📺 MTV: How Video Killed the Radio Star | 23

Summary

The Best Idea Yet: MTV – How Video Killed the Radio Star | Episode 23

Released on March 18, 2025

In this captivating episode of The Best Idea Yet, hosts Nick Martell and Jack Crivici Kramer delve into the revolutionary journey of MTV, exploring how it transformed the music industry, defined youth culture, and paved the way for reality television. Leveraging the extensive transcript, the summary below captures all pivotal moments, discussions, insights, and conclusions presented by Nick and Jack.

---

1. Introduction to MTV's Genesis

The episode begins with Nick Martell and Jack Corvici Kramer reminiscing about the pre-internet era, highlighting how cultural memes like wearing pink after watching Mean Girls thrived through word-of-mouth, giving them lasting impact.

Nick Martell [00:10]:

"Cultural memes spread differently when you don't have the Internet in your pocket."

This sets the stage for discussing MTV's monumental role in shaping culture during its early years.

---

2. Key Figures: John Lack and Bob Pittman

The narrative introduces John Lack, a visionary cable executive, and Bob Pittman, a charismatic radio expert, who were instrumental in bringing MTV to life.

Nick Martell [05:58]:

"John Lack grew up in New York City, a rock and roll fan and a little bit of a rebel."

Jack Corvici Kramer [12:33]:

"Bob was John Lack's secret weapon to building MTV."

Their combined expertise and passion for music videos laid the foundation for MTV's innovative concept.

---

3. Overcoming the Penguin Problem

A significant challenge, termed the "penguin problem", involved securing commitments from both Warner Amex (the funding) and the record labels (providing content) simultaneously. John Lack ingeniously convinced Warner Amex to fund MTV by promising free music content, even before securing record label agreements.

Nick Martell [43:03]:

"John Lack needed to convince Warner and Amex to greenlight it. He needed record labels to offer their content for free. But neither would commit without the other committing."

This strategic maneuver successfully navigated the initial hurdles, allowing MTV to launch.

---

4. Breaking Barriers with Michael Jackson

One of the most pivotal moments for MTV was its collaboration with Michael Jackson. Initially reluctant to feature Billie Jean due to its R&B roots, MTV faced pressure from Epic Records, leading to a breakthrough that opened the doors for numerous Black artists.

Jack Corvici Kramer [25:30]:

"MTV says no to Michael Jackson. They say that Billie Jean is R B, not rock and roll."

Nick Martell [27:00]:

"It's a sens. Well, this opens up the floodgates because Michael's presence on the MTV airways opens the door for other black artists on the channel too."

This breakthrough not only diversified MTV's music roster but also significantly boosted its viewership and cultural relevance.

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5. MTV's Expansion: Spring Break and Immersive Events

To strengthen its connection with the audience, MTV ventured into live events like MTV Spring Break, transforming the brand from a television experience to a physical one.

Nick Martell [31:40]:

"MTV is strategically expanding the brand from a visual experience to a physical experience."

These events became annual rituals, enhancing MTV's presence and fostering a deeper bond with its youth audience.

---

6. Evolution into Reality TV: The Real World

Building on the success of immersive events, MTV pioneered reality television with shows like The Real World. This move was both a strategic and financial boon, allowing MTV to produce engaging content without the high costs of scripted TV.

Nick Martell [36:07]:

"The Real World is the response to a directive from MTV's top brass who said create a new teenage soap opera complete with hookups and breakups."

The show not only tripled MTV's primetime audience but also addressed significant social issues, making it a culturally impactful series.

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7. Decline and Lasting Impact

Despite its early successes, MTV faced challenges as reality shows began to dominate its programming, leading to a decline in viewership by the late 2000s. However, the cultural imprint of MTV remained indelible.

Jack Corvici Kramer [41:37]:

"Pour one out for Pauly D. But..."

Nick Martell [41:37]:

"Hey, while viewership may be down, MTV's cultural impact, it remains with us to this day."

MTV's legacy is underscored by its role in popularizing music videos and influencing global pop culture.

---

8. Lessons from MTV's Journey

The hosts conclude with insightful takeaways from MTV's story:

• Solving the Penguin Problem: Nick Martell explains how John Lack's strategy overcame simultaneous commitment challenges from key stakeholders.

  Nick Martell [42:17]:

  "MTV solved the penguin problem by telling Warner Amex the content would be free, even though he hadn't gotten the labels on board yet."

• Identifying the Missing User: Jack Corvici Kramer emphasizes the importance of targeting underserved demographics.

  Jack Corvici Kramer [43:20]:

  "Look for the missing user. Sometimes the best customer is the one who's missing."

These lessons highlight the significance of strategic problem-solving and market identification in achieving monumental success.

---

Bonus: Fun Facts and Trivia

The episode wraps up with intriguing tidbits about MTV's broader influence:

• Adam Sandler's Start: Before his fame, Adam Sandler appeared on MTV's Remote Control.

  Jack Corvici Kramer [44:09]:

  "Did you know that Adam Sandler got his start on MTV?"

• Real World’s Social Impact: 16 and Pregnant notably contributed to a reduction in teen birth rates by nearly 6%.

• First Words on MTV: The iconic opening, "Ladies and gentlemen. Rock and roll," was spoken by John Lack himself.

