Best of “How To”: Make Small Talk

Summary

Summary of Podcast Episode: Best of “How To”: Make Small Talk

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Best of "How To"
• Host/Author: The Atlantic
• Episode: Best of “How To”: Make Small Talk
• Release Date: December 30, 2024
• Description: This six-episode collection draws from the past six seasons of the "How To" series, focusing on slowing down, making space, and finding meaning within our jam-packed lives. The highlighted episode explores the art of small talk, delving into its challenges and strategies to navigate social interactions effectively.

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Introduction

In the episode titled “Make Small Talk,” hosted by The Atlantic, Julie Beck and producer Rebecca Rashid revisit discussions from season four of the “How To” series. Co-host Megan Garber joins the conversation to explore the intricacies of small talk, social anxiety, and the strategies individuals employ to foster meaningful interactions. The episode aims to provide listeners with actionable insights to overcome the barriers that prevent them from engaging comfortably in casual conversations.

The Challenge of Small Talk

The episode opens with Julie Beck expressing her anxiety over maintaining a conversation:

• Julie Beck (04:05): “If I'm in a five-minute conversation, I am like, what am I gonna say next? What's the next thing that I should.”

Rebecca Rashid echoes similar sentiments, highlighting the fear of running out of topics:

• Rebecca Rashid (04:17): “I feel like I can chat with anybody for like five minutes. Right. And then if I run out of things to say in the middle, that's my fear.”

These initial exchanges set the stage for a deeper exploration into why small talk is a common hurdle for many, especially those who identify as socially anxious or introverted.

Insights from Experts and Personal Experiences

Rebecca Rashid introduces the central theme of the episode by underscoring how small talk serves as a foundational step in building relationships:

• Rebecca Rashid (03:32): “I think a lot about relationships and community. And I do see often that people struggle to form the close relationships that they really want. And I think one of the barriers to that is the dreaded small talk.”

The conversation shifts to the dynamics of small talk within the context of a hair salon, a setting where both hosts regularly engage in casual conversations with clients. Megan Garber shares her perspective as a hairdresser:

• Megan Garber (05:30): “Most hairdressers are very much prepared to talk all day, I think.”

Julie Beck, however, contrasts this by expressing her comfort with silence and the challenge of maintaining conversational flow:

• Julie Beck (05:07): “I don't know. I feel like if you want to talk, that's amazing. It is really entertaining and fun to have conversation... But if you don't want to talk, don't try to talk.”

Defining and Navigating Small Talk

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around defining what constitutes small talk and why it can be perceived negatively. Megan Garber provides her definition:

• Megan Garber (09:02): “For me, small talk is like, oh, it's cold out. Yeah, it's cold out. Oh, do you like cold?”

Rebecca Rashid challenges Megan to delve deeper, leading to a conversation about the meaningfulness and potential dead-ends of typical small talk questions like “How was your weekend?”

Julie Beck offers a nuanced view, explaining how conversations can organically evolve from superficial topics to more personal ones:

• Julie Beck (09:53): “I don't come in. Hey, how's your hair? Do you believe in God? It's more like... you know, you'll be talking about their family or, like, their parents or whatever.”

Strategies to Overcome Awkwardness

The hosts discuss strategies to make small talk less daunting. Nadia Yada shares her personal experiences and coping mechanisms:

• Nadia Yada (18:08): “I just try to be honest, actually. And so I would approach people. If you have the uncomfortable situation where you've talked to somebody and they've moved on to something else and you're standing there by yourself, you know, I'll just approach a group and I'll say, hey, I'm Ty, I'm new here. Do you mind if I join you?”

This honesty and directness are presented as effective ways to diffuse awkwardness and build trust quickly.

Impact of Modern Technology on Social Interactions

Nadia Yada further elaborates on how modern conveniences like social media and texting have affected face-to-face interactions:

• Nadia Yada (30:33): “We don't have to interact with people as much as we used to. We can do it through our social media or we can get absorbed in our phones or stay in the comfort of our home and stream some show.”

She argues that while these alternatives offer comfort, they can also hinder the development of deeper, more meaningful relationships that arise from direct interactions.

Tai Tashiro’s Contributions on Awkwardness

Though not deeply explored in the transcript, references to social scientist Tai Tashiro suggest that his insights on awkwardness and social behavior inform much of the discussion:

• Becca Rashid (13:57): “Tai Tashiro is a social scientist who writes about awkwardness, and his book called the Science of why We're Socially Awkward and why that's awesome...”

His work emphasizes the importance of embracing awkward moments as part of authentic social interactions rather than fearing them.

