🍦Ben & Jerry’s Phish Food: A Collab Born in an Old Gas Station | 18

Summary

Episode Summary: 🍦Ben & Jerry’s Phish Food: A Collab Born in an Old Gas Station | Episode 18

Released on February 11, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of The Best Idea Yet, hosts Nick Martell and Jack Crivici-Kramer delve into the fascinating origin story of one of Ben & Jerry’s most iconic flavors—Phish Food. This collaboration between the beloved ice cream brand and the legendary Vermont-based jam band Phish not only resulted in a delectable treat but also exemplified Ben & Jerry’s commitment to social impact and authentic partnerships.

Founding of Ben & Jerry’s

The story begins in the summer of 1978 in Burlington, Vermont, where friends Ben Cohen and Jerry Greenfield decided to pursue their entrepreneurial dreams by opening an ice cream shop. Armed with a $12,000 startup capital, they transformed a dilapidated old gas station into Ben & Jerry’s first scoop shop.

“Ben and Jerry’s very first scoop shop opened on May 5, 1978. They were selling cones for 52 cents a piece.” (05:59)

Despite their passion, the duo faced significant challenges. Their initial attempt to introduce bagels to the market was thwarted by unexpected competition, forcing them to pivot towards making gourmet ice cream.

Early Challenges and Branding Turnaround

Ben and Jerry’s early days were marked by long hours and financial struggles. With Ben suffering from anosmia, their flavor development had to be exceptionally bold to meet his discerning taste standards. This necessity led to the creation of adventurous flavors like Banana Rum and Heath Bar Crunch.

“Ben's low taste sensitivity means it takes intense flavors and textures to get his approval.” (11:03)

Their breakthrough came with a strategic rebranding initiative led by Lynn Severance, a graphic designer they hired to revamp their brand identity. Lynn introduced the distinctive blocky hand-lettered font, "Ben and Jerry's Chuck," which resonated with their target audience by appealing to the inner child.

“This is the iconic font you see in all the Ben and Jerry's products today.” (15:13)

Sustaining Growth and Maintaining Authenticity

By the end of their first year, Ben & Jerry’s had doubled their expected revenue, culminating in the creation of their beloved Free Cone Day—a celebratory event that continues to this day.

“Ben and Jerry are living the entrepreneurial dream.” (11:57)

However, growth introduced new challenges, including increased operational costs and the need for a more sustainable business model. This led to the establishment of their three-part mission: making fantastic ice cream, ensuring economic growth, and committing to social responsibility.

“Ben and Jerry's it was founded as ice cream for the people that doesn't have to stop just because they've grown big.” (26:01)

Collaboration with Phish and the Birth of Phish Food

Fast forward to 1995, Ben Cohen sought to create a marshmallow-flavored ice cream that would leave a lasting legacy. His idea was to collaborate with Phish, a band renowned for their integrity and commitment to authenticity, much like Ben & Jerry’s own values.

Initially met with rejection, Ben didn’t give up. Persistence paid off as he continued to align their shared values, leading to a successful partnership where Phish contributed to the flavor development and the initiative funded environmental causes through the Waterwheel Foundation.

“This marshmallow flavor. This is his Moby Dick.” (35:22)

The collaboration resulted in the creation of Phish Food—a multilayered ice cream featuring chocolate chunks, gooey marshmallow swirls, and fair-trade certified chocolate fudge fish. This flavor not only became a top seller but also raised over $9 million for environmental cleanup efforts by 2022.

“Fish food is a huge hit with fish fans, of course, but its popularity immediately breaks way beyond the tie dye circuit.” (37:22)

Conclusion and Business Insights

Ben & Jerry’s journey from a small Vermont ice cream shop to a billion-dollar brand is a testament to the power of complementary partnerships, authentic branding, and a steadfast commitment to social mission. The collaboration with Phish exemplifies how aligning with like-minded partners can create products that resonate deeply with both consumers and the community.

“The strongest foundation of a business is complimentary co-founders.” (38:57)

Key Takeaways:

• Authentic Partnerships: Aligning with partners who share your values can lead to successful and impactful collaborations.
• Branding Matters: Distinctive and authentic branding can set a company apart and build a loyal customer base.
• Social Responsibility: Integrating social missions into business operations can enhance brand reputation and contribute to meaningful causes.
• Persistence Pays Off: Overcoming initial setbacks through persistence and adaptability is crucial for long-term success.

Notable Quotes:

• “Ben and Jerry’s is living the entrepreneurial dream.” – Jack Crivici-Kramer (11:57)
• “This is the iconic font you see in all the Ben and Jerry's products today.” – Jack Crivici-Kramer (15:13)
• “Fish food is a huge hit with fish fans, of course, but its popularity immediately breaks way beyond the tie dye circuit.” – Nick Martell (37:22)
• “The strongest foundation of a business is complimentary co-founders.” – Jack Crivici-Kramer (38:57)

Conclusion

This episode of The Best Idea Yet not only narrates the creation of a beloved ice cream flavor but also provides deep business insights into branding, partnership, and corporate responsibility. Ben & Jerry’s story serves as an inspiring example for entrepreneurs aiming to build successful, values-driven businesses.

Transcript

[Nick Martell]

Wondery subscribers can listen to the best idea yet, early and ad free right now.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

[Nick Martell]

Well, is it true what they say?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

What do they say?

[Nick Martell]

That when you're born in Vermont, you come out in flannel. Is that true?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I was born and raised in Vermont. You came to Vermont voluntarily as an 18 year old.

[Nick Martell]

Jack, you told me your cousin was a moose. I had to come and see this. In real life.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

When it rains, it pours maple syrup.

