🐢Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: The “Dumbest” Best Idea Yet | 28

Summary

The Best Idea Yet: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Episode Summary

Hosts: Nick Martell and Jack Crivici-Kramer
Episode: 🐢 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: The “Dumbest” Best Idea Yet | 28
Release Date: April 22, 2025

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1. Introduction to the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (TMNT) Phenomenon

In this episode of The Best Idea Yet, hosts Nick Martell and Jack Crivici-Kramer delve into the extraordinary journey of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles—from a modest self-published comic to a global multi-billion dollar franchise. They explore the creative genius and bold risks taken by the original creators, Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird, that turned what many considered a "dumb" idea into a cultural icon.

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2. The Humble Beginnings: Birth of an Idea

The story begins in November 1983 in Dover, New Hampshire, where two struggling artists, Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird, are trying to launch their illustration business, Mirage Studios. Frustrated by the lack of publisher interest in their initial work, they self-publish a comic titled Gobbledygook, which includes their first project, Fugitoid. Despite limited sales, their determination doesn’t wane.

Notable Quote:

"Forget about the best idea yet. These guys were going for the dumbest idea yet." — Nick Martell [00:59]

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3. The “Dumbest” Idea Takes Shape

One cold November night, amidst laughter and collaboration, Kevin sketches an oversized, humanoid turtle wearing a ninja mask. Initially dismissive, Peter encourages him to develop the concept further by adding more turtles and transforming them into a cohesive team. This spontaneous creation, combined with their penchant for absurdity, lays the foundation for what would become the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Notable Quote:

"This is the dumbest thing ever." — Jack Crivici-Kramer [08:11]

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4. From Self-Publishing to Breakthrough Success

Realizing the potential of their unique creation, Eastman and Laird invest their limited resources into professionally printing 3,200 copies of their inaugural TMNT comic. Their strategic marketing efforts, including an ad in Comics Buyer's Guide and a comprehensive press release campaign, lead to widespread media coverage. A pivotal article by United Press International ignites nationwide interest, resulting in sold-out sales and the necessity for additional print runs.

Notable Quote:

"A grabby name like this, it's actually something we call buzz branding." — Jack Crivici-Kramer [16:59]

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5. Licensing and the Road to Turtle Mania

The exponential growth of TMNT catches the attention of licensing agent Mark Friedman, who envisions extensive merchandising opportunities. Despite initial rejections from major toy companies like Mattel, Friedman secures a deal with Playmates Toys. By adapting the gritty comic to a more child-friendly animated series, complete with the iconic "Cowabunga" catchphrase, TMNT becomes a staple of 1980s pop culture.

Notable Quote:

"It's a beautiful moment in their startup journey." — Nick Martell [22:02]

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6. The Animated Series and Explosive Popularity

The animated TMNT series debuts in December 1987, perfectly timed for the holiday season. The show’s engaging characters, each distinguished by unique colored bandanas and personalities, resonate with children. The strategic adaptation—from violent scenes to humorous catchphrases like "Cowabunga"—ensures mass appeal, leading to Turtle Mania during the 1988 holiday shopping season. Playmates Toys capitalizes on this by producing a vast array of merchandise, including over 400 action figure designs.

Notable Quote:

"The Ninja Turtles franchise is like a kaleidoscope, changing colors and shapes every time you turn it, but each time staying so absurd that it works." — Jack Crivici-Kramer [37:39]

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7. Expanding into Feature Films

By March 1990, TMNT ventures into live-action films crafted with puppetry and animatronics, thanks to collaboration with Jim Henson’s Creature Shop. The first film garners critical and commercial success, grossing over $200 million worldwide against a modest budget. This success paves the way for subsequent sequels and solidifies TMNT’s position as a versatile and enduring brand across multiple media platforms.

Notable Quote:

"The hero stats, Facts and surprises we discovered in our research, but just couldn't fit into the story." — Nick Martell [40:07]

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8. Strain and Transformation of the Founders’ Partnership

As TMNT’s empire grows, the pressures of managing a vast licensing network strain the friendship between Eastman and Laird. Kevin relocates to California, while Peter remains in New England. Despite selling their shares—Kevin in 2000 and Peter in 2009—their legacy persists. The episode concludes with recent images of the founders reuniting at events like Comic Con, highlighting their enduring connection to their creation.

Notable Quote:

"They really did fulfill their dream. They've made their living from an idea born out of pure fun." — Jack Crivici-Kramer [38:51]

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9. Key Takeaways from the TMNT Story

Nick Martell: The Real Remix Effect
Martell discusses how TMNT exemplifies the "remix effect," where the original creators combined elements from various sources—such as Daredevil and Jack Kirby’s Captain America—to create something entirely new and engaging. This strategy not only fostered the initial success but also ensured the franchise's longevity through continuous adaptation across different media.

Jack Crivici-Kramer: Improv-Like Business Building
Crivici-Kramer draws parallels between improvisational comedy and entrepreneurial ventures. He emphasizes the importance of the "yes and" approach, where Eastman and Laird built upon each other's ideas without fear of judgment, maintaining momentum and creativity throughout their journey.

