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- [00:01]
A
Yetis, stretch out those glutes and double knot your shoelaces.
- [00:05]
B
Because today we're doing things on the pod with a legend of athleisure, Ty Haney.
- [00:10]
A
She turned recreation into a revolution by founding outdoor voices in 2013 at the age of 23.
- [00:16]
B
She turned community into the startup buzzword of the decade.
- [00:19]
A
Her Outdoor Voices logo, it didn't just end up on yoga mats, did it, Jack?
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B
It's on brunch tables. It's inside office buildings. It's in every hiking trail where dogs are allowed.
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A
She built a brand that made Nike look ner and Lulu look lame.
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B
Peak Outdoor Voices 2018, under Tai's leadership, OV hit a $100 million valuation, fast and furious.
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A
Eventually, OV's investors and take down he hit pieces, forced her to resign.
- [00:46]
B
But we're talking with Ty today because she has returned to her brand and the new Outdoor Voices.
- [00:52]
A
We'll sort through some dirty laundry with her and discuss the new laundry OV has for sale.
- [00:57]
B
And today, she's actually running three different companies in three different industries at the.
- [01:03]
A
Same energy drink, software, and fashion. Tai's LinkedIn is longer than a marathon.
- [01:09]
B
Ty doesn't do sweat equity. She does endorphin equity.
- [01:12]
A
So, besties, please welcome the Anna Wintour of Athleisure, the queen of cool downs, the duchess of doing things.
- [01:19]
B
Ty Haney is the founder of Outdoor.
- [01:22]
A
Voices, and today's interview with Ty is the best one yet.
- [01:27]
B
Ty, welcome to the pod.
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A
Welcome to T boy.
- [01:30]
C
Well, what an intro. Razzle dazzle. I'm into it.
- [01:33]
B
That's our favorite term, by the way.
- [01:35]
A
Yeah, we actually do love that term. That is perfect.
- [01:37]
B
So, Ty, 10 years ago, we actually had a business deal with Outdoor Voices, although you probably weren't aware of it.
- [01:44]
A
Yeah. Yeah, Jack, we should let Ty know. Full disclosure, we did a business deal that your company didn't know about with your company.
- [01:51]
B
Okay. So, Ty, we were looking for our first advertisers, and getting your first one is the hardest one. This is back when we were just a newsletter. We hadn't launched a pod yet.
- [01:59]
A
This is the pre pod era.
- [02:00]
B
Outdoor Voices was so cool. We just thought it would be unbelievable if we got your logo into our newsletter. So we pretty much let your brand advertise for free. We just asked for a couple of gift cards in return.
- [02:12]
A
We kind of got the brand equity of OV without signing a deal with ov, and everyone loved it, so it worked out great.
- [02:18]
C
That's awesome. I love it.
- [02:19]
B
Peer companies were like, ov, we should Be talking to you about advertising in your newsletter.
- [02:24]
C
I love that.
- [02:25]
A
Also, Ty, you know, to kind of kick things off. We should apologize because as we were researching you ahead of the podcast, we have mentioned athleisure a few times, but we noticed you don't actually love the word athleisure.
- [02:37]
C
Right, Correct. I was gonna say something.
- [02:39]
B
What do you prefer?
- [02:40]
C
In the past, it's been activewear, but, like, the ownable term and the way that I speak about what we do is recreation, and that being the North Star and umbrella for us, like, it's such a beautiful, ownable, like, unique and fun place to play. Athleisure. To me, I feel like I was sensitive to it because it often felt like it wasn't really rooted in activity, but rather the reverse of that. Like, the rest days, like, it felt too chill. The leisure and really kind of my vision for outdoor voices, which comes through today with recreation, is all about how do we energize and inspire for, like, the active moments, like, actually in the activity. So, yeah, I had a, like, publicly known aversion to the term. I kind of don't. I could care less now, like, it's not that deep, but you're right. There's documentation around my aversion to it.
- [03:31]
B
Nick has a publicly known aversion to Genesis.
- [03:34]
A
Yeah. So I feel you on this. I know what that's like.
- [03:37]
B
Recreation reminds me of recess, though, which also hasn't. Kind of. It's part of the story, right?
