a hit.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Video from the performance is posted to whitehouse.gov and then to yout views start pinging around the world. This White House debut is more than just an incredible night. It's one of the great product demos of all time. And he nailed it.

[Nick Martell]

Okay, Jack, so four minutes down, only.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Two and a half hours of musical to go. After White House Poetry Night, Lin starts working slowly.

[Nick Martell]

Slow by Lin Manuel Miranda standards is still pretty fast because Lynn shares quite a few traits with Alexander Hamilton. They both work non stop. Lin is still performing in the Heights, eight shows a week. So he's actually creating a second creative baby while he's taking care of his first.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

And during all this, Lynn also gets hired to help write the score for another musical, Bring it On. He guest stars on network TV shows. Oh, and he and his girlfriend Vanessa get married.

[Nick Martell]

So Lynn is basically going full founder mode on his life and career. But two and a half years after that legendary White House poetry jam, Lin has a grand total of three songs.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Now, three songs is more than I've ever written. But at this rate, Lin is in danger of losing momentum from his big night. However, Nick Lin has a secret weapon. You see, when he gets excited about something, he doesn't keep it to himself. He likes to knock ideas around with trusted collaborators, basically open sourcing.

[Nick Martell]

His vision kind of reminds us of that proverb, if you want to go fast, go alone, but if you want to go far, go together.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

We already know he's been working things out with his arranger, Alex Lacamore. But the next person Lin turns to is his in the Heights director, a man named Thomas Kael, or Tommy to his friends. Tommy helped Lynn develop In the Heights from a tiny workshop production all the way to Broadway. And one thing he knows about Tommy, Tommy is a great collaborator.

[Nick Martell]

And one thing Tommy knows about Lin, he needs a deadline. So Tommy gently suggests that Lynn set a more ambitious goal for the Hamilton mixtape than one song a year. They're gonna need to set some benchmarks here, craft some internal deadlines, and honestly, it's a good lesson for all of us. Creativity thrives on constraints. Otherwise you'd still be writing your sophomore year thesis.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

But just as they're working all that out, a natural deadline falls in their lap. Lynn is offered a slot in Lincoln Center's American Songbook series, an artsy annual tribute to American music on Manhattan's Upper west side.

[Nick Martell]

The date Lynn is offered is January 11th.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

January 11th.

[Nick Martell]

I know what you're thinking, man.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Hamilton's birthday.

[Nick Martell]

What are the odds? How can Lynn say no?

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

In a matter of months, the Hamilton song count goes from three to 12, with each one telling a piece of Hamilton's rise. On January 11, 2012, the first version of the Hamilton mixtape plays before a cozy audience of about 450 people in Lincoln Center's Allen Room.

[Nick Martell]

The performers are lit in deep royal blue. The drum kit sprawls across the stage. Everyone in this ensemble wears suits. Like after the performance, they're gonna pop next door to watch the Philharmonic.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

The performers are mostly friends and collaborators Lynn and Tommy have worked with before. For example, a tall, straight backed actor who never skips bicep day. I'm talking about Christopher Jackson.

[Nick Martell]

Now. Lynn and Tommy know Chris from in the Heights and from a freestyle rap group they formed years earlier. And they trust him with one of the mixtape's most critical roles, George Washington.

[Lin Manuel Miranda]

Can I be real a second for just a millisecond? Let down my guard and tell the people how I feel a second Now I'm the model of the modern major general.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

He is so instrumental to developing George Washington. Chris will never have to audition for future productions.

[Nick Martell]

Chris's casting represents more than just a talented actor winning a juicy part. Because this choice will actually come to define one of Hamilton's greatest impacts as a piece of theater.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

In real life, George Washington was a lifelong slaveholder, but in Hamilton, that slaveholder is played by a black American actor. In fact, every major character will be played by a non white actor with the exception of King George, played by a series of smirking white male tenors.

[Nick Martell]

This non traditional casting, it is very intentional.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Lynn and Tommy want the Hamilton Mixtape to bring history into modern terms. The heroes of Hamilton's story are young, they're idealistic, they want to change the world. And in an era when America has just elected its first black president, what better time to give the dead presidents an update? This way, everyone in the audience, citizen or immigrant, can see themselves in the American story.