[Nick Martell]

Vermont punches above its weight in terms of cultural impact. I would say brand value created per capita. I mean, Vermont is up there with the top economies of the world. Jack, I appreciate that.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

We got maple syrup, we got cheddar cheese, we invented the snowboard.

[Nick Martell]

True story.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And Bernie Sanders decided Vermont was going to be his home state.

[Nick Martell]

But Jack, on a scale of maple syrup to Subaru Outback, how Vermont would you say the topic of today's show is?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Oh, this is the hall of fame of Vermont famous people.

[Nick Martell]

The jam band Phish and Ben and Jerry's.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Nick, I've been waiting to do this episode about Ben and Jerry's with you for years. Literally. Ben and Jerry are the heroes of Hat Babe Jack.

[Nick Martell]

They are the hippies of chocolate chippies.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

They're the bros of cookie dough.

[Nick Martell]

But in the mid-1990s, those two Burlington legends, Ben and Jerry and Fish, teamed up to make a classic fish food only from Ben and Jerry's chocolate ice cream with gooey marshmallow, caramel swirl and fudge fish.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

When I'm eating fish food, I feel like an archaeologist. You're digging through layers of marshmallow and caramel, and then it's like, oh, a fish.

[Nick Martell]

It's a treasure hunt.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Each year, Ben and Jerry's publishes the top 10 flavors of the year by sales. And fish food is a mainstay, along with other legendary collabs with famous folks.

[Nick Martell]

Like Jimmy Fallon, the Tonight Dough and Stephen Colbert Americone Dream.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And of course, the late, great Jerry Garcia, whose first name conveniently rhymes with cherry.

[Nick Martell]

Love how that works.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But to tell you the story of fish food, we need to start in 1978 with Ben and Jerry themselves, best friends and best failures at the time.

[Nick Martell]

Two Long island buddies who moved up north together to try on some colder careers.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Last year, Ben and Jerry saw more than $1 billion in sales, beating Haagen Dazs by nearly 20%. Ben and Jerry sales were almost double. Breyers, five times talentes and six times blue bunnies.

[Nick Martell]

Stick that in your salt and straw.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Van Leeuwen Van Hooen. But if we step outside the ice cream aisle, Ben and Jerry's is doing more revenue than Bumble sweetgreen, Squarespace, or Planet Fitness.

[Nick Martell]

Ben and Jerry. They created the first unicorn ice cream brand, and they did it together as friends. They overcame leaky roofs, sleep deprivation, and a crisis of faith that almost had them walking away from the business altogether.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But this episode isn't just about the founders. It's about fish food. We'll find out how Ben and Jerry convinced four Vermont musicians who never sell out to buy in.

[Nick Martell]

So, besties, grab your strongest spoon because.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

You know it's gonna bend on you.

[Nick Martell]

Heat up the hot fudge and let's.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Dig in because Ben and Jerry's fish food is the best idea yet.

[Nick Martell]

From Wondery and T Boy. I'm Nick Martell.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And I'm Jack Crevici Kramer.

[Nick Martell]

And this is the best idea yet. The untold origin stories of the products you're obsessed with and the bold risk takers who brought them to life.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I got that feeling again Something familiar, but no, we got it coming to you. I got that feeling again they changed the game in one move. It's how they broke up. We'd like to thank our presenting sponsor, Lenovo.

[Nick Martell]

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[Jack Crevici Kramer]

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[Nick Martell]

Learn more about Lenovo Aura Edition AI [e-mail] Aura.

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[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's a balmy summer day in Burlington, Vermont. College kids sun themselves on picnic benches outside of the converted gas station across from City Hall Park. But this Old gas station doesn't sell unleaded. It sells ice cream.

[Nick Martell]

Inside the shop, an old man named Don plays a rebuilt player piano. And in exchange for all that entertainment, Don is getting free ice cream for life.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

At the counter is a 27 year old Jerry Greenfield, the shop's co founder and designated ice cream wizard. His latest flavor concoction, Oreo mint, is about to run out. He'll need to fire up his ice cream maker soon. An old fashioned model that uses rock salt and ice and a hand crank like it was the 18th, 1950s.

[Nick Martell]

We're in the summer of 1978 and Jerry, he's gonna need some counter help. So he looks around for his partner, his co founder, and his best friend, Ben Cohen.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Ben's in charge of their shop's non ice cream items. Crepes, brownies, and sometimes even soup. But Ben's not bent over a simmering pot on the wood burning stove. He's on top of the building right now trying to fix the darn roof again with new sheets of plastic.

[Nick Martell]

Jerry, he wants no part of that. So he's just hanging out, staying at the counter. And when the Oreo mint runs out, the customers, they're just gonna have to make do with vanilla.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Ben and Jerry grew up on Long island together, and they've been best friends forever. Even their birthdays are just five days apart. Their friendship was forged in seventh grade gym class when neither of them could run a mile in under seven minutes.

[Nick Martell]

Now, there is a complimentary element to this, despite their lack of jogging skills. You see, Ben is the idea man. Ben is spontaneous, he's passionate. He's always challenging them to try new things and throw some pecan into this recipe or that recipe.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Meanwhile, Jerry is the peacemaker. He's friendly and personable, but he's more cautious. He likes to set manageable goals that they can achieve.

[Nick Martell]

When they first decided to go into business together, Ben had been trying to make it as a potter, while Jerry had tried and failed to get into medical school. So together they figured, why don't we try entrepreneurship? But funny thing, neither of them knew anything about starting a business. Math, financials, numbers, please. They could not tell a balance sheet from a Birkenstock.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But after poring over some business textbooks, they eventually developed a strategy. Find a trendy food item and introduce it to a college town.

[Nick Martell]

All right, Jack, so this is the untapped markets angle. Bringing an existing product to a new market.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And their first idea. Bagels. Big, doughy bagels.

[Nick Martell]

That is, until they learned that the Equipment would cost about 40 grand. $40,000 just to make circular bread?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Out of the question. So instead, Ben And Jerry paid $5 to take a correspondence class. Basically a class by mail that Penn State University was offering on how to make ice cream. Jerry, in particular, was hooked with this class. He was entranced by the chemistry of the process of making ice cream. How eggs and sugar combos can change textures, and the mouthfeel. He'd concoct different versions of vanilla to get just the right balance. And he turned their shared apartment into America's test kitchen. Soon, Jerry was a certified whiz at making gourmet ice cream. And now they needed to find a college town that didn't have ice cream yet. So they were all set to open up in Saratoga Springs, New York, where Ben had actually gone to school. But by the time they were ready to become the ice cream monopoly in town, another boutique ice cream shop had just opened up right under their noses. It puts a kibosh on the whole plan. Their business got cut in half, and they hadn't even opened the store yet.

[Nick Martell]

So what did Ben and Jerry do, Jack, now that their entire business model of being the one and only ice.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Cream store totally fell apart, Picked another town.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, they moved towns. Ben and Jerry, they were really focused on that untapped markets angle.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

For the new destination, they looked at their criteria. College kids, dairy farms nearby, no ice cream competition, and close enough to drive because they couldn't afford a flight.

[Nick Martell]

Well, Jack, I'm checking out Google maps right now, and about 116 miles away, I'm looking at Burlington, Vermont.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Burlington, Vermont, a town with zero ice cream shops for reasons we'll get to later.

[Nick Martell]

So Ben and Jerry scraped together four grand each, Two of which were borrowed from Ben's dad, by the way, and a secured small bank loan for another 4,000 bucks. $12,000 of startup capital. That isn't a lot, even for the 1970s. So the only space that they could actually afford to rent was a dilapidated old gas station with rusty pumps, a sticky floor, and the faint stack of beef jerky.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It did have customer parking.

[Nick Martell]

Good point, Jack.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Ben and Jerry's very first scoop shop opened on May 5, 1978. They were selling cones for 52 cents a piece. They start lean and mean, doing most of the labor all by themselves. It's Jerry's job to create the actual flavor recipes using that old fashioned ice cream maker that you have to crank. And this is a little gross, Nick.

[Nick Martell]

I can handle, Jack.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But they even let customers wait. Lick the Mixing paddles after a batch is done, like my nana used to let me do. Burlington in the 1970s is the kind of place where a customer might bring in blackberries from their own home garden. And Jerry would mix them into the BlackBerry ice cream for the next day's batch.

[Nick Martell]

Well, Jack, speaking of flavors, at first these guys are just sticking to the basics. They got vanilla, they got chocolate. Nothing you didn't see in their original ice cream textbook. But soon they decide to kick it up a notch.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Since Jerry is the resident ice cream wizard, Ben is the resident taste tester. But plot twist. Ben has something called anosmia.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, we're going to need a definition of that, doctor.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Anosmia basically means he doesn't smell very well, which dulls his sense of taste too. And this medical issue ends up playing a starring role in the success of Ben and Jerry's.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, they turn their greatest weakness into their greatest strength.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Ben's low taste sensitivity means it takes intense flavors and textures to get his approval. He basically forces Jerry to take it up to an 11 because that's the only way he could taste it. Soon, Ben and Jerry are experimenting with wildly adventurous flavors like banana, rum, pina colada, or their first breakout hit, Heath Bar Crunch.

[Nick Martell]

These guys are going Severus Snape on this thing. They're experimenting with cold concoctions that the old guard would never touch.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Their first summer in business, Ben and Jerry average about $650 a day in sales. That's over $3,000 today, or on pace for about $1 million in annual sales. They're also beloved by their community.

[Nick Martell]

This is a life goal. Each is working alongside his best friend. They got their buddy as the piano player in the shop, and they're paying this dude in ice cream. And Ben and Jerry are living the entrepreneurial dream.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The only issue is, despite working 16 hour days, they're barely breaking even with that $650 a day in sales.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, and Jack, there is one other problem. Remember how Ben was up on that roof fixing the holes with the sheets of plastic? Well, one day the thermostat breaks the.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Heat from the wood stove and the chimney melts the plastic on the roof. Soon, the Burlington fire department is on its way. This whole ramshackle operation, it might all just be on the brink of collapse.

[Nick Martell]

Literally.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Thankfully, the scoop shop does not burn down. Ben and Jerry survived their first summer.

[Nick Martell]

But Jack, still they gotta seriously evaluate their choices.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

At this point, the real problem is negative cash flow. They're spending more than they're bringing In. It's as simple as that. Neither of them are any good at accounting, so they have basically no idea what's going on in their profits and loss statements.

[Nick Martell]

All they know is that the $12,000 they started with is now way less than $12,000 in food service.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Margins are already extremely narrow, and inventory costs, they add up fast. But Ben and Jerry are scooping so much ice cream onto every cone, they're basically losing money with every transaction. This is a kid's dream, but a CFO's nightmare.

[Nick Martell]

But despite their egregiously generous scoops of extremely costly ice cream, Ben and Jerry refuse to raise prices. In fact, Ben and Jerry actually go in the opposite direction. They start offering discounts when the temperature drops.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It turns out there's a reason why Burlington was an untapped market in ice cream. Vermont gets really cold. The average low temperature for February that year was minus 1 degree Fahrenheit. Nobody wants ice cream when it's that cold.

[Nick Martell]

Seasonality sells off. Seasonality kind of sucks. So Ben and Jerry try expanding their hot food menu instead. More soups, more crepes. They even try a lasagna. But nothing takes off. And if things keep up this way, then Ben and Jerry are not going to even make it to next summer.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So they make a promise to each other. If they can survive the first year, they're going to do something epic to celebrate. Ben and Jerry know they have to make some major off season changes. So they make a key Hire, an 8th generation Vermonter, Lynn Severance, who becomes their graphic designer.

