⌚ Swatch: The $40 Watch that Saved Switerzland | 12

Summary

Episode Summary: Swatch: The $40 Watch that Saved Switzerland | Episode 12

Released on December 31, 2024, by Wondery’s "The Best Idea Yet," hosted by Nick Martell and Jack Crivici-Kramer.

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Introduction to Swatch and the Swiss Watch Crisis

In this compelling episode of The Best Idea Yet, Nick Martell and Jack Crivici-Kramer delve into the transformative journey of Swatch, the iconic $40 watch that not only revolutionized the watch industry but also salvaged Switzerland's prestigious watchmaking legacy.

The Quartz Crisis: A Threat to Swiss Dominance [07:59 - 10:22]

The episode begins by setting the stage in the late 1970s and early 1980s, a period marked by the so-called "Quartz Crisis." Swiss watchmakers, long revered for their mechanical precision and craftsmanship, faced unprecedented challenges as Japanese brands like Seiko introduced quartz watches. These watches were not only more accurate but also significantly cheaper and easier to produce, leveraging the cheap and reliable quartz crystals. Seiko's groundbreaking release of the Astron, the world's first battery-powered quartz watch, sent shockwaves through the traditional Swiss watch industry, causing a drastic decline in market share—from holding nearly 50% globally to a mere third within a decade.

Nicholas Hayek: The Visionary Leader [05:22 - 06:55]

Enter Nicholas Hayek Sr., a dynamic business consultant with a flair for bold strategies. Hayek, born in Beirut to a Lebanese mother and an American father, had established himself in Switzerland, building his consulting firm, Hayek Engineering, into a billion-dollar enterprise. His larger-than-life personality and unwavering confidence positioned him as the ideal leader to confront the Swiss watch industry's crisis.

Strategic Merger and Formation of SMH [15:17 - 16:11]

Faced with declining sales and the looming threat of liquidation, Hayek orchestrated a major consolidation of Switzerland's two largest watchmaking entities: ASWAG and SSIH. This merger birthed the Swiss Society of Microelectronics and Watchmaking (SMH), later known as the Swatch Group. Under Hayek's leadership, SMH became the largest watch company globally, with annual revenues skyrocketing to around $10 billion. Hayek's strategic vision was clear: diversify the product range to capture both the high-end luxury market and the emerging affordable segment dominated by quartz watches.

Innovating the Swatch: From Basic to Bold [17:19 - 24:21]

To address the crisis, Hayek focused on two main strategies:

1. Elevating Luxury Brands: Hayek doubled the prices of high-end brands like Omega and Longines, transforming them into aspirational luxury products. This repositioning elevated Rolex from being perceived as a "Volvo of watches" to the "Lamborghini" of timepieces.

2. Creating Affordability with Style: Concurrently, Hayek aimed to reclaim the low-end market by introducing an affordable Swiss quartz watch. Led by Dr. Ernst Tomka, a scientist turned watch executive, the team developed the Vulgaris—a functional yet aesthetically plain quartz watch. Recognizing the need for greater appeal, marketing consultant Franz Sprecher coalesced the watch into a fashion accessory rather than a mere timekeeping device, emphasizing the concept of "wardrobing" where consumers would purchase multiple colorful and stylish watches to match different outfits.

Marketing Brilliance: Limited Editions and Perpetual Events [23:34 - 32:29]

Franz Sprecher played a pivotal role in Swatch’s marketing strategy. He named the watch "Swatch," a blend of "Swiss" and "watch," and advocated for positioning it as a fashion accessory. This approach encouraged consumers to view Swatch as an essential part of their wardrobe, akin to earrings or ties.

Swatch further innovated by introducing limited edition designs and collaborating with pop artists like Keith Heron and Kiki Picasso. Iconic releases, such as the "Jellyfish" watch designed by Marlisa Schmidt, captured the vibrant 1980s zeitgeist, selling out swiftly and establishing Swatch as a cultural phenomenon. These strategies fostered a dedicated collector base, known as "Swatch dogs," and solidified Swatch's presence in various subcultures, including hip-hop and skateboarding.

Exponential Growth and Cultural Integration [33:06 - 37:04]

Swatch’s ingenious blend of affordability, style, and marketing led to exponential growth. Sales surged from 1 million units in 1983 to over 3.5 million by 1984, and continued to triple by 1986. Swatch not only reclaimed market share but also enhanced the prestige of Swiss watchmaking, turning brands like Rolex into symbols of luxury and success. The Swatch Group’s strategic sponsorships, including the 1996 Atlanta Olympics and collaborations with iconic figures, further entrenched Swatch in global culture.

Adapting to Technological Advancements and Nostalgia [39:09 - 42:39]

Despite the emergence of digital competitors like Fitbit and the tech giant Apple Watch, Swatch demonstrated remarkable resilience. The hosts highlight how Swatch leveraged nostalgia, reintroducing classic designs and collaborating with artists to maintain relevance in a rapidly evolving market. By embracing social media and reviving vintage styles, Swatch ensured its continued appeal across generations.

Conclusion: The Three P’s of Successful Turnaround [43:11 - 44:38]

Jack aptly summarizes Swatch's success with the mantra: "You can have your wedding cake and eat your cupcake too." This metaphor underscores the importance of offering both high-end luxury and affordable products to build broad brand affinity. Nick Martell reinforces this by emphasizing the necessity of addressing the three P’s—People, Product, and Plan—for a successful turnaround. Swatch adeptly transformed its leadership, diversified its product line, and executed a robust marketing strategy, ensuring its survival and dominance.

Notable Quotes:

• [16:11] Jack Crevici Kramer: "You can have your wedding cake and eat your cupcake too."

• [43:23] Nick Martell: "You need all three [People, Product, Plan]. All three P's or else your turnaround, it ain't gonna turn."

Key Takeaways:

1. Leadership and Vision: Effective leadership, as exemplified by Nicholas Hayek, is crucial in navigating industry crises.