[Nick Martell]

So George Washington is black, and so is Aaron Burke and Thomas Jefferson. Oh, and playing Alexander Hamilton, the orphaned, illegitimate Scotsman from the West Indies is a Puerto Rican Pulitzer Prize finalist from Inwood.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Lynn himself hey, when you're writing the show, you get to shoot your shot.

[Unknown]

Every big moment starts with a big dream. But what happens when that big dream turns out to be a big flop? From Wondery and Ill Media, I'm Meisha Brown, and this is the Big Flop. Every week, comedians join me to chronicle the biggest flubs, fails and blunders of all time. Like Quibi, it's kind of like when.

[Nick Martell]

You give yourself your own nickname and you try to, like, get other people to do it.

[Unknown]

And the 2019 movie adaptation of Cats.

[Ethan Cross]

Like, if I'm watching the dancing and I'm noticing the feet aren't touching the.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Ground, there's something wrong with the movie.

[Unknown]

Find out what happens when massive hype turns into major fiasco. Enjoy the Big Flop on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to the Big Flop early and at the end free on Wondery plus get started with your free trial at Wondery.com Plus.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Let's start with the good news. The Hamilton mixtape's 2012 debut at Lincoln center gets rave reviews from everyone, including the New York Times. Their critic writes.

[Nick Martell]

Is the Hamilton Mixtape a future Broadway musical? A concept album? Does it even matter what it is?

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Is hot Killer review. But in practical terms, yeah, it does matter what form Hamilton takes next. The difference between a song cycle with a jazz ensemble and a full Broadway production is hundreds of artists and millions of dollars.

[Nick Martell]

By Broadway production, we mean one of the 41 official Broadway venues in New York City, the top rung of American theater. These ornate, 100-year-old theaters are stuffed into a few blocks in midtown Manhattan where Broadway sex with Times Square in fact.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

That'S one of the shockingly practical reasons the business of Broadway is so complicated. The real estate is so limited. There are just those 41 theaters owned by just three companies who have monopolistic power over the producers of the shows. This is why musicals often follow up their Broadway runs with a national tour. The touring model helps productions recoup the expenses of Broadway by literally taking the show on the road.

[Nick Martell]

But in the meantime, Jack, turn off your ringer and pass me the playbill. Let's dive a little bit deeper into the business engine of Broadway.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Fun fact. Broadway generates nearly $15 billion annually and supports 96,000 jobs.

[Nick Martell]

It is both a tourism driver and a cultural institution.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

But Broadway shows are expensive to produce, especially musicals. In the mid-2010s, when Lin is trying to mount Hamilton, straight plays, as in no singing and dancing, cost between 3 and $6 million to mount on Broadway, plus a half a million per week to operate.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, and for musicals, double it. Eight to $12 million in fixed costs just to launch, and then after that, a million dollars per week to operate the thing. Because musicals have big chorus numbers and a full orchestra, which means even bigger weekly payrolls.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

You got to pay for all those oboes.

[Nick Martell]

Now, Broadway shows, they're not only expensive, they're also really risky. In fact, the Broadway world and the venture capital world, they actually have a lot in common. Only one in five Broadway shows are profitable. That's right. 80% of what you see, enjoy and clap to on Broadway is losing money faster than they can make it.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Like VCs hoping for a unicorn IPO, you're betting on a few big hits out of the bunch.

[Nick Martell]

Which is why they say, yeah, you can make a killing on Broadway. You just can't make a living.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Nobody is safe from flopping, and the ghosts of those flops haunt every Broadway producer.

[Nick Martell]

And it is to this landscape that Lin Manuel Miranda and his team find themselves navigating. Of the 46 shows on Broadway in 2012, only about a third of them are original pieces. Everything else is either a revival, a film adaptation, or both.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Elf the Musical, A Christmas Story the Musical, Ghost the Musical. You get the idea.

[Nick Martell]

So what this means is that a musical about a guy best known from your 8th grade history textbook. Kind of a long shot.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Another risk factor for Hamilton. It's a hip hop musical. At a time when Broadway audiences skew.

[Nick Martell]

Over 40 and white, almost 80% of all tickets sold in the the 2014 season are going to white ticket buyers.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Leaving alone whether these audiences will embrace the diverse Casting plan. What are the chances your Aunt Muriel gets Lynn's Biggie Smalls references?

[Nick Martell]

So even with its Tony Award winning creative team and the buzz in the press, a Hamilton musical is facing an uphill climb. Wrong topic, wrong music, wrong audience. This thing is going to need a backing producer who believes in the show despite all of those risks.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Enter a mild mannered, understated producer who will pull off the unimaginable. Jeffrey Seller doesn't look like a fortune teller. He's got a slight build, curly hair and shows up to work in a bicycle helmet. But make no mistake, Nick, Jeffrey Seller can see the future.

[Nick Martell]

Because Jeffrey Seller was one of the lead producers for in the Heights. Right away he recognized Lin Manuel Miranda as a generational talent.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

But back up a second, Nick. Before Jeffrey was a big shot producer, he was a young show booker in New York just hoping for a chance to produce and direct. One day, by chance, he attended a tiny workshop by a little known composer. It was so bare bones that the actors held their scripts on music stands.

[Nick Martell]

But in that small space, Jeffrey saw the next runaway hit and the talent of its creator, Jonathan Larson. Three years later, Jeffrey was co lead producer and financier on the smash hit Rent.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Rent is a perfect case study in taking risky material mainstream. It's a 1990s take on the 1890s opera La Boheme, about a poor seamstress in Paris and her artsy bohemian friends. Rent updates the story though to New York with a multiracial cast playing gay and trans characters, drug addicts and gasp, performance artists.

[Nick Martell]

Several of the characters have HIV or AIDS, a hot button issue back in the late 90s. So when the show opens, Jeffrey watches older audience members actually walk out of the theater.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

To some producers, that real time feedback might be a cue to retool the show. But Jeffrey recognizes that Rent is in a classic five star, one star situation. As in the only kind of reviews you want for a new product.

[Nick Martell]

Collecting 5 star and 1 star reviews helps you hone in on your core audience. The same things. Making grandpa walk out or making young people fall in love with and embrace the show. So Rent runs on Broadway for 12 years, earning almost 275 million bucks and lands in the top 20 list of all time earners.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

With this experience under his belt, you can understand why Jeffrey might be excited to take a chance on Hamilton. From the moment he sees the Lincoln center concert, he's nudging Lynn and Tommy about mounting a full production.

[Nick Martell]

And Jeffrey turns out to be the perfect addition to the team. He's not just a wallet. He gives critical artistic feedback that they can trust. Because Lynn and Tommy, they know Jeffrey isn't going to ask for changes just to make the show more profitable. He wants them to make the best show. Period.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

What comes next is an intensive period of RA research, writing and workshops. Call it Theatrical hour. Dig. Lynn spends months burying himself in Alexander's voluminous letters. He consults with the biographer Ron Chernow to make sure his facts are all straight. Lynn and Tommy even make a research pilgrimage across the Hudson river to the site of Hamilton's final duel so they can conjure the scene on stage.

[Nick Martell]

While Lynn is covering the content, Jeffrey Seller is CFO ing the whole financial side. He's raising money, creating budgets, wrangling partnerships to workshop the show, meaning putting it on its feet with actors and musicians.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

They call this taking a play from page to stage, and it often happens far away from New York's theater district.

[Nick Martell]

So Lin and his crew, they start workshop in the show upstate and later down in Hell's Kitchen in Manhattan, collecting essential cast members along the way, like speed rapper Daveed Diggs as Thomas Jefferson, the crooner, Leslie Odom Jr. As Aaron Burr, Renee Elise Goldsberg as Hamilton's sister in law that he's maybe in love with Angelica. And each actor they find bring another key piece of the story to life.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

And In March of 2014, it's announced that the show is heading off Broadway to the historic Public Theater in the East Village of New York. Not as the Hamilton Mixtape, but simply as Hamilton.

[Nick Martell]

It's cleaner.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

The AC is blasting inside the Richard Rogers Theater because outside it's a scorcher. Two hours before showtime, Lin is already backstage, trying not to be nervous. This is the very same theater on West 46th street where Lin's last show in the Heights ran for 1,100 performances. So he knows this plays backwards and forwards, but right now it feels foreign. The catwalk above his head seems a little too high. The lights feel a little too bright.

