🥏Frisbee: A Pie in the Sky Idea (literally) | 39

Summary

The Best Idea Yet: Episode 39 – 🥏Frisbee: A Pie in the Sky Idea (Literally)

Release Date: July 8, 2025
Hosts: Nick Martell and Jack Crevici Kramer
Produced by: Wondery

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Introduction to Phonoesthetics and the Frisbee

The episode begins with Nick Martell introducing the concept of phonoesthetics—the study of the pleasantness of word sounds—and seamlessly ties it to the central topic: the Frisbee.

Nick Martell [00:20]: "Phono aesthetics are the art of understanding the pleasantness of the sound of words."

Jack and Nick explore how certain sounds evoke specific imagery, setting the stage for discussing the Frisbee, a word that has undoubtedly become a cultural staple.

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Early Origins: Pie Tin Tossing at Middlebury College and Yale

The Frisbee's origin story is shrouded in multiple claims, primarily between Middlebury College and Yale University. The narrative starts in 1939 at Middlebury College, where students began tossing pie tins, a pastime credited to the Delta Upsilon fraternity during a road trip mishap.

Jack Crevici Kramer [05:00]: "Middlebury College says its Delta Upsilon fraternity invented the pie tin frisbeeing during a road trip in 1939."

Contrarily, Yale asserts its own claim, though their documentation lags compared to Middlebury's well-established statute featuring a bronze frisbee-catching dog statue on campus.

Nick Martell [06:31]: "Middlebury's [statute] cements their claim as the true origin of the frisbee."

Regardless of its true birthplace, the pie tin tossing tradition spread across New England, laying the groundwork for the Frisbee's eventual commercialization.

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Fred Morrison and Lucille Ney: From Cake Pans to Flying Discs

The narrative shifts to Los Angeles in 1937, where teenage sweethearts Fred Morrison and Lucille Ney inadvertently set the Frisbee in motion. They began tossing cake pans at the beach, leading to a spontaneous business idea when a stranger offered to buy one of their makeshift discs.

Nick Martell [09:02]: "Fred decides to have a little fun. It only costs him a nickel, but the price he names is a quarter."

This simple exchange catalyzed Fred and Lucille's venture into selling "Flying Cake Pans," marking the birth of their flying disc business. Their entrepreneurial spirit shone as they profitably sold the discs at a 400% markup, capitalizing on the immediate, contagious joy the discs brought to their customers.

Jack Crevici Kramer [10:13]: "It's instant, visible, and most importantly, contagious fun."

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Challenges and Innovations: The Whirlaway and Pluto Platter

World War II interrupted Fred's burgeoning business as he served as a pilot. Post-war, leveraging his aerodynamics knowledge, Fred redesigned the disc into the Whirlaway but struggled to gain traction despite improvements.

Nick Martell [15:03]: "The in-flight entertainment system is broken, and the person next to you just slipped off their shoes. You're experiencing the miracle of flight."

Efforts to rebrand as the Pluto Platter amid the 1950s UFO craze faltered, leading to stagnant sales. Fred's perseverance, however, introduced a pivotal design tweak—incorporating an airfoil shape—to enhance flight stability, setting the stage for the Frisbee's resurgence.

Nick Martell [15:12]: "This new design gives the Whirlaway more lift."

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Wham O's Intervention and the Birth of the Modern Frisbee

Enter Wham O, a Pasadena-based company renowned for viral toys like the Hula Hoop. Recognizing the potential in Fred's Pluto Platter, Wham O acquired the rights, rebranded it as the Frisbee, and launched it in 1958. Despite initial tepid sales overshadowed by the Hula Hoop craze, Wham O's marketing prowess kept the Frisbee afloat.

Jack Crevici Kramer [19:31]: "Wham O refinanced the Pluto Platter into the Frisbee, launching it with their signature viral marketing strategies."

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Ed Hedrick and the Evolution into Competitive Sports

A turning point came with Ed Hedrick, a former deep-sea welder with a passion for toy invention. Hired by Wham O as head of R&D, Ed enhanced the Frisbee's design by adding concentric rings and refining its balance, significantly improving flight stability.

Jack Crevici Kramer [25:37]: "Ed adds concentric rings to the top for better stability in flight."

Ed didn't stop at design improvements; he reimagined the Frisbee's market positioning. Transitioning from a children's toy to a precision athletic tool, Ed became known as "Steady Ed" for his flawless throws, thereby attracting a wider, more diverse audience.

Jack Crevici Kramer [27:06]: "His Frisbee throws are so accurate, so wobble-free, that Ed earns the nickname Steady Ed."

This strategic pivot led to the advent of various Frisbee sports, including:

• Ultimate Frisbee: Invented in 1968 by New Jersey high schoolers, transforming the Frisbee from casual play to a team sport with over 5 million players in the US alone by 2012.

  Nick Martell [29:01]: "It's played in over 100 countries. A 2012 report said that the US had over 5 million Ultimate Frisbee players."

• Disc Golf: Initiated by George Sappenfield in 1965, merging Frisbee play with golf's structured format. Despite initial resistance from Wham O, Ed Hedrick championed the sport, leading to over 16,000 disc golf courses worldwide today.

  Jack Crevici Kramer [32:35]: "Disc golf catches on, and by the time Ed passes away in 2002, it's played professionally, internationally, and obsessively by millions."