[Nick Martell]

Lynn studied at Parsons School of Design, but now she's back in Burlington and she's willing to work for these guys for six, six bucks an hour.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Lynn looks at this dilapidated gas station shop and the two struggling entrepreneurs in front of her and tells them things have to change. Not the flavors or the prices or even that darn roof that won't stop leaking.

[Nick Martell]

Maybe just call a carpenter. Feels like we can put that one to bed.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

She says that to save the company, they need to change their branding. Lynn ends up transforming the look and feel of the Ben and Jerry's brand. Inside the shop, shop and out. She starts with the signage, inventing a blocky hand lettered font that she calls Ben and Jerry's Chuck.

[Nick Martell]

This is the iconic font you see in all the Ben and Jerry's products today. Lynn created all that lettering by hand back in 1979. But Jack, what's the strategy behind this funky new font?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

She wants to appeal to the customer's inner 5 year old. The same 5 year old who likes those big chunky bits of chocolate in their ice cream. And with this font, suddenly the brand and the product feel in sync. So Lynn gives Ben and Jerry's first scoop shop a new sign. She paints Ben and Jerry's Homemade in huge chunk lettering outside the building, so big it's basically visible from New Hampshire. And then she installs big plywood cutouts of ice cream and a coffee cup on the newly repaired roof. And these redesigns have a handmade feel that's more authentic to the Ben Jerry's quirky brand. But ironically, it's also a sign that they're getting a little more professional.

[Nick Martell]

Right? Like being intentional about this branding. It isn't about getting slicker and more polished. It's about getting more accurate and authentic to what your company is and what it stands for.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The branding helps Ben and Jerry's pull off a mini turnaround. And they survived that first winter. In fact, at the end of year one, they pulled in around $180,000, twice the revenue that they expected. So on their one year anniversary, they kick off an epic event that remains a sacred Ben and Jerry's holiday, still to this day. Free Cone Day.

[Nick Martell]

The legendary Ben and Jerry's Free cone day. This is how it was born. Free ice cream to anyone who shows up. You got a pulse, you're getting a pint.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This is the epic celebration they promised each other they would do if they survived the first year.

[Nick Martell]

I mean, Jack, Ben and Jerry's launched this epic annual promotion with zero calculation of what it's going to cost them or the ROI on the ice cream giveaway. It is an authentic gesture of appreciation for their customers. And you know what? They go for it.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It is a great kickoff event for year two, when sales revenue grows by 25%. Just one problem. Their costs keep going up too. Ben and Jerry are working seven days a week and they're still just breaking even. If they want to make it to year three, they're going to need more cushions, more seasonal stability, and more than just a new font. They're going to need something besides their one scoop shop to keep them afloat. This episode is presented by Lenovo yetis.

[Nick Martell]

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[Jack Crevici Kramer]

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[Jack Crevici Kramer]

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[Nick Martell]

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[Jack Crevici Kramer]

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[Jack Crevici Kramer]

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[Nick Martell]

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[Jack Crevici Kramer]

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[Jack Crevici Kramer]

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[Nick Martell]

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[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's a sweltering late summer day. It may be negative one in February, but it's 101 in the summer. Even the mosquitoes are too lethargic to bite. Inside the cab of his rickety ice cream truck, Ben Cohen grips the steering wheel. No power steering in this rig. He's got to crank that thing to turn it. So Ben is spitzing as he tries to make a left turn off Route 7.

[Nick Martell]

You see Ben, he's driven 20 miles from his last delivery. He's got 15 miles to the next one, and it is a long way to go just to sell five gallons of ice cream.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's September 1979, and a lot has happened in the four months since free Conde. Ben and Jerry have added a wholesale side to their business, selling their ice cream to restaurants in big tubs. This means increasing production, which means more spending. So they take out a new business loan, seven times bigger than the last one, to open a manufacturing facility five blocks down the road from the scoop shop.

[Nick Martell]

And Jerry, he's overseeing ice cream production while Ben is driving around Vermont, passing tons of little towns with mom and pop grocery stores all along the way. But unfortunately, no one there needs a whole vat of their ice cream product. If only he could offer them something a little more practical that they could actually use.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Suddenly, Ben has a thought so clear he almost drives off the road. A pint of ice cream. It fits in one hand. It's the perfect size for the small grocery stores along his sales route.

[Nick Martell]

You're going through a breakup. Going through a vat of ice cream could kill you. Going through a pint. Yeah, that's satisfying. You'll live through it.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Now, if you're saying that seems kind of obvious. Ben and Jer. Well, we're gonna have to dish out some context. Pint packages of ice cream were pretty uncommon in 1979. Back then, specialty ice cream made up just 11% of the consumer market. Instead, the frozen food aisles mostly carried big half gallon cartons of ice cream like Breyers, Seal Test, and Borden. These aren't top shelf brands. By contrast, Ben and Jerry's is a top shelf brand.

[Nick Martell]

This is primo stuff. It costs more to make.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Well, if Ben and Jerry's is gonna enter the catheter consumer space, they'll have to communicate why their pint of New York chocolate chunk cost more than that gallon of Neapolitan. And once again, their designer, Lynn Severance, is critical to this effort.

[Nick Martell]

They don't have a huge budget and the color printing gets expensive. So Lynn creates a pint design that's simply black, white and red. That's it.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And this is where she gets really clever. She keeps the base of each pint the same and only varies the lids by flavor only. Customizing one part of the two part pint container cuts down on printing costs.

