Best of “How To”: Waste Time

Summary

Podcast Summary: How To Age Up – Best of “How To”: Waste Time

Introduction In the episode titled "Waste Time," part of The Atlantic’s "How To" series, hosts Ian Bogost and Becca Rashid delve into the modern obsession with productivity and the cultural narratives surrounding time management. Released on December 16, 2024, this episode explores the paradox of living in an age where technology accelerates our pace, yet leaves us struggling to find moments of true presence and rest.

Revisiting Productivity in a Tech-Driven World Becca Rashid opens the conversation by sharing a personal anecdote about waiting at a bus stop, illustrating the anxiety that arises from having to do nothing in a society that equates worth with constant activity. At [01:51], Ian Bogost remarks, “Oh, it was only four minutes, Becca. It’s not very much time,” highlighting the disproportionate stress we place on even the smallest amounts of unstructured time.

The Impact of Technology on Our Perception of Time The discussion quickly shifts to how technology has transformed our relationship with time. Becca notes, “All of those emails and texts and notifications keep us occupied at every given moment” ([03:09]), emphasizing how digital devices create an incessant demand for our attention. Ian adds, “For one part, we’re more efficient, but we still continue to feel like there’s just not enough time in the day” ([03:42]), pointing out the inefficacy of increased efficiency in alleviating time-related stress.

Interview with Oliver Berkman: Challenging the Productivity Paradigm The episode features an interview with Oliver Berkman, a journalist and author known for his critique of conventional productivity hacks. Berkman discusses the concept of chronophobia—the fear of time passing—and how society’s relentless pursuit of efficiency masks our fundamental anxiety about time's finiteness.

At [06:22], Berkman states, “This fact of it being finite is something that I think we obviously intellectually understand, but we don’t behave on a day to day basis as if time were finite.” He critiques the fantasy of mastering time through productivity strategies, arguing that this approach avoids confronting the reality of our limited existence.

The Myth of Infinite Time and Cultural Conditioning Berkman further explains, “We’re constantly trying to reach a kind of godlike position over our time” ([08:41]). He argues that the drive for maximum productivity is a way to deny our mortality and avoid making tough choices about how we spend our limited time. This cultural conditioning leads to a perpetual cycle of striving for future benefits, often at the expense of present joy and fulfillment.

Becca resonates with Berkman’s insights, sharing her experience of realizing that achieving exceptional accomplishments requires starting much earlier in life, which can lead to feelings of inadequacy and lost time ([09:47]).

Redefining 'Wasting Time': Embracing Presence The conversation shifts to practical approaches for redefining what it means to "waste time." Berkman introduces the concept of “atelic activities” – pursuits not driven by an end goal. He emphasizes the importance of being present without the pressure of productivity: “because of the world in which we live that is so completely committed to the idea that time must be used for future benefits…the only real way to use time really well… is to waste it” ([10:19]).

Balancing Mindfulness and Productivity Becca and Ian explore the challenge of balancing mindfulness with societal expectations of productivity. Becca admits, “I feel like I’m happiest when I’m just wasting time with people” ([16:08]), highlighting the intrinsic value of unstructured social interactions.

Oliver Berkman offers strategies to ease into a less productivity-centric mindset. He suggests starting with small, manageable changes, such as dedicating just ten minutes to a hobby without committing to it long-term: “If you tell yourself you’re going to do it for 10 minutes today and that’s it, then that is the point at which things start changing” ([28:46]).

Parenting and Presence The discussion turns to parenting, where the tension between being present and meeting future-oriented goals is particularly pronounced. Berkman shares his experience of encouraging his son’s playful engagement with music without enforcing rigorous practice schedules: “There is something about the letting go into those moments that is absolutely fantastic” ([19:32]).

Cultural Pressures and the Evolution of Patience Oliver delves into the evolving role of patience in a fast-paced society. He contrasts the traditional view of patience as a virtue for the powerless with its modern interpretation as a form of agency: “now, the default is that we’re all moving incredibly fast, and it becomes a form of agency to be able to sit with a problem” ([25:47]).

Becca reflects on childhood lessons about time, questioning whether teaching children that time is limited or unlimited fosters a healthier relationship with time as they grow: “Is it helpful to teach kids that time is limited or unlimited? And which one leads to kids having a better relationship with time as they get older?” ([26:43]).

Navigating Time Constraints and Emotional Burdens The episode addresses the emotional weight of time constraints, especially for those juggling work and family responsibilities. Berkman acknowledges the difficulty for individuals who must choose between essential tasks and quality time with loved ones: “Nobody should ever feel that they ought to do more than they can do” ([28:46]).

Conclusion: Embracing Time as Personal and Valuable In the final segments, Ian and Becca synthesize the episode’s insights, emphasizing the importance of viewing time as personal rather than a metric to be optimized. Becca concludes, “I just need to start thinking of my time as my own, not something that needs to be maximized or proven to other people” ([33:06]), encapsulating the episode’s core message.

Key Takeaways

• Technology’s Double-Edged Sword: While technology increases efficiency, it also perpetuates the pressure to remain constantly productive, leaving little room for genuine rest and presence.
• Challenging Productivity Myths: Conventional productivity hacks often mask deeper anxieties about time’s finiteness, preventing individuals from embracing the present.
• Redefining 'Waste Time': Accepting and valuing unstructured time as essential for personal fulfillment and mental well-being.
• Mindfulness Over Efficiency: Cultivating mindfulness requires intentional shifts in how we perceive and engage with time, starting with small, manageable changes.
• Parental Presence: Balancing future-oriented goals with present moments is crucial in parenting, fostering meaningful connections without the burden of relentless productivity.
• Cultural Reevaluation of Patience: Modern patience is redefined as a form of agency, enabling individuals to engage deeply with the present amidst a fast-paced society.

Notable Quotes

• Becca Rashid [01:18]: “Hello, Ian. Alas, I’m waiting at the bus stop and it seems it will never come. A small glimpse into how anxious I am.”
• Oliver Berkman [06:36]: “This fact of it being finite is something that I think we obviously intellectually understand, but we don’t behave on a day to day basis as if time were finite.”
• Oliver Berkman [08:41]: “We’re constantly trying to reach a kind of godlike position over our time.”
• Oliver Berkman [10:19]: “The only real way to use time really well… is to waste it.”
• Oliver Berkman [25:47]: “Patience… becomes a form of agency to be able to sit with a problem, sit with an experience, not need to bring things to the next stage.”

Final Thoughts "How To Waste Time" serves as a profound exploration of our contemporary struggles with time management and productivity. By engaging with thinkers like Oliver Berkman, the episode encourages listeners to reconsider their relationship with time, advocating for a balanced approach that honors both present experiences and future aspirations. This thoughtful discourse prompts a necessary reevaluation of how we navigate the fleeting nature of time in an increasingly fast-paced world.

Transcript

[Narrator]

Saint John's College is the nation's great books. College students explore 3,000 years of human thought in just four years or two. For graduate students, encounter history's most influential works where students engage in group discussions about the fundamental questions underlying human society. Learn more about St. John's undergraduate and graduate programs in Santa Fe, New Mexico, Annapolis, Maryland, including online options at sjc. Edu.

[Megan Garber]

Hey, it's Megan Garber, one of the co hosts of how to Know what's Real. We're excited to share with you a special series drawn from past seasons of the how to series. For the last few weeks, we've been revisiting episodes around the theme of redirecting energy and winding down. This episode is from season five, how to Keep Time, and it's called how to Waste Time. Hosts Ian Bogust and Becca Rashid explore what it can look like to let go in a culture preoccupied with productivity and why letting go could be just the right thing.

[Becca Rashid]

So, Ian, when I sent you that voice note yesterday, I just wanted to let you in my head a little bit. Hello, Ian. Alas, I'm waiting at the bus stop and seems it will never come. A small glimpse into how anxious I am. Just waiting for anything. I don't know what to do. Do I just start walking? Do I give up? Do I walk to the metro? At this point, who really knows? It's been probably four minutes.

[Ian Bogost]

Oh, it was only four minutes, Becca. It's not very much time.

[Becca Rashid]

It's embarrassing. And I'm standing there and while I'm waiting, I'm switching between two modes of like, I should be making the most of this time. Let me read that article my friend sent me or check my emails or like, this is insane. It's only been four minutes. I should be a bit more mindful, but I know that I don't want to be wasting my time just standing there. I'm Becca Rasheed, producer of how to Keep Time, and I'm here with my co host, Ian Bogost.

[Ian Bogost]

Hey, Becca.

[Becca Rashid]

Hey, Ian. A lot of your writing and reporting here at the Atlantic is about technology and all the ways it's changed how we understand ourselves and the people around us. But I also think about how much tech has changed our relationship with time.

[Ian Bogost]

Oh, yeah, sure. I mean, technology in general tends to make things faster, right?

[Becca Rashid]

Of course.

[Ian Bogost]

Trains and airplanes get you places faster. Factories and their machines build things faster. But, you know, communication technologies, telephones and the Internet and whatnot, those allow us to send and receive information faster and a lot more frequently, too.

[Becca Rashid]

And all of those emails and texts and notifications keep us occupied at every given moment. It gives us more stuff to do, and it makes it easier to do something all the time, right?

[Ian Bogost]

Yeah, all the time.

[Becca Rashid]

And I think that's exactly what makes it harder to tolerate wasting time just doing nothing or being alone with your thoughts.

[Ian Bogost]

Your laptop, your smartphone, all the stuff you bring with you. They do make it easier to get more work done or more socializing or banking or whatever it is that you're doing on your phone.

[Becca Rashid]

Right, right.

[Ian Bogost]

So, you know, for one part, we're more efficient, but we still continue to feel like there's just not enough time in the day.

[Becca Rashid]

Right.

[Ian Bogost]

And, you know, Becca, in your last season, you talked about the difficulty of building meaningful relationships. And when it comes down to it, most people, they just need more time to do that.

[Becca Rashid]

But even when we do have more than enough time, we don't know how to lean into the moment the way we used to. We're either anxiously planning for the next task or we're being compulsively productive because we're sort of nervous about free time in this new way.

[Ian Bogost]

Yeah. I mean, all this time stuff can just feel really slippery. One moment you know what you want to do, and you just can't find the time to do it, but then the next moment, you're just swimming in time that you don't know what to do with.

[Becca Rashid]

Right.

[Ian Bogost]

So hopefully we can make sense of some of those problems this season.

[Becca Rashid]

This is how to keep time.

[Ian Bogost]

So, Becca, when you're thinking about wasting time, what do you mean? Like, wasting time compared to what? To doing more work or like, you know, waiting to get back to your desk to do more work so that you can, what, send more emails? Isn't that just a waste of time, too?

[Becca Rashid]

No, I know, I know, but I always have the thought in the back of my head that my time is limited. There's actually something called chronophobia, where some people really worry about that experience of time passing. Or I can understand that impulse to feel like time is withering away if you're not doing something productive with it.

[Ian Bogost]

Sure.

[Becca Rashid]

I don't know. It makes me wonder how we got to this point of measuring our own time and other people's time. How do we actually spend less of our time measuring how much of it is being wasted?

[Ian Bogost]

When you think about it, isn't all your time always being put to use? You're there in your body and your mind. You're living through your day and your life, no matter what you're getting done and your time is finite, your years on Earth are numbered and you're never going to be able to do everything you want to do or everything possible because of that. So maybe we, rather than chasing it, need to figure out how to be in time, being in time rather than chasing time.

[Oliver Berkman]

I was completely freaked out when I first did this calculation and figured out that the average lifespan in the developed world is around 4,000 weeks. Obviously you don't know how many weeks you're going to get in any individual case.

[Becca Rashid]

So, Ian, that's Oliver Berkman. He's a journalist and an author. He used to write a column for the Guardian where he wrote a lot about productivity hacks and personal development.

[Oliver Berkman]

This fact of it being finite is something that I think we obviously intellectually understand, but we don't behave on a day to day basis as if time were finite.

[Becca Rashid]

And during our interview he mentioned what he called a disillusionment with all the self help solutions.

[Ian Bogost]

Yeah, yeah, I feel that.

[Oliver Berkman]

So I think an awful lot of that kind of conventional productivity advice is really based on keeping this fantasy alive that very soon, next few weeks, next few months, at some point you're going to get to this place where you are on top of things, where you have got your arms around everything. You're the sort of air traffic controller of your life, you know.

[Becca Rashid]

But then one day, after years of being in the weeds of the lifestyle advice, he had a kind of epiphany on a park bench during a really stressful week when he realized that none of the time management hacks were working.

[Oliver Berkman]

I was trying sort of increasingly frenetically and frantically and desperately to come up with the set of techniques and scheduling tricks that would enable me to get through this ridiculous quantity of stuff. And just being hit by the thought like, oh, oh, it's impossible. Ah, I see, right. It's impossible.

[Ian Bogost]

Oh boy, Becca. I mean, I have definitely also spent years chasing time. I know that feeling. But maybe Berkman is right. The trick is just to accept that it's impossible.

[Becca Rashid]

Berkman wrote a book in 2021 called 4000 Time Management for Mortals where he walks readers through his personal journey with trying to get on top of it all, on top of time, and failing miserably.

[Oliver Berkman]

We're constantly trying to reach a kind of godlike position over our time.

[Becca Rashid]

Okay, when you say a godlike position, I'm thinking like all forgiving, most merciful. But when you say godlike position over time, what do you mean by that?

[Oliver Berkman]

I think and Again, to some extent, this may just be the hangups and screw ups of me and some other people. But I think that a lot of what we're doing, when we claim that we're engaging in becoming more productive, more efficient, getting on top of things, getting organized, is really an attempt to kind of feel unlimited with respect to time, with respect to the tasks, responsibilities, goals, ambitions we might have for using our time. It's a way of sort of not having to feel what it really feels like to be finite, to have to make tough choices, to have to acknowledge that there are always going to be more things that it would be meaningful to do with time than we're ever going to have the opportunity to do.

[Becca Rashid]

It's interesting you say that I went through this phase in my early 20s where I realized if I wanted to be amazingly accomplished at anything, I would have had to have started when I was three years old. You know, whether that's like gymnastics or, you know, ice skating or what have you, I was already decades behind. And it can be really hard to cope with the realization that that time is gone and you may not have ample time to get there in the future.

[Oliver Berkman]

I think obviously it is possible in a very sort of down to earth way to use one's time well for some future goal, right? But I think that on a sort of deeper level, what a lot of us are doing when we're trying to use time well, in that sense, when we're sort of deeply committed, as American culture is especially deeply committed, you know, to the idea that every moment must be used maximally. Well, it's not only that, that becomes a very sort of capitalistic idea where the only real benefit is the profit motive. It's also just the fact that it's focused on the future, right? It's defining everything about now in terms of some more important moment coming later when it's going to actually have its value, it's going to cash out, it's going to have been worth doing. And so, because what happens when you do this is that you end up missing your life, you end up missing the present, or to speak to what you were saying, you know, focused on regret that you didn't start using your time in this rigorously instrumental way earlier in the past, you get to this very strange conclusion. The only real way to use time really well, you know, to actually find meaning in the present is by some definition of the term, to waste it. I think that in many ways, because of the world in which we live that is so completely committed to the idea that time must be used for future benefits. Everything we think of as wasting time, as pure idleness is really defined as that because it doesn't lead to something in the future.

[Becca Rashid]

Right? And I'm even referencing my childhood as wasted time when I should have been training to be a gymnast instead of just like a childhood, you know, but in adulthood it's harder to see it that way because efficiency, time management and productivity are all essential elements in how we make a living. So how can we approach this idea of wasting time and how we're conditioned to think about it not as something pulling us away from productivity, but just as a part of life.

[Oliver Berkman]

It's something that takes a positive effort. It feels like you shouldn't just be using your leisure time to go on a run. You have to be training for a 10k or something. You have to have fitness goals. It's kind of a bit impossible, embarrassing in some way maybe to have a hobby these days, but it's really not embarrassing to have a side hustle. And the only real difference is that one of those is something you're trying to turn into a business. Whereas, you know, if what you like doing is collecting, I don't know, stamps from around the world, that doesn't really work anymore. I'm not sure what happened to stamp collecting these days, but you know, like.

[Becca Rashid]

A non productive hobby for sheer enjoyment. But there's nothing materially valuable about that. Maybe with the right, I mean.

[Oliver Berkman]

Well, yeah. The philosopher Kieran Satir, he uses the phrase atelic activities. So, you know, activities that are not given their meaning by their telos or where they are headed. If I make the attempt to be more fully present, it's not going to feel great at first because I'm sort of running against everything I've been conditioned to feel and to think. And that's absolutely true in kind of listening, really listening to other people incredibly hard. It's really hard not to just spend a conversation thinking about what you plan to say next when the noise coming from the other person ceases for a bit, which is of course not really listening. So for me, a big part of this is just understanding that this does not feel second nature to many of us.

[Becca Rashid]

I hear you. I mean, even in this moment I find myself thinking about what you're saying and also ahead to all the questions that I have left to get through. It's sort of like when someone asks me what my name is and then I tell them and they tell me theirs, but all I can remember is my name. That I said out loud.

[Ian Bogost]

So, Becca, maybe it's a problem in our culture rather than in an us. Like, we're. We're just all, like, so wound up over making the most of every moment so much that we don't even really know anymore what making the most of a moment would even mean.

[Becca Rashid]

And, you know, Ian, I've even had friends tell me they're on dating apps almost as a way to productively use their time instead of scrolling on Instagram. At least they're, you know, building towards a relationship.

[Ian Bogost]

Okay, it's been a long time since I've dated, and I never use dating apps. Are you saying your friends are like, well, got some downtime. I better get my dating in?

[Becca Rashid]

Yes, definitely. Dating is its own version of a productive hobby, in my opinion.

[Ian Bogost]

I guess it makes sense in a certain way, like dating as productivity or as, like, an investment in your future partnership or whatever it is that you're after. Like, maybe that's where that idea comes from that it's, you know, I don't want to waste my time if this isn't going anywhere. Like, that sort of sentiment is about progress. Like, that a relationship is about moving forward and building into whatever comes next. You know, God forbid your relationship isn't going anywhere, Right? But, like, where is anywhere anyway?

[Becca Rashid]

I don't know. I feel like I'm happiest when I'm just wasting time with people. So when I'm trying to make the most of my time with someone, anyone, romantic or otherwise, I'm not at least trying to think about how much of my time they're taking up or the most efficient way to be with them or whether it's going somewhere or whether it's productive.

[Oliver Berkman]

If I am just sort of around the house with my son and my wife, it's very easy to sort of fall into what needs doing next. You know, this chore, that chore preparing for the next day. I think if you can do anything to sort of put yourself in a position where you have, you know, all gone on a walk or all gone to visit something or all watching the movie or whatever it is, if there's a sort of a framework around that, it's a little bit easier to step away from that instrumentalist mindset. When I remember. I think also bringing attention to the senses, as opposed to thought is really important. Just literally paying attention to sight, sounds, touch, smell, whatever, is a way of reducing the power that otherwise, naturally, for people like me anyway, goes to kind of compulsive thought.

[Becca Rashid]

So how can I be both Mindful and engaged with my time more generally without having to go full Zen mental shutdown mode.

[Oliver Berkman]

Just to be clear, I find being in this mindset, rather than the instrumental, future focused one, really difficult. And I think you can certainly get lost in thought. And I'm not sure I want to condemn that, because I think sometimes that can be a perfectly meaningful thing to do, but understand and expect that it's going to feel uncomfortable at the beginning. A lot of people these days say they don't have time to read anymore, and I think what they often really mean is that they don't like the experience of sitting down with a book because their minds are so conditioned to moving fast that it feels unpleasant. I've certainly had that experience. All I can do, and I find it extraordinarily effective. But it doesn't feel like an incredibly great insight or anything. But all I do is I remind myself that this is how the first couple of pages feel when you're wired for speed and you're just sitting down and you're just beginning to read a novel, and you know that's fine, but the discomfort does not kill you, and it lifts.

[Becca Rashid]

Hmm. So, Oliver, most of our conversation has been about the necessary mindset shift that's required to be more in tune with each moment. And, you know, it makes me think about my friends with kids because they have to be super present with their child in the moment, be present with themselves enough to be patient with their kid, and they also need to keep up with all the productive tasks and demands to keep up with their own lives. I mean, how do we balance these competing priorities when there is a sort of instrumental goal, you know, in the case of raising a child and making them into a compassionate human being in the future who can exist and thrive on their own and also be present with them in the moment.

[Oliver Berkman]

I find parenting to be an extraordinary crucible for all of this, just because there is so much pressure, both internally and externally, to treat all questions of what it means to be a good parent as questions about what you need to do in order to create the most successful future adult. You know, my son's learning to play the piano a bit. I'm trying very hard not to turn into a sort of tyrant form of parent, insisting on so much practice that it takes all the joy out of the experience. And when instead he's banging around on the piano and I'm banging around on the xylophone that we have in the house and just making sort of not exactly, exactly now, I don't Think that there is any part of me in that moment that is thinking, how can we make this band really good so that we can. So that we can start getting on tour, some income from touring and downloads. Right? I mean, there is something about the letting go into those moments that is absolutely fantastic. But where I would most naturally go would be like, okay, piano practice. This many minutes. Have you gone through these exercises with parenting and life in general? Always feels like you're learning just too late. But I am learning that there's value in the sort of ridiculousness of making those noises in the present, rather than where they might be leading.

[Ian Bogost]

So, Becca, the other day I met a colleague of mine for a drink after work, and we went to this sort of weird pub in this hotel, and there was no cell signal, no wifi network, and I was just sitting there waiting for him. So I just looked around at the people coming in, and I looked at the menu a few times, and I realized this is so rare. I finally couldn't do anything else. And so I didn't feel like I should be doing something else because there was nothing else I could really do.

[Becca Rashid]

Oh, interesting. I feel like if I was in your shoes, I would still feel like I should be doing something else.

[Ian Bogost]

I probably did feel that way, in truth, but that sensation that it's worse to do nothing than to delete emails on your phone, right? But, you know, it wasn't always like this. I wrote a piece earlier this year about this. What did people do before smartphones? I don't mean, like, for work or for entertainment, but what did they do during those off times when they were waiting for the dentist or whatever? And it was actually, it was terrible. We were super bored. You know, you would, like, I remember being a kid, and you'd, like, look through the Highlights magazine 100 times before the doctor finally called you. Or, like, reading anything you could find. Signs on the wall, staring at clocks. You know, in the past, when you had the magazine or whatever, you would burn through it, it would be expended. There was only so many pages. And once you'd read them or skimmed them, you were done. And your phone, your Instagram, whatever it is, there's always something new. Maybe it's not interesting to you, but it's new. And that feels like a difference. So that discomfort associated with having nothing new to see in the moment, that's kind of gone away now. There's always something new. And I think that makes it easier for us to think, well, I should be doing something new at every moment, right?

[Becca Rashid]

And that pressure to do something new at every moment. I've been at so many dinners and we just sit down, it's a group of people, and if there's even a brief lull in conversation, someone says, like, what are we doing next? Where are we going after this? But we just got there. Like, we're at the place, we're at the dinner.

[Ian Bogost]

You know, Becca, I wonder if it's hard to tolerate wasting time because we're always looking forward like that. But, you know, I mean, we didn't used to know that the bus was coming in four minutes because you could look at your phone and see it. I mean, it would come eventually, presumably, and you'd be just kind of forced to deal with the fact that the bus isn't there for you. You're just one person in the world and you just have to wait.

[Becca Rashid]

Patience, patience. We're always being tested. Like right now. We'll be back right after a quick break.

[Narrator]

St. John's College is for students who seek meaning in their lives, who ask hard questions of themselves and their world, and who dare to free their minds. In vigorous discussion based classes, students grapple with fundamental ideas by engaging, engaging with works by some of the world's greatest writers and thinkers, from Homer, Plato, Seneca and Euclid to Nietzsche, Einstein, Wolff and Baldwin. St. John's program of study includes over 200 great books from across 3,000 years of history, including philosophy, literature, politics, math, science and music. At St. John's faculty are known as tutors and not professors. This is because they will never profess to know anything. Rather than telling you what to think, they will help you ask great questions. Questions like how can human flourishing be maximized? What kinds of leaders do we want and need? Can personal peace exist when social chaos reigns? At St. John's you will learn to listen deeply and across perspectives, to speak and reason with precision, and to honor the value that each student brings to the conversation. St. John's graduates who are systems thinkers in a world of specialists go on to become writers, judges, diplomats, lawyers, school leaders, ethicists, linguists, scientists, researchers and more. Explore 3,000 years of human thought in just four years or two for graduate students on St. John's two campuses in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and Annapolis, Maryland. Learn about our robust financial aid and our academic programs at sjc. Edu. That's sjc. Edu.

[Oliver Berkman]

The art historian Jennifer Roberts points out that patience these days is actually a kind of really important form of control. It used to be that patience was something that people Rather condescendingly had recommended to people who didn't have power. Right. So in the days when women were much more likely to be sort of obliged to remain at home doing domestic things while men were out working in the world, patience was a virtue because it's the kind of thing that keeps people from complaining about their situation. But as society has sped up, patience changes its role. Like now, the default is that we're all moving incredibly fast, and it becomes a form of agency to be able to sit with a problem, sit with an experience, not need to bring things to the next stage or figure out where they're headed.

[Becca Rashid]

As a little kid and even now, sometimes just feeling like everything I wanted to do in life needed to be done today, like, the concept of more time tomorrow was never my default. And I remember my parents would always say, you know, why are you rushing everything? You're so young, you have so much time. Is it helpful to teach kids that time is limited or unlimited? And which one leads to kids having a better relationship with time as they get older?

[Oliver Berkman]

Yeah, there is a way of interpreting all this talk about time being limited and life being short, which is incredibly stress inducing. Right. It basically says, like, there's no time. You've got to get moving now. You've got to fill your life with a million extraordinary activities every day, because otherwise will you really have lived? I mean, I think firstly, kids in my experience have a very natural affinity for being more present and less sort of fixated on maximizing efficiency. But then the message, obviously in an age appropriate way, but the message here is, yeah, time is finite, but that's not a reason to start hurrying and fit the absolute maximum into a single day or a single lifetime. It's a reason to cherish the time that you get and to really show up for it and to enjoy it. I definitely went through a significant period of early adulthood where I was deep in the kind of time maximization, efficiency mindset. And maybe one has to go through that to, you know, come out the other end with some kind of insight.

[Becca Rashid]

So, Oliver, for families or people who do have serious time constraints, they don't always have the luxury to choose when to spend time with their children or when they need to be at work. Is there anything that can help make these choice restrictions a little less painful?

[Oliver Berkman]

I think a lot of this is easier for me to say than it will be for some, and it's much worse for somebody if the decision they have to make is between keeping food on the table and ever spending quality time with their kids, for example, they're just in a worse position than me. They're in the identical position to me only in the sense that in every hour they can do one thing with any moment realistically. And all the other ones they have to let go. It doesn't mean that the choices, the options that you have open to you are good ones. That depends on your situation in life and society. Absolutely. But it does mean that you can let go to a significant extent of being haunted by indecision or by guilt or by the sense that you ought to have been doing something else with it. Right. Or that you somehow ought to be doing more than you can do. Nobody should ever feel that they ought to do more than they can do.

[Becca Rashid]

I feel that way more often than not. But how do I begin to step outside this productivity mindset with my time?

[Oliver Berkman]

You can decide to adopt a certain hobby or change how you apportion your time so as to spend more time nurturing a particular relationship or something. You're not committing to it for the whole of the rest of your days. You just have to take a bit of your time now or very soon to do something that matters to you, even if it's only 10 minutes, even if you are not confident that you're going to be able to do it every day for the next month or anything like that, but to just do some of it. And I think actually this is a place where the focus on habit building can be quite counterproductive. Because if you tell yourself you're going to start meditating every day forever, that's quite a burden. And it's quite tempting to sort of put it off for a few more weeks until your schedule clears up. If you tell yourself you're going to do it for 10 minutes today and that's it, then that is the point at which things start changing, interestingly in one's life. I think. I think we all experience sometimes that sense of simply being in or simply being the flow of time, rather than having this kind of clock or calendar or what, however you visualize it hounding you or that you're constantly sort of fighting, it's just for itself. Well, that's obviously very close to a pretty deep sort of, I don't know, spiritual, Buddhist sounding, Taoist sounding idea about how actually only the present is real and that you have to sort of find value in it if you're going to find value anywhere. There's a real argument that wasting time in the way we define that these days is something that is extremely Important for us to learn to do.

[Becca Rashid]

Oliver, thank you so much again for your time. I've learned so much.

[Oliver Berkman]

Oh, it's been a pleasure.

[Ian Bogost]

So, Becca, I think what Oliver is saying isn't that we should try to capture the literal present moment that's impossible now always vanishes. It's gone. It's gone. It's gone. But it's like a slightly bigger now. Like a little chunk of the moment that you can be in and that you can feel happening.

[Becca Rashid]

I hear what Oliver is telling us being something more. Like, when I'm off the clock and I'm at home, I don't need to be rearranging my pantry immediately, as my grandma would love to have me do.

[Ian Bogost]

I need to do that, too.

[Becca Rashid]

I'm just so conditioned to be productive and feel like when I have a minute of downtime, if I'm not working towards one of those goals, that it is being wasted.

[Ian Bogost]

So, Becca, our show is called how to Keep Time. So keeping time. Like, I was thinking about that phrase. You know, how you use it in music? Like, you keep time in music, like, with a metronome. Yeah. Like the rhythmic sense of keeping time, like tapping your foot.

[Becca Rashid]

Yep.

[Ian Bogost]

You can't capture the present, but you can kind of feel it moving from present to present to present.

[Becca Rashid]

And I guess that's the goal, right? I mean, it's something I'm definitely bad at because I'm always thinking about maximizing my 4,000 weeks, if I even got that much time. And I think for me, I just need to start thinking of my time as my own, not something that needs to be maximized or proven to other people as something that I'm using properly. What does that even mean?

[Ian Bogost]

Right, because you're just using it properly or not.

[Becca Rashid]

Right.

[Ian Bogost]

You know, you might not be productive all the time. You might feel like you're wasting time, but the time that you spend is still yours. It's still yours even if you're not making something of it. I mean, maybe we need to make that absence of productive satisfaction. Okay.

[Becca Rashid]

That'S all for this episode of how to Keep Time. This episode was hosted by Ian Bogost and me, Becca Rashid. I also produce the show. Our editors are Claudina Baid and Jocelyn Frank. Fact check by Enna Alvarado. Our engineer is Rob Smirciak. Rob also composed some of our music. The executive producer of audio is Claudia. The managing editor of audio is Andrea Valdez.

[Ian Bogost]

Hey. Hey, Becca. They're finally making a movie called Clocks.

[Becca Rashid]

What?

[Ian Bogost]

It's about Time.

[Becca Rashid]

Oh, God.

[Narrator]

Yeah.

[Becca Rashid]

Stay with us for next week's episode where we explore why we pressure ourselves to look busy even when we're not.

[Ian Bogost]

That's on our next episode of how to Keep Time.

[Megan Garber]

If you enjoyed this episode, take a listen to season five, how to Keep Time. You can find all six episodes wherever you get your podcasts. Next up in our special Best of collection about how to slow down, we'll look at how finding joy and delight first begins with identifying what you enjoy A lot of people don't even know.

[Ian Bogost]

How they have fun anymore.

[Megan Garber]

As adults. They grow up, they forgot what fun looks like because they're so busy with all of their responsibilities and then all.

[Becca Rashid]

Of the things they think they need to be doing.

[Megan Garber]

And they don't realize, first of all, how they're spending their time.

[Narrator]

St. John's College is for students who seek meaning in their lives, who ask hard questions of themselves and their world, and who dare to free their minds. In vigorous discussion based classes, students grapple with fundamental ideas by engaging with works by some of the world's great greatest writers and thinkers, from Homer, Plato, Seneca, and Euclid to Nietzsche, Einstein, wolf, and Baldwin. St. John's program of study includes over 200 great books from across 3,000 years of history, including philosophy, literature, politics, math, science and music. At St. John's faculty are known as tutors and not professors. This is because they will never profess to know anything. Rather than telling you what to think, they will help you ask great questions. Questions like how can human flourishing be maximized? What kinds of leaders do we want and need? Can personal peace exist when social chaos reigns? At St. John's you will learn to listen deeply and across perspectives, to speak and reason with precision, and to honor the value that each student brings to the conversation. St. John's graduates who are systems thinkers in a world of specialists go on to become writers, judges, diplomats, lawyers, school leaders, ethicists, linguists, scientists, researchers, and more. Explore 3,000 years of human thought in just four years or two for graduate students on St. John's two campuses in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and Annapolis, Maryland. Learn about our robust financial aid and our academic programs at sjc. Edu. That's sjc Eduardo.