🥤Dr Pepper: The Mystery & Magic of America’s #2 Soda | 37

Summary

Episode Summary: 🥤Dr Pepper: The Mystery & Magic of America’s #2 Soda | 37

Hosts: Nick Martell & Jack Crivici-Kramer
Release Date: June 24, 2025
Podcast: The Best Idea Yet by Wondery

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Introduction to Dr. Pepper's Unique Journey

In this captivating episode of The Best Idea Yet, hosts Nick Martell and Jack Crivici-Kramer delve deep into the enigmatic history of Dr. Pepper, America's second most popular soda. From its obscure beginnings in a Texas drugstore to its remarkable rise surpassing Pepsi, the episode uncovers the untold stories and bold strategies that propelled Dr. Pepper into the national spotlight.

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Origins: The Birth of a Unique Flavor

The story begins in 1885 at Morrison's Corner Drugstore in Waco, Texas. Charles Alderton, a young pharmacist with a passion for flavor experimentation, sought to create a soda that would revive the dwindling interest in traditional flavors like lemon, lime, and vanilla.

Nick Martell [04:07]: "Charles isn't just tweaking old recipes. He's aiming to create something entirely new. Something that will cause a town-wide taste sensation."

After numerous trials, Alderton concocted a blend of 23 different flavors, resulting in the first-ever Dr. Pepper. Unlike its contemporaries, Dr. Pepper didn't rely on stimulants like caffeine or cocaine, setting it apart in a market saturated with medicinal sodas.

Jack Crivici-Kramer [09:50]: "To this day, we do not know. It has never been revealed publicly what the 23 ingredients of Dr. Pepper are."

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Early Challenges and Strategic Partnerships

Initially, Dr. Pepper remained a regional favorite in Texas for its first 80 years. Recognition began to spread in the 1960s, primarily due to strategic marketing moves that broke conventional marketing rules.

Charles Alderton eventually left Morrison's Corner, selling the secret formula to Wade Morrison, the drugstore owner. As demand surged, Wade partnered with Robert Lazenby, a seasoned soda veteran with a robust bottling plant, to scale production.

Nick Martell [12:28]: "He needs to bring in someone who can help him scale this 23 flavor phenomenon or risk losing all his momentum."

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National Expansion: Leveraging the World's Fair

A pivotal moment in Dr. Pepper's history was its participation in the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair, an event that introduced groundbreaking foods like the ice cream cone and cotton candy. Here, Dr. Pepper was showcased to nearly 20 million visitors, significantly boosting its national presence despite its unique and hard-to-describe taste.

Nick Martell [16:21]: "Some people love it, some people hate it. But even if it only gets five stars from a small percentage of those 20 million visitors, it still represents a lot of people from around the country."

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Marketing Genius: Embracing Mystery and Individuality

Recognizing the challenge of marketing an indescribable flavor, Robert Lazenby turned Dr. Pepper's ambiguity into a strength. Instead of attempting to define its taste, the brand embraced its mystery, crafting slogans that emphasized how the drink made consumers feel rather than what it tasted like.

Jack Crivici-Kramer [18:05]: "Instead of hiding this fact, Lazenby flips the script. Instead of trying to define what it is, he leans into the mystery."

This unconventional approach resonated with consumers, positioning Dr. Pepper as a symbol of individuality and uniqueness. The marketing campaigns in the 1970s transformed Dr. Pepper into a rebellious choice, distancing it from the health tonic image and cementing its place in popular culture.

Nick Martell [27:43]: "Throughout all of this, Dr. Pepper has leaned into being different. Never tried to be a cola and never tried to fit in. It just doubled down on its own weird, spicy little outsider identity for over a century."

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Coca-Cola's Counterattack: The Knockoff Struggle

As Dr. Pepper gained national traction, Coca-Cola perceived it as a growing threat. In response, Coca-Cola attempted to undermine Dr. Pepper by introducing knockoffs like Peppo and Mr. Pibb, aiming to dilute Dr. Pepper's unique market position. However, these attempts backfired, as consumers saw through the inauthentic imitators, further boosting Dr. Pepper's allure.

Jack Crivici-Kramer [33:04]: "Mr. Pibb has a secret 23 flavor formula too. One part corporate trolling, 22 parts desperation."

Ultimately, Coca-Cola abandoned these knockoffs, recognizing that Dr. Pepper's authenticity and unique identity were irreplaceable.

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Surpassing Pepsi: An Epic Comeback

Despite limited advertising budgets and lack of major endorsements, Dr. Pepper's consistent branding and strategic distribution allowed it to surpass Pepsi in 2023, securing its position as America's second favorite soda.

Jack Crivici-Kramer [35:22]: "Dr. Pepper just passed Pepsi, the brand that has been battling Coke in the cola war since the dawn of fizzy time."

This monumental achievement is attributed to Dr. Pepper's unwavering commitment to its unique identity and the foundational support from its loyal Texas base.

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Key Takeaways and Business Insights

Nick Martell:
"Never underestimate a home turf advantage. It works in sports and it works in business. Dr. Pepper always enjoyed strong support in their home state of Texas. That base of support from their home market was invaluable for them because it gave the company a floor of support." [37:16]

Jack Crivici-Kramer:
"Dr. Pepper's success lies in doing deals in the gray area. They grew beyond their Texas roots thanks to those distribution partnerships with Coca-Cola and Pepsi. They found mutual interests, namely in bottling and distribution, allowing them to grow despite inherent tensions." [37:44]

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Fun Facts and Surprising Tidbits

• Dr. Pepper's Bottling Variations:
  Dr. Pepper bottles distributed by Coca-Cola and Pepsi have distinct designs. Coca-Cola’s bottles are tall and skinny with labels near the bottom, while Pepsi’s are wider with labels near the top.

