🏖️ Tommy Bahama's Beach Chair: Fake Dude, Real Billions | 34

Summary

The Best Idea Yet: Tommy Bahama's Beach Chair – Fake Dude, Real Billions | Episode 34 Summary

Release Date: June 3, 2025

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I. Introduction

In Episode 34 of Wondery’s The Best Idea Yet, hosts Nick Martell and Jack Crivici-Kramer delve into the fascinating origin story of the iconic Tommy Bahama beach chair. This episode unpacks how a bold idea, rooted in a fictional character, transformed a modest startup into a billion-dollar lifestyle empire.

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II. The Genesis of Tommy Bahama

The story begins in the early 1990s with Bob Enfield and Tony Margolis, long-time friends and managers at a now-defunct clothing company. Faced with unemployment at the age of 50 after their company, Genera, filed for bankruptcy due to the fleeting success of Hypercolor T-shirts, Bob and Tony revisited an old brainstorm from years past.

“What would Tommy do?” (02:32) became the mantra as they resurrected their fictional alter ego, Tommy Bahama—a man perpetually on vacation, embodying the perfect island lifestyle.

With their combined experience in the clothing industry and a fresh perspective, they launched the Tommy Bahama brand in 1993. Their first product, the Camp shirt, was designed by their newly recruited co-founder and resident designer, Lucio Della Gasparina. These shirts featured bright, flowery patterns and employed vanity sizing to resonate psychologically with their target audience, ensuring customers felt confident and relaxed.

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III. Early Challenges and Missteps

Despite their strong branding and high-quality products, Tommy Bahama faced significant hurdles in its initial years. The founders made three critical mistakes:

1. Overpaying Executives: Coming from six-figure executive backgrounds, Bob, Tony, and Lucio drew substantial salaries from their startup’s limited capital. As Nick aptly puts it, “$2 million doesn't go as far when a quarter of it is tied up in executive pay.” (13:06)

2. Overclothing the Market: They ambitiously launched three different clothing lines simultaneously, including a teenage skater boy line called Gear for Urban Training, diluting their brand focus and confusing their target market.

3. Flawed Distribution Strategy: Confident in their retail experience, the trio opted to partner directly with large department stores. However, these retailers were hesitant to invest in an unproven brand named after a fictional character, threatening the company’s survival.

Facing potential shutdown, Bob, Tony, and Lucio pivoted to selling exclusively through small boutiques in coastal resort towns. This strategic shift allowed them to build closer relationships with their customers and stabilize their financial footing by 1994.

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IV. The Turning Point: Beach Chair Innovation

By 2008, after being acquired by Oxford Industries in 2003 for $325 million, Tommy Bahama was thriving. However, the onset of the Great Recession hit the luxury lifestyle brand hard, causing sales to plummet by 40%. Enter Doug Wood, the new brand president, tasked with steering the company through economic turbulence.

Amidst this struggle, Chrisann Furciato, Senior Vice President of Licensing, proposed an innovative solution: expanding the brand into high-quality beach chairs through a collaboration with outdoor camping brand Shelter Logic. Initially met with skepticism, Chrisann persuasively argued:

“This chair is a damn good chair.” (31:26)

She highlighted the chair’s superior features—five reclined positions, lightweight design with backpack straps, built-in cooler, and robust construction supporting up to 300 pounds. Additionally, the chair’s canvas fabric provided ideal space for Tommy Bahama’s marlin logo, effectively turning each chair into a mobile billboard.

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V. Strategic Partnership with Costco

Despite Doug Wood’s reservations about brand alignment with a wholesale giant like Costco, Chrisann presented compelling data:

“Costco’s average shopper has a higher median income than folks who shop at other wholesale clubs.” (34:08)

The partnership with Costco proved transformative. The initial order of beach chairs guaranteed $250,000 in revenue, and the strategic placement within Costco’s curated aisles ensured that the chairs reached a broad, affluent customer base. The reception was overwhelming:

• Sales Skyrocket: Tommy Bahama beach chairs began selling approximately 2 million units annually, capturing an estimated 80% of the market for beach chairs over $30.
• Critical Acclaim: The chairs received top ratings from major publications like The New York Times Wirecutter and CNN, cementing their status as both a critical and commercial success.
• Year-Round Sales: Unlike seasonal products, the beach chairs enjoyed steady sales throughout the year, catering to various activities beyond beach vacations, such as football and grilling seasons.

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VI. Legacy and Impact

The success of the beach chair not only reinforced Tommy Bahama’s market dominance but also showcased the power of strategic licensing and brand expansion. By integrating the beach chair into Costco’s retail ecosystem, Tommy Bahama solidified its position as a leader in casual luxury, blending functionality with elegant design.

By 2023, the brand had expanded into a $1.7 billion empire, encompassing retail, wholesale, hospitality, and licensing, including their own Palm Springs resort. The beach chair remained a cornerstone product, symbolizing the brand’s commitment to quality and lifestyle.

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VII. Lessons Learned

The Best Idea Yet episode on Tommy Bahama’s beach chair offers several key takeaways:

1. Crafting a Strong Brand Identity: Creating a detailed fictional character can effectively guide brand development and ensure consistency across products and experiences.

   “They literally brainstormed every detail of this fake dude's life, his preferences, taste choices, as if they were real.” (39:28)

2. Strategic Adaptability: Pivoting distribution strategies and embracing new partnerships can rescue a struggling brand and unlock new growth avenues.

3. Quality and Trust in Licensing: Ensuring that licensed products meet high standards is crucial for maintaining brand integrity and consumer trust.

4. Experienced Founders Bring Valuable Insights: Middle-aged founders with industry expertise, relationships, and capital can drive startup success just as effectively as younger, trendier entrepreneurs.

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VIII. Conclusion

Tommy Bahama’s journey from a legal pad sketch to a market-dominating beach chair exemplifies how innovative thinking, strategic partnerships, and unwavering commitment to brand identity can turn a simple idea into a billion-dollar phenomenon. As Nick and Jack conclude, “When it comes to crafting your brand identity, be a Hemingway. Create a touchstone that embodies your values.” (39:54)

The Tommy Bahama beach chair stands as a testament to the best idea yet—a product that seamlessly blends style, functionality, and brand storytelling to capture the hearts and beaches of millions worldwide.

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Notable Quotes

• “We did the iPhone, but Jack, technically there are three times as many Android users globally. So is iPhone really number one?” – Jack Crivici-Kramer (01:12)

• “This is an engineering marvel. It folds up into a backpack so beachgoers can carry the rest of their seaside gear in both hands.” – Nick Martell (01:56)

• “Don't ever do it.” – Nick Martell (12:07)

• “This ain't just any chair. This is elevated beach lounging.” – Jack Crivici-Kramer (31:55)

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Final Thoughts

The story of Tommy Bahama’s beach chair is not just about a successful product but also about the resilience, creativity, and strategic thinking that drive true entrepreneurial success. For anyone interested in business insights and the untold tales behind beloved products, this episode of The Best Idea Yet is a must-listen.

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*Follow The Best Idea Yet on the Wondery App or your preferred podcast platform to uncover more stories of viral products and the bold risk-takers who made them iconic.

Transcript

[Nick Martell]

Wondery subscribers can listen to the best idea yet, early and ad free right now.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

[Nick Martell]

All right, Jack. Best all time superheroes. You can only pick one. Here you go.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

It's definitely not Superman, okay? Because Superman was born with unbelievable superpowers.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Now, Iron man, he built his iron suit with his bare hands.

[Nick Martell]

He's a self made suit superhero.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

But the only superhero who is a head of state is the Black Panther.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, you gotta worry about policy tariffs. I mean, that's a lot to worry about if you're a superhero. Not your typical gig.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Nick, who do you got?

[Nick Martell]

Batman wasn't bit granted or given any superpowers other than a trust fund. He didn't have any of these freaky superpowers. True, Bruce Wayne, he's kind of a nepo baby, but he made it work, Jack. But as you can tell, it is very rare yetis for there to be a very clear number one in any particular category.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Out of all the products we've done on this show, there isn't a clear number one winner.

[Nick Martell]

We did the iPhone, but Jack, technically there are three times as many Android users globally. So is iPhone really number one?

[Jack Revici Kramer]

But there is one product that has an undisputed champion.

[Nick Martell]

One product that's been on top and stayed on top, ironically, by staying under your bottom.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

The Tommy Bahama beach chair. If you've been to the beach in the last 15 years, you've probably noticed there's two types of beach chairs. And the Tommy Bahama beach chair and then all the rest.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, and you can spot the Tommy Bahama beach chair by its colorful, exotic patterns, much like the island business casual shirts that the company is known for.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

But what really distinguishes this beach chair is all the bells and whistles. It has a pillow. It has a side pouch. It has a built in cooler. It can lay down flat. So it's actually also a beach bed. Jack.

[Nick Martell]

This is an engineering marvel. It folds up into a backpack so beachgoers can carry the rest of their seaside gear in both hands.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

We swear this isn't sponsored content. We're just both huge fans of this chair. The Tommy Bahama beach chair commands 75% of the market, with around 2 million chairs sold every year.

[Nick Martell]

And these chairs first debuted in 2009 after Tommy Bahama, the company had already been in business for over a decade.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

To tell the story of this chair, we'll need to get into the origins of Mr. Bahama himself, who, by the way, is not a real person.

[Nick Martell]

The company, though, was founded in the early 90s by a couple of besties. In the second acts of their careers.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

This duo worked hard, ironically, by building a brand all about not working. No shoes, no job. No problem. Tommy Bahama's target audience is boomers, but this chair has become a millennial obsession.

[Nick Martell]

This is the story of how Tommy Bahama bounced back from a rocky start to become the go to uniform for relaxed dads, the first name in beach chairs, and a global branding empire worth close to 2 billion bucks.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

And we'll tell you why this iconic beach almost never happened until one tenacious exec fought her boss for her best idea.

[Nick Martell]

We'll hear why startup founders are more than just hoodie wearing tech bros and.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Why lifestyle branding is like writing a great novel.

[Nick Martell]

Just make sure to brush off the sand before you put the beach chair back in the car.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Here's why Tommy Bahama's beach chair is the Best Idea yet.

[Nick Martell]

From Wondery and T Boy. I'm Nick Martell.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

And I'm Jack Revici Kramer and this.

[Nick Martell]

Is the best idea yet. The untold origin stories of the you're.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Obsessed with and the bold risk takers who made them go viral. They changed the game in one move. It's how they this episode of the Best Idea yet is brought to you by our presenting sponsor, Amazon.

[Nick Martell]

Shopping on Amazon is one of the easiest ways to streamline your shopping so you can get time back to do the things you actually want to do, like listening to this podcast.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Save the Everyday with deals from Amazon. Burgers and dogs sizzle on the grill as a portable radio plays. Classic rock waves gently lap the white sand beach below the deck of a cozy beach house in the chill snowbird town of Naples, Florida. The sun is just starting to set, turning the sky a fiery red.

[Nick Martell]

Over on the deck, 2:40 something couples are sipping on homemade Mai Tai as the warm Gulf breeze ruffles their hair. The wives? They're chatting and watching the fishing boats go by as their husbands are staring at the grill flames. And then they circle back to their favorite subject, work and how amazing it would be to to never go back to work.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

By this time in the mid-1980s, the husbands, Bob Enfield and Tony Margolis, aren't ready to retire yet.

[Nick Martell]

Bob, he's got a thick head of hair already turning silver and a tan it took him all vacation to cultivate. Tony, on the other hand, he's got dark hair. It's a little more sparse on the head, but he's got a 200 watt incandescent smile that he flashes when he's trying to catch the bartender's attention.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

The two have been friends since 1969, when they were both managers at a clothing company that no longer exists.

[Nick Martell]

Well, these days they're actually still working together over at a Seattle based clothing brand called Genera. But right now they're enjoying the last few moments of their vacation.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

They're at Tony's beach house, but Bob and his wife have a beach house too, just up the shore. These couples love the vacay lifestyle and they dream of a day when they can throw their neckties into the Gulf Mexico and never go back to the office again. And this daydream becomes such an obsession that Bob and Tony start riffing as they flip the burger patties. Imagine a fictional character who could actually live the life that we could only dream of.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, yeah, a middle aged guy, but like an active middle aged guy. Like picture some guy who's playing 18 holes in the morning and then taking the Mastercraft out on the water with the usual crowd for sunset. And this guy, he's got a trust fund that he never discusses, but it means he never has to go back to work.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Actually, not just a trust fund. This made up guy has an inheritance from his late parents who abandoned him in a coconut field when he was a boy.

[Nick Martell]

This guy who they're envisioning is a full grown man with an ideal island lifestyle.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Part Jimmy Buffett, part James Bond, he.

[Nick Martell]

Drinks Red Stripe and smokes hand rolled cigars.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Bob even comes up with a name for this make believe hero of theirs. Tommy Bahama.

[Nick Martell]

It's got a nice ring to it.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Bob and Tony end up jotting down the details of Tommy on a legal bat. Writing Tommy's backstory is fun, but at first his purpose isn't totally clear.

[Nick Martell]

Was this a branding exercise? Was it the start of a new business idea? Is this like a character from an Elmore Leonard novel? Like what was the point of this?

[Jack Revici Kramer]

They're not sure. Maybe he's just fun to talk about. The man on permanent vacation.

[Nick Martell]

And then, well, they simply drop it. Tommy B. Is just an inside joke between the two of them. The legal pad gets tucked away into some desk and Bob and Tony just move on with their lives.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Until one very tough week at the office in 1992. We mentioned that Bob and Tony work at a company called Genera. It's a company known for hypercolor, a type of color changing fabric that has a brief viral moment in 1991.

[Nick Martell]

Apparently they sold $50 million worth of T shirts in a single three month window. But then the hype faded immediately and within a year, Genera is suddenly filing for bankruptcy and Bob and Tony are faced with unemployment on the age of 50.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

So with no prospects, Tony asks Bob, hey, Bob, you still have the stuff on that Island Guy?

[Nick Martell]

Funny you should ask, because you know what? Bob does still have it.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

So Bob digs out that legal pad from his desk drawer and dusts off all those notes. All that island guy lore they came up with. Why not make it the basis of a new clothing brand named for Mr. Coconut himself, Tommy Bahama.

[Nick Martell]

Now, their first logo is not a coconut, but a palm tree nestled like a middle initial between Tommy's first and last names.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

But the brand's mascot, brand ambassador and style guru is Tommy himself. If you can picture Tommy wearing it on the deck of a catamaran, it's in the collection.

[Nick Martell]

And we're not talking fishing vests and cargos, are we, Jack?

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Not at all. They hone in on the leisure category. This Tommy will be upscale casual. Silk shirts, linen trousers, sandals, no socks.

[Nick Martell]

Okay. Should be simple, right? These guys just drop the clothing, do the designs, get this stuff made.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

But despite having two lifetimes worth of experience in the clothing industry, neither Bob nor Tony are designers. They've both been on the managerial track. So they're going to need help translating their pretend character's wardrobe into an IRL clothing line.

[Nick Martell]

They reach out to their buddy and colleague, a man 15 years their junior with a strong chin and an even stronger sense of style. His name is Lucio Della Gasparina. Now, they don't just hire Lucio, they actually bring him in as a third co founder and resident designer.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

And what Lucio designs for Tommy can be described as elegant tropical clothing for men with disposable incomes and approaching middle age. Comfortable, loose fitting shorts, tailored, flattering pants, and their signature product, the Camp shirt.

[Nick Martell]

Jack, can I go full Anna Wintour on you for a second? Do it. Okay. The camp shirt that's actually short for camp collar shirt. A style of short sleeve button down that can be traced all the way back to Filipino and Cuban men's fashion from the late 1800s. It's a cut, kind of like a bowling shirt, but more breathable. Ernest Hemingway. Yeah, he would rock these things hard.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Now, Tommy's not a rules guy by any means, but our co founders do establish some brand guidelines around the original Tommy Bahamas shirt. First, it'll be 100% silk. Second, it'll feature bright flowery patterns evoking the flora of a Caribbean getaway. And third, and Most strategically, the shirt will use vanity sizing.

[Nick Martell]

This is when the sizes are deflated to make it appear like you are one size smaller than your you actually are.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Vanity sizing shows a good understanding of their target audience and that sales comes down to psychology. These are guys who maybe remember themselves as wearing a medium, even if their bellies have grown into a large.

[Nick Martell]

Tommy Bahama does not want you stressing about your waistline. He doesn't want you to stress about anything. In fact, after all, you're on vacation when you're wearing Tommy Bahama.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

As for our three founders, Bob Enfield, Tony Margolis, and Lucio Dalla Gasparina, they're not stressing either, even though they have some challenges to overcome. For one, all three of them live thousands of miles apart.

[Nick Martell]

Lucio is going to oversee production and design over in Seattle, a city that's home to lots of apparel companies. So there's already infrastructure there, an experienced talent pool, and plenty of leftover thread.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Meanwhile, Tony will act as the president and the CEO from his home in New York City. And Bob, he'll handle sales and marketing from his home in Orono, Minnesota. They're building a distributed company across three different time zones, even though this is the pz, the pre Zoom era.