Conclusion: Embracing Authentic Conversations

The episode concludes with a consensus on the importance of stepping out of one’s comfort zone to engage in small talk, recognizing that awkwardness is a natural part of human interaction:

• Rebecca Rashid (35:29): “But I think we have to bear in mind what we miss out on if we do that all the time.”

Julie Beck summarizes the episode’s essence by reflecting on the value of meaningful conversations over superficial interactions:

• Julie Beck (36:10): “It's personal, but it's casual and there's...”

The final takeaway encourages listeners to approach small talk with authenticity and openness, understanding that these interactions can lead to valuable connections and personal growth.

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Notable Quotes:

• Julie Beck (04:05): “If I'm in a five-minute conversation, I am like, what am I gonna say next? What's the next thing that I should.”
• Megan Garber (09:02): “For me, small talk is like, oh, it's cold out. Yeah, it's cold out. Oh, do you like cold?”
• Nadia Yada (18:08): “I'll just approach a group and I'll say, hey, I'm Ty, I'm new here. Do you mind if I join you?”
• Nadia Yada (30:33): “We don't have to interact with people as much as we used to. We can do it through our social media or we can get absorbed in our phones or stay in the comfort of our home and stream some show.”

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Key Takeaways:

1. Understanding Small Talk: Recognizing that small talk serves as a foundational step in building deeper relationships, despite often being perceived as trivial or awkward.
2. Personal Strategies: Employing honesty and directness in conversations can alleviate the pressure of maintaining small talk and foster genuine connections.
3. Impact of Technology: Acknowledging that while technology provides convenient alternatives to face-to-face interactions, it may inadvertently contribute to social distancing and superficial relationships.
4. Embracing Awkwardness: Viewing awkward moments as natural and recoverable elements of social interactions can reduce anxiety and enhance interpersonal skills.
5. Cultivating Empathy: Developing empathy towards those who find social interactions challenging can create more supportive and understanding communities.

This episode serves as a comprehensive guide for individuals seeking to improve their small talk skills, offering both theoretical insights and practical strategies to navigate the complexities of social interactions.

Transcript

[Nadia Yada]

Welcome to Nadia Yada island, next on Metro's Nadia Yada island podcast.

[Megan Garber]

I almost fainted when the four new bombshells arrived. Four free Samsung Galaxy A16. 5G phones at Metro. No way. And finding out the fourth line is free. Things got heated.

[Julie Beck]

That's wild.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Join Metro and get four free Samsung 5G phones only at Metro plus tax. Bring four numbers and an ID and sign up for any Metro Flex plan not available currently at T Mobile or been with Metro in the past 180 days.

[Ty Tashiro]

Hey, it's Megan Garber, one of the co hosts of how to Know what's Real. We're excited to share with you a special series drawn from past seasons of the how to series. For the last six weeks, we've been revisiting episodes around the theme of winding down. This episode is our last in this series and one of my personal favorites. It's from season four, how to Talk to People. And it's called how to Make Small Talk. Take a listen as former host Julie Beck and producer Becca Rashid talk with experts from hairstylists to self described socially anxious people about how they work on letting go of social anxiety.

[Megan Garber]

Okay, so we'll sit here. Okay, we'll sit here. We'll start like usual and talk about what you want to do with your hair, right?

[Rebecca Rashid]

Yeah, like, I do need to.

[Megan Garber]

Chrissy, you need a haircut.

[Ty Tashiro]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Does this moment feel awkward to you?

[Nadia Yada]

It doesn't, so I don't know if it should. Great news.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Great news.

[Julie Beck]

If I'm in a five minute conversation, I am like, what am I gonna say next? What's the next thing that I should. Did I already talk about the weather? Did I already. And then I get real panicked.

[Rebecca Rashid]

No. I feel like I can chat with anybody for like five minutes. Right. And then if I run out of things to say in the middle, that's my fear. Cause we are trapped here for the duration of this haircut. I can't just do it like, well, it was so great to see you. Gotta run while you're holding my ha.

[Megan Garber]

Yeah, we could stop talking. And I will try to put out, like a comfortable, chill vibe.

[Nadia Yada]

It's, you know, pretty common. Someone might say something like, oh, there's a really good vibe here. And to me, that is totally bewildering how they discern that vibe within a few seconds.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Hi, I'm Julie Beck, a senior editor at the Atlantic.

[Becca Rashid]

And I'm Rebecca Rashid, producer of the how to series.

[Rebecca Rashid]

This is how to Talk to People here at the Atlantic. I oversee the family section And I've also been reporting on friendship for many years now. So I think a lot about relationships and community. And I do see often that people struggle to form the close relationships that they really want. And I think one of the barriers to that is the dreaded small talk.

[Becca Rashid]

So I think in this first episode, we have to figure out, how does one even make small talk?

[Rebecca Rashid]

How indeed?

[Becca Rashid]

And what holds us back from the chit chat, from the conversations that help us build relationships? And what explains that tendency so many of us have to look down at our phones and avoid conversation or hide in the corner at a party and only talk to the people we know. So where better to do some research on this than to talk to the ultimate small talk experts at the hair salon?

[Rebecca Rashid]

Hello.

[Julie Beck]

Come on in. How are you guys?

[Rebecca Rashid]

Good. Hi.

[Nadia Yada]

Hi.

[Julie Beck]

Hi. Hi. Good to see you.

[Rebecca Rashid]

I feel like. Okay. The main thing that I need to ask you.

[Megan Garber]

Okay.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Is when I'm sitting in this chair. Okay. Do you even want to talk to me?

[Megan Garber]

Oh, yeah.

[Rebecca Rashid]

I. You can be honest. It wouldn't hurt my.

[Megan Garber]

I want to talk to. I have to be here all day.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Right.

[Megan Garber]

So I do need some entertainment.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Okay.

[Megan Garber]

I can't, like, I. So I like talking to people. I like getting the hot goss.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Okay.

[Megan Garber]

Yeah. Classic hairdresser situation.

[Rebecca Rashid]

I mean, it feels rude, but in my mind, I've also wondered, like, would you actually be relieved if I was just on my phone the whole time and then you could have a break from, like, being on all the time?

[Megan Garber]

You know, that is totally fine with me. Like, if you want to be on your phone. I do think of it that way. Okay, great. I'll have a break. I'll just, like, think about my own things that are going on, organize my brain. I'm just glad that you're here. Most hairdressers are very much prepared to talk all day, I think.

[Julie Beck]

I don't know.

[Megan Garber]

No.

[Becca Rashid]

Julie. I can't stop thinking about how much fun we had with Erin DeRosa and Mimi Craft at Sen's Salon in Washington, D.C. yeah.

[Rebecca Rashid]

I mean, they are the women who actually do my hair. And it was very fun to get, like, a peek behind the scenes of what they're thinking the whole time.

[Julie Beck]

I feel like if you want to talk, that's amazing. It is really entertaining and fun to have conversation and to have, like, good conversation. But if you don't want to talk, don't try to talk, because then it's, like, really hard to have a conversation. And then it's even more work to, like, keep it Going and try to like fill the silence or whatever. And I'm very comfortable with silence and very comfortable just like doing my thing and, you know, someone else doing their thing. But if you do want to have a conversation, that's also always welcome.

[Becca Rashid]

I'm curious, what is it about small talk that makes you so nervous?

[Rebecca Rashid]

I don't. Okay, to clarify, I don't know that it makes me nervous all the time. I think what's interesting about it is it's like you can't really get around it. Any relationship that you're going to have, like, has to start with a conversation. And you usually start with like the safe topics, the small talk, the this, the that. So it's more a situation where I am trapped on the train with an acquaintance I don't know that well. And we have 20 minutes to fill and I got five minutes of material if I'm getting my hair cut or anywhere where you're just trapped with either an acquaintance or a stranger for a long time.

[Megan Garber]

Pulling the shape up a little bit. Yeah, you like the layers longer, longish, but you still like to have enough.

[Rebecca Rashid]

And you have to kind of navigate. Like, how much are we going to talk to each other? What are we going to talk about? Would they rather I just left them alone? But we're both too polite to say so. I do get in my head a lot about that and I find it very hard to relax sometimes if I am receiving a service and like, probably if I was just normal and like relaxed and enjoyed the situation, it would make them more comfortable. Like I'm probably putting off a vibe.

[Becca Rashid]

It can be extra challenging when the terms of that relationship are not really established in any way. Like just having a conversation with that person doesn't necessarily mean you're moving towards friendship.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Yeah, you're right. Like the kind of people that are in your life. But that relationship is not necessarily going to grow from what it already is. But you still need to interact with them and perhaps semi regularly. And just like, how do you approach that? Like the barista you see every day and you know that she knows that you always get the iced vanilla latte and she knows that you know that she knows. But you still just like order it freshly every time? Yes. Yes. And you don't ever acknowledge anything. Do you both consider yourself extroverts?

[Julie Beck]

No.