- [03:42]
C
I mean, yeah, to. To a degree, for sure. I think. I grew up in Boulder, Colorado. I happen to live there part time now. Have you guys been to Boulder, Colorado?
- [03:50]
B
I have not.
- [03:50]
A
Not yet.
- [03:51]
C
Oh, my God. It's like the recreation heaven. And so, like, just the way I grew up and. And that as a city, like, it's. That term is just branded on all of us. Like, you're hiking, you're biking, you're kayaking. Like, your way of getting around is just through movement, on your bike, with your dog, et cetera. So I was born into this recreation universe and felt. Feel very much this duty to kind of like, inspire people and kind of show the way of recreation.
- [04:18]
A
Well, Ty, let's start there before we jump into the juiciness of OV and Outdoor Voices. But, you know, what was it about that childhood? Was there one moment when you realized you were going to become an entrepreneur, one detail that made you realize you would one day start a company?
- [04:30]
C
I don't think it's a choice for sure. I mean, I happen to have Parents and my mom's twin, and so aunt and uncles that all have been entrepreneurs. And I think in Boulder, we got the benefit of a lot of people who were my friend's parents who had started companies like Kinko's and the Ironman. And so it's a tiny little place geographically with a lot of potency on the entrepreneurial side. And so we just grew up with people who had built businesses and started things from zero. And so I guess I just learned from a very young age that that was a possibility.
- [05:05]
A
Kind of a pioneer attitude.
- [05:07]
B
You've mentioned that you had no idea what you wanted to do at college as you were headed to Parsons School of Design in New York City. Mm, I felt similar when I went to college.
- [05:16]
A
We didn't know podcasting was an option.
- [05:17]
C
Did we, Jack, how did you get.
- [05:20]
B
From 0 to 1 in terms of your first piece of Outdoor Voices apparel and what was your first sale like?
- [05:26]
C
Yeah, I kind of throughout high school, was interested in and, like, involved in a lot of things, like, from a sports perspective, art perspective, whatever. Like, I remember my science teacher in maybe sixth or seventh grade being like, this is a Renaissance kid. Just, like, I had this insane curiosity to, like, try a lot of things and, like, learn what I liked and didn't. And so when it came time to, like, choose a school to go to, I was conflicted. I could see, like, the sports path, or I rode horses very competitively, that path. And so it ultimately led to, like, I just need time off. I had visited a friend in Boston during the summer and was like, beautiful place. I want to go there. And so I took a year. I took a year off and worked in the Border Cafe in Harvard Square, like, slinging margaritas. And it was, like, such a formative and awesome time, but, like, very much didn't make total sense based on how, like, driven and into shit I had been. But that was an illuminating time period because I ultimately didn't feel attracted to the nor' Easters of Boston. Really felt kind of attracted to this energy that I'd heard of New York City, and so ultimately just trusted my instinct and got there. I would say my super strength is creativity, but I also have kind of the left and right brain. And so going to art school felt interesting, mostly because of the location and because people were doing shit there. But then what I found to be most beneficial was ultimately learning how to visualize my ideas. And so the first year of that program was all about, at the time, like, Adobe Suites and when you had something in your Mind like learning the tools to make it come to life on paper, to then go socialize and communicate. And so fast forward. I definitely never thought of myself in terms of building an apparel brand. My parents had done it in the past. They ran a successful company for 30 years in kind of the resort wear world. And inventory was always a bitch and just like it looked hard. And so I never like even right before kind of starting to think about outdoor voices, I wasn't at all interested in apparel, more so kind of other types of businesses. That said, having grown up very active going to art school in New York City, I found that I was much less active. I didn't have team and practices and coaches to keep me active. And so inspiration hit. West State highway inspiration hit and I was like looking down, going for a casual jog still in like a very intense looking Nike outfit and felt just like personally a lot of dissonance and so became interested in like for myself creating an active kind of outfit that more fit with my style and taste at the time, but had the same kind of credibility from a sweat and motion and good for the active use case standpoint. So west side highway inspiration.
- [08:17]
A
Let's talk about that first iconic product because also Ty, you were the first. We've interviewed a bunch of MBAs on this podcast and we are both guys who went to business school. You're the first artist turned executive we've spoken to. And that first product you created as an art student that became your business was this idea of a not athleisure recreational uniform. Right? Jack, you're picturing the one I'm thinking of.
- [08:41]
B
I'm picturing the one it's still for sale today. I just checked the website. The two tone leggings, that is the style that changed Athleisure. How did you come up with that?
- [08:49]
C
Great question. I think like from a brand perspective, the Nikes of the world, in which I have a lot of obviously a ton of respect and homage for like I wore it every day as a young athlete. Like there's a specific look and feel like at the time it was like black and neon and shiny and intense and like mesh kind of and mapping like where you're meant to have muscles and stuff. And I wanted to go like all the way opposite.
- [09:16]
B
I'm picturing like my little kid's Spider Man Halloween costume with a fake six.
- [09:20]
C
Pack to be hyperbolic. Yeah. Like I kind of intentionally like put that in my mind as an extreme aesthetic that I wanted to do the reverse of. And I'd Say, like, I've always been kind of aesthetically inclined and had good taste. And so I was looking at what I was wearing at the time. Like, brands that just had a very different look and feel and wanted my activewear to match that. I also loved this idea of, like, making it very simple, this uniform for doing things. And so it was quite simply like a compression top, this two tone legging that was like iconic in its own right. And, like, very much not the neon and black. And then building the uniform from there. And so the cloud knit in just a very simple hoodie and, like sweat bottom, like the sweat set. And it was four pieces. That was all you needed, nothing more, nothing less. And it had its own look and feel.
- [10:11]
A
Well, you did just mention the $100 billion beast in the room, Nike. So you launch a company to take on Nike. What else is going through your mind when you're doing that? Their tagline, of course, is just do it. Yours is doing things. Were you, like, intentionally focused on taking down Nike? You just set up your first product as the antithesis of Nike, Basically, I.
- [10:35]
C
Think from an aesthetic standpoint, like, that was that that's such like a culture and a thing, that it was intentional to, like, go to the other extreme. That said, really, really what I was up against was like, what I personally was feeling living in New York and going to art school and people, you know, smoking cigs everywhere, whatever, was like, I don't have inspiration to move and it's no longer about, like, crossing the finish line first, but rather like, what's going to pull me out of the dorm to, like, go on a jog. And that kind of inspiration to me at the time, like, looked different than how activewear brands at the time were advertising to me.
- [11:14]
B
So what was it like putting on those prototypes of Outdoor Voices, your first ever product, and going for a run?
- [11:19]
C
Creating a pair of leggings is certainly not rocket science, but I remember the first version coming back and like, certainly you couldn't wear it on your body. So there was a lot of trial and error. Just like in my dorm room, I had a bunk bed and had bolts of fabric that I would take up to midtown.
- [11:36]
B
The Garment district.
- [11:37]
C
Yeah, yeah. I spent a lot of time there and would just create it until I figured it out. And so I did not study fashion at Parsons. So pattern making, all of that was something that just by going and exposing myself to, started to figure out how to put pieces together.
- [11:53]
A
Okay, first of all, Jack, extra point credits on showing off to a New Yorker over here that you knew where the garment district was. I appreciate that was a little signal to me, a little dogma. So I appreciate it. But second time, I just want to fall off one more time on this Nike question because, you know, typically when we see brands succeed, it's often to be aspirational. You know, Nike's aspiration is performance. Aloe Yoga exists now with aspiration of wealth. Lululemon has aspiration of ultimate luxury quality. By building outdoor voices, were you not aiming for aspiration?
- [12:28]
C
I think it's asp. Aspirate, like recreation to me is like the most aspirational. You have free time to spend outside and try, like, hobbies. So I don't know that I necessarily like, intentionally thought of it that way, but I. I really lean into, like, the inspiration. I think, like, over time, I quite liked thinking about us against the Nikes, though I wouldn't say, like, they were directly on my mind as, like, who we're up against. Again, like, it was really just around what attracted to me, inspired me, and then like, the mission and purpose of Outdoor Voices. I think ultimately, like, fast forward to now is why I rejoined because I find it to have such an important role as we think about, like, a lot of the negativity in the world, both from a mental and physical standpoint today.
- [13:18]
B
You know, I want to quickly ask about the garment district one more time.
- [13:21]
A
You went to. Now you're just showing off, Jack.
- [13:23]
B
You went to some, like, textile building. Did they just let you in? Like, how did you get in there?
- [13:28]
A
Yeah, good point, good point.
- [13:29]
C
No, definitely. I mean, I had spent a lot of time, like, researching up and down and figuring out, like, who would take my call. I did use my like.edu address to ultimately get a response both on the investor side and. And at the pattern making kind of like manufacturing facilities.
- [13:47]
A
Like, position yourself as a bit of an underdog. Like, hey, just a student. Yeah, kind of like neon naivete. Well, really, what makes you take off in New York as the coolest athleisure brand and then nationwide is your super skill community. It becomes your differentiator. Walking clubs, running clubs, dog clubs. Everyone is trying to make community, including our podcast. It's all about community. It is the word of the last decade.
- [14:13]
B
No brand did it better than Outdoor Voices.
- [14:16]
A
True.
- [14:16]
B
So we gotta ask you, what is the playbook for creating a community as a brand and how do you do it today?
- [14:22]
C
Yeah, of course. I thought a lot about this.
- [14:24]
A
Yetis Tai will tell you her secrets for scaling outdoor voices right after this break. Netsuite Yetis what does the future hold for business?
- [14:34]
B
Ask nine experts and you'll get 10 answers. It's a bull market. It's a bear market. Rates will rise, rates will fall. Inflation's up or down. Can someone invent a crystal ball?
- [14:43]
A
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B
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- [15:12]
A
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- [15:19]
B
Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com T.
- [15:24]
A
Boy that's netsuite.com/t boy netsuite.com T Boy.
- [15:30]
B
This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.
- [15:32]
A
You know Jack, something I thought about in therapy last week. If I were a therapist, I would need my own therapist.
- [15:39]
B
Think of the questions, the venting, the complaints, the tears that we all bring into that leather couch.
- [15:45]
A
I mean, therapist me would need a break from me. You know, relieving other people's trauma every day for work, that could be pretty traumatic.
- [15:50]
B
It's secondhand trauma now. They do get paid to hear it. But still, I appreciate how welcoming my therapist is to my dirty laundry.
- [15:57]
A
So, besties, since October 10th is World Mental Health Day, we'd like to thank.
- [16:00]
B
Those therapists, our therapists, Better Help Therapists have helped over 5 million people like us on every issue you can imagine.
- [16:07]
A
And we've learned that simply saying out loud what we could have never articulated before that could Change your life.
- [16:12]
B
BetterHelp has 12 plus years of helping people say what they've only thought but never said.
- [16:16]
A
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B
Day we're celebrating the therapists who've helped millions of people take a if you're ready to find the right therapist for you, Better Help can help you start that journey.
- [16:30]
A
Our listeners get 10% off their first month@betterhelp.com tboy that's betterhelp h e l.
- [16:36]
B
P.Com tboy so we gotta ask you what is the playbook for creating a community as a brand? And how do you do it today?
- [16:45]
C
Yeah, of course, I thought a lot about this. It starts from the top, so articulating a clear mission, vision, purpose, reason for being. And so with Outdoor Voices, it's get the world moving and then how are we standing up rituals for activation both IRL and then digitally. And so as you mentioned, like one of the formats for us was local activations, activities that got people moving, that then would be amplified through social and essentially drive awareness for us.
- [17:12]
A
What kind of activities, Tai?
- [17:14]
C
I mean, it started with us like literally as a team on Canal street when we were probably a 15 person team. And I think our first New York Times feature was the team coming back from playing lunchtime basketball at the Canal street basketball court.
- [17:28]
A
So you would take your office to go and play pickup in the middle of the day, pick up basketball.
- [17:33]
C
One of our kind of operating principles was it starts with us. If we're going to expect it from the consumer, let's start with it ourselves. And so that tenant felt very small and local and then got really big over time as local events like that were happening in concert with one another kind of everywhere. But we'd lean into anything activity wise that felt ownable within this recreation world. So jogging, I think we hosted the first dog walking event, I wouldn't say ever in the history of the world. And so we definitely, with those types of activities, leaned into things that weren't going to be, you know, on ESPN that night in terms of activities. And then I'll kind of complete the thought in terms of building community. The third thing is through these rituals, having a place for people who are obsessed with or potential to become obsessed with the brand, to convene and spark bonds with one another. And so in my experience, like when you have formats through kind of various channels for super fans to meet other super fans, that's when the flywheel really starts to happen. They start telling their friends and it becomes a movement or a mission. Bigger than myself, bigger than the team, bigger than the brand. The fourth piece in this playbook is about reward. And so there's ways to do that kind of today, but really it's just recognition within the community that you're a super fan, that you have status, that you've been here longest, almost in a bragging, right kind of proof of fan type way. So those four things are really how you build community.
- [19:08]
A
Jack, I don't want to put pressure on you, but I noticed you were taking notes while Ty was Talking. Can you repeat the four part playbook for us there? Sure.
- [19:15]
B
First, it starts from the top. Have a clear mission, which for out yout Voices was get the World moving. Second is have rituals for activation locally irl, ideally. Third, let superfans meet other super fans because that's what creates the flywheel effect. And fourth is reward those superfans. I do have a question about step three. How does letting superfans meet other superfans? How does that cause them to get more vocal about supporting the brand?
- [19:43]
A
How does that build the community more?
- [19:44]
C
One thing that we saw as a very specific example, the moment that we'd take someone from our ambassador group or our community and make them a host, let's say at UCLA of an event, they became an owner in a sense. And then they'd bring whatever their 40 friends and really feel kind of like authorship in how that event came to life. And they'd bring it to life in a unique way, like different than how us, the brand directly would bring it to life. And so that empowerment as kind of a co owner of the experience ultimately came through in how they connected with others. And then it made that connection and ultimately that first interaction with the brand for those 40 attendees, all that more. All that more powerful. I mean, referral at the end of the day, but like happening live and in a format that connects to our vision and mission.
- [20:32]
A
Okay, so you got to kind of let go as a brand a little bit and be like, okay, I'm going to like let our audience and fans run with this instead.
- [20:38]
C
That's where the magic happens. Yeah, exactly.
- [20:40]
A
Now, Ty, Jack and I, in preparation for this interview, because we want this to be the best interview yet. We listen to every interview you've done. Full disclosure, going back a decade now, there is one product you have never talked about on other podcasts that Jack and I happen to think may be your most powerful product. Jack, do you want to say what that product is?
- [20:58]
B
The tote. Yeah, the doing things tote.
- [21:00]
C
Absolutely.
- [21:01]
B
You turned packaging into a walking billboard. And Nick and I have a few of them ourselves.
- [21:07]
A
Yeah.
- [21:08]
B
How did you come up with that brilliant marketing move of turning your tote bag into a billboard?
- [21:12]
A
Yeah. Just to be clear to our audience of besties out there, the first branded tote that we can ever picture is the Outdoor Voices branded tote that your clothes would come in and then it became your default tote bag. Led to the tote revolution.
- [21:23]
B
You walk out of the store with an NPR style canvas tote bag, which obviously was free, and you Kept it and you may still have it.
- [21:31]
A
Yeah. Could you tell us about where that idea came from, how it worked, the costs, the benefits of it?
- [21:35]
C
It originated because we opened our first pop up on Lafayette, like a few.
- [21:39]
B
Blocks up from our Canal street hq.
- [21:41]
C
Canal street hq. Thank you. We worked with this amazing, kind of like founding team, graphic designer Benjamin Critten. I remember when I first pinged him because I liked his work and he came to do branding at Outdoor Voices, including the tote bag. He responded like, we like this big studio and we walk over to Brooklyn to visit him for the first time, and we was just him. But he was a genius.
- [22:06]
A
Good for him.
- [22:08]
C
He did all of our original branding, including technical apparel for recreation, which was on the tote. But simply we needed a tote for people to purchase product at Lafayette and walk away with. And for whatever reason, that layout and just the strength of, I guess those words positioned on the tote became very much a thing. And you're right, it became walking billboards for us and it probably cost us $2.50. So a really effective awareness play. And then obviously we've seen. Yeah, just everyone and their mother lean into that.
- [22:43]
B
So $2.50 is not cheap. I mean, you must have been betting that this would become a walking billboard, right?
- [22:49]
C
I mean, I don't remember, but it felt manageable based on. Yeah, like, for sure. As we saw it turn on like that, almost as a. As an acquisition figure. Felt totally doable.
- [23:00]
B
Yeah.
- [23:01]
A
It kind of becomes a status symbol, A and B. Unlike a billboard, Jack, I guess it never expires. Right. Like. Like you said, you still have a toad 10 years later.
- [23:09]
C
Yeah.
- [23:09]
A
Well, that leads to a pivot in the business, Ty, which is you end up choosing to move the company and employees down to Austin, Texas, before Austin was cool and before Jack and I went to our first bachelor party down in Austin. I remember going out two years prior to that bachelor party. What made you decide on that decision? From downtown Manhattan to Austin, Texas?
- [23:31]
C
Yeah, one of, I guess our other or my personal kind of operating values was zig when they zag. And while we were a fashion company, I more so saw us a Nike or Lulu or Under Armour in terms of the potential, the potential for growth and just the path there. And each of those had an environment and a city outside of New York or LA that they could make their own and became kind of one with the identity of the brand and ultimately like a platform for their growth. And so Austin certainly was becoming hotter and hotter on the radar. Then I happened to be dating a restaurateur in Austin who essentially gave me an extensive tour. And I got to learn a lot about the place. And I loved that town. Lake, like the running trail was so central to the city itself. And so in the Zig with when they zag kind of strategy, we up and moved 40 people from New York to Austin, really to make that a place that felt our own and would support our growth. And in a lot of ways, it was pretty awesome.
- [24:39]
A
Are there any other examples of when you've zagged to a Zig Zig to a Zag that have benefited you guys as the brand Northstar?
- [24:45]
C
I mean, we do it constantly. This is a tiny little moment, but I remember Reddit having a conniption one day when we simply merchandised an assortment of products by dog walking as a serious type of activity to search by. And people went nuts on Reddit because it wasn't a formal tennis or whatever. That's a tiny, tiny micro example. But we did it and we do it all the time.
- [25:15]
B
So Nike Stock is down 50% from its all time high. And one of the reasons is because of this running club phenomenon.
- [25:23]
A
Totally.
- [25:24]
B
And Nike missed out on the running club. And you know, Hoka is kind of like the sneaker of the running club. And Hoka was an early collaborator with outdoor voices. In 2018, you guys launched a sneaker together. And Nick and I think that that moment is what put Hoka on the map as like the cool sneaker and the running club sneaker. Because Outdoor Voices was the epitome of cool and you were the face of it. How did that feel at the time.
- [25:51]
A
And how did you anticipate what was happening with this cool sneaker?
- [25:56]
C
It's back to Boulder, my aunt, my mom's twin auntie, we were hiking like the Flatirons Trail in Boulder, and she was wearing these Hokas with like a 4 inch heel. Not heel, whatever, like platform. And I was like, those are ungodly ugly. And she was like, oh, but they're a dream to hike in. And growing up like my mom and aunt set the tone in terms of we'd hike every day and so they knew good gear. And quite simply, she turned me on to Hoka. As I looked at Hoka, like the brand, I was fascinated by the origin story, loved their older styles. But then in kind of like more present time was not all that inspired by the aesthetic and was like, oh my God, we could do wonders there. And our approach to partnership was really around finding experts, like recreational experts. Let's call it a rafa, for instance, like ahoka that. Then we'd infuse our aesthetic and kind of coolness into and introduce our audience to. And so that was the walk up. They were a wonder to work with. It was super fun. We went wild with some of the colorways, but, like, the one that originally launched was this dusty pink and like, I guess the young, now millennial woman, like, was obsessed with that. And then rainbow laces, et cetera. But I remember we went all the way with another color that was like bright yellow and red. We called it, like the McDonald's colorway. And Emrata, like, showed up on the streets of New York wearing that colorway, like, looking very hot. Dog walking.
- [27:33]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [27:34]
C
And that was probably one of the most exciting moments to me was just that full circle from the mountains of Boulder, like, ungodly ugly to like, Anna Murata's shoe or foot dog walking.
- [27:47]
A
It's a little bit of a, like, subconscious zigging and zagging, though, when you see something as a fashion designer that's just ugly and then you totally embrace it.
- [27:55]
C
Yeah, totally.
- [27:56]
B
Nick and I did a full 45 minute episode on juicy Couture and those founders saw J. Lo in her music video wearing their tracksuits. And I feel like that might have been like your emrattom moment.
- [28:08]
C
Yeah, totally.
- [28:10]
B
Sneakers. You must have freaked out when you saw that she was wearing them.
- [28:14]
C
And dog walking, like, couldn't paint it better. It was amazing. Yeah.
- [28:18]
A
Couldn't have been more recreational. Now, Ty, we've been following your story, like we said, for a while, and we do want to get to learn more about the drama that happened five years ago. You know, the drama we actually covered in an episode of our podcast on this show. When you resigned from your own company. Not really by choice though, but you were forced out of the company that you had started and built.
- [28:39]
B
We've heard you describe outdoor voices as your baby. And this all happened while you were on leave after having had your first actual baby. Can you tell us the narrative of what happened versus what actually happened?
- [28:51]
C
I will. I've had many years, like, distance from this, thank God. And 90% of that experience was amazing, 10% brutal. But I think really what it comes down to is we really got the direct to consumer model wrong. And so I ended up in a situation with many other founders of brands where we were able to attract capital, significant amounts of capital to accelerate this vision and the growth. And that's cool, but obviously the stakes and kind of goalposts get increasingly high and if you start to miss those, shit goes wrong. Where at the end of the day, the number one thing I've learned in that experience and kind of beyond is ownership matters. And so when you raise a lot of capital, you dilute yourself and then no longer have control. And so when push came to shove, I had deluded myself to the extent that I wasn't the one that was able to make final decisions on things. And it really became more about consensus at the board. And we had very different views on the board in terms of how to grow the business at whatever that point in time, 2019 or something. And so ultimately like I was a first time founder and CEO, like I did not see how I could continue to exist running this company without decision making control. I ended up leaving after an article came out kind of authored by one of the chairman of the board or the chairman of the board that I viewed as totally preventable. But I remember that night seeing kind of this narrative and knowing how very much it didn't sit well with me. And I looked up how to resign and so had never left a company before, thought maybe it had to be like formal and there were legal terms. So I have this little I hereby tender my resignation doing things tie. And then that was my first kind of departure from the brand.
- [30:51]
A
You know, normally a CEO termination is made by the board behind closed doors. For you though, it seemed like there was like a campaign to bring down your reputation and force a resignation instead. Is that how it felt to you? Because that's how it looked publicly to us.
- [31:07]
C
Yeah, I think that was like one individual's intent.
- [31:11]
B
Why would that be their intention?
- [31:12]
C
I think we just saw the world differently. We had grown up in different times and I had really believed in this kind of community first playbook with for instance, neighborhood stores that were low rent and you'd convene around through activity often. And then we had started to kind of open up more traditional, big expensive retail stores which just frankly had not been part of the model or really how I kind of viewed the right strategy for ov. So it simply came down to different views on how to proceed. And ultimately I didn't have the controls based on the structure and kind of cap table to push back on it. And it became an untenable situation.
- [31:56]
A
Ty, maybe you can share this, maybe you can't. But just to give our audience a sense of what we mean by diluted ownership in a company, you founded the company. So you start out with 100%. It's your idea. What did your ownership stake go down to after raising venture capital money?
- [32:10]
C
Yeah, I think before I left, it was at 10%.
- [32:14]
B
And.
- [32:16]
C
Yeah, I did not know, having this being my first company, just how important control and ownership is when there isn't consensus at the board level. So felt that firsthand. And it was interesting because there was a massive kind of priority explosion around this moment, and we're a private company, so that. That was hard to kind of reconcile. But I, like you said, this was my baby. So, like, the board asked me to come back a few weeks later, and I did. But it was very clear to me, just based on all of the drama, that I would then be kind of like, put in this box and like, really not have the agency that I would require to, like, continue running business. So I left again.
- [33:02]
B
So you didn't have Zuckerberg's 51%, so the board could have terminated you. Do you think they did it the way they did it because you were so popular and so cool that terminating you would have been bad, A bad look or.
- [33:18]
C
I don't know. I think we just, as a group didn't have the right ingredients for the recipe. And that was a hard kind of situation to be in. Like, I don't really blame anyone. It just was not the right kind of people sitting around the table to come to a solution that ultimately would benefit all of us.
- [33:36]
A
So I guess take a step from the emotional angle a bit and now look at the business. As you started looking ahead in this moment of reflection you're describing, how do you feel about taking venture capital money now? And how do you feel about the direct to consumer business model now?
- [33:51]
C
Yeah, I think it didn't play out well for most businesses. There certainly were a few winners, but I think particularly for like, physical product inventory businesses, like, taking on that much capital and then scaling kind of at growth, you know, at a growth rate that's just like, massive. There's just a lot that can happen. And I think, I think a business like Outdoor Voices, like, should be able to attract capital, but. But not maybe at that same pace. And ultimately winning for me, kind of with this type of business is all about longevity and lasting. So we're definitely seeing that shift, particularly as customer acquisition costs have gotten so extreme on Instagram and Facebook. And obviously it's really easy to start a business and really hard to be successful. And so I think ultimately we're from a consumer, brand and business standpoint in an environment where brands are able to attract less dollars, and that's probably a good thing in terms of getting the fundamentals right to build brands that people really care about and last over a long period of time.
- [35:01]
A
So build the fundamentals before taking on that dilutive venture capital money.
- [35:05]
C
Yeah. And I just question for this type of business, how much of the venture capital money is required? And I think it's probably just a question around, like, in what, what growth is expected? What does winning look like in a certain amount of time? What, what is, what is the time frame?
- [35:23]
A
Well, Ty, Jack and I kind of buried the lead because the exciting thing is that after everything we just said, you just came back. You're now back at Outdoor Voices as of three months ago. Like an incredible full circle moment.
- [35:35]
B
Can you tell us who asked whom? Can you put us in the room when you got the phone call? And did you have any reservations to coming back? I will answer that question right after this break.
- [35:45]
A
Airbnb Yetis, full disclosure, we're already thinking about holiday vacation. You got to book these things early these days.
- [35:52]
B
Are you kidding? I booked my holiday vacation, like six months ago. I do it like the Germans right after my Christmas vacation. I book next year's Christmas vacation for 2028.
- [36:02]
A
Okay. But also, full disclosure, Eddie, I'm jealous here because I'm paying for my whole trip. But Jack, you have money from your Airbnb helping pay for yours.
- [36:10]
B
It's my side. Hustle, profit, puppy, besties.
- [36:12]
A
You can host your entire place or just your extra space.
- [36:14]
B
Really satisfying feeling, by the way, when my guest messages me that their first night went wonderfully, it just puts me at ease. And it's like, wow, I am making money right now and somebody's having a great time.
- [36:25]
A
So you're going to give a day away for free?
- [36:27]
B
No, I wouldn't say yet.
- [36:29]
A
He's your home. Might be worth more than you think.
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B
Find out how much@airbnb.com host ZipRecruiter Yetis.
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A
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B
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A
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A
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B
ZipRecruiter.com tboi ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire. Can you tell us who asked whom? Can you put us in the room when you got the phone call? And did you have any reservations to coming back?
- [37:48]
C
Oh, yeah. I did a lot of work to like, detach from that experience and kind of, you know, make it as much of an opportunity as possible and a masterclass in a lot of ways. I pretty quickly, like, started a new company. Try your best. And so I became very focused on, like, the next thing. Let's see, a little probably a year and a half ago now, I had received a call from one of my original Outdoor Voices investors, Keith Miller, who also had a lot of involvement in supreme and just a really great brand guy. And he made the connect to this guy Corey, who runs Consortium Partners. And Consortium Partners had bought Outdