🏍️ Harley-Davidson: Tattoo’d on 700,000 Biceps | 46

Summary

The Best Idea Yet – Ep. 46: 🏍️ Harley-Davidson: Tattoo’d on 700,000 Biceps

Podcast: The Best Idea Yet
Hosts: Nick Martell & Jack Crivici Kramer
Date: August 26, 2025
Subject: The untold story of Harley-Davidson, the product, culture, and bold bets behind one of America’s most tattooed brands.

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Episode Overview

This episode explores Harley-Davidson’s evolution from a turn-of-the-century garage project to the global symbol of rebellion, freedom, and biker culture. Hosts Nick and Jack trace the company’s founding, its community-building genius, its brushes with extinction, and its ability to sell not just bikes—but identity. The show brims with storytelling, business insights, wild facts, and the enduring question: How does a brand become worthy of 700,000 tattoos?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. A Brand Tattooed on 700,000 Biceps

• Harley-Davidson is "one of the most tattooed logos in history," with an estimated 700,000 tattoos worldwide [01:23].
• The hosts open by riffing on the idea of which brand they'd tattoo on themselves, revealing Nick (jokingly) sports their podcast show logo as a tattoo [00:53].

2. The Founding: Inspiration from the Fringes

• Vaudeville Spark: Founders William S. Harley and Arthur Davidson were inspired by a vaudeville show featuring a motorized tricycle ("while everyone else saw a punchline...these guys saw the future of freedom and the open road" [05:18], [06:03]).
• First Build: Using a recycled tomato can as a carburetor, they built and iterated, soon bringing in the mechanically gifted Walter Davidson [07:37].
• Reality Check: Their first engine “barely ran” and couldn’t make it up hills, pushing them to improve ("We should triple the motor size" – Walter Davidson [08:52]).

3. From Backyard to Factory (1903-1908)

• Built just 3 bikes in 1903; by 1908, making 450/yr [10:43]-[11:00].
• Milestones: First dealership and birth of the Harley-Davidson community, forming the first motorcycle clubs ("the heart of the company's success" [11:47]).

4. Harley’s Edge: Performance & Community

• Racing: Harley’s “Wrecking Crew” dominated the notorious “Murderdrone” racing tracks, winning fans and improving the bikes ("Research and Development...and Marketing" [17:08]).
• Introduction of the iconic V-Twin engine (the deep, throaty sound of Harley) [17:50].

5. From Military to Main Street

• Harley supplied 20,000+ bikes to the U.S. Army in WWI, earning over $150M in today’s money [20:05].
• Gave the Army free mechanic training—turning soldiers into lifelong, loyal Harley fans ("Harley is also indoctrinating that first generation of hardcore Harley fans" [20:55]).
• Created "The Enthusiast" magazine for soldiers, building community and lore [21:10].

6. The Rise of a Lifestyle

• By 1920, Harley was selling 30,000 bikes a year worldwide [21:44].
• Shifted focus to aesthetics with the iconic teardrop gas tank, blending fashion and function [22:17].

7. Chopper Culture and Counterculture

• WWII experience: Veterans returned home, customized bikes—birth of the "chopper" [25:10].
• Outlaw image grows: Hollister Riot (1947) jumpstarts “bad biker” mythos; Hell’s Angels formed ("the world's most powerful decentralized fraternity in history" [27:21]).
• Mainstreamed in movies (“The Wild One,” “Easy Rider”)—rebellion and cool, but sales suffered as parents got scared off [28:18].

8. Competition and Crisis: The AMF Years (1969-1981)

• Honda's entry: Smaller, cheaper, reliable bikes change the U.S. market ("Harley is getting outsold 10 to 1 by Honda" [32:42]).
• Harley bought by AMF, suffers quality issues and loss of reputation ("Quality falls into the gutter..." [33:04]).

9. The Willie G. Davidson Reboot

• Willie G., grandson of a founder, returns, pushes embracing custom/chopper style at the factory ("work for Levi’s, may as well work for Harley" [34:15]).
• 1981: Willie G. and execs stage an $80M leveraged buyout to reclaim Harley from AMF [34:58].
• Harley doubles down on identity, launches the Harley Owners Group (HOG); leans into "American by birth, rebel by choice" [36:19].

10. Boom and Bust: Midlife Crisis Marketing

• "Harley Davidson was saved by midlife crisis marketing while the brand was going through its own midlife crisis" [36:55].
• Baby boomers boost sales in the 90s, long waiting lists for new bikes ("By 1996...18 month wait list..." [37:28]).
• Harley even tries to trademark the engine sound ("potato, potato, potato" [37:51]).

11. Modern Brand Play and New Challenges

• Harley’s rider base is aging; sales fell in half of past ten years [38:08].
• Harley focused on boomers, "ignored millennials," and faces uncertainty with young buyers.
• However, Harley’s merch division is thriving—$270M in apparel and gear sold in 2022 [39:03]; "the margins on merch...are better than on bikes" [39:27].
• Hosts highlight Harley’s "gray beard strategy"—wait for new generations to turn into their parents ("Once you hit the age of 45, something just clicks..." [40:12]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On brand devotion:

• "Riders are as loyal to the Screaming Eagle logo as they are to their own mothers."
  —Nick Martell [02:26]

On disruption:

• "Basically, the horse is getting disrupted."
  —Nick Martell, explaining the early 1900s [07:14]

On the chopper movement:

• "Don't fear the fringe. Embrace it."
  —Jack Crivici Kramer [40:53]

On Harley’s authentic value proposition:

• "What we sell is the ability for a 43-year-old accountant to dress in black leather, ride through small towns and have people be afraid of him. That is so honest it hurts."
  —Quoted by Jack, from a former Harley exec [38:17]

On Harley's sound:

• "They actually tried to trademark their engine sound."
  —Nick Martell [37:28]