[Megan Garber]

Oh, no.

[Julie Beck]

No. Hard? No. Extreme? No.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Well, then how do you sit here and make small talk all day, every day? Does it exhaust you?

[Megan Garber]

I once heard that introverts like to have like one on one Deeper conversations. Whereas extroverts are more comfortable with, like, typical small talk. I am not interested in small talk. I want to get right into the real talk immediately. And I definitely don't want to go to, like, a party, honestly, basically, ever, or be in a crowd where I have to, like, make small talk with a lot of people, because that is exhausting to me. But having, like, deep connections and one on one, like, deeper conversations with people is. I like that. And I'm good at it.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Well, how do you define small talk then?

[Megan Garber]

For me, small talk is like, oh, it's cold out. Yeah, it's cold out. Oh, do you like cold?

[Becca Rashid]

No.

[Megan Garber]

Oh, yeah, me too. And that's, like, really boring. Oh, are you. How was your weekend?

[Rebecca Rashid]

Good.

[Megan Garber]

Oh, cool. I want to know what happened.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Well, are you coming in hot with your clients? Like, do you believe in God? You know what I mean? Like, it is, like, lighter.

[Megan Garber]

Yeah. I mean, sometimes I'm coming in hot. Sometimes, like, if I'm like, oh, how was your weekend? Great. I will be like, did you. Did what happened? Did anything. I will usually say, like, did anything crazy happen? Did anything crazy happen? Did anybody go to the hospital? Like, I want to get, like, straight into it. If somebody was, like, at a party. You can tell when somebody comes in on a Saturday morning and they were at a party, you know, the night before, and you really are like, what happened last night? What went down? I do, like, getting straight into the details.

[Julie Beck]

I guess I'll also say, like, I don't come in. Hey, how's your hair? Do you believe in God? It's more like. It's more like somehow it'll come up somewhere in the conversation and, you know, you'll be talking about their family or, like, their parents or whatever. And then it's like, oh, how were you raised? Were you raised religiously? It sort of evolves. And then I will say, well, do you believe in God?

[Rebecca Rashid]

So that's a real example that has happened.

[Julie Beck]

Oh, yeah, for sure. For sure. But I like to have conversation like that with people. And that's like, one of my favorite things about this job is having real conversations like that.

[Megan Garber]

She gets the very most dirt out.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Of people because love a good story.

[Megan Garber]

She is so genuinely curious that even if somebody maybe was not going into a conversation thinking they were going to reveal a detail, she will get it out of them.

[Julie Beck]

I will.

[Megan Garber]

Because of her genuine curiosity.

[Julie Beck]

I will.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Yeah.

[Julie Beck]

That is like, a lot of people are sort of in denial about what is happening in their situation. And because we've heard so many stories that are similar. And we are like, no. Like, this is what's really happening.

[Megan Garber]

And we're like, girl, no, this is what's happening.

[Julie Beck]

This is what's happening.

[Megan Garber]

And then, like, come to find out, like, maybe their next visit or their visit after that, they're like, that is what's happening. Cause we. That is. The value in good small talk and conversation is that you learn from other people's experiences. And so then those things, everything repeats itself. Like, nothing's really a new thing. So somebody comes in and you're like, I know what's happening there.

[Rebecca Rashid]

I think small talk gets a lot of hate, but even if it's a little boring, it serves a purpose. So those, like, basic neutral topics that people love to hate on, like, how's the weather? Like, sure is a hot one out there. Like, those serve a purpose of being something neutral that can smooth the path of our interactions.

[Becca Rashid]

But I think sometimes my producer brain that wants to cut to the story, and I'm not always as delicate in the way I phrase my questions, and my intent is not to be offensive, but maybe just to connect with the person in the way I know best or maybe be respectfully personal and try to bridge that gap.

[Rebecca Rashid]

So you. Your approach to small talk, then, is to, like, try to get personal as quickly as possible.

[Becca Rashid]

Not uncomfortably so. But I do struggle with the repeated how's the weather? With someone I see every day? It's like, let's. Let's move this conversation along. We've seen each other. We have some basic context of who each other is.

[Rebecca Rashid]

I feel like I thrive on that surface level. Just the sort of Seinfeldian, like, observational comedy of, like, these are things that are happening around us that, like, I can remark and do a little bit with you and then, like, tip my hat and walk away. Once we transition to something that is a little more personal, that is where I feel, like, a little bumpy. In our conversation with Aaron and Mimi, it really wasn't that awkward surface level kind of small talk that I think people fear. Right.

[Becca Rashid]

And it seems like they were really naturally cognizant of people's different comfort levels and what would be an appropriate story to share. And they were sort of able to read the room and read the space of the conversation. And, you know, they're experts at this. They do this every day.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Yeah, reading the room is a skill for sure. And I think for those of us who aren't quite so practiced as they are, I wanted to understand more so what can cause a seemingly innocuous conversation to take a turn for the awkward and how we navigate it when that happens and what just the barriers are to getting out of our own heads and just chatting.

[Becca Rashid]

Tai Tashiro is a social scientist who writes about awkwardness, and his book called the Science of why We're Socially Awkward and why that's awesome explores a lot of these social and behavioral trends specific to adults in the United States. And he helps people think through how to be in social spaces and feel just a bit more confident. He could also probably help me share this intro in a slightly less awkward way.

[Nadia Yada]

One of the great things about studying awkwardness is that everybody has had an awkward moment. Let's say, for example, you're giving a presentation and you have an undone zipper. That's super awkward, super embarrassing, but it's actually not that big of a deal. It's just an uncomfortable deviation from actually a small social expectation. If you had spinach in your teeth during a first date, same thing. It's actually a really small kind of social expectation, but we have this really powerful emotional reaction to it. Some of my close friends had moved to new cities, and I would go visit them and we'd go out to parties or might go to a bar or something. And some of these friends were awkward. And, you know, I'd watch them in these social interactions, meeting new people, and it was just heartbreaking because they would be their regular awkward self, and you could see the other folks losing interest and saying, I gotta go get another drink or something. And, yeah, just that sad sort of excusing themselves for no good reason. And I thought to myself, like, well, this is heartbreaking for my friend who's trying to make new acquaintances or new friends in the city. But I thought it's also too bad for the other person because here's this awkward person who has tremendous moral character, who's super interesting, who's been an amazing friend to me. But they ruled out any chance of future social interaction based on, you know, three or four minutes of kind of chit chat. And so I had this thought, like, if the awkward person could skip the first five minutes of a social interaction, I actually think they'd be all right.

[Rebecca Rashid]

What exactly was it that your friend was doing that made people want to leave and go get another drink? What was so awkward about it?

[Nadia Yada]

This friend was. Is still a space invader. So in the US the typical amount of space you give someone is about 18 inches.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Oh, I thought you meant like the video game. Okay.

[Nadia Yada]

Oh, no, not that Old school. But he's a space invader, so he's probably about 10 inches, which is way too close, and that makes people feel uncomfortable. He also has trouble with voice modulation, which can certainly happen with awkward people. Speaks a little bit too loud, probably for other people's comfort. But, you know, I guess when you take a step back from it, my thought is, you know, who cares? Like, if you can get past those little clumsy moments at the start, you find this, you know, really wonderful person. So, you know, I just wanted to see, like, are there ways that the awkward person can navigate those awkward moments a little bit more smoothly? But on the other hand, for people who aren't awkward, can they have a little more empathy for the awkward person's situation?

[Rebecca Rashid]

So in your book, you write that some people are more prone to awkwardness than others. Where do you think you fall?

[Nadia Yada]

Oh, boy, I'm pretty awkward. So when I was a kid, I was very awkward. And I think in adulthood I can pass for socially fluent in most situations, but I certainly still have my moments.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Yeah, you're doing great. You're doing great. So with that in mind, I'm curious, can you just walk me through what goes through your mind when you say, enter a party where you only know one or two people? Like, what is the strategy that runs through your mind at that time so.

[Nadia Yada]

You know, before the social event occurs? I do get some social anxiety. I think maybe the difference for someone who's awkward is these feelings of anxiety aren't irrational. So I'll give more thought to small details like what am I going to wear? What would be an appropriate thing to bring? What time am I going to get there? So I just have a little self talk before I go into these situations. I call it my mental preparation. And I'll just say, hey, you don't know anybody. You're nervous about that, and that's okay. You've been in these situations before and you can do it. But I need to have a more assertive attitude than would be natural for me. When I get there, there's kind of this funny thing that happens. So let's say I go with a friend and we walk into the party and it's in full swing. It's, you know, pretty common. Someone might say something like, oh, there's a really good vibe here.

[Becca Rashid]

There's a really good vibe in here.

[Nadia Yada]

And to me, that is totally bewildering how they discern that vibe within a few seconds. So awkward people, when they enter a social situation, they're not all at Once kind of evaluating what's going on. Instead, what they're doing is, is they're looking at individual pieces of information and then kind of putting it together, almost like a puzzle to figure out what the situation is like and how they should behave. So it takes longer for me to read the room, I guess, and then feel comfortable enough to get in there and interact smoothly with other people. And then when I get into it, I just try to be honest, actually. And so I would approach people. If you have the uncomfortable situation where you've talked to somebody and they've moved on to something else and you're standing there by yourself, you know, I'll just approach a group and I'll say, hey, I'm Ty, I'm new here. Do you mind if I join you? And that might sound a little daunting to some folks, but I always find that people are really receptive to that. It took a little bit of boldness maybe to say something like that. And I think people appreciate that.

[Rebecca Rashid]

So why do people feel awkward in that awkward moment where they've broken one minor expectation? Is it the same thing as social anxiety or is it a unique feeling?

[Nadia Yada]

Yeah. So social anxiety is more of a forward looking kind of emotion. So when we feel social anxiety, the core of that is we have some irrational fear that we're going to mess up or we're going to make a fool of ourselves. In a social situation with awkwardness, it's more of this just in the moment, very present kind of feeling. And it even comes along with things like a racing heart or your muscles might tense. Of course, one of the hallmarks is that you might blush. Right. And people usually feel horrible about that. They think I've just made this awkward moment worse by blushing. So blushing actually sends a signal. Hey, I just did something awkward. I feel bad about that and I'm blushing. I'm sending you this social signal. And people actually really appreciate that. So awkward moments aren't the worst thing in the world, but you know, they can be recovered from almost all the time. And actually just being honest about the awkward moment that just took place can actually be beneficial for building some trust with another person.

[Rebecca Rashid]

So do you think that you've gotten more comfortable with socializing over time or do you just feel like you've learned strategies?

[Nadia Yada]

I think it's that I've learned strategies first and then the social comfort came after that. So let me give you a quick example, maybe from childhood about some of these strategies I had to learn.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Sure.

[Nadia Yada]

So when we would go To Wendy's to get a hamburger. My parents would park the car and they would turn around and they say, ty, it's time to mentally prepare. And I would shake my head yes, because I knew exactly what this meant. And what it was was this kind of Socratic dialogue where they would ask me a series of questions and it would help me prepare for what the expectations would be in the social situation and also help me think about what I need to do with my social behaviors to handle it well and appropriately. So they'd say things like, well, where are we? I say, well, we're at Wendy's. And it's almost like a surprise. Like, oh yeah, here we are, we're at Wendy's. What's the first thing you need to look for when you step inside the door? And I would say, well, I need to look and see if there's a line. And that's because sometimes I would go in and just shoot straight to the front. And not because I was trying to cut or cheat and this is hard for some non awkward people to believe, but because I didn't see the line or didn't register with me. I was so narrowly focused on the hamburger and the fries that I would just not see all of the social information off to the side. So once I was in line, you know, I need to figure out what to order. I need to look the cashier in the I say, please say thank you, not whip around with my tray and spill my drink all over the people behind me like I had done a couple times previously. So this would happen not just once, this happened dozens of times for various kinds of social situations. And my folks would need me to get into the habit of thinking about, hey, what's the goal in this situation? What are the small expectations you're going to encounter? And then what are the behaviors that you need to execute to be socially fluent in the situation. So I think with most kids you could say, hey, make sure you're polite when you're ordering, or something like that. And they would think of all the little behaviors that go into that. But for the awkward kid, that's not intuitive. And so you just need to break it down into the component parts. And once you do that, I was pretty good. I mean, if you walked with me into a Wendy's, now I'm pretty smooth.

[Megan Garber]

Connections and one on one, like deeper conversations with people. Like I didn't always know how to get into a conversation and connect with somebody. I just learned it when I started doing hair. And for people who don't really know how to do it. I kind of was thinking is they're like a go to question or something, but it really depends on the setting.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Yeah. So do you actually want to. Or feel comfortable talking about yourself with clients or do you actively, like, keep the focus on them and their stories because you maybe don't want to share?

[Megan Garber]

I feel comfortable. I'll share anything. Sometimes I feel like I don't have anything that interesting to share, and so then I don't want to talk about myself. Cause like. Oh, are you taking vacations? No.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Okay, cool.

[Megan Garber]

That's a lot of people really are. That is their number one personal question. Do you have any trips planned?

[Rebecca Rashid]

Yeah, that is a lot of people. Oh, I'm very guilty of that. I'm so guilty of that. Because it's like, it's not too personal.

[Megan Garber]

Right.

[Rebecca Rashid]

But maybe it gives us something to talk about. Yeah.

[Julie Beck]

It's my conversation filler. When I have, like, pretty much nothing left, I say, do you have any trips. Trips planned? Because I like, we gotta, like, we gotta drum something up here.

[Megan Garber]

Like, it could really go somewhere where you're talking about a trip and, like, fun things. But it. The potential for a dead end is. It's high.

[Julie Beck]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Rashid]

That's how you know you're scraping the bottom of the barrel, I guess. Yeah.

[Julie Beck]

Sort of like talking about the weather, you know?

[Nadia Yada]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Okay.

[Julie Beck]

That's how I feel.

[Rebecca Rashid]

I'm gonna be self conscious about that question from now on.

[Julie Beck]

Sorry, I don't mean to make you also, though, like.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Yeah, but that. That does remind me of something I wanted to ask too, because I feel like a lot of what we've been talking about is, like, ways that the small talk manifests, like, very uniquely to your job. And so how much do you feel like the skills that y'all have here translate into the real world versus what is pretty specific to, like, this interaction in this relationship?

[Megan Garber]

I feel like it translates. It's exactly the same, like, immediately for.

[Julie Beck]

I think you're really good at that. I struggle with that because sometimes being in the hair salon, I'm really in my comfort zone in this weird way. And I'll see the same person at, like, the coffee shop or something, and I sort of stumble on my words. And I sort of stumble. I don't. I. I get like, a little awkward. And I think that's more my. I get some social anxiety going on if it's people I don't know. And this goes back to your introvert versus extrovert question. If it's People I don't know. I can do that, like, small talk thing to an extent, but then I. I can't go all the. I can't get all the way because it's a bigger setting, there's more people. I'm really good in that, like, sort of one on one.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Yeah.

[Julie Beck]

Moment.

[Megan Garber]

Like, even the hair salon, it really is, I think, like a safe space in the community. Because who am I gonna tell? I'm not so invested that telling me is gonna have, like any major impact in their personal life so they can get things off their chest and feel safe. That it's. It's not like a risk.

[Julie Beck]

Right, right. And I do agree. If you're not having those relationships in your community, you are missing out on just sort of like, it's personal, but it's casual and there's.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Yeah. I don't know. I don't know how we get to a place where we just accept that feeling awkward won't kill us.

[Megan Garber]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Rashid]

But I'm not there yet.

[Becca Rashid]

I'm curious if part of the stress, too is that once you start a conversation with someone and if you do start to feel awkward and maybe you're not comfortable being honest right away about the fact that you're feeling awkward and you want to dip out of the conversation, it can be hard to do that.

[Rebecca Rashid]

For me, a situation that can cause some anxiety is if I am trapped with, say, like an acquaintance on a train. And maybe that train ride is half an hour long. And what are we going to do? And I would love to tell you about a man that I once knew, an acquaintance of mine from college, who I truly would not remember at all were it not for this moment. He was a friend of a friend. And one day we were both on the same train going down to Chicago together. I went to school outside of Chicago. And so this was like a good 40, 45 minute train ride. And he pulled the most, like, amazing uno reverse ninja trick I've ever seen in conversation to this day, which is, you know, we got on the train and I'm like, oh, God, okay, I have to talk to him because we know each other. And so we did the very classic, like, hey, how's it going? How's the one thing that I know about you? It's still good. How's the one thing that I know about you? It's fine. And then we ran out of material.

[Becca Rashid]

Uh, oh.

[Rebecca Rashid]

And he just said, it's been so great talking to you. I'm gonna go read my book now. And then we Both sat down on opposite sides of the train and we read our books and we took that half hour train ride down to Chicago and when I got off the train, we did like a friendly wave. And I actually don't think we ever saw each other again. But I've thought about this man so regularly for the past like 10 years because he just handled that interaction in such a smooth way that you almost never see.

[Nadia Yada]

I think we feel kind of more awkward than ever about these kinds of things. Meeting new people or the conversation in the elevator and it seems to stop people.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Why do you say you think that we're more fearful of awkwardness than we used to be?

[Nadia Yada]

I think maybe some of it has to do with the fact that, you know, we don't have to interact with people as much as we used to. We can do it through our social media or we can get absorbed in our phones or stay in the comfort of our home and stream some show. There's all these outs from actually being face to face with people and going through those uncomfortable moments of trying to get to know somebody for the first time, or dealing with the prospect that they might reject us, that maybe they don't want to hang out. And that's a scary thing as well. So I think there's these alternatives about how we can spend our time that are kind of semi social or faux social, but I think that's actually damaging because it keeps us from doing the hard work of getting face to face and actually working to build a friendship.