Notable Quotes:

"Building a company or starting a business is like doing improv. You have to say yes." — Jack Crivici-Kramer [39:10]
"Remixing content helps your product have a long, healthy life in the marketplace." — Nick Martell [40:20]

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10. Fascinating Facts About TMNT

• Tourism Ambassadors: In 2016, the Ninja Turtles served as official tourism ambassadors for New York City, promoting family visits and local attractions.
  “Did you know that Ninja Turtles were actually tourism ambassadors for the city back in 2016?” — Jack Crivici-Kramer [40:58]

• "Cowabunga" Origins: The catchphrase "Cowabunga" was adopted from the 1950s kids' show Howdy Doody before being popularized by surfers in California. Ironically, Eastman and Laird had to settle a lawsuit for $50,000 over its use.
  “The first Cowabunga was actually used in the 1950s kids show Howdy Doody before it was adopted by surfers in California.” — Nick Martell [41:18]

• Iconic Voice Actor: James Avery, who voiced Shredder in the original animated series, also starred as Uncle Phil in The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. He passed away in 2013, leaving behind an enduring legacy.
  “In the original animated TV show, Shredder was voiced by James Avery, an actor best known for his role as Uncle Phil.” — Jack Crivici-Kramer [41:46]

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Conclusion

The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles episode of The Best Idea Yet masterfully chronicles the unlikely rise of a franchise that began as a playful, almost "dumb" idea between two friends. Through creativity, strategic risk-taking, and relentless passion, Eastman and Laird transformed their whimsical vision into a multi-generational phenomenon. This episode not only celebrates their success but also imparts valuable business insights on innovation, branding, and adaptability.

For more intriguing backstories of your favorite products and the bold minds behind them, tune into The Best Idea Yet on the Wondery App or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Nick Martell]

Wondery subscribers can listen to the best idea yet early and ad free right now.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[Nick Martell]

Wondery. Hey, Jack, how many episodes of our daily show are we up to now?

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

1500 episodes. Okay.

[Nick Martell]

How many times we had to pause the podcast? We were laughing too hard.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

I have burned more calories recording our podcast from laughter than any physical activity I've ever been involved in.

[Nick Martell]

Well, Jack, I was thinking about this and so much of the inspiration for for us doing a daily business show are actually from improv comedy. So like the idea of like burstiness of working off the other person. There are no wrong answers kind of a thing.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Whatever the last person said, you say yes and then add your own spin to it.

[Nick Martell]

The yes and approach. That's it, Jack.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Laughter, joking around. It's the key ingredient that makes our show come to life. In fact, it was the key ingredient that made the subject of today's episode a massive success.

[Nick Martell]

Totally.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

It started as a scrappy self published.

[Nick Martell]

Comic book that would spawn TV shows, movies, video games, and a merchandising gold rush to become a multi billion dollar brand.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

But if it sounds like we're teeing up an episode about Marvel right now. Close. But no pepperoni, because we're talking about the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Or tmnt. If you know, you know.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, and I know, Jack. As a kid, I only wore Ninja Turtle underwear. Leonardo, donatello, Michelangelo and Raphael. 4. Crime fighting, pizza eating radioactive turtles named after Italian Renaissance artists and raised by a sewer rat with ninjutsu skills. It kind of sounds like a marketing mad lib, doesn't it, man?

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

It does. But the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles actually began as a self published black and white comic book in 1984, made by two broke artists just trying to make each other laugh.

[Nick Martell]

Forget about the best idea yet. These guys were going for the dumbest idea yet.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Not our judgment. That is straight from the creators themselves.

[Nick Martell]

But this so called dumb idea became the most successful self published creator owned comic in history. And they drew up a playbook that much, much larger franchises would follow.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Because before the mcu, there was the tmntu. And the craziest part, this story was one cocktail napkin away from never happening at all.

[Nick Martell]

We're going to go deep into the New York sewers for the Turtles origin.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Story and we'll be plumbing the inner workings of $16 billion comic book industry.

[Nick Martell]

Along the way, we'll find out how the remix effect can keep a business thriving.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

And how Juliet was wrong. A rose by any other name might not actually smell as sweet.

[Nick Martell]

Jack, hold the anchovies. Here's why Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is the best idea yet from Wondery and T Boy. I'm Nick Martell.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

And I'm Jack Trivici Kramer.

[Nick Martell]

And this is the best idea yet. The untold origin stories of the products you're obsessed obsessed with and the bold.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Risk takers who made them go viral. We'd like to thank our presenting sponsor, Amazon Yetis.

[Nick Martell]

Have you come up with your own best idea yet? Well, you're going to need a new notebook to write it down and you can get that on Amazon.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Does your idea involve pajamas, energy drinks, toilet paper?

[Nick Martell]

Jack Somehow I've used all those things in one single day.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Save the everyday with deals from Amazon.

[Nick Martell]

On a cold November night in the living room of a little clapboard house, the glowing light of a TV set flickers across the walls from the street. You can faintly hear the theme song from Love Connection fade away. Inside that living room, everything is brown, including the old wallpaper of crisscross and ivy. The only decorations are a calendar, some sketches, and a handwritten checklist held up by a couple of thumbtacks.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

This place doesn't look much like a comic book startup run by 220 somethings. But spoiler, that's exactly what this is.

[Nick Martell]

We are in Dover, New Hampshire. It's 1983, and the 20 somethings in question are Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird. The house is Peter's, which he shares with his girlfriend and a few roommates, including Kevin, who's staying while he and Peter work to get their illustration business off the ground. Peter is 29, with glasses, a high forehead, and a wardrobe that leans business casual. An art school grad, Peter is supporting himself barely as a commercial illustrator. If you're a supermarket chain and you need some beautifully drawn broccoli, then Peter, he's your guy.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Kevin is eight years younger, just 21, with a mop of curly black hair. He's been doing odd jobs since high school, making comics on the side, and his most reliable gig is as a line cook at a Maine lobster restaurant during the summers.

[Nick Martell]

Now, Peter, he's the introverted one. Kevin, he's the outgoing one. But artistically, their drawing styles complement each other so well that they can work on the same illustration and it looks like it's done by one person. Peter and Kevin, they've been trying to get illustration work as a team and they call themselves Mirage Studios. Kind of cute, Joe. I like it too, but there's actually a subtle Meaning here it's actually just them in Peter's living room with the brown wallpaper, building their portfolio and making homegrown comics that they hope to sell to a publisher. So it's kind of a mirage.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Now, their first project is called Fugitoid, which is a comic about a scientist whose mind gets transplanted into the body of his robot. But no publisher's bite.

[Nick Martell]

So Kevin and Peter self release Fugitoid. They lump it together with a bunch of their other original drawings and stories in a comic that they call Gobbledygook.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

I like these guys.

[Nick Martell]

I like these guys too, man. So they print out 150 copies at the coffee shop and staple each one of them by hand. And then they sell them for a buck fifty each at a comics convention in Portsmouth, New Hampshire.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Now, Fugitoid does not set the world on fire.

[Nick Martell]

I know. Good point, Jack.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

After two printings, they still have copies of Gobbledygook boxed up around the house.

[Nick Martell]

But honestly, they are not giving up. On this cold night in November, Peter and Kevin are still plugging away in that living room. As the TV blares in the background.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

As the Love Connections credits dissolve into commercials, Kevin starts doodling and starts to smile. Finally, he shoves the paper he's been doodling on towards Peter. He's drawn an oversized turtle standing on two legs like a person.

[Nick Martell]

Now this reptile is wearing a cloth ninja mask and knee pads. Even though he doesn't seem to have knees, he's got nunchucks and he is ready to attack. And at the top of the paper, Kevin wrote two fateful words. Ninja Turtle.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Peter takes one look and immediately starts cracking.

[Nick Martell]

I mean, it's hard not to when you see this thing.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

I mean, a Ninja Turtle makes about as much sense as a ballerina otter or a jujitsu giraffe. But Peter grabs a pen and dashes off his own version. And Kevin sees that Peter's turtle looks way cooler.

[Nick Martell]

This is a good old fashioned cartoon. Off. So Kevin grabs the paper and draws four turtles this time. And he gives them other deadly weapons. One's got a katana, a super sharp sword, and one's got a wooden staff. Each is striking a deadly looking pose. And together they're like an elite fighting squad ready for battle.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

But Kevin's drawing is all in pencil, so Peter snatches it back and inks it. Then he adds something that will change the course of comic book history forever.

[Nick Martell]

Peter adds two more words, Teenage Mutant, in front of the Ninja Turtle name. And together the pair look down at this. They just burst out laughing. They're both thinking the same exact thing as they stare at those four words.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

This is the dumbest thing ever.

[Nick Martell]

This is so dumb.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Yetis.

[Nick Martell]

This is about to be their core operating principle. It's gonna be absurdity.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

The first turtle drawings may have come in a flash of inspiration, but the rest of the idea is more like a slow burn. Yeah.

[Nick Martell]

Peter and Kevin, they don't have a next project lined up, so they start to think, you know what? These turtles made us laugh. Maybe these things have some potential.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

But it's not enough to have four awesome looking turtles. Any published product, from comic books to rom com movies, need a compelling narrative. What made these Turtles mutants? Why teenagers? If they're ninjas, who are they fighting? Relationships, weaknesses, desires. That's what makes a franchise connect and succeed.

[Nick Martell]

They start fleshing out the story here, and they take inspiration from their favorite comic creators, like Jack Kirby, who co created Captain America, or Frank Miller, whose.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Run on the Marvel series Daredevil is considered one of the best.

[Nick Martell]

Peter and Kevin actually decide to make the Ninja Turtles plot kind of a Daredevil parody. In Daredevil, the main character is hit by a rogue canister of radioactive material, and he goes blind, but also gets a bunch of sweet powers.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

So Peter and Kevin think, what if after it hit Daredevil, that radioactive canister also hits someone else? Like an innocent bystander carrying a fishbowl.

[Nick Martell]

Full of his pet baby turtles. And what if the baby turtles and the glowing green ooze drop into an open manhole where they're discovered by a rat previously owned by a ninja master? Yeah, and then the ooze makes the Turtles and the rat intelligent creatures capable of learning the ancient art of ninjutsu. Okay, and maybe. Maybe these turtles seek justice in the human world by fighting crime.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Yeah.

[Nick Martell]

Okay.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

All right. There we go. Daredevil Sensei was named Stick, so they named the Turtles Rat Sensei Splinter. And the evil crime syndicate from Daredevil is the Hand. So in the Turtles universe, the bad guys are called the Foot. Peter and Kevin's story is chock full of Easter eggs and knowing winks, especially for comic nerds.

[Nick Martell]

They also create a whole bunch of original characters, too, like April O'Neil, the turtle's human pal and a proper villain.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

To lead the Foot clan. A fearsome villain named Shredder, whose spiky costume happens to be inspired by a metal cheese grater.

[Nick Martell]

But the most important element of all this world building. It's the four Ninja Turtles themselves.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

At first, Peter And Kevin tried giving the characters Japanese names since Splinter the rat who named the turtles had belonged to a Japanese ninja master.

[Nick Martell]

But none of the names feel absurd enough. So they ask, huh? What if Splinter is a rat who also appreciates the fine arts? Maybe he enjoys painting and frescoes and 16th century European sculpture.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

So they grab an art textbook from Peter's bookshelf and flip backwards through history. And they land on a quartet of Italian Renaissance artists. You know the names already. Leonardo, Michelangelo, Donatello and Raphael.

[Nick Martell]

It's so ridiculous that they just crack themselves up all over again. It's the operating principle. Absolutely absolute absurdity. And these turtles will eventually develop their own unique personalities. But at first, what sets them apart from each other are their weapons. Leonardo has katana blades. Michelangelo's got nunchucks. Donatello's got a long wooden staff called a bow. And Raphael has a pair of sai that's S A I that kind of look like tridents with a long middle point. But Peter and Kevin do something else to separate the characters from the crowd. That's going to be a powerful differentiator. They write them sort of like bratty teenagers. They're not noble like Superman or brooding like Batman. They squabble, they party. And they still have a lot to learn. It's like they're going through puberty. Actually, they are going through puberty.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

They're pretty relatable for mutant reptiles.

[Nick Martell]

Now, once Peter and Kevin get all the lore sorted out and hit those key core universal human traits, they get out their drawing lab boards, they nestle into that living room sofa, and they start sketching.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Time to bring the Ninja Turtles out of the sewers and into the world.

[Nick Martell]

For their first Ninja Turtles issue, Peter and Kevin's workflow is extremely collaborative. Kevin works out the storyline and sketches a draft of the character. Action.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Then Peter dives in to refine the dialogue.

[Nick Martell]

This complimentary combo pulled double duty on penciling and inking the final drafts. Remember, they're working out of Peter's living room so they can literally just trade pages back and forth like a bag of Doritos.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

They keep the illustrations in black and white.

[Nick Martell]

It's cheaper that way, with a cover.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

That incorporates just one additional color. Blood red for the turtles masks.

[Nick Martell]

Now, Peter and Kevin, they keep working into the spring of 1984. That's four months scraping by on just ramen and savings. But finally they are done. And the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles issue number one is born. This 40 page comic, it is full of elaborate illustrations, snappy dialogue, and heart racing action. Jack could you do a little dramatic reading here from page one, issue one.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

My name is Leonardo. We made a wrong turn somewhere. Now we're caught with our backs to the wall in this trash strewn alley. Barring the way out are 15 members of the Purple Dragons, the toughest street gang on the east side. The only way they'll let us out of here is if we're dead. Now that's a lot more goth than the Ninja Turtles. I remember. By the way, sounds like Leonardo is channeling Quentin Tarantino.

[Nick Martell]

Now, the first version is kinda hardcore. The Turtles curse sometimes, and when they street fight, you see some blood splatter across the scene. Honestly, it's a little less PG, a.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Little more R. While Ninja Turtles 1 isn't written with kids in mind, its target is comic fans. The types of fans that go to Comic Con and don't need a parent's permission. They want to see someone lose a limb in these books.

[Nick Martell]

Which brings us to their next big decision as a team. What to do next. Remember, with their first comic, their goal is to sign with a publisher. Publishing houses. They've got distribution relationships, marketing budgets, editors. That is the surest path to really make it in the industry. And distribution is destiny.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

But their last attempt to get published professionally failed miserably.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, it did. So this time, they don't even bother approaching any publishers. Instead, they're gonna get it printed themselves and take it to this year's Portsmouth Minicon. The same convention where they first sold those hand stapled issues of Gobbledygook.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Those last copies didn't sell so well, but Peter and Kevin have reason to think self publishing will go better this time. But they'll need to upgrade their quality. No more printing off copies at Kinko's. They'll need to pay for professional help.

[Nick Martell]

So they get a quote from the print shop in Dover, N.H. 3,200 copies. That's going to cost them two grand.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

For context, two grand is a third of Peter's illustration income for the entire past year.

[Nick Martell]

But these guys get scrappy. And they literally scrape together Kevin's $500 tax refund, a thirteen hundred dollar loan from his uncle, and the last two hundred bucks in Peter's bank account. This added all up is their start of capital. Two grand. Plus 12 to 15 weeks of sweat equity.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

These two unsuccessful illustrators are betting everything they have on four turtles named after dead Italians. Is this actually the dumbest idea ever? So they pull the trigger on the.

[Nick Martell]

Printing, which should be ready right in time for Mini Con.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Hang on a sec. You said 3200 copies. Wasn't the last batch only 150?

[Nick Martell]

Yeah. Here's the problem, Jack. Commercial printers, they don't really do small runs like that. So these guys, they either got to go big or keep themselves warm next winter by burning unsold issues of their comic. So Peter and Kevin, they need some buzz, which hopefully will lead to sales.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

And they get strategic about who they're targeting. First, they buy an ad in an industry magazine called Comics Buyer's Guide.

[Nick Martell]

Picture comic book guy from the Simpsons. Like, he's the one reading this magazine, and it is crucial that they get his buy because he's the guy buying these comics in bulk and stocking the shelves.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Peter and Kevin are hoping the name Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles will pique buyers attention. It's fresh, it's new. It tells you exactly what the comic's about while also provoking a million questions. Because it's such a dumb name.

[Nick Martell]

Now, a grabby name like this, it's actually something we call buzz branding. It's a marketing one shot. The name itself is both the description and the advertisement all in one. It's not easy to pull off, but if you do, it is gold.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

But to generate buzz, Peter and Kevin also use the entrepreneur's greatest natural resource, their local library.

[Nick Martell]

Deep in the stacks, the duo finds a book listing all the major media outlets in the Northeast. That's print, radio, television. And they use it to create a mailing list of 200 different outlets. And then they send each one of those organizations a one page press release with two pages of sample artwork. And then our scrappy duo spend a whole day meticulously stuffing and labeling and stamping 200 envelopes. Then Peter and Kevin cart the press packets off to the mailbox. Now all they can do is wait.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

This is either going to work perfectly or their fireplaces are going to be stocked with comic book kindling come next November.

[Nick Martell]

Yetis this episode is brought to you by our presenting sponsor, Amazon.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

On this show, we glorify risk takers who had an idea and pursued it relentlessly.

[Nick Martell]

They brought their best idea yet into reality, and it wasn't easy to do that.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

To simplify our lives and let us focus on what really matters, we use Amazon. It saves us time and saves brain space, too.

[Nick Martell]

The bane of every high producer's existence is a to do list. Well, one way to eliminate a to do list, you have an Amazon app on your phone.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

When you realize you need something, don't add it to your list, just add it to Your cart. Boom.

[Nick Martell]

You just cleared mental mind space because that thing you need is already in the cart.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Out of detergent. Add it to the cart. Sun's grown out of his shoes. Add a pair of sides 10s to the cart. It's growing fast, man short on TP. Add a 24 pack to the cart before it's too late.

[Nick Martell]

At the end of the week, we push order and it's consolidated into one single delivery.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Our mental mind space is scarce. Put your mind at ease by letting Amazon handle your shopping.

[Nick Martell]

Don't add it to your list, add it to your cart. That way you can come up with your own best idea yet.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

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[Nick Martell]

Jack, you know that feeling when you show up somewhere new for the first time only to realize, these are my people?

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

It's a great feeling.

[Nick Martell]

Well, if you're a comics fan, that's exactly how you feel. Stepping into the Howard Johnson Motor Lodge to the portsmouth minicon on May 5, 1984. Everywhere you look, you see hundreds of other comic book fans lining up around the room to meet their favorite creators. This is a safe space, people. Now, at the back of the room, between the restroom sign and an emergency exit, Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird are sitting. Sitting at a folding table. They do not look like big shots. Kevin, he's actually wearing a Thor T shirt, looking just like any other attendee. But if you step closer, you can see what they've been up to. Tacked up on the wall behind them is a poster that says Mirage Studios. And another that's a beautiful painting of the turtle warriors in action. And on the table, along with the back issues of Gobbledygook, are stacks of their new comic and a sign. Teenage mutant Ninja Turtles, $1.50.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Kevin and Peter do not end up selling all 3200 copies at this convention.

[Nick Martell]

But here, a bet that Peter and Kevin made earlier pays off big time. Remember those 200 press releases they sent out? Well, that actually works. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Radically unusual name and description piques the interest of a journalist from United Press International.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

That's a wire service where one article can go to hundreds of outlets at once.

[Nick Martell]

The writer interviews Peter and Kevin and even sends a photographer to their house. And this leads to mentions in newspapers nationwide. That's a huge break for these two.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

All the comic book store guys see this turtle reference in the press because of this article. That is not only validating, it gets these comic book shop owners to start ordering copies.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, that's huge, Jack. Mirage. They actually sell out their first run in just a matter of weeks, and then a second printing of 6,000 copies that sells out, too. In just two months, these ninja Turtle creators have made enough to repay the loan from Kevin's uncle and split a $200 profit.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

But get this. After the second printing sells out, Kevin goes back to Maine to resume his summer job cooking lobsters. He does not know how to process the success he's just had. So when he gets back in the fall, Peter's like, where you been, man?

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, Peter's like, all summer long, I've been getting requests for Ninja Turtles number two.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

So Kevin basically like, my bad, man. You're right. Let's do this. So they go for it. In October 1984, they publish issue number two. This time, 15,000 copies. And to their surprise, those sell out, too.

[Nick Martell]

They just 5 xed. Peter and Kevin work out their profits and losses, and they realize, holy guacamole, they're about to be 2,000 bucks in the black.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

That's more profit on one project than they've ever made in their entire lives, tips included.

[Nick Martell]

And Jack, they realize, hey, if we start releasing bi monthly issues, then we can make drawing Ninja Turtles a full time job.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

This is a beautiful moment in their startup journey.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, this is wonderful.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

The we can actually live off this moment.

[Nick Martell]

The we don't have to cook lobsters at a restaurant in Maine moment.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Jack, seeing that first revenue come into your bank account, it can be really affirming.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, absolutely. And Peter and Kevin start hiring to keep up with that bi monthly publishing schedule. They bring on a letter, an inker, a pencil, or they even hire a business manager for this little budding company. And by issue number eight, they're selling 135,000 copies. Pretty good for a couple of guys with less than a grand between them to start. But to quote the rapper Biggie Smalls.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Mo money, mo problems.

[Nick Martell]

True in rapping, true in business. Windows are open, letting a light summer breeze drift into the new digs. Drop cloths cover the floors, and Peter and Kevin dip their rollers into aluminum pans of paint. Kevin's sneakers are splattered with a mist of eggshell white.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

It's a Summer Day in 1986, and Mirage Studios has moved into office space in Northampton, Massachusetts.

[Nick Martell]

The buzzer rings. Their midday appointment is here. Peter and Kevin. They walk downstairs, don't change their clothes, and greet their guest with smiles. But the guest is looking a little uncomfortable because he's wearing his one good suit. This is Mark Friedman.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Mark is a licensing agent. He represents Creative properties and finds them partnership opportunities.

[Nick Martell]

Mark actually got his start repping characters like Scooby Doo and the Flintstones. But at the moment, his licensing business is not doing great because right now.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

His actual number of active clients is zero.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, but Mark. Mark's hungry. And he's been scouting license licensing opportunities where the big players are, not like specialty comics and Dungeons and Dragons gaming shops at your local strip mall. He sees upside in the industry's underbelly. He's going where no one else is.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Willing to go, like Northampton, Massachusetts. And the more Mark learns about the Turtles ridiculous lore, the more excited he is. Great characters and story arcs, elaborate names and mutant animals. These are great licensing opportunities.

[Nick Martell]

Now, Mark explains all of this to Peter and Kevin. How they haven't even touched the surface of their creation's commercial potential. How comics can leverage their IP into brand extensions and merchandise. From action figures to TV to movies. That is how you build brand recognition. And that is where the real money is made.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Just ask Disney or ask the kid.

[Nick Martell]

Who'S wearing Paw Patrol band aids.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Now, Peter and Kevin didn't start their comic to get rich. They're just happy to be making a living and laughing while doing it. This was the dream they wanted. Yeah, but they also like this Mark guy. So they all go out for ice cream. And in that ice cream shop, they actually hash out a deal and they sign their first agreement on a paper napkin.

[Nick Martell]

Honestly, one gust of wind and that whole business plan could have been done for.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

So here's the deal. Mark's got 60 days to bring them some merchandising opportunities. So he hits the road. He pitches toy companies like Mattel to talk about Ninja Turtles action figures with their dynamic fighting stances and rad accessories. Seems like a no brainer.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, totally. You get these turtles on a lunchbox. I mean, Jack, that's the threshold of brand obsession. The parents buy it, the kids use it every day. Let's make it happen, Mattel.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

But Mattel is not biting. They say the idea is too niche, too clever, and too underground.

[Nick Martell]

Mattel is thinking about their massive nationwide distribution. If they're going to sell a toy, it's got to be able to sell on the Upper west side of Manhattan and the middle of Idaho.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Mark actually hears this same critique everywhere he tries, so it's looking grim. Until finally he scores a meeting with a family friendly toy company called Playmates Toys.

[Nick Martell]

Playmates is interested, but there is one catch. Most of Playmates toys are actually geared toward little kids. We're talking ages 4 to 8. And the comic book version of the Ninja Turtles are not.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Remember, the Turtles got that gritty vibe when there's street brawling and casual curse words. If a mutant rat gets stabbed in the trachea, eight year old Ethan isn't sleeping through the night anytime soon.

[Nick Martell]

Plus, retail stores like Toys R Us, they're kind of hesitant about selling katanas to six year olds.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

But then the licensing mastermind, Mark Friedman comes up with a way to play out the Turtle's natural humor and play down the violence.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah, it's a simple tweak, but it's a powerful twist week.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

What about this guys? An animated series. They're the world's most fearsome fighting team. It's this animated series that probably introduced you to the Turtles in the first place, right?

[Nick Martell]

Most 8 year olds aren't hanging around comic book shops on the strip malls, but they're definitely watching Saturday morning cartoons, which are really 30 minute toy commercials. If you think about it, these days.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

It'S assumed that the most valuable path for your IP is to go to a TV show or a feature film picture. The Barbie movie. It's a one and a half billion dollar box office success. The toy that becomes the hit movie or TV show, that's the dream, right?

[Nick Martell]

But in the late 1980s, it's actually the other way around. A TV show or a movie existed back then to steer more kids toward the toys. The toys were the real profit puppy.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

So in 1987, Mark Friedman convinces playmates to order five episodes of an animated Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles TV show to test its viability. If kids like it, they'll make more. If not, well, this two dimensional animation is pretty cheap to make. The company won't be out that much money.

[Nick Martell]

Great mini risk to take. Now for Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird, this is kind of an emotional moment. It's more or less the first time that their product is going to be out of their hands. Yeah, they're going to be advising on the project and contributing new character designs. But the main task of adapting their gritty, reptilian comic to a kid's format falls to an animation studio that they can't control.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Earlier we mentioned the joy of the entrepreneurial moment. This is the flip side. The moment you have to give up control of your baby.

[Nick Martell]

But Peter and Kevin, they think back to their days laughing on that couch and they know that they're down for their next big bet. The new team's job, it's to soften the edges of the comic and make it more suitable to kids. Take it from a rated R down to a rated G. You can just.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Hear some VP of marketing going, do they have to fight with nunchucks? Can we keep tracheas intact in this new show?

[Nick Martell]

So, Michelangelo, he does get to keep the Chucks, but. But the studio also comes up with some strategic solutions to make the characters.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

More kid appropriate, like changing the salty language to surfer slay.

[Nick Martell]

And that's how we get Cowabunga. No bleeping necessary when you drop a Cowabunga. But it's not just the lingo. They also give the Turtles a food indulgence that kids can really relate to. They give them pizza.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

So much pizza.

[Nick Martell]

So much pizza.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

And then April O'Neil, the turtle's human friend, goes from a complicated computer programmer in the comics to a Lois Lane type that often needs to be rescued so that her story arc is simpler for kids to comprehend.

[Nick Martell]

Oh, and Shredder's evil foot clan army, they transform from humans in the comics to robots in the animated series, so there are no actual deaths when the Turtles take them down. No blood in those bots.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

But remember, the more characters, the more.

[Nick Martell]

The merch opportunities you got to maximize that IP for profitability, man.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

So Shredder also gets some new sidekicks in this TV show.

[Nick Martell]

He gets Bebop, who's a mutant warthog.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

And he gets Rocksteady.

[Nick Martell]

He's a mutant rhino, and he's dressed like a barista in Bushwick.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

The animated show also needs to make it easier for children to tell all these turtles apart, so they each get their own bandana color.

[Nick Martell]

Leonardo's blue, Michelangelo's orange, Donatello's purple, and Raphael the OG Red.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

And if that's not enough, the show's theme song is there to give you their defining character traits.

[Nick Martell]

As literal as these lyrics are, there's actually a really strategic point to them. Giving each character differentiated traits helps the audience connect with them more deeply.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

The pilot of the newly kid friendly Ninja Turtles airs in December 1987. Crucially, the week right after Christmas, when the kids are home from school and so ready for a new cartoon to watch.

[Nick Martell]

And that timing, it pays off. The show takes off, and reviews start popping up everywhere, including from columnists that have nothing to do with television, like.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

The sports writer Mike Lupica from the New York Daily News.

[Nick Martell]

Jack, he declared, my new favorite show for 1988 is a show I haven't even seen. And it's called Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. And I don't care what it's about. It's My new favorite show. It's all in the name.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

This isn't an unusual reaction either. The title really does hook people's attention, at least enough to get them to check out the show. That is some buzz branding.

[Nick Martell]

Now, there are just two people in America who aren't into all this at the moment, and unfortunately, it's the Turtles original creators, Peter Laird and Kevin Eastman. The Buddies are less than thrilled with the kiddie show version of their comic, especially when it comes to Shredder. For them, even cartoon villains should provoke some sense of danger.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

But the Turtles cartoon is careful not to make any villain too scary. Remember, we want Ethan sleeping through the night.

[Nick Martell]

You may be wondering at this point, isn't it still their ip? Why don't they push back on these changes that they don't like?

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Well, in later interviews, Peter says he wishes that they had. But there are reasons for just going with the flop. First, vetoing the changes would probably kill the toy deal, and that's a lot of money to say no to. Also, they're young guys and this is their first big licensing deal. It can be hard in these situations to stand up for yourself, even if on paper you're legally the one in charge.

[Nick Martell]

Absolutely, Jack. And can I add one more reason I think they don't push back on these changes. Kids frickin love the show. The Turtles, the pizza, the Bebop, the Rocksteady. So the toy company Playmates orders a bunch more episodes for the 1988 season. And suddenly kids everywhere are playing Ninja Turtles. Assigning Turtle name to each other pre recess.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Easiest group Halloween costume ever.

[Nick Martell]

Forget the Zodiac. 1988, the year of Jackson my birth. It becomes the year of the Turtle. That holiday shopping season. The general public is in the throes. At Turtle Mania.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

That's actually what people call the backpack.

[Nick Martell]

True story. We're talking T shirts, underwear, bed sheets, lunchboxes, beach towels, even birthday party supplies. Oh, and then, Jack, there are the action figures. Oh, the action figures.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Playmates makes 400 unique designs for action figures between 1988 and 1992. The Turtles franchise earns a billion dollars in toy sales alone, making the Turtles the third biggest selling action figure of all time. Right behind GI Joe and Star Wars.

[Nick Martell]

Not too shabby. In fact, in 1991, Kevin Eastman estimates he personally grosses $50 million dollars on the Turtlemania.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Oh, and this kind of payout takes the sting out of any creative differences Peter and Kevin might have with the show.

[Nick Martell]

Especially since the deal doesn't prevent Kevin and Peter from continuing the original comics exactly the way they want. Blood, guts, severed tracheas and all.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

But hang on to your shelves, because we haven't even gotten to the craziest part of this story. Coming up, we'll hear how the most creative D dude of the 20th century got a case of Turtlemania, too.

[C]

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[D]

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[C]

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[Nick Martell]

Jack and I have studied major media brands for years. In fact, there is a whole Walt Disney playbook to scaling intellectual property. Once you have a hit TV show, the next obvious step is a major motion picture. And in March 1990, Teenage Mutant Ninja, the feature film, debuts with one big surprise. Live action.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

We don't mean that fake CGI live action they used in the recent Lion King remake.

[Nick Martell]

No, no, good point, Jack. We're talking real puppetry here. Turtle suits, animatronic heads, the whole shebang. And those suits are created by a visual effects lab called the Creature Shop, founded by certified genius and best idea yet alum Jim Henson, the man behind.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

The Muppets and Sesame Street.

[Nick Martell]

And this live action film sprinkles back on some of the grittiness that Peter and Kevin felt were missing from the animated kids show. And the fans like it, too. Basically, the Turtles are graduating from G rated to at least pg. And the financial results, Jack?

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

The only word that describes them is cowabunga. The first Turtles film grosses over $200 million worldwide on a budget of less than $14 million.

[Nick Martell]

That is a 13x return.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

And that's not even counting a massive endorsement deal with Pizza Hut. Because Pizza. But man, that movie was one of the greatest ROIs in Hollywood history.

[Nick Martell]

Now, the success of the film, it also reveals something bigger about the Turtles franchise. It shows that the Ninja Turtles aren't just one thing.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

There can be multiple versions across different media, each reaching a different audience. And that widens the appeal overall. And it widens the revenue opportunities.

[Nick Martell]

Now, fans of the OG comic already knew that, of course, but for most of the viewing public that only knows the kitty cartoon. This is a revelation. The grittier 1990 film opens up all sorts of growth opportunities.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Its sequel comes one year later, the Secret of the Ooze. And it swings way back to silly and absurd.

[Nick Martell]

It's not every Turtles movie that's going to feature a cameo from Vanilla Ice.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

But it has adapted with the times with each new iteration. So far, there have been seven Ninja Turtles feature films and counting, plus five TV adaptations and video games from arcade to Xbox.

[Nick Martell]

And that includes the 2023 animated film co written by Seth Rogen, with a cast targeting gen Z, including Iowa debris, post Malone and Mr. Beast. And that one gross 200 million bucks, too.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles franchise is like a kaleidoscope, changing colors and shapes every time you turn it, but each time staying so absurd that it works. What had started in the den of two broke artists trying to outdumb each other in New Hampshire is now a franchise worth billions.

[Nick Martell]

Eventually, the weight of managing the Turtle licensing empire takes a tol on the founder's friendship. Kevin moves to California. Peter stays in New England, and then they stop working together at all. Heavy is the bandana, as they say.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

In the year 2000, Kevin sells his shares of the Ninja Turtles back to Peter. And in 2009, Peter sells the franchise rights to Viacom for $60 million. But Peter and Kevin can't ever really turn their backs on their signature creation.

[Nick Martell]

Today, you can find recent pictures of the two of them together showing up for events like Comic Con.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

In these pictures, Peter is still dressed a bit like a retired professor, and Kevin is still wearing a Thor T shirt. But the best part of all, these two are together, smiling.

[Nick Martell]

And it makes sense, Jack, because they really did fulfill their dream.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

They've made their living from an idea born out of pure fun. An idea lovingly calls the dumbest idea yet.

[Nick Martell]

So, Jack, now that we've heard the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle story, what's your takeaway?

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Here it is. Building a company or starting a business is like doing improv.

[Nick Martell]

Yeah.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

You have to say yes. And the Turtles got their start because Peter and Kevin essentially had an improv session with sketchbooks in their living room that day. One said yes and to the other's idea, and they kept building and building without stopping to say, hey, what if this is stupid? Or getting bogged down in a cycle of doubt. They didn't let their inner critic get in the way of their inner child.

[Nick Martell]

Now, there is definitely a critique phase of every product or creative work. But in the beginning, to give yourself joy and momentum, you have to say yes.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

And what about you, Nick? What's your takeaway on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?

[Nick Martell]

Mine is about what we call the real remix effect. When you go full DJ on an idea to make it a viral product. You know how most social media platforms give users a way to sample, quote, tweet, add to, and otherwise remix another user's content? It works for building other products as well.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Great point. And this isn't new. Shakespeare was one of the OG Content remixers. He would take classical myths, folk tales, and actual history and remix them into a new form of masterpiece.

[Nick Martell]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles began as a remix. They remixed Daredevil, another comic. They remixed Jack Kirby's Captain America, Japanese martial arts traditions. They remixed all of it to make their own thing. And then other people came along and remixed Ninja Turtles into whole different types of media.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

The remix effect is a great way for your product to have a long, healthy life. Life in the marketplace. Before we go, it's time for our favorite part of the show. The best facts yet.

[Nick Martell]

The hero stats, Facts and surprises we discovered in our research, but just couldn't fit into the story. Jack, hit me. What do we got, man?

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

New Yorkers. Did you know that Ninja Turtles were actually tourism ambassadors for the city back in 2016?

[Nick Martell]

Very official position, Jack. Very impressive.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Leonardo, Donatello, Michelangelo, and Raphael starred in a citywide marketing campaign encouraging visiting families to get the most out of their New York City experience.

[Nick Martell]

And being the biggest pizza head of the bunch, Michelangelo's recommendations were actually usually restaurants. Oh, but Jack, I got another one for you. The first Cowabunga was actually used in the 1950s kids show howdy Doody before it was adopted by surfers in California.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Cowabunga. So that word wasn't even Peter and Kevin's idea.

[Nick Martell]

No, it wasn't. In fact, they ended up getting sued by the Howdy Doody people and had to settle for 50,000 bucks over the term Cowabunga.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

I'm glad they didn't put Michelangelo up at the stand. And finally, if you're loving this 1990s nostalgia, try this one on the voice of Shredder. In the original animated TV show, it was an actor named James Avery and Jack Warehouse.

[Nick Martell]

We heard James Avery's voice before Uncle.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Phil in the Fresh Prince of Bel Air. He died in 2013, but his iconic voice will live on forever. No. It can't be.

[Nick Martell]

They've escaped.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

And that, my friends, is why Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is the best idea yet. Coming up on the next episode of the Best Idea yet. Whip out your Starbucks app. Select your syrups and number of pumps because we're talking about the Frappuccino.

[Nick Martell]

And hey, if you have a product you're obsessed with but you wish you knew the backstory, drop us a comment. We'll look into it for you. Oh, and don't forget to rate and review the podcast.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Follow the Best Idea yet on the Wondery App, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcast. You can listen to every episode of the Best Idea yet early and ad free right now by joining Wonder plus in the Wondery App or on Apple Podcasts.

[Nick Martell]

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey the best idea yet is a production of Wondery hosted by me, Nick Martel.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

And me Jack Crevici Kramer. Our senior producers are Matt Beagle and Chris Gautier.

[Nick Martell]

Peter Arcuni is our additional Senior producer.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Our senior Managing Producer is Nick Ryan and Taylor Sniffin is our Managing producer.

[Nick Martell]

Our Associate producer and researcher is H. Conley.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

This episode was written and produced by Katie Clark Gray. We use many sources in our research, including Teenage Mutant Ninja the Ultimate Visual History by Andrew Faraga, the Complete History of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles by Rob Lambley for Mental Floss and the Absolutely Unhinged Turtlepedia Wiki on Fandom. Sound design and mixing by C.J.

[Nick Martell]

Drummeler, fact checking by Brian Punyon, music.

[Jack Trivici Kramer]

Supervision by Scott Velazquez and Jolina Garcia for Freeson Sync.

[Nick Martell]

Our theme song is Got that Feeling Again by Blackilac. Executive producers for Nick and Jack Studios are me, Nick Martell and me, Jack Revici Kramer. Executive producers for Wondery are Dave Easton, Jenny lauer, Beckman, Aaron O'Flaherty and Marshall Louie.

[D]

You know those creepy stories that give you goosebumps? The ones that make you really question what's real? Well, what if I told you that some of the strange, darkest and most mysterious stories are not found in haunted houses or abandoned forests, but instead in hospital rooms and doctor's offices? Hi, I'm Mr. Ballin, the host of Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries, and each week on my podcast you can expect to hear stories about bizarre illnesses no one can explain, miraculous recoveries that shouldn't have happened, and cases so baffling they stumped even the best doctors. So if you crave totally true and thoroughly twisted horror stories and mysteries, Mr. Bolland's medical mysteries should be your new Go to weekly show. Listen to Mr. Bolland's Medical Mysteries on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondery app or on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.