2. Product Diversification: Offering a range of products to cater to different market segments can safeguard against competitive threats.

3. Innovative Marketing: Positioning products as fashion accessories and leveraging limited editions can create cultural relevance and consumer loyalty.

4. Adaptability: Embracing technological advancements and nostalgic trends ensures long-term relevance in a dynamic market.

Swatch's story is a testament to how strategic innovation, bold leadership, and adaptive marketing can not only save an industry but also redefine it for future generations.

Transcript

[Nick Martell]

Wondery subscribers can listen to the best idea yet, early and ad free right now.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[Nick Martell]

Wondery. Jack, you know what my therapist told me the other day? There's a fine line between collecting and hoarding.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Yeah.

[Nick Martell]

And I am not on the right side of that line right now, man.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The weird thing is you're kind of asset light. Like, I went to your house once. You had a closet with nothing in it. Unheard of.

[Nick Martell]

That's what you've seen. But Jack, you've seen my child at home. I've got enough Hot Wheels to run a store. I used to collect fortune cookie fortunes. True. I'm working through it. I'm working through it, Jack. But you know, it's better when you collect things that you can actually wear.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Yeah, I got a collection of sunglasses.

[Nick Martell]

Really? That's what you got?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I got a pair for skiing. I got a pair for the beach. I got aviators in case I'm going for like a Top Gun look.

[Nick Martell]

Jack, they all add up to little bits of flair that help us express ourselves.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Yes.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, and by the way, we don't mean flair like Jennifer Aniston's mandatory flair, do we man?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Cuz I'm counting and I only see 15 pieces.

[Nick Martell]

No besties. We mean the little accent notes that you swap in and you swap out to make your day a little bit brighter.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Because accessorizing is personalizing and it drives customer behavior. Nick, when a product is affordable and it comes in multiple colors and multiple styles, people tend to buy more than one of that item. It's true for silk ties, it's true for Lisa Frank stickers, and it's even true for the right wristwatch.

[Nick Martell]

But besties. Did you know that for most of history, watches were not actually in this category unless you were absolutely loaded, you probably just had one watch sitting on your bedside table. The wristwatch was a single purchase product.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It might have even been a classic Rolex, which didn't used to be a high end luxury watch. Before the late 70s, Rolex was less like a Lamborghini, more like a Volvo.

[Nick Martell]

But starting in 1983, the world's relationship with wristwatches would change. And it was all because of a brand new Swiss watch that sold for just 40 bucks and was made mostly out of plastic yetis. Are you ready for the swatch Swatch Em. Ha ha ha. Swatch em.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

All the hands on the swatch. Oh, persistent. And the swatch is water and shotgun.

[Nick Martell]

Be sitting with now when swatch burst onto the scene. It helped define the look of the pop art 80s. It anticipated modern, fast fashion trends without skimping on craftsmanship. And the Swatch helped people start seeing watches through the lens of fashion and culture.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Those celebrity blogs about Kylie Jenner's love for Cartier timepieces, you can thank Swatch for that.

[Nick Martell]

These simple, colorful analog watches, they represented Swiss quality and precision, but at a cost so low people could afford to buy three or four or a dozen of them. And thanks to marketing moves that rival Apple's, sales for the Swatch shot up higher than Mac's from Stranger Things during that running up that hill scene. The Swatch hit so hard that in the 10 years following its debut, it would make the Swatch Group the largest watch company on the planet.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Today, Swatch owns 16 different watch and jewelry brands and their annual revenue is around $10 billion. That is more than Harley Davidson. It's also more than Lululemon, more than Snapchat, and more than Domino's Pizza.

[Nick Martell]

But the journey of Swatch isn't just about the it's also about this unlikely hero who helped save Switzerland's historic watchmaking industry.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Yeah, we said the entire industry. This was a James Bond level rescue operation.

[Nick Martell]

More on 007 in a minute. But it is true. Rolex was actually saved by Swatch, a watch that is 1/100th of the price.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And the key was to introduce the concept of the second watch, or Swatch for short.

[Nick Martell]

Or maybe the S stands for get into that too.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Today's story is Swatch, the first watch ever to go viral and the first watch to save an entire industry.

[Nick Martell]

Stick around to hear why Swatch is the best idea yet from Wondery and T Boy. I'm Nick Martell.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And I'm Jack Crevici Kramer.

[Nick Martell]

And this is the best idea yet. The untold origin stories of the products you're obsessed obsessed with and the boulderous takers who brought them to life.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This episode is sponsored by Abbott. Let's talk about a small thing that can make a big difference if you have diabetes. The Freestyle Libre 3 sensor. It's amazing how the sensor gives you real time glucose readings so you can see the impact of every meal and every activity to make better choices. The Freestyle Libre 3 Plus sensor can help you live life with diabetes on your terms. You can try it free at FreestyleLibre US offer available for people who qualify. Visit MyFreestyle US to see all terms and conditions. Certain exclusions apply for prescription only Safety info found @freestylelibre us.

[Nick Martell]

Yetis we're in a chilly conference room in Zurich, Switzerland. A pitcher of ice water sits untouched on the polished oak table. The mood is quiet and it's tense. Every creak of every chair echoes uncomfortably in the space around the table sit conservative men in conservative suits. They're repping several Swiss banks and across from them, a confident man in tweed with bushy eyebrows and a wry expression sits down. The room is not silent for long.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's the spring of 1982. The man is a business consultant named Nicholas Hayek Sr. He goes by Nick, but since that's also the name of my co host, we'll be using Hayek's last name for this episode. Good call.

[Nick Martell]

I like what you did there, Jack. Well, Hayek was born in 1928 in Beirut to a Lebanese mother and an American father. But he's been in Switzerland for decades now.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

He's earned his Swiss bona fides too. He has impeccable taste in chocolate and cheeses.

[Nick Martell]

But Hayek is also a larger than life guy with a healthy ego and a brash sense of humor. In fact, he says things like, I am the creator of products, kingdoms and empires, and I want to look in the mirror every morning and say, you're great. Can you imagine looking in the mirror and saying that every day to yourself, Jack?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

He's giving Napoleon neck.

[Nick Martell]

But he has earned that confidence, Yetis, because this man, Hayek, he's built his consulting firm, Hayek Engineering, from a one man shop into a billion dollar business.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And now Hayek is acting as chief advisor to the biggest players in the Swiss watch industry. Which is why we're here in this conference room in 1982.

[Nick Martell]

Sitting in this room are representatives from two of Switzerland's top industries. Switzerland has been a clock making hub since the early Renaissance.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And it's been a hub for global financ since the invention of the anonymous Swiss bank account.

[Nick Martell]

But right now we got a problem because these two epic industries are in conflict because the bankers are major shareholders in the watch companies and they want Hayek to help them liquidate. And these aren't just any failing watchmakers, by the way, are they, Jack? Like, who are we talking about here?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

We're talking about the two largest watchmaking companies in Switzerland.

[Nick Martell]

You got aswag, a Swiss German manufacturing conglomerate. And you got ssih, which is a Swiss French manufacturer.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Don't worry, Eddies, that's the last time you'll hear those acronyms. Bottom line, though, the entire Swiss watch industry is in trouble because of something they're calling The Quartz crisis.

[Nick Martell]

The Quartz crisis also sounds like a James Bond movie. But, Jack, let's wind up a little context here for the besties out there.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

You ready for a little geography lesson? Switzerland is an insular country. They're bordered by mountains on all sides of the country. 60% of Switzerland is the Alps.

[Nick Martell]

Picture the Elvish kingdom Rivendell in Lord of the Rings. It's beautiful, it is isolated, and you get around mostly by hiking.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Switzerland's isolation is how they stayed neutral during World War II. While the rest of Europe was cranking out bombs and aircraft, the Swiss focused their resources on their specialty industries, like making watches and banking. But by World War II's end, this little country, with a population of less than 5 million people, claimed nearly half of all watch sales worldwide.

[Nick Martell]

50% market share. Holy Swiss miss. Now, the word Swiss made, they actually came to stand for the peak of precision and of quality. Kind of like Italian leather or French champagne or Turkish delights. And at the time of this Swiss dominance, all watches were mechanical.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That means the movements or the gears inside don't run on electricity, they run on mechanical power. Back then, you had to wind your watch. I don't even know what that means really. But when you did wind your watch, you were essentially charging its battery because a super tiny spring inside turns a balance wheel that moves the watch gears at regular timed intervals. Hence a watch that keeps time.

[Nick Martell]

But in 1969, something happens that changes everything. Japan decides to stick its wrist in the ring. The Japanese brand Seiko figures out a new, cheaper, and arguably cooler way to turn that balance wheel that Jack just described. They use a tiny vibrating quartz crystal powered by a battery. And these crystals, they are cheap to grow.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And yes, you manufacture crystals by growing them. Shout out to my ninth grade science teacher, Dr. Church.

[Nick Martell]

Well, despite being cheaper, here's the other problem. Quartz crystals are more accurate at keeping time than the mechanical movements that the Swiss love. So when Japan Seiko releases the world's first battery powered quartz watch, the Astron, it sends a massive shockwave through the entire watch industry.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Just like the Japanese will disrupt America's car industry with Toyota, Honda, Mazda and Nissan. Seiko watches disrupt Switzerland's most iconic product.

[Nick Martell]

And things just take off from there. Because soon dozens of companies are following suit. And almost none of them are Swiss. All of them are basically Japanese brands like Citizen and Casio, plus a few American brands like Timex. And when one of them figures out how to give their quartz watches a digital display, I mean, forget about it.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

James Bond had been seen in Swiss Rolexes through Sean Connery's entire career. But in 1972's Live and Let Die, Roger Moore's super spy. Where's the Pulsar? The world's first digital watch. And he'll don a Seiko. In 1977, this is the time the Swiss stopped being fans of 007.

[Nick Martell]

Soon, digital watches, they are everywhere, and they're available for a fraction of the price of a good Swiss mechanical classic.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But most Swiss companies do what incumbents tend to do when faced with disruption. They ignore the signs of trouble. They think quartzes are beneath them and best left unmentioned.

[Nick Martell]

Uber? Yeah, just a cab app. It's a. It'll be over in a few years. Jack and I actually call this phenomenon business blinders. It's one thing to not get distracted by the competition. It's another thing to completely ignore a brand new innovation.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And that's what the Swiss were doing. Switzerland's watch crafting artisans were putting on blinders to the quartz revolution that was cooking up in Japan.

[Nick Martell]

That is Jack. Until the Swiss start bleeding sales and those executive C suite cuckoo clocks all start yelling at them.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Like we say, money doesn't talk, it screams.

[Nick Martell]

By the time the Swiss creditor banks seek out Nick Hayek's help to turn around their top export, Switzerland's share of the global watch market has shrunk by about 2/3.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That is such a painful decline. This would be like if Hollywood suddenly lost 2/3 of their share of the global movie business. Or if Iowa suddenly lost their corn industry. For Switzerland, this isn't just an industry threat, it's a cultural threat. And thousands of watchmaking jobs in Switzerland are suddenly at risk.

[Nick Martell]

The banks, they want to cut bait on the entire industry. So they propose shutting down the two biggest watchmaking entities and just selling the brand names they represent to the Japanese. Essentially, they'd be passing the whole watchmaking torch from Switzerland to Japan.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It'll be a fire sale on legacy watch brands like Omega and Longines. And while Rolex wouldn't be a part of that sale, they'd be left to oper in an industry so diminished, it might only be a matter of time before they leave, too.

[Nick Martell]

And so the bankers, they're putting pressure on Hayek in that boardroom. They're telling him to draw up a roadmap for this entire liquidation. But that very idea, it offends his national pride, because this is about Switzerland standing in the world.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Hayek thinks we can't just give up. He writes his report, all right, but it's not about how to sell, it's about how to adapt.

[Nick Martell]

Hayek has got an idea to turn everything around and to make Swiss watches number one once again. The first thing that Hayek does is spearhead a blockbuster study on the state of the Swiss watch industry. It's known as the Hayek Report and it outlines the current size and the current shape of the global wristwatch market. Hayek describes the entire Swiss watch industry as a three layer wedding cake.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The bottom layer is the lower end of watches selling for up to $75 retail. The middle layer is for mid range watches, which is $75 to a few hundred dollars. And the top tier is for watches $400 and up with price tags that can extend into the millions of dollars for a single watch.

[Nick Martell]

We should point out this three tiered market structure. It's not unique to the watch industry. It looks like any market that has both budget and luxury options. In fashion. You would call this like the TEMU layer, the Neiman Marcus layer, and the Christian Dior couture layer.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But Hayek notes that his bottom cake tier represents 9, 10 of the global watch market. And the Swiss share of that bottom layer is zero.

[Nick Martell]

90% of watches sold in the world were under $75 and the Swiss have zero percent of that market. They're not even touching the overwhelming majority of watches sold in the world.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And get this, they only control 3% of the mid range tier. So their entire business depends on the teeny tiny layer at the top of the watches that pair with like a tuxedo and a glass of Dom.

[Nick Martell]

Switzerland's watch industry, it's like Italy's car industry. They dominate the top, like Ferrari and Maserati. But Switzerland can't support an entire country's economy with just the top 1% of watches.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Switzerland needs their Fiat too.

[Nick Martell]

So Hayek, he sets in motion a sweeping merger that will take several years to complete. Those two big Swiss watchmaking entities with the long acronyms we mentioned five minutes ago, the ones that the banks wanted to sell, they'll be reorganized into a single group called the Swiss Society of Microelectronics and Watchmaking.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Its initials are smh. Thanks. Shaking my head, but on francais.

[Nick Martell]

And this new entity, smh, will now be Switzerland's largest watchmaking group, which Nick Hayek will personally oversee. Like Jack and I like to say, when the going gets tough, the tough get merging.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And this is a major consolidation. It's not quite a monopoly that he's creating, but it's close. Hayek brings in a New group of investors who won't demand that he liquidate. They're going to bet their money on the belief that the Swiss watch industry isn't done yet. And they bet on Hayek to fix it.

[Nick Martell]

First thing he does, Hayek doubles the prices on the high end brands he now controls. Doubles the prices. Pause the pot.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

We need to underscore this. He doubles the retail price of all of the high end watch brands owned by smh.

[Nick Martell]

And he does this to define the top tier as an aspirational luxury good. That mid range Omega you got on your Wrist, it's now three grand. The 5K Longines with the hourglass logo. Yeah, it's now a $10,000 watch.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

If you're wondering why watches are so fricking expensive, it's this decision that he made right here. In the 80s.

[Nick Martell]

This is how Rolex's image transforms from a workman's watch to the luxury brand we now know today. It's because Hayek's luxury brands go up in price and Rolex follows suit, also doubling in price.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Rolex doesn't want to get left in the dust or worse seem like a mid tier option. And that is how Rolex goes from the Volvo of watches to the Lamborghini.

[Nick Martell]

But Jack, here's the wild thing. Step number two is to attack the low end and create a Swiss quartz watch to compete with the Japanese brand, Seiko Citizen and all the rest.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And luckily, Hayek doesn't have to start from scratch. He just has to start biting into that big, juicy bottom tier of that watch. Wedding cake.

[Nick Martell]

Now, besties mergers are about way more than acquiring assets. They also include acquiring teams of people. And Nick Hayek, he just acquired an engineering team of brain cells that has spent the past couple of years working on the one thing he needs most, a viable quartz watch competitor.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The team is led by a scientist turned watch executive, Dr. Ernst Tomka.

[Nick Martell]

Now we should point out, Jack, this Tomka, he is like a very serious guy. Before he got into watches, he was actually in cancer research. And just like Hayek, Tomka is passionate about competing with the Japanese.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

In fact, one of his biggest triumphs in the Swiss watch world was leading a team that invented the world's thinnest watch. It was as thin as a nickel and it functioned as a watch. Nickel was less than 2 millimeters deep.

[Nick Martell]

But as it turns out, this super thin watch, it holds the key to the quartz problem. The way they got it so thin was to figure out how to make it with fewer component parts and the fewer parts you need, the lower the manufacturing costs and the better your competitive edge.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

For the first time since the quartz crisis began, Tomka can now see a path to a viable, inexpensive Swiss quartz watch to finally compete with the Japanese.

[Nick Martell]

So here's what Tomka does. He engages his lead engineers, a duo named Elmer Mach and Jacques Mueller, to work on a design. And finally, after a whole year of twisting and screwing and tinkering, they come up with an analog quartz watch that will need just 51 separate components.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And that's huge. For comparison, other Quartz watches need 91 components, almost twice as many as this one they just whipped up.

[Nick Martell]

So they call this brand new innovation the Vulgaris, which is Latin for common, as in a watch for commoners. And if that seems judgy, you are right. These Swiss are being really judgy with this new watch.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The engineers, they're annoyed that they've been reduced to creating plastic products. They feel like Francis Ford Coppola being asked to direct a YouTube short. But still, the Vulgaris might just be their ticket to survival. So they swallow their pride, and the first prototypes emerge in 1981. And they look a bit of a letdown.

[Nick Martell]

They're black and white.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

They're black and white with plain black bands.

[Nick Martell]

This feels like the kind of watch you would wear to a silent movie.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

They're well made and they're not ugly or anything, but they're not going to drive a new cycle.

[Nick Martell]

So how is this thing supposed to save the Swiss watch industry? This episode is sponsored by Abbott. Let's talk about a small thing that can make a big difference if you have diabetes. The Freestyle Libre 3 Plus sensor. It's amazing to see how the sensor gives you real time glucose readings so you can see the impact of every meal and activity to make better choices. The Freestyle Libre 3 Plus sensor can help you live life with diabetes on your terms. You can try it for free at Freestyle Libre US offer available for people who qualify. Visit MyFreestyle US to see all terms and conditions. Certain exclusions apply for prescription only safety info found @freestylelibre us yetis. You're behind the wheel of your trusty used Pontiac Firebird and you're pulling into the shady refuge of the mall park and garage. The cool cement structure is sweet relief after driving around in the baking Texas sun. But there's delicious AC where you're going. The sprawling palace of commerce known as the American Shopping Mall.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The Texas mall you're walking into in the fall of 1982 has everything the teenage hut desires. Orange Julius down in the food courts, scrunchies over at the Claire's boutiques, even an ice skating rink to slide around on between shopping sprees.

[Nick Martell]

Jack. I can even smell the Anthea Ann's pretzels from here. But today, there is a newcomer to this gleaming capitalist temple. It's an affordable Swiss made quartz watch that's starting a test run a few months before its release. And this test watch is a direct descendant of the boring black and white Vulgaris. But this one's available in 25 different colors and styles, from brick red to olive green to mustard yellow to straight up black.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And on the back of the packaging is this message. Here's your new Swiss watch, or Swatch for short. Wow. There it is.

[Nick Martell]

This thing promises quartz accuracy, shock resistance and waterproofing up to 100ft. Jack, you can swim with this watch or you could downhill ski with this watch. You can even jump into a Jacuzzi. Naked or under. Naked.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

With this watch, shout out to our Jacuzzi episode.

[Nick Martell]

And the battery, it lasts three years. No repairs needed. Oh, and did we mention that this thing is Swiss? You know, like Rolex Swiss.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The package also suggests, and this is a quote, you should choose more than one.

[Nick Martell]

This is big. And here's how we got here. It's been a busy couple of years since those very first black and white boring prototypes rolled off the assembly line.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Nick Hayek commissioned that report and led that big merger of the biggest watchmakers in Switzerland.

[Nick Martell]

So now Hayek, he's in charge of this huge organization and he's sitting there asking anyone here working on some kind of quartz watch to compete with Japan. Anyone? And it turns out, yeah, there is a guy, Ernst Tomka, has a quartz watch, but they're a little boring, so they needed a little zhuzhing.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Enter the perfect, perfectly fabulous marketing and design consultant by the name of Franz Sprecher.

[Nick Martell]

Jack, tell us about Franz.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Sprecher is brand new to the watch sector, but he is a seasoned pro when it comes to marketing and design.

[Nick Martell]

It's actually Sprecher who gives Swatch its iconic name.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

He comes up with it as a way to showcase both the Swissness of the product and the idea that it can be your second watch.

[Nick Martell]

So, Jack, I'd like to buy a consonant here, but just to make sure I'm right, the S in Swatch stands for Swiss or second.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I would say it stands for Swiss and second.

[Nick Martell]

There we go.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But naming it the Swatch is probably Sprecher's least impressive contribution. Believe it or not, he Also declares that this watch should be marketed not as a watch, but like a fashion accessory. You should buy more than one.

[Nick Martell]

It's a huge unlock because Sprecher wants customers to look at these watches like they look at earrings or like they look at neckties. You wouldn't wear the same necktie every day. Right.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

They'd think you're like a waiter at the Olive Garden or something.

[Nick Martell]

Well, this watch, at around 40 bucks, it's pretty close in price to a really solid nice tie.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So you can buy a bunch of them to round out your wardrobe.

[Nick Martell]

What Sprecher is suggesting here is a strategy known as wardrobe. And honestly, we have seen wardrobe applied to a bunch of other sectors, haven't we, Jack?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Like when Warby Parker came on the scene in 2010, they termed something that people usually have just 1 of eyeglasses into a fashion accessory that you can have multiple pairs of to pair with different outfits.

[Nick Martell]

Didn't you reveal at the top of the pod you have 40 pairs of sunglasses?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Maybe rounding up, but yeah, that's pretty much correct.

[Nick Martell]

Warby got you buying glasses like you'd buy handbags. And that fashion angle can really pay off if you commit to it. And that brings us back to this sunny mall down in Texas, where Swatch's Lone star debut is just a test run of 10,000 watches. It's a prequel to their official European launch coming up next spring. So here's what Swatch is thinking. If these Texans really hate these $40 watches, the company could just make some tweaks or they could just cancel the entire launch altogether. Jack, what was the result?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It didn't go well. Sales at the Texas mall are flatter than expected, leading Swatches makers to declare that middle America isn't feeling these Eurochic watches.

[Nick Martell]

That small test. Even if it's not a blow up success, it's not a total bust. Because despite the low sales numbers, the early adopter customers they do see are latching on to this wardrobe idea. And after buying their first Swatch, these folks are coming back to the mall for a second, a third, a fourth Swatch.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So even within this bad news, something is working. There are people who want swatches as accessories.

[Nick Martell]

Now all Swatch needs to do is go and find him. As Tim Gunn would say, make it work.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Swatch.

[Nick Martell]

It officially launches on March 1, 1983 in Switzerland, Germany and the U.K. swatch starts with just 12 styles, each retailing for between 30 and 40 bucks. And unlike their Texas test run, Swatch launches colors and styles that have gotten a Lot more vivid. Gone are those drab olive greens and the muted bricks. These aren't Swiss army camo watches anymore, are they, Jack?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Instead, Swatch gives us bright reds with black detail, a bold canary yellow. Even the slate gray model looks crisp, like their cup from a fashion magazine.

[Nick Martell]

They're going full Skittles on this. Can you taste the rainbow, Jack?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And thanks to the new color palette, in the more cosmopolitan market, the European rollout goes much better. Swatch is an instant hit. Look at this. Swatch does not pull out of the US Market where they were struggling. Instead, they adjust their design approach thanks to feedback from a key distributor. The CEO of Bloomingdale's. He hadn't been very impressed so far with the Swatch test run, so he gave the Swatch makers some very specific notes.

[Nick Martell]

He wanted to see at least 20 different models. And this is key. Jack, are you taking notes over there? You better be taking notes on this. You ready? He said he wants a new watch collection every six months. We're talking designer editions of watches, 20.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Different models and a new design collection every six months. That sounds like a lot of work.

[Nick Martell]

And it's a quid pro quo. Like, you want us to showcase you like a fashion brand. Well, then you got to act like a fashion brand, man. Well, Swatch's marketing consultant, Franz Sprecher, he hears this and he says, jack, how would you say this, by the way?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

He says, yeah.

[Nick Martell]

He takes this assignment and he sprints with it, and he starts laying out his vision of this new concept called the perpetual event.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

In the summer of 1983, Swatch launches its first limited edition special called the Jellyfish. Designed by a woman named Marlisa Schmidt, the Jellyfish is transparent like a jellyfish. So you can see the inner movements of this wristwatch.

[Nick Martell]

The 80s, they were big on, bendy see through plastic jelly bracelets, jelly shoes. So this jellyfish Swatch, it lands square in the zeitgeist. Nothing pairs better with the side ponytail and leg warmers quite like a jelly wristwatch.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The first limited run of just 200 units sells out almost immediately. So Nick Hayek, the big boss back in Switzerland, he is so dazzled by the sellout that he pushes for a jellyfish reissue right away. Let's make more of these things. They're selling my cockcakes.

[Nick Martell]

Okay. But then, funny thing, Jack. His design team is like, we're not going to do that.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Swatch will not be repeating themselves.

[Nick Martell]

It's kind of like the bearjack when Carmi insists on, like, a new menu every single night.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

You don't get a Michelin star by repeating the same old menu items, Nick.

[Nick Martell]

Good point.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And you don't win in the fashion world by repeating yourself either. Keeping certain designs rare and limited run creates exclusivity, which elevates those designs to cult status. Now Swatch does briefly cave and reissue a slightly updated jellyfish in the fall.

[Nick Martell]

After all, this whole fashion thing, it's new to them, but after that, they.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Promise they won't make another one for nearly two years. That is discipline, Nick.

[Nick Martell]

Today, a first edition jellyfish in good condition. It's actually worth about six grand.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

By December 1983, nine months after the Swatch watches launch, the parent company SMH hits their 12 month sales target of one million Swatches sold.

[Nick Martell]

They hit that goal a full quarter ahead of their projections.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Wall street would be drooling on sales like that.

[Nick Martell]

But Swatch's legend status, it's still a long way off because there's a thin line between fashion and fads. Fads fade, but fashion works in cycles. So now Swatch is in the game. But how can Swatch make sure they stay in the rotation? The music's loud, the crowd is raucous, and you can bet those drinks are weak. It is September 20, 1984, and we are on the West End edge of Chelsea in New York City at the famous nightclub known as the Roxy.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

By day, it's a roller skating rink. By night, it's a disc out.

[Nick Martell]

And the Roxy is one of the city's first true multiracial hip hop clubs. It's a proving ground for young DJs and MCs, B boys and B girls. And it's where artists like the Beastie Boys and Madonna go to work out their new material.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But today's event isn't some free for all. Grab your Adidas and limber up because it's the first ever world Breakdancing Championships at the Roxy.

[Nick Martell]

Jack, let's welcome them to the stage. We got Brooklyn's own larger than life rap trio known as the Fat Boys. They're going to perform and with prizes worth 25 grand each, these dancers are bringing their A game. So under the neon pink lights of the Roxy, the judges watch dancers do their pop and locks, the Turtle spins and even the classic worm. And one of those judges is a curly haired painter with wireframe glasses and a cheerful expression.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's pop artist Keith Heron. You know the guy who paints all those cartoon dancing people with round heads and no faces? Absolutely. He's the guy who designed the event's. Poster, their logo and their stage art.

[Nick Martell]

And each massive on stage canvas features a breakdancer drawn in Herring signature style, but with a big goofy watch for a head. Because yetis this entire breakdancing event, it's sponsored by Swatch.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

If this mashup between east coast hip hop, B boy culture, street art and Swiss watchmaking seems wild to you, it doesn't scan that way to the crowd. It works because Swatch has brought watches a long way from the stuffy clockworks of your grandpa's nightstand. There's no more conservative men wearing conservative suits. They're now at the bleeding edge of American youth culture.

[Nick Martell]

This is Franz Brecher's perpetual event strategy in action.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Yeah. Swatch is creating events out of their design releases and using live events to inspire new designs. Swatch will later pair with Herring himself to create four limited edition watches. We can't do them justice on this audio show. You gotta google them.

[Nick Martell]

These look like a birthday party if it were a watch. But Herring, legend as he was, wasn't even the first artist. SW Swatch actually collaborated with that title. It goes to the French artist Kiki Picasso, no relation to Pablo. And they hire Kiki to create a limited run Swatch for a new collection called Swatch and art. And only 140 timepieces are ever created, each with slightly different colors.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Today, the Kiki is the single most valuable Swatch in the world, with a market price of around $22,000. One of them even went for 45 grand at Sotheby's.

[Nick Martell]

But artsy kids, they aren't the only target demo at the lunch table. What about the jocks and the skate punks? Swatch goes after them by sponsoring a freestyle ski World cup and later a BMX and a skateboarding tour.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Swatch does have one sponsorship rule. They don't sponsor the big American sports. They're not going to do football. They're not going to do baseball, because that's done by so many brands already. Swatch wants to break the mold and they choose the endorsement road less traveled.

[Nick Martell]

But the end result of Swatch's design collabs and these perpetual events, it is pure hockey stick growth. They start going Gretzky in the 80s with sales soaring from 1 million watches in 1983 to 3 1/2 million watches in 1984.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

In 1986, they more than triple sales. Again, besties, they have gone exponential.

[Nick Martell]

And keep in mind, it's only been three years since Nick Hayek sat in that conference room with those conservative suits and Told them, hey, we're not going to surrender the Swiss watch industry. Switzerland is not just back in the watch race. Switzerland is speeding toward the front of the pack. They are growing sales at both the low end and the high end in the same industry.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

They're growing sales at both the bottom of the cake and the top of the cake.

[Nick Martell]

Sprinkle on the sprinkles, Jack. Now over in Japan, Seiko and Casio, they aren't gone, but they're not driving the cultural conversation the way they used to pre Swatch. And with every single year SMH is clawing back more and more of that watch market share besties.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

We're not going to go through every one of the iconic styles that defined Swatch mania because they were releasing 22 to 24 watch designs twice a year.

[Nick Martell]

Jack, this is like she in Speed right there.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

With more colors than a stable full of My little Ponies.

[Nick Martell]

Some of these watches, they even have scented straps. That's right, Swatch started appealing to your other senses.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Swatch had watch straps that were shaped like chili peppers, cucumbers and even bacon.

[Nick Martell]

Exactly. As the limited editions rack up, so does the collector culture and Swatch aficionados, or Swatch dogs as they're known, real name, actual people. They start attending conventions and reseller auctions of these Swatches.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Swatch vendors often set a one watch per customer limit, which buyers tried to get around by wearing wigs and other disguises into the stores.

[Nick Martell]

I'm sorry sir, can you come over here and empty out your pockets? We gotta go TSA on you and yetis. Here's how much swagger Swatch has at this time. In 1991, Swatch decides to release a low priced but mechanical self winding model. Remember, that's the kind of watch that isn't powered by a battery. It's just powered by old fashioned physics.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

A low end mechanical watch sounds like a step backward, but it actually becomes a gateway product for the timepiece. Curious and the 1990s shockingly see mechanical watch sales spike on both the low and the high end, even though they're an outdated technology.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, and Jack, we can see and track this trend of the Swatch dynamics like through pop culture, can't we?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Swatch's reintroduction of mechanical watches times up perfectly with James Bond giving up on digital watches.

[Nick Martell]

When Pierce Brosnan handsomely stars in 1995's GoldenEye, he kicks off his reign as 007 with an Omega Seamaster on his wrist. And Omega is a Swiss watch brand that happens to be Owned by swatch.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And in 1992, the company produces its 100 millionth swatch, and Nick Hayek autographs it.

[Nick Martell]

By 93, SMH has sales of $2 billion and profits of $286 million. Yetis this makes swatch the best selling new brand in the history of business. The next time Swatch sponsors a big sporting event, it's 1996. And what event is that, Jack?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's the Olympics.

[Nick Martell]

And Nikki Hayek literally carries the torch in Olympics Atlanta. The American press, they call him Mr. Swatch. It's a literal gold medal event.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But unbeknownst to Mr. Swatch and company, a new competitor is on the way. Not from Japan, but from Silicon Valley.

[Nick Martell]

It's 2002, and Nick Hayek is making a heavy decision. It's been 20 years since he first wrote that Hayek report. That saved the Swiss watch industry with his wedding cake analogy. And now he might need to step back.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The company he helped create, smh, is now officially known as the Swatch Group, and Hayek has been CEO for 16 years. In that time, he's seen the entire Swiss watchmaking industry bounce back, led by Swatch's record sales numbers. In 1997, they topped the equivalent of $4 billion in today's dollars. His wild strategy of cheap Swatch watches simultaneously managed to turn Rolex into the ultimate luxury watch brand. What Hayek has done for the Swiss watch industry may even be the greatest turnaround in business history.

[Nick Martell]

But Hayek, he's in his 70s now, and it's time to pass the second hand. His son, Nick Hayek Jr. Becomes chief executive, and his daughter Nyla, she's the board chair. Nick Sr. He remains involved with the company, and in 2010, he passes away at work at the age of 82.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

What an amazing run for Nick Hayek.

[Nick Martell]

But now it's up to Nick Jr. And Nyla to weather the coming storm. Because no product goes unchallenged forever, does it, Jack?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

No, it does.

[Nick Martell]

And in the 2000 teens, decades after the Quartz watch revolution, Swatch and Swiss watchmakers generally, they see their industry dominance getting challenged again by a new kind of tech upgrade. Jack, I think you know where I'm going with this, because I think you may be wearing it, right? I think I do.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I think it has to do with step counting.

[Nick Martell]

10,033, 10,034. Yetis. It is the Fitbit. It launches in 2009, and it uses Swatching principles in its design and its marketing, with cute, rubbery wristbands in bright colors. That you can match to each of your outfits.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Wardrobing with the Fitbit is easy, because when you want a new look, you can just swap out the strap.

[Nick Martell]

And by 2015, Fitbit IPOs at a 4.1 billion dollar valuation. And four years later, Fitbit is acquired by Google. But if Fitbit's the appetizer, then Jack, the Apple Watch that is the main course. And the first generation Apple Watch debuts in 2014, taking the watch industry to an entirely new level.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

In 2020 alone, Apple sells around 34 million Apple watches. That is two and a half times as many watches as the entire nation of Switzerland exports that year.

[Nick Martell]

So yetis, you hear an insane statistic like that and you're thinking, man, there is no way Swatch could survive.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But Swatch has survived.

[Nick Martell]

In a total shock. Swatch pulls off an upswing turnaround, thanks in part to a trend that Jack and I can't wait to tell you about. We said earlier that fashion moves in cycles. Well, you know what? So does nostalgia. In fact, Jack and I did a deep dive, and we found that nostalgia actually moves in 20 year life cycles. That is just enough time for everything old to feel new again without being so far back that people can't remember it. 20 years is the perfect balance of the opposing forces of novelty and sentimentality.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's the reason why you started seeing uggs everywhere in 2024. Twenty years after they ruled all those suburban sidewalks.

