How to Defy Death

Summary

Podcast Summary: How to Age Up – Episode: How to Defy Death

Podcast Information:

• Title: How to Age Up
• Host/Author: The Atlantic
• Description: The science around aging is expanding but are our cultural narratives keeping up?
• Episode: How to Defy Death
• Release Date: April 7, 2025

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Introduction to Longevity Culture

Timestamp: [00:59] - [02:38]

The episode opens with Yasmin Tayag and Natalie Brennan discussing the contemporary obsession with longevity. Yasmin expresses skepticism about the desire to live forever, emphasizing a preference for a long, healthy, and happy life over eternal existence. Natalie shares her fear of death and the exhaustion that comes with the uncertainty surrounding it.

Notable Quotes:

• Yasmin Tayag: “Hell, no. Absolutely not. Like, of course I want to live, like, a long and healthy and happy life.” ([01:02])
• Natalie Brennan: “I don't want to live forever, but I'm really scared of death.” ([01:26])

Historical Perspective on Health Trends

Timestamp: [02:01] - [04:17]

Yasmin provides a historical context, comparing modern wellness trends to past health practices such as bloodletting in the 1700s and John Harvey Kellogg’s “electric light bathing” in the early 1900s. She highlights how each era has its own set of health fads aimed at defying illness and promoting longevity.

Notable Quotes:

• Yasmin Tayag: “People were doing bloodletting... because they thought you could get rid of illness in the body and be healthier.” ([02:22])
• Yasmin Tayag: “Kellogg... was promoting things like electric light bathing.” ([02:54])

Natalie connects the rise of wellness culture with the Enlightenment’s challenge to religious doctrines, suggesting that wellness has become a central organizing principle in modern life, much like religion once was.

Notable Quotes:

• Natalie Brennan: “Wellness culture today... maybe religion used to take the place of.” ([03:21])

The Intersection of Wellness and Longevity

Timestamp: [04:17] - [08:22]

Yasmin and Natalie discuss the current administration’s focus on health policies and the proliferation of supplements promising longevity. The conversation shifts to Timothy Caulfield, a professor and research director at the Health Law Institute, who delves deeper into the merging of wellness culture with the quest for longevity.

Notable Quotes:

• Natalie Brennan: “Every day I [see] a different supplement promising to improve me somehow.” ([04:34])
• Timothy Caulfield: “There's this idea that if you're not doing this, there's something wrong with you.” ([05:06])

Biohacking: Science or Hype?

Timestamp: [05:34] - [13:32]

Timothy Caulfield explains the concept of biohacking, distinguishing between its original meaning—incorporating technology into the body—and its modern interpretation involving supplements and extreme wellness practices. He critiques the lack of substantial scientific evidence supporting many biohacking claims.

Notable Quotes:

• Timothy Caulfield: “Biohacking now... includes using some kind of technique or procedure or supplement in order to optimize yourself.” ([05:34])
• Timothy Caulfield: “There is no good evidence to suggest that cold plunges are going to have a dramatic impact on your health.” ([06:45], [08:22])

The discussion includes examples like cold plunges and supplements, highlighting the discrepancy between popular beliefs and scientific validation. Yasmin shares her personal experience with cold plunges, enjoying the immediate benefits but recognizing the lack of long-term scientific support.

Notable Quotes:

• Yasmin Tayag: “I have to admit I have done the cold plunge. I was very skeptical going in, but I really enjoyed it.” ([08:22])
• Natalie Brennan: “I love to jump into cold water... it was the just sweetest moment of my year so far.” ([10:10])

The Placebo Effect and Perceived Benefits

Timestamp: [11:08] - [18:39]

Natalie introduces the concept of the placebo effect, referencing Henry Beecher’s 1955 study and a Harvard Medical School study that found the placebo effect can be up to 50% as effective as real drugs. They explore how belief in a practice, like cold plunges, can result in perceived health benefits regardless of scientific backing.

Notable Quotes:

• Natalie Brennan: “The placebo effect was up to 50% as effective as real drugs.” ([11:37])
• Yasmin Tayag: “If you believe it's gonna make you feel awesome, it will.” ([12:31])

Timothy cautions against attributing longevity to such practices, emphasizing the importance of enjoying activities for their immediate benefits rather than unrealistically expecting them to extend lifespan.

Notable Quotes:

• Timothy Caulfield: “But the promise here is actual sort of biological change, right, that it's going to have a measurable impact on how long you live. And we just don't have good studies to back that up.” ([08:58])

Scienceploitation and Public Understanding

Timestamp: [13:32] - [21:49]

Timothy introduces the term scienceploitation, describing how legitimate scientific language is co-opted to market unproven products. He uses stem cells as an example, showing how their scientific potential is misrepresented in consumer products to create a false sense of legitimacy.

Notable Quotes:

• Timothy Caulfield: “Scienceploitation has become a very, very common marketing ploy. In fact, I think it's almost universal now.” ([16:32])
• Timothy Caulfield: “Assume nothing works.” ([16:57])

He advises consumers to adopt basic, evidence-based health practices such as not smoking, exercising, eating healthy, and building strong communities, rather than falling for high-tech biohacks with dubious efficacy.

Notable Quotes:

• Timothy Caulfield: “The best diet is the diet that's healthy, sustainable, and works for you.” ([09:05])
• Timothy Caulfield: “You don't smoke, you exercise, you know, move, just move.” ([17:32])

Impact on Public Health and Mistrust

Timestamp: [21:57] - [32:56]

The conversation shifts to the broader implications of the longevity movement on public health. Timothy explains how the focus on individual optimization can undermine public health initiatives by shifting responsibility solely onto individuals, thereby reducing support for communal health measures.

Notable Quotes:

• Timothy Caulfield: “...building communities that foster those basic things.” ([32:19])
• Timothy Caulfield: “Aging shouldn't become a contest, you know, that you suffer through to get to the finish line.” ([37:01])

He addresses the role of mistrust in conventional science, particularly among marginalized groups, and criticizes the wellness industry for exploiting these sentiments without addressing systemic issues in healthcare.

Notable Quotes:

• Timothy Caulfield: “The wellness industry... they're exploiting that issue.” ([28:25])
• Timothy Caulfield: “We have to try to fix the problem, not sell products on the back of the problem.” ([28:47])

Navigating Uncertainty and Embracing Science

Timestamp: [32:56] - [39:33]

Yasmin introduces the idea from Timothy’s book, Certainty of Illusion, focusing on the difficulty of accepting uncertainty in health and the allure of definitive solutions. Timothy emphasizes embracing the scientific process, recognizing its evolving nature, and avoiding the trap of seeking quick fixes.

Notable Quotes:

• Timothy Caulfield: “Science is a process, right? And if you use that scientific process to come to a conclusion 20 years ago... that's science working, right?” ([33:45])
• Timothy Caulfield: “Living well and enjoying life... helps with longevity too.” ([37:07])

He encourages listeners to rely on proven public health measures and to foster community well-being rather than chasing unverified biohacks.

Notable Quotes:

• Timothy Caulfield: “Celebrate that evolution of science and of evidence.” ([37:01])

Conclusion: Embracing a Balanced Approach to Aging

Timestamp: [39:28] - [40:25]

Yasmin and Natalie conclude by reiterating the importance of adopting sustainable, evidence-based health practices over the pursuit of unproven longevity hacks. They emphasize the value of community, joy, and living well as key components of a healthy, extended life.

Notable Quotes:

• Natalie Brennan: “There are these tangible steps that we can work into our day to day at any point to commit to a practice of living healthier.” ([38:56])
• Timothy Caulfield: “Aging shouldn't become a contest... it's about living well and enjoying life.” ([37:01])

---

Key Takeaways:

1. Historical Context: Longevity and wellness trends have evolved over centuries, often lacking scientific validation.
2. Biohacking Skepticism: Many modern biohacking practices, such as cold plunges and supplements, are popular but lack substantial scientific evidence regarding their impact on longevity.
3. Scienceploitation: The misuse of scientific terminology to market unproven products misleads consumers and undermines trust in legitimate science.
4. Public Health vs. Individual Pursuits: Emphasizing individual optimization can detract from supporting essential public health initiatives that have historically proven to extend lifespans effectively.
5. Embracing Uncertainty: Accepting the inherent uncertainties in health and aging, and relying on evidence-based practices, fosters a healthier and more sustainable approach to longevity.

Final Thoughts:

The episode underscores the importance of distinguishing between genuine scientific advancements and the hype surrounding modern wellness trends. By focusing on proven health practices and fostering community well-being, individuals can pursue a healthier, longer life without falling prey to unfounded biohacks.

Transcript

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[Natalie Brennan]

Do you want to live forever?

[Yasmin Tayag]

Hell, no. Absolutely not. Like, of course I want to live, like, a long and healthy and happy life. I would love to live to, like, 90, you know, enjoy the time with my family and friends. But, like, thinking about how tired I AM now at 37, can you imagine how exhausted you'd be at 100, 150?

[Natalie Brennan]

I don't want to live forever, but I'm really scared of death. I mean, it's kind of the one thing we really don't know anything about, right? And I feel like I want to get to the bottom of everything. I want the answers. And that's when we don't get answers about.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Maybe that's why we're so tired.

[Natalie Brennan]

Exhausting. I'm exhausted.

[Yasmin Tayag]

I. Hi, I'm Yasmin Tayag, a staff writer with the Atlantic.

[Natalie Brennan]

And I'm Natalie Brennan, producer at the Atlantic.

[Yasmin Tayag]

This is how to age up.

[Natalie Brennan]

Yasmin. You've been reporting on science health culture for the last, what, decade?

[Yasmin Tayag]

It's been a decade.

[Natalie Brennan]

From your perspective, does this current moment of longevity culture feel different to you, or is this just, you know, humans have always been obsessed with figuring out how to defy death.

[Yasmin Tayag]

I would say that we could look at any decade, even any century, and see that there were health trends that were prominent in the 1700s. People were doing bloodletting, cutting open a vein to let a couple ounces of blood out because they thought you could get rid of illness in the body and be healthier, right? And 200 years later, John Harvey Kellogg, the cereal guy, he was basically like the TikTok wellness influencer of the time. And he was promoting things like electric light bathing.

[Natalie Brennan]

What's that?

[Yasmin Tayag]

It's lying in a box surrounded by lights. And he said, this would, like, cure basically any ailment.

[Natalie Brennan]

I'd give it a try.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Kellogg also pushed things like three gallon enemas.

[Natalie Brennan]

Whoa.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Because he was very into the idea of cleansing your insides. And. And people love this stuff. Like, he had this spa where he would offer these treatments. And so many people went.

[Natalie Brennan]

I think one thing that's really interesting to me is as this wellness culture was becoming quite popularized in the 18th century, it's almost at the same time in which enlightenment is becoming the more dominant theory that's beginning to challenge religion. And so much of wellness culture today, to me, again, feels like it's trying to be the central organizing principle in our lives that, you know, maybe religion used to take the place of.

[Yasmin Tayag]

You know, I think what religion offers people is a set of instructions for living your life.

[Natalie Brennan]

Yeah.

[Yasmin Tayag]

And so if that's not being passed down by God, you gotta find it somewhere else. And I think the particular flavor of wellness right now tells us a lot about where we are culturally.

[Natalie Brennan]

I think that's right. We have an administration that's looking to prioritize or politicize health as a main tenant of its policy. There's a growing culture of people who are undergoing very extreme measures to try and live longer.

[Yasmin Tayag]

And also, it seems like every day I marketed a different supplement promising to improve me somehow.

[Natalie Brennan]

And I think the big question I have, though is, improve what? Like, what are we really trying to address or fix?

[Timothy Caulfield]

There's this idea that if you're not doing this, there's something wrong with you. Like, it's a noble pursuit, right? It's a noble pursuit. It's a righteous movement.

[Yasmin Tayag]

So, Natalie, that's Timothy Caulfield. He's a professor and the research director at the Health Law Institute at University of Alberta. He and his research team look at the ways that health and science are represented in the public sphere. So from product labels to misinformation and the promotion of unproven theories on social media. And we talked about the ways wellness culture, longevity, and especially biohacking are beginning to blur.

[Timothy Caulfield]

Well, I think that's a term that has taken on different lives too. You know, when I first started exploring biohacking, it was very much this idea of putting a microchip in your body or, you know, doing something kind of physical, using technology and merging it with the human body. I think biohacking now has morphed into the idea of it includes that stuff, but it also includes using some kind of technique or procedure or supplement in order to optimize yourself and I think in some ways there has been a pivot from wellness and, you know, the alternative medicine universe to the language of longevity. And I think it's been a shift from kind of other ways of knowing and perhaps culturally different ways to approach health to the science y kind of language of longevity. And the reality is it's all the same noise being repackaged as longevity.

[Yasmin Tayag]

So can you give me an example of one or two specific forms of biohacking that have become popular?

[Timothy Caulfield]

The cold plunges now has become really common. You hear influencers talking about it's very common in the manosphere, that masculine online influencer space. A cold plunge is a pretty extreme activity, right. And you might be doing it with a community of individuals which can make it fun and make it feel like it has a little bit more validity to it. And look, there are some studies that hint that it might have an impact on your immune system. And these are very preliminary. But the reality is there is no good evidence to suggest that cold plunges are going to have a dramatic impact on your health. And certainly there's no evidence to suggest it's going to help you live longer. And I think we see that a lot in the biohacking longevity space. Sort of a misrepresentation of the complexity and nuance of the actual relevant research. Supplements is another, I think, really, really common biohacking tool that we're seeing now. And again, the supplement industry is absolutely massive. You know, it's a multibillion dollar industry that is built on a foundation of very sketchy, questionable science, very light regulation. And yeah, look, I want to be really careful. Major caveat here. If you go to a science informed clinician and they tell you you have a specific deficiency that's different from the messaging that is emanating about supplements from the longevity industry. So I think those are two really common examples.

[Yasmin Tayag]

I mean, I have to admit I have done the cold plunge. I was very skeptical going in, but I really enjoyed it. I felt amazing after.

[Timothy Caulfield]

And I don't want to dismiss that, right. If, if people do find that invigorating. That's a thing, you know, that's a thing that's not to be dismissed. But the promise here is actual sort of biological change, right, that it's going to have a measurable impact on how long you live. And we just don't have good studies to back that up.

[Yasmin Tayag]

So what's an example of a biohacking practice that did have science behind it, but might still be problematic?

[Timothy Caulfield]

There have been examples of, you know, Extreme diets. You're probably familiar with the intermittent fasting trend, right? And that's a fascinating story. There's been interesting animal studies and even sort of studies with humans that have suggested that it might promote longevity. The problem is, I think it can also, I think, promote disordered eating short term. Like so many diets, they have helped people lose weight, but it's hard to maintain an extreme diet. There's really strong evidence to support this. The best diet is the diet that's healthy, sustainable, and works for you. That's the best diet. Right. A healthy diet is one that is healthy, sustainable, and works for you, and that often means something that you enjoy.

[Natalie Brennan]

I have to admit, I love a cold plunge.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Right.

[Natalie Brennan]

I love a cold plunge. Or I guess what I mean is I love to jump into cold water.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Where do you do this?

[Natalie Brennan]

Anywhere I could jump into cold. If I could jump in the East River, I'd be swimming in it.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Please never do that.

[Natalie Brennan]

I will never do that. On New Year's Day this year, I was at my best friend's house in la, and her parents have a pool, and it was filled even though it was January. It's not heated. And I was like, it's New Year's Day. I need to cleanse. And we jumped in together, and it was the just sweetest moment of my year so far. Honestly, I felt amazing for the rest of the day. I can appreciate a lot of the factors. There are just. I'm with my best friend, and it's a special day. And as somebody who spends a ton of time in my own head, water is a thing that really brings me into my body.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Yeah. And the jolt of cold just, like, shocks all the thoughts out of you.

[Natalie Brennan]

But I'm interested in this idea about the placebo effect. In 1955, a researcher named Henry Beecher published an influential paper called the Powerful Placebo. Its findings were debated for decades, but now there's wider scientific consensus that the placebo effect is real. So in a classic placebo effect trial, the control group wouldn't know that they're the control group. Right?

[Yasmin Tayag]

Right.

[Natalie Brennan]

So let's say one group is given a real medication and the other is given a placebo pill. And neither group knows which trial they're a part of. But there was a study by Harvard Medical School that found that the placebo effect was up to 50% as effective as real drugs.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Big.

[Natalie Brennan]

Huge. And they tested it by giving one group a migraine drug labeled with the drug's name.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Okay.

[Natalie Brennan]

And another group took a placebo that was labeled placebo.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Oh, they knew.

[Natalie Brennan]

They knew.

[Yasmin Tayag]

They knew they were getting the placebo.

[Natalie Brennan]

Which may indicate that knowing you're being subject to a placebo doesn't ruin the effects. Which is all to say, listeners who are worried about that we just ruined cold plunges for them. Enjoy.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Yeah. You know, if you believe it's gonna make you feel awesome, it will. Maybe it will.

[Natalie Brennan]

It maybe will.

[Yasmin Tayag]

But I think, you know, what I would like to see is to reframe these practices. If you love being at your friend's house and jumping into a cold pool on New Year's Day, like, do that. Absolutely. But don't believe that it's gonna make you live longer or be healthier. It might make you happier.

[Natalie Brennan]

Most definitely.

[Yasmin Tayag]

It might make you happier. And you know, that's important too, right?

[Natalie Brennan]

Doing things that make you happy, be in community, create joy, are good for your health.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Totally.

[Natalie Brennan]

But the promise that we're being sold that all of these very specific practices are the key to living longer, that one we need to analyze a bit.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Tim, we've been talking a lot about how biohacks are promoted as science based, even when they aren't necessarily. So. I'm curious, what's the larger impact that this has on public understanding of science more broadly?

[Timothy Caulfield]

And we've actually done a lot of research on this. I call it scienceploitation. So you take real science, exciting science, often science that has gotten a lot of attention in the popular press and in the information environment more broadly, and you take the language of that science in order to push misinformation or questionable therapies. One of the best examples of that, the stem cell space. I've worked in this space right from from the beginning, from the late 90s forward, I've been very closely connected to the stem cell research community. It is a genuinely exciting area of research. And there was a moment when it was the most like it was headlines kind of research field. It was controversial because it involved embryo research. And because of that, we got a lot of hyped language about the value and the potential for stem cells to revolutionize healthcare. That language. And by the way, that was hype and probably not justified given how complex science. Science is hard, right?

[Yasmin Tayag]

Science is hard. Stem cell. I still have to explain stem cells every time I mention them in an article. It's hard.

[Timothy Caulfield]

And it remains exciting, right? It remains exciting. But that language, the stem cell language, has migrated to pop culture. And it's everywhere. The word stem cell, it's on facial cream, it's on Beauty products more broadly, it's on shampoo. A bottle might, say, contains apple stem cells or contains organic, all natural stem cells. And we know research also tells us that using sciency language like stem cells does create a veneer of legitimacy. It does make it seem more believable, even if the use of the word doesn't fit with the product. And, of course, what's really happening there is they're trying to leverage the genuine and justified excitement about a real in order to give their product a veneer of scientific legitimacy. We've seen it happen with precision medicine. Everything's personalized now, and it works. And holy cow, it really is happening in the longevity space. Right? Because these are individuals that want to lean into the cutting edge. They want to lean into things that are sort of in front of the curve. And so therefore, it makes it more enticing. It makes it seem more legitimate. It makes it seem. Seem like they're doing the best they possibly can to live longer. And scienceploitation, as I call it, has become a very, very common marketing ploy. In fact, I think it's almost universal now. If there's a health or a nutritional product, there's almost some degree of scienceploitation associated with it.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Well, you know, with scienceploitation so rampant, how is the average consumer who is maybe not super well versed in how to assess the value of a study, you know, how are they supposed to make sense of all of this? If you see a face cream that says stem cells will renew your skin, how do you know if that's real or not?

[Timothy Caulfield]

Assume nothing works. I once pitched a book called Nothing Works, and the editor's like, okay, that's a little dark. That's a little dark, but you can almost do that. If there was some kind of revolutionary new approach to doing something, I promise we would know. You know, there would just be this broad acceptance of it, right? And for most of the things that we want to improve our life, we know the answer. There really are very few, if any, magical, magical answers.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Let's remind people what works. What are those things that we should know and not take for granted?

[Timothy Caulfield]

Yeah, look, you don't smoke, you exercise, you know, move, just move. Do what you love, Whether that's flipping tires or dancing or walking. Just do something you love. You eat healthy, you sleep, you take the logical preventative steps, right? You wear a seatbelt, you get vaccinated, you drink less alcohol, right? Less is best. And you surround yourself with people you love, and you have a good community that's it right? Oh, the very most important thing you need to do, pick the right parents, make sure you have the right parents, because that speaks to the genetic luck component to it. But more importantly, unfortunately, it speaks to socioeconomics, it speaks to equity, it speaks to the injustices that permeate our societies that really have an impact on how long you're going to live. And everything else you do. Everything else you do at best, is nibbling at the edges and might be even hurting those other things.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Do you have any advice for people who are genuinely trying to understand the research, like they really want to figure out, is this real interesting new science or is it just scienceploitation?

[Timothy Caulfield]

Never fall for what's often called the single study syndrome. So if it's one study that sort of counters a body of evidence, that's interesting. But always remember, you have to generally be patient and wait for the science to evolve, wait for a body of evidence to emerge. And always remember that science is hard and it takes a very long time to go from an animal study to a clinical study to actually being in the clinic or being on your shelves at a, at a grocery store takes an extremely long time, if it ever is going to happen at all.

[Yasmin Tayag]

How do you respond to people who say that data sources are biased or corrupted in some ways? This is something I encounter a lot in my work, where, for example, on a story I recently worked on about raw milk, a raw milk farmer told me that all of the data that I was looking at was produced by institutions that were funded by Big Ag. And so how do you counter that sort of thinking?

[Timothy Caulfield]

Well, so I think being transparent about that reality is important. And I think it's also important to highlight that on most of these topics, raw milk included, we can look at a body of evidence that points in the same direction, regardless of who the researchers are and how they're funded.

[Yasmin Tayag]

I often hear people's frustration that there isn't more scientific attention paid to alternative therapies. And perhaps if there were, we'd have more information about the benefits of cold.

[Timothy Caulfield]

Plunges, for example, something like cold plunges. First of all, there has been research on it. I think there's ongoing research on it, and I applaud individuals that are working in this space. But I also, and this is where the frustration comes in. Should research really be driven by pop culture interest in a topic or even the need to debunk something because of the pop culture interest in the topic, or should it be driven by scientific plausibility? Unfortunately, too often our Scientific resources are devoted to topics that have become popular and we're devoting resources to them because we have to debunk them. And of course, a really good example of that is something like the Wakefield study that suggested vaccines are tied to autism. Think of the tens of millions of dollars and the resources. Right. And the researcher time that's been wasted proving, you know, definitively that there's no connection between autism and vaccines. And the only reason we had to do that is because, you know, in pop culture, that myth took on a life of its own. But we continue to study it because we need more data to debunk it. Still, I recognize, and I'm glad that people want evidence on their things they're interested in. That instinct is healthy, the instinct for wanting more evidence on something. And good evidence, that's a good instinct and that should be supported.

[Yasmin Tayag]

We're going to take a short break, but when we come back, what's really going on here in this pursuit for longevity?

[Timothy Caulfield]

So if you look at even people like Brian Johnson, I mean, how often is that guy photographed with his shirt off?

[Yasmin Tayag]

Every time.

[Timothy Caulfield]

Every time.

[Yasmin Tayag]

I've never seen him with a shirt on.

[Timothy Caulfield]

Yeah. So I think that tells me, tells us something.

[Yasmin Tayag]

More on the longevity movement and its charisma after the break.

[Natalie Brennan]

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[Natalie Brennan]

I was never really a runner. The way I see running is a.

[Timothy Caulfield]

Gift, especially when you have stage four cancer.

[Natalie Brennan]

I'm Anne. I'm running the Boston Marathon, presented by bank of America. I run for Dana Farber Cancer Institute.

[Timothy Caulfield]

To give people like me a chance.

[Natalie Brennan]

To thrive in life, even with cancer.

[Timothy Caulfield]

Join bank of America in helping Anne's cause.

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Give if you can@b of a.comSupportAnn what.

[Timothy Caulfield]

Would you like the power to do? References to charitable organizations is not an endorsement by bank of America Corporation. Copyright 2025.

[Yasmin Tayag]

So, Tim, what's really going on here in this pursuit for longevity? You know, humans have been trying to defy death forever. And I'm curious, you know, with the current longevity push, what are people really chasing? Are they really just trying to live longer?

[Timothy Caulfield]

I actually, I think this is a really fascinating question because I think the answer is both, yes, they want to live longer. But if you listen to these influencers and you see flip through their books, they're promising more than just living longer, right? They are promising being better. They're promising sexy abs, they're promising a better love life, more success at work. It's an entire package. And living better, doing it better, being better. It's about this optimization concept. The other fascinating thing with the longevity movement, and this is interesting because I think it very much is about men, which historically was the case too, right? Living longer is very much about men. And there's this idea that if you're not doing this, there's something wrong with you. Like, it's a noble pursuit. It's a righteous, righteous movement to be adopting all of these approaches. There was an interesting study. I think it was a qualitative study, so we have to be careful how we interpret the data. But basically it was, you know, asking women their view on beauty products. And it was fascinating because they kind of knew they probably didn't work. Maybe they worked, but they still felt compelled to use them. You know, this idea that you ought to be doing this, right? And if you're not doing this, you're failing in some way is a pressure that's always there.

[Yasmin Tayag]

And is there a problem? Like what are you concerned about with that pressure existing?

[Timothy Caulfield]

Well, first of all, I think that pressure is a marketing tool, right, to use these often unproven therapies. I think it can be exploitive, right. And can create anxiety. There are some studies, and again, hard to study this well, so don't over interpret this research. But it does suggest that this kind of pressure does shift how people think about things like public health, because the emphasis is really, you, like, it's your job, right, to do these things. And if you are not healthier and not optimizing, hey, that's your problem. It's not my problem. It's not the government's problem. It's not, you know, your community's problem. It's. That's your problem. You know, if you emphasize sort of precision and personalization of health, it causes people to be less supportive of public health interventions. But intuitively, that that feels right because it really is about you, you, you, you, the responsibilities on you. And if you, and if you're not doing it, you're failing in pursuing all.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Of these new biohacks, these techniques that are supposedly backed by new and cutting edge science that isn't even out there yet. It makes me wonder if there's an element of mistrust involved in rejecting that public health science that we already have long known about. Do you think mistrust plays a role?

[Timothy Caulfield]

I do, I do. I think it's really important to recognize that historically there are groups that have been treated terribly by the healthcare system, by the scientific community. Women and people of color not listened to their problems, aren't taken seriously by conventional medicine. The biomedical research institution has not done enough research on women. The same with people of color. So this is a genuine problem. Unfortunately, what's happening is the wellness industry, the longevity industry, they're exploiting that issue. They're not fixing it, they're exploiting it. They're creating more distrust in the conventional system and not rectifying the problems with the conventional system in order to sell products, to sell ideologies, to sell a brand. So it infuriates me because these are real problems that need to be fixed. We didn't get it right. You know, let's try to fix the problem, not sell products on the back of the problem.

[Natalie Brennan]

Yasmin, do you remember the other day we were working on an episode and I happened out of the corner of my eye to see on your computer a headline about having a crayon's worth of microplastic in my brain.

[Yasmin Tayag]

I do remember that you were freaked out.

[Natalie Brennan]

I did not like that. And do you remember what I asked you?

[Yasmin Tayag]

What did you say?

[Natalie Brennan]

I instinctively was like, what do I do? And you said some very practical responses like, switch to glass containers, make sure your cutting board isn't plastic. But it was not enough to quiet my mind. I spiraled for a full day because the things that are in my control. Right. My Tupperware, for example, feel so disproportionate to all the factors that are out of my control. And so I really understand the impulse right now to want to take matters into your own hands when it comes to health and wellness. When you feel like there are all of these systems that don't have your.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Health in mind, that is so real. Like, that is such a real way to feel right now, like you are not in control of so many things that affect your health. Our bodies are supposed to be our ground zero for autonomy and control. And there is something so empowering about being able to make healthy choices for yourself, Especially if regulation is not keeping the plastic out of our brains. And it's even more frustrating to realize that there are companies that know that you and thousands of other people are feeling that way and have convinced you that you can buy your way out of that fear.

[Natalie Brennan]

And that's only looking at things through the individual perspective again, right? Because I want the crayons out of all the people I love's brains, too, not just my own. And even all the brains. I don't know. I don't wanna see a crayon anywhere.

[Yasmin Tayag]

You know, I didn't think of it until Tim mentioned it, but it's really true that what feels so pertinent to this particular moment is how individualized the pursuit of living longer feels. It's all about you and what you can do.

[Natalie Brennan]

Which is so ironic because I have to guess that if we looked at the times in which the human lifespan has actually increased the most, I would guess it would be directly correlated with the invention of public health initiatives.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Oh. Before we started to pasteurize milk, in, like, the late 1800s, a huge number of kids died from drinking bacteria tainted milk, right? And once pasteurization became standard, it turned that around. The kids stopped dying from milk. And then, obviously, vaccination, One of the biggest public health initiatives, it was estimated to have saved over 150 million lives in the last 50 years. And you know, things we take for granted, like clean water or like an actual sewage system instead of like flushing your waste into the east river, hugely decreased deaths from illnesses.

[Natalie Brennan]

But these inventions often take time, right? Like, these new initiatives can move slowly. So what do we do now while we wait?

[Yasmin Tayag]

So I want to zoom out a little bit and come back to this question of how are people supposed to try to live longer if that is something they want to do? In your new book, Certainty of Illusion, you discuss the illusion of thinking you have the answers to everything. Because we have so much information at our fingertips, the illusion is the certainty. But how can people break free of the illusion that they can hack their way into living longer?

[Timothy Caulfield]

Life is pretty random, and we want to control it. And that's one of the reasons conspiracy theories emerge, right? You know, people desire patterns, they desire answers. They want answers that sort of fit with their worldview. So, you know, recognize that there often is a lot of uncertainty and randomness and get comfortable with that. And there's a lot of uncertainty in science. Science is about uncertainty, right? Evidence can evolve. If science said one thing 20 years ago, and science isn't a person, it's not an institution, it's not an industry. Science is a process, right? And if we use that scientific process to, to come to a conclusion 20 years ago and that has evolved, science isn't wrong. That's science working, right? You know, aspirin, you know, our view on who should be taking aspirin as a preventative measure, that's evolved, right? You know, our view on using BMI as a, as a tool for public health, that's evolved. That's a good thing. That's science evolving. Don't view it as a way, a reason to get frustrated about public health or the institution of science, celebrate that evolution of science and of evidence. Because if you're not using that systematic tool to accumulate knowledge, if you're not using science to try to understand our world and make decisions, what are you going to use? We might have a huge breakthrough. And if that does happen, it's going to be really big news. I often ask. I did this on my last class. Just last week. I asked the class name 10 genuinely big scientific health breakthroughs that have happened in the last century, right? Genuinely transformative health breakthroughs. It's hard. It's hard, right? That have actually revolutionized. So you've got like clean water, that's more than 100 years. You have antibiotics. The list is pretty short, right? It's pretty, pretty short. The new GLP Ones like Ozempic and its competitors. I think that's fascinating, recognizing that we're still accumulating evidence about side effects and long term benefits and harms. But it's a pretty short list. And so remember that, remember that and lean back and lean into those basic things we can do for ourselves and really, really importantly for our community, building communities that foster those basic things. Aging shouldn't become a contest, you know, that you suffer through to get to the finish line. It's not a contest. And holy cow, it sounds kind of New Agey for a guy who's such a science geek. But I think it really is about living well and enjoying life and enjoying your friends and family and enjoying the journey. How New Agey is that? And the irony, of course, is the research tells us that living well and living a happy life, and that helps with longevity too, right? That helps that your ultimate goal too. So, yeah, pulling back from this idea of optimizing every corner of your life to, hey, living well.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Thanks so much, Tim. This has been such a pleasure.

[Timothy Caulfield]

Thank you.

[Natalie Brennan]

Yasmin. I'm still thinking about that question that I asked you about the microplastics. What do I do? And I think what I really wanted to hear in that moment was, it's fine, it's okay. You're like, it's not. I'm sorry, no. And I would know that it's not truthful. Right. I know that it's not okay. It's not fine. And in cognitive behavioral therapy, this is something called reassurance seeking. Have you heard of this?

[Yasmin Tayag]

I haven't.

[Natalie Brennan]

There's this book written by these two psychologists, Martin Sieff and Sally Winston, called Needing to Know for sure that a friend who has a very similar internal monologue to me recommended. And it's a CBT guide for compulsive checking and reassurance seeking. So instead of trying to constantly seek affirmation that everything is okay, this book instead helps you try and sit in the uncertainty and get comfortable with the idea that often we just can't know what's going to happen, which is really hard.

[Yasmin Tayag]

It's so hard. And I think from like a health perspective, people are bad at thinking about risk. And that's really what all of these public health interventions, all of the health interventions that are available to us are all about reducing our risk. It will make you less likely to get cancer or to have a bone fracture later in life, but it's never guaranteed.

[Natalie Brennan]

Right?

[Yasmin Tayag]

That's the whole thing about risk. There's no 100% sure way to get rid of everything. But you're bringing that risk down a little bit and that's the best we can do.

[Natalie Brennan]

And what I like about your conversation with Tim is that, you know, it kind of sits in a middle ground. Right. We can't 100% know that a certain supplement is going to increase our lifespan and we can't know that a new superfood is definitely going to help us age up. But there are these tangible steps that we can can work into our day to day at any point to commit to a practice of living healthier.

[Yasmin Tayag]

Yeah, we don't have all the answers, but we have some of the answers.

[Natalie Brennan]

And I think I can sit in that. You know, that might be enough for me. And for the days that I can't, when I can't sit in that thought, you know, those are the days that I delight in jumping into water.

[Yasmin Tayag]

That's all for this episode of how to Age Up. This episode was hosted by me, Yasmin Tayag and co hosted and produced by Natalie Brennan. Our editors are Claudina Baid and Jocelyn Frank. Fact Check by Enna Alvarado. Our engineer is Rob Smirciak. Rob also composed some of the music for this show. The executive producer of Audio is Claudina Baid and the managing editor of Audio is Andrea Valdez.

[Natalie Brennan]

Next time on how to Age Up. I'm here to tell you that your.

[Timothy Caulfield]

Mother and your grandmother are pretty much.

[Natalie Brennan]

Having a good time.

[Yasmin Tayag]

What we can learn about the benefits of aging and what we still get wrong about menopause. We'll be back with you on Monday.

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