Podcast Summary: How to Age Up – "How to Know What's Real: How to Know What’s Really Propaganda"

Introduction In the September 4, 2024 episode of How to Age Up, hosted by The Atlantic, Megan Garber and Andrea Valdez delve into the intricate world of propaganda. The episode, titled "How to Know What's Real: How to Know What’s Really Propaganda," explores the historical and contemporary facets of propaganda, its evolution alongside technological advancements, and its profound impact on society and politics. Renowned author and Atlantic contributor Peter Pomerantsev joins the discussion, providing expert insights into the mechanisms of propaganda and strategies to combat its pervasive influence.

Defining Propaganda: Historical Context The conversation begins with Andrea Valdez reflecting on traditional forms of propaganda, such as wartime posters and cartoons.

• Andrea Valdez (01:10): "You know, Uncle Sam posters during the war effort, you know, I want you and Rosie the Riveter. You know, we can do it. And you know, war posters from World War II and World War I, you know, where they're asking people to buy bonds or to ration food."

Megan Garber echoes these sentiments, highlighting the visually driven nature of historical propaganda and its roots in advertising techniques.

• Megan Garber (01:33): "These really bold, visually driven posters, basically almost like advertising billboards, except the products being sold are political causes."

Propaganda Techniques and Evolution The hosts and Pomerantsev discuss how propaganda has adapted to various platforms over time, maintaining its core objective of mass persuasion.

• Andrea Valdez (02:10): "One of the most fundamental ways to appeal to emotions is really just using charged language."

• Peter Pomerantsev (05:35): "Propaganda essentially means forms of mass persuasion... public education is meant in principle, to be for the benefit of the people receiving it. Propaganda is you trying to get somebody else to do what you want."

Pomerantsev emphasizes the distinction between propaganda and other forms of information dissemination, noting that propaganda often involves deceptive intentions for the benefit of the propagator rather than the audience.

Propaganda in Contemporary Politics The discussion shifts to the present-day landscape, where propaganda remains a critical tool in shaping political narratives, especially ahead of elections.

• Andrea Valdez (02:46): "There's a presidential election coming up, and it feels like so many people both here and abroad live in their own individual political realities. Clearly, propaganda has played a big role here."

Pomerantsev highlights how modern propaganda leverages technology to manipulate information and sow confusion.

• Peter Pomerantsev (07:01): "You're living in a world where truth has lost its value, a world of extreme doubt... making people feel absolutely passive, and essentially saying, look, in this world where there are no values, no truth, total confusion." (07:00)

Propaganda in Russia and Its Parallels to the US Drawing from his experiences in Russia, Pomerantsev compares Russian propaganda tactics to those observed in the United States.

• Peter Pomerantsev (07:58): "The Putin's propaganda... is defined by seeding doubt, conspiracy theory, suspicion, with an aim of making people so confused they don't know what's true and what's not."

He draws parallels to the American political climate, where similar tactics of doubt and mistrust are prevalent.

The Role of Cynicism and Trust in Propaganda The conversation delves into how propaganda fosters cynicism and undermines trust within society, leading to a form of nihilism.

• Peter Pomerantsev (08:21): "Effective propaganda always works with the grain of what people feel... super cynical... they don't end up free. They actually end up believing in crazy conspiracies instead."

Pomerantsev explains that excessive cynicism makes individuals more susceptible to propaganda, as they seek frameworks to understand an otherwise confusing reality.

The Intersection of Propaganda and Entertainment Garber introduces the concept of reality TV's influence on politics, particularly how shows like The Apprentice have blurred the lines between entertainment and political leadership.

• Megan Garber (11:53): "It's all about you. By giving debates the same logic as we gave reality shows... where we're doing everything to further a political culture where reality show stars are gonna win and keep on winning."

Pomerantsev connects this trend to the rise of personality-driven politics, where showmanship often trumps substantive policy discussions.

• Peter Pomerantsev (12:32): "Politics becomes all about personality clashes. Media are completely complicit... politics becomes about personality rather than about deep ideas."

Strategies for Resisting Propaganda The discussion turns to potential strategies for combating propaganda's influence, emphasizing the importance of humanization and factual discourse.

• Peter Pomerantsev (16:46): "Propaganda in the negative sense... is about dehumanizing the other. The first thing is to start to live in a culture where we do humanize each other."

He advocates for fostering empathy through culture, such as films and photography, to counteract dehumanizing narratives. Additionally, Pomerantsev underscores the necessity of agreeing on what constitutes evidence to facilitate democratic discourse.

• Peter Pomerantsev (18:35): "Once you've done that, you can move on to the next phase, which is agreeing on what we think evidence is."

Conclusion As the episode concludes, Garber and Valdez announce an upcoming Atlantic series titled Autocracy in America, which will further explore the themes of propaganda and its impact on democracy. The hosts reiterate the episode's central message: understanding and addressing propaganda is crucial for maintaining a healthy, democratic society.

Notable Quotes:

• Andrea Valdez (01:10): "I think even Looney Tunes had wartime cartoons that served as propaganda."
• Peter Pomerantsev (07:58): "Making people feel absolutely passive... in this world where there are no values, no truth, total confusion."
• Peter Pomerantsev (08:21): "Being super cynical doesn't make you free. It actually makes you more dependent on propaganda."
• Megan Garber (11:53): "Politics becomes about personality clashes... similar to reality shows."
• Peter Pomerantsev (16:46): "Propaganda is about dehumanizing the other... start with humanizing each other."

Key Insights:

• Propaganda has evolved from traditional posters to sophisticated digital narratives, maintaining its core objective of mass persuasion.
• Modern propaganda thrives on creating doubt and fostering cynicism, making individuals more vulnerable to manipulative narratives.
• The fusion of entertainment and politics, exemplified by reality TV, has intensified the influence of personality-driven propaganda.
• Combating propaganda requires fostering empathy, establishing common ground on evidence, and promoting democratic discourse focused on collaborative problem-solving.

Conclusion: This episode of How to Age Up provides a comprehensive exploration of propaganda's enduring presence and its evolving strategies in the modern era. Through expert analysis and engaging dialogue, Garber, Valdez, and Pomerantsev offer valuable insights into recognizing and resisting propaganda's manipulative tactics, underscoring the importance of empathy, trust, and informed discourse in safeguarding democratic values.