[Nick Martell]

Exactly, Jack. That's why 80s throwback shows like Stranger Things are dominating TV right now. That's 40 years back, which by my calculation, Jack, that is two nostalgia cycles.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

In fact, Stranger Things had a major Swatch moment. We mentioned it at the top of the show. It was an episode that went mega viral in 2022.

[Nick Martell]

The character Max is trapped in the Upside down, and when her friends come to the rescue, we see she's wearing a bright yellow period. Accurate Swatch Watch.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And that episode of Stranger Things sends Internet Swatch dogs into a tizzy.

[Nick Martell]

In 2023, Swatch turns 40 years old again. That is two nostalgia cycles.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And the Swatch group came ready for it.

[Nick Martell]

Around this time, Swatch launched retro posthumous collabs with artists like Keith Haring and Jean Michel Basquiat. Swatch even brought back their transparent jellyfish. Although these days they call it the Clear.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's this nostalgia strategy, bringing back the greatest hits from 20 and 40 years ago, that allow Swatch to be in vogue again. This is how they survived the Fitbit and Apple Watch threat from Silicon Valley.

[Nick Martell]

Four decades after their Launch. Swatch's range of colors, its designs, its limited edition drops, they fit perfectly into the social media era. And Swatch's official Instagram account, it's got 2 million followers, which. Jack, could you sprinkle on some chronological context for us, please?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That's more than Casio us, Seiko US and Bulova combined.

[Nick Martell]

You heard that Yeti Swatch. It was the original wrist influencer.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

We're officially on Firewatch. Till Charli XCX gets a Swatch line.

[Nick Martell]

It's only a matter of time, Jack. Literally. So, Jack, now that you've heard the story of Swatch, what's your takeaway?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

You can have your wedding cake and eat your cupcake too.

[Nick Martell]

Sounds delicious. I got to hear more.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The existence of a low budget item in your product lineup like a cupcake doesn't mean that the luxury wedding cake version can't thrive too. In fact, the low end product acts as a gateway product to the higher end version.

[Nick Martell]

All right, Jack, so I'm picturing like Diane von Furstenberg for Target or Brandon Maxwell for Walmart. Yep, they are all luxury brands with budget versions to help stoke a broader brand affinity and demand.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Right, and it's proven by people's ongoing obsession with Rolex, Omega, Cartier and other luxury watches. Swatches. Swatch didn't kill Rolex. It made Rolex stronger. You can have your wedding cake and eat your cupcake too, Nick. What's your takeaway, Jack?

[Nick Martell]

My takeaway is that to conduct a successful turnaround, you gotta attack the three Ps, people, product and plan. So first you need to make bold changes to the executives who make your decisions, the people. And then you gotta change up what you're selling, the product. And finally, you gotta work on the strategy, the plan. But you know what? You need all three. All three P's or else your turnaround, it ain't gonna turn. And Jack and I have seen organizations that try to change just one or two of these P's and honestly just doesn't work out.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And Swatch hit all the three P's really hard. First, they changed the people by putting Hayek in charge of the company with Tomka and Sprecher working below.

[Nick Martell]

Okay, and then they invented the Swatch, which of course was a change to the product.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And finally, they executed the fashion based wardrobing strategy as their plan.

[Nick Martell]

You change your 3Ps and your turnaround is more likely to succeed.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

All right, before we go, Nicholas, it is time for our favorite part of the show. The best facts yet.

[Nick Martell]

The hero stats, the facts, the surprises that we discovered in our research. But we couldn't fit into this story. Jack hit me. What do you got?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

We know about Swatch's work with pop artists, but did you know there was an almost collab with Andy Warhol?

[Nick Martell]

What do you think?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The company first approached him in 1984. Andy declined, but instead recommended one of his Keith Harry.

[Nick Martell]

It was a safety school, but it worked out really well. And Nicholas Hayek Sr. The longtime CEO of Swatch Group, the absolute legend of the wrist. He brought us another surprising product too. The Smart Car. That's right, the micro car was designed to have colorful, personalized paneling and carry two people in a case of beer.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Its original name was the Swatch Mobile.

[Nick Martell]

And that is why Swatch is the Best Idea Yet.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Coming up on the next episode of the Best Idea yet is the pioneering.

[Nick Martell]

And harrowing story of the Oregon Trail. Check yourself for Dysentery Yetis does one.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Check oneself for dysentery?

[Nick Martell]

I wouldn't know and I don't want to know. Jack.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Follow the Best Idea yet on the Wondery app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of the Best Idea yet early and ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[Nick Martell]

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey. The best idea yet is a production of Wondery hosted by me, Nick Martel.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And me, Jack Kravici Kramer.

[Nick Martell]

And hey, if you have a product you're obsessed with but you wish you knew the backstory, drop us a comment. We'll look into it for you. Oh, and don't forget to rate and review the podcast.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Our senior producers are Matt Beagle and Chris Gautier.

[Nick Martell]

Peter A.R. cooney is our producer.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Our senior managing producer is Nick Ryan and Taylor Sniffin is our managing producer.

[Nick Martell]

Our associate producer and researcher is H. Conley.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This episode was written and produced by Katie Clark Gray.

[Nick Martell]

We use many sources in our research.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Including the Innovation Factory Taking the Plunge by Gilles Gorel and Swatch co designer Elmer Mock and Mr. Swatch Nicholas Hayek and the Secret of His Success by Jurg Wegelen sound design and mixing by.

[Nick Martell]

CJ Drummler fact checking by Molly Artwick.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Music supervision by Scott Velasquez and Jolina Garcia for Frisson Sync.

[Nick Martell]

Our theme song is Got that Feeling Again by Blackilac Executive producers for Nick and Jack Studios are me, Nick Martell.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And me, Jack Revici Kramer.

[Nick Martell]

Executive producers for Wondery are Dave Easton, Jenny Lauer, Beckman, Aaron O'Flaherty and Marshall Luke.