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Timeline of Key Segments

• 00:10-01:23: Brand tattoos banter; Harley-Davidson’s tattoo claim
• 05:18-07:14: Origin story—vaudeville inspiration, early DIY engineering
• 10:43-12:28: First sales, dealership, community formation
• 15:34-18:05: Racing and "Murderdrone," rise of the V-Twin
• 20:05-22:37: World Wars, community-building via military and media
• 25:10-27:21: Birth of the ‘chopper’, counterculture, and biker clubs
• 31:07-33:04: Honda's effect, AMF buyout and Harley’s decline
• 34:58-36:43: Willie G., buyback, Harley Owners Group (HOG)
• 36:54-37:28: The 'midlife crisis' marketing strategy and boomer boom
• 38:08-40:12: Modern struggles, merch as profit center, “gray beard strategy”
• 40:53-41:44: Key takeaways: Embrace the fringe; invest in education
• 42:45-44:07: "Best facts yet": Hog nickname origin, Harley side gigs, perfume flop

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Business & Cultural Insights

• Community over Product: Early club formation and service member training established lifelong loyalty.
• Motorcycles as Identity: Harley’s DNA is as much about rebellion and self-expression as machines.
• Brand Resilience: Through crisis and competition, Harley reinvented itself by embracing and channeling biker subcultures.
• Marketing Mastery: Harley expertly turned image (boomers’ midlife crisis) into booming sales.
• Merch Profits: As bike sales slow, the brand’s value and merchandising ascend.

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Fun Facts & Final Surprises

• The term "Hog" dates to Harley’s early racing team, where a piglet mascot would get a victory lap after wins [43:04].
• Harley has tried (unsuccessfully) to branch out—selling snowmobiles, golf carts, wine, and even perfume.
• On perfumes: "Turns out people who are happy to have the Harley logo as a permanent tattoo, they're not dabbing Oda Harley behind their ears." —Jack [44:07]

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Takeaways

Jack:

• "Don't fear the fringe. Embrace it."
  Harley’s revival came from embracing biker customization and building factory customs.

Nick:

• "Education is the best investment you can make from both sides."
  By training GIs on its bikes, Harley created skilled loyalists and better performing machines.

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This episode captures how Harley-Davidson’s edge lay not just in engineering, but in its fearless embrace of the fringe, translating community, rebellion, and midlife longing into one of the most iconic—and inked—brands in business history.

Transcript

[Nick Martell]

Wondery subscribers can listen to the best idea yet, early and ad free right now.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[Nick Martell]

Wondery. Jack, if you absolutely just had to have a brand logo tattooed on your body, what would it be? Where would it be?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

A tattoo answered.

[Nick Martell]

Like a guy who doesn't have any.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I gotta point out, brand tattoo.

[Nick Martell]

I thought you would do calf tattoo. Yeah, you were gonna. Ben on one calf and Jerry on the other calf. And, like, together. It's like a Ben and Jerry situation on both legs.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That would be on point.

[Nick Martell]

It would work. It would work.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

What about you, dude?

[Nick Martell]

Oh. Oh, you mean if I did. But I already did.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Jack, would you do. You ready?

[Nick Martell]

One sec. I just gotta. I just gotta take off my shirt.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

What?

[Nick Martell]

Are you all right?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

What do you see on this left bicep, Jack?

[Nick Martell]

That's the logo of this podcast. Yeah.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It is the best idea yet.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah. Yeah. She struggled with the font at first, and I'm not gonna lie, there were some tears involved, but the show's gonna last forever. She said this thing will too.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Wait, is that real?

[Nick Martell]

It is.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Oh, my goodness.

[Nick Martell]

I know. And Jack, you know what? It was a two for one special that day, so there's another surprise I got coming at you later in the episode.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Yetis. Did you know that one of the most tattooed logos in history is not this podcast? It's Harley Davidson.

[Nick Martell]

That's right. An estimated 700,000 of those tattoos worldwide.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Today's subject signifies freedom, rebellion, and life on the open road more than any happened.

[Nick Martell]

It's the dawn of a new era at Harley Davidson. Together we dream, and united we ride.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Harley Davidson, the nearly 3 billion dollar publicly traded motorcycle company with an attitude that screams, you can look, but you can't touch. Don't you dare. It's one of the rare products to hit all five senses. From the sound of thunder to. To the heat of that chassis, to the taste of freedom. Harley even tried to trademark the sound of its engine.

[Nick Martell]

Out of all the viral products we've covered on this show so far, none carry as deep a brand commitment as the Harley. For what other brand would you drop 25k, strap on some leather chaps in 100 degree heat and just sit on it all day long?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Riders are as loyal to the Screaming Eagle logo as they are to their own mothers.

[Nick Martell]

Jack. How about the motorcycle clubs? You got the Mongols, the Warlocks, and the Hell's Angels. Each of them operating like little fiefdoms with deeper backstories than Game of Thrones. Beyond the bike beyond the community. You buy a Harley for the tension packed values it stands for. It's part machine, but it's part art. Open roads, but closed clubs. Rebellion from the rules, but strict rules around the brand.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Harley hates posers. And yet it sells over $200 million of merch every year.

[Nick Martell]

But it didn't start out that way, did it?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

In this episode, we'll hear how the founders, three Davidson brothers and one Harley got inspired by a vaudeville show to strap a motor to a bicycle.

[Nick Martell]

And we'll tell you why. The best brand insights don't come from the focus groups. They come from the fringes.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Will Gen Z's hips ever hug a Harley?

[Nick Martell]

Who knows?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

We call it the midlife crisis strategy and we'll tell you if it's working.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, and don't worry, by the way, by the end of this episode, you'll know your shovel head from your knucklehead.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Nick, I'm gonna go put on my custom chaps. But it's nothing compared to your tattoo.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, I gotta put my shirt Jack. And I think I gotta ice this thing. It's pretty fresh.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Yetis here is why Harley Davidson is the best idea yet.