[Nick Martell]

So up next, Jack, we've got the people in place, we've got the product in place. Let's talk money, because anytime you launch a business, you're going to need some startup capital. You also need someone to make that product. And here is where the Tommy Bahama trio get really smart.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

These three are able to raise $1.5 million through their friends and family. But then through their contacts in the garment world, they find a factory in Hong Kong that's willing to pony up some cash as well and provide the manufacturing support. They're feeding two birds with one scone.

[Nick Martell]

Add all this up and they are launching their company with a pretty significant war chest of about 2 million bucks.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

That's over $4 million adjusted for inflation.

[Nick Martell]

Today, the actual name for their company is Viewpoint International, but that's not important right now. They launched the Tommy Bahama brand officially in 1993. Bob, Tony, and Lucio, they assume that they're going to be profitable within a year.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

But you know what they say about assuming?

[Nick Martell]

Don't ever do it.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Launching a lifestyle brand based off a fictional middle aged male character ain't as easy as flipping those burgers in Naples. This part often gets left out of the fashion history books. But despite their strong infrastructure, the founders, years of expertise, and a $2 million. Runway. Tommy Bahama spends the first two years on the edge of disaster. And we could chalk it all up to three big mistakes.

[Nick Martell]

Mistake number one, overpaid these guys. They simply paid themselves too much. They're all coming from six figure executive.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Positions, so naturally they pay themselves six figure salaries. But this startup doesn't really have the capital to sustain that for long.

[Nick Martell]

$2 million doesn't go as far when as much of a quarter of it is tied up in executive pay for your founders. Not a write off, guys.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Mistake number two, over clothed. They actually launched three clothing lines all at once. There's Tommy B's, of course, for middle aged vacationers. But they also launch a line of teenage skater boy clothes.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, boy.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Called Gear for Urban Training. Is this an April Fool's joke gone wrong?

[Nick Martell]

This ain't going to work, man.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

And finally, mistake number three. It involves their distribution strategy, how they're getting their products in front of people.

[Nick Martell]

Okay, if you heard our Juicy Couture tracksuit episode, you'll remember that Juicy built their brand by selling to small boutiques. At first, this let them build relationships with tastemakers and bespoke retail buyers without getting overwhelmed by massive orders that they couldn't keep up with if they'd partnered with department stores.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

But Bob, Tony, and Lucio, they say, forget the small boutiques. We're going to leapfrog straight to the big leagues. Big department stores. These guys considered themselves seasoned pros. They had decades of retail experience, so they were used to dealing with the big guys.

[Nick Martell]

But here's the problem, Jack. As a label, Tommy Bahama is a total unknown. Big department store chains, they don't like taking risks on an unproven brand named after some fake dude. That is not how Blumey's does business.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

It looks like Tommy Bahama might be sent off into the sunset and shut down before it even gets off the ground. The guys are desperate to save the company. So finally, they swallow their pride. They switch strategies, and they start selling to small stores instead of department stores.

[Nick Martell]

There we go. Smart pivot. Little by little, boutique by boutique, Tommy Bahamas becomes a trusted menswear brand for a relaxed beach for a living. Two years into their venture, their burn.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Rate has slowed, meaning they're no longer losing cash. Like a drunken sailor on shore leave.

[Nick Martell]

Our co founders have started to build deep relationships with men's shops in the same sandy coastal resort towns where Tommy Bahama would probably shop himself if he actually existed. But it is not enough to just stop losing money.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

They need to start making money and they need to do it fast.

[Nick Martell]

So we think that what the Tommy Bahama boys do next is going to surprise you.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Let's chat about our presenting sponsor.

[Nick Martell]

Amazon yet is a little inside scoop on how Jack and I record the show. We call it Big Tuesdays.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Because here's the thing, we have a daily show as well. The best one yet.

[Nick Martell]

So on Tuesdays, we spend three hours in the studio to record the best.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Idea yet after we already spent two hours recording our daily show beforehand.

[Nick Martell]

Big Tuesdays, they remind us of the double sessions we used to do as athletes. You gotta hydrate.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

You also gotta be efficient. So we don't have time to run an errand for milk or hit up the pharmacy for cough drops.

[Nick Martell]

That's why shopping for everyday essentials on Amazon is part of our daily and.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Weekly routine as we realize we need something. Pasta, paper, paper towels, light bulbs. Boom. We add it directly into the cart.

[Nick Martell]

Especially on big Tuesdays. Jack, last week I ordered a microphone on Amazon. I didn't even tell you it was a write off. I figured, what the heck.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Now for the non podcasters listening, you probably got your own version of Big Tuesdays.

[Nick Martell]

A back to back afternoon of meetings. It's the worst.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

But it happens with Amazon. You don't need to drive anywhere or hit up multiple stores.

[Nick Martell]

Save the everyday with deals from Amazon.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

The room is filled with rows of workers, but no one is looking up. Dozens of heads are bowed, concentrating as they feed bolts of cloth through sewing machines. Their feet press gently on pedals. The bobbins spin rhythmically. It's surprisingly quiet on the factory floor of this Hong Kong cloth clothing manufacturer. It's also brighter as the windows bathe the rows of sewing machines in natural light.

[Nick Martell]

This factory is churning out hundreds of pieces every hour. All items that our co founders Bob, Tony and Lucio plan to sell.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

But there isn't a single silky button down shirt in sight. No hibiscus prints, not even a measly palm tree. The items getting folded, stacked and boxed up for shipping are plain pleated khakis.

[Nick Martell]

Now, ironically, for a lifestyle brand with such an iconic beach look, the first truly profitable thing that Tommy Bahama does is create a private label division making basic clothes for some other label to be sold at a random 400 store chain.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Think of this gig like a professor taking a night job as a janitor just to make ends meet.

[Nick Martell]

Kind of ironic survival work because Tommy Bahama is all about permanent vacation and plain khakis. Yeah, that definitely screams work week.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Plain khaki pants aren't their dream product. It's just a way to pay the bills as Tommy Bahama keeps building its reputation and its client base across the coastal towns of America. And at the same time, they take on this private label work, the Tommy co founders also reduce their own salaries and they kill off those other failed clothing lines. By the end of 1994, they're finally in the black. Not only that, they have about $2 million to spend on some marketing for Tommy Bahama. So the first question Bob, Tony and Lucio ask themselves, what kind of marketing should we spend on?

[Nick Martell]

Well, we could do a glossy ad campaign for the pages of gq. Or they could shoot a TV commercial, maybe featuring some namey celebrity.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

How would Brad Pitt look in Tommy Bala? I think we'd all like to know that. But Nick, all these fancy marketing ideas, they sound expensive. And these brand advertising campaigns, there's no.

[Nick Martell]

Clear ROI Also, Jack, they feel a bit conventional, like TV ads. Leave that to the Gap. So instead, Bob, Tony and Lucio start channeling Tommy Bahama's brain, his mindset, his values. And they hatch a wild idea to raise the Tommy B Profile in a way their brand's fictional namesake might dig.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

The plan starts perfectly normally by opening a standalone Tommy Bahama retail store. Remember, previously, they'd been selling Tommy Bahama clothes wholesale for other stores to sell, but this would be a brick and mortar shop all their own.

[Nick Martell]

Now, of course, an entire retail store is way more expensive than a print ad in gq. But it's also an investment with the potential to become a profit center instead of a cost center.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Bob, Tony and Lucio find a space in Naples, Florida for their flagship Tommy Bahama store. It's not too far from Tony and Bob's beach homes where they had their very first Tommy brainstorm. And because Florida real estate is plentiful and cheap in the 1990s, they end up with way more acreage than they needed.

[Nick Martell]

These guys set out to find a 2,000 square foot space, but they end up with five times that. That's right, a 10,000 square foot cavern. What are they going to do with all this extra space, man?

[Jack Revici Kramer]

So then they ask themselves the one question that has never led them astray. The question that has informed every single thing about their brain.

[Nick Martell]

Wwtd. What would Tommy do?

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Bob, Tony and Lucio. They all pretend as if Tommy is a real guy. It's like they're method actors getting in character, channeling their inner Tommy. And while they can't literally call him up on the phone, they do have A pretty good feel for his tastes and his wishes. They'll let the brand make this decision.

[Nick Martell]

The brand decides, hey, if Tommy's gonna have a beach pad, then he's gonna want some home goods, like some rugs, some furniture, maybe an ottoman or two.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Why not refreshments too? Why not a juice bar? Put it right in the store. Let people get some vitamin C while they're shopping.

[Nick Martell]

Wait, scratch that. Forget vitamin C. People want vitamin B as in Bacardi. Why not put a tiki bar in the middle of the store? Sip on a daiquiri while you're waiting on that changing room. That means you aren't really waiting, are you? Man, even better.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

How about a daiquiri and a meal?

[Nick Martell]

I like it.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Why not have steel drums playing with umbrellas in the drinks and ceviche on Wednesdays? And if there's a wait for your table, just go spend 25 or 30 minutes shopping for bucket hats in the store.

[Nick Martell]

What would Tommy do? WWTD so in November 1995, just as the geese and the retirees are flying south for the winter, Tommy Bahama flings open the doors of its first ever retail store. That is way more than a store. And just three months later, order up some fish tacos because the restaurant is open too, baby. This is an insane retail concept at the time, like if the Olive Garden merged with a Macy's. But you know what? It works. And since restaurants tend to be open late, the retail side gets to keep late night hours too, which grows sales.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Even more crucially, this Tommy Bahamas restaurant is located on 3rd Street, Naples, which is the shopping and dining district that every vacationer goes to on Friday night. They've chosen the location where their precise target customers, people on a beach vacation, are both hungry and ready to shop.

[Nick Martell]

And now, Jack. I'm not sure how good Tommy is with math, but can we look at his numbers for a moment?

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Building the restaurant cost $1.2 million in 1995. That's less than their initial $2 million advertising budget.

[Nick Martell]

Not only that, Jack, but sales at this retail store slash restaurant hit another $2 million in year one alone. Much of which they credit to the restaurant pulling in new customers in the evenings.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

By 2001, sales from the Tommy Store Strats climbed to over $7 million annually. The restaurants are double dipping. They're the commercial that pays for itself.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, Tommy. He's as smart as he is fictional. But to hear what he does next, you're gonna want to sit down, Literally.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Imagine the sun drenched beach house from the start of our story, the one where Bob and Tony first sipped Mai tais, overcooked those burgers and dreamed up Tommy Bahama. Well, we're back. But now, 20 years later, our three co founders are raising glasses of champagne.

[Nick Martell]

It's 2008, and Bob Enfield, Tony Margolis and Lucio Dalla Gasparina have all decided to retire. They're finally going full Tommy. Nothing but deep tans, beachfront barbecues and shuffleboard arguments for these three.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

From now on, they actually wind up doing a bunch of charity work. But there's plenty of R and R in my ties too.

[Nick Martell]

Jack. It's been a great 16 year run for the brand and its parent company. By 2008, the company's revenues are close to half a billion dollars, thanks to strong sales and a very timely acquisition.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Because five years earlier in 2003, the apparel conglomerate Oxford Industries acquired Tommy Bahama for $325 million. The merger was friendly. In fact, Oxford is run by an old buddy of Tony's and the deal left all three co founders place to continue running the brand, only with fresh cash in their pockets from the sale.

[Nick Martell]

There's one little thing that they do change from the acquisition deal. It comes with a new Tommy Bahama logo. This is when they get the jaunty marlin that leaps into the air classic from palm tree to marlin. And from a few notes scratched out on a legal pad to $325 million. Not too shabby. But now let's leave Bob, Tony and Lucio to their fun runs in pickleball. And say hello to Tommy Bahamas new brand president, Doug Wood.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Doug has been at the company for seven years and he definitely understands the general Tommy vibe. With a wide smile, a shaved head and a confident outlook, he is ready to lead Tommy Bahama into the future.

[Nick Martell]

Unfortunately, that future starts with the 2008 Great Recession. The biggest financial crisis since the Great Depression had a pretty big impact on American spending and style. Like no more McMansion houses, America is downsizing.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Casual luxury gets tossed out.

[Nick Martell]

Especially when your company's tagline is literally make life one long weekend.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

That sounds totally out of touch. At this moment in the economy and.

[Nick Martell]

A recession, that just sounds like losing your job.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

So this is the year that sales of Tommy's resort wear don't just fall for the first time. They drop by a staggering 40% after the 2008 crisis. Its home city of Naples, Florida, dozens of new residential communities get abandoned, half built. As money dries up and real estate values plunge. The subprime mortgage bubble hits Tommy Bahama country hard.

[Nick Martell]

So our guy Doug's very first task, steer Tommy Bahama through this storm. And he decides to steer things in a counterintuitive direction. You see, most clothing brands know the economy's tough, money's tight, so they don't spend it. But Doug, he goes on a spending spree. More Tommy Bahama stores, home goods. More restaurants. More E Commerce. More tequila, baby, and more limes.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Here is Doug's bet. People might not be able to afford that Caribbean getaway because of the recession, but they might be able to pretend they're on vacation by getting a swordfish steak at the Tommy Bahama restaurant in Tampa.

[Nick Martell]

Turn that vacation into a staycation.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

We've said it before. Small, affordable luxuries actually fare pretty well during economic downturns because they replace bigger ticket spending. If you cancel a family trip to Disney, suddenly that day trip to Great Wolf Lodge feels really affordable in comparison. It's retail therapy on a small scale.

[Nick Martell]

And it is in the midst of this major pivot that one Tommy Bahama executive proposes a new product. One that might meet customers where they're at in this new moment of austerity. It's the ultimate product market fit because it fits your backside when you're lounging Jack. After seven years of us podcasting, it is finally that moment. Are you ready for this? It's time to talk about the beach chair.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Finally. The person behind the best selling beach chair in history actually keeps a pretty low profile. She has a slight build, sandy colored hair and a corporate sounding title. Chris Ann Furciato, Senior vice president of licensing for Tommy Bahama.

[Nick Martell]

Chrisann only has been at two companies in her entire career. One is Tommy Bahama and before that, Ralph Lauren. And that should tell you two things.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

She understands the importance of a strong brand identity. And number two, Chrisanne does not make moves casually.

[Nick Martell]

As the VP of licensing, it is Chrisann's job to ask, does our name belong on X product? Will this be a good partnership? Will it represent us well? She is not going to pursue just any product. Chrisan is about one thing and one thing only. Trust.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Consumers usually can't tell whether a brand is actually making something or just sticking their name on someone else's product in a licensing deal. That's the whole point of licensing. Your brand name on a product means you stand by it. So if the product breaks down after a single wash, that can destroy your reputation. Licensing is 110% about trust.

[Nick Martell]

The George Foreman grill worked great for George Foreman because it was A genuinely great grill. Air Jordan's iconic worked out great for Jordan. Not so much Haley Welch's hawk to a meme coin or Hulk Hogan's pasta mania restaurant. Got some quality control issues there.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

So, yeah, Chris Ann takes licensing very seriously. But she's got a proposal to put the Tommy Bahama brand on a product that she needs the president, Doug Wood to hear. She's gonna pitch a collab with the outdoor camping brand Shelter Logic for, you.

[Nick Martell]

Guessed it, a beach chair.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

So there she is in Doug woods corner office, feeling a little like a vacuum cleaner salesman pitching a skeptical housewife. But Chrisanne plows ahead anyway.

[Nick Martell]

This chair has five reclined positions, including totally flat for some sunbathing or propped upright for tailgating.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

The chair is lightweight to carry, too. Check out these backpack straps. But it also supports weight up to 300 pounds. No body shaming here for our heavier customers.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, and just feel this frame. It's so sturdy. Nothing like those flimsy beach chairs you might be picking up over on the Jersey shore.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

And it's got a cooler built in. It can fit an entire six pack. Or the side pocket can hold every essential item from your phone to a cold beverage to your buddy's phone.

[Nick Martell]

Forget about a vacuum cleaner salesman, Jack. Chrisanne is pitching this thing like a young Billy Mays.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

So after her best pitch for this beach chair, she leans forward to hear Doug's reply. And Doug says no. Specifically, he says, how does that fit with our brand?

[Nick Martell]

I'm sorry, Doug, how does that not fit in with your brand? I mean, Jack. Sixteen years into their journey, Tommy Bahama has moved beyond silk shirts. They got swimwear. They got home goods. They got an island themed restaurant. Restaurant where you can crush a mahi mahi and a mojito. How does a beach chair not totally mesh with this vibe?

[Jack Revici Kramer]

For Doug, the hang up isn't the chair itself. It's where he sees the chair being sold at a sporting goods store. Tommy Bahama is a casual luxury brand. The shirts are pure silk. The pants are linen. The duvets are 100% cotton. Doug just can't picture anything with their brand sitting next to poly blend tents and camping stoves.

[Nick Martell]

So Doug is basically seeing this camping gear company and thinking, this doesn't fit with Tommy. Like with partnerships, you're often going by feel. And for Doug, the feel's just off.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Even Tommy Bahama's founders fought about this back in the day. Apparently they had this epic argument once about whether the fictional Tommy would own a tie or not. They couldn't decide. And these are the guys who created Tommy.

[Nick Martell]

But I'm still team Chrisanne here. Jack. A beach chair just makes total sense for a beachy brand.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

And lucky for all of us, Chrisann sticks to her guns. When Doug Wood tells her that the beach chair is bad news, she replies with one sentence. It's a damn good chair.

[Nick Martell]

I like it.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

But Chrisann has another bit of ammo in this fight. She points out that the chair's canvas fabric isn't just fabric. It's a billboard. The back of the chair is ideal for Tommy Bahama's jaunty marlin logo and bright pattern. It's a way to differentiate. Differentiate from all the generic camping and beach chairs out there. And it's free ad space all across the beach for Tommy Bahama.

[Nick Martell]

This ain't just any chair. This is elevated beach lounging.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

And unlike with an actual billboard, this is a revenue driver, not a cost.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, sort of like Tommy Bahamas retail stores in a quaint suburban neighborhood.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

This has Doug thinking beach chairs that look like the classic Tommy Bahama shirts. That could be a good match. I can picture the hibiscus pattern already.

[Nick Martell]

Wwtd if Tommy Bahama were to sit in a beach chair, I guess this would be the beach chair.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

But Krisanna is still not done.

[Nick Martell]

No, she ain't.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

There's one more reason to say yes to this chair. And it's actually just one word, but it's a powerful word.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah. And that word is Costco.

[C]

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[Jack Revici Kramer]

Look, we know Costco is a big deal.

[Nick Martell]

We did do a whole episode on their Kirkland signature label. Man, I love that Costco episode.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

But here's how big Costco is. By 2009, Costco has more than 500 locations, 140,000 employees, and $70 billion in annual sales.

[Nick Martell]

Jack, could you sprinkle on some context to what this deal would mean for our Tommy Bahama buddies?

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Costco wants to stock their stores with the Tommy Bahama beach chair. And the first order of chairs alone would be a guaranteed $250,000 in cash right now.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, 250 grand could buy a lot of Arnold Palmer's man. In 2009, the Tommy Bahama guys are thinking, hey, in this economy, yeah, we'll take it.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Tommy is short on cash right now because remember, sales dropped big during the financial crisis.

[Nick Martell]

40%.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

That same financial crisis is sending more shoppers to discount clubs. So right now, Costco is the place to find customers.

[Nick Martell]

But Jack, even with these wonderful reasons you just listed to team up with Costco, the partnership does have some risk.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Costco's industrial metal shelves and the no frills displays, that's not exactly the retail environment Tommy Bomb is used to.

[Nick Martell]

It's a far cry from the chilled out, sun bleached wood aesthetics Tommy Bahama cultivates in their own stores.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

This is the exact brand mismatch Doug Wood had been trying to avoid. Tommy has been targeting the country club set, not the wholesale club set.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, 2,000 thread count sheets, not 2,000 count packs of diapers.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

So will Tommy Bahama beach chairs resonate for bargain hunting customers, or will it cheapen the Tommy Bahama brand hanging out next to tubs of tuna fish and cases of mayonnaise?

[Nick Martell]

Well, fortunately, besties, we actually have some data that might put Doug's mind to ease. We know from our Kirkland episode that Costco's average shopper has a higher median income than folks who shop at other wholesale clubs. So a casual luxury label that is not necessarily out of place in a Costco Aisle 6.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

We also know that Costco is extremely choosy about the products that occupy their shelf space. They don't want to overwhelm shoppers, so they limit the varieties of every product that they offer.

[Nick Martell]

In other words, they'll carry just one or two high quality beach chairs, shining a spotlight on whichever brand that they pick. Curation is queen at Costco, and all.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Of these elements come together to spell one thing for the Tommy Bahama beach chair. Cha Ching.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah. Sales of that chair, they take off immediately.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Tommy doesn't report their sales numbers for this very first beach season, but Tommy will come to sell about 2 million chairs every single year.

[Nick Martell]

In addition to the 2 million chairs that they sell, they also sell 700,000 beach umbrellas, and those are sold separately. At that point, Tommy Bahama is estimated to dominate 80% of the market for beach chairs over 30 bucks.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

That's approaching Google level dominance. Just in this past year, the New York Times wirecutter review service ranked the Tommy Bahama beach chair as best in category, and so did cnn. This is the rare case where the product is beloved. Both by the critics and by the mass public.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

The chair is both the best rated and the most popular.

[Nick Martell]

I mean, if this chair were a high school senior, it went Most likely to succeed and best hair.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

And Costco doesn't just carry this chair during beach season. They carry it all year round.

[Nick Martell]

It was actually this very fact that made us want to cover this chair in the first place.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Because Costco figures out people don't just need good chair for the beach, they need them for football season.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, and for grilling season and for hot chocolate season.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

No matter what time of the year their customers find reasons to buy this chair.

[Nick Martell]

Costco is thinking three steps ahead, man. The very act of sitting down for multiple hours outside, that is not limited to your two weeks of vacation seasonality.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Never heard of it.

[Nick Martell]

Tommy Bahama has since then gone on to sell 27 million chairs and counting.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

It is a key piece of to what is now a 32 year old lifestyle brand empire worth $1.7 billion, covering retail, wholesale, hospitality and licensing. In 2023, Tommy Bahama even opened up their own Palm Springs resort.

[Nick Martell]

What would Tommy do? Probably run his own hotel.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Because Tommy's a little jealous of Margaritaville.

[Nick Martell]

And he would probably also order the room service.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Can we just say it's a good thing? President Doug Wood had a sense of humor about doubting the beach chair early on. He talks about it in interviews, gives Chrisanne Ferciato full credit for her persistence.

[Nick Martell]

Hey, it's easy to laugh at yourself when you're laughing all the way to the bank.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

All right, Nick, I'm done evangelizing. I've converted you. You're part of the tribe now. Probably have a Tommy Bahama beach chair in your shopping cart right now.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, now. Now that I know you own seven of these things, what is your takeaway.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

On the Tommy Bahama beach chair?

[Nick Martell]

Not all founders startups wear hoodies. When you say the words startup founder, you often associate that with like a 20 year old Ivy League dropout in a hoodie and sandals. Your Zucks, your gates, your jobs. But the average age of a startup founder is actually 42. Because the qualities that factor into a startup success are things an experienced worker is more likely to have like industry expertise, relationships, connections.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Don't forget startup cash capital. A 40 year old is more likely than a 20 year old to have savings set aside to invest in a new company.

[Nick Martell]

Totally.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Mark Zuckerberg launched Facebook by moving fast and breaking things. But that's not on the business plan for most startups.

[Nick Martell]

For every company that Starts out of a college dorm. There's more that start because a few co workers decide to spin off an idea and do their own thing. Just like Bob, Tony, and Lucia. So get down with those middle aged founder vibes because not all founders wear hoodies. But, Jack, what about you? What's your takeaway on the Tommy Bahama beach chair?

[Jack Revici Kramer]

When it comes to crafting your brand identity, be a Hemingway. We all know what Tommy Bahama stands for. Relaxation, chill vibes, and grilling on the beach. But you only get to that strong brand identity by creating a touchstone that embodies those values.

[Nick Martell]

And Tommy Bahama's founders created that touchstone by crafting a. A fictional character right out of a novel. They literally brainstormed every detail of this fake dude's life, his preferences, taste choices, as if they were real. It's a really efficient way to build your brand guidelines without an 800 page slide deck.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

And if you're creating a fictional character to be your mascot, do what any good author does. Make that character three dimensional.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, the founders, they would ask, what would Tommy do? And that unlocked the all all sorts of unexpected brand integrations like restaurants and hotels.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

By contrast, Doug Wood almost missed the beach chair because he was focused on the narrow question of sporting goods stores instead of going back to Tom.

[Nick Martell]

Jack, it is hard to imagine the fictional Tommy Bahama not loving a brightly patterned beach chair with a pocket for a six pack. Either way, though, when it comes to crafting your brand identity, be a Hemingway. Before we go, it is time for our absolute favorite part of the show, the best facts yet.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

These are the hero stats, the facts, and the surprises we discovered in our research but couldn't fit into the story.

[Nick Martell]

All right, Jack, you already got beach chair access over here. Why don't you hit us off over there? You look very comfortable.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

I have a Nana who lives in Naples.

[Nick Martell]

She's wonderful. She's listening right now. Hey, Nana.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

She's the best, by the way. So, yes, I've been to the OG Tom O Bahama restaurant. Yeah, it's actually where I had my first grouper.

[Nick Martell]

We got to put a plaque up there.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Jack, here's another one for you. Tommy Bahama has been known to crash a movie set or two. Like this moment from Barb and star. Go to Vista Delmare. There are so many gorgeous men there. We're talking Tommy Bahama from head to toe.

[Nick Martell]

Tommy Bahama, wwtd. Jack, what would Tommy do?

[Jack Revici Kramer]

He would keep selling those beach chairs. And that, my friends, is why the Tommy Bahama beach Chair is the Best Idea Yet Coming up on the next episode of the Best Idea Yet. Dig up that old toy chest and find your Claude the Crab.

[Nick Martell]

Or maybe your mystic the Unicorn.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

How about your Batty the Bat?

[Nick Martell]

Because we're talking Beanie Babies. Hey, if you have a product you're obsessed with but you wish you knew the backstory, drop us a comment. We'll look into it for you.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Oh, and while you're at it, give us a rating and review. 5 stars. Helps us grow the show. Follow the Best Idea yet on the Wondery App, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of the Best Idea yet early and ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondery App or on Apple Podcasts.

[Nick Martell]

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey the best idea yet is a production of Wondery hosted by me, Nick Marshall.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

And me, Jack Crevici Kramer. Our senior producers are Matt Beagle and Chris Gautier.

[Nick Martell]

Peter Arconi is our additional senior producer.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Our senior managing producer is Nick Ryan and Taylor Sniffin is our managing producer.

[Nick Martell]

Our producer is H. Conley. Research by Brent Courson this episode was.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Written and produced by Katie Clark Gray.

[Nick Martell]

We used many sources in our research, including the 2001 feature a brand Is Born by Mike Hoffman for Inc. And.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

It'S not just you, Tommy Bahama Beach Chairs are Everywhere by Nathaniel Myerson for CNN Business Sound design and mixing by.

[Nick Martell]

CJ Drummler Fact checking by Brian Pognan.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

Music supervision by Scott Velazquez and Jolina Garcia for Freeson.

[Nick Martell]

Sing Our theme song is Got that Feeling Again by Blackalac. Executive producers for Nick and Jack Studios are me, Nick Martell and me, Jack Revici Kramer. Executive producers for Wondery are Dave Easton, Jenny Lauer, Beckman, Aaron O' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.

[D]

In the early hours of December 4, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

This assailant pulls out a weapon and starts firing at him.

[Nick Martell]

We're talking about the CEO of the biggest private health insurance corporation in the.

[D]

World and the suspect he has been.

[Nick Martell]

Identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione became one.

[D]

Of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history.

[Jack Revici Kramer]

I was targeted, premeditated.

[Nick Martell]

Admit to sow terror.

[D]

I'm Jesse Weber, host of Luigi Produced by Law and Crime and Twist. This is more than a true crime investigation. We explore a uniquely American moment that could change the country forever.

[Nick Martell]

He's awoken the people to a true issue you. Finally, maybe this would lead rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our healthcare system.

[D]

Listen to Law and Crime's Luigi exclusively on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery plus on the Wondery app, Spotify or Apple Podcasts.