[Nick Martell]

And Jack, can we talk about the lids? Because the lids hold another key to Ben and Jerry's branding brilliance.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

If you're trying to convince some customer standing in Auntie Faye's general store why they should buy the most expensive ice cream in the store, then you need a personal touch to seal the deal. So Lynn gets an idea to promote who Ben and Jerry are and what they stand for by putting their faces on the lid of every pint. That calls for just two words. Nick, photo shoot.

[Nick Martell]

Ben wears his favorite yellow pork pie hat and rocks a full untrimmed beard. Jerry has got a polo shirt left open. A lot of chest hair, by the way. Forest of chest hair. And neither of these guys have had a haircut since the 4th. The Ford administration.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

They have the same eyeglasses too, like those big Walter white glasses.

[Nick Martell]

By the time the photographer gets that perfect shot, the ice cream is dripping down the cone that Ben's holding. And this photo, the drippy ice cream photo, it'll go on every pint of Ben and Jerry's from now on.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The picture wasn't perfect, but neither is life. And that kind of message rings true to the customers.

[Nick Martell]

You got the co founders names and their faces right on the package. You can't help but think, hey, these guys, they wouldn't sell me anything they don't believe in. It screams authenticity.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And to drive the point home, Ben and Jerry write a little note to their customers on the pint. Nick, do a Little reading for us.

[Nick Martell]

This carton contains some of the finest ice cream available anywhere we know because we're the guys who make it. We start with lots of fresh Vermont cream and the finest flavorings available. We never use any fillers or artificial ingredients of any kind. With our special modified equipment, we stir less air into the ice cream, creating a denser, richer, creamier product of uncompromisingly high quality. It costs more, and it's worth it.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Signed Ben and Jerry.

[Nick Martell]

It's not a statement of purpose. It's a declaration of deliciousness.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And that strategy works. The pivot to pints transforms Ben and Jerry's as a business. Their sales accounts jump from 35 clients to 200 clients. And by year's end, the business shows its very first annual profit, around $33,000. In 1981, their shop gets some incredible PR. Ben and Jerry's is mentioned in the first sentence of a splashy Time magazine cover story about America's love affair with ice cream. The writer calls Ben and Jerry's the best ice cream in the world.

[Nick Martell]

Okay, this one's a little out of context. Time is saying that everyone has their favorite, and Ben and Jerry's is just one of many. But, hey, it still looks good in an ad. Ben and Jerry's risky launch of premium pints has paid off in a big way.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But in a shocking twist, despite all that positive momentum, one of them is about to walk away from the business entirely. It's 1982. The TV show Cheers debuts on NBC. Olivia Newton John's Physical is top of the music charts, and Ben and Jerry's is approaching their very first million dollars in sales.

[Nick Martell]

Jack. I only know one of those three references, but I like all three of them.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Ben Cohen should be on top of the world. But gloomy thoughts weigh him down as he pulls his rickety truck up to Maurice's place.

[Nick Martell]

Maurice is a customer. We actually don't know his last name or the name of the restaurant he owns. But let's just picture a wise old man with suspenders who could school you in a game of checkers.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

When Ben delivers Maurice's ice cream water, he also delivers some bad news. Ben and Jerry are selling the company record scratch. In fact, Jerry's already gone. He moved to Arizona with this lady and sold all but 10% of his shares back to the company.

[Nick Martell]

Jack, pause the pod. This is not a drill. Jerry left Ben and Jerry's in 1982.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But it's not because Ben and Jerry had a fight over the pretzel to Peanut Ratio in the chubby hubby.

[Nick Martell]

No.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Ben and Jerry were burnt out. They'd been working 80 hour weeks for five years. And as the company grows, they have to become grownups. Hello, all hands meetings and HR seminars. It's the kind of stuff they didn't want to do. To Ben and Jerry's horror, they've built a corporation which to them feels like selling out.

[Nick Martell]

What good is making money if it's only to become the kind of corporate overlord you might have picketed against as a student. Honestly, what Ben really wants is to be back on the roof fixing that leak while Jerry is yelling out the ingredient list below and their buddy is jamming on that piano.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So Ben tries to explain this to Maurice. He says, you know what big business does, Maurice? It's harmful to the environment. It's harmful to employees. It makes the world worse. What else can we do?

[Nick Martell]

But then that old timer, he says, ben, if there's something you don't like about business, why don't you just do it different?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And once again, Ben has an epiphany that probably should have been obvious. Your business doesn't have to do harm if you're the one making the business decisions. Why can't we run this corporation differently for good?

[Nick Martell]

Ben credits this real conversation as reframing his entire attitude and his entrepreneurial purpose. Ben and Jerry's it was founded as ice cream for the people that doesn't have to stop just because they've grown big.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Bigger companies arguably have more ability to affect change if they make real commitments. So at the last minute, Ben pulls out of the sale and he gets Jerry on the phone right away to tell him about this epiphany he's had.

[Nick Martell]

Jerry's out in Arizona. So this is going to be a long distance call, but that's okay because they start coming up with what will become Ben and Jerry's three part mission for running a business they can be proud of. There's the product mission to make fantastic ice cream.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

There's their economic mission to make money.

[Nick Martell]

So that the company can grow.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And there's the social mission to make.

[Nick Martell]

The world a better place. And the idea of having a social mission for a for profit company. This is highly unusual at the time. At this point, these guys are earning $1 million in annual revenue, but they also kind of want to save the world too.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Here's what this looks like. In the beginning, they put a 5 to 1 cap on executive salaries, meaning their highest paid employee can make no more than five times as much as the lowest paid employee.

[Nick Martell]

They commit to donating 10% of their profits to progressive social causes, which will come to include everything from refugee rights to climate justice campaign finance reform.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And they commit to ethical sourcing of their ingredients, those cashews and Rainforest Crunch. They're sourced from the actual rainforest, incentivizing its preservation.

[Nick Martell]

Their chocolate fudge brownie flavor. It uses brownies made by a company employing formerly incarcerated people.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But get ready for the best example of all in 1984, when Ben and Jerry's needs to raise capital to finance a bigger factory. Instead of taking funding from private equity equity, they do their first public stock offering and they make it available only to residents of the state of Vermont.

[Nick Martell]

They do A, B and J ipo.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And they get so much demand in their stock that they have to turn people away.

[Nick Martell]

I mean, Goldman Sachs would be drooling.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

For that kind of IPO demand without compromising their values. Ben and Jerry have just raised the funds for their new factory in Waterbury.

[Nick Martell]

Which doubles as a tourist attraction today.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And Vermonters aren't just stakeholders. They they're now shareholders.

[Nick Martell]

Plus, this new factory is going to help them scale their retail business nationally.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Ben and Jerry's wholesale business had been making about 1 1/2 million dollars annually in 1983. Just two years later, that number is $4 million. It's a national brand with placement in grocery stores across the country.

[Nick Martell]

They're finally growing in a way that's sustainable and that they can feel good about. By 1985, Jerry and his wife move back to Vermont from Arizona, and the best friends are united together again under a roof that no longer leaks.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

By 1994, they go international.

[Nick Martell]

And by 2021, Ben and Jerry's annual revenue hits $1 billion.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But Yetis, we didn't just promise you the story of Ben and Jerry's. We promised you fish food. And fish food is what you're about to get.

[Nick Martell]

So, Jack, trigger warning if you're lactose intolerant. Everyone else, grab some more napkins. Things are about to get messy.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Let's Transport ourselves to 1995. Disney's Pocahontas is in theaters, OJ is on trial, and seven year old me just discovered the joy of Gap overall. And over at Ben and Jerry's, Ben Cohen is planning what might be the final flavor of his career.

[Nick Martell]

Don't worry, besties. Ben's okay. He's actually just stepped down as CEO and he's still the chair of the Ben and Jerry's board of directors.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And Jerry is vice chair. But Neither is running the day to day operations, which was never the strong suit anyway.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, like Frank from finance, he still ain't happy about free code.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Instead, they're spending more time honing the company's social mission and helping run the company's nonprofit arm, the Ben and Jerry's Foundation.

[Nick Martell]

But still, Ben has this nagging feeling deep inside of him. This sense that he's left one huge, important project undone, unfinished. One mountain still left to climb. Ben and Jerry's does not have a truly great marshmallow ice cream. They just don't have one. Jack.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Ben wants a truly gooey, marshmallowy flavor. Ben also wants to create something that'll have a positive social impact. Tall order here. But he wants the world's most flavorful and most ethical marshmallow ice cream. So he cast his attention to his neighbors right there in Burlington, Vermont.

[Nick Martell]

Jack, where exactly does Ben live?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

On the other side of the woods from a gold and platinum selling band. We're talking about the homegrown Vermont jam band dominating stoner kid mixtapes and college radio in the 1990s. Phish.

[Nick Martell]

The band's concerts, they go on so long, they're probably still playing one right now.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Fish has a devoted following in the mold of the Grateful Dead. People literally follow their tours from city to city, bringing their tents and devil sticks if necessary. So Ben gets the idea he might want to team up with Fish for his last flavor design.

[Nick Martell]

After all, Cherry Garcia is Ben and Jerry's tribute to the dead, and it's a perpetual bestseller. But there is one catch. You see, Fish, they are very serious about the integrity of their brand. This is the 1990s. Authenticity is in. Commercialism is lame. Selling out is not cool.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Twelve years into their career, Fish hasn't endorsed a single product or licensed their name to anyone yet.

[Nick Martell]

I mean, they wouldn't even do a collab with Fisherman's Friend or Long John Silver's or Bass Pro Shop. Think of all the aquatic possibilities for these guys.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Well, even though Fish is probably going to reject him, Ben approaches the band anyway. He wants this last flavor to be meaningful. He wants to do something that will have a social impact. Maybe some of the proceeds can benefit a cause.

[Nick Martell]

This marshmallow flavor. This is his Moby Dick. So with all of this at stake, Fish considers Ben's proposal to collaborate on a flavor. And they say, no.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Nick, I just snapped my spoon. This suspense is stressing me out.

[Nick Martell]

Sounds like I gotta get you another spoon, but I'll get you another pint too.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

One sec.

[Nick Martell]

I Got you, Nick.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This episode is sponsored by Abbott. Let's talk about a small thing that can make a big difference if you have diabetes. The Freestyle Libre 3 sensor. It's amazing how the sensor gives you real time glucose readings so you can see the impact of every meal and every activity. To make better choices, the Freestyle Libre 3 Plus sensor can help you live life with diabetes on your terms. You can try it free at FreestyleLibre US offer available for people who qualify. Visit MyFreestyle US to see all terms and conditions. Certain exclusions apply for prescription only safety info found @freestylelibre us. So when we left off the jam band, Fish had turned down Ben's offer to collab on an ice cream. Who turns down Ben and Jerry's?

[Nick Martell]

Ben and Jerry, our lines are open. We'll talk anytime. Have your people call our people now, Jack, they need this collab. They need something to pull off this marshmallow ice cream.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But Fish isn't interested.

[Nick Martell]

They better start working on counting Crow's puns or like, I don't know, maybe a Spice Girls sorbet. Because Fish is out.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But Ben and Jerry don't give up. They keep the lines of communication open, which is a pretty good business lesson in persistence.