[Nick Martell]

From Wondery and T Boy. I'm Nick Martell.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And I'm Jack Crevici Kramer.

[Nick Martell]

And this is the best idea yet. The untold origin stories of the products.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

You'Re obsessed with and the bold risk takers who made them go viral. I got that feeling again Something familiar but no we got it into you I got that feeling again they changed.

[Nick Cannon]

The game in one move.

[Nick Martell]

Think about the most disturbing government secrets you've learned from history. Now imagine discovering one that begins in a hospital room and leads straight to classified military operations that were buried for decades. Listen to a medical mystery, a special episode from redacted and Mr. Ballin's medical mysteries, available now wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lawless Planet Host]

What if I told you that the crime of the century is happening right now?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

From coast to coast, People are fleeing flames, wind and water.

[Nick Martell]

Nature is telling us. I can't take this anymore.

[Lawless Planet Host]

These are the stories we need to be telling about our changing planet. Stories of scams, murders and cover ups and the things we're doing to either protect the earth or destroy it. This is Lawless Planet. Follow Lawless Planet on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Nick Martell]

Laughter, cheers and loud ragtime tunes ring out from a marquee lit theater on a cold Wisconsin night in Milwaukee. On stage, a chorus line of dancers parts, a curtain opens and outbursts the star of the show, the flamboyant Broadway star, Anna Held. She's dressed in a large brimmed hat, a feathered boa, and with an oversized peacock tail strapped right to her back. But she's upstaged by the very thing that's transporting her across the stage. A bizarre tricycle with a puttering engine. The audience laughs, the show moves on. But two guys in the back row are transfixed, because while everyone else saw a punchline on wheels, these guys saw the future of freedom and the open Road.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's 1901, and these two men are William S. Harley and Arthur Davidson. They're both 20 years old, and they grew up on the same street in Milwaukee. And they're both obsessed with bicycles. They also both work at the same manufacturing company. Will Harley is a draftsman, drawing up designs for mechanical parts. And Art Davidson is a pattern maker, building molds for casting metal components.

[Nick Martell]

So, Jack, our two buddies, leave the theater, throw their legs over their bicycles, and face the long, cold, wobbly ride home. And as they do, they just can't stop talking about that motorized tricycle from the show. They've just never seen anything like it before. And then Will hits the brakes, skids to a stop, and he says, we should build one. But instead of three wheels, it should have two. A motorized bicycle.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

At this time in 1901, transportation in America is transforming. Railroads are crisscrossing the country. The Wright brothers over in Ohio fix bicycles by day so they can build the first airplane by night. And up in Detroit, Henry Ford is hard at work on what will be his first mass market transportation machine.

[Nick Martell]

Basically, the horse is getting disrupted.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So when it comes to ways of getting from A to B, invention is in the air. And now Will and Art have caught the bug.

[Nick Martell]

Now there are already a handful of factories making motorized bicycles or motorcycles in the United States. But they're underpowered. The engine is more like an add on. You still need to pedal, especially uphill.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Will and Art want something faster, more reliable, and, simply put, enjoyable. So they start building their own machine from scratch. These two 20 year olds have a shoestring budget, so they improvise. They even use a recycled tomato can for the carburetor. Carburetors are the engine chambers where gas and air mix together.

[Nick Martell]

You don't need to be a mechanic to know that using a tin can is a, how would you put it? A non standard modification.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Technically, their motor runs, but barely. Like every other motorcycle out there, this bike cannot get up hills.

[Nick Martell]

So to get any further Art and Will need help. Luckily, Art knows just the person.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

His brother, Walter.

[Nick Martell]

Walter Davidson's been working on the railroad all the livelong day. He's a machinist and he's out in Kansas building precision parts for locomotives. He also happens to be a self taught electrician and he used to race bicycles. Walter has exactly the skills that Art and Will need.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So when Walter comes home for a family visit, he follows Will and Art into the backyard for the big unveil. Art cranks the pedals and the engine sputters to life. To Art, this is his beautiful baby.

[Nick Martell]

But to Walter, well, Walter just rolls his eyes. Look at this weak little Frankenbike held together with pipe dreams and tin cans. But then Walter takes a closer look at the design drawings and he whips out a pencil. He goes, maybe we lose the whole tomato can and that 116cc sized motor. Yeah, let's triple that. You want it to go up hills, right? We gotta add power. So within a few weeks, they get a version 2. It's bigger, it's stronger, and it's got way more soul. Now, there's only one way to see if it all works together. Someone has got to take this puppy for a test drive.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Now, we should point out that homemade engine is a few loose bolts away from being a homemade explosive device. But that doesn't worry Walter. He hops on the bike and takes off down a rutted path.

[Nick Martell]

Will and Art wait anxiously, half expecting to hear a huge crash. But after a few minutes, the throaty chug of the engine, their engine, it breaks the silence. The bike is still in one piece. And Walter is still on the saddle, grinning like a madman.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Reality check. The bike isn't moving up much more than a jogging pace, but it's fast enough to give Walt a rush of excitement.

[Nick Martell]

Walter pulls up, heart pounding, eyes wild. He turns to his brother and he says, we gotta add more power. Arthur just shakes his head. Too dangerous. Too loud. But Walter just smiles wider. That's exactly what this thing needs.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Soon, another Davidson brother, also called William, pitches in to help. And for anyone keeping track, we've now got three Davidsons, Art, Walt, and William. And one Harley.

[Nick Martell]

Also William.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And at the moment, just one bike.

[Nick Martell]

That's it.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But they're just getting started.

[Nick Martell]

In 1903, Harley and the Davidsons build just three motorcycles.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That's it.

[Nick Martell]

But they do make their first sale to a local resident. It's not huge, but it's a start. They're officially a business. No longer amateur tinkerers.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

By 1906, they build 50 bikes.

[Nick Martell]

Okay.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And move into a proper factory in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, which is still Harley Davidson HQ to this day.

[Nick Martell]

And as they grow, they keep refining. They build custom frames strong enough to hold the growing motors, which are gaining horsepower with each and every iteration. And new ignitions mean starting the engines gets easier each and every time.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

By 1908, they produce 450 bikes a year and hit two big milestones.

[Nick Martell]

First, a Chicago man named Carl H. Lang establishes the first Harley Davidson dealership. And this is a big deal. Because of what he does at the dealership, he sets up a motorcycle club for his customers. The idea is to get together to cruise around the city, go off on weekend trips, and bond over the bikes.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This is the birth of the Harley Davidson community, and it's basically the heart of the company's success for the next century.

[Nick Martell]

Now, the second milestone of 1908 is a race that Walter Davidson enters. It's a grueling 170 mile endurance run all the way from the Cadillac Mountains in upstate New York down through the city. And then you hang a left and go all the way around Long Island.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The upper part of this course winds through mountainous terrain that one reporter called the most strenuous test of motorcycles which has ever been made.

[Nick Martell]

But that little machine takes every bump, every climb, every mile, and it wins.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And with this win, Harley Davidson goes from regional curiosity to national fame.

[Nick Martell]

But 1908 also brings a challenge.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

A major challenge. Yeah, because remember how Henry Ford had been working hard on his own project up in Detroit? Well, 1908 is the year that he launches the Model T automobile, and America falls hard for four wheels.

[Nick Martell]

The Model T is marketed as safe, comfortable, family friendly. Meanwhile, a motorcycle kind of looks like a death wish with handlebars and no room for a kiddo. And I think it's the reason. My mom made my dad sell his Harley right before I was born.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

My mom made my dad sell his bike right after I was born, too.

[Nick Martell]

Are you kidding?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Either way, Harley and the Davidsons need a new angle because of competition from the Model T. They need a new message for a new kind of rider. Because if they don't shift gears soon, they're going to crash and burn.

[Nick Martell]

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[Jack Crevici Kramer]

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[Nick Martell]

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[Jack Crevici Kramer]

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[Nick Martell]

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[Jack Crevici Kramer]

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[Nick Martell]

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[Jack Crevici Kramer]

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[Nick Martell]

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[Lindsey Graham]

Year old Howard Hughes inherited a fortune. And he wasted no time putting it to use. With a million dollars burning a hole in his pocket, he headed west, determined to conquer America's booming new capital of entertainment, Hollywood. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, host of Wondery show Business Movers. We tell the true stories of business leaders who risked it all, the critical mom define their journey, and the ideas that transform the way we live our lives. In our latest series, Howard Hughes clashes with Hollywood's power players as he fights to see his name in lights. But Howard has deep pockets and even deeper ambitions and he revolutionizes the movie business by breaking rules and spending big. Because for Howard, the best way to level Hollywood's playing field is to explode the entire industry. Follow Business Movers on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes of Business Movers early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

[Nick Martell]

A dozen riders cling to the screaming bikes as they whip around bends so steep they're nearly vertical. The circular track they're racing on isn't made from asphalt, but entirely out of a million wooden boards, which is why it's known as a toothpick track. But it has another, more sinister nickname. Welcome to the Murder Drone. The Murder Drome. Technically, it's actually called the motordrome. But after a few too many fatal crashes, including spectators being taken out by flying bikes, the nickname, oh, it sticks.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

After a few laps, you're dodging oil slicks, flaming bike racks and fallen riders. The daredevils who raced in the Murder Drone were total lunatics and also absolute legends of their age. And Harley Davidson has its very own team competing, which they call the Wrecking Crew.

[Nick Martell]

I mean, Jack, this reminds me of the strategy that we'll see from Ferrari a couple decades later. Compete in popular sports to win the love and respect of fans before parlaying that fame into marketability and consumer sales.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And Harley's latest bike, the Model 7D, is dominating the Murder Drum. Every win boosts Harley's reputation. Like Maximus Decimus Meridius crushing skulls in the Coliseum.

[Nick Martell]

Are you not entertained by that? Torque?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And every engineering breakthrough made to survive these brutal tracks helps make Harley's tougher, faster and better built than ever. We call this R and D and M Research and Development and marketing.

[Nick Martell]

Introduced in 1911, this 7D bike is faster than any Harley Davidson before it, topping out at around 60 miles per hour. Now, you may not be impressed by that top speed by today's standards, but keep in mind the Model T car was only going 45 mph tops. At Harley's speed boost, it's thanks to a major new innovation. A new, more powerful V twin two cylinder engine. It's called a V twin because the cylinders are arranged in a V shape and twin because there are two cylinders. And one of the hallmarks of a V twin engine is that classic deep, throaty throttle sound that makes you think.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Of a Harley Davidson rebellious type. Fell in love with the Harley from their performance at the Murder Drums and the powerful roar of the V twin engine. It's this moment that the modern Harley brand identity really takes form.

[Nick Martell]

And Harley prices this 7D bike at $300. Around 10 grand in today's money, or just about 1000 dol you'd spend on the cheapest Harley model in 2025. And Harley's manufacturing 5000 of them in this very first year.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

By 1912, there are over 200 Harley dealers in the U.S. but Nick, guess who is one of the biggest and earliest and most surprising bulk buyers of motorcycles?

[Nick Martell]

Who was it? Who was it?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Police departments. Because with more motorists on the road, there's more traffic violations. And motorbikes have the speed and nimbleness to dodge traffic and pursue perps.

[Nick Martell]

Jack, no better customer than one with a fresh annual budget.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

In 1917, the US enters World War I and companies brace for impact. And as you've heard from previous episodes of this show, World War I means materials will be rationed, factories will be repurposed, and civilian sales could dry up.

[Nick Martell]

Harley Davidson sees something else. They see opportunity. Because if they can convince the army that motorcycles belong on the battlefield, then maybe Harley Davidson could actually come out stronger on the other side. Somewhere in northern France, a US army scout blasts across a cratered battlefield on an olive green army issue motorcycle. Suddenly, from the treeline ahead comes the flash of enemy gun fire. The scout's training instantly kicks in. He pulls his bike into an extreme slide. He's basically executing a controlled fall to the ground. As the bullets continue to zing around him, he pulls out a grenade, pulls out the pin, and lobs it toward the tree line. The explosion throws up a screen of earth and rocks, an improvised smoke screen. The scout then leaps back onto his bike, guns the engine, and speeds right back toward the friendly lines to deliver his intel on the enemy's position.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

His bike is one of the more than 20,000 that Harley Davidson supplies to the U.S. army for use in World War I. If we suppose $300 per bike, that would be $6 million in cycle sales for Harley to the U.S. army worth more than $150 million in today's money. That'll more than just keep you in business. That'll transform you into a freedom fighting brand.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, just ask Jeep. But bikes aren't the only thing that Harley Davidson lends to the war effort. Harley offers to provide free maintenance training for all the military mechanics.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Here's what Harley Davidson is thinking. All of those soldiers who get trained up on riding and repairing Harley Davidson bikes, they're going to come home as loyal Harley Davidson riders. Because once you've ridden a Harley through the literal hell of war and back, you are loyal to that machine.

[Nick Martell]

So Harley Davidson offers free education to the US army to train mechanics to help win the war. But this is the key. Harley is also indoctrinating that first generation of hardcore Harley fans.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

During World War I, the company also launches the Enthusiast, a magazine for service members overseas. Part tech tips, part homefront updates, part emotional lifeline, Harley just jumped into the media industry like the Conde Nast of horsepower.

[Nick Martell]

And it's working. It's building a community. Jack. Soldiers start riding in from the front lines, sharing stories of their trusty Harley Davidsons and their plans to hit the open road when they can return home from the war and see their wives.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And when the war ends, Harley Davidson is ready to welcome them with open saddlebags.

[Nick Martell]

And we see it in the numbers. By 1920, Harley Davidson is building around 30,000 bikes a year and selling through more than two dealerships in 67 different countries.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

As the roaring twenties roar, Harley Davidson makes a Strategic shift, it starts to consider aesthetics in addition to performance. They streamline the body and add their now iconic teardrop shaped gas tank. For the first time, Harley doesn't just care about how it rides, but how.

[Nick Martell]

It looks doing it.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Fashion is catching up to function.

[Nick Martell]

Add it all up and by the late 1920s, Harley Davidson is the biggest motorcycle maker in the world. Harley has created, dominated and run away with an entirely new industry beloved by veterans, embraced by cops, and stylish enough to make a dance and flapper do.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

A double take when the Great Depression hits. William Harley doesn't want to hunker down. In fact, he wants to double down on Harley Davidson's growing image for speed, style and action attitude. So he sets his engineering team to work on something audacious. An all new model that will define the look, sound and the soul of Harley Davidson for generations.

[Nick Martell]

The sand of Daytona beach isn't your typical Florida sun's out, guns out beach scene with bottles of Hawaiian Tropic. This Atlantic Ocean sand is empty and packed with hard. The sky's wide open and the tide is out. And that roar you hear, it isn't the ocean. It's motorcycle racing champion Joe Petrali gunning his Harley Davidson along the beach. The crowd leans forward as Joe rockets past in a blur. The speedometer on his bike clocks 80, 90, 100.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

When Joe Petrali flies across the finish line, he clocks 136mph. It is a new land speed record set in 1937 and it will stand for the next 11 years. For Joe, it's a career high. For Harley Davidson, it's the kind of publicity that money can't buy.

[Nick Martell]

The bike Joe's riding is a modified version of the newest Harley Davidson called the Model El, better known by its nickname the Knucklehead because of how the pistons on the the top of the engine make it look like a clenched fist. This machine, it has a new frame, a new engine, and it's double the horsepower of anything they've made before. In fact, every one of the huge Harley cruisers traces its DNA right back to the knucklehead on this beach in Florida.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The record breaking run by Joe Petrali gets people talking about Harley Davidson like it's the fifth Kardashian.

[Nick Martell]

Totally.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And those conversations kickstart sales.

[Nick Martell]

And just in time, because a few years later, the world goes to war again. Three of the four original founders are gone and only Art Davidson is left.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But by this point, Harley Davidson is a major manufacturer with the capability to build more than 88,000 motorcycles for American troops and their allies. And just like In World War I, Harley Davidson trains U.S. army mechanics to keep the bikes running. So when tens of thousands of Harley riding GIs come home from the Second World War, the trust Harley earned on the battlefields translates to loyalty in the marketplace.

[Nick Martell]

And those veterans put what they learned in the field into practice on their new rides to make them their own. They modify the frames, they chop off parts, and they add new ones to achieve a unique look.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This is exactly where the word chopper comes from. Like chopped down bikes that were built to go faster and look more badass.

[Nick Martell]

It also spawned countless custom reality shows like American Chopper, filling up the entire Discovery Channel lineup.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Now, some of Harley Davidson's engineers can't stand seeing customers chopping up their carefully designed bikes. But there's one person who thinks this is awesome. And he's not even on the payroll. Nick. He's actually still in high school.

[Nick Martell]

Jack, are you talking about Willie? Gary Davidson? Willie G. Yeah, the grandson of co founder William Davidson.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Okay, we've lost count of how many Williams and Davidsons are involved now. So like I said, let's just call.

[Nick Martell]

This guy Willie G. And Jack, when young Willie G. Sees these wild, homemade choppers out in the world, he gets it to him.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

These aren't scrap heap monstrosities. They're love letters by some of the most devoted Harley riders out there. And these riders are forming clubs where they ride, swap stories, and live out the freedom they fought for overseas.

[Nick Martell]

That original idea to foster a community around Harley Davidson, we are seeing it right here in full bloom. Unfortunately, though, it's about to produce some bad seeds. In 1947, the American Motorcyclist association hosts a rally in Hollister, California. It's a quiet little town an hour and a half south of San Francisco, so this should be a chill weekend for motorcycle enthusiasts to meet up and trade some road stories.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Except over 4,000 bikers show up. They drink, they party, they race, and they repeat. By the time the dust settles, the town looks like it's been hit by a leather tornado. The newspapers call it the Hollister Riot. And America starts taking on a new impression of bikers as lawless hooligans.

[Nick Martell]

Eight months later, the Hell's Angels are officially founded in California, and it becomes the world's most powerful decentralized fraternity in history. A lot of them are ex military, and they even take their name from a World War II Air Force bombing unit. Hell's Angels.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

With that shared veteran background, they build their own code. Brotherhood, loyalty, no rules, but their own Hollywood takes notice. True, in 1953, Marlon Brando stars in the Wild One as a brooding anti hero in a leather jacket slouched on a motorcycle.

[Nick Martell]

Elvis Presley spends his first big paycheck on buying a Harley Davidson. Young men across America and beyond, they start dreaming of the open road, the wind and the attitude because of what they're seeing on the screen. In 1969, Easy Rider hits theaters following a pair of rebels with Harley choppers on a cross country counterculture odyssey.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

All of these movies cement Harley's image as the ride of the outlaw. It is great for street cred, but get this, it's actually not great for sales. For every kid dreaming of rebellion and driving a Harley, there's a parent crossing Harley off the shopping list.

[Nick Martell]

Meanwhile, there's also a new challenge that is roaring down the road. Cheaper, faster, smoother bikes built in Japan.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Harley's gotta step it up or they'll be left in the dust.

[Lawless Planet Host]

How hard is it to kill a planet? Maybe all it takes is a little drilling, some mining, and a whole lot of carbon pumped into the atmosphere. When you see what's left, it starts to look like a crime scene.

[Nick Martell]

Are we really safe? Is our water safe? You destroyed our tap.

[Lawless Planet Host]

And crimes like that, they don't just happen.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

We call things accidents. There is no accident. This was 100% preventable.

[Lawless Planet Host]

They're the result of choices by people. Ruthless oil tycoons, corrupt politicians, even organized crime. These are the stories we need to be telling about our changing planet. Stories of scams, murders and coverups that are about us and the things we're doing to either protect the earth or destroy it. Follow Lawless Planet on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes of Lawless Planet early and ad free right now by joining Wondry in the Wondry App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[Nick Cannon]

It's your man, Nick Cannon, and I'm here to bring you my new podcast, Nick Cannon at Night. I've heard y' all been needing some advice in the love department. So who better to help than yours truly? Nah, I'm serious. Every week I'm bringing out some of my celebrity friends and the best experts in the business to answer your most intimate relationship questions. Having problems with your man? We got you catching feelings for your sneaky link. Let's make sure it's the real deal first. Ready to bring toys into the bedroom? Let's talk about it. Consider this a non judgment zone to ask your questions when it comes to sex. In modern day dating, in relationships, friendships, situationships and everything in between. It's gonna be sexy, freaky, messy. And you know what? You'll just have to watch the show. So don't be shy, join the conversation and head over to YouTube to watch Nick Cannon at night or subscribe on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast. Want to watch episodes early and ad free? Join Wondery plus right now.

[Nick Martell]

Grab a Lucky Strike and a shot at Jim Beam, because by the 1960s, the Harley Outlaw image is at full throttle. But Jack, where does that leave the good folks whose idea of rebellion is wearing Birkenstocks instead of biker boots to the office?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The reality is that some people just want a cheaper way to get to work, especially with traffic clogging up city streets. With the rise of the car in the suburbs, the commute has become a noun in America and not a fun one.

[Nick Martell]

And that's the gap Japanese bike maker Honda sees. Now, Honda's only been making motorbikes for like 20 years at this point. So Harley, yeah, they got a head start.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But in terms of sales, Honda's been yanking on the accelerator. In fact, they've overtaken Harley as the world's biggest motorbike manufacturer. When Honda arrives In America in 1959, motorbike sales in the US are around 60,000, while sales in Japan are more like 600,000. So Honda has locked in the Asian market, and now they're gunning for the.

[Nick Martell]

US And Honda takes a counterintuitive approach in this new country that prioritizes size. America, bigger maybe isn't better. Honda bikes, they're way smaller, they're way cheaper, and they're way more reliable than Harleys. And Honda capitalizes on this in their marketing. Because while Harley is selling grit, danger and size, Honda is selling the opposite image. Simple, safe, and small.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Suddenly, motorcycles aren't for outlaws, non conformists. They're for college kids and commuters. In 1960, Honda sells around 3,000 motorbikes in the U.S. but by 1969, they're selling more than 300,000 per year.

[Nick Martell]

Okay, how about our buddies over at Harley?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

They're selling just 27,000.

[Nick Martell]

Harley is getting outsold 10 to 1 by Honda, and they become financially desperate. So in 1969, Harley accepts a buyout from AMF, the American Machine and Foundry Company. AMF is the company famous for making bowling balls and bowling pins. You may have played in one of their bowling spots.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And once they're in control of Harley, AMF tries streamlining the company with laughs, cost Cuts and assembly line speed ups, classic private equity moves, quality falls into the gutter. And Harley Davidson gets a bad reputation even among its die hard fans.

[Nick Martell]

But before you give up on Harley in the middle of all of this, one person still believes Willie G. Davidson. Willie G. The last time we saw him, he was graduating high school and heading off to college.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Well, now Willie G. Is back at the family firm and he's gone full bike. This guy's got the bandana, the beard and the chaps. Oh, and even though the company has been taken over by amf, Willie G. Is still a vice president overseeing design.

[Nick Martell]

Now, Willie G wants Harley Davidson to lean into its chopper culture. To him, that represents the true essence of Harley Davidson rebellion. Self reliance, individualism. Something that the company has just lost along the way.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So Willie G pitches something radical. What if Harley Davidson builds custom style bikes straight from the Harley factory?

[Nick Martell]

Okay.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Instead of making customers chop up their Harley, chop them up for them. It's the bike equivalent of pre torn jeans.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, work for Levi's, may as well work for Harley.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So in 1971, Harley Davidson rolls out the Super Glide.

[Nick Martell]

The Super Glide. Later, they come out with the low rider. These bikes are sleeker, leaner, meaner, Straight from the outlaw playbook. Willie is helping Harley reclaim its soul.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But there is another problem.

[Nick Martell]

Oh boy.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

These bikes look the part. But they're still plagued with quality issues, thanks to AMF's obsession with cuts. So behind the scenes, Willie G. Is frustrated. And by 1981, the company that built its name on grit and guts is just weeks away from shutting its doors forever.

[Nick Martell]

Jack, our boy Willie G, he just can't take it anymore. So he gets together with 12 senior executives, people who share his love for the company, the bikes and the image his family built. And they take a huge gamble that they are the ones who can turn it around. So in 1981, they buy the company back from AMF for 80 million bucks, getting most of the money from loans. So this, this is a classic leveraged buyout.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And with Willie G in the saddle, they try to shift the battlefield. Instead of trying to out engineer the Japanese. Hardly doubles down on what they are selling. Identity, as their new slogan puts it. American by birth, rebel by choice.

[Nick Martell]

I feel, Jack.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Instead of turning into the competition, they opt to be the biggest version and loudest version of themselves as possible.

[Nick Martell]

And they make some other strategic moves too. They actually pull back on the number of bikes they produce to focus on the quality issues. But it's a struggle. You see, they got 70 million bucks in debt from the buyout. The country is in a recession. And just one year in the early 80s, they rack up losses of more than $50 million. That's gonna break your tailpipe right there.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So to get out of the hole, they go public on the New York Stock Exchange under the best ticker symbol yet that they still have today.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, this is so good.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

H O G Hog. But Willie G knows that it's not just about the financials. To me, to make Harley Davidson truly roar again, it needs to tap into its tribe.

[Nick Martell]

So in 1983, he launches the Harley Owners Group. Hog. Turning loyal customers into a two wheeled army of brand ambassadors.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And then 1990 comes around. Do you know what that means, Nick?

[Nick Martell]

Actually, Jack, I can't remember. We were just 2 years old.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Good point. The 90s are when the first baby boomers are parents hit middle age.

[Nick Martell]

Interesting.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And with that age, the midlife crisis checks out. So when Arnold Schwarzenegger rides a harley down the LA river in Terminator 2, it's like a siren call to the tens of thousands of boomers, including both of our fathers. And sales Spike. The bikes are iconic again. Loud, proud and back in style. Harley Davidson was saved by midlife crisis marketing while the brand was going through its own midlife crisis. So were your parents. Perfect timing.

[Nick Martell]

And we see it in the numbers. By 1996, demand is so high, there's an 18 month wait list for some models. Willy G and his team, they've turned around a dying brand by making it mean something again. In fact, this one detail says it all. The company gets so confident, they actually tried to trademark their engine sound.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Potato, potato, potato, potato, potato.

[Nick Martell]

Although they dropped the attempt when competitors argued that their engines were equally loud and rumbling.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

We cover Harley Davidson stock on our daily show. The best one yet, especially when Harley reports quarterly earnings. And for five of the last ten years, sales shrank.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, interestingly, the brand has doubled down on boomers. But those retirees have been hanging up their helmets, literally and figuratively.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

As one former Harley Davidson exec put it, Nick, what we sell is the ability for a 43 year old accountant to dress in black leather, ride through small towns and have people be afraid of him. I can't believe he actually said that. That is so honest, it hurts. And while doubling down on boomers, Harley has basically ignored millennials.

[Nick Martell]

And that is part of the recent struggles. The bikes are still big, loud and built like tanks, but they come with a price tag to match. Harley can start at around $22,000 for a cruising model. Compare that to the 12,000 bucks for a Triumph or just $8,500 for a Honda. And if you're a 30 year old expecting a family, that high end Harley cruiser, that's going to cost you more than a Ford suv and it doesn't have much space for your diaper runs.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But Nick, while the bike side has been struggling recently, the brand has become so powerful, Harley is mining it like gold. Get this. In 2022, Harley sold $270 million of merch and gear. We're talking jackets and tops, tumblers and koozies. If you can stick a screaming eagle logo on it in orange, Harley's selling it for green. And the margins on merch, by the way, are better than on bites.

[Nick Martell]

Great point.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That $45 Harley Davidson hat is a profit puppy.

[Nick Martell]

And to sprinkle on a little more context here, that merch division of Harley, it is bigger than Brandy, Melville and Allbirds. So, yeah, maybe you aren't in the market for a full hog yet, but you'll probably buy that tank top.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But maybe Harley is thinking at an even higher level than any of us even realize. You look at Harley ignoring millennials and you think that might be a strategic mistake. But maybe Harley just knows that one day you're gonna turn into your parents. You're gonna mow your lawn, fly down to Florida, and have a little midlife crisis of your own.

[Nick Martell]

I mean, Jackie used to make fun of your dad's New Balance sneakers, but look what you got on your feet right now.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Yeah. So when you're ready, Harley will be ready for you, too.

[Nick Martell]

This is the gray beard strategy, though it applies to the non bearded as well. You see, Harley doesn't have to bother selling cheap bikes to 28 year olds or going viral on TikTok to please Gen Z. Because once you hit the age of 45, something just clicks. And what you really crave is an open road and a leather outfit. Maybe even a brand tattoo for that full crisis package. And that feeling is what Harley is really selling. So, Jack, now that you've heard the story of Harley Davidson and we've both mentally prepared for our pending midlife crisis while podcasting on a couple of roadhogs, what is your takeaway?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Don't fear the fringe. Embrace it. In the 1960s, 1970s, Harley's purists hated the chopper movement. Riders were stripping down bikes, chopping off parts, welding on new ones, and Frankensteining together wild machines that looked nothing like what came off the factory floor.

[Nick Martell]

Inside the company, a lot of engineers saw that as an insult. But Willie G. Saw riders who were so passionate they couldn't wait to put their own spin on the brand. The that's when he came up with the factory customs that looked like garage built shoppers, but they came with a Harley logo and a Harley reliable warranty.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That move to embrace the choppers turned Harley around. The fringe of the Harley community showed the future of the brand. Don't fear the fringe. Embrace it. What about you, Nick? What's your takeaway?

[Nick Martell]

Education is the best investment you can make from both sides. Sides of the coin. Harley sold a ton of bikes to the US Military during both world wars. The key was that Harley tossed in free maintenance and repair training. You see, that was a huge investment that paid big dividends.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Why?

[Nick Martell]

Well, when Harley trained thousands of US Service members on the ins and outs of their motorcycles, it turned them into evangelists of the brand. Plus, the bikes used in that war were operating better thanks to Harley's investment in repair education. The result was that thousands of Americans who fought in those wars came home with an image of Harley not just as part of the war effort, but as reliable machines. And it was those servicemen who became customers for Harley during peacetime.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

We're all told that you should invest in your education. We've heard that a million times from our parents, but now we're seeing it from the other side of the coin. Companies can invest in educating their potential customers because that pays dividends to in future sales.

[Nick Martell]

Okay, Jack, before we go, it is time for our absolute favorite part of the show, the best facts yet.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

These are the hero stats, the facts and the surprises that we discovered in our research but couldn't fit in the story.

[Nick Martell]

All right, Jack, for the first fact, I've been dying to know this. Where does the term hog for Harley Davidson actually come from?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

One of the stars of Harley's early racing team, the Wrecking Cross crew, was a guy named Ray Weishar, nicknamed the Kansas Cyclone. But the real crowd pleaser was his pet piglet, Johnny. Because after every win in the Murderdrome, Ray would scoop up Johnny, plop him on the gas tank, and take him for a victory lap. And then they would reward Johnny the little piglet by letting him guzzle a can of soda. Johnny the pig became the team's mascot and the the origin for Harley Davidson's nickname, Pog.

[Nick Martell]

It's kind of adorable, like a little circus act. All right, I got another one for you. Here we go. In our research, we actually came across a whole bunch of weird and I want to say wonderful Harley Davidson side businesses.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Like, did you know that at one point, Harley Davidson made snowmobiles and golf carts and even wine.

[Nick Martell]

But, Jack, our favorite part has to be that 1990s line of Harley perfumes.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

With scents including Territory, Black Fire.

[Nick Martell]

But unsurprisingly, they bombed.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Turns out people who are happy to have the Harley logo as a permanent tattoo, they're not dabbing Oda Harley behind their ears.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah. Oh, speaking of tattoos, Jack, remember I.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Told you I got the two for.

[Nick Martell]

One deal on the. On the bicep tab? Yeah. Okay.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

What's the other?

[Nick Martell]

Oh, well, it's on my back.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

You ready for this?

[Nick Martell]

One sec. Yes.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

What is this, a tramp stamp?

[Nick Martell]

Don't pause the pod. One sec. It's almost ready. This one's still wet.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

All right, we're gonna have to keep this pg, Nick.

[Nick Martell]

This is a family show, and that is why Harley Davidson is the Best Idea yet.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Coming up on the next episode of the Best Idea yet, how a bankrupt Baltimore baseball team was transported to New York City to become the most dominant and most divisive brand in sports history.

[Nick Martell]

From pinstripes to power plays, we're stepping up to the plate with the story of the Yankees. And don't forget to rate and review the show. Jack and I love reading all your reviews. And five stars. That actually helps us grow the pod in the rankings.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And tap to follow the show so you can get the Best Idea yet every single Tuesday. Follow the Best Idea yet on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcast. You can listen to every episode of the Best Idea yet early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

[Nick Martell]

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey. The best idea yet is a production of Wondery hosted by me, me, Nick.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Martel, and me, Jack Corvici Kramer. Our senior producers are Matt Beagle and Chris Gautier.

[Nick Martell]

Peter Arconi is our additional senior producer.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Our senior managing producer is Nick Ryan. And Taylor Sniffin is our managing producer.

[Nick Martell]

Our producer is H. Conley. Researched by Brent Courson.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This episode was written and produced by Adam Skuse.

[Nick Martell]

We use many sources in our research, including the Discovery Channel miniseries, Harley and the Davidsons.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Sound design and mixing by CJ Drummler.

[Nick Martell]

Fact checking by Brian Pognan.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Music supervision by Scott Velazquez and Jolina Garcia for frees on sync.

[Nick Martell]

Our theme song is Got that Feeling Again by Blackalac. Executive producers for Nick and Jack studios.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Are me, Nick Martell and me, Jack Revici Kramer.

[Nick Martell]

Executive producers for Wondery are Jenny Lauer, Beckman, Aaron o' Flaherty and Marshall Louis.