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Conclusion

The Best Idea Yet masterfully chronicles MTV's transformative journey from a nascent cable channel to a cultural powerhouse. Through strategic innovation, overcoming industry barriers, and continuously adapting to audience demands, MTV not only redefined music consumption but also left an enduring legacy on global pop culture. Nick and Jack's insightful analysis offers valuable business lessons on identifying niche markets, solving complex interdependencies, and the enduring impact of pioneering ventures.

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For those intrigued by the untold stories behind your favorite products and the bold visionaries behind them, subscribe to The Best Idea Yet on the Wondery App or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Nick Martell]

Wondery subscribers can listen to the best idea yet, early and ad free right now.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

[Nick Martell]

Wondery. I mean, I'm not aging us here because I think it's the case for most of our audience, Jack, but when we were in high school, smartphones didn't exist.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

No, they did not.

[Nick Martell]

It was a big deal if someone had a razor or a Sidekick. And you could pretty much only play Snake on one of those things.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Yeah, I had a flip phone that I only got freshman year of college.

[Nick Martell]

Cultural memes spread differently when you. You don't have the Internet in your pocket.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Well, that's because it spread through word of mouth, so it has a little more staying power.

[Nick Martell]

And as a result, when something spread, it took over the entire semester. Even the movies had a different impact. Like Mean Girls, everyone was showing up wearing pink for the next three months.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

It's almost hard to imagine one viral moment capturing our entire generation for such a long stretch of time today.

[Nick Martell]

That's exactly it, Jack. Like the media environment today, it is so fragmented. Everyone's news feeds are personalized. It is hard to envision, say, one platform or one TV channel with the power to define culture.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

But for Anyone born before Y2K, this place did exist once, and it was known by three initials. Mtv. I want my mtv.

[Nick Martell]

I want my mtv.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

I want my mtv.

[Nick Martell]

Home of hair metal and headbangers, parachute pants and baby tees, and rappers spitting rhymes into a camera that for some reason were always at ankle height.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Yeah, hip hop stars in the 90s had to have really strong calves and hamstrings.

[Nick Martell]

MTV delivered the biggest names in music right to our living rooms. From Madonna to Bjork to Beyonce, Biggie and Tupac. Bright Girls and Spice Girls, Prince and the King of Pop.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

And if cultivating the music video industry wasn't enough, MTV also hits us with a brand new category of television, reality TV. An industry that is now worth almost $2 billion in the US alone.

[Nick Martell]

There's no Real Housewives today without yesterday's Real World Road Rules Challenge.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

And MTV was also the creative force behind Beavis and Butthead and movies like Napoleon Dynamite.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, and Jack, the Video music awards, the VMAs, the award show that launched a thousand memes.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Add it all up and there's a fair argument to make that no single TV channel changed culture as much as MTV. But when MTV launched in 1981, its success was as uncertain as a victim on Ashton Kutcher's Punked.

[Nick Martell]

So Besties Today we're going to hear how MTV honed in on a lucrative but totally untapped demographic teens to not just reflect culture, but to define a generation.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

And along the way, we'll visit MTV Spring Break, we'll visit Total Request Live, and we'll probably end up landing on the Jersey Shore.

[Nick Martell]

Plus, we'll tell you what MTV's entire business model has to do with penguins in Antarctica.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

So hit the dance floor before the beat drops and frost those tips. Here's why MTV is the best idea yet.

[Nick Martell]

From Wondery and T Boy. I'm Nick Martell.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

And I'm Jack Corvici Kramer.

[Nick Martell]

And this is the best idea yet. The untold origin stories of the products.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

You'Re obsessed with and the bold risk takers who made them go viral. I got that feeling again. Something familiar but new. We got it coming to you. I got that feeling. Change the game in one move. Here's how they.

[Nick Martell]

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[Jack Corvici Kramer]

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[Nick Martell]

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[Nick Martell]

You smell that? That's a mix of English leather, Aqua Velva and Old Spice, the reigning aftershaves of the late 1970s. The sprawling conference space of Los Angeles's Sheraton Universal Hotel. And it's filled with executives slathered in all that stuff as they mill around in wide lapel jackets talking about the future of the music business.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

It's November 1979 and Billboard magazine has its eye on the future. They're hosting the first video music conference and a 35 year old cable executive named John Lack is getting ready for his big moment.

[Nick Martell]

Now in 1979, a video music conference sounds a little bit Like a Mars tourism seminar. Because at this moment, music videos are barely even a thing, and they are definitely not on tv.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

You can find music on TV from time to time on shows like American Bandstand and Soul Train. But music videos as we know them exist in only a tiny niche space. Record labels create them as short promotional films, like movie trailers, but for an upcoming song or album.

[Nick Martell]

A great example of this Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody, Galileo.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Galileo. But there's no good platform for music videos yet.

[Nick Martell]

Now, our guy John, he wants to change that. And that's why he's here at the Los Angeles Sheraton Hotel, surrounded by all that aftershave smell. He's preparing his mental note cards for a panel called Video Music. Tomorrow is here Today.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

We'll come back to this event in a second, but first, some context on who this guy is and why he's so excited about this concept.

[Nick Martell]

John Lack grew up in New York City, a rock and roll fan and a little bit of a rebel. He'd obsess over artists like Elvis Presley and Chubby Checker, Buddy Holly and Richie Valens. He would even sneak out of prep school just to see one of these rock concerts.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Picture young John rocking a leather jacket, running a comb through his grease pack hair.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, and then Jack, didn't he, like, get kicked out of school when he was younger, too, for doing something pretty legendary, actually.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

He got caught drinking out of his state wrestling championship trophy. Well, Jon has straightened up since then, but he's still a big personality. With the confidence of a new car salesman, he got his start at WCBS radio in New York before moving to Warner Communications to help grow a new thing at the time called cable tv.

[Nick Martell]

And John had just recently overseen the nationwide launch of an early cable channel that's just for kids. It's called Nickelodeon. Kids, it's up to you. Watch Nickelodeon every day or else. Give him the Emmy. Just give him the Emmy, Jack.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Now, obviously, kids programming existed long before Nickelodeon, like Sesame street and Mr. Rogers.

[Nick Martell]

But Nickelodeon is nothing but kids shows, 13 straight hours every single day, and it's available only to cable subscribers. It's bringing rugrats and green slime to the masses, becoming a major new business driver for its parent company.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

So when Nickelodeon debuts nationally in April 1979, its audience is around 500,000 households. But immediately Warner projects that number to triple.

[Nick Martell]

Those are huge growth numbers. Now, John, he may be an adult, but he's actually learning from Nickelodeon. He sees how targeting a specific age can drive audience growth. It's actually counterintuitive but going niche can actually mean going big. And so he sees an opportunity here. What age group doesn't have a show for them yet on this new cable tv? Jack?

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Teens. The hard to get youth vote that anchors the most coveted demographic in advertising, ages 12 to 34. Get them on your side and your business is hold free. So John turns his attention to this demographic that, like kids before Nickelodeon, seems totally untapped.

[Nick Martell]

And as John is pondering this, Mike Nesmith, the guitarist from the Monkees, he's pitching John on a little pilot that he's been working on. It's called pop clips, a 30 minute show that plays different video music clips on TV.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Mike's been shopping this pilot to every TV network he can get a meeting with, but no bites yet until he shows it to John Lack. He thinks Pop Clips is a great idea. He starts developing this musical pilot to air on Nickelodeon.

[Nick Martell]

But that's only the beginning. John thinks that the music video format could actually be way, way bigger than just one show on a kid's channel. John has this gut feeling that music videos could sustain an entire cable network micro targeted to teens. Just like Nickelodeon targets kids under 10.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Which is why John is getting ready to take the stage at this aqua velvet scented music video conference. Shh. His panel on video music is about to begin.

[Nick Martell]

And on this panel, John preaches. Preach John. And he shares this vision for an all music video channel. A channel that he'd have killed to watch back when he was a rebellious teenager. Airing 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Just music videos. John is hopeful the crowd isn't just full of network suits. There are music suits here too. Maybe they'll understand how big this idea could be for them.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

As if to prove that point, someone in the audience stands up. It's Sidney Sheinberg, president of MCA Records. They rep Elton John, Neil Diamond, Leonard Skynyrd.

[Nick Martell]

So John holds his breath, expecting Sid to start a slow clap.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

But instead, Sid says, we ain't giving you our music.

[Nick Martell]

Okay, that feels like it's going to be a problem, Jack.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

So the thing about record labels is they do not like giving out their core product for free.

[Nick Martell]

Cough. Cough Napster.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

We just saw this play out recently when Universal Music Group pulled its entire music catalog off TikTok because they wanted more revenue per play.

[Nick Martell]

Beyonce ain't unicef. She's not giving out this stuff for free, man.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

And in late 1979, before the streaming era, record labels are at the height of their powers.

[Nick Martell]

So yetis John Lack's idea of playing music videos 24,7 royalty free. That is without paying the labels for their content. To record executives like Sid, that sounds like a lot of money left on the table. Why would they agree to that?

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

No free music from the record labels means no green light from Warner, who are the ones who actually fund the project.

[Nick Martell]

Actually, Jack, we should point out a funny little business wrinkle here. Because it's not just Warner's board who has to say yes to this music channel idea. It's also American Express.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Right. As John is sweating it out at this conference, Warner Cable is in the midst of a merger with the credit.

[Nick Martell]

Card giant, let's just call them Warner Amex for now. But Jack, let's go back to our guy John. He actually needs 25 million bucks in order to get music television channel off the ground. And he's got to get half of that from Amex and half of it from Warner.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Which means John has to convince two multinational corporations even before he gets to the record company conundrum. So he's going to need help getting everyone on board. Someone smart, with charisma, who knows the music landscape inside and out.

[Nick Martell]

So John brings in a new hire. One that will end up being the key to everything. The Mississippi hippie.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Sounds like a WWE wrestler.

[Nick Martell]

It does. But his actual real name is Robert Pittman, aka Bob. He's 26 and flies airplanes in his spare time. He sports long hair and he's also got a glass eye. Bob was born in Jackson, Mississippi, hence the nickname. At the age of six, he actually lost his eyeball in a horseback riding accident. So as a teenager, he finds his first calling in the audio industry. And he actually becomes an on air DJ at the young age of 15.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Bob's been working at NBC Radio until John recruits him to Warner Amex to help him build this new cable TV channel.

[Nick Martell]

He's John Lack's secret weapon to building mtv.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Because remember, to get music television going, John has to win over two opposing parties.

[Nick Martell]

The Warner Amex board, the ones with the money and the green light power. And the record labels, the ones with all the music.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Making headway with either side though takes months. By now we're well into 1980.

[Nick Martell]

Okay, so Jack, how is he approaching the board?

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

He focuses his pitch on the thing he knows they care about. Demographics. Fact teens are an untapped market. Fact teens drive culture. And fact culture drives spending. With Nickelodeon, John's already proved that micro targeting one age group works.

[Nick Martell]

But the spending power of the under 12 set, it is nothing compared to teenagers. Not Only will teens drive cable subscriptions. Teens will drive ad revenue. Finally, after what feels like a zillion pitch meetings, John finds himself, Bob Pittman and a handful of other Warner execs in the room where it happens. A meeting with the CEO of American Express.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Remember, John needs $25 million and half comes from Amex. So there's a lot riding on this conversation.

[Nick Martell]

This Amex CEO, by his own admission, he doesn't really get the whole music on TV thing. So he keeps asking, like, where do you get your raw material? What does it cost to shoot a video? Who is Bon Jovi?

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Forget about whether these record companies will license their songs for free. What's the cost of producing the actual goods?

[Nick Martell]

Fair questions. But that's when Bob the radio expert hits AMEX with a fun fact. Zero. As in making music videos will cost the network nothing.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Remember what we learned about music videos earlier? They started as promotional material, as in content that record companies are already giving away for free. After all, what is a music video but a really fun commercial for the band and for the label? Both are trying to sell albums.

[Nick Martell]

Well, once the finance guys at AMEX understand that they won't have to pay for licensing or the video shoots they're in. And Warner, they quickly follow. Boom check. MTV just got greenlit.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

The money's in the bank. But now they need one more thing. They need some music.

[Nick Martell]

So John Lack and Bob Pittman's corporate funding is secured. But it's also contingent on somehow convincing stubborn record moguls to continue footing the bill for new music videos and then sharing those videos with MTV for free.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

What was that quote from the record guy, Sid Sheinberg? We ain't giving you our music. This is gonna be a tough sell.

[Nick Martell]

So Bob, the ex radio guy, he calls in every favor that he has in the record industry. He hits the road trying to bring record companies on board with mtv. His strategy? Focus on what the record labels need.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Bob tells them cable is growing, teens are watching, and every video you make is like a natural ad campaign, micro targeted at your core audience. Only here you don't have to pay for the airtime. Instead of paying CBS to promote your album in a 30 second TV commercial, we'll promote your album to a more targeted audience for free with an entire three or four minute music video. And unlike on radio, every time a video gets played, MTV will display captions naming the song title, the artist and the record label.

[Nick Martell]

Well, Jack, when you frame it that way, music television starts to make a lot more sense to the music executives. And by the end of this whirlwind Pitch tour, Bob has cleared about 250 music videos to use on MTV. Not a massive number, but I guess pretty good start considering where we began.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Just one wrinkle. 30 of those videos are from one single artist.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, and who is that randomly Rod Stewart. Yeah, Rod Stewart was like one out of every eight songs on mtv. If my mom knew that, she would have been watching a whole lot of mtv.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

In the end, MTV just rolls with it. Get ready, though, because MTV's launch day is just around the corner. This episode is presented by Lenovo. When it comes to the computer you use every day, that's a companion that rivals your romantic partner in intimacy. Yes, it is, Jack.

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[Nick Martell]

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[Jack Corvici Kramer]

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[Nick Martell]

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[Jack Corvici Kramer]

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[Nick Martell]

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[Nick Martell]

It'S midnight on August 1st, 1981, and you're a 16 year old kid in the Cleveland suburbs. You spent all yesterday at the skate park and you've been slamming Mountain Dew since 7am so what's an insomniac teen to do when they're up this late?

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Turn on the TV and channel surf.

[Nick Martell]

With the remote in your hand, you're trying to find something on that isn't an infomercial and suddenly you see something different. Ladies and gentlemen, rock and roll. Well, grab another Mountain Dew, Jack, because after that message, you are about to witness the first music video ever to air on mtv. And you're into it.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

And based on the choice for that first music video, the message is not subtle.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, the business undertones, Jack. This is Shakespearean.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Yeah, yeah. This song by the Buggles pretty much sums up MTV's mission statement. MTV spends a lot of this first broadcast onboarding their audience, basically saying, here's what we are, here's why we're different. It actually doesn't sound that much different than an infomercial.

[Nick Martell]

But don't worry, Cleveland teens, you won't be stuck in infomercial land forever. Because next up, meet the VJs. Well, all right, I'm J.J. jackson.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

I'll be sitting in with the latest video music performances the way they were meant to be on MTV Music Television. You'll never look at music the same way again. That's short for video jockeys, the TV equivalent of disc jockeys. The VJs are foundational to MTV's early appeal. They are the faces of the brand. Here's how Bob Pittman puts it. Nobody falls in love with the jukebox. You have to have a bond with a human being. So the VJs don't just play the next song. They also share music news about things like Madonna's upcoming tour, Van Halen's new album art, and behind the scenes tidbits about the videos that you're watching. Viewers connect with these liaises. And when it comes to choosing the VJs, John Lack is not afraid to typecast.

[Nick Martell]

He's like, let's get one girl next door and let's get one boy next door and let's have a couple of hotties thrown in there.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

These are all the cool looking young people you take fashion advice from. In fact, Mark Goodman, he's so cool, he's actually sitting on top of the desk with his legs crossed.

[Nick Martell]

Take that, society.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Mark is the one to guide us through these first critical hours of mtv.

[Nick Martell]

We hear bands like the who, the Pretenders, Pat Benatar.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

You can definitely feel something in the air tonight.

[Nick Martell]

Now, does the audio drop sometimes? Yes. Do the camera cues get sloppy? Also? Yes. But even the flubs, they feel scrappy. And scrappy is authentic.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

And everyone watching MTV's midnight debut is stepping into an elevator on the ground floor of something huge.

[Nick Martell]

And that elevator, it is only going up, baby. Just five months after launching, Fortune magazine declares MTV the product of the year.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

At the time of the launch, MTV is available to less than 3 million cable subscribers. But within two years, viewership shoots to 13 million.

[Nick Martell]

Okay, that is quintupling its subscriber numbers.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

And it becomes the highest rated cable channel ever. At the time. Just one year in, the network makes makes more in ad revenue than any other Cable channel. By 1984, MTV is in the black.

[Nick Martell]

Basically, John's BET was right.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Young people are craving this content. And MTV isn't just showcasing youth culture. They're actively defining it by curating new artists for young people all across America.

[Nick Martell]

This isn't just a channel, mtv. It is a platform. What Instagram is today for influencers, MTV was becoming for musical artists.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

But as Spider Man's Uncle Ben tells him, with great power comes great responsibility. And in this sense, MTV is about to really drop the ball. It occurred to me, having watched MTV over the last few months, that it's a solid enterprise and it's got a lot going for it.

[Nick Martell]

That is the iconic David Bowie, and he's sitting across from VJ Mark Goodman for an interview segment on MTV News. It's meant to promote Bowie's latest hit single, let's Dance.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Bowie wears a brown tweed suit jacket and a tie and still manages to look like the coolest man you've ever seen.

[Nick Martell]

It is 1983, and MTV has come a long way from the channel that was 12% Rod Stewart. They're not just showing videos these days. They're interviewing the stars themselves. But even as Bowie praises the network, our video jockey Mark seems a little bit nervous because he knows there's a but in Bowie's question.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

I'm just floored by the fact that there's so few black artists featured on it. Why is that?

[Nick Martell]

I think that we're trying to move in that direction. We want to play artists that seem to be doing music that fits into what we want to play for mtv. The company is thinking in terms of narrow casting.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

That's evident narrow casting.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, that's a marketing term that generally is harmless. But in this context, it is coded language that both Bowie and the audience can see straight through.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

For all the ways MTV is ahead of its time, they're behind in one big one. They have actively avoided showcasing black talent.

[Nick Martell]

And it's not like black artists aren't available at that time.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Have you heard of Michael Jackson?

[Nick Martell]

By 1983, it is hard to find someone who hasn't heard of Michael. He's been a star since his days in the Jackson 5, back when he was just a tween. In 1983, he just, just invented the moonwalk. Michael's single Billie Jean, it climbs to number one and it stays there for seven straight weeks. His record label, Epic, it asks MTV to air Michael's elaborate, exciting and expensive new video for the song. But the execs over at mtv, they look at it and they say no.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Even though the whole country wants to listen to Michael Jackson's music and see him moonwalking something. Something they probably only heard rumors of at this point. MTV says no to Michael Jackson. They say that Billie Jean is R B, not rock and roll.

[Nick Martell]

Ah, they're narrow casting.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Now. Bob Pittman, our hippie from Mississippi, defends this approach in an interview, claiming that specialization is what makes cable work.

[Nick Martell]

It's true that specialization was key to the MTV pitch as a way for the network to target one slice of the demographic.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

But MTV's reluctance to put Billie Jean in their rotation exposes an ugly fact. When network execs say we cater to.

[Nick Martell]

Teens, the teens they're talking about are white teens. Epic Records smells what's happening here and they decide to fight back.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Epic is owned at the time by Columbia Records, a division of cbs. And CBS represents a lot of artists beyond Michael the Moonwalker Jackson.

[Nick Martell]

So Columbia goes big here. They tell MTV that if they don't air Billie Jean, they are gonna pull all of their musicians videos from the entire network. We're talking Journey, Pink Floyd and a whole bunch of major hit makers beloved by MTV's non R& B teen audience. Wink, wink. So no Michael, no Dark side of the moon.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

MTV's response to this musical showdown? They cave. They finally air Billie Jean.

[Nick Martell]

And the result?

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

No shocker.

[Nick Martell]

It's a sens. Well, this opens up the floodgates because Michael's presence on the MTV airways opens the door for other black artists on the channel too. Prince, Whitney Houston, Salt and Peppa Run dmc, Michael's little sister Janet, and later.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

MC Hammer, Public Enemy Mary J. Blige, Boys to Men. Literally thousands of talented black artists get their first drops on MTV thanks to this MJ drama.

[Nick Martell]

This Billie Jean breakthrough also paves the way for Michael's own Magnum opus, the 14 minute monster movie and dance video all in one.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Thriller.

[Nick Martell]

MTV premieres the Thriller video on December 2, 1983. Oh, and they don't just play it, they play it. As in, they air this one music video three to five times a day.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Not only that, but the VJs start announcing to the audience the next time they're going to play Thriller again. That single song becomes a NonStop part of MTV's 247 content rotation.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, and on the business side, there's a huge ROI on that single music video. Get this. On the days they air thriller on MTV, their audience ratings go up 10x. Now, it'll take MTV another five years before they create Yo. MTV Raps, an hour totally dedicated to hip hop. But when they do, it opens the door to a more diverse, less sanitized kind of music.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

And of course, MTV's viewers end up loving it.

[Nick Martell]

Suburbs in the mid-90s. They fill up with blonde kids rapping along to Snoop and Dre on the school bus home from lacrosse practice. They're sipping on Capri sun and listening to gin and Juice. And just think, MTV almost missed out on all of that.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

MTV was supposed to be dark, defining culture, not retreating from it. This is a good reminder that when you lose track of your first principles, you lose track of opportunity.

[Nick Martell]

Speaking of first principles, Jack, and defining culture, I think it is time for us to shift to a way less serious, more Lowbrow chapter in MTV's Journey.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

I think I know where you're going. Let's grab the SPF and catch some waves. Is it the middle of March yet?

[Nick Martell]

All right, Jack, let's trade that Capri sun for a Corona because it's springtime in Daytona Beach, Florida. 1986. V.J. allen Hunter. He stands on a windy stretch of sand, microphone in hand, and this Alabama native is doing what he does best, talking to strangers in bikinis.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Students from all over the country scrimp and save, practice their belly flops. They tighten their buns, they work out a little bit, they drive for days.

[Nick Martell]

On end just to spend a couple.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Of days here in Daytona Beach. Allen himself is not in a bikini. He's wearing a sweatshirt. It's chillier than you might think on this Florida beach in March.

[Nick Martell]

Well, this windswept interview is actually the tamest that MTV spring break is ever going to get for a whole week. Allen is playing a Southern boy, David Attenborough, capturing spring breakers in their natural environment. He interviews Hawaiian tropic model chants with frat boys. And when the cameras are shut off at night. Yeah. He explores the clubs and the party scene.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

MTV spring break is a Coppertone scented experiment that'll become an annual ritual for the network. The most profitable form of entertainment in the last half century.

[Nick Martell]

MTV has already proven itself the king of the youth market. It's in over 28 million homes at this point. And just a year prior, it was acquired by Viacom in a massive deal worth about $700 million.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Not bad for a channel that was launched for $25 million and handful of Rod Stewart singles.

[Nick Martell]

Now at this point, John Lack he actually left mtv. He's gone on to invest in a video vending machine startup, which sounds awesome, but unfortunately it doesn't work out.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Don't worry too much for John. He goes on to Co found ESPN2 later.

[Nick Martell]

But for Bob Pittman and the other MTV executives, they are ready to push some boundaries. So they start wondering, how could they make MTV immersive?

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

That's when they come up with a plan for spring break as an IRL experience. A no Rules live event that every college, high school, and from personal experience, middle school kid badly wants to be a part of. In between sunburned shoulders and barefoot interviews, there's some actual music too. They host live pool deck concerts featuring acts from Radiohead to the Beastie Boys.

[Nick Martell]

Listen, everybody, listen one and all.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

We down to Daytona and we have a divorce One week spring break.

[Nick Martell]

It ain't funny said two days passed and I'm running out of Money.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

If MTV 1.0 brought youth culture to your living room, MTV 2.0 is designed to draw youths out of the living room and onto the beach. MTV is strategically expanding the brand from a visual experience to a physical experience.

[Nick Martell]

But besties, hold onto your tankinis because this spring break formula is not without its problems. As VJ Allan Hunter himself points out, the environment is less than ideal for his female colleagues. He'll later note to GQ that Martha Quinn didn't want to be jumping into a pool in her bikini around a whole bunch of drunk frat boys.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Fair point. Plus, MTV's presence at Daytona beach has side effects for the town. In 1989, just three years into the spring break experiment, this kind of chill resort town is now swamped by 400,000 incoming partygoers. And it leads to tragedy. Eight different people fall off of balconies that year, one of them fatally well.

[Nick Martell]

After that, MTV, they start rotating in new locations like Panama City beach and Cancun, Mexico. It's as if with spring break, we are watching MTV go through a type of business puberty. MTV is awkwardly figuring things out as it grows, just like its viewers are in real Life.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Turns out MTV's key learning from spring break isn't about high cut swimsuits or wet T shirt contests. It's about creating live experiences that strengthen their relationship to their audience.

[Nick Martell]

And that insight is what leads to MTV's cornerstone show of the millennium, the one that will define its daily programming, not just its seasonal spring break programming.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

How do they take what works on a hot Florida beach two weeks of the year and scale it to a show that can be produced all year long?

[Nick Martell]

How are they gonna pull it off? Jack?

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Well, for the next six years, Carson Daly will reign supreme as the host of a new daily interview slash request show, Total Request Live.

[Nick Martell]

Hey, it's Carson Daly here. I'm coming up next is TRL Top 10 north certifications. Mark Wahlberg will be here.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

It's coming up next on MTV. TRL.

[Nick Martell]

TRL debuts in 1998 at the MTV studio in Times Square. And there Carson will interview the hottest musical acts in front of a live studio audience, taking their lessons from MTV spring break.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Side note, on any given day, Christina Aguilera or Britney Spears were number one and Backstreet Boys and NS were number two.

[Nick Martell]

Britney didn't have off days though.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

The interactive nature of this show jumps up several notches from anything MTV has done before. Viewers at home can actually call in and vote for their favorite music video to be number one that day.

[Nick Martell]

Meanwhile, Jack in Times Square, fans who can't be in the studio are screaming from street level for their favorite artists. TRL is a direct reflection of what MTV has learned from their spring break era. The fans want in. They want to see themselves in the programming. In fact, maybe the music isn't even the most important part of the product. What if the real intrigue for young viewers is just watching other young people like themselves?

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

This realization will lead MTV to their boldest pivot yet, which we'll pivot to in a moment.

[Nick Martell]

This episode is sponsored by Abbott. Let's talk about a small thing that can make a big difference if you have diabetes. The Freestyle Libre 3 Plus sensor. It's amazing to see how the sensor gives you real time glucose readings so you can see the impact of every meal and activity to make better choices. The Freestyle Libre 3 Plus sensor can help you live life with diabetes on your terms. You can try it for free at freestylelibre.us. offer available for people who qualify. Visit MyFreestyle US to see all terms and conditions. Certain exclusions apply for prescription only. Safety info found @freestylelibre us. Blobby lava lamps, a massive fish tank. A pool table with a giant red bow. Like it's Christmas morning. It's February 1992 and 20 year old Eric Nyes has just walked through the door of a huge apartment in New York City. City the loft. It's big enough for eight people. But right now, Eric is all alone.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

This is the true story. True story.

[Nick Martell]

Seven strangers pick to live in a loft and have their lives taped to.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Find out what happens. What when people stop being polite. Could you get the phone and start getting real? The Real World Nick this is the most efficient intro ever. Tells you everything you need to know about it.

[Nick Martell]

When you think reality TV now you might picture Kardashians or a real housewife throwing a goblet of water in someone's sister's face. But back then, MTV's the Real World is closer to actual reality. And the cast members, ages 19 to 26, they do get real about religion, race, abortion, illness, sexuality. Every issue that is on the minds of MTV's teen audience.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

The show is actually the response to a directive from MTV's top brass who said create a new teenage soap opera complete with hookups and breakups and late night visits between housemates. And yeah, they'll even put cameras in bedrooms that capture the action from above the sheets.

[Nick Martell]

Oh yeah, mtv. They make sure to catch the spicy moments because at this point in the early 90s, music on television is no longer revolutionary. MTV's sibling channel, VH1, it is doing the exact same thing as MTV. And MTV, they've gone from bratty newcomer to a cable institution. In a way, Jack, MTV is kind of a victim of its its own success. Becoming the top watched cable channel inevitably would lead to new competition.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

The network is searching for the next content frontier. So teen soap opera it is. Except producing soap operas is expensive. You know what's not expensive? Producing reality show.

[Nick Martell]

Even one that requires you to rent a 6,500 square foot loft in New York SoHo.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Get this, a single episode of the Real World World cost just over a hundred thousand dollars to make. That's about 1:10 the price tag of a typical scripted TV show in that era. No scripts, so you don't pay writers. No big actors, so no big paychecks. The fixed costs of a reality show are much leaner than scripted tv. And that's why the execs are all in. Reality TV is another financial trick shot, another huge chunk of the day with programming on MTV that's next to first.

[Nick Martell]

On the other hand, Jack, espn, they have to pay the NFL billions of dollars to broadcast their football games.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

But MTV pays a handful of 19 to 26 year olds just $2,600 a piece for the entire season of Real World.

[Nick Martell]

Plus room and board and alcohol. Now, like almost every new step that MTV takes, this format, it is a risk, but it is a calculated risk. And it pays off big.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

When the show airs in 1992, the Real World triples MTV's primetime audience.

[Nick Martell]

Not quite thriller numbers, but still pretty great. Plus generates a ton of press, putting MTV right back in the cultural zeitgeist.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

And amazingly, the show keeps making news after season one. Like in season three's San Francisco season.

[Nick Martell]

One of the cast members, Pedro Zamora, is a gay man living with aids. And he actually talks about his diagnosis with a freedom not really seen anywhere else on tv.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

For a lot of viewers, Pedro is the first openly gay man they've ever seen. Forget about the first gay man with hiv.

[Nick Martell]

And at a time when people wrongly think that you can get AIDS just by hugging or touching an infected person, Pedro is right there, living his life in a tight shared space with seven other people.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

It's a groundbreaking moment of culturally leadership for the network.

[Nick Martell]

Now, of course, not all of the stuff in this season is culturally important. Like, there is plenty of infighting and there is a good dollop or two of jealousy.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Remember Puck?

[Nick Martell]

Yeah.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

He would stick his bare fingers in the house's peanut butter.

[Nick Martell]

Okay, that's the kind of thing that gets you kicked out.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

But still, the way the real world handles real issues makes it resonate.

[Nick Martell]

And if you've ever shaken your fist at the sky and cursed MTV for getting you hooked on reality tv, well, you're in good company. Because the first people to get addicted are the MTV execs themselves. And they're going to go all in on this highly profitable new frontier known as reality tv. Jack, we do have some bad news for our listeners. But before we share that with them, there are so many MTV innovations that we haven't even discussed yet. Like the animation showcase Liquid Television, which.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Gave us Beavis and Butthead and Aon Flux and. And it inspired later work like King of the Hill and Office Space.

[Nick Martell]

And if Xzibit didn't show up to pimp your Prius, why Did you even bother to drive to school?

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

MTV has done a lot, but by.

[Nick Martell]

The early 2000s, they have slipped a few spots in the cultural rankings. Reality shows, they just start choking up MTV's entire daily schedule. First we got Road Rules, then Jackass cribs, punk, Laguna Beach 16 and pregnant, my super sweet 16. Even TRL is considered too music focused for MTV. And it peters out in 2008.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

The sea change really comes to a head with the Jersey Shore. And while the show scores some great ratings, great pre games and hard launches.

[Nick Martell]

The GTL Sundad Gymtan Laundry. It's a lifestyle.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

The Jersey Shore effectively marks the end of the letter M in MTV. As of October of last year, MTV was the 46th most popular channel on TV in the US with just 147,000 people watching during primetime. Pour one out for Pauly D. But.

[Nick Martell]

Hey, while viewership may be down, MTV's cultural impact, it remains with us to this day. Before mtv, music videos were just like commercials given out free by the labels, like the prize at the bottom of a cereal box. But MTV provided record labels with the correct incentives to invest in music videos. And now music videos are on every device you own.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

You could argue, and we will, that the three biggest moments for the music industry in the last century were streaming the iPod and MTV. So, Nick, now that we've heard the story of MTV, what's your takeaway?

[Nick Martell]

My takeaway is that MTV solved the penguin problem. The penguin problem is when one bird won't jump into the water water until another bird jumps in. You see this with penguins in real life, but it's a problem we see in the tech industry or other industries where there is a platform product.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

In order to launch mtv, John Lack needed to convince Warner and Amex to greenlight it. And he needed record labels to offer their content for free. But neither would commit without the other committing. Nobody wanted to jump in first.

[Nick Martell]

Now, John Lack cleverly solved this penguin problem problem by telling Warner MX the content would be free, even though he hadn't gotten the labels on board yet. He got one side to commit in order to get the other side to commit.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Some call it manifesting, others call it the power of positive thinking. He didn't lie to the network. We wouldn't advise that, but he convinced the network that the record labels would agree. And guess what? They did. So MTV solved the penguin problem.

[Nick Martell]

Yes, they did. But Jack, what about you? What's your takeaway?

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

For me, it's look for the missing user. Sometimes the best customer is the one who's missing. It sounds counterintuitive, but that's what led to MTV's success because no one was serving the teen audience yet on cable tv. John Lack realized this, so he helped build an entire network around the user who was missing.

[Nick Martell]

All right, Jack, another example of a missing user to today tech curious senior citizens.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Sure, there's a dating app for seniors, but every technology category should have a company targeting older people. Like Cash App for seniors.

[Nick Martell]

We think Eddies, that the tech industry would do well to create products targeting older people. Now time for the best facts yet. Our favorite tidbits and factoids. We just couldn't fit into the story. But we also couldn't leave you without Jack. Take it away.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Did you know that Adam Sandler got his start on mtv? Not sick mtv. It was a comedy game show called Remote Control.

[Nick Martell]

Remote Control. It actually also Featured another future SNL cast member, Colin Quinn.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Here's another one. MTV's reality show 16 and Pregnant actually had a real world impact. The show was credited with reducing teen birth rates by almost 6%. And last but not least, the very first words spoken on mtv. Remember, we played them earlier, Ladies and gentlemen. Rock and roll. Well, that voice belonged to none other than John Lack himself, the guy who.

[Nick Martell]

Got kicked out of high school for drinking out of a wrestling trophy. And that's why MTV is the Best idea Yet.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Coming up on the next episode of the Best Idea Yet.

[Nick Martell]

We love the fishes cuz they're so delicious. It's the untold origin story of Goldfish crackers. The best idea yet is a production of Wondery hosted by me, Nick Martel.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

And me, Jack Crevici Kramer.

[Nick Martell]

And hey, if you have a product you're obsessed with but you wish you knew the backstory, drop us a comment. We'll look into it for you. Oh, and don't forget to rate and review the podcast five stars that helps grow the show.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Our senior producers are Matt Beagle and Chris Gaultier.

[Nick Martell]

Peter Arcuni is our additional senior producer.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Our senior managing producer is Nick Ryan. And Taylor Sniff is our managing producer.

[Nick Martell]

Our associate producer and researcher is H. Conley.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

This episode was written by Marina Templesman and Katie Clark Gray and it was produced by Katie Clark Gray.

[Nick Martell]

We used many sources in our research, including I Want My MTV the Uncensored Story of the Music Video Revolution by Rob Tannenbaum and Craig Marks and MTV.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Whiz Jumps From Hyperactive to Interactive by Katherine Harris for the LA Times. Sound design and mixing by Kelly, fact.

[Nick Martell]

Checking by Erica Janik, music supervision by.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Scott Velazquez and Jolina Garcia for freesond Sync.

[Nick Martell]

Our theme song is Got that Feeling Again by Blackilac. Executive producers for Nick and Jack Studios.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Are me, Nick Martell and me Jack Revici Kramer.

[Nick Martell]

Executive producers for Wondery are Dave Easton, Jenny lauer, Beckman, Aaron O'Flaherty and Marshall Louis.

[Jack Corvici Kramer]

Follow the Best Idea yet on the Wondery App, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of the Best Idea yet early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery App or on Apple Podcasts.

[Nick Martell]

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, host of Wondery's Business Movers. In our latest series, media mogul Ted Turner launches a 24 hour channel dedicated solely to breaking news. But CNN doesn't just shake up the television industry, it transforms journalism, politics and culture in America forever. Listen to business movers making the news on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.