[Nick Martell]

It's July 13, 2015, the day of Hamilton's first Broadway performance, and man, what a trip it has been.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Remember the Public Theater downtown, that off Broadway space with just 300 seats? Hamilton sold out all 119 performances there. Hamilton is riding a wave of PR buzz unseen in the industry in decades.

[Nick Martell]

But here we are on Broadway. And from the Lincoln center show to to the developmental workshops, everyone in the New York theater scene has been buzzing about this Hamilton production.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Even the technical crew, the veteran stage folk who build sets and hang lights for hundreds of productions were whispering that Hamilton is something special.

[Nick Martell]

So after a brief hiatus to fine tune the show, Hamilton moves from the East Village up to its new home at the Richard Rogers Theater on Broadway. And expectations could not be higher.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Even as Lin paces backstage before the first preview, the show has already brought in more than $27 million in advance ticket sales. The show's basically sold out for months before the curtain even rises. It's among the biggest pre opening totals in Broadway history. The hype was real.

[Nick Martell]

That $27 million in pre sales, that's over double the initial $12.5 million investment. Not too shabby.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

But it's exactly in moments like these that doubts start to creep in. What if the show just doesn't translate to Broadway? What if the tourists don't love us the way Public Theater subscribers do? What if this whole time, Lynn and his crew had been in their own hype bubble? But just then, someone points Lynn towards the stage door. Because outside on 46th street, people have started to gather for the lottery.

[Nick Martell]

Wait, is this like the mega Millions drawing tonight? What's going on?

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

No, it is not, Nick. This is Hamilton's ticket lottery for same day rush tickets. Here's the deal. A small number of front row seats are held back each performance until right before showtime.

[Nick Martell]

Broadway shows actually have done this for years. The cheapest Rush tickets usually going for about 20 bucks a piece. A discount to make theater more accessible for folks with a lot of love but very little money.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

It's a great tradition of Broadway.

[Nick Martell]

It is.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Instead of $20 for these same day rush tickets, Hamilton's Rush tickets are just $10. And why is that, Nick?

[Nick Martell]

Well, because that's the bill with Mr. Alex Hamilton's face on it.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

It's hand for hand. Yeah, you pay a Hamilton to see Hamilton.

[Nick Martell]

So here in the chatter outside, Lynn pops out to see the ham for ham hopefuls just as the lottery is about to be drawn.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

So he steps out onto 46th street hours before his first show, and finds himself face to face with 700 people.

[Nick Martell]

700 people. That is 14 New York City buses worth of humans. All of them waiting for the chance to win one of just 21 tickets to tonight's opening preview.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Lynn feels this rush of gratitude towards the crowd at this moment, everyone clamoring to experience this show he's been working on for seven years. So he gives them a word of encouragement.

[Lin Manuel Miranda]

So thanks to you, we're probably going to be here. So don't be disappointed if you don't win today.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

I love you very much when Lynn goes on stage that night, sure enough, the front row section is filled with young people hanging on every word. It is exactly the energy you want on your first night.

[Nick Martell]

For Hamilton's signature song, My Shot, the front row is nodding and mouthing along already because they know every word well before the song enters the cultural zeitgeist.

[Lin Manuel Miranda]

I am not throwing away my shot now.

[Nick Martell]

At the next performance, Lin says hi to the Rush crowd again. Only this time instead of a quick hello, he creates an original three minute sidewalk performance just for this crowd. Even those who don't win tickets, which.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Is most of the people there come.

[Nick Martell]

Away having seen something totally one of a kind.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

This kicks off a totally new Broadway tradition, the Ham for ham performances. Most Wednesdays and Saturdays, lynch plus rotating cast members, special guests, even actors from other Broadway shows. They burst out of the stage door and perform something special for that lottery crowd. These performances are short and silly, but they're also one of a kind. And they make everyone standing there hoping to get their hands on a ticket they probably won't get. It makes them all feel really special.

[Nick Martell]

Plus, let's talk a little strategy here. These hand for hand mini concerts are basically a musical growth hack. The sidewalk lottery tickets are already attracted.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

To happened to customers.

[Nick Martell]

But the lottery itself isn't new. Most Broadway shows, they have done this since Rent.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

But these random live performances, that's totally innovative. Yes, they become a reason to keep trying to get into Hamilton 6, 7, 12 times.