  Jack Crivici-Kramer [38:57]: "The tall, skinny bottles with a label closer to the bottom. That's a Coca-Cola bottle."

• John Lennon's Obsession:
  John Lennon was so enamored with Dr. Pepper that he had it shipped from the U.S. to England for his recording sessions, despite it not being available in the UK at the time.

  Nick Martell [39:18]: "During the recording of the 1971 album Imagine, John Lennon was so obsessed with the Dr. Pepper flavor that he had it shipped by the crate from America to his recording studio in England."

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Conclusion: The Enduring Legacy of Dr. Pepper

Dr. Pepper's journey from a local Texas soda to a national powerhouse exemplifies the power of embracing uniqueness and strategic innovation. By staying true to its distinct identity and smartly navigating competitive challenges, Dr. Pepper has secured its place in the hearts (and fridges) of millions across the United States.

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Stay tuned for our next episode, where we explore the musical phenomenon "Hamilton" and its unexpected ties to the Founding Fathers!

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If you're intrigued by Dr. Pepper's story and want to learn more about the fascinating backstories of your favorite products, subscribe to The Best Idea Yet on the Wondery App or your preferred podcast platform. Don’t forget to rate and review to support the show!

Transcript

[Nick Martell]

Wondery subscribers can listen to the best idea yet, early and ad free right now.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[Nick Martell]

Well, you know what they say, Jack. You never do forget your first time, do you, man?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Which one are we talking about, Nick?

[Nick Martell]

I don't know. Do you want to make a confession here, Jack?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Oh, boy.

[Nick Martell]

You know, it's a pretty big audience, so I'm like, this may as well be the time and place.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So I was 30 when I had my first Dr. Pepper. Wow. It just never happened to me. Nobody ever showed me how to do it, so I'd never tried it before.

[Nick Martell]

You probably felt a little peer pressure, which made you even more nervous.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

About was Wednesday, June 5, when it finally happened.

[Nick Martell]

We were in lovely Los Angeles. It was a chilly morning, and you said, now's the time. I'm ready.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

You actually blindfolded me and you handed me a can and you said, jack, crack this open and try it. Boom. I don't know what I just drank is my first thought. My second thought I want another sip of was like a drink that couldn't decide what it wanted to be when it grew up, so it decided to be all those things.

[Nick Martell]

Well, the taste left an impact on your tongue, Jack. Cause it's actually made up of 23 different flavors. Exactly what those flavors are is a closely guarded trade secret. But if you had to speculate, what would you say is in there?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I'd say there's some barbecue sauce. I think there's cherries. I think there's prunes. There might be pepper, although I have no idea. It tasted very chemically in the best possible way. And it was unlike any soda experience I'd ever had.

[Nick Martell]

Well, today we'll find out why that experience is so unique. Because we're getting into the story of Dr. Pepper.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too? For over a century, Dr. Pepper was the Switzerland of sodas. It was a neutral party in the ongoing Pepsi vs Coca Cola soda wars.

[Nick Martell]

But in 2023, it overtook Pepsi to become America's second most popular sod.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

We repeat, Dr. Pepper, not Pepsi, is the second most popular soda in the United States. It's also the preferred drink of TikTok mixologists with breakout recipes, including Dr. Pepper with pickles.

[Nick Martell]

But Dr. Pepper itself was started as a weird soda fountain experiment in a Texas drug store back in 1885, a year before Coca Cola was invented and eight years before Pepsi.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

To this day, Dr. Pepper's 23 ingredients are a closely guarded trade secret. Oh, in a wild detail. For its first 80 years, Dr. Pepper was pretty much just a Texas thing.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, it wasn't until the 1960s that Dr. Pepper really broke out of the south and took its acquired taste national. All because it broke the first rule of marketing that we ever learned along the way.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

In this story, we'll hear how the greatest supporter of Dr. Pepper was, ironically and shockingly, Coca Cola itself.

[Nick Martell]

We'll also see the importance of a.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Home field advantage, why Wall street analysts today call Dr. Pepper the most differentiated trademark in all beverage, and how the.

[Nick Martell]

Whole the whole company was saved by a man with huge feet.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This is the ultimate underdog story. Here's why Dr. Pepper is the Best Idea yet.

[Nick Martell]

From Wondery and T Boy. I'm Nick Martell.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And I'm Jack Crevici Kramer.

[Nick Martell]

And this is the best idea yet. The untold origin stories of the products.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

You'Re obsessed with and the bold risk takers who made them go viral.

[Nick Martell]

I got that feeling again.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Something familia. This episode of the Best Idea yet is brought to you by our presenting sponsor, Amazon.

[Nick Martell]

Shopping on Amazon is one of the easiest ways to streamline your shopping so you can get time back to do the things you actually want to do, like listening to this podcast, Save the.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Everyday with Deals from Amazon. It's a sweltering afternoon in 1885, and the air inside Morrison's old corner drugstore in Waco, Texas, is thick with the scent of sugary syrups. The soda fountain sits mostly idle. Customers aren't excited about the usual flavors anymore. Lemon, lime, vanilla. They've all lost their spark. Behind the counter, a young pharmacist watches, stirring a glass absentmindedly. The flavors feel predictable. He wants something different. He wants something new.

[Nick Martell]

This is Charles Alderton, born in Brooklyn, trained in medicine in Galveston, Texas, and now a pharmacist down here in Waco. Helping cure people is his passion, but strangely, maybe even fatefully, he also has a thing for flavor.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It sounds like an odd pastime for a guy who spends his days measuring out cough syrups and ointments, but this is the late 19th century. It's actually the golden age of artificial flavoring. Science and industry are teaming up at this point in time to create new tastes, new sensations that people have never tried before. Up until this point, flavors come from fruits and spices. That's about it. But now chemists are coming up with ways to extract, refine, and bottle brand new flavors. It's like your taste buds just went from a life of monochrome to glorious Technicolor. Your tongue is tasting the rainbow for the first time ever.

[Nick Martell]

So Charles is just swept up in the craze. It's a smart side hustle for a young pharmacist, too. And in fact, Charles has already taken it one step further because he launched his own flavor extraction business to cash in on the booming market for mass produced flavorings. Maybe even make his fortune as a literal tastemaker.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Except it didn't work out that way. In 1885, a fire wipes out his business. We don't have any records to show what happened or what he lost. But by the time the smoke cleared, Charles wasn't his own boss anymore. Instead, he's working behind the counter at Morrison's old corner drugstore in Waco, Texas. He's mixing medicines and sodas.

[Nick Martell]

Now, we know what you're thinking. A doctor making soda. What a waste of talent and training. But in a way, this guy's actually perfectly suited for it because he's a trained chemist with a deep understanding of flavor. It's like putting Walter White in charge of the cocktail bar, because at this time, soda isn't just a sweet treat. Soda is actually a medicine. So across the country, they're serving up fizzy drinks that claim to cure everything from indigestion to fatigue. And they're not exactly subtle about it either. A lot of those early sodas, they contain some. How would you put it, Jack? Energizing ingredients.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Well, there's caffeine, there's alcohol, there's even cocaine and opium. Common ingredients into these sodas at drugstores. Nick, cocaine and opium were not illegal at this time. And cocaine was believed to help your body. It didn't even require a prescription.

[Nick Martell]

You just walk in and you ask for it. OTC cocaine.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

A lot of these elixirs are basically the Victorian era Red Bull. But instead of giving you wings, each one is meant to treat a very specific ailment.

[Nick Martell]

Way more active ingredients, way less government oversight.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

These medicinal sodas, though, they aren't mass produced. Instead, every drugstore has a soda jerk like Charles. These guys are like a barista, but for soda, Each drink has to be custom prepared by a soda jerk.

[Nick Martell]

The title soda jerk, we should point out, doesn't refer to their attitude. It actually started out as a pun because of the motion of jerking the levers of the soda fountain.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So instead of a soda clerk, you get a soda jerk.

[Nick Martell]

Basically, this was the first ever dad joke is what we're saying.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So part pharmacist, part mixologist, soda jerks Throw their flavorings and their supposed medicinal ingredients into a glass and they add a big dash of carbonated water from.

[Nick Martell]

The soda fountain and voila.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

A bubbly concoction to cure what ails you, or at least tastes like it might.

[Nick Martell]

Because they're not just mixing in the active ingredients like caffeine and opium. They also got to make these sodas taste good. So some of the flavors they're throwing into their cocktail tumblers include classics like raspberry, orange, pineapple. But there also are some weirder ones. Jack, could I interest you in a celery, rhubarb or even clam flavored soda? That's right, they had a clam flavored soda.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Because nothing says refreshing. Pick me up like a bottle of bubbly clam juice. So Charles Alderton is down in Texas trying to come up with a signature flavor combo to get his customers to fall back in love with the soda fountain. Because that's not just good for their health, it'd be good for the drugstore too.

[Nick Martell]

That's why Charles isn't just tweaking old recipes. He's aiming to create something entirely new. Something that will cause a town wide taste sensation. Like the Ramen Burger of 2013 or Jack, your favorite, the cronut of that same year.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But Charles inspiration is is the drugstore itself. Because all those different medicines and flavors at the soda fountain, their smells just hang in the hot Texas air. And Charles loves that smell. So he tried to make it into a drink form.

[Nick Martell]

He's trying to turn the essence of drugstore into a consumable beverage. Is that correct, Jack?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Eau de pharmacy. And after countless trials, he lands on a mix of 23 different flavors. It's November 1865, and this day will go down in history.

[Nick Martell]

That's right, a 23 flavor formula designed to taste like the fruity atmosphere of a 19th century pharmacy. This is the first Dr. Pepper. And Jack, I gotta ask, what exactly are those flavors?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

To this day, we do not know. It has never been revealed publicly what the 23 ingredients of Dr. Pepper are. It is truly incredible that after all these years, nobody at the company has ever leaked the flavor to tmz.

[Nick Martell]

It's like a witch's brew of tiny tonics. Corn syrup, nutmeg, allspice, unpronounceable randos. We don't even know.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Some say it's a mix of cherry, licorice and cola flavors. Others claim there's a hint of prune juice. The only thing we do know for sure, it's impossible to describe. Even back then, people had trouble pinning down exactly what it tasted like. And that weakness will actually become Dr. Pepper's greatest strength.

[Nick Martell]

More on that in a bit. But here's the weird thing. Despite Charles's background in pharmaceuticals and despite the medicinal soda trend at the time, his new drink doesn't contain any stimulants at all. That's right. This original Dr. Pepper formula has no cocaine. It doesn't even have caffeine, opium, nopium. It's just an entirely unique new jumble of flavors. And I can't believe I had to say that. No cocaine included.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

We can tell you that Coca Cola did have cocaine in its original formula, hence the coke name.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah. Addictive ingredients, such a competitive advantage.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Records show Dr. Pepper is first served to the public on December 1, 1885, a full year before Coca Cola even hits the market. And the response to this first Dr. Pepper was huge.

[Nick Martell]

Word spreads fast. Pretty soon, folks are lining up at the counter at Morrison's drugstore, sipping it on their lunch breaks. People start asking for it by name. And jack, the name of this concoction is Dr. Pepper.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Not yet. Right now, it doesn't have an official name. When people order it, they simply ask for the Waco.

[Nick Martell]

The Waco. I kind of like it. We can work with that.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But it seems like the only person in town who's not hooked on the Waco is the creator himself, Charles. The soda fountain is in full flow, but Charles just is not satisfied. For him, the drink's been a fun experiment, but it's not the medical career that he dreams of. So he hands in his two weeks notice to his boss, the owner of Morrison's drugstore, Wade Morrison.

[Nick Martell]

Along with his name tag and keys. There's something else Charles gives Wade on his very last day. Charles sells Wade the recipe for what will become Dr. Pepper. And we don't know for how much, but Charles doesn't even look back. He goes on to work at a local drug manufacturer and eventually becomes one of the leading chemists in the South.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So this leaves Wade Morrison, the drugstore owner, with this new drink that's proven just the tonic for his flagging soda fountain. It's just missing one thing to take it to the next level.

[Nick Martell]

It's missing a real name. Now, we don't know a ton about Wade Morrison, the pharmacist, but we do know one thing for sure. He came up with the name Dr.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Pepper, but we don't know exactly why. There are plenty of theories. There are even a few candidates of Doctors with the family name Pepper that Wade may have named his first drink after as a kind of tribute.

[Nick Martell]

But honestly, Jack doesn't really matter with a name as perfect as this, because sodas at the time, they were much more about the medicinal qualities than their taste. And Dr. Pepper, it embraces this whole health tonic thing. It's basically saying, I'm a drinkable Advil, right?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Pretty soon, other pharmacies in nearby towns start asking Wade to ship them pre mixed Dr. Pepper syrup so they can add it to their soda fountains. There is so much demand so quickly that Wade starts cooking up batches of the stuff in his own basement. But he just can't meet demand. He needs to bring in someone who can help him scale this 23 flavor phenomenon or risk losing all his momentum.

[Nick Martell]

So he reaches out to another Waco resident named Robert Lazenby. And Lazenby already has a pretty successful soda of his own called Circle, a ginger ale. He has the experience that could help Wade, a guy who's been making the soda in his basement the last few months. Also, he's got something even more important. A bottling plant.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Lazenby has a reputation for being a hothead. He's also got grit because he's partially blind due to a childhood illness.

[Nick Martell]

And Jack, he's loyal. He fights for the people he cares for. He even once faced down the Ku Klux Klan when they wanted him to fire the black foreman at his bottling plant.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And we assume he can keep a secret, because Wade is about to share his secret 23 flavor formula.

[Nick Martell]

Right now, Dr. Pepper is only available at soda fountains in and around Waco. But with Lazenby's bottling plant, Dr. Pepper could be on the shelves of local grocery stores. This also takes it out of the soda fountains in the pharmacies, making the Dr. Pepper brand more visible.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Lazenby sees the local buzz around Dr. Pepper and is convinced he can take it from a one town wonder to a national hit. But there's one fundamental problem. The flavor is so unlike anything else that there's no way to describe it. And that could be a recipe for disaster.

[Nick Martell]

But Lazenby, he actually thinks this isn't a downside. In fact, he thinks having an indescribable taste is the central ingredient to Dr. Pepper's winning formula.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Je ne sais quoi is not an acceptable way to describe something in Texas.

[Nick Martell]

No, it's not.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But Lazenby thinks there's money in the mystery.

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[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Subject to credit approval. A brand new three story brick building is rising in downtown Waco, Texas. Inside, workers hustle, crates are stacked high and the air is thick with the scent of sweet syrup. It is 1906, and Robert Lazenby stands outside looking up at the home of Dr. Pepper, a factory he built from the ground up. It's got thick, solid 18 inch brick walls, a sturdy timber frame, and a grooved tile roof. Dr. Pepper has officially gone from basement experiment to high growth startup.

[Nick Martell]

But we gotta ask, how did this all happen so fast? Well, Lazenby saw the early buzz. The crowds chugging it at the soda fountain, the locals demanding it by name. And that convinced him that this drink, this strangely impossible to describe beverage, has something special. So to help break it out beyond Texas, Lazenby takes Dr. Pepper to the 1904St. Louis World's Fair. And Jack, how big a deal is that?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This event is huge. It lasts seven months and attracts nearly 20 million visitors. Exhibits from around the world showcase new technology, art, culture and cuisine. A century ago, World's Fairs were like Disney World, the louvre and a Ted Talk conference merged into one and multiplied by 100.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, it's like the Olympics of innovation.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But what's special about the St. Louis World's Fair is how it popularizes a new phenomenon. Convenience food.

[Nick Martell]

Okay, get this. The ice cream cone, cotton candy and the hot dog, those were all considered innovations because they were the new things at the 1904 World's Fair. All of them exploded in popularity thanks to what was going down in St. Louis. And to wash all of them down, what, are you going to have to.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Crack open a Dr. Pepper?

[Nick Martell]

Oh, yeah.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That's why Lazenby and Dr. Pepper are there handing out samples by the millions. Some people love it, some people hate it.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, we're talking five star and one star reviews. But even if it only gets five stars from a small percentage of those 20 million visitors, it still represents a lot of people from around the country. Who are now craving this new concoction.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Though, of course, when they try to tell their friends about it, they're going to face the same problem Lazenby has been facing. How do you sell a drink that no one can describe?

[Nick Martell]

Here's the pause. The pod moment. When Jack and I were back in business school, one of the first rules of marketing that we learned was your product needs to be clear. It needs to be understandable. It needs to be describable.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Dr. Pepper's taste is the opposite. Yeah, it's indescribable, and it's divisive. But instead of hiding this fact, Lazenby flips the script. Instead of trying to define what it is, he leans into the mystery. Forget about the taste. Keep things big, bold, and a little bit cryptic.

[Nick Martell]

He starts producing slogans and ads for Dr. Pepper, claiming it's not a soda. This is liquid sunshine, and it gives you them vigor.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And there's one advertisement where Atlas, the guy who balances planet Earth on his shoulders, recommends Dr. Pepper.

[Nick Martell]

Even the slogans that do talk about the taste, they stay pretty vague. Like, how about this one, Jack? It leaves a pleasant farewell and a gracious callback. It sounds more like an etiquette lesson than a drink slogan.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That's something you say at a dinner party when you don't want to offend your host. Yeah, but all of these slogans have something in common. They're not telling you what Dr. Pepper tastes like. They're telling you how it makes you feel.

[Nick Martell]

Called Don Draper and makes me a Dr. Pepper on the rocks. Because this is a play the Mad Men would be proud of.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

If MBA programs tell you that the product should be clear, Madison Avenue tells you the product should evoke a feeling. And when something is hard to describe, it feels exclusive, it feels special, and it feels different.

[Nick Martell]

What Dr. Pepper is basically doing here is taking what should be a fatal marketing weakness, and they start turning it into a powerful marketing selling point. In 1906, something happens that makes Dr. Pepper strategy look even smarter. The creation of the Food and Drug Administration, which is meant to address America's rampant problems in food quality.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And one of the first moves made by the fda. They start clamping down on cocaine in sodas.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, who called the fun police on these sodas, man?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This spells the end for medicinal sounding soft drinks loaded with special ingredients. But Dr. Pepper is perfectly positioned for this prohibition on cocaine. Soda. Yeah.

[Nick Martell]

Their ads proudly boast that actually, Dr. Pepper, they got no caffeine, no cocaine, no injurious drugs, not like those other sodas that have two scoops of the white powder in them.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

They even run an ad that likens Dr. Pepper to a Roman centurion defending people from caffeine doped beverages. It's basically an action movie poster. But it's an ad for soda.

[Nick Martell]

But wait, jack. We know Dr. Pepper does contain caffeine today. So, like, what exactly happened?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Well, in 1917, Robert Lazenby, who's still running things at Dr. Pepper, realizes that caffeine actually does make people feel energized. So he adds two scoops of caffeine to the mix.

[Nick Martell]

All right, Fair, fair, fair. Although through all of this, Dr. Pepper is racking up loyal customers, expanding their market, and solidifying their stronghold across the south, flooding soda fountains from Dallas to Daytona and filling bottles down in Boca Raton. However, the national market for Dr. Pepper, it still remains elusive.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

In 1941, Robert Lazenby passes away with the dynamo driving Dr. Pepper's rise gone, it looks like its fate is sealed as a quirky regional soda, beloved in the south but barely known to the rest of the country. And it stays that way for the next 30 years until a new leader takes over with big ambitions and big toes to match them.

[Nick Martell]

Excuse me. Can you repeat that one, Jack?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Big toes, Nick literally. Smoke curls in the air of the Dr. Pepper boardroom. A man leans back in his chair, cigar in hand, Feet. Such enormous feet propped up on the table. This man is Woodrow Wilson foots Clemens, the CEO Dr. Pepper.

[Nick Martell]

Not to be confused with the 28th president of the United States, Woodrow Wilson, who Foots happens to be named after. And that nickname, Foots, it actually comes from his high school days because his feet were so big and his legs were so thin that basically it looked like two toothpicks stuck onto a pair of watermelons.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Foots has been working for Dr. Pepper since he started as a salesman to help pay his way through college. He moved up the company from area manager to vice president to COO, and by 1970, he is the CEO. And all that time, he's insisted on keeping his memorable nickname, Foots. He tells people it helped when he was a salesman because it stuck with his customers. And if it was good enough to get him all the way to the top, then it's good enough for when he's the CEO. And Foots has one big goal. Now that he's at the helm of Dr. Pepper. Take this soda national, because without a plan to grow beyond the south, it risks fading into obscurity. Just another regional favorite that never Makes it past the state line.

[Nick Martell]

Time for reality check here, Jack. 1966, Coca Cola was closing in on a billion dollars in sales, which is about $10 billion in today's money. But what about our boys over at Dr. Pepper?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

They were selling just $28 million in sales. 3% as much as Coca Cola.

[Nick Martell]

Okay, so at the time, Dr. Pepper still a fraction the size of Coke.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But Foots believes in this drink. He's seen what it can do in Texas, and he's convinced it can win over the rest of the country too.

[Nick Martell]

And to do this, Foots has come up with a sales philosophy that straight shooting as his career trajectory. Young people, they don't care about tradition, he says, tapping a fresh campaign plan on his desk. Let's get him hooked on something new.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Foots has already set the stage for national success by leveraging a loophole to make one of the biggest strategic moves in soda history. In 1966, the FDA makes a key ruling that Dr. Pepper is not a cola. It's officially classified instead as Pepper Soda. Something completely different from Coca Cola and Pepsi.

[Nick Martell]

In fact, it is just this opening that Foots needs to pull off one of the most brilliant counterintuitive plays in all of business history.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But to understand it, we need to understand how soda distribution worked back in the 1970s.

[Nick Martell]

Now Yeti, as we've told you before, distribution is destiny. If you have a great product and you can't distribute it, then no one's going to get it. But back then in the soda industry, Coke and Pepsi and other sodas made their money not by selling soda, but by selling concentrated syrup. The buyers were actually hundreds of hyper local independent bottling companies spread across America. And these bottling companies, they would add carbonated water to the syrup, put that in bottles, and then it got to the stores.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Now, a lot of these independent bottlers signed non compete contracts with their biggest customers. That means if a bottler is already shipping Pepsi products, they're going to turn down any offer from Coca Cola. It's right there in black and white. Their hands are contractually tied.

[Nick Martell]

But with this FDA ruling in hand, Foots can go to the bottlers and say, hey, we're not a cola. You can totally take us as a client. Even if you're already contracted to Coke or Pepsi.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It takes some convincing. But Foots manages to talk these independent bottlers into carrying Dr. Pepper in addition to the cola they carry. It's more money for them. And contractually, Coca Cola and Pepsi can't do anything about it.

[Nick Martell]

And with that one giant leap for Pepperkind. Dr. Pepper is now Switzerland. It doesn't matter which side of the Coke versus Pepsi Cola wars. A restaurant, drugstore, or pro football stadium is on. Everyone now starts adding Dr. Pepper syrup into their soda fountain machines.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

You can see the result of this brilliant move today. Taco Bell and Buffalo Wild Wings, they carry Pepsi products. McDonald's, Burger King, they carry Coke products, but they all carry Dr. Pepper. And thanks to this smooth neutrality argument, Foots builds a national distribution network for Dr. Pepper. And he does it fast.

[Nick Martell]

This is the moment Dr. Pepper finally starts breaking out of the South.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This deal Foots makes for the bottlers by exploiting a contractual technicality, is the inflection point for the doctor.

[Nick Martell]

Which is probably how Forrest Gump got his hands on 15 Dr. Peppers at the White House.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I must have drank me about 15 Dr. Peppers.

[Nick Martell]

Well, we got the receipts to prove the power of this deal. Remember how in 1966 Dr. Pepper sales were 28 million bucks a year? Jack, where are we looking?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

In 1972, revenues have more than doubled to $63 million.

[Nick Martell]

Sit down, stand up and pour another Dr. Pepper.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

All these new distribution channels help Dr. Pepper find new strongholds to outside of the South. When Dr. Pepper launches in New York City in 1970, they sell 18 million bottles in the first two weeks. By 1972, New York alone is chugging Dr. Pepper almost as fast as the company's biggest plant can churn them out. That's 10 million bottles a month.

[Nick Martell]

You're washing down bacon, egg and cheeses on the subway with a double Dr. Pepper check.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

One journalist in New York says that ordering a kosher salami on rye and an ice cold Dr. Pepper was a combo that brings him to tears because they go together like wine and cheese. By 1975, Dr. Pepper has almost 5% of the soft drink market. Not too shabby.

[Nick Martell]

But when you compare that to Coca Cola's 26% share, it's up there. But it's still an underdog.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So in the late 1970s, Foots decides it's time to shake up Dr. Pepper's positioning. Dr. Pepper has always had a marketing problem, slash, opportunity. It's the soda that doesn't taste like anything else. You can't compare it to Coke. You can't compare it to root beer. You can't even really explain Dr. Pepper. And Foots knows all this.

[Nick Martell]

Before, Dr. Pepper leaned into the healthy tonic angle of the product. But now it is time for a different approach. Foots wants to capitalize on Dr. Pepper's outsider stats to make it feel rebellious. The same way he's owned his funny big footed nickname for decades. Alrighty. He started to do this in the 1960s with the slogan America's most misunderstood drink. But then in the 1970s, Foots wants to make drinking Dr. Pepper a badge of individuality.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

To do this, his ad team comes up with a campaign that completely changes Dr. Pepper's image overnight and makes it stick, too. The ads don't tell you what Dr.

[Nick Martell]

Pepper tastes like, which was impossible.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And they also don't tell you what Dr. Pepper makes you feel, which they used to do. Instead, they tell you what kind of person drinks Dr. Pepper. There's winning peppers. Spinning peppers. None. Pepper's fun peppers. Wouldn't you like to be a Pepper too?

[Nick Martell]

This is Dr. Pepper's viral moment in the 1970s. These ads, they're huge. Everyone is talking about Dr. Pepper. Who's a Pepper? Cool people, fun people, people who want to be a little bit. A little weird. The counterculture.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

You cut holes in your jeans, you're a Pepper. You make paintings with lipstick, you're a Pepper. You collect pet rocks, you wear mood rings. You streak across college football games.

[Nick Martell]

Pepper. Oh, and then Jack Foots builds off this. He also lands some big distribution deals with supermarkets, increasing Dr. Pepper sales tenfold. Plus, he gets Dr. Pepper's, the lucrative deal of being on the menu of the Wendy's fast food chain.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Wider distribution for Dr. Pepper means more and more people try it. And a good proportion portion of them even like it. But not everyone is happy about this, especially the people in charge of Coca Cola.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah. In fact, as Peppermania sweeps the country, Coca Cola finally starts to realize that Dr. Pepper is in fact, competition.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The FDA says Coke and Dr. Pepper aren't competing, but Coke's earnings reports say Dr. Pepper is a threat.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, yeah.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

A threat that now needs to be crushed.

[Nick Martell]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. With the price of just about everything going up, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing. Mint Mobile Unlimited premium wireless. Everybody to get 30. 30. Better get 30. Better get 20. 20. 20. Better get 20. 20, you better get 15. 15, 15, 15. Just 15 bucks a month. Sold. Give it a [e-mail] Switch.

[D]

Upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. New customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy. Taxes and fees extra.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

See mint mobile.com It's 1972. Inside Coca Cola's headquarters, a group of executives are hunched around a long boardroom table. In front of each of them, a maxi sized cup of Coca Cola. A whiteboard looms over them. Three words scrawled across it in thick black marker, Kill Dr. Dr. Pepper.

[Nick Martell]

For years, Coca Cola barely noticed Dr. Pepper. It was quirky, regional, harmless. But now Dr. Pepper is national. It's gaining market share. Young people, they're choosing Dr. P over Coke. And to add insult to injury, Dr. Pepper is using the same independent bottlers and distributors as Coke is. Dr. Pepper is piggybacking off of Coke's distribution network. And Coke executives, they are not amused.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Because if Dr. Pepper keeps growing, it could go from upstart nuisance to existential threat for Coca Cola.

[Nick Martell]

So a suited executive leans forward, steepling his fingers. We've got the money. We've got the distribution. He pauses to take a huge slurp of the giant Coca Cola right in front of him. We just need a drink that'll put Dr. Pepper out to pasture.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So Coca Cola does what any market giant would do when it sees an upstart gaining traction. They try to crush it like an empty can.

[Nick Martell]

And Coca Cola's genius master plan is to create a blatant Dr. Pepper knockoff.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Mark Zuckerberg has spent the last 15 years of his career doing this.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, totally, Jack. Instagram stories, Instagram reels, Facebook, marketplace, all of them. They're one to one copies of things other companies created. We call this concept zucking. And Coca Cola now wants to zuck Dr. Pepper.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So they throw together some ingredients to make something that tastes not altogether dissimilar to Dr. Pepper. And they don't even try to be subtle with the branding.

[Nick Martell]

No, they don't, Jack.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

They call this knockoff Peppo.

[Nick Martell]

They might as well have called it.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Professor Pepper just to rub it in even further. They test market this Dr. Pepper knockoff Peppo right in Waco, Texas, Dr. Pepper's literal home.

[Nick Martell]

That just feels offensive right there.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's Coke's pretty obvious way of saying, we're bigger than you and we're coming for you.

[Nick Martell]

But our guy, Woodrow Wilson Clements, AKA Foots, he ain't a guy who likes to be stepped on. So Dr. Pepper lawyers up and goes to court claiming that Pepo is a trademark infringement. And you know what? The judge agrees.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So in response, Coca Cola rebrands and they come up with a new name that is somehow even more ridiculous. Mr. Pibb.

[Nick Martell]

That's right. If you ever enjoyed a Mr. Pibb, that was Coke's desperate rebranded attempt to drive Dr. Pepper out of business after losing a lawsuit.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And Mr. Pibb has a secret 23 flavor formula too. One part corporate trolling, 22 parts desperation.

[Nick Martell]

Coca Cola does not stop there. They throw millions into advertising. Mr. Pibb. And not just any ads. They steal the concepts straight from the Dr. Pepper playbook.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The TV ads feature carefree sun dappled teens and 20 somethings chilling at beach parties while knocking back a can of Mr. Pibb. Coca Cola is trying its best to convince America that Mr. Pibb is just as cool, just as fun, just as individualistic as Dr. Pepper.

[Nick Martell]

Okay, but you know what the problem here is, Jack?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

They're posers.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, Mr. Pib's never gonna work when it's not actually authentic. They're trying too hard to be Dr. Pepper. Plus, coffee being is unoriginal. And unoriginal is the opposite of individualistic.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

All Mr. Pibb ends up doing is make people want Dr. Pepper even more. Coca Cola is desperate enough to create a knockoff. It must be an even better product than we realized.

[Nick Martell]

Peppo.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Mr. Pibb. Neither of them stood a chance.

[Nick Martell]

No, they didn't, Jack.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Coca Cola pretty much gives up on Mr. Pibb, eventually rebranding it Pib Extra.

[Nick Martell]

But in 2010, Coca Cola pulls off one of the most awkward moves we've ever seen in business. Jack and I have been calling this the frenemy move because Coca Cola acquires the biggest Coke distributor in the country. And when they do, they realize that Dr. Pepper is now their client.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But instead of finally getting their vengeance and crushing the can of Dr. Pepper like the executives have always fantasized about. They don't do that.

[Nick Martell]

No, they don't, Jack. Coca Cola realizes, you know what? We're better off letting Dr. Pepper exist and taking a cut of the profits by continuing to bottle and distribute them. Basically, if you can't beat them, bottle them.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Which brings us to the twist that nobody saw coming. Because after decades of being the weird kid at the soda table, in 2023, Dr. Pepper leapfrogged Pepsi to become the number two soda in the United States.

[Nick Martell]

Let that sink in and marinate in your guts. Dr. Pepper just passed Pepsi, the brand that has been battling Coke in the cola war since the dawn of fizzy time.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Coke still is number one with 20% of the soda market, but Dr. Pepper has a respectable 8%. And Pepsi, they've fallen to 7%. What an epic come from behind story Dr. Pepper.

[Nick Martell]

It is the sea biscuit of soda, Jack. It is the Mighty Ducks of soft drinks.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So how the heck did this happen? Dr. Pepper never had Pepsi's ad budget. They never had the super bowl halftime shows or Beyonce holding a can like Pepsi did.

[Nick Martell]

No, you're right, Jack. But they did have something else Dr. Pepper had. Consistency, we should point out. That is despite Dr. Pepper itself changing ownership throughout the years. Like merging with Keurig Coffee and acquiring dozens of different beverage brands.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Actually more than 125 different beverage brands. Dr. Pepper is now a $15 billion publicly traded drink conglomerate that also owns 7Up, Nantucket Nectars, Snapple A and W Root Beer. And yet it still has not altered its core message, even by an inch.

[Nick Martell]

No, it has not. Throughout all of this, Dr. Pepper has leaned into being different. Never tried to be a cola and never tried to fit in. It didn't even try to explain its taste. It just doubled down on its own weird, spicy little outsider identity for over a century. Even if it took Jack 37 years to try one.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So, Nick, what's your takeaway on the story of Dr. Pepper?

[Nick Martell]

Jack, my takeaway is never underestimate a home turf advantage. It works in sports and it works in business. Dr. Pepper, they always enjoyed strong support in their home state of Texas. And that base of support from their home market, that was invaluable for them because it gave the company a floor of support. They could depend on it in their planning and their forecasting for the future.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

In sports, teams have a floor of support. Their die hard fans in the home market will remain die hard no matter how the team does on the field. And Nick, you're right. It's similar in business. If you have a reliable sales floor, you're able to take risks, knowing that in the worst case scenario, you'll still be supported by your hometown fans.

[Nick Martell]

You serve them the red meat they crave because keeping them loyal to you lets your business operate in a much more confident position. So, Jack, what about you? What's your takeaway?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Nick, I actually got a Star wars analogy, so bear with me.

[Nick Martell]

All right, hit me, hit me.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Here it is. Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I know you don't know the Star wars stories that well, Nick, so let me tell you two. After Anakin has turned to the dark side, Obi Wan warns him that only a Sith deals in absolutes. And you know what? Dr. Pepper seems to agree. Because their success lies in doing deals in the gray area. Dr. Pepper grew beyond its Texas roots thanks to those distribution partnerships with Coca Cola and Pepsi. Dr. Pepper was able to forge those relationships because they didn't perceive the other companies as friends or foes per se. And despite that inherent tension, Dr. Pepper was able to find gray areas of mutual interest, namely in bottling and distribution. They realized they could use those frenemies to grow.

[Nick Martell]

It's so true, Jack. The deals that get you ahead are rarely the obvious one ones. It's not black or white. It's the ones that are in the gray zone. That's where you have a huge advantage. Now time for our absolute favorite part of the show.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The best facts yet. The hero stats, the facts and the surprises that we discovered in our research. But we couldn't fit into the story.

[Nick Martell]

All right, Jack, what do we got? Let's kick it off.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Just like Coca Cola, Pepsi now owns their bottling and distribution distribution networks too. Which means Pepsi now calls Dr. Pepper our clients. In fact, you can tell the difference between a Dr. Pepper distributed by Coke and the Dr. Pepper distributed by Pepsi. The tall, skinny bottles with a label closer to the bottom. That's a Coca Cola bottle.

[Nick Martell]

Okay, I can picture this now.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The wider bottle with a label closer to the top. That's a pepsi bottle of Dr. Pepper.

[Nick Martell]

All right, I got one for you. This is the Dr. Pepper Sergeant Pepper link we knew had to exist. Get this. During the recording of the 1971 album Imagine, John Lennon was so obsessed with the Dr. Pepper flavor that he had it shipped by the crate from America to his recording studio in England. Since it wasn't available in the UK at that time, he basically swore that he needed Dr. Pepper to fuel his creativity.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But this. This is when he'd already left the Beatles and sergeant Pepper was with the Beatles.

[Nick Martell]

This goes back even further. Stick with me, jack. The Beatles 1967 album, Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Uh huh.

[Nick Martell]

Could it actually have been inspired by Dr. Pepper?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's possible. John Lennon was a Dr. Pepper convert at that point too. But According to Paul McCartney, he got the idea for the name Sergeant Pepper when he misheard someone asking him to pass the salt and pepper.

[Nick Martell]

And that was was Dr. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And that is why Dr. Pepper is the best idea yet. Coming up on the next episode of the Best Idea yet is the musical that made the Founding Fathers rap. It continues to sell out theaters over a decade since its debut. And somehow it made a hit song out of the political wrangling that laid the foundations of the US financial system.

[Nick Martell]

That's right. It's Hamilton the Musical.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Get ready for duels, drama and a whole lot of fast paced rhyming because we are not throwing away our shot on this one.

[Nick Martell]

If you've got a product you're obsessed with but wish you knew its backstory, drop us a comment right here and we'll look into it for you.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Oh, and don't forget to rate and review the podcast. That's how we grow the show.

[Nick Martell]

The best idea yet is a production of Wondery hosted by me, Nick Martell.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And me, Jackson Kramer. Our senior producers are Matt Beagle and Chris Gautier.

[Nick Martell]

Peter Arcuni is our additional senior producer.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Our senior Managing producer is Nick Ryan and Taylor Sniffin is our managing producer.

[Nick Martell]

Our producer and researcher is H. Conley.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This episode was written and produced by Adam Skuse.

[Nick Martell]

We use many sources in our research, including How Soda Shook up the World by Tristan donovan and Understanding Dr. Pepper by Leo Janus in Texas Monthly Sound.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Design and mixing by Kelly Kramerek Fact.

[Nick Martell]

Checking by Erica Janik Music supervision by.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Scott Velazquez and Jolina Garcia for Freeson Sync.

[Nick Martell]

Our theme song is Got that Feeling Again by Black Alack. Executive producers for Nick and Jack Studios.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Are me, Nick Martell and me, Jack Revici Kramer.

[Nick Martell]

Executive producers for Wondery are Jenny Lauer Beckman, Aaron o' Flaherty and Marshall Louand.

[D]

Today is the worst day of Abby's life. The 17 year old cradles her newborn son in her arms.

[Nick Martell]

They all saw how much I loved him. They didn't have to take him from me.

[D]

Between 1945 and the early 1970s, families shipped their pregnant teenage daughters to maternity homes and forced them to secretly place their babies for adoption in hidden corners across America. It's still happening. My parents had me locked up in the godparent home against my will. They worked with them to manipulate me and to steal my son away from me. The godparent home is the brainchild of controversial preacher Jerry Falwell, the father of the modern Evangelical Rite and the founder of Liberty University, where powerful men, emboldened by their faith determine who gets to be a parent and who must give their child away. Follow Liberty Lost on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.