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Legacy and Takeaways

The episode concludes by highlighting the Frisbee's transformation from a simple pie tin to a $1 billion industry. Key takeaways include the importance of:

1. Creative Naming: Opting for unique, evocative names can propel a product into cultural relevance.

   Jack Crevici Kramer [35:45]: "Make it a goal to get your brand name added to the dictionary."

2. Innovative Marketing: Transforming giveaways into interactive challenges can create viral buzz.

   Nick Martell [37:12]: "This strategy turned every giveaway into a story. It turned it into an experience and a little bit of word-of-mouth magic."

3. Adaptation and Persistence: Continuous product improvement and adapting to market trends are crucial for sustained success.

   Nick Martell [16:25]: "Fred's got the flight mechanic spinning, but his marketing mechanics are stalling out."

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Notable Quotes

• Nick Martell [10:03]: "Cha ching, cha ching."

• Jack Crevici Kramer [15:41]: "The aerodynamics are upgraded, the name downgraded, but the sales continue to stay flat as a pie tent."

• Nick Martell [27:43]: "You don't need cleats and shoulder pads to play. You need bare feet, an open space, and an open mind."

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Behind the Scenes and Additional Insights

Throughout the episode, hosts Nick and Jack provide engaging commentary and humor, making the historical journey of the Frisbee both informative and entertaining. They also incorporate fascinating "Best Facts Yet," such as the US military's experimentation with Frisbees during the Vietnam War and the unintended connections between Frisbee culture and notable personalities like Joel Silver.

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Conclusion

The Frisbee's story is a testament to innovation, resilience, and the power of effective marketing. From humble beginnings as a pie tin toss to becoming a beloved sporting instrument worldwide, the Frisbee exemplifies how a simple idea, when nurtured and refined, can become a lasting cultural icon.

---

Sources Cited:

• "How the Frisbee Took Flight" by Ben Van Hoovelin on Salon.com
• "The Little-Known Story of How a World War II Pilot Invented the Frisbee" by Emily White at Sports and Service

Transcript

[Nick Martell]

Wondery subscribers can listen to the best idea yet, early and ad free right now.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[Nick Martell]

Wondery. Jack, have you ever heard of the term phonoesthetics?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Phonoesthetics.

[Nick Martell]

Can I introduce you to this concept right here?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I'd love to hear it, Nick. Okay.

[Nick Martell]

Phono aesthetics are the art of understanding the pleasantness of the sound of words.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The very interesting.

[Nick Martell]

It's almost like a lingual asmr. Studies show that words with the letter B in them make us think about round shapes.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Like bounce makes me think of a ball.

[Nick Martell]

You can't get this out of your head now. Or K. Words make you think of sharp shapes.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I'm thinking kangaroo. And I guess their tail is sharp.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah. You know what I'm getting at here? Do you have, like, a favorite word? I feel like there's something inside of you that like is a word you deeply connect with. Cause you feel that word.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Well, when I was growing up playing wiffle ball, I would scream Yahtzee when I hit a homeboy. Wrong. That is definitely a word I like. Okay, what's your favorite phono aesthetic word?

[Nick Martell]

You know, Jack, it may be the subject of today's show because we happen to be diving into the story of one of the best words to say in the history of language. The Frisbee. It's a flying saucer that you command.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Frisbee's the way to lots of fun.

[Nick Martell]

For everyone of the family. Since its debut in the 1950s, hundreds of millions of Frisbees have been sold worldwide. Some sources claim the figure stands at more than 300 million.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

300 million would mean more Frisbees have been sold than the number of official basketballs, footballs, and baseballs sold combined. Just think about how many Frisbees you lost as a kid. Then factor in all the conference totes and branded swag bags you've been given for free that included a Frisbee or the generic flying discs. Because the lawyers said we are not technically a Frisbee, but we're basically a Frisbee.

[Nick Martell]

But turns out the Frisbee has also given rise to at least five different sports, including Ultimate Beach, Ultimate Guts, Freestyle, and of course, Disc golf. This flying plastic disc, it fascinates us because it's a product of mainstream capitalism. But in many ways, it's also rooted in, dare we say, the alternative lifestyles of socialism.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Bold claim, but we actually have evidence to back it up. The Frisbee has been a toy, a counterculture symbol, a serious athletic tool, and even a flying urn.

[Nick Martell]

Today we'll learn how a baked treat led to the creation of one of our favorite pastimes. How a beach gimmick became a global obsession.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And for the physics geeks out there, yeah, we'll dabble in some elementary aerodynamics, too, that you'll probably correct us in the comments about. Plus, we'll explore why the best product.

[Nick Martell]

Names don't describe your product at all. They just feel good in your mouth. Turns out the only thing more unpredictable than a Frisbee in the wind is the story behind it.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Because much like a Frisbee, this episode ends up in a totally different place than where you expected it to land.

[Nick Martell]

Here is why the Frisbee is the.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Best idea yet.

[Nick Martell]

From Wondery and T Boy. I'm Nick Martell.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And I'm Jack Crevici Kramer.

[Nick Martell]

And this is the best idea yet. The untold origin stories of the products you're obsessed with, and the bold risk.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Takers who made them go viral.

[Nick Martell]

I got that feeling again.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Something familiar but new.

[Nick Martell]

We got it coming to you.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I got that feeling. Change the game in one move.

[Nick Martell]

Here's how they broke all the.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Hey.

[Cassie Depechel]

I'm Cassie Depechel, host of Wondery's podcast Against the Odds in our new season. It's August 3rd, 1991. A cruise ship sails into a brutal storm off South Africa's Wild coast and soon starts flooding. But with no leadership in sight, the ship's entertainers take charge, leading a desperate evacuation before Oceanos sinks. Listen to against the Odds on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Nick Martell]

It's a warm spring day on the quad of Middlebury College in Vermont. The grass is lush, the conversation is easy, and the syrup is mapley. Jack. Can you picture it?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I can taste it, Nick. Also, we should disclose that's where you and I met. Nick and I were freshman year college roommates at Middlebury College. That's right.

[Nick Martell]

But besties, the scene we're talking about right now is a bit before our time because it's 1939, and right now there is a distinctive scent drifting across the green.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I'm getting hints of apple and is that cinnamon?

[Nick Martell]

Yes, it is cinnamon, Jack, because it is the mouthwatering aroma of freshly baked pie. Groups of hungry students are spread out across the quad and they're sharing delicious hot off the truck pie.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

What a wonderful scene.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, that is delightful. A simpler time, if you will. They eat, they laugh, but when the last slices are gone, there's no Post pie nap. Instead, the students spring to their feet. They scatter across the lawn, and they start flinging the empty pie tins at each other. One throws another, catches, and then sends it sailing to the next person in a circle.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So golfers yell four after they drive their ball, and it slices off course. These students have their own warning call for their flying object, and they get it from the words that are embossed into the pie tins. F, R, I, S, B, I, E. Frisbee. That's the name of the Connecticut company that bakes the pies. And note that spelling, by the way, the Frisbee pie company ends with ie, not ee. And that single letter difference will be important later in our story.

[Nick Martell]

We cover lots of origin stories on this pod. This one, however, is particularly close to our heart because it's also a story that Middlebury College takes very seriously. But it is not undisputed.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Middlebury College says its Delta Upsilon fraternity invented the pie tin frisbeeing during a road trip in 1939. Basically, when their car blew a tire, they passed the time waiting for it to be fixed by tossing around leftover fruit pie tins. Sounds like Middlebury was just awash in pies back then.

[Nick Martell]

But at least there is one other origin story, Jack, and it begins in New Haven over Yale, which claims they are the place where frisbee throwing was in fact, invented.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Of course they did.

[Nick Martell]

Others say it actually started among workers at the frisbee pie factory itself.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Well, Yale's Wikipedia page doesn't have room for frisbee origin story. Middlebury's does. They put up a statute in 1989 to cement their claim as the true origin of the frisbee. It's a bronze statue of a dog catching a frisbee, and you can see it right there on the green in front of Monroe Hall.

[Nick Martell]

All right, origin story case close in the eyes of these impartial judges. But back to the first half of the 20th century. Whatever the origin of pie tin throwing, it catches on beyond Middlebury and beyond Yale.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

At colleges across the Northeast, students are flinging pie tins across campus greens. And from frat house window to the other frat house window. The game sticks. And so does that frisbee, but only in a kind of loose regional way. For the next few decades, frisbee throwing remains a quirky New England pastime, like sharing your favorite movie quote from Good Will Hunting or debating which color of pastel red is better, Nantucket red or Maine lobster.

[Nick Martell]

That is, until a pair teenage sweethearts on the other side of the country independently discovered the joys of hurling cookware at each other's faces. It's Thanksgiving, 1937, in lovely Los Angeles, California, and a teenage couple, Fred Morrison and Lucille Ney. They need a break from their family, so they duck outside to get some exercise. And they start playing a game of catch with the metal lid from a popcorn tube. The game is fun, but it ends too soon because the thin metal dents too easily. After just a few throws, it's wobbling through the air like Oscar the Grouch's trash can lid. So when they play next, they swap out the lid for something more robust. A cake pan. Now, whenever the couple goes out to the beach in Santa Monica instead of sunbathing or surfing, they're tossing tin.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Saturday afternoon, cake pan toss becomes their thing. And they get pretty good at it, too. Fred effortlessly starts sending this metal disc arcing into the clear blue sky. And then Lucille take a few graceful strides across the sand, plucks the platter out of the air, and then casts it back to Fred.

[Nick Martell]

On this very particular day, a stranger stops by to admire Fred and Lucille's new game. He stands for a few minutes, transfixed. And then he approaches them. And what does he ask?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Jack, he says, how much? Pointing at the cake tin in Fred's hand.

[Nick Martell]

Fred is confused. He's looking puzzled. Lucille. She quickly stifles a laugh. She can't believe it.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The cake tin.

[Nick Martell]

Exactly. One you can get in pretty much any store. They only sell for a nickel. Like, is this guy messing with them?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

No, he looks serious. He's making a proposition.

[Nick Martell]

So Fred decides to have a little fun. It only costs him a nickel, but the price he names is a quarter.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

To Fred and Lucille's amazement, the guy reaches into his pocket and hands them a quarter. Fred gives him the cake tin and the guy takes it over to his family. Pretty soon, he's tossing that tin around on the beach with his kids.

[Nick Martell]

So Fred goes full founder mode after that incident, and he sets up shop right there on the Santa Monica boardwalk. He starts buying pans for 5 cents and then flipping them for a quarter.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This quietly turns into a profitable little side hustle. Fred and Lucille start showing up at parks and beaches all over la, selling this cake plate game right off the sand. And here's the thing. Fred and Lucille aren't trying to hide the fact that they're making a ridiculously good 400% markup on each tin sold.

[Nick Martell]

Cha ching, cha ching.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

In fact, to juice this profit puppy a Little bit more. They add on some branding. They name these things flying cake pans.

[Nick Martell]

Everyone knows that cake tins only cost a nickel at the store. But when people see them soaring through the air, when they hear the laughter, when they witness the crowds, it flips a switch. Suddenly, they don't want to wait until their trip to Sears. They want their flying cake pan right there and right then. And you know What? They'll pay 25 cents. Five times the cost for the privilege and the convenience.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's instant, visible, and most importantly, contagious fun. That's the power of in the moment marketing, when your product is being demoed by happy customers all around you. So you source the product for 5 cents and you can sell the convenience for 25 cents. It's arbitrage with style.

[Nick Martell]

And as the sales grow, so does Fred and Lucille's love for each other. And they get married in 1939. But then history crashes the party in the shape of World War II. Fred joins the Air Force to serve his country and becomes a pilot. Flying a P47 Thunderbolt, he flies 56 successful bombing missions over Italy. But on his 57th, disaster strikes. His plane is shot down. Fred survives, but he's captured behind enemy lines.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Fred spends 48 days in a German POW camp before he is liberated by the Allied forces. Now, most people would need a bit of rest after spending time as a prisoner of war, but not Fred. When he gets home, he picks up right where he left off. Except this time, he has an understanding of aerodynamics, thanks to years as a pilot. Turns out flying a fighter plane gives you a feel for how things should move through the air.

[Nick Martell]

Nick makes sense. Jack. So here's what Fred does next. He redesigns the disc. He adjusts the rim, he slims the body, and he names this new model the Whirlaway. This name, it's got momentum, baby. It sounds fast. It kind of describes what it does as you say it.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It belongs also to that charming category of mid 20th century hybrid sounding brand names. They're a little bit sleek, a little bit space age, and they give you a sense of the product and they're just fun to say, hey, I like Kodachrome.

[Nick Martell]

It's a word so good Paul Simon named a song after it.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Or alum of the show, the Stratocaster.

[Nick Martell]

Despite the success of those other names, in this case, the name doesn't stick. But he has made another major update that does. The material the Whirl Away has left behind, its pie tin heritage. To get with the Times, because now it's made with plastic.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Plastic is the new material showing up everywhere. At this point in time. Factories that once made military gear need a new purpose. So they start cranking out plastic toys, plastic packaging, plastic furniture, plastic just for plastic sake. Nick, if you can mold it, you can plastic it now.

[Nick Martell]

We actually saw the same thing in our Lego episode. Like, they literally pivoted the entire family business from wood blocks to plastic blocks and totally changed Lego's destiny. Plastic is the future, and it's cheap.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Another upside for the whirlaway. Plastic is lighter, which makes for better lift.

[Nick Martell]

So Fred starts selling plastic discs up and down the whole west coast. He's driving up the 101, hidden state fair, school events, even prom night over at Fresno High. Any place he can demo the whirl away, he's demoing it. And the people, they're amazed. These discs fly so straight, some spectators assume it's a trick using invisible wires.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But while mouths gape open in wonder, wallets remain shut and business never really takes off. Fred's beach home sales pitch just doesn't translate to school auditoriums and trade shows.

[Nick Martell]

It's sad, but Fred puts his dreams for the whirlaway to the side and instead takes a job as a carpenter. But the flying disc dream is still spinning in the back of Fred's mind. He hasn't given up. He just hasn't quite landed it yet. There is a concept Jack and I refer to as minnovations. Small tweaks that actually have a big impact. They're mini, but they're innovations. And Fred is about to make a design minivation that will change the trajectory of the flying disc. Fred adds a raised hub in the center with a gentle downward slope toward the edges.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This isn't about aesthetics, but aerodynamics, because that slope changes the disc into an airfoil. An airfoil is a structure that's curved to create more lift than drag. Think of an airplane. They've got that gentle curve over the top and a flatter surface underneath. That shape makes the air move faster over the top than it does underneath. And that difference in pressure is actually what creates the miracle of flight.

[Nick Martell]

So you can thank the airfoil the next time you are stuck in coach. The in flight entertainment system is broken, and the person next to you just slipped off their shoes. You're experiencing the miracle of flight.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And Fred has figured out how to take the principle of an airplane's wing and and put it in your hands in the shape of a sloped disc.

[Nick Martell]

This new design gives the Whirlaway. More lift. So when you throw it with spin, it can fly, baby, fly. And it only comes down once it loses momentum. So instead of a short toss between a small circle of friends on the quad, you can now huck this thing all the way to the other side of campus.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Fred's design doesn't fly as far as a modern day Frisbee does. But the changes he makes to the Whirlaway give it a whole new look. One that resembles something that in 1955 is all over the news.

[Nick Martell]

That's right. In the mid-1950s, news reports of UFOs and aliens crash landing in New Mexico leads to a new American obsession. Flying saucers. They appear in comic books, campy movies, and conspiracy theories at the Thanksgiving dinner table. So Fred taps straight into that zeitgeist and renames the whirl away the Pluto Platter.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Pluto Platter? That name is an affront to alliteration.

[Nick Martell]

The aerodynamics are upgraded, the name downgraded, but the sales continue to stay flat as a pie tent. Remember the good old days pre war when he was enjoying a 400% profit margin on Santa Monica Pier? Now Fred's losing money.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Fred's got the flight mechanic spinning, but his marketing mechanics are stalling out.

[Nick Martell]

Just as he's on the verge of packing it all in, another circle shaped obsession takes over the country. Forget alien invasions. This is something even weirder.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Just like the Pluto Platter. It's round, it's plastic, it's played outside, and it's good for your health, although it makes you look absolutely ridiculous.

[Nick Martell]

But it does give Fred an idea. Maybe the key to selling a flying saucer is riding the wave of a different, more popular circular plastic toy. One that has a huge hole in the middle of it.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Movie night, date night, or solo marathon, IMDb is your ultimate entertainment companion. Discover new favorites, rate what you've watched, and never miss an episode with the free IMDb app. Curate your watch list with a tap.

[Nick Martell]

Get personalized notifications for your favorite shows.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And find your next must watch movie or series.

[Nick Martell]

From blockbusters to hidden gems, we've got you covered.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Download the app now, register for free.

[Nick Martell]

And find your next favorite. It's 1958, and America has officially lost its mind. And it's not fear of alien invasions or losing the space race. No, the source of this nationwide cray cray is a hollow ring of plastic that turns your torso into a carnival ride. It's the Hula Hoop.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Across the country, sidewalks are jammed up with kids spinning plastic Hoops around their waists like human gyroscopes. Moms are hula hooping in their driveways. Dads are pulling mussels at backyard barbecues.

[Nick Martell]

Hospitals even start reporting a rise in waist and neck injuries. It's called Hula Hoop Syndrome.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The Hula hoop is a cultural phenomenon. There's not one, but two versions of the same Hula Hoop song in the Billboard Hot 100 that year.

[Nick Martell]

In just six months, 120 million hula hoops are sold at $1.98 per hoop.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Which is $22 in today's money.

[Nick Martell]

And that's absolutely massive considering the US population is just one hundred and seventy million people at the time. Run math on it. And it means two hoops are sold for every three Americans. And this is happening in just six months.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That is market penetration at a speed we've never seen before.

[Nick Martell]

So when Fred Morrison starts seeing Hula Hoops appear in the neighborhood, he's intrigued. Here's a toy that's even more simple than his Pluto Platter. You can't walk to the grocery store without having to dodge Hula Hoopers. But you hardly ever see anyone with Pluto Platters throwing them around in the wild.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Whoever is selling the Hula Hoop is getting something right. So Fred decides to find out just who they are. Turns out it's a little outfit called Wham O.

[Nick Martell]

Great name.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Wham O is based in Pasadena, California, which is just a short ride up the freeway from where Fred and Lucille live in Glendale.

[Nick Martell]

Was founded in 1948 by two college buddies. Their first product was a Slingshot. But Wham O ain't no one hit wonder.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Over the years, Wham O brings us the Slip N Slide, Silly String, the Hacky Sack, and the Boogie Board. Basically, if it's fun, low cost, and you have wonderful memories playing with this thing as a child, it's probably a Waymo product.

[Nick Martell]

But let's return to the late 1950s. The hula hoop is Waymo's next big product after the Slingshot. And like the Slingshot, which has been around since David took down Goliath, they didn't invent it. No. Wham O refined it based on a bamboo hoop they'd seen down in Australia.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So Wham O rolls out a viral marketing campaign way ahead of its time. They bring hoops to parks and schoolyards around Los Angeles and tell kids, if you can keep it spinning, you can take it home. It's the greatest free sample giveaway in history. Combined with a form of gamification, they're not just handing you a hoop. They're challenging you to do a hula whammo.

[Nick Martell]

They got a track record, the marketing muscle, and a sixth sense for viral hits that the Pluto Platter needs to get to the next level. So Fred puts on his best shirt, grabs a stack of Pluto platters, and hits the freeway.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Next stop, Wham O headquarters.

[Nick Martell]

Fred rolls up to Wham O headquarters with a trunk full of Pluto platters and a heart full of hope. He leans hard on his years of experience selling flying pie tins and the courage he honed dodging bullets in the skies of wartime Europe. And after an impromptu Pluto platter toss in the Wham O parking lot, Fred closes the deal like a pack of golden retrievers. The Wham O execs love this flying disc.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Wham O buys the rights to the Pluto platter designed from Fred. And Fred steps back from our story with a nice little payday and a cut of future sales. Let's just say his name is in the national toy hall of fame today.

[Nick Martell]

Not too shabby.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Now it's up to Wham O to make sure those Pluto platters finally go into orbit.

[Nick Martell]

But when Wham O focuses all its viral marketing power on the Pluto platter sails go from flat to just as flat.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

We have found a Pluto platter plateau.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah. Whamo knows there's only so long they can keep the hula hoop craze spinning. They need this Pluto platter to be their next breakout viral sensation. And it seemed like it was going to be the perfect next hit. But there is just something missing from this flying disc.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So when Wham O gets wind that college kids in New England have been tossing pie pans at each other for decades, they go up north to investigate. And that's when they hear for the first time, yelled across the quad, frisbee.

[Nick Martell]

It turns out the frisbee pie factory itself has closed. But the name lives on. That's right. That pie tin throwing. It's still going strong. It just happens to be completely uncommercialized. Frisbees in New England, they're like piles of leaves in the fall. Just free, fun for all.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Now, if you just paid a lot of money to acquire a product and then found out the product already exists, in fact, people use the product for free. You might be depressed, but not the Wham O execs. Because taking niche pastimes and turning them into mass crazes, that's the Wham O way. And seeing all these kids playing Frisbee isn't a Problem. In their eyes, it's actually a proof of concept.

[Nick Martell]

These kids, they're all still using pie tins. No one's actually made a refined disc built especially for tossing. And that means there's no real competing product.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Wham O sees an opportunity. And they also know a good name when they hear it. And with the Frisbee Pie Company out of business, the name is up for grabs. Just to be sure, though, the lawyers asked them to swap out the IE ending for a double E. You gotta.

[Nick Martell]

Keep the lawyers happy, Jack.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And just like that, they came up with one of the most enduring, most evocative, most true to product names in history. Frisbee. With a new name and Wham O's marketing genius behind it, the Frisbee officially launches in 1958.

[Nick Martell]

And those sales are okay. It's still eclipsed by the Hula Hoop. I can't believe this.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Can a Hula Hoop eclipse something, Jack?

[Nick Martell]

Let's leave that one for Neil DeGrasse Tyson. But what's important here is that the Hula Hoop craze eventually does start to cool. And the Frisbee is still failing to pick up the slack. So Wham O is ready to shelve the Frisbee as their warehouse is starting to pile high with these unsold discs. But then a guy gets in touch with Wham O, a former deep sea welder with a burning ambition to be a toy inventor. This is Ed Hedrick. And yes, you heard us right. His former occupation was welding metal underwater in the sea. But Ed also has got a deep fixation with toys and a dream of becoming an inventor.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

In 1964, Ed walks into Wham O and asks for a job, but they tell him we're not hiring. So Ed makes them an let me work for free three months. If I'm not useful by then, no hard feelings. I'll walk away. And Wham O says, sure, why not?

[Nick Martell]

So Ed gets his first assignment. Figure out what the heck to do with these mountains of surplus Hula Hoops and unsold Frisbees just sitting on the shelves.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Ed hits the warehouse. He spends the afternoon of day one throwing these Frisbees and taking careful notes after each throw, he quickly notices that the Frisbees fly high, thanks to that airfoil design of Fred's, but they still wobble through the air.

[Nick Martell]

If he can eliminate that wobble, then the Frisbees will fly straighter and they'll fly further. Plus, you'll be able to throw them with much more accuracy.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Basically, it would become a better proposal. Exactly.

[Nick Martell]

Soon, he starts tweaking. Ed adds concentric rings to the top for better stability in flight. He starts fine tuning the shape for a smoother glide. And then he dials in the balance a little bit more. Well, Wham O takes notice of Ed's innovations to the Frisbee. And you know what? They love it so much, they offer him a job as head of research and development.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That's right. This guy went from unpaid intern to head of research and development in less than a year.

[Nick Martell]

And Jack, as soon as he settles down into that sweet corner office, he gets ready to reveal the new, improved Frisbee to the world. But there's just one last change that he wants to make. Not to the disc, but to its positioning.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Up until now, Wham O has been marketing the Frisbee mainly to kids. But N has hit upon something while developing this improved version. The new Frisbee flies like a precision instrument. There's more skill than luck. Now. This kind of balance appeals not only to kids, but more so to adults.

[Nick Martell]

So when Wham O launches the newest version, they sell it in both the sporting goods section and the toy aisle. And Ed himself becomes the ambassador for this new adult style sport that bridges the kid old divide. He even goes on the Johnny Carson show to give America a taste of how to feel throw a Frisbee. Which makes Ed a minor celebrity.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Anyone who sees Ed throw a Frisbee can tell there's something special about him. The disc never wobbles as it sails with perfect accuracy into the hands of the person catching it.

[Nick Martell]

His Frisbee throws are so accurate, so wobble free, that Ed earns the nickname Steady Ed. Beaches and parks across the country are filled with bare feet, tie dye, and the sound of acoustic guitars. Overhead, flying discs trace lazy arcs across the sky. It's the early 1970s, and the Frisbee has taken off not just as a toy, but as a symbol for an entire generation.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The Frisbee catches on with hippies and other non conformists because it feels like a countercultural answer to traditional sports.

[Nick Martell]

Yes, it does.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

You don't need cleats and shoulder pads to play. You need bare feet, an open space, and an open mind. It appeals to anyone who feels left out of the usual rules and teams, or, as Steady Ed puts it himself, the emblem of the unruly. Just like Birkenstocks and Dr. Pepper, the Frisbee is finding an in with the counterculture.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, but we should point out, Yetis, it's not just flower Children and people on the fringe who are into Frisbee because Ed's efforts to promote Frisbee as a piece of serious sports equipment to adults, that's also started to have an impact.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

New games start forming as people spontaneously come up with new sets of rules.

[Nick Martell]

How about a game called Guts, which is like dodgeball but with a Frisbee like you are trying to catch a disc that someone is hurling at your body as fast as they can.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

That takes guts, hence the name.

[Nick Martell]

Then there's freestyle, which took Frisbee from a casual throw about to a carefully crafted art form.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Think trick throws, spinning catches, and competitive tournaments with judges who do scoring.

[Nick Martell]

Okay, but Jack, maybe the biggest leap of Frisbee's evolution of all is ultimate. Invented in 1968 by a group of.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

New Jersey high schoolers, ultimate is kind of a growth hack because it turns this two person activity, throwing a Frisbee back and forth, into a team sport.

[Nick Martell]

Because it's played between two teams trying to score points by passing a Frisbee into the end zone. The game is directionally similar to football or rugby, but with way more slender players and a lot fewer bruises.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And today, it's played in over 100 countries. A 2012 report said that the US had over 5 million Ultimate Frisbee players.

[Nick Martell]

Can you sprinkle on more context for us, please?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Nick? That's more than lacrosse and hockey, your two sports combined.

[Nick Martell]

That was not the context I was looking for, man.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But even with guys, freestyle and ultimate, catching fire across America and the world, the Frisbee isn't done evolving.

[Cassie Depechel]

Today is the worst day of Abby's life. The 17 year old cradles her newborn son in her arms.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

They all saw how much I loved him.

[Nick Martell]

They didn't have to take him from me.

[Cassie Depechel]

Between 1945 and the early 1970s, families shipped their pregnant teenage daughters to maternity homes and forced them to secretly place their babies for adoption in hidden corners across America. It's still happening. My parents had me locked up in.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The godparent home against my will.

[Cassie Depechel]

They worked with them to manipulate me.

[Nick Martell]

And to steal my son away from me.

[Cassie Depechel]

The godparent home is the brainchild of controversial preacher Jerry Faulkner, the father of the Modern Evangelical Rite and the founder of Liberty University, where powerful men, emboldened by their faith, determine who gets to be a parent and who must give their child away. Follow Liberty Lost on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Nick Martell]

Let's rewind back to 1965. A Parks and Rec worker named George Sappenfield Has a problem in one of those playgrounds that he oversees. You see this thing? It's stocked with a supply of frisbees and hula hoops, and nobody's using them.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I believe the technical term for this problem is a double Wham O.

[Nick Martell]

Yes, it is, Jack. And this happens to go against George's training as a parks and rec worker. He needs to make the most of all his resources. So seeing these hula hoops just lying unused, it's making George uneasy.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

One day, when George is playing a round of golf, an idea hits him. What if he sets up a game like golf, but using frisbees instead of balls?

[Nick Martell]

Interesting.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And instead of holes in the ground, there'd be hula hoops hanging in the air.

[Nick Martell]

All right, I like where this is going.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And just like with golf, you could create a bunch of holes, goals, par threes, par fours, par fives. And the fewer Frisbee throws it takes for you to get it through the hoop, the better.

[Nick Martell]

Just like golf, you'll be immensely frustrated.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

At the end of it.

[Nick Martell]

Well, that weekend, George sets up a game at the playground. And you know what? The kids love it.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

When George eventually becomes the parks rec supervisor, he continues to play this Frisbee golf game with friends and park visitors. Then George decides to take things first further by pitching Whammo. The idea of a Frisbee golf tournament.

[Nick Martell]

Now, Whammo is so impressed with this idea that they offer George a part time job as a promotions consultant. And quickly, George becomes one of the company's most passionate evangelists. He also gets to know Steady Ed, who by now is a VP at Wham O and a pretty big deal. George convinces Ed to spotlight Frisbee golf at a Frisbee event that Wham O happens to be organizing.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Ed agrees, and in preparation for the event, he gives Frisbee golf a try. And he's into it.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, Ed knows the Frisbee better than anyone at this point.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

He's got a great eye for the sport.

[Nick Martell]

Steady Ed loves the mix of fun, skill, and strategy that Frisbee golf brings to the table.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And Ed also sees how Frisbee golf could be good for Wham O's bottom line. Regular golfers need a range of clubs for different distances and surfaces. And Ed thinks that Frisbee golfers could also have a range of Frisbees for different distances and wind conditions. And that would mean more Frisbee sales.

[Nick Martell]

For Wham O, Turning Frisbee golfers into repeat rabbits, buying more and more of the product.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

But Shockingly, Wham O isn't into this idea. In fact, they refused to let Ed use the trademark word Frisbee in any of the marketing for this awesome new golf game. All right, Jack.

[Nick Martell]

I was shocked when I heard this. Like, why would Wham O stop things now? They've basically said yes to everything.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It's very un whammo of them. But Ed doesn't let it stop him. He comes up with a new name for the sport. Disc golf. And he decides to quit Wham O and dedicate himself to a sport that 99.99% of the country has never even heard of.

[Nick Martell]

Steady Ed decides to set up the Disc Golf association, and then he starts selling his own discs specifically crafted for disc golf. Also, he designs a special chain link disc golf basket, which is even better than a hula hoop because it actually catches the disc. Finally, he ends up setting up disc golf parks across the country.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Disc golf catches on, and by the time Ed passes away in 2002, it's played professionally, internationally, and obsessively by millions of people. Today, there's more than 10,000 disc golf courses in the US plus another 6,000 worldwide.

[Nick Martell]

But the detail that really tells the depth of Ed's commitment is that Ed managed to continue his passion for disc golf into eternity. That's right. In his will, Ed asked for his ashes to be molded into a limited run of disc golf discs.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Now, most of these Ed discs go to his friends and family. Others were sold to raise funds for the Steady Ed Memorial Disc Golf Museum in Georgia.

[Nick Martell]

Because, as Ed liked to say, when we Frisbeterians die, we don't go to purgatory. We just land on the roof and lie there.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

I love that line, Jack.

[Nick Martell]

When I pass away, if you don't cremate me and turn me into a microphone, then this podcast is missing a legacy, man.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Now, as for Wham O, they're still in business, and they still own the patent to the original Frisbee design, as well as Steady Ed's improved version.

[Nick Martell]

Wham O even still has the trademark on the Frisbee name itself, the name that started it off.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Although there are countless other flying discs, and the market as a whole is worth $1 billion. So from a pie tin to a plastic disc, sold in over 300 million units worldwide. That's the story of the Frisbee.

[Nick Martell]

So, Jack, I gotta ask you, now that you heard it, care to leap into the air and catch a takeaway for us?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Here's my favorite takeaway of this story. Get your Product's name added to the dictionary. Now, Nick, this all starts with name storming, which is brainstorming. But for your name, figuring out what to call your product or your business. And generally, you have two options. You can A, pick a name that describes the product, or B, pick a name that's completely unrelated and maybe even made up.

[Nick Martell]

This story is a great case study since Fred tried both of these things.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

He started with descriptive names like the Pluto Platter, the Flying Saucer, and the Whirlwind. And none of those names worked, actually.

[Nick Martell]

But when Wham O went with Frisbee, a word with no dictionary definition at all, that is when the product really started to take off.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

The name Frisbee worked because it sounded like the game itself. It evoked a feeling. And Wham O saw just how much those kids in New England loved to gleefully yell Frisbee when they were flicking the disc.

[Nick Martell]

Now, we should point out, Jack, made up names can be risky.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Yes, they can. It's a risk when people don't know what the word means. It also may sound silly and an unspellable name. That's like smacking your own brand in the face. But made up names can also be the key to success. Here's the proof. The word Frisbee eventually made it into the dictionary alongside other category defining brand names like Tupperware, Bandaid, and Google, which.

[Nick Martell]

Gets bonus points for also becoming a verb.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

So make it a goal to get your brand name added to the dictionary. What about you, Nick? What's your takeaway?

[Nick Martell]

Why give a free sample when you can give a free challenge? Wham O used a form of guerrilla marketing that was actually way ahead of its time, because instead of just handing out hula hoops, they challenged people with hula hoops. Remember in parks and schoolyards and on street corners, they would say to passersby, hey, if you can keep this thing spinning, you can just keep it take it home.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Those pop up challenges were cheap and effective. They drew crowds and they built a buzz.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, and the people who passed the test and would then show off to their friends, who then likely want a hula hoop of their own because they'd just been challenged. And that strategy turned every giveaway into a story. It turned it into an experience and a little bit of word of mouth magic. This is why you should make your giveaways into challenges. But Jack, before we go, it is time for our absolute favorite part of the show, the best facts yet.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

These are the hero facts, the surprises and the statistics that we discovered in our research, but just couldn't fit into the story.

[Nick Martell]

All right, Jack, since full disclosure, I actually can't throw a Frisbee. Why don't you kick these things off?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

In 1968, the US military spent the equivalent of over $3 million today testing whether Frisbees could be used to drop flares over enemy territory. The hope that these lightweight discs might replace parachutes. But the result was a lot of lost Frisbees, probably still resting on the rooftops in Rotterdam.

[Nick Martell]

All right, so, Jack, I got a fact for you. You remember how we said ultimate was created at a high school in Jersey?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Yeah.

[Nick Martell]

Well, one of the teen inventors was named Joel Silver. Does that name ring a bell to you at all?

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

It does not.

[Nick Martell]

Okay. Joel Silver went on to produce Die Hard and the Matrix. What? Yeah.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Well, I gotta say, he missed a crossover opportunity. Bruce Willis taking out that gang of German terrorists with a Frisbee hit to the head.

[Nick Martell]

I mean, I wonder if Neo can dodge Frisbees is great. Graceful as he dodges bullets, man.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And that is why Frisbee is the best idea yet. Coming up on the next episode of the best idea yet. How a French tire company accidentally became the world's most feared restaurant critic.

[Nick Martell]

Stars will be awarded and egos will be shattered as we dig deep into the story of the Michelin Guide.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And if you have an idea for our next episode after that that let us know in the comments or if.

[Nick Martell]

You'Ve got your own takeaways on today's story about the Frisbee, drop them in the comments. We'll respond right back to you. The best idea yet is a production of Wondery hosted by me, Nick Martel.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And me, Jack Crevici Kramer. Our senior producers are Matt Beagle and Chris Gautier.

[Nick Martell]

Peter Arcuni is our additional senior producer.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Our senior managing producer is Nick Ryan. And Taylor Snow Sniffin is our managing producer.

[Nick Martell]

Our producer and researcher is H. Conley.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

This episode was written and produced by Adam Skuse.

[Nick Martell]

We use many sources in our research, including how the Frisbee took flight by Ben van hoovelin on salon.com and the little known story of how a World War II pilot invented the Frisbee by Emily White at Sports and Service.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Sound design and mixing by Kelly Krameric.

[Nick Martell]

Fact checking by Erica Janik.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Music supervision by Sky, Scott Velazquez and Jolina Garcia for frees on sync.

[Nick Martell]

Our theme song is Got that Feeling Again by Blackilac. Executive producers for Nick and Jack Studios.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Are me, Nick Martell, and me, Jack Revici. Kramer.

[Nick Martell]

Executive producers for Wondery are Dave Easton, Jenny Lauer, Beckman, Aaron o' Flaherty and Marshall Louis.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Every big moment starts with a big dream. But what happens when that big dream turns out to be a big flop? From Wondery and Ill Media, I'm Misha Brown and this is the Big Flop. Every week, comedians join me to chronicle the biggest flubs, fails and blunders of all time. Like Quibi.

[Nick Martell]

It's kind of like when you give.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

Yourself your own nickname and you try.

[Nick Martell]

To like get other people people to do it.

[Jack Crevici Kramer]

And the 2019 movie adaptation of Cats. Like, if I'm watching the dancing and I'm noticing the feet aren't touching the ground, there's something wrong with the movie. Find out what happens when massive hype turns into major fiasco. Enjoy the Big Flop on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to the Big Flop early and ad free on wondery plus get started with your free trial at wondery.com plus.