[Nick Martell]

All while posting about it on social to drive even more demand for the show. And from a financial perspective, the Ham for ham shows are also a way to democratize the experience a little. Because ironically, Hamilton, a musical about the rise of a penniless orphan, is getting more expensive by the day.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Ticket prices continue to soar through the start of 2016, going from about $350 on average to more than 500 if you can find a ticket at all.

[Nick Martell]

And once online scalpers get involved, we're talking up to $11,000 a ticket on the secondary market has become the Louis Vuitton of live shows, the Maserati of musicals. It is now a luxury product even.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

When the original cast starts departing ticket price. Because Hamilton dominates the 2016 Tony Awards, a record 16 nominations in 13 categories with 11 wins, that's the second most in Tony history. Lynn wins a Pulitzer prize and a MacArthur genius grant.

[Nick Martell]

It becomes so hard to get these tickets. Lynn will make fun of it later when he hosts Saturday Night Live.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

But the luxury ification of Hamilton neck it gets Lynn and his team thinking, what's the legacy of this musical going to be? Is it about a sense of belonging? How immigrants, poor people, people of color all deserve a place in the American story?

[Nick Martell]

Or is this the story of creating the most exclusive show in town? Like an amaze Birkin bag?

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

It's a complicated question with no easy answer. Until they score one of the biggest content acquisition deals of all time.

[Nick Martell]

This production is about to go from a Hamilton to a billion.

[Unknown]

Today is the worst day of Abby's life. The 17 year old cradles her newborn son in her arms.

[Nick Martell]

They all saw how much I loved him. They didn't have to take him from me.

[Unknown]

Between 1945 and the early 1970s, families shipped their pregnant teenage daughters to maternity homes and forced them to secretly place their babies for adoption in hidden corners across America. It's still happening. My parents had me locked up in the godparent home against my will. They worked with them to manipulate me and to steal my son away from me. The godparent home is the brainchild of controversial preacher Jerry Falwell, the father of the modern evangelical rite and the founder of Liberty University, which where powerful men emboldened by their faith, determine who gets to be a parent and who must give their child away. Follow Liberty Lost on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

It's just past midnight, July 3, 2020. You're likely not planning your Independence Day party because it's the thick of COVID lockdowns.

[Nick Martell]

Broadway has been shuttered since March 12. The lights are dark. The pause was supposed to be just one month, but it's gonna last for more than a year. Billions in tourism dollars lost. Not to mention those 96,000 jobs. We're talking actors, dancers, designers, box office staff all in limbo.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Hamilton has gone dark too. Not just on Broadway, but it's robust touring productions that had been taking the show all over the us, Canada, Australia, even the uk.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, King ge, gorgeous backyard.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

The original Broadway cast had long since gone on to other gigs. And Lin Manuel Miranda? He's busy adapting in the Heights to the big screen and writing songs for Disney's Moana.

[Nick Martell]

You're welcome. But now, as you sit on your couch thinking about how to keep the kids six feet apart, when you bust out the Fourth of July sparklers, you notice a new icon on your Disney plus app. Gold background, black star and the silhouette of a man pointing up, up to the sky.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

The movie musical is available for anyone with a Disney plus account or anyone.

[Nick Martell]

Still borrowing their ex roommate Timmy's password. But wait. Sorry, Jack. How did we get here exactly? Can we please rewind the tape a bit?

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Turns out, back in June 2016, the Hamilton team did something really smart. They captured a live performance of the original cast on film.

[Nick Martell]

And now they didn't know what they would use this for yet. But they didn't just stick a camera at the back of the house during a performance. They invested in spending three days filming, capturing two live performances, plus another day when the house was empty. This allows them to capture all the big close ups and set up complex shots using cranes and a dolly track.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

The end result was a theatrical recording unlike any other. It puts the viewer right up close to the action, just like you would see if you got one of those rush seats. You can see Thomas Jefferson saliva as he's spitting lyrics at a Kendrick Lamar pace.

[Nick Martell]

Tommy Kail directs, the cast shines, and the project goes stealthily into post production until February 2020.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

That's when Disney buys the worldwide film rights to this high budget musical for $75 million.

[Nick Martell]

It's one of the biggest acquisition deals ever for a live performance. Disney will match this deal in 2024 for the rights to Taylor Swift's eras concert movie. Hamilton sets the price for Taylor Swift.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Disney originally planned to give the film a theatrical release, but when the pandemic hits, people stop going to the movies and both streamers and viewers get desperate for new content. Plus, Disney wanted to get some new subscribers signed up. So boom. Disney pivots and releases Hamilton on Disney plus just in time for Independence Day.

[Nick Martell]

So bringing Hamilton to streaming gives regular folks, folks, especially families, a chance to reach back in time and get their own front row seat to the most exclusive ticket in the world.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

And it gave us all a patriotic way to celebrate America's birthday during the lockdown.

[Nick Martell]

For context, about 1,300 people per show watched Hamilton live, which means about 2.6 million people saw Hamilton live during its first five years on Broadway. But for contrast, in the first 1010 days on Disney plus, roughly 2.7 million households streamed Hamilton.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

You're telling me in 10 days on streaming, more people saw Hamilton than saw it in five years on Broadway?

[Nick Martell]

That's exactly what I'm saying, Jack. This Disney deal, combined with the Broadway ticket revenue, the touring, and the music streaming, it pushes Hamilton to the billion dollar mark by 2025, only the fourth.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Broadway musical ever, ever to achieve this feat.

[Nick Martell]

And based on the ticket prices, amazingly, it appears that the Disney plus streaming version did not cannibalize the Broadway elite. Luxury version that still continued, I could.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Attest, because I bought you those tickets.

[Nick Martell]

Damn, I did. I did. I appreciate you going into debt for me on that one, Jack. For nice gift.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

But add it all up, Nick, and this founding father has officially reached unicorn status. Stick that on the back of a ten dollar bill.

[Nick Martell]

And after eighteen months of COVID induced shutdown, the show reopens on Broadway September 2021, where it is still running today. In fact, this year marks Hamilton's 10th anniversary.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Hashtag Hamilton.

[Nick Martell]

We don't know where it would go next, but I think we got a couple guesses right.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

You saw how well Wicked did as a film adaptation of a Broadway show.

[Nick Martell]

Good point, man.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Over $700 million in global box office revenue and counting. We think a full scale film, a film adaptation of Hamilton can't be far behind our prediction.

[Nick Martell]

Michael B. Jordan plays Washington.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Benedict Cumberbatch plays King George.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, and then Jack. Knowing how Hollywood works, are they gonna find a way to turn Hamilton into a trilogy? Ben Franklin Freestyle is about discovering electricity. Let's make it happen.

[Lin Manuel Miranda]

Just you wait. Just you wait.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

So, Nick, now that we've heard the story of Hamilton, what's your takeaway?

[Nick Martell]

My takeaway, Jack, is straight from the do not throw away your shot. Alexander Hamilton took his shot every time he was given the chance, even if he didn't totally feel ready.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

In fact, the only time he did throw away a shot, it was during that duel that ended his life. Pretty meta, right?

[Nick Martell]

But as the creative force behind Hamilton the Musical, Lin Manuel Miranda also had to shoot his shot and make the most of every opportunity, even if it was a total gamble.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Like when he decided to perform a brand new song at the White House Poetry Jam. That was a huge risk, but he took it because he saw the upside and it changed his life.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, if you, like, sit down and actually weigh the pros and cons of that decision. The risk was he embarrasses himself, okay? The upside is that he ends up disrupting the entire theater industry. Do not throw away your shot. But, Jack, what about you? What is your takeaway?

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Well, I'm using another line from Hamilton. Customers want to be in the room where it happens. When you have an exclusive product like Hamilton tickets, you face a key decision. Embrace that exclusivity or find ways to let more people in.

[Nick Martell]

And both approaches work. Like we learned in our Ferrari episode, Ferrari manufactures scarcity by making, as Enzo Ferrari put it, one car less than the market desires.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

But Hamilton's exclusivity wasn't manufactured like Ferrari's. Was theaters have physical limits of size and actors capacities to do only so many shows a week. So unlike Ferrari, the Hamilton creative team wanted everyone who wanted to see the show to be able to do it. Hence the lottery tickets, the Broadway cast album, the national tours, multiple cities, and finally the Disney Stream deal.

[Nick Martell]

Kind of the rare case where they had both a luxury product and an accessible product. Because customers want to be in the room where it happens, it's up to you to decide whether you let them in. Before we go, it is time for our absolute favorite part of the show, the Best facts yet.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

These are the hero stats, the facts, and the surprises we discovered in our research, but couldn't fit into the story.

[Nick Martell]

All right, Jack, let's go. And a 5 and a 6 and a 7 and 8.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Today, it may seem obvious that Lin Manuel Miranda would play Alexander Hamilton. But early in the development process, Lin actually couldn't decide whether he should play Hamilton, the impulsive genius in a hurry who can't keep his mouth shut, or.

[Nick Martell]

Burr, the other main character of the play whose whole thing is waiting and waiting for the right opportunity.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Lin identifies with both, but decides to go for Ham, of course, because he rarely gets the chance to play someone so cocky and so confident.

[Nick Martell]

The role of Burr, by the way, went to the great Leslie Odom Jr. Who won a Tony Award for best actor. Oh, and breaking news, he happens to be returning to the role for 10 weeks this September.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Might want to hop on that ticket app right now if you want to see Leslie Odom Jr. As Aaron Burr.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, pause the pod. One sec, Jack.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

All right, Nick, last fact. Several scenes in Hamilton take place in a tavern where Alexander and his revolutionary friends literally raise a glass to freedom. This is because historically, the Founding Fathers spent most of the Revolution pretty tipsy. Clean water in the colonies was hard to come by, so the Founding Fathers mostly drank Alex Hamilton, who preferred wine.

[Nick Martell]

America, didn't run on Duncan and ran on Sam Adams. Yeah, but Jack, before we go, I gotta ask. Considering Mr. Kip is absolutely listening to today's episode, what grade do you think he's given us on this analysis of Hamilton?

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Mr. Kip, drop a comment and let us know. And that is why Hamilton is the the Best Idea Yet.

[Nick Martell]

Coming up on the next episode of the Best Idea Yet. Put on your best sweatband and limber up that throwing elbow because we're talking about the Frisbee. Hey, if you have a product you're obsessed with, but you wish you knew the backstory, drop us a comment. We'll look into it for you and.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Don'T forget to rate and review the pod. Five stars helps us grow the show.

[Nick Martell]

The best idea yet is a production of Wondery hosted by me, Nick Martel.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

And me, Jack Crevici Kramer. Our senior producers are Matt Beagle and Chris Gautier.

[Nick Martell]

Peter Arconi is our additional senior producer.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Our senior managing producer is Nick Ryan and Taylor Sniffin is our managing producer.

[Nick Martell]

Our producer is H. Conley. Research by Brent Courson this episode was.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Written and produced by Katie Clark Gray.

[Nick Martell]

We use many sources in our research, including all about the Hamiltons by Rebecca Mead for the New Yorker and the.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

CEO of Hamilton Inc. By Michael Sokolov for the New York Times Magazine. Sound design and mixing by CJ Drummler.

[Nick Martell]

Fact checking by Molly Artwick.

[Jack Kravici Kramer]

Music supervision by Scott Velazquez and Jolina Garcia for Freeson Sync.

[Nick Martell]

Our theme song is Got that Feeling Again by Blackilac. Executive producers for Nick and Jack Studios are me, Nick Martel and me, Jack Revici Cranberry. Executive producers for Wondery are Dave Easton, Jenny Lauer Beckman, Erin O' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.

[Meisha Brown]

We're counting down the days. July 4th weekend Essence Festival culture sponsored by Coca Cola Returns to the city that raised the rhythm New Orleans.

[Nick Martell]

4.

[Meisha Brown]

Days, 1 Community Endless Joy A Jill Scott Drawn featuring Ms. Patti LaBelle and Jasmine Sullivan Maxwell Babyface to Erykah Badu the Isley Brothers to Boys to Men devito to Boujee Banton Lorilla to Master P. We pay tribute to the legends, celebrate the icons, toast the disruptors and honor all that makes us us. This is a love letter to our legacy. A gathering of gentlemen Generation A space made for us by us. Because we're not just attending a festival. We're living the culture. We're made like this. Tickets on [e-mail].