🍌⚾ "Burn the Boring" — Savannah Bananas Co-Founders Jesse & Emily Cole

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Burn the Boring" — Savannah Bananas Co-Founders Jesse & Emily Cole

The Best One Yet | Jack Crivici-Kramer & Nick Martell
Date: December 19, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this lively, illuminating interview, Jack and Nick sit down with Jesse and Emily Cole—the charismatic husband-and-wife co-founders of the Savannah Bananas—to explore how they've revolutionized baseball by “burning the boring.” The episode dives into their anti-traditional, fan-obsessed business model, their iterative approach to “banana ball,” creative failures and bold risks, and the powerful culture behind one of the fastest-growing sports franchises in America. Equal parts business case study, couple’s therapy, and masterclass in joy-driven disruption, this is an episode about challenging the status quo and leading with heart.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Meet Cute” and Origin Story

• Both Jesse and Emily were veterans of the baseball industry prior to meeting—Emily with Ripken Baseball and Jesse as a 23-year-old general manager.
• Their meeting: Emily’s boss attended Jesse’s conference, told her “I just met the guy you’re going to marry” ([02:53]).
• Began as professional contacts, became partners in “dreaming and doing” after connecting at a minor league promo seminar in 2011 ([03:46]).

Notable Quote:

“He was doing things like hosting grandma beauty pageants and having flatulence fun night... very odd in the industry. But I was intrigued.” —Emily Cole ([02:58])

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2. Building a Viral, Unconventional Business

• The Bananas went from a debt-ridden startup (sold their house to make payroll) to a $100M phenomenon with a million-person ticket waitlist ([00:53]).
• Jesse and Emily own 100% of the business—no outside investors, no venture backing ([07:14]).
• Anti-conventional financial focus: rather than maximization, all energy goes into fan experience and in-house operations, from merchandise to ticketing ([06:13]).

Notable Quote:

“We don’t even look at the bank accounts. We know we’re very healthy... but we also know that we invest very heavily. We do everything in-house.” —Jesse Cole ([06:13])

• Their “Anti-Business Model”:
  • No in-park advertising ([09:47])
  • All-inclusive ticket pricing (includes food and drinks; no $14 hot dogs)
  • Games broadcast for free on YouTube
  • No hidden ticket fees; Bananas pay the sales tax
  • The focus: “Fans first,” even if it means leaving tens of millions in potential revenue on the table ([10:20], [11:03])

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3. Fans First: Saying No to Short-Term Profits

• Deliberately say no to lucrative sponsorships to keep the product pure for families.
• The trust and loyalty built with fans generates growth via word of mouth and return visits ([11:51]).
• The “walk-off” example: Instead of typical baseball walks, a fan who catches a foul ball in the stands records an out ([01:17]).

Notable Quotes:

“Our North Star is fans first... We focus on the long-term fan over short term profits.” —Emily Cole ([10:20])

“You can’t serve 3.2 million fans by focusing on TV deals or sponsorships. Focus on the customers, serve them, and everything else takes care of itself.” —Jesse Cole ([11:40])

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4. Burning the Boring: Creating Banana Ball

• Systematically dissected every “boring” part of baseball to either eliminate or reinvent it ([14:41]).
  • No stepping out of the box, no mound visits, no walks (when walk happens, batter can keep running bases as far as possible; defense must throw to all nine players to stop him) ([15:44], [17:57]).
  • Games are two hours maximum; scoring is like match-play golf—each inning is a point, reducing the impact of blowouts ([16:35], [18:13]).
  • No bunting (“Bunting sucks. If you bunt, you’re thrown out of the game.” —Jesse Cole [16:02])
• Constant show: entertainment starts five hours before first pitch and goes well after final out ([13:21]).

Notable Moment:

“No one goes to a great movie and leaves in the middle. But at baseball, people leave all the time. So you make it so fans want more.” —Jesse Cole ([16:38])

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5. Relentless Iteration: Innovation + Failure

• Innovation only comes through trying; dozens of “failed” promotions every season, like the Human Pinata, horsehead race, and a 9am beer festival that drew 27 die-hard fans ([20:36], [21:26], [22:00]).
• Emphasis on a “testing, learning, doing” culture—new bits, dances, or promotions every single game ([22:48]).

Notable Quote:

“Most teams do fireworks every Friday and bobblehead giveaways. It’s so easy to do the same thing. We are willing to fail every night because we know we’ll learn faster.” —Jesse Cole ([22:48])

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6. The Formula for Fandom (and Fun)

Jesse’s “formula for fandom”—actionable steps for any company:

1. Eliminate friction (make things easier for fans/customers)
2. Entertain always
3. Experiment constantly
4. Engage deeply (do for the one what you wish you could do for many)
5. Empower action (let your team try and fail) ([23:26])

“Your job is to eliminate the friction. Then entertain always, experiment constantly, engage deeply… That’s how you create fans.” —Jesse Cole ([23:26])

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7. Doing the Opposite of Normal

• Inspired by mentor Mike Veeck’s “Innovation on Demand”: whatever’s normal, do the opposite ([26:33]).
• Bananas take days off in July and don’t schedule games on Mon/Tue/Wed, putting people first, just like Chick-fil-A's Sunday closure ([26:11]).
• Companies need “an attention plan, not a marketing plan” ([29:17]).

Notable Quote:

“No one gets excited about normal. No one comes home and says, ‘I met the most normal person today.’” —Jesse Cole ([29:17])

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8. The Social Media “Reps” Philosophy

• Bananas are masters of attention: over 4 million on the ticket waitlist, 15 million social followers (more than the Yankees + Dodgers + Red Sox combined) ([01:05], [11:51]).
• The secret: relentless experimentation, constant posting, and zero fear of flop content ([33:03]).
• Failure is ignored, only the memorable content is remembered.

“Pete Rose had the most hits… because he had 2,000 more at-bats than anyone else. Maybe you’re not posting enough.” —Jesse Cole ([33:15])

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9. Metrics vs. Magic: Decisions by Gut, Not Just Graphs

• The Coles don’t obsess over charts or dashboards: intuition and “heart” win, enabled by independence from outside investors ([35:06]).
• Big bets are made on ideas that “feel right” and seem fun.
• What-if? approach is used for bold initiatives (e.g. selling out a cruise, staging a game at a massive football stadium) ([36:17], [36:31]).

“Would it be cool to do a cruise? Would it be cool to play on the beach? If we think it’d be cool, we try it. You learn by doing.” —Jesse Cole ([37:30])

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10. The Creative Process: “Banana Soup”

• Inspiration drawn from a “Banana Soup” of influences: Disney, Steve Jobs, Harlem Globetrotters, SNL, Grateful Dead ([38:08]).
• Systematic creation: Jesse starts every morning reading, writing, and ideating before checking email or notifications ([38:26], [39:04]).
• Everyone contributes ideas: players, staff, creative team—there’s a culture of “plussing the experience” after Walt Disney’s philosophy ([39:25], [40:14], [40:22]).

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11. No Desire to Be MLB; Focus is on Experience, Not Size

• Scaling isn’t about outcompeting MLB, it’s about serving more fans with a unique experience ([41:38]).
• Expansion is focused but driven by fan demand, not outside pressure ([44:32], [50:46]).

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12. Long-Term, Not a Fad: Proving Staying Power

• Fan obsession, experiential differentiation, and meaning over mere fun distinguish Bananas from flavor-of-the-month “fad” sports ([43:15], [44:32]).
• Emotional stories (like supporting a bereaved family) are central; do the things that “don’t scale” ([46:48]).

Notable Story:

“A family lost their mom. The last gift was coming to a Bananas game. We turned that night into something unforgettable for them.” —Jesse Cole ([48:46])

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13. Crystal Clear Takeaways and Philosophy

• Focus: Be “impatient in how much you give to others, patient in what you want for yourself.” ([54:10])
• The magic is in relentless, passionate service—by doing things others won’t, you can do what you never imagined ([54:43]).
• IPO? Fan equity? Not in the plans: maintaining simplicity, vision, and independence ([53:18]).

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Notable Quotes & Key Moments

• “What’s normal? Do the opposite.” —Jesse Cole ([26:33])
• “No one gets excited about normal.” —Jesse Cole ([29:16])
• “There is no innovation without iteration.” —Nick paraphrasing Jesse ([20:02])
• “If you get excited about it, try it. You learn by doing.” —Jesse Cole ([36:41])
• “Plussing—the show is never complete.” —Jesse Cole on Walt Disney ([40:22])
• “If we have fun in rehearsal, it’s going in the script.” —Emily Cole ([25:16])
• “We are extremely impatient in going above and beyond for our fans, and patient in what we want for ourselves.” —Jesse Cole ([54:10])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Meet Cute & Founding Story: [02:05] – [03:46]
• The Anti-Business Model: [06:13] – [11:40]
• Burning the Boring / Banana Ball Rule Changes: [14:41] – [18:30]
• Failures & Iteration: [20:36] – [22:48]
• Formula for Fandom: [23:26]
• Doing the Opposite: [26:11] – [29:17]
• Social Media & Experimentation: [33:03]
• Metrics vs. Magic: [35:06]
• Creative Process: [38:26] – [40:22]
• On Being a Trend, Not a Fad: [43:15] – [44:32]
• Emotional, Deeper “Anti-Fad” Examples: [46:48] – [49:42]
• Focus & Rejecting “Bananas for All Sports” Expansion: [50:39] – [51:46]
• Big Takeaways from Jesse & Emily: [53:34] – [54:43]

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Final Takeaways from Jesse & Emily Cole

• Emily: “It’s just caring about people… Take away friction, walk in your fans’ shoes, put the fans first, and try to entertain them. That’s our North Star.” ([53:34])
• Jesse: “Be patient in what you want for yourself, impatient in how much you give to others… When you do what others won’t do, you’ll be able to do things you never imagined.” ([54:10])

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Rapid-Fire Section Highlights

• Best brand (besides Bananas): Disney ([55:40])
• Best stadium: Fenway Park ([56:18])
• Business book: The Ideal Team Player - Patrick Lencioni (Emily, [56:37]); Good to Great - Jim Collins (Jesse, [56:54])
• If you were a stock ticker symbol: FANS (Jesse, [57:03]); NANA (Emily, [57:04])
• Best restaurant in Savannah: Corleone’s; “Coach’s Corner, that’s where it started” ([57:11]–[57:23])

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In Short

The Savannah Bananas—and Jesse & Emily Cole—demonstrate what’s possible in business (and sport) when you put fans first, burn the boring, iterate relentlessly, and aren’t afraid to do the opposite of normal. Their story is a vibrant blueprint for building experience-driven brands that endure, surprise, and scale joy.

Transcript

[Jack]

Yetis slide into home base and then.

[Nick]

Slip into a yellow tuxedo.

[Jack]

Because today's interview is on the most fun franchise on earth, the Savannah Bananas.

[Nick]

But this ain't a typical business interview, besties. This is also couples counseling, because we.

[Jack]

Are here with Jesse Cole and Emily Cole, the husband and wife co founders of the Savannah Bananas.

[Nick]

Together, they have disrupted baseball from a four hour slog into a two hour viral hit.

[Jack]

While the Red Sox yawn in the dugout, the Bananas introduce dancing umpires.

[Nick]

It's the Harlem Club Globetrotters meets basketball meets basketball meets Broadway.

[Jack]

And it's Jesse and Emily's creation, the Cirque du Soleil of live sports.

[Nick]

These two didn't just sell out a stadium, they sold out every stadium, including, yeah, Yankee Stadium.

[Jack]

And they did it by changing the rules of baseball to eliminate every element of boring.

[Nick]

The boring from a struggling startup with so much debt they had to sell.

[Jack]

Their house to a $100 million new sport with a 1 million person wait list to get tickets.

[Nick]

The bananas have got 15 million followers on social media. Jack, can you sprinkle on some context, please?

[Jack]

That's more than the New York Yankees, the LA Dodgers and the Boston Red Sox combined.

[Nick]

And they did it with one dancing pitcher at a time and by replacing walks with a walk off fan who caught foul balls.

[Jack]

And the business is inspired by Walt Disney, P.T. barnum and Saturday Night Live.

[Nick]

Oh, and the Grateful Dead besties. Please welcome the shortstop of short skits, the princess of dancing pictures, and the.

[Jack]

King and queen of cartwheeling umpires.

[Nick]

Jesse and Emily Cole are the co founders of the Savannah Bananas.

[Jack]

And today's interview with this crazy couple is the best one yet.

[Nick]

If you don't break out into the Macarena midway through this podcast. Pause the pod, guys. Jesse, Emily, fantastic to have you with us. Thanks so much for coming on.

[Jesse Cole]

Well done, guys. Well done. Yes.

[Emily Cole]

We never had that.

[Jesse Cole]

That was very intense.

[Nick]

We've actually never had a couple on the podcast. A couple and co founders at the same time. So, like, the first thing we were wanting to know was we gotta hear the meet cute story on this. Right.

[Jack]

Jack, you started a company together 10 years, right. As you were getting married.

[Emily Cole]

Yeah.

[Jack]

Tell us how you met each other.

[Emily Cole]

Well, I was actually in the industry before we met, so a lot of people think that because Jesse is the banana industry guy. Yeah. That he brought me into it. But we both worked in the industry and I was working for Ripken Baseball at the time. Jesse was probably the youngest general manager ever. He was 23 and was just a sponge and trying to learn. So he hosted his own conference, which is unheard of for anybody, but for a 23 year old, really lofty. Right? And he invited a lot of the executives in the industry from around the country to his conference. And my boss from Ripken baseball went and heard him speak and walked outside and called me and said, I just met the guy that you're going to marry.

[Jesse Cole]

Wow.

[Emily Cole]

So I was 24 and not interested in getting married, you know, on the path to running teams and really building myself in my career. But I said, okay, I'll at least reach out to him. And he was doing things like hosting grandma beauty pageants and having flatulence fun night and great things that were very odd in the industry. But I was intrigued. And so I emailed him, as one does in 2009.

[Jack]

Yes.

[Emily Cole]

And we stayed in touch. We emailed and just connected professionally for a little while. And then in 2011, we actually had our meet. Cute, as you say. We both walked into the minor league baseball promo seminar in Myrtle beach and that's where we kind of locked eyes from across the hotel lobby at that opening cocktail hour and really have been talking and dreaming together ever since.

[Nick]

That is incredible. The fact that we could cover the start of a relationship, the start of a company, and farting themed baseball games all in one kickoff answer, that is. That says everything about what we're about to talk about in today's show.

[Jack]

But Nick and I actually have origins in the finance industry. And we jumped in T boy style to what we think are your financial statements.

[Nick]

Now a quick word from our sponsor.

[Jack]

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[Nick]

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[Jack]

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[Jack]

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[Nick]

You know, Yeti's in my family, we go around the table and we vent about which stock we all wish we'd bought last year.

[Jack]

Nick and my family, we play flag football. And the losing team has to wear a suit to dinner. Okay.

[Nick]

One more tradition we have over the holidays, Jack. A you thank therapy session. I do the week between Christmas and New Year's.

[Jack]

The holidays can be great or they can be stressful. Yeah, you're looking forward to next year. Again, that can be great. Or they can cause anxiety.

[Nick]

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[Jack]

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[Nick]

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[Jack]

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[Nick]

So if you start therapy this holiday, you can support the show by starting it with BetterHelp and using the code below.

[Jack]

This December, start a new tradition by taking care of you.

[Nick]

Our listeners get 10% [e-mail] tboy that's betterhelp.com tboy.

[Jack]

You said that you sold 2.2 million tickets last year at around 35 bucks a ticket and $25 of merch per fan. We calculated 130 million DOL dollars in revenue for the bananas last year. Can you share with us how much money you've made and whether the profitable and whether the business is profitable?

[Jesse Cole]

That's not something that we focused on. And to be very transparent, Emily and I, we don't even look at the bank accounts. We know we're very healthy. We know that number is inaccurate that you just shared. There's a lot of other parts to our business, but we also know that we invest very heavily. People don't realize how much we invest in every one of our people. We travel around the country, and the logistics are crazy. We have our own warehouse for merchandise. We do our own broadcast. We do our own ticketing. We built our own ticket system. We do our own entertainment. We do everything in house. And so obviously, we invest a lot, and we're very fortunate that our fans support us tremendously.

[Nick]

Well, that's totally fair, guys. You know, Jack and I, similarly with the show. Every day we focus on just making the best show yet. Every day, we don't focus on what the numbers are, and we find that one follows the other. But there is another financial question that you have shared publicly that we found fascinating, which is that 100% of the equity in your business is owned by the two people we're speaking to right now, you two as a couple, which is incredible. And, Jack, just to Share with the besties and yetis listening right now. Why is that shocking?

[Jack]

I mean, all of the startup world is glorifying venture capital and billion dollar fundraisers. How did you two resist taking outside money and keep everything? Remain the masters of your own destiny?

[Nick]

That takes a lot of discipline.

[Jesse Cole]

Or we just didn't know any better. We started as kids running baseball team teams and you know, we didn't know there was no like, blueprint for us. We just knew we didn't want to do it the same way as everyone else was doing. And so you mentioned earlier in the introduction, yeah, Walt Disney, you know, he started, studied, and Jeff Bezos and Amazon, and yes, they all had funding, but like, we were such a small little, you know, startup that like, we didn't even think about it. We just needed our fans to buy tickets. And so, yeah, we learned how to do it with nothing. When our first year, we only sold a handful of tickets. When we started, we had to, yes, sell our house, empty out our savings account. We were, you know, sleeping on air bed and struggling, but we learned how to make ends meet with very little, so we didn't need all this extra support. And so if we can figure out how to do it with very little, even as we grow, we're trying to do the same thing and that's what we've been able to do.

[Nick]

Yeah, Jesse, if I could interpret what you're saying here. You're basically saying like, yes, we resisted taking that outside venture capital money, but it meant we took all the risk on ourselves as a couple and as a household and literally had to sell our house.

[Jesse Cole]

Yeah, well, 100%. Well, think about this and what we've learned. You know, when Walt Disney, when he lost control, you know, he lost control over his first character, you know, Oswald, the lucky rabbit. He lost control of the distribution rights, he lost control, and soon he's like, I need to gain control back. You know, he only gave out control again when he was building, building Disneyland. That's huge. We, we will build Banana. But he gave away control to ABC and, and his publishing company. But then he bought it all back within five years. And what we've learned is whenever you have different shareholders, different investors, other people, we've had numerous people reach out to me. They want to return, they want to have control, they want to affect the experience. They would do so many things that aren't fans first for us, which is keeping no ticket fees, no convenient fees, no service fees, pay our fans taxes, no shipping fees, keeping our games free on YouTube. Not having sponsorship everywhere, all the things that we do, that's unconventional. A shareholder investor would want to do that. And so we have no interest in playing that game. We want to keep doing what's best for fans.

[Jack]

So, Jesse, we love that you and Emily plow every dollar you get back into the business in some sort of investments, as you were mentioning earlier. But it also seems like you're limiting the number of dollars coming into your business.

[Nick]

The way Jack and I put it was your business model as we studied the Savannah Bananas baseball phenomenon is an anti business model.

[Jack]

Now to slow down the rundown you just gave us.

[Nick]

Yeah, Jack, why don't you sprinkle on.

[Jack]

The context you have forbidden in park advertising at your stadium food and beverages with the $14 hot dogs and $11 beers. You include that kind of thing in the tickets. It's all inclusive pricing, TV deals you insist on being free to watch on YouTube. Out Ticketmaster eliminated the ticket fees and pay the sales tax for your customers. I've never heard of anything like that.

[Nick]

Add it all up, it appears you mainly make money in two ways, ticket sales and merch. So we're curious, like, how is it, why leave so much cash on the table?

[Emily Cole]

I mean, it's very simple. Our North Star is fans first. What takes care of fans. We focus on them, the long term fan over short term profits. And so when you look at it with that lens, it's very easy to leave that money on the table because that's not who we're serving. We're not serving the corporate sponsorships who want a big return on having a huge billboard. That's not who we're taking care of. We're taking care of the everyday fan, the family who's coming out to the ballpark. And so when you think about it like that, with that lens, it's actually a very simple decision, a very easy decision for us on what to say no to and what to focus all in on.

[Jesse Cole]

Guys, think about this. Five years ago, we served 100,000 fans. We were playing traditional baseball, okay? Then we left. Maneval disrupted ourselves. And that model was college. You couldn't pay the players. It was a very good, healthy business model. Let's go to professional now, spend millions of dollars investing in players and travel and everything.

[Jack]

It's free labor.

[Jesse Cole]

Yeah, but it was best for fans. So then we went from 100,000 to 500,000 to a million to 2.2 million to over 3.2 million this year. If we did all those other things and had all the extra Fees and all the things that aren't fans of hers. We couldn't serve that many fans because they wouldn't be interested in. And so when you're playing the game on how to create fans, everything else takes care of itself. Yeah, do we leave 20, 30, 40, $50 million on the table? 100%. But that's not. The business is still very healthy. We can take care of our people at a high level. And, you know, the business is growing.

[Nick]

By focusing on the customers. Essentially what you're saying is the return you get isn't necessarily in that dollar back that they spend. It's on the customer returning and referring and returning and referring and growing, growing and adding more customers and fans.

[Jesse Cole]

Give an example. There's 4.2 million people on our lottery list. So you mentioned a million earlier. There's actually, it's over 4 million. And so like during the holiday season right now. And, you know, we don't look at the dollars, we look at how we serve fans. We are doing thousands of orders every single day online, all over the country for merchandise, just merchandise. And so we have a hundred thousand square foot warehouse with numerous people serving fans all hours throughout the day. And so like that, because of that trust we built and that loyalty we built that our fans continue to come and support us.

[Jack]

I think about, like, consumer surplus. In other words, like, how much money did I spend and how do I compare that to how much fun I had?

[Nick]

There's a business school chart right now, Jack, that's crying as you're describing this.

[Jack]

I feel like people who leave a Savannah Bananas game have so much consumer surplus because they spent way less than they would have expected having gone to a crazy game and just received way more as a customer than they could have imagined. And that customer love, it'd be calculated as like NPS in the boardroom, but it really does pay dividends. In terms of Nick, like you said, when people leave a game, they say, oh, my God, you have no idea how much fun it was. You need to get on that wait list.

[Nick]

Jack, if I could put everything you said into like a math cultural equation here. And I almost put it as like, happiness equals reality minus expectations.

[Jack]

Right?

[Nick]

And that's what Jesse and Emily are able to deliver with the product.

[Jesse Cole]

Well, expectations keep rising. Everyone's expectations of experience and service keep rising.

[Nick]

That's true.

[Jesse Cole]

And that's the artist, really. Well, think about Taylor Swift. You know, on her ERAS tour, she goes, I'm going to do a set that's almost four hours long. That's crazy. I'm going to give people songs from every single error. But her thing is like these people are coming from all over the world to see me. I'm going to give them the best concert event I could ever give them. And back in the day, Michael Jackson used to think the exact same way and go over the top with his performances. And so what people don't realize is a show that starts at 7 o' clock for us. We actually start entertaining at 2 o'. Clock. We actually do a rope drop and we have our players greeting fans as they walk into the stadium signing autographs. And then we do a pre show from 3 to 4:30. Then we have a march and then we have pre entertainment from 4:30 up until 7. Like 72 different shows, promotions, music. Then we have our two hour game, then we have an hour post game plaza party. Then we sign autographs until the last fan leaves which goes to 11:30. We're not asking for extra money. We just want to give more to our fans and then hopefully they continue to give to us.

[Nick]

Okay, Jack, I feel like we're at a point where, you know, we're talking about this sport and we're talking about it in high level terms here, but maybe we should define what banana ball is and what we are speaking about here because we want to get to how you burn the boring, your strategy with a formula for fun and all of these things that our audience can take with them in their jobs, in their companies, in their lives. But to start, let's talk about burning the boring, your strategy for developing and inventing this new sport called banana ball.

[Jack]

You literally walked through the rules of baseball and the experience of baseball inning by inning, pitch by pitch, play by play, and found every element that a fan might find boring and said let's eliminate that from the game.

[Nick]

Cut the boring.

[Jack]

Ultimately you created a new sport.

[Nick]

You burned the boring.

[Jack]

We compared you to basketball earlier. What are the highlights of banana ball?

[Jesse Cole]

Literally what's crazy back six, seven years ago. So I do an idea book every single day or I down 10 ideas and the original ideas which we called the game Showball is in the hall of Fame right now. And a lot of the original baseball National Baseball hall of Fame in Cooperstown, which is really, really cool. But yeah, we looked at everything. So what are the parts of baseball stepping out of the box? I remember watching a game and Yasil Puig was stepping on it was taking 20 to 30 seconds. Immediately pitch. I'm like, this is ridiculous.

[Jack]

It is ridiculous.

[Jesse Cole]

The mound visits like Again, you watch and it's the way the pitching coach are coaching. Slow walk out today and everyone's just sitting there like, really? And we know it's a strategy. Try to get another pitcher warmed up and delay the game. But like there's not one fan in the world.

[Nick]

Like I can't.

[Jesse Cole]

I hope there's mountain visits tonight. I want to see at least two to three mountain visits. It's gonna be the best game of my life that doesn't happen. You know, you keep looking at walks like, I think the walk is a hilarious concept. This is an athletic sport called the walk. Okay? All you do is you kind of scroll and just nice, easy job.

[Jack]

Nothing really.

[Jesse Cole]

First base, okay? Eliminate that. The average baseball game a few years ago when you're looking was 3 hours and 12 minutes. Now they added the pitch clock and they've got a lot better, but it's like 3 hours and 12 minutes. What people don't know is a few years ago we actually took pictures and videotaped our crowd every 30 minutes from 5:30 all the way until the end of the game. We watched at 9 o' clock, an influx of fans started leave two hours into the game and then a 2, 9, 15 more. And then at 9:30 it was a big influx. And so like when we said a two hour time limit, mostly we're like, just go two and a half. Baseball's already three, two yesterday. I'm like, no, you want fans to want more.

[Jack]

The George Costanza rule. Yeah, leave them wanting more.

[Jesse Cole]

You know, think about this. You don't go to a great movie and you walk out in the middle and say, oh, that movie was great. I left in the middle like, oh, I love that concert. That comedian was so good. I left in the middle, but he was awesome. But yet in baseball games, people leave games early all the time. And so what do you got to do that you gotta make the game faster? You gotta eliminate the boring thing. And so yeah, all that. You know, you could steal first, fans can catch foul balls for outs. No bunting, because bunting sucks. Literally, if you bunt, you're thrown out of the game.

[Nick]

No, Jack and I think about this a lot with our show. You know, we're all competing in the attention economy and there are just distractions everywhere too. And so we often talk about like, like burning the boring. Whether it's in an interview episode or an episode we whip up on a daily basis, like, it's just not worth that waste.

[Jack]

Yetis. I'm the son of a New York Yankees fan who's very much a traditionalist. Like, he loves that the Yankees had their no facial hair policy, for example. I figure he would hate the bananas, you know? And so at first, I had a little reluctance to what you were doing because I thought it was disrupting tradition. But now that I've actually learned about the rules of banana ball, I'm like, this sounds like a frigging blast. Like you said, there's no walks Yeti's instead of a ball four. And a walk a ball four means the runner may start running not just to first base, but to second, third, and fourth base. And he can go as far as he wants until the defense throws the ball to all nine players on the field.

[Nick]

Joe Torre would spank you if you tried doing that.

[Jesse Cole]

Joe Torre's not being a piano ball. Joe Torre, he said, I realize you guys are making fun of the game, and you're making the game fun is what he said when he was.

[Nick]

That's a great way to put it. I'll rephrase that. Don Mattingly would spank you if you did that, Joe.

[Jesse Cole]

Yeah, Don Mattingly.

[Jack]

Another huge inning with baseball is blowouts, but banana ball is more like match play in golf, where each inning is a point that can be won, and so the game remains close, and then the final inning is like bonus ball. So even if you're down a few points in the final inning, you can still win the game if you score a few runs. It's just really impressive.

[Jesse Cole]

I gotta tell you about how the scoring rule came about. So, like, part of it was August 4, 2014, and we were running our team in Gastonia, North Carolina, the Grizzlies. And it's my night. I'm gonna propose to Emily. Like, I am ready to go.

[Jack]

No way.

[Jesse Cole]

Oh, I'm like, it is. It is the moment. Like, we. I had a surprise fireworks show plan, which, again, I had to get a permit, and she usually get the permits. I do all these things that, like, were usually hanged. We were the ones running the team. And so we got all of our friends there, which, like, none of our friends would come to a game because it was still college summer baseball. So we had all of our friends there, our family there. Everyone's ready to go, go. I'm set to propose in the sixth inning, and I'm ready to make this. Like, this is my moment. Then all of a sudden, our team. What's up? Nine runs in the first inning.

[Nick]

Oh, my God.

[Jesse Cole]

Literally, like, it was 30, 40 minute half inning. We're doing T shirt tosses and promotions brokens. While the innings going on, we're like, our fans are born. And I'm realizing my fans are already like, we're leaving. And I'm like, no, because it's special moment. And so two of our best friends who I they're like, no, what's happening? Like, we're not gonna wait for this. Like, this is ridiculous. And I'm like, well, that inning could have been over quickly. It could have been if you win the inning, you get a point. And so it's only worth one point and it keeps moving and like you can have walk offs. And so the concept of that, plus my dad who played golf came up with that is like, how do you make each inning matter? Make them out. There's never a blowout. So always it comes down to the last inning and now the last inning, everyone counts as a point. So even if the team's 3 to 1, you can still come back and win in the ninth inning. So that was put later in flight. So everything is tried to do to make the game more exciting as it goes on. And I was able to propose and she still said yes. So it happened. But that night was very, very tough in hell.

[Nick]

Congratulations. As Jack pointed out, I mean, these are fantastic iterations. They are fantastic disruptions burning the boring from the sport you're disrupting, essentially. But funny thing, Jesse, Jack and I have listened to every interview you've ever done. I think you've written three books and there's one quote we loved in particular. You said, there is no innovation without iteration. So in addition to all these incredibly successful disruptions and ideas you've had, what are some that you did that didn't work? What are some failures that you tried where you realized it was a problem and you had to end it?

[Emily Cole]

Well, yeah, failures all the time. I mean, I think that's one thing that people, people see, you know, they look at and they're like, oh, overnight success. Or they look at and they see the big shiny headlines now. But it's only because we've had hundreds and hundreds of failures that have led us to the things that do work. Some of my favorite ones, well, flashlight spun night I mentioned earlier, but that was a failure, I will say, because it was a very appropriate night.

[Jesse Cole]

Well, we know we'll be cushion giveaway. And we had a bean burrito contest just a couple hundred.

[Emily Cole]

He spins it and makes it positive. But we had the human pinata where we dressed somebody up in a pinata costume and we had little Kids hit them with plastic bats and they had to throw candy.

[Jesse Cole]

That was HR Disaster.

[Emily Cole]

Human pinata. We had the horsehead race where we put kids in horsehead costumes and they were supposed to like trot around the bases, but the horse heads were so big that they couldn't see. So they ended up at the outfield. We were like herding these children horses off the field. The lay of gate.

[Jack]

The crowd must have loved that.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Emily Cole]

Oh, yeah. So, you know, to the crowd, they're laughing at us, but to us, you know, we're looking at clocks and we're looking at HR disasters and we have these things that are going wrong. I would say one of the things that I have continued to say no to, that Jesse is adamant is going to happen, is he wants all of our players to skydive to their positions. And I'm, you know, I'm worried about.

[Jesse Cole]

A lot of things.

[Nick]

Yeah. A lot of insurance.

[Emily Cole]

There are failures. There are failures that I try to anticipate that we scale back and don't do. But. But for the most part, Jesse gets to push those things forward and we try.

[Jesse Cole]

Well, we've had, I mean, again, like trying to players to ride a bull in from the bullpen. So it'd be the bullpen. You got to have a live bowl and bullpen and the Right. But I, I want to jump on one, like a big event, tap in the morning beer festival. Because you can't drink all day if you don't start in the morning. And so we, we said, all right, whatever is normal. Do the exact opposite. And so a beer festival, you know, normally was at night. And we're like, we're going to have one starting at 9am months. And I think 27 people showed up. They had the time of their life. I mean, it was the best day they've ever had, but it did connect with people as much as I thought it would. So. But again, like, that's you, you, you learn by doing. Yeah. We do 10 to 15 new promotions every single night with each one of our teams, we have six times. So when you think about it, in a given weekend, we're doing 150 brand new things. This year with six teams. That is crazy.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Jesse Cole]

But I guarantee we are going to learn faster than any other sports organization. Most sports teams say, hey, we're going to do fireworks every Friday night. Here's a bobblehead giveaway. Here's our 90s night. Here's our 80s night. And I'm not taking away. I learned a lot from that. Industry when I started. But it's so easy to do the same things over and over again. It's so hard to do something that might fail. And we are willing to fail every single night by putting ourselves out there because we know we're going to learn faster to get better for our fans after that.

[Nick]

Well, Jesse and Emily, you know, when you add all this up, the failures and the successes. Jack and I like to think about business like chefs sometimes. Like, if there are recipes for success, would you say there is a formula for fun? There's a formula for fandom you can follow.

[Jesse Cole]

There's a formula for fandom, and I shared it in the book. I think fun is a little bit more complex, but for fandom, what we realize. And again, what did Steve Jobs say? You connect the dots looking backwards. It's hard to connect the dots moving forwards. And so we didn't know this when we started, but when we started looking back on how we were able to create fans, we realized the starting point of all innovation and creating fans is to eliminate the friction. And if you look at any company, you know, you look at what Netflix did to Blockbuster, what Uber did to the Cavs, any company that really creates fans in the beginning, they look at all the friction from the customer point of view, put themselves in their shoes and eliminate it. And so for us, the friction was baseball. Too long, too slow, too boring. You get nickel and dimes. You know, there's ads everywhere. And we eliminate all that. So that's where it started. So first step, eliminate friction. The second one, entertain always. You know, we look at mapping the perfect experience. So reverse engineer, what is a five star experience or Airbnb? Brian Chesky said, What would an 11 star experience be? Then you experiment constantly. The only way you can get better for your fans is if you're constantly trying new things and learning from doing. Engage deeply. Do for one what you wish you could do for many. And then finally, empower action. You empower your team to try things, to get out there, get out of their comfort zone, to let loose, to have fun and experiment. So if you put all those together and it's constant, you're doing it every single day. Like, I believe that's how you can create fans. Even if you do one of them, if one company just eliminates the friction of the process, like if the dmv, yeah. Said, all right, we're gonna, we're gonna make the waiting room not the worst waiting experience ever, they would probably get some fans. Yeah. So that's a starting point. I don't know for fun, Emma, if you've ever thought about that. But, you know, we think of things that, like, are fun for us. I think the greatest creators create things that they would love. And if. If you're trying to do something or get people to buy into something and you're not having fun, good luck. Fun is contagious.

[Emily Cole]

Yeah.

[Jesse Cole]

And then it starts with our players and ourselves trying to make the game the most fun. I think.

[Emily Cole]

Yeah. I would just say that a lot of that comes up in our rehearsals. So people don't know this, but we have an entire rehearsal day before each show, and that's exactly what happens, is our cast and our staff and our players, we jump in and we do these promotions or we act out the choreography, or we practice the trend that's going on. And if we have fun, if we're filming each other and having a good time doing it, it we're like, okay, this is going to resonate with people tomorrow night, so let's write that into the script. So it's just a lot of testing things out and trying things ourselves and not taking it ourselves too seriously.

[Jack]

There's a lot of actionable lessons from what both of you just said.

[Nick]

Yeah, Jack. I saw Jack scribbling furiously over there to whip up the takeaways, as we'd say. Jack, what do you got?

[Jack]

One, I just want to explore a little bit more. Is what's normal do the opposite. Have you seen great examples of companies doing that outside of the Savannah Bananas? Or is that just like a starting point for your brainstorm for new skits? Tell me a little bit more about what's normal and do the opposite.

[Emily Cole]

Yeah, well, obviously, like, some, even something as simple as Chick Fil A, you know, being closed on Sunday, like, that's true to who they are. And that's the exact opposite of what you would think you would want is more sales. So let's be open for another day. But they're so true to who they are and taking care of their people. That's kind of the opposite of what you should be doing, quote, unquote, as a business, as a fast food joint. But they're thriving. And so that's one example we look up to.

[Jesse Cole]

Yeah, we don't have games on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesdays, and we actually take time off in July in the middle of the busiest time in the baseball season. Like, that's completely unconventional. But when our people run first and make sure that they love what they do, you want to make sure that they always have Energy for our fans. But let me give the origin of whatever is normal do the exact opposite. I was 23 years old at the Beck Conference. So Bill Beck, one of the pioneer baseball owners, brilliant for what he did. Grandstand, managers, game. He gave 12 live officers to a fan in the middle of the game. He had, you know, fireworks going off the 40 miles, put names in the back of jerseys. Guy was brilliant. He was hated by all the other owners because he was doing things that were great right about baseball. His son was just as brilliant. His son was, again, a pioneer. Mike Veck owned St. Paul Saints, Charleston River Dogs, numerous teams. And when I was 23, I heard he was having a conference in Charleston, and we were in Gastonia, North Carolina. So I was like, heck, yeah, I'm going. And so I first get there, and the first thing he had was an idea box on everyone's table. And that was where I first came into the power of ideas. Because he said his dad said, there's ever a fire in the house, the number one thing you need to get is the idea box. Is nothing more valuable than the idea. I think Emily, as her mother, would question that. But a speaker come out, guys, and I think, you know, you think about, you're so impressionable. You. They hear like, you know, music that you love. It's like in your teenage years on your youth and, like, impressionable in the business industry. Like, from a professional standpoint, it's like 23 to 28. The people you learn from the people you see. And, like, that was so impressionable for me. So I was this new kid trying to learn everything. They had this speaker come in, and he starts running around throwing $2 bills. Like, literally just hundreds of $2 bills. I'm like, this guy's a lunatic. People are $2 bills. And it's like, like, oh, I mean, 8 bucks, like, whatever. But they're all excited. And so then he goes, what's so unique about a $2 bill? And he starts talking about, I always keep these in it. He always keeps them in his pocket. And he talks about it. And he goes, well, I want to tell you about the book that I wrote. It's called Innovation on Demand. And the concept is, whatever's normal do the exact opposite. He goes, how do you think I sold my book? And they said, well, everyone's like, Amazon at a bookstore. And he's like, no, that's the normal way of selling a book. What did I do? I bought an entire re retail store in Minneapolis, a couple thousand square feet, and I made my own bookstore just for one book. My own. And so he had his book Innovation on Demand on all different sections like business and self help History. He had a sign that shoplifting is encouraged. He just wanted people to have his book. Right. People magazine, NBC, Fox, cbs, everyone did a story on the one book bookstore. Yeah. And so what that concept is, if everyone's going this way, way, I'm gonna go this way. And so it was he. He has inspired us tremendously. And still a good friend to the day. But even my first book, find your yellow Tux, we did a world book tour. Yeah. At Epcot. And so we literally went to Epcot and did the world book. The world book tour.

[Emily Cole]

The world.

[Jesse Cole]

No one gets excited about normal. No one comes home and says, honey, I met the most normal person today. He was so normal. Like, we get excited about memorable or remarkable. And so whatever the normal things in your industry are. Right. What would be the exact opposite? And start creating that way. That's what creates attention. That's what gets people excited. And attention beats marketing 1000% of the time. Most companies, they have a marketing plan. Do you have an attention plan? And that's kind of what we're always thinking about. How are we creating attention? What new things are we doing that people have never seen before in a baseball field? And that gets fans excited.

[Nick]

No. It's incredible how much we've seen this, Jesse. And, like, it isn't embraced in a wide way, like Jack. I'm thinking we did a story in the summer about a luxury brand. I can't remember if it was like. Like Gucci, Prada, or someone who did not have a social media account. Like, every luxury band is all about posting on social media and showing photos. And they just said, yeah, we're not going to do this for three years.

[Jesse Cole]

But that's different. That's different. What if they just had a MySpace page? Or what if they just run AOR into Messenger, or they're doing just newspaper ads or whatever. Like, that's actually today could be interesting.

[Nick]

No, you're absolutely right. And it's amazing how powerful that is, but how little you actually see it. Now, a quick word from our sponsor.

[Jack]

For the holidays, I'm hosting people every single weekend, and I don't know any of them.

[Nick]

What is wrong with you, Nick?

[Jack]

They're actually paid customers. I'm hosting them at my chalet using Airbnb. I actually have two bookings lined up while I'm away, bringing in really good money for the holidays.

[Nick]

Oh, okay. I Got it. Yeti. Jack's been an Airbnb host for the last couple years. He's got a better rating than Santa.

[Jack]

I'll be at home for Christmas under the Christmas tree. But the day, day after, I'm heading south to visit the family. And while I'm gone, I'm hosting guests on Airbnb.

[Nick]

And with the revenue generated on Airbnb, Jack, you're probably booking massages for you and Alex.

[Jack]

It's an entire little side business. I have an income statement, Nick. It offsets my cost of travel and ensures I'm getting the most of the assets I own.

[Nick]

It's a write off.

[Jack]

All of my guests have been super respectful. Not only do I have a 5 star rating, I have given my guests 5 stars too.

[Nick]

So, besties, treat yourself with the trip and treat someone else with a stay.

[Jack]

Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host audible yetis.

[Nick]

I just listened to a wild audiobook on my flight back to New York. Here's what it's called. Gods of New York.

[Jack]

It's about four men. The four men who ruled New York City the year that you were born, Nick.

[Nick]

I gotta give my parents credit, Jack. New York in 1988 was insane. It was like mob bosses, gang fights, and all these subway cars covered in graffiti. So, like, seeing how the city was run when my mom was, like, pregnant with me, I'm blown away by this whole new imagination.

[Jack]

Now I listen to Audible all the time. Whenever I need a break from news podcasts, I escape to an audiobook and simply push play wherever I left off.

[Nick]

Because Audible has an incredible selection of over a million audiobooks, podcasts, and audio originals all in one easy app.

[Jack]

Explore bestsellers, new releases, or find a wild story that takes you back to the year that your mom gave birth to you.

[Nick]

Yeah, last night while I was doing the dishes, Jack, I listened to a story about the abysmal late 1980s New York Yankees.

[Jack]

Yeah, I feel bad for your dad. At least the Giants were winning back then.

[Nick]

Besties. There is more to imagine when you listen.

[Jack]

Sign up for a free 30 day audible trial. And your first audiobook is free, so visit audible.com tboy. You know, you just mentioned attention. We're all competing in the attention economy. To two masters of keeping and attracting attention. What's your secret to social media success?

[Nick]

And Jack and I are saying that as two guys who have a podcast with a big daily audience, but we're still trying to figure that out on social Media. Like, how do we convert our podcast content to work on social? That is a really hard thing to jump between different types of content platforms.

[Jesse Cole]

How often are you guys testing?

[Jack]

Not enough.

[Nick]

Not enough.

[Jesse Cole]

How often do you guys, like, post, or is it always the similar type of content?

[Nick]

Probably one to two videos a day of a story we did and maybe a test video.

[Jesse Cole]

Well, you guys are dynamic and you're charismatic and you obviously have good guests. Just kidding. So my point is like that, that can always work. But then what are the things that you're trying and again, being okay with? Fit failure. So if you get more reps in, you know, I always look at the example. Who had the most hits in Major League Baseball. It was Pete Rose. You know, over 4, 000 hits. He also had over 14, 000 advance. He had 2, 000 more bats than anyone else that ever played the game. When I'd say that is maybe there's not enough of that. So you're not. Or you're coming up at the same time and doing the same exact thing every single time.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Jesse Cole]

And so, you know, we're. We're obsessed with testing new things every day. We're putting out new social media and we're testing, you know, we say, all right, what are we doing from the dugout today? What are we gonna do from the bullpen? What are we gonna do from the crow video board and film that today and test that today? You know, all those things we're constantly testing and a lot don't work. But if you find one good one, then you have your whole new arsenal of things you can do that you haven't done before.

[Nick]

We have a low tolerance for failure. We probably don't do enough that's experimental in a broader basis for worries about reputational risks that you're saying are probably not a big deal.

[Jesse Cole]

Guys, again, the same example. The player that failed more than any in major league history, more than anyone else, he struck out more than anyone else. And no one knows his name name because of the strikeouts. They know his name because of his three home runs in Game 6 in the 1977 World Series as Mr. October. He's a Hall of Famer. It's Reggie Jackson. He's not remembered for his strikeouts. He's remembered for his hits. Especially in social media. It disappears. We won't remember it. So my, my thought process, like, yeah, we're going to have videos that get no views, but then what's going next at that the next day.

[Nick]

No, that. You're absolutely right. Jesse, you know, when it comes to like actually making the decision so on building this product, you know, you guys have invented a sport and you're, and you're testing all these things all the time. You know, how much of it is metrics versus magic, graphs versus guts? How much of it is making decisions on information versus your intuition?

[Emily Cole]

I would say a lot of it is intuition, honestly. We are not a company powered by numbers and charts. Of course, to have some sort of responsibility. We do use it a little bit. But like Jesse said earlier, we be, we personally don't log into bank accounts. Like, we don't look at certain reports every night. What we're looking at is how many fans did we serve. That the things that do matter to us. A lot of it is the heart and the intention. That is how we make a lot of decisions. When we, when something goes, goes wrong, we are very quick to jump in and create a solution, even if it ends up spending millions of dollars. Like, we don't look at what that number is going to be. We go in and make the decision first of, hey, let's make this right or let's adjust this and then later we get the report. But I would say a lot of it is just from heart. And I think that also that is one of our superpowers in that we don't have outside investors and we don't have a board and we don't have people that we have to show fancy reports to. It's us and it's our leadership team and we're the ones making decisions. And because we're leading with heart, that's how we get to make the decisions. We don't have the responsibility of certain, certain metrics that we have to hit.

[Jesse Cole]

So, so give you an example, guys. Would it be cool to do like. So like we think about this. Would it be cool to do a cruise ship in Banana land at city and just invite all our fans on a cruise ship and try to entertain them for four to five days without playing our game?

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Jesse Cole]

Wouldn't that be cool? It'd be fun. And so we did it and it sold out. And we're doing it again. Sold out. And it's like, wouldn't it be cool to play a game at a football stadium with a hundred thousand fans? Yeah, let's try it.

[Nick]

Let's go do it.

[Jesse Cole]

It. Wouldn't it be cool to play a game on a beach? Wouldn't it be cool to do all these things like an aircraft carrier? Wouldn't it be cool? And so this what if philosophy. What if we did this? And if we think that would be cool and that'd be fun, we just try it. We don't know how to do it. You don't know how to do a cruise ship. No one teaches you that. You don't know how to be at a football stadium. No one teaches you that. You learn by doing. And so I think a good mindset is. Is. Would that be fun? Do you get excited about it? If you get excited about something and you're passionate about it, same thing with our team. If they have an idea for social media, and we may know it's probably not going to work, but if they're so tired up about it and they're energized by it and they're going to choreograph and block every step of it, we let them do it because they're going to learn more about it. You want people showing up with passion and energy and fire, and that's how creativity comes. And so that's kind of what we. We preach. And it starts from the top.

[Nick]

Well, well, Jesse, let's get into this creative process because, you know, Jack and I have a creative process every day like we go through. We've been inspired in the past by. We actually, Jack and I were former freshman year roommates. That's how we met. You know, that's our meet. Cute. We walked into the same dorm room with. He had season two of Seinfeld DVDs, and I had season three, and it just kind of was a match made in heaven. But, you know, our creative inspirations growing up were Seinfeld, the Daily show with Jon Stewart, South Park. And it's all kind of informed the elements that we bring entertainment into business news. But with you two, Jack and I were keeping a whiteboard list of all your inspirations. And Jack, what do we have up there? We had, like, Disney, P.T. barnum. Who else?

[Jack]

I mean, just in this interview, you guys have mentioned Steve Jobs, Brian Chesky, you've mentioned the Harlem Globetrotters, the Grateful Dead, Cirque du Soleil, Dave Matthews.

[Nick]

So we're kind of just curious about your creative process. Like, do you set up time to read every week to absorb all this information? Do you get into a writer's room? Do you do a focus group?

[Jesse Cole]

There's books everywhere.

[Nick]

But is reading the key to your business success?

[Jesse Cole]

Your input affects your output. Output. You know, constantly. Every morning I start with reading and writing and ideas. That's part of my system and for creativity. And it's really important to not to create before you consume so often the night before. I'll write down what is my idea bucket? What's my theme that I want to work on? And then so I have that in my mind when I wake up, I can already start thinking creatively as opposed to just scrolling through social, going through previous emails. And then you become other people's priorities is what you're focused on, not your own priorities of creativity. Creating the best days. Emily knows when I come down from my office early before the kids are up and I'm like, like I had some great ideas. I, I just, I'm gonna win the day.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Jesse Cole]

And if I feel like I'm just trying to fix all these things, it's tough. So I think you gotta win the morning, win the day is how old Rod says from the miracle morning. But yeah, creativity is, it's tough to teach. You need to find, you know, what works for you. But yeah, I mean, Saturday Night Live, Grateful Dead, wwe, they're constantly thinking what are the new things they're doing every single day a week. I think that's, that's big for us.

[Emily Cole]

Well, and you can go into the cadence of the actual week and the idea sess. But I do think that one thing that's worth mentioning is that people think that it's all his ideas or it's all the creative department ideas. But one thing that we've really focused on is enabling everybody in the company to come to the table with ideas. And so it's not just the creative department that's coming up with the ideas every day. There are hundreds and hundreds of people on staff and they're all doing this, all the players, they're coming up with ideas for their own walk ups and their own celebrations. And so when you have 150 people who are playing on the field every night, but they're also coming up with the ideas that helps this train keep going with new ideas every night. And when he says we're testing 10 to 15 things at every game, it's only possible because you have hundreds of people offering up ideas.

[Jesse Cole]

Yeah. Our final dance first principle is we will always plus the experience.

[Nick]

You mentioned that a couple years ago plussing from Walt Disney had a huge impact on you. It's basically a tactic as part of a formula for fun. Can you guys share more?

[Jesse Cole]

Walt Disney said Disneyland is a living, breathing thing. We will always plus the show and it'll never be complete. And so that mindset, which is interesting, a lot of people think like the movies are Complete. And they think a regular theme park's complete. You already built it. No, he saw it was constantly living. It was growing. What can we enhance? He's in a movie. He got tired of the movie business because he's like, I can't do anything anymore. I. It's done. The movie's done. Like, I can do a sequel, which are boring. He said, you can't talk pigs with pigs. He learned that from Three Little Pegs, because every other movie after that wasn't that good. So I've done a lot of research on Walt Disney, but you always plus the experience. And so one great, great story, great example was this during Christmas time, time that he really wanted to have a. A big Christmas parade. And it was going to cost $350,000. And everyone, everyone was like, no, we had our highest capacity right now. That makes no sense. They're already here. And he goes, no, we need to always give them a reason to come back. That's why we should invest the money and invest the dollars. And he was obsessed with that. Plusing the show.

[Nick]

Yeah, that's a plusing.

[Jack]

Okay, to borrow your what if framework, wouldn't it be cool if there were 32 teams? Team number two, the party animals, has more followers than any Major League Baseball team.

[Nick]

True.

[Jack]

Playing hundreds of games. You got the Texas Tailgaters. Is your goal to be bigger than Major League Baseball?

[Jesse Cole]

No. Zero interest. No, zero interest for us. I mean, this respect. That's just the wrong question. We don't think about that. And we constantly think, how can we create fans? And we're competing against ourselves every single night, every day. How can we get better for our fans? How can we create a better experience and a better show? And we got a long way to go still in the first inning. Because we're doing things that are extremely hard. We have no idea we're playing in 45 states this year. Yeah, we're playing from Billings, Montana, to North Dakota to the Superdome to, you know, 100,000 seat stadiums in Tennessee and Texas. I mean, it is extremely hard. We haven't even gone international yet. And we're getting all these opportunities. Like we got to focus on one fan at a time and creating fans. And we're not competing against mlb. I hope that we're both working together to create fans of the game. Even though our games a lot of different. I applaud them because they have made a lot of adjustments over the years to make the game better. And I think we're both hopefully winning together to create fans well, guys, speaking.

[Nick]

About this league that you've launched and how you're expanding the Savannah Bananas into its own league, Jack and I have noticed this trend the last few years we've covered on our show of disruptive new sports. You've got professional pickleball, you've got professional bull riding, you've got major league lacrosse and then you've got professional lacrosse, which has a touring model.

[Jack]

You got the XFL trying to make a comeback. You have the X Games now considering like a touring model instead of just once a year In Aspen.

[Nick]

As you can tell, we found a lot of examples of this disruption of professional sports you wouldn't have dreamed of when we were kids. So one thing Jack and I get curious about is like how you determine a fad from a trend. Like how do we know this is part of a long term trend? What are the signals you guys look for to ensure that what you're doing is a long term trend?

[Emily Cole]

Well, I would just say that we continue to get our answers from our fans. They're continuing to show interest. Our interest list is growing every year. Again, that's who we're answering to, to. And so we are trying to keep the game fun and exciting and give them different things, but that's the, the lead indicator for us is if there are more people interested in coming or at least watching the event. I will say it's not only live. Live is a totally different experience, but there are so many people who are tuning in and watching through the broadcast now. But all of those numbers are proving to us that this is something people want to watch. And when they, they watch from the east coast game and then they, they switch over and they start watching the west coast game, I mean, those are things that are proving to us that this is something that people are invested in and they are becoming fans of multiple teams in the league. Which is interesting because in normal sports you are a die hard Eagles fan or you are a die hard Cowboys fan because your grandfather was. And for us, we're seeing that people are fans of the party animals and the Texas Tailgaters because they grew up in Texas, but now they have a party animal vibe. Right? And so it's fun for us to see, see that people are investing in it in multiple ways. They're buying merchandise from multiple teams, they're going to see us in multiple cities, they're watching the broadcast in different time zones. Those are the indicators to us that show that we're at least on the right path. Not that we haven't figured out, but that we have a product that people are willing to watch.

[Jesse Cole]

The people that think we're a fan, they don't know the DNA of our organization.

[Nick]

Right.

[Jesse Cole]

And they don't know how obsessed we are with the show and obsessed with our fans. And so every day we're thinking about how do we make our show better. We know that's a differentiated folks. For us, it's the greatest show in sports. What we're trying to create and that is that experience that there's always something happening and if you blink, you may miss something. And that whether you're in the upper deck, you're going to get greeted by our cast or our players or if you're right behind home plate, we're going to try to create that one on one experience. And it's hard. 50,000 fans, 100,000 fans, it is extremely hard. We're not there yet, but it's that obsessive focus and that's the greatest creators. I mean, I've got a chance to connect a good amount now with Jimmy or Ms. Mr. Beast. And he's upset with YouTube more than anyone else in the world. And there's a reason why he has the most followers than anyone in the world because he looks at every single second, every single detail on how to make it better for his viewers. That's how we look at our shows. And I think Ben anyway thinks we're going to be a fad and there's thousands out there. I save a lot of the comments. They're 15 minutes are up. It's a fad. I save all. They are inspiring me because everyone thinks we're going to be gone and in 20, 30, 40 years, I can't wait till they see what this is be going to.

[Nick]

Well, Jesse and Emily, you know, we asked you that question because we were curious about your response. But the reason, one of the reasons Jack and I wanted to bring you on the show is because we think you're a long term trend, not a fad. And it's funny, we've been speaking actually a lot about fun and the brighter, like positive elements of what you've created and this sport you've invented and brought to the world that also is commercially successful, but a signal that we've seen that you guys are here to stay long term isn't on the fun side. It's actually on kind of the opposite end of the spectrum on like the meaningful side. You know, you guys do things that don't suck. And there's this great example you gave A couple years ago, Jesse, that early on, when you guys were also just still very new, you know, you found out a fan was coming and one of their parents had passed away, and I think they had like six siblings or seven siblings. And you asked an intern, I think at the time, you gave them this huge responsibility and said, how do you make this the best day of their lives? And I don't know anyone else in a major sport or in one of these other fatty sports that. That would have made that type of bet, that risk, that investment to do so. And you guys delivered on that. Can you share a little bit more of that story? Because to us, that's a signal that you guys have done something that's deeper than just fun or a fad.

[Jesse Cole]

That first year was special for many reasons. And I think that's really where we found out who we are. You know, yes, we had fun. Yes, we had the banana nanas dancing, and we had the banana baby, and we had all the fun. But it was those moments that really stood out. And it's the stories that make a brand and make a company. And so, yeah, that was a. We found out that a father had seven kids, and their mother had just tragically passed away. And the mother bought the tickets for the family to come to the game. And thank you calls. Yeah, so we make thank you calls every. We actually were doing them today. We call our fans to thank them for buying tickets and merchandise. So Barry, one of our interns at the time, was calling and thanking them, and he called them and, you know, the dad will answer the phone. He said, you know, I'm sorry, this is what happened. We're not going to be able to come. And so Barry was like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry, and came to me right afterwards, said, this happened. And I go, well, what if we were able to get them to come? What. What could we do? Could we make it special? And he called him back and said, you know, we'd love to take care of you guys, make it a special night for us. And he said, you know what? Probably good if you have kids out of the house. And so he immediately hit a cell phone, greeted them there, got them seats right behind home plate, had jersey set up for them, had players greeting them, meeting them, and. And the whole night was focused on that family. And at the end, dad left and said, that was the last gift. That was the last gift that she bought the kids. And I couldn't imagine a better gift for our kids. And so when you think about that, that moment, that power. And Barry, he has risen up with us. He's been here 10 years from vice president now leading all of our recruiting for all of Banana. He is responsible for bringing in these people, these players that create those moments every single night at our ballpark. And to see him and what he's done and just another story. And we have so many examples of that. So that inspires us. But yeah, it's, it's do for one what you wish you could do for many and they already obviously lived up to it.

[Nick]

That's meaningful to hear the details of guys. It also speaks to this bigger thing of investing and doing the things that don't scale and that's the kind of thing you do when you've built a real connection with people and those are the real connections that make this a long term thing. So that's really cool to hear. Thanks for sharing that.

[Jesse Cole]

You know, it's crazy. So many of the stories involve those sad moments, but there's so many. I think people need that.

[Jack]

Yeah, I mean my heart is a.

[Nick]

Little bit bigger, Jack. It reminds me of we did a whole deep dive guys on the business of Sesame street and the origin stories of Sesame street. And similarly I think that actually became, became one of our most listened to shows ever. And I think it's because it had that tension. I mean Jack and I always say great brands have tension, right? They're able to balance things that are opposing and opposites inside. Like we like to be pop culture but also business news. And for you guys it's creating these incredible funs and laughs even in someone's darkest moment. I mean that is the ultimate tension.

[Jesse Cole]

That's what a brand is and the world needs it. You know, I think there's a lot of conversations now on the anti AI BET and the antisocial bet and that people are going to want to be together and, and bringing people together to have moments and experiences. Like we're all in on that and obviously that's what we're investing in because people need it. There's a feeling that you get when you're together and you know, during our games where everyone, the lights go off and everyone's holding their light up and their flashlight and singing Yellow Together. It sounds like Kumaya but 50,000 people lights up singing Yellow together is a moment there. There's nowhere else in the world that's happening. And it's a, it's a core moment. And so we, we look to try to create those.

[Nick]

Well, other investors must be Seeing this and thinking, okay, okay, there are opportunities here elsewhere. I mean, Jack and I get questions all the time about jumping verticals. Could you do a sports version, a fashion version? I mean, do you guys get vertical pressure like Savannah Bananas for hockey? Savannah bananas on the football field? Like, are those questions you guys get and it's something you'd ever consider daily?

[Jack]

Do you consider it daily or they come to you daily?

[Jesse Cole]

Daily, Zero consideration.

[Emily Cole]

No, I think that that is, is again, one of our superpowers is that we've been able to just stay very simple in our focus. It is the fans in our area, in our domain. Like, that is who we're going after. We are not trying to disrupt other sports or, you know, do these other wild things right now. We're not trying to go to the moon quite yet. That's a joke. In our company.

[Jesse Cole]

Everyone's going to be, we're going to go to the moon.

[Emily Cole]

But we're just, we're very focused on what we have in front of us. Jesse always says that we are just in the first inning and I do believe that, but we are very focused on, on where we are.

[Jesse Cole]

Have you guys studied Todd Graves at all for the raising canes?

[Jack]

We've covered his story on the pod a few times.

[Jesse Cole]

Yeah, yeah, it's. I mean, again, chicken mares. We're going to do the best chicken finger in the world. Everyone's like, no, you can't get no more than chicken fingers. You're going to do it. He's like, no, do one thing, do it better than anyone else. And they are dominating them in Chick Fil A. And so I think that there's such a great lesson there where people try to spread out and do too many things. You know, the way to fail at something is to do do it half assed. And that's what a lot of people end up doing when they spread it out.

[Nick]

Be a steak knife, not a Swiss army knife. Well, I guess on that note, Jack, do you want to. Do you want to pitch Jesse and Emily right now?

[Jack]

Well, we love your fan first mentality. And we gotta ask, is there an IPO in the future where you can give fans partial ownership of the organization?

[Jesse Cole]

So there's an interesting mindset because you led us with the fans. Yes.

[Nick]

Yeah, you kind of have to say yes.

[Jack]

It feels like it was a trap.

[Emily Cole]

I'm going to say we studied the Green Bay model a little bit.

[Jack]

You go, cool.

[Emily Cole]

Sting a little bit. You know that fans come in. But I don't think we have that all figured out yet. So it's not something that we're focusing on.

[Jack]

No.

[Jesse Cole]

From day one, we let fans help come up with suggestions for the name. We let suggestions for our mascot. We let them literally draft our first three players and fan franchise our players for upcoming draft. Our fans are heavily, heavily involved. But I think, you know, there's the tough things, the decisions you have to make that fans don't know. They don't know things in the future. For instance, when we left Coastal Plain League, traditional baseball went to banana ball, we had so many fans saying, this is a terrible decision. We're no longer in a sport. We saw where the game of baseball was going and we saw where banana ball could be. We just did a draft which was very unique with all six of our teams. We had a lot of fans that didn't love it, but we see where this is going. And so when you, if you involve fans at a high level from ownership too much, you might have lose the opportunity of seeing a vision that you have relentlessly been studying and your team has for years, years where they at this point happen. So we'll continue to evolve them, but I don't think an IPO or getting involved in that point is something that we're thinking about right now.

[Nick]

All right, well, so it sounds like we'll wait a few years before the next interview on the New York Stock Exchange. All right, Jack, should we whip up some takeaways?

[Jack]

Well, normally Nick and I whip up the takeaway of the story, but we're going to give you the honor. So, Emily and Jesse, what is the takeaway on the Savannah Bananas?

[Emily Cole]

I would say for me, it's just caring about people. I mean, at the end of the day, that's what we try to teach all of our people. And people come to us and they say, you know, what's the secret sauce? And how are you pulling this off? But it really is that simple. We just take away the friction for our fans and we walk in our fans shoes and that's how we make the decision. That's our North Star. We put the fans first and we try to entertain them. And so that's my takeaway is just continuing to care for them in any capacity, with any departments or countries or whatever we grow to. You know, that will still be our North Star. And I think that hopefully that will be our. Our shining art star for a long time.

[Jesse Cole]

You know what I just thought about? I thought about our first Fans First Playbook and so we developed Fans first playbooks and kind of who we are, what we stand for. And in the back of the first cover said, be patient in what you want for yourself, but be impatient in how much you give to others. And I think that's just a mindset. We are extremely impatient on going above and beyond for our fans and doing things that other people won't. And when you do what others won't do, you'll be able to do things you never imagined. And we're getting to do that. Walt Disney said, it's kind of fun to do the impossible. And we get to do the impossible every day because of our relentless focus on our fans.

[Nick]

I don't know how you guys were able to whip up this skill set, but, you know, we've interviewed a lot of people on the show. No one, I think speaks like you two, where everything you say could be bottled down. It's like a takeaway or a quote or, you know, it should be in Bartlett's book of Quotations. It's incredible how you're able to distill these complicated concepts, steps emotional and business wise, in a way that's just super repeatable.

[Jesse Cole]

It's really cool. You shouldn't see how bad we were when we started.

[Nick]

We listened to your podcast during the Pandemic, Jesse, like your old podcast, it's.

[Jesse Cole]

About getting out of reps. And I'm telling you, like, and you listen to every one of my interviews. I laugh because I did over a thousand.

[Nick]

You've done a lot.

[Jesse Cole]

If you go back into 2017, 2018, 2019, go. But my point is, it's like, that's the reason you get your reps and get your reps and get your reps and get your reps in and do.

[Nick]

Things that don't scale 100%. Jack, should we kick off some rapid fire questions to wrap things up?

[Jack]

Rapid fire question for Jesse and Emily from Savannah Bananas. What is the best brand out there? That's not the Savannah Bananas.

[Emily Cole]

Okay, I'll just say Disney, what is.

[Jack]

Your dream collab or partnership? Can't be Disney.

[Jesse Cole]

We've already done that. They did Savannah Bananas day at Disney. That was fun.

[Emily Cole]

Okay, this is not going to be what you expect, but I'm going to say something within the foster care space. So it's not a company, and I don't even know if it would be nationally, like the Department of Social Services, but we are foster parents ourselves and we have a nonprofit called Bananas Foster. And so the ultimate collab for me and what I think would get the most impact would be a collaboration with A large organization like that, what's the.

[Nick]

Best stadium you've ever performed in?

[Jesse Cole]

For me, I'm going to go with Fenway because that's where I grew up and I get on a show because.

[Nick]

You'Re from just outside Boston.

[Jesse Cole]

But the real answer is probably one of the next ones. We haven't performed there. It's going. Doing something at a stadium, or not even you would imagine is a stadium stadium, and putting on a show there, that's going to be pretty special.

[Nick]

What's the best business book you've ever read?

[Emily Cole]

I am really all in on our hiring right now, so I'm just gonna say the Ideal Team Player by Pat Lincioni. It's not really a business book, but it's a business book for me in that I'm trying to bring in the best people. And that has helped guide me on who we're bringing in.

[Jesse Cole]

I'm gonna go a classic Delta last Jim Collins.

[Jack]

And finally, finally, Jesse and Emily, if each of you were stocks, what would be your three or four letter stock ticker symbol?

[Jesse Cole]

Fans.

[Jack]

Emily, he beat you to it. You're in trouble. You could go Nana.

[Nick]

Oh, and one more. What's the best restaurant in Savannah, Georgia?

[Emily Cole]

Corleone's.

[Jesse Cole]

No. Yeah, I mean, Corleone's.

[Emily Cole]

We love that. We love Italian.

[Jesse Cole]

Oh, that's so tough. All right, sorry, guys. That, that, that's, that's a really important question. That's where it started. Coach's Corner. Where it started.

[Emily Cole]

It was a sports bar out there.

[Jesse Cole]

Sports bar. That was where it all started. Where all the ideas were. Yes, that's where where it started.

[Nick]

Well, given your proposal day when the team lost by like nine runs, maybe that's the place for where you guys renew your vows in a couple years.

[Emily Cole]

Yeah, that's definitely it. That is forest fire.

[Jack]

Jesse and Emily, we're huge fans. I'm gonna send this episode to my dad and I think I can win him over to become a banana fan.

[Jesse Cole]

Love it.

[Jack]

You've both been truly inspirational to us as entrepreneurs. Like, we are literally gonna listen to this episode and write down on the whiteboard some of your best takeaways. So thanks for sharing all of your best secrets and for creating an amazing game and for evolving the game of baseball, a hundred year old game that Ken Burns did a documentary on. I think you're making it a really, really fun and interesting new thing that.

[Nick]

I'm excited about and in the spirit of doing things differently, you know, like you said, Jesse, you've done a thousand of these interviews. Emily, you've done thousands of these interviews. We'd like to do something. You haven't done an interview yet, which is smash our cha Ching button virtually. So if you could just wind up like you're taking a big bat at the plate and then swing, you're ready at the same time.

[Jesse Cole]

Here we go. Here we go.

[Nick]

Ready? All right, here comes the pitch. 3, 2, 1. All right, there we go.

[Jesse Cole]

You had to do a money sign, too? Like, fans and happiness are joy. We're smashing money because we don't care about it. All right, I actually just.

[Jack]

I told Nick one of you was gonna be a lefty, but it's okay.

[Emily Cole]

No, you have a daughter who's a lefty. Yeah, not us.

[Nick]

Well, guys, thank you so much for coming on. We can't wait to see you at the next one.

[Jesse Cole]

All right, Appreciate you, guys.

[Emily Cole]

Thank you, guys.

[Jesse Cole]

Take care.

[Jack]

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[Nick]

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[Jack]

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[Nick]

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