[Nick Martell]

Now, when it comes to pitching new partners, it can take some time to find common ground. But business relationships, they're honestly a lot like romantic relationship. There's the courting phase, there's the trust phase. You know, you got a peacock a little bit and sometimes, you know, you got to chill out.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And a great place to start with a business courtship is to connect on shared values, which is what Ben Cohen does with Fish. They keep talking as the calendar flips to 1996. They're neighbors, after all. And Fish finally admits that they've been struggling to become more intentional with the band's charitable giving.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, they've given to a bunch of charities supporting environmental efforts and Vermont's youth.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But Fish's giving has also been a bit random. They haven't really built a legacy. Meanwhile, Ben and Jerry's now have years of experience running a values led company and a charitable foundation. Eventually, Ben and Jerry win the band over. The two even show up on stage for a hilariously off key guest performance at a Fish concert.

[Nick Martell]

Let's get Ben and Jerry out here to help us out with this one here. Somebody's jumping. Okay, so it's a Fish concert. So that went on for 14 more hours. Ben and Jerry, they probably should have stuck to ice cream.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Yeah, that's why you and I have a rule. No singing on the pod. Never turns out well.

[Nick Martell]

You're welcome.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Yetis being willing to humiliate themselves on stage, it strikes the right note with Fish. And so the flavor collaboration begins. And for Fish, it's the first and only time they've ever lent their name to a product.

[Nick Martell]

Meanwhile, for our buddies Ben and Jerry, this is a super rare case in which they give outside input into their flavor making, which is sacred for these guys. Both sides, they're making a concession in order for the relationship to work.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The fish food recipe unfolds like a 17 minute fish jam. Multilayered and complex, it starts with a base of creamy chocolate ice cream made with cage free eggs. Then a dash of fresh vanilla.

[Nick Martell]

Add a thick, gooey marshmallow swirl and fair trade certified chocolate fudge fish, gluten free. And that is fish food.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

They pass samples back and forth from the supplier to Ben and Jerry's HQ to the band, and they hone in on the recipe.

[Nick Martell]

In fact, one round of feedback said literally add exactly 10 more fudge fish per pint.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's actually the members of Fish themselves that come up with the finishing touch. A caramel swirl that ties the whole thing together, like a harmony tying together a saw.

[Nick Martell]

This flavor, it is Ben and Jerry's magnum opus, dare we say Jack? This is their rift.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Rift, by the way, is one of Fish's big songs. If you don't have an obsessive fish.

[Nick Martell]

Fan in your life, if you know, you know. But finishing the flavor, that's like only part of the deal, right, Jack?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Fish also creates a nonprofit called the Waterwheel foundation. And its mission is to help clean up Vermont's Lake Champlain. The foundation is to be funded by the royalties that they received from Fish Food Ice Cream.

[Nick Martell]

This isn't selling out, Jack. This is buying in. And it's buying in to a good cause.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

On March 18, 1997, Ben's actual birthday, and four days after Jerry's birthday, they put on a sold out concert in Burlington. This was a launch party for both Waterwheel and Fish Food Ice Cream. It's a day that goes down in Vermont history lore.

[Nick Martell]

And because Ben and Jerry love just giving stuff out for free, every concert goer leaves with their own free sample of the new flavor. Some lucky folks, they're even winning full pints. And Ben and Jerry, they themselves introduced the entire show.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Fish food is a huge hit with fish fans, of course, but its popularity immediately breaks way beyond the tie dye circuit. The flavor rockets into the top 10 list of flavors by popularity, which is tallied by Ben and Jerry's itself. And you'll still find fish food in that top 10 list.

[Nick Martell]

Today, on the flavor's 25th anniversary. In 2022, Waterwheel announced they'd raised over $9 million for the cleanup of Lake Champlain and other environmental causes. Not too shabby for a pint of marshmallow ice cream.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So that's the end of the fish food story. But it's not the end of Ben and Jerry's. The two co founders and lifelong best friends remained on the company's board until it was sold to Unilever in the year 2000 for a brain freezing $326 million.

[Nick Martell]

Even though they sold the company, Ben and Jerry managed to structure a deal that is one of the wildest things Jack and I have ever seen.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Usually, when one company acquires another, the acquiring company gets to set the rules.

[Nick Martell]

Okay, but that's not the case for our buddies Ben and Jerry, is it?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

No, it's not. The deal established a bunch board that gives Ben and Jerry oversight on everything from setting livable wages to overseeing the social mission to maintaining the recipes as they originally intended.

[Nick Martell]

Ben and Jerry, they sold for 326 million. But they didn't lose control of their baby. So, Jack, now that we've heard the story of Ben and Jerry's fish food, the Vermont I est of all collabs, what is your takeaway?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The strongest foundation of a business is complimentary co founders. Co foundership is a beautiful thing. Nick and I have been running this company for 12 years together. And the reason it's so strong is that we trust each other and we have fun together. But also, we're not identical. We have different strengths that happen to overlap with the other just the right amount. Like two circles in a Venn diagram.

[Nick Martell]

We were also freshman year roommates, and that's where our trust began. When people know each other, when they're friends first, it really sets you up for success as co founders later in life.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That's right, Nick. Complimentary co founders. All right, Nick, it's your turn. What's your takeaway on Ben and Jerry's and fish food?

[Nick Martell]

Just make it up. Make it up. Remember Ben and Jerry? They basically had no idea what they were doing when it came to, you know, running an actual business, but they still became a billion dollar company, and more importantly, one of the most successful Vermont exports of all time.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Yeah, and we exp snowboards in maple syrup, so that's saying something.

[Nick Martell]

Well, they didn't just let that lack of knowledge or expertise hold them back.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

They just made it up.

[Nick Martell]

This story today was actually extremely personal for Jack and me for a whole bunch of reasons, beginning with the fact that we met in the state of Vermont. But actually, one of Jack's my favorite interviews is with Ben and Jerry. It was on another great wondery podcast called How I Built this with Guy Ross. And when Ben and Jerry are describing how they built out their business plan to get that first bank loan, they admit something fascinating. When they ran the numbers, they said they were projected to lose money, so instead they changed the numbers. They just made the numbers up.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Of course, there's a limit on how and what you can make up. Like don't lie or commit fraud. Of course.

[Nick Martell]

Good point, Jack.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

For forward looking financial projections, you have a lot of freedom to get the bankers to finance you. You have to show confidence, especially for predicted sales numbers. The best in the business just make it up.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, we both worked in finance and we can tell you when it comes to financials. Yeah, you change some things around in the Excel sheet and you just make up the projections.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's refreshing to know that these incredibly successful business people started with a situation where they were so clueless, they just made it up. And guess what? It worked out. And the bankers got their money back too. Okay, before we go, it's time for our favorite part of the show. The best facts yet.

[Nick Martell]

The tidbits and factoids that we just couldn't fit into the show. But we couldn't leave you without.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Nick, something I haven't told you. Remember the Ben and Jerry's ipo, which only Vermonters could participate in? Oh, totally.

[Nick Martell]

The ice cream ipo.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I told my parents about this last weekend. They got in on that IPO. They were early investors. $3,000 in Ben and Jerry's, which blew up to like 18 grand. And that was the down payment on the house that I grew up in.

[Nick Martell]

So you grew up on B and J Money?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Man, it was Chunky Monkey lucky money. And my parents didn't tell me until this past weekend.

[Nick Martell]

I can't believe they didn't have the stock certificate framed up on a plaque downstairs, man.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

All right, this one's gonna shock you. Nick, did you know that the marshmallow in fish food isn't marshmallow? It's actually marshmallow flavored nougat.

[Nick Martell]

Okay, now I feel like we need a fact check midway through our story.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Jack, fish food may be an all star flavor, but if you visit the Ben and Jerry's factory in Waterbury, Vermont. You can see all the flavors that that didn't quite make it in the Ben and Jerry's flavor graveyard.

[Nick Martell]

You can see the tombstones dedicated to the dearly de pinted Jack. A moment of silence for the dastardly mash, the Georgia peach. And who could forget 2008's economic crunch?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Yeah, that came out too soon, man.

[Nick Martell]

But Jack, how they did not sprinkle maple syrup on this pint for fish, I have no idea.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Come to think of it, I can't think of any Ben and Jerry's flavors that have maple syrup. What the heck?

[Nick Martell]

Oh, and finally, did you know Ben and Jerry invented cookie dough ice cream?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's true. Back when they carried both baked goods and homemade ice cream in their scoop shop, they got the idea to toss some of their unbaked dough into the ice cream. And there you go. Cookie dough ice cream.

[Nick Martell]

Jerry credits this as the innovation that really put Ben and Jerry's on the map. Yeah, there was the slight risk of salmonella, but just make it up.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And that, my friends, is why Ben and Jerry's fish food is the Best Idea Yet. Coming up on the next episode of the Best Idea Yet. It became the Silicon Valley uniform, and it's made by a corporation that's so ethical, it makes Ben and Jerry's look like ExxonMobil.

[Nick Martell]

The next episode of the Best Idea yet is the Patagonia Fleece.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Follow the Best Idea yet on the Wondery App, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of the Best Idea yet early and ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondery App or on Apple Podcasts.

[Nick Martell]

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey. The best idea yet is a production of Wondery hosted by me, Nick Martell.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And me, Jack Crevici Kramer.

[Nick Martell]

And hey, if you have a product you're obsessed with but you wish you knew the backstory, drop us a comment. We'll look into it for you. Oh, and don't forget to rate and review the podcast.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Our senior producers are Matt Beagle and Chris Gautier.

[Nick Martell]

Peter A.R. cooney is our additional senior producer.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Our senior managing producer is Nick Ryan. And Taylor Sniffin is our managing producer.

[Nick Martell]

Our associate producer and researcher is H. Conley.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This episode was written and produced by Katie Clark Gray.

[Nick Martell]

We use many sources in our our research, including Ben and Jerry's the Inside Scoop. How Two Real Guys Built a Business with a Social Conscience and a Sense of Humor by Fred Chico Lager and.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Ben and Jerry's Double Dip by Ben Cohen and Jerry Greenfield. Sound design and mixing by CJ Drummler.

[Nick Martell]

Fact checking by Molly Artwick.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Music supervision by Scott Velazquez and Jolina Garcia for Freeson Sync.

[Nick Martell]

Our theme song is Got that Feeling Again by Black Alack. Executive producers for Nick and Jack Studios are me, Nick Martell and me, Jack Revici Kramer. Executive producers for Wondery are Dave Easton, Jenny lauer, Beckman, Aaron O'Flaherty and Marshall Louie.

[D]

What's up everybody? It's Jason Kelce and I'm here with my slightly famous little brother, Travis, AKA Big Yeti Kelsey.

[Nick Martell]

Ladies and gentlemen, gentlemen, boys and girls, we're here to bring you a next level entertainment experience with our show New Heights, where the lumbaby reigns supreme.

[D]

We're covering all the hardest hitting topics in order of importance. UFO sightings, the ideal PB&J combo, and Trav becoming a big time acting star.

[Nick Martell]

Big time is a big stretch. We've got can't miss a list interviews though.

[D]

That's right. And of course, next level, access to life inside the NFL. NFL and in the booth. Just because I retired doesn't mean I'm out of the game.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, I mean the the old dad shoes suggested otherwise, but those are the I'm out the game shoes right there.

[D]

Listen to Watch New Heights wherever you get your podcast. And if you want to listen to us first without any interruptions and get bonus content, join 1.3plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify.