🛹 Skateboard: Defying Physics & Freaking Out Parents for 60+ Years | 42

Summary

Skateboarding: Defying Physics & Freaking Out Parents for 60+ Years

Episode: 🛹 Skateboard: Defying Physics & Freaking Out Parents for 60+ Years | 42
Release Date: July 29, 2025
Hosts: Nick Martell & Jack Crivici-Kramer

---

Introduction: The Rebel Toy That Shaped Culture

Nick Martell and Jack Crivici-Kramer delve into the fascinating history of the skateboard, a simple yet revolutionary invention that has influenced generations of fashion, culture, and music. They explore how a wooden plank with four wheels transcended its origins to become a symbol of teen rebellion and a staple in various subcultures.

---

Origins of Skateboarding: From Surfboards to Sidewalks

[04:14] Jack Crivici-Kramer: "This is Venice Beach, California, summer of 1962... sits 30-year-old lifeguard Larry Stevenson."

Larry Stevenson, a passionate surfer and lifeguard, observed surfers struggling with flat days and low swells. Inspired by their creativity, he began experimenting with surfboard-like planks on wheels, leading to the creation of one of the first commercial skateboards under the brand Makaha Skateboards.

[06:06] Nick Martell: "Larry's garage starts looking like the SoCal version of Santa's workshop."

With the collaboration of his wife Ellen, Larry developed prototypes and launched Makaha Skateboards in 1963, pricing them competitively to attract budding skaters. To promote the sport, Larry utilized his publishing venture, Surf Guide, to write about the emerging sidewalk surfing scene, effectively creating a new industry.

---

The Rise and First Boom: Pro Skateboarding and Media Attention

[08:10] Jack Crivici-Kramer: "The competition is pretty chill... the whole thing gets written up in Surf Guide."

In fall 1963, Makaha sponsored the first pro skateboarding team and organized official competitions, which propelled skateboarding into the spotlight. A pivotal figure emerged: Patty McGee, a fearless 19-year-old skater who captivated audiences with her daring stunts.

[10:10] Nick Martell: "Patty said this stunt involved, quote, no helmet, no pads, no shoes, and no brains."

Patty's charismatic performances, including a record-setting speed run and a feature in Life magazine, made her skateboarding's first national star. Her visibility drew attention but also sparked backlash from health associations and authorities, labeling skateboarding a "medical menace" and leading to widespread bans.

---

Innovation Amidst Backlash: Saving the Sport

[18:06] Jack Crivici-Kramer: "But skateboarding's biggest economic impact isn't in the boards... it's in the spin-off culture around skateboarding."

Despite the initial boom and subsequent bust in skateboarding's popularity during the 1960s, Larry Stevenson introduced the kicktail in 1969—a pivotal innovation that enhanced maneuverability and safety. This advancement allowed skaters to perform complex tricks like the ollie and kickflip, revitalizing the sport and paving the way for future generations.

[19:11] Nick Martell: "Rodney invented [the ollie]. He also invented the 360 flip, the finger flip, the pogo, and so many other tricks."

---

The Bones Brigade and the Media Explosion

[23:18] Nick Martell: "The Bones Brigade."

Stacy Peralta's Bones Brigade, a competitive skateboard team sponsored by Powell Peralta, became instrumental in popularizing skateboarding through media. The group's amateur film, highlighting skaters like Rodney Mullen and a young Tony Hawk, became a viral sensation in the pre-digital age, selling 30,000 copies and significantly boosting skateboarding's appeal.

[28:20] Jack Crivici-Kramer: "This first tape sells 30,000 copies... creating a whole flywheel of interest."

The Bones Brigade's influence led to massive sales, global recognition, and established skateboarding as a mainstream cultural force. Figures like Tony Hawk emerged, pushing the boundaries of the sport and embedding skateboarding deeply into popular culture.

---

Cultural Integration and Commercial Success

[36:20] Nick Martell: "The leader of this pack would probably be the sneaker brand Vans."

Skateboarding's impact extended beyond the sport itself, influencing fashion brands like Vans and Supreme, and spawning bestselling video games such as Tony Hawk's Pro Skater, which alone generated $1.4 billion in sales. The sport's integration into media and fashion solidified its cultural significance.

[37:52] Jack Crivici-Kramer: "Skateboarding may have started as a lo-fi hobby... today skateboarding has achieved cultural significance and full-on sports legitimacy."

The inclusion of skateboarding in the 2020 Tokyo Olympics marked its global acceptance and elevated its status as a legitimate competitive sport, ensuring its enduring presence in the athletic and cultural landscape.

---

Business Insights: The Five Forces of Skateboarding

[38:33] Nick Martell: "Respect the five forces of business... Competitive rivalry, supplier power, buyer power, threat of substitution, and threat of new entry."

Applying Michael Porter's Five Forces Framework, the hosts analyze skateboarding's unique business dynamics. High competitive rivalry and low barriers to entry initially hampered profits from board sales alone. However, the emergence of media spin-offs like the X Games and video games created significant supplier power, underpinning the industry's profitability.

[39:10] Jack Crivici-Kramer: "If one guy makes a great skateboard, another guy can make the same skateboard for a dollar less."

Media partnerships and exclusive endorsements, such as Tony Hawk's association with Pro Skater, monopolized market segments, driving substantial revenue beyond the sale of physical boards.

---

Conclusion: The Enduring Legacy of Skateboarding

[38:19] Nick Martell: "And unlike Pet Rock's pogo sticks or Jack's obsession with the twist, skateboarding ain't going anywhere."

Skateboarding's resilience is attributed to its deep-rooted underground community and its symbolic representation of rebellion. Its ability to adapt through continuous innovation and media integration has ensured its lasting impact on both business and culture.

[40:30] Jack Crivici-Kramer: "So again, the best thing that ever happened to the skateboard was it getting banned by the law."

The episode concludes by highlighting skateboarding's unique position as both a countercultural movement and a commercially successful industry, emphasizing its unparalleled ability to maintain relevance across decades.

---

Key Takeaways

1. Innovation Drives Revival: Innovations like the kicktail and polyurethane wheels were crucial in revitalizing skateboarding during its downturns.
2. Media Influence: Strategic use of media, from Life magazine to the Bones Brigade videos, played a significant role in popularizing skateboarding.
3. Cultural Integration: Skateboarding's influence on fashion, video games, and its inclusion in the Olympics exemplify its broad cultural impact.
4. Business Strategy: Leveraging Porter's Five Forces reveals how skateboarding transcended being a simple sport to become a profitable cultural phenomenon through media and brand partnerships.
5. Enduring Symbolism: Skateboarding's association with rebellion and its ability to evolve with cultural trends have cemented its place in global culture.

---

Featured Figures

• Larry Stevenson: Founder of Makaha Skateboards, a pioneer who transformed skateboarding from a surf-side hobby to a commercial sport.
• Patty McGee: The original female skateboarding star who brought national attention to the sport.
• Rodney Mullen: Inventor of numerous skateboarding tricks and considered the godfather of freestyle.
• Stacy Peralta: Entrepreneur behind the Bones Brigade, instrumental in the media-driven surge of skateboarding.
• Tony Hawk: Iconic skateboarder whose influence extended skateboarding into mainstream media and video games.

---

Fun Facts

• [40:51] Jack Crivici-Kramer: "What US City has the most skate parks per capita? Surprisingly, the winner is not in California. It's Laredo, Texas..."
• [36:53] Nick Martell: "Tony Hawk's Pro Skater video game series launched in 1999 has amassed $1.4 billion in sales."

---

Skateboarding's journey from a crude surfboard adaptation to a globally recognized sport underscores its unique ability to blend rebellion with commercial success. This episode of The Best Idea Yet offers an insightful exploration of how a simple idea can transcend its origins to shape and be shaped by culture and business alike.

Transcript

[Nick Martell]

Wondery subscribers can listen to the best idea yet, early and ad free. Right now.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Nick, do you remember that time we went mountain biking in Marin County?

[Nick Martell]

I'm gonna need a trigger warning on this. Yeah.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Do you remember how you described the activity of mountain biking?

[Nick Martell]

I believe I called mountain biking a a series of extremely close calls.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

To the right is a 100 foot cliff. To the left are gnarly branches that would rip your face off.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, I'm not gonna lie. I still don't understand what the payoff of that whole experience was, Jack. I mean, the most intense thing I've done is lacrosse, which I did get my teeth knocked out twice. And you drove me to the dentist, I believe.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I know that is a dangerous part.

[Nick Martell]

I had a lift for like three months, which could have really hurt my podcasting career.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Well, today we're talking about a rebellious activity where falling down and getting hurt is all part of the process. The skateboard. Behold.

[Nick Martell]

The amazing skateboard. One of the few toys capable of turning parents prematurely gray, sending kids off the wall and medical bills into the wild blue yonder. The skateboard, a wooden plank and four wheels, has defined generations of fashion, culture and music, powered by the unending fuel of teen rebellion.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Nick, were you ever a skater boy?

[Nick Martell]

I said see you later, boy.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Now with today's episode, we're actually trying something a little different. Unl viral products we typically cover on this show. The skateboard doesn't belong to any single company or any single brand.

[Nick Martell]

The skateboard transcends trademark.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It evolved thanks to many different innovators. And because there's no one inventor that we can point to. It's hard to say when the very.

[Nick Martell]

First skateboard appeared, but skateboarding in the modern sense started in Southern California in the 1960s thanks to another adrenaline pumping subculture. Surfing.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It was a 30 something lifeguard in Santa Monica who first harnessed this surfboard to skateboard connection. Little did he know it would ultimately become an Olympic sport.

[Nick Martell]

Skateboarding's real impact isn't in the number of units sold. It's really measured in culture.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Just look at the lifestyle and entertainment brands skateboarding has launched. From vans to supreme and the billion.

[Nick Martell]

Dollar video game series starring the physics defying birdman Tony Hawk.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

We'll share how a band of misfits called the Bones Brigade took the sport.

[Nick Martell]

Viral thanks to a common household appliance.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Along the way, you'll learn about the five forces of how the best thing.

[Nick Martell]

To ever happen to the skateboard might have been when it got banned.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So strap on those wrist guards and get ready to nail the nose grind. Here's why the skateboard is the best idea yet.

[Nick Martell]

From Wondery and T Boy. I'm Nick Martell.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And I'm Jack Crevici Kramer.

[Nick Martell]

And this is the best idea yet. The untold origin stories of the products.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

You'Re obsessed with and the bold risk takers who made them go viral.

[C]

I got that feeling.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Something familiar but no, we got it coming to you.

[C]

I got that feeling again.

[D]

They changed the game in one move.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's how they broke up. Travis fell in love with the perfect woman. Beautiful understanding, available 24 7. There was just one catch. She wasn't human. Binge all episodes of Flesh and Code early and ad free Right now on Wondery.

[D]

Business wars gives you a front row seat to the biggest moments in business and how they shape our world. From boardroom blow ups to strategies gone wrong, these are the stories behind the headlines. Listen to Business wars on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Ocean waves rise and break, crashing rhythmically onto the shore. Kids laugh as they build sandcastles and wait for the tide to knock them down. Someone's transistor radio blasts the Beach Boys at top volume.

[Nick Martell]

Jack, I am definitely picking up some good vibrations.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Yes you are Nick, because this is Venice Beach, California, summer of 1962. The temperature is high and the SPF is hard to come by, but you will see zinc oxide slathered on the noses of the lifeguard sitting in their towers. And in one of those towers sits 30 year old lifeguard Larry Stevenson.

[Nick Martell]

Now Larry is a beach boy through and through. Blonde hair, built body with a Clint Eastwood squint that comes from staring at the waves all day.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Like most SoCal dudes his age, Larry is an avid surfer. He eventually publishes a magazine about surfing called Surf Guide.

[Nick Martell]

Venice beach is beautiful and sunny all year round, but the surf does not always rage here. You get your fair share of flat days and a lack of sweet swells. Well, it means a boring day on the board.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Good news though. A few local surfers have found a workaround which Larry spies one day from up in his lifeguard station. In the parking lot near the beach, a gaggle of surfers are cruising on asphalt. They stand on crudely cut two by four slabs attached to small wheels underneath.

[Nick Martell]

They're surfing on dry land. Pretty creative way to deal with the low swells out there.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So once Larry finishes his lifeguarding shift, he asks the surfers if he can take a look at these DIY boards up close, the cheap planks of wood are already scuffed and splintering at the edges. They use steel wheels repurposed from old metal roller skates, the clunky kind that strap onto your shoes.

[Nick Martell]

And that's when Larry's mental wheels start spinning. Larry's sees potential in these primitive rollerboards. So he starts thinking, I could make something like this, but better. I could even start a business. Larry's not just a beach boy who publishes a magazine. As a side hustle, Larry is gonna start a company.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So just like Steve Jobs in pursuit of the first personal computer, Larry heads straight to his garage and starts tinkering. He starts playing with different kinds of woods for the deck.

[Nick Martell]

That's the actual board, as in the surface you stand on.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And he starts testing different wheels, settling on a more modern composite plastic known as clay. Larry's garage starts looking like the SoCal version of Santa's workshop.

[Nick Martell]

Our buddy Larry has also got a co founder here too.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

His wife Ellen, who works with Larry to build their first prototypes. They settle on two sizes for their boards. The 29 inch long standard or the 18 inch Malibu.

[Nick Martell]

Both of these boards, they're shaped like surfboards. They got the pointed tip at the front. They're driving home that whole surfing on concrete concept.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Once Larry and Helen get their product lines just right, they make it official, and they launch one of the first commercial skateboard manufacturing companies, Makaha Skateboards.

[Nick Martell]

Makaha, the name of a legendary surf beach over in Hawaii with killer swells.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It goes for $12.95 or $135 in today's money. So it's not cheap, but it's way less than a full size surfboard, which might five times as much.

[Nick Martell]

But of course, what's the use of making a great product if no one actually hears about it? Which means it's time for Larry to put on his marketing hat and take advantage of that side hustle. He started as a lifeguard a few years ago. Surf Guide magazine.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Larry's got his own publishing vertical, so he starts writing and commissioning articles in Surf Guide, all about the so called sidewalk surfing scene. Yes, they really called it that. As you can hear from this clip from American Bandstand.

[Nick Martell]

With this magazine, Larry's not just boosting his own skateboard company. He's really investing in the creation of an entire new industry here.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

He wants skateboarding to be more than just a cute fad for surfers. When the waves are flat, he sees skateboarding as something that can thrive even miles from the nearest beach. Maybe he thinks that it will one day even rival surfing in scale.

[Nick Martell]

So in the fall of 1963, Makaha makes a move to legitimize this new activity. They sponsor the first ever pro skateboarding team and the first ever official skateboarding competition down in lovely Hermosa Beach, California.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The competition is pretty chill. It's more of a skills exhibition, to be honest. Everyone has a great time and of course, the whole thing gets written up in Surf Guide.

[Nick Martell]

It really doesn't matter who wins the contest because the real winner is Larry.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Well, Larry and skateboarding as a whole.

[Nick Martell]

True, true, true.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Because this competition functions to surface local talent, and that's key. Because every sport from football to fishing relies on star talent to sustain its popularity. The champion athletes to rally around. And skateboarding is about to get a very surprising champion. Santa Monica isn't the only beach town where skateboarding is taking off. Turn south on the 405 and drive for two and a half hours and you'll find yourself in Point Loma, San Diego. Home of a self described rowdy surfer girl named Patty McGee.

[Nick Martell]

Patty is 19 years old with platinum blonde hair sprayed and quaffed to silky perfection. But unlike her bobby pins, Patty has a hard time staying still. You see, she's been surfing with the guys since she was 13 years old.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It was Patty's brother who built her first skateboard, yanking the wheels off her skates and sticking them on a deck he made in the wood shop. Patty embraces this board immediately. She even teaches herself to do a full handstand right on the board as the board is moving.

[Nick Martell]

I mean, I once held a handstand for four seconds, Jack in a yoga class.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Patty is fearless. At the Orange County Fair, she has a friend drag her around on her skateboard with a motorcycle. Driving 47 mph, Patty sets a new speed record. Without pads, without a helmet. Nick, she wasn't even wearing shoes.

[Nick Martell]

Patty said this stunt involved, quote, no helmet, no pads, no shoes, and no brains.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Patty's fame increases in December 1964 when she wins the Women's Open at that first annual National Skateboard Championships in Santa Monica. She sees this win as a great springboard for a professional skateboarding career. So she gets herself some 8 by 10 glossy photos and takes them to Hobie. Hobie invented the Hobie cat, that sailboat that you see still today wherever there's water and wind. But the renowned surfing and water sports company sees the rise of skateboarding as A chance to expand their activities from water onto dry land.

[Nick Martell]

It is simple, but it is strategic. Double the number of surfaces you can surf on, double the business.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So Patty shows up at the Hobie shop just as its founder and namesake, Hobart Alter, is dashing out the door. She waves old Hobie down and throws her photos at him. I'm the women's national skateboard champion, and I want to be on your team.

[Nick Martell]

Hobie does already have a pro skateboarding team, and they're all guys. So Hobie looks at Patty, and he asks, can you babysit?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Incredibly, Patty does not kick Hobie right in the wetsuit. After this offer, she's thinking, this guy's probably still her best chance to go pro. And eventually, Hobie does hire her to do safety demonstrations at toy and department stores around the U.S. and now, safety.

[Nick Martell]

Demonstrator isn't quite the same prestige as being on the pro skateboarding team, but it is getting paid to skate. When you're starting out, you take what you can get. So Patty travels all around the country and is showing off what skateboards can do.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Call her the ambassador. Ambassador of the board.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Preaching the gospel of the grind.

[Nick Martell]

I like where you're going.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

In May of 1965, Patty lands the equivalent of a billion views on Tick Tock. She gets the COVID of Life magazine.

[Nick Martell]

She's in a red sweatshirt, white pants, doing what else? Her legendary handstand inversion on a moving skateboard.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This cover of Life magazine kicks off a firestorm of attention for Patty. She performs with Dick Clark and goes on the Tonight show with Johnny Carson.

[Nick Martell]

Patty becomes skateboarding's first national star. Here she is on a 1965 daytime talk show doing her usual demo. First thing I'm doing is a kick turn.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

She's doing this in bare feet, by the way.

[Nick Martell]

Wait, Jack, roll that clip back a little bit more. The show's host is actually reading the headline from that Life article that we just mentioned.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It says, the craze and menace of skateboards. The craze and menace of skateboards. Turns out the Life article ain't exactly a puff piece.

[Nick Martell]

Strap on that helmet. Because skateboarding is in for its very first backlash.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

By mid-1965. Between Patty McGee's TV spots, live demos, and Life magazine covers, skateboarding's newfound exposure is massively boosting sales, not just for Hobie, but across the industry.

[Nick Martell]

Makaha, Larry Stevenson's company down in Los Angeles, is manufacturing up to 2,000 boards a day. They're approaching $4 million in sales.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Not bad for a former Lifeguard. But this increase in popularity also leads to an unfortunate side effect. Injuries.

[Nick Martell]

Ouch.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

If you've ever sat in the ER with a shattered wrist from attempting a rail grind, you already know that skateboarding can be hazardous to your bone structure.

[Nick Martell]

To paraphrase every toy commercial we've ever seen, not mom approved.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Especially since 1960, skateboards look pretty primitive next to today's models. The clay wheels don't really grip the.

[Nick Martell]

Road, and it was just too easy to wipe out at high speeds.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It was also easy at the time to slip off the top of these wooden boards. Hence why Patty liked to skate barefoot. You gotta grip these boards with your toes.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, and then there's that question of where to skateboard. Right? Like in 1965, the number of skate parks in the the United States is.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's one. There's one skate park. Yeah. Tucson, Arizona. And aside from this one park, skaters are mostly in the road, skateboarding while.

[Nick Martell]

Dodging cars or on the sidewalk dodging pedestrians. Either way, collisions are going to happen. And even if there's no collision, that old lady is not happy that her walk to the laundromat has new high speed traffic on the sidewalk.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It isn't just the tax paying public going anti skateboard authority figures weigh in too. The California Medical association puts out a special bulletin calling skateboarding, quote, a medical menace.

[Nick Martell]

There's that menace word.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That public bulletin is the modern day business equivalent of getting review bombed on Yelp and Jack.

[Nick Martell]

The local stores are calling them a business menace too. Worried that 11 year olds cruising the asphalt like land sharks are going to scare off potential customers.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And look, some concerns about skateboarding's risks are pretty justified. But some of the backlash you can chalk up to adults overreacting to the latest teen trends.

[Nick Martell]

Basically, anytime a product goes Viral among the 18 and undercrowd, adults get critical and then they get controlling. We've seen this before. Video games, Pokemon cards, TikTok, you name it. Parents start worrying about it.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

They're experiencing a real Clint Eastwood get off my lawn moment.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, they are.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But it actually gets even worse.

[Nick Martell]

Local police chiefs, they start warning stores not to even carry skateboards. And by mid-1965, 20American cities have prohibited skateboards altogether. If you carry skateboards in your store, that is an illicit product.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But for skateboard entrepreneur Larry Stevenson, this culminates one shocking week in November. One day he's getting so many orders for new skateboards that people are leaving order sheets at his home. And the next day he's getting cancellations by the tens of thousands.

[Nick Martell]

And in one single week, most of his business dries up. Makaha wraps up 1965 with tons of unsold inventory and massive debt. The company survives, but barely.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

No joke. Larry has to go back to lifeguarding. And Patty McGee, she taps out of the skateboarding scene.

[Nick Martell]

By 1967, skateboarding has officially gone through its first boom and bust.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Don't count this scrappy sport out yet. Larry's got another trick up his sleeve to save his beloved sidewalk surfing.

[Nick Martell]

And he's not the only one. Today's show is brought to you by Amazon Small business.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Nick and I are obsessed with this hot, crispy chili oil called Boone.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, it's great.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Spicy, crunchy, goes on everything. Pasta, pizza, even paella. Total game changer for my fridge.

[Nick Martell]

Okay, but yetis, here's what's wild. This incredible chili oil is actually from a small company in Los Angeles. And when I ran out recently, I was amazed I could get it delivered the very next day. Because this small business chili oil, it's on Amazon.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And that's part of a bigger story. Did you know more than 60% of sales in Amazon store are from independent sellers, most of which are small and medium sized businesses. That means your next go to sauce, soap or skincare routine might come from a local small business, not a big corporation.

[Nick Martell]

Here's the thing, besties. Most small businesses want to focus on what they do best. Making amazing products. But handling the storing the packing, the delivery, that's the tricky part. And that is where Amazon steps in.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

By handling fulfillment and shipping logistics, Amazon helps small businesses get their products out into the world fast.

[Nick Martell]

It's a partnership that goes together like, well, Boone chili oil and just about everything. So the next time you're shopping, think small. Check out Amazon.com supportsmall.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Nick, when we left off the skateboard boom, had just gone skateboard bust. Ever hear of pet rocks? Pogo sticks doing the twist? All mid century fads that wore out their welcome after a few years.

[Nick Martell]

Trends take root, but fads flame out.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But Larry Stevenson, former lifeguard, founder of the trailblazing skateboard company Makaha, isn't gonna let it go that easily. In 1969, just as things looked their bleakest, Larry comes up with an idea that will revolutionize skateboarding again. Call it a minivation. With max effects, Larry invents the kicktail.

[Nick Martell]

Behold, the kicktail. This is where the back of the skateboard wings up kind of like a ski slope.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And it's crucial because you use a kicktail like a lever. To easily stop or change direction. It lets you avoid obstacles like oncoming cars or grandma trying to carry her laundry. But in addition to making boards safer to ride, the kicktail also makes riding more fun and dynamic. Because the added maneuverability leads to some legendary tricks.

[Nick Martell]

Like the ollie, when you stomp on the tail while jumping up, Making the board pop into the air with you. Or the kickflip, an ollie where the board spins around lengthwise in the air under your feet. Or the 360 flip, a kickflip that also rotates the board 360 degrees a full circle.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

These specific stunts all come later, by the way. But none of them would have been possible without Larry's elegant invention, the kicktail. This innovation revitalizes the entire sport. The ability to steer around grandma mitigates the public safety issue.

[Nick Martell]

And the ability to jump curves and spin in circles mitigates the potential boredom issue. Skateboards suddenly become a canvas that you can pour your creativity into.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Once people realize skateboarding isn't dead after all, Other innovations start popping up.

[Nick Martell]

In 1973, a startup called Cadillac wheels rolls out their signature product, Sturdy, smooth polyurethane wheels, just for skateboards.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

These so called precision wheels, they grip the road better. They withstand wear and tear better. Even when skaters practice a thousand curb jumps in a row.

[Nick Martell]

And then, Jack, There's a innovation that came from seemingly everywhere.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Grip tape. We mentioned that most boards were slippery to stand on, remember? Hence your barefoot skaters like Patty McGee.

[Nick Martell]

But then somebody or several somebodies tried resurfacing their decks with a sandpapery top layer. And this provides a crucial extra bit of friction to do any of the tricks.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That sandpaper surface might tear up tender bare feet. Sorry, Patty, but it also helps you tear up the sidewalk.

[Nick Martell]

Metaphorically. The effect of all these innovations is that skateboarding enters a more modern era and a modern crew is going to represent it. Jack, I think it's time for us to to meet the godfather of freestyle.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's new year's day in Gainesville, Florida. 1977. 10 year old Rodney Mullen is waiting for dad to finish his drink. An argument has been hanging over father and son for weeks. Rodney desperately wants a skateboard, but his dad thinks they're for bums. And that's pretty much where things stand.

[Nick Martell]

Rodney, he's got a mop of light brown hair, round cheeks and narrow eyes. He's also so pigeon toed, he has to sleep in corrective boots. Rodney's kind of a misfit.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Rodney's teachers suspect he may have special Needs, but no one can figure out what they are. But things start looking up when his sister's surfing buddy shows him a skateboard for the very first time.

[Nick Martell]

And here's the interesting, actually funny problem, Jack. Rodney's dad is a dentist. So when kids bust their front teeth skateboarding, Dr. Mullen is the one to treat them.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Just like that California Health bulletin. Dad thinks skateboarding is a menace, a bigger threat to public health than the cavity. Which is why what happens next is so incredible. Rodney's father switches the last bit of ice in his glass and sighs. Okay, Rodney can get a skateboard, but on one condition.

[Nick Martell]

Rodney has to promise to protect himself. Full pads, a helmet, and throw on Dad's big leather work gloves while you're at it. Deal.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Rodney practically floats his way to the skate shop. He cannot wait to get started.

[Nick Martell]

And for the next few years, his dad prays Rodney will get sick of skateboarding and take up tennis or something. But you know what doesn't happen?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Nope. Instead, Rodney practices compulsively. His big sis drives him after school to Gainesville's brand new skate park. And off he goes in full pads, just like he promised his dad.

[Nick Martell]

When Rodney skates, he looks more like a Toronto Maple Leafs goalie than a Thrasher. But even though he's wearing more equipment than an astronaut, Rodney keeps at it. And in just nine months, he scores his first official sponsor. The very shop that sold him his very first board.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Having a sponsor means getting to enter competitions, and Rodney starts winning every contest he enters.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, it looks like he has special needs after all. The need to shred.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

In 1980, Rodney enters a contest in San Diego while his family is vacationing there. And he dominates that competition, beating the reigning world freestyle champ at just 13 years old. This catches the eye of an ex skater and entrepreneur named Stacy Peralta. And Stacy is about to change Rodney Mullen's life, and with it, the entire skateboard industry.

[Nick Martell]

The Bones Brigade.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It sounds like an old timey pirate crew led by Captain Hook.

[Nick Martell]

Which makes sense, Jack, because every member kind of looks like a lost boy.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But in fact, the Bones Brigade is a competitive skateboard team sponsored by a Santa Barbara skate brand called Powell Peralta.

[Nick Martell]

That's Powell, as in George Powell and Stacy Peralta, a former pro skater with a rebellious streak.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Pal, Peralta's team is the total opposite of the clean cut Patty McGee doing handstands and Macy's. The Bones kids look more like they'd be chased out of the department store by mall cops.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, you See, by the early 1980s, skateboarding has gone through several boom and bust cycles. It got banned in the 1960s, and it heated up again in the late 70s thanks to all those design innovations like the precision wheels and the kicktail.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But by 1981, business has cooled again as a new generation of parents starts worrying about broken bones and dentist bills. Such an ebb and flow in popularity might have relegated skateboarding to fad status.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, like the Macarena.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But underneath each market fluctuation, skateboarding has taken root in the underground scene.

[Nick Martell]

Exactly. Even when casual fans abandon skateboards, the sport still flourishes within its small niche community. Skateboarding is dipping in and out of mainstream acceptance, but crucially, it is holding onto its hardcore early adopters, the misfits. Kids like Rodney Mullen and the Bones Brigade.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Powell Peralta recruits Rodney for their pro team before his 14th birthday. Rodney is great at all types of skating, but he proves especially adept at freestyle, meaning tricks you can do on bare pavement, no ramps or rails required.

[Nick Martell]

Remember the kickflip, where the board spins in the air under your feet like a rotisserie chicken?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Epic move.

[Nick Martell]

Rodney invented it.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That kickflip relies on another technique called the flat ground ollie, where you get air by popping your board up from stationary position. And guess what? Rodney invented that too.

[Nick Martell]

He also invented the 360 flip, the finger flip, the pogo, and so many other tricks. He's now considered the godfather of freestyle.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

He's da Vinci of Debord.

[Nick Martell]

But Jack, that's just one discipline of his.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

There's also street style, which uses curbs, rails and obstacles you'd find in an urban environment. And then there's vert, the style that involves a two sided ramp called a half pipe or huge paved holes in the ground called bowls. Both have steep sides that go up vertically, giving the skater momentum to catch air.

[Nick Martell]

To master this new form of skating, the vert, Stacy Peralta is going to have to recruit a very special young skater to the Bones Brigade.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Nickname Birdman. Government name Hawk.

[Nick Martell]

Tony Hawk.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Picture yourself in an American living room in 1984. Lazy boy in the corner, Lego is spilled across the floor. And at the front of the room is a big glassy color TV wrapped in faux wood paneling, propped up on a heavy stand. See that, Nick?

[Nick Martell]

Yeah.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Just below the TV itself, it's a brand new shiny silver device called a VCR jack.

[Nick Martell]

You pop in a tape, the one with the black label, and it reads the Bones Brigade video show.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This is an amateur film shot by Stacey's Peralta to showcase the scrappy skills of his teen skateboarding army. Kickflips, rail grinds, aerial spins, ollies. If it's awesome or death defying, it goes on this tape.

[Nick Martell]

The skateboarding legends on this tape are the Mount Rushmore of the sport. You got Lance Mountain, Steve Caballero, Steve Stedham, Rodney Mullen. But before any of their names are known to anybody.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And then, at minute 14, a skinny blond kid enters the frame in a bright red helmet. He wears a yellow T shirt with the bones logo, a skeleton that looks like it's bursting out of the kid's back. It's the 15 year old skateboarding phenom from San Diego, Tony Hawk.

[Nick Martell]

Like Rodney, Tony got recruited to the Bones Brigade before he could drive. But he's been skating in SoCal since age 9 and dusting the competition competition since age 11.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

In the video, Tony is at a vert contest with fans surrounding one of those big concrete bowls we told you about. Tony skates up to the edge and then plunges in, gaining speed until he flies up the wall on the far side. His board keeps going up and up and up, selling five feet into the air until he's over some of the kids heads.

[Nick Martell]

No disrespect to the other skaters on this video, but Birdman catching Air is the most most dazzling part of the Bones Brigade video show. It just looks awesome.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It does look awesome.

[Nick Martell]

But let's talk about this scrappy film shot on a camcorder. It is such a strategic business move.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Stacy Peralta is leveraging the 1984 VCR craze. As we've mentioned, skateboarding is a niche business prone to es and flows. And the early 80s are an ebb, pal. Peralta is averaging sales of only 500 boards a month. At roughly $50 a board, that's only $250,000 in annualized revenue.

[Nick Martell]

At one point, Tony Hawk literally receives a royalty check for 85 cents. You can't buy a Big Mac with that payday, jack. But this all changes when the Bones Brigade video show hits the scene on a VHS tape.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Its loose, low budget style matches the DIY spirit skateboard has cultivated in the underground. This first tape sells 30,000 copies, way more than Stacy expected. So they make more copies and those sell even better.

[Nick Martell]

And as more and more homes get VCR players, more and more kids get into the Bones Brigade. Those who don't have a vcr, they beg their parents to head over to Circuit City and snag one. This creates a whole flywheel of interest. And by the mid-1980s, driven by physical video tapes, skateboarding is having its biggest viral moment yet.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The Bones Brigade crew become international stars, cars touring the world and cashing monthly $20,000 royalty checks at its 1987 peak. Pal Peralta does $27 million in annual sales and 19 year old Tony Hawk is clearing 150 grand a year personally.

[Nick Martell]

Across the country, kids are doodling Bones Brigade logos on their notebooks without even knowing why, which reveals a truly unique accomplishment here of skateboarding. Skate culture is pulling off a rare marketing mix that so many brands long for.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's rebellious and it's popular, countercultural, yet culturally embraced.

[Nick Martell]

I mean, typically you can't be both. And yet the skateboard has pulled it off. Plus, because art imitates life, fictional characters are boosting the skateboard business too.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Marty McFly rides a skateboard in Back.

[Nick Martell]

To the Future and a hoverboard in the sequel.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Meanwhile, Bart Simpson sails on his skateboard through the opening credits of the Simpsons when it debuts in 1989. But just like an airborne vert skater, the 80s skateboard craze eventually settles back down to earth. The Bones Brigade breaks up by 1991. Casual fans once again move on after this high watermark, skateboards recede back to counterculture niche product.

[Nick Martell]

Boom. Bust the sequel. That is, until the letter X gets involved.

[C]

It's your man, Nick Cannon and I'm here to bring you my new podcast, Nick Cannon at Night. I've heard y' all been needing some advice in the love department, so who better to help than yours truly? Nah, I'm serious. Every week I'm bringing out some of my celebrity friends and the best experts in the business to answer your most intimate relationship questions. Having problems with your man? We got you catching feelings for your sneaky link. Let's make sure it's the real deal first. Ready to bring toys into the bedroom? Let's talk about it. Consider this a non judgment zone to ask your questions when it comes to sex and modern dating in relationships, friendships, situationships and everything in between, it's gonna be sexy, freaky, messy. And you know what? You'll just have to watch the show. So don't be shy, join the conversation and head over to you YouTube to watch Nick Cannon at Night or subscribe on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast. Want to watch episodes early and ad free? Join Wondery plus right now.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Nick, are you ready to party like it's 1999?

[Nick Martell]

One sec Jack. Let me grab my Mountain Dew. My Skechers and my lava lamp.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So is everyone at the fifth annual X Games in San Francisco. In the next four sunny summer days, over a quarter million people will gather in person to watch feats of bravery, strength and sheer badassery in a massive showcase of what ESPN is calling extreme sports. Everything from snowboarding to rollerblading to motocross.

[Nick Martell]

And yes, Jack did just say snowboarding in San Francisco in June because the Hex X Games actually created a 100 foot high jump covered in powdery man made snow that does not melt.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Skateboarding has been a staple of the X Games since their founding in 1995. But every year since, the viewership has gotten bigger. Not just in the stands, but in living rooms across the world. So on June 27, there are millions of people watching as Tony Hawk skids to his knees again and again as he fails to nail his final trick in the vert category, an unprecedented 900 degree aerial spin.

[Nick Martell]

The idea is that Tony is going to shoot up the ramp on his board, hold his board under him as he spins around two and a half rotations in the air, and then land on the very same board to skate down the other side.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Nobody has ever done that successfully. Each time Tony tries the trick, he nails the 900 degree spin. Every time, it's the landing that's not really working. Every single time he sinks back to the earth, the board skitters away and Tony slides behind on his knee pads.

[Nick Martell]

Tony is no skinny life kid anymore. He's 31. So those kneecap landings, they hit different now.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Everyone can feel his pain and feel his fatigue as they're watching it on the screen. Tony's body is getting more and more fatigued. He's pouring sweat. His face is twisted in frustration. The crowd is pulling for him, but we're all kind of expecting he's going to have to walk away and quit at some point.

[Nick Martell]

The 900, it's like Narnia. You have to believe in it to be true.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Tony is now past his allotted time, but the officials let him keep on trying.

[Nick Martell]

Some of his rivals grumble as he refuses to leave the vert. But other competitors start cheering him on, banging their boards and support as he scrambles back up for his 9 9th attempt for his 10th attempt.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Here he goes for number 11.

[Nick Martell]

Are you kidding me? Yeah, look at this. Tony Hawk.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Everybody take it.

[Nick Martell]

This is the best day of my life.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Success at last. There we go. Tony's epic 900 becomes the viral moment of the X Games. And that's a big deal because these Games have a much wider reach than any mere skateboarding contest.

[Nick Martell]

ESPN is making a strategic move with these X Games by packaging different niche sports into a sort of extreme Olympics. They're bundling the customer subgroups, like a cable and Internet package, into one particular program.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Motocross, bungee jumping, sky surfing. Each are sports with a relatively small fan base. A bundle them together, you can market it to all the fans at once. 55 million people watch those 1999 X games on TV. That's a lot of niches. The X Games helps break the cycle of skateboarding's fluctuating popularity and makes the case for its global appeal.

[Nick Martell]

In fact, skateboarding is about to go so global, it ends up on an even bigger world stage. Next stop, the Olympics.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Okay, as we said earlier, this episode is unique for us. It's the first time we've done a product that no single brand owns. Which means its modern legacy touches all kinds of interesting sectors.

[Nick Martell]

Ironically, Jack, skateboarding's biggest economic impact isn't in the boards.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's in the spin off culture around skateboarding. That's where the real money was built.

[Nick Martell]

So here is a speed round of skateboarding's impact in business and in culture.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

First, let's talk fashion. Skateboarding has inspired hundreds of labels, thousands of designers, and millions of outfits that make your mom go, you're wearing that.

[Nick Martell]

To your cousin Marla's bar mitzvah. The leader of this pack would probably be the sneaker brand vans.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Over 75 million pairs of vans are sold each year.

[Nick Martell]

What about Supreme?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That label grew from a tiny New York City skate shop to a billion dollar luxury streetwear brand. Oh, but we're not done, Nick.

[Nick Martell]

No, we're not.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

What about skateboarding and video games?

[Nick Martell]

Great call, Jack, because it turns out video games are actually the biggest part of the entire skateboard industry. Bigger than the actual boards themselves.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Specifically, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater video game series. The first version was launched by Activision back in fall of 1999, three months after Tony landed that 900 at the X Games.

[Nick Martell]

Nailed the timing and the move.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Twenty years later, worldwide sales of this one video game have reached $1.4 billion. And we're still counting because people are still buying.

[Nick Martell]

Not every kid who plays pro skater runs out to buy their first board. But every time a new version releases, it introduces a fresh set of gamers to the sport, Some of whom move further down the country customer funnel and eventually become skateboarders themselves.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Right now, about 85 million people skateboard worldwide, but the biggest skating scenes Outside the US are in Brazil, Australia and Japan. For proof that skateboarding has officially made the big time, look no further than the 2020 Tokyo Olympics, which technically took.

[Nick Martell]

Place in 2021 because of COVID skateboarding's.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Olympic debut featured competitors from all over the world.

[Nick Martell]

Skateboarding may have started as a lo fi hobby side hustle in Southern California's parking lots and empty swimming pools, but today skateboarding has achieved cultural significance and full on sports legitimacy.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

We would argue that skateboarding has traveled further than any other sport in America. Not as one genius's invention, but as a crowdsourced success.

[Nick Martell]

And unlike Pet Rock's pogo sticks or Jack's obsession with the twist, skateboarding ain't going anywhere.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Now that you've heard the story of the skateboard, what's your takeaway?

[Nick Martell]

Respect the five forces of business. It sounds like a scripted superhero show for cnbc, but the five forces of business are a theory from Harvard Business School professor Michael Porter. Porter teaches you that there are five industry forces that determine profit potential. And Jack, I know you know what these five are.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Competitive rivalry, supplier power, buyer power, threat of substitution and threat of new entry.

[Nick Martell]

Don't worry, besties, there won't be a quiz at the end of the pod. But for skateboarding, the competitive rivalry factor has always been high because the skateboard itself was unpatentable. So profits in selling skateboards alone were never going to be huge.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

If one guy makes a great skateboard, another guy can make the same skateboard for a dollar less.

[Nick Martell]

But Jack, skateboarding media, way less competition and way more supplier power, which is.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Another of Porter's five forces.

[Nick Martell]

So when it comes to media, the key suppliers turned out to be espn.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Which produced the X Games, and Tony Hawk, who was the face of the video game.

[Nick Martell]

The X Games were a huge money maker for Disney. Their profit puppy, which didn't face any competition until 25 years later when the Olympics started. Including skateboarding.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And Tony Hawk's pro skater pretty much had a lock on skateboarding video games. Because there's only one Tony Hawk.

[Nick Martell]

Exactly. The biggest moneymaker in skateboarding. It isn't actually the skateboard, it's the media spinoffs. So besties, listen to Professor Porter and respect those five forces of business which explain the skateboard's profit potential. But Jack, what about you? Hop on the board, what's your takeaway?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The best thing that happened to the skateboard is that it got banned. Hear me out. What made skateboarding so appealing to surfers and skate punks was that it was so Annoying to parents and small business owners. This led to the latter group calling it a menace. But skateboarding endures because it's still considered an act of rebellion. And skater communities still thrive because rebellion never goes out of style.

[Nick Martell]

No, it don't.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So again, the best thing that ever happened to the skateboard was it getting banned by the law. All right, Nick, before we get into the sunset, it's time for our favorite part of the show, the best facts yet.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, the hero stats, the facts and the surprises we discovered in our research. But we just couldn't fit into the story. Jack, why don't you kick us off over there?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

After talking about the rise of skate parks, we got curious. What US City has the most skate parks per capita. Surprisingly, the winner is not in California. It's Laredo, Texas, with three and a half skate parks per 100,000 residents.

[Nick Martell]

Congratulations, Laredo. You're the new skateboard capital.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And finally, let's do a quick roundup of our story's featured players. Larry Stevenson, founder of Makaha Skateboards, passed away in 2012. He's remembered as a founding father of the sport.

[Nick Martell]

Patty McGee, the original skate Betty.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That's a cool female skater.

[Nick Martell]

Well, she passed away last year at age 79. Her daughter Hayley became a skate batty, too.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Rodney Mullen is definitely still with us. In addition to skateboarding, he found a second career as a speaker and advisor. He literally has his own TED Talk.

[Nick Martell]

And the Birdman himself, Tony Hawk, is still shredding at the age of 57. His Birdhouse skateboard company sells boards and gear, is partnered with Vans, and has supported over 600 skate parks around the country via the Birdhouse Foundation.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

You can check out his latest moves on his TikTok at Tony Hawk.

[Nick Martell]

Okay, Jack, how come he did not call it Hawk Talk?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Wow. Huge mess. And that yetis is why the skateboard is the best idea yet.

[Nick Martell]

Coming up on the next episode of the Best Idea Yet. Turn up the bass and fill up your cup, because we're talking about hip hop's favorite cognac, Hennessy.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And don't forget to rate and review the show right now. Give us five stars. That's how we grow. And if you leave us a review, we might cover the episode that you suggest in the future.

[Nick Martell]

And if we left out your favorite legendary skate punk, drop their name in the comments.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Follow the Best Idea yet on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of the Best Idea yet early and ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[Nick Martell]

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey the best idea yet is a production of Wondery hosted by me, Nick Martell.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And me Jack Crevici Kramer. Our senior producers are Matt Beagle and Chris Gautier.

[Nick Martell]

Peter Arcuni is our additional senior producer.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Our senior Managing producer is Nick Ryan and Taylor Sniffin is our managing producer.

[Nick Martell]

Our producer and researcher is H. Conley.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This episode was written and produced by Katie Clark Gretchen.

[Nick Martell]

We use many sources in our research, including the Bones Brigade, an autobiography produced by Stacy Peralta and Vance, featuring interviews with Rodney Mullen and Tony Hawk, among.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Many Others and Patty McGee, an interview with Steve Olson for Juice Magazine Sound design and mixing by CJ Drummler fact checking by Brian Pognan Music supervision by Scott Velazquez and Jolina Garcia for Freeson Sync.

[Nick Martell]

Our theme song is Got that Feeling Again by Blackalac. Executive producers for Nick and Jack Studios.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Are me, Nick Martell and me, Jack Revici Kramer.

[Nick Martell]

Executive producers for Wondery are Jenny Lauer Beckman, Aaron o' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.

[D]

Before the Internet ruled our lives, AOL brought America Online with email and Instant messenger. By 2000, AOL was so powerful, powerful it bought media giant Time Warner. This was a deal that was supposed to bring us into the future, revolutionize media. But instead it became one of the messiest corporate disasters in history. So what went wrong? The dot com crash? Culture clashes? Or something deeper? Business wars gives you a front row seat to the biggest moments in business and how they shape our world. Because when your flight perks disappear, your favorite restaurant chain goes bankrupt, or new tech threatens to reshape everything overnight, you can bet there's a deeper story behind the headlines. Make sure to follow Business wars on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast, and you can binge all episodes of Business the AOL Time Warner Disaster early and ad free right now on Wondery.