[Rebecca Rashid]

What do you mean by semisocial faux social?

[Nadia Yada]

Well, you know, if you're texting back and forth with somebody, that's fine, but it's obviously not as good, right, as sitting down with them for a long dinner and getting into just a deep conversation. And same thing with social media. We've kind of put our best foot forward on social media and we might have some nice interactions, but they're not as gratifying as a face to face interaction with somebody is.

[Rebecca Rashid]

The texting and the faux social interactions to some degree maybe like our way of preparing to go to Wendy's?

[Nadia Yada]

Yeah, definitely. That is a good point. In online dating, for example, you might send messages back and forth or whatever, and that kind of gives you a sense of the person gets the interaction rolling a little bit before you actually meet up, when all you really want to do is get face to face and figure out if there might be some kind of chemistry here. But even in platonic situations, it's the same thing. We can get stuck mentally preparing for something that should have happened a long time ago.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Yeah, well, one consequence of this fear of awkwardness is people go to parties or they go to bars, and they only talk to people they already know. Have you noticed that in your life?

[Nadia Yada]

Oh, for sure. You know, it's another thing kind of makes me just want to go over and say things I have no business saying to other people. Like what? I just want to say, like, go meet other people. You know, you're standing here in your group of three you came in with, and you look semi sad. You know, go talk to these other people you want. You want to talk to.

[Rebecca Rashid]

So how can we break out of that? Do we really need to break out of that, or is it fine to just embrace the safety of hanging out with my existing friends at a party?

[Nadia Yada]

My bias would be, I don't think that's okay. You know, there's all this disconnection going on, so the average person could benefit from more friends and certainly benefit from more friends that they've built some quality intimacy with and they feel they can go to in a time of need. So if we go with that perspective, then, yeah, you know, we should break out of our shell and we should cross that junior high dance floor of sorts and go talk to somebody new. Knowing that this person might reject us or knowing that the interaction might be a little bit awkward, but that's okay.

[Rebecca Rashid]

I mean, to some degree, it's a justified fear you probably will feel awkward. Like, you actually aren't gonna make it through this life, like, without being awkward in social situations. But I think, like, Tai made me realize that part of what makes things so awkward sometimes is trying to pretend that they're not. Like, all of his advice would boil down to just be honest. Like, just go up to those people that you don't know at the party and say, I don't know anyone at the party. Can I hang out with you? And, like, I would never in a million years have thought to say that to somebody. Like, I would probably try to be, like, nonchalant by the punch bowl and, like, sidle my way into a conversation and hope it was just cool and nobody noticed that I didn't really belong there. You know, some of what is really challenging about small talk is it's so situational. Small talk with someone you admire on a train is different than small talk on a first date. And then there's also each individual person's reactions and, like, whether they want to be left alone and how open they are to conversation and how awkward you feel and how awkward they feel. But I think there can be a middle path where you read the room a bit. Maybe you have some questions in your back pocket. And you know, there's certainly times where I leave my headphones in and I'm looking at my phone and I don't really want to be spoken to either. But I think we have to bear in mind what we miss out on if we do that all the time. Yes.

[Becca Rashid]

And I think that's exactly what I wonder is if what gets lost is all of us getting used to not trying to start up a conversation with anyone out of fear or out of fear that it won't lead anywhere. It doesn't mean anything.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Yeah, I remember Mimi and Aaron talking a lot about how fueled they actually are by all the conversations that they have at work. And like, not just purely for entertainment value, but also like feeling like these conversations are meaningful and they are bringing something unique and special into their lives. Although it was reassuring for me to hear that they struggle with it sometimes too.

[Becca Rashid]

I was surprised by that.

[Rebecca Rashid]

Yeah, I know. It's just that they were interested in people and just like having a genuine curiosity for the person that's in front of you fuels conversation as meta as that is.

[Becca Rashid]

We gotta talk about it. We gotta talk.

[Rebecca Rashid]

On that note, Becca, it's been so great making a podcast with you and I'm gonna go read my book now.

[Becca Rashid]

That's all for this week's episode of how to Talk to People. This episode was produced by me, Rebecca Rashid, and hosted by Julie Beck. Editing by Jocelyn Frank and Claudina Bathe. Fact checked by Enna Alvarado. Our engineer is Rob Smirciak.

[Ty Tashiro]

This was the final episode in our special collection, how to Slow Down. If you enjoyed this episode, take a listen to our fourth season, how to Talk to People. You can find all seven episodes wherever you get your podcasts. We'll be back with a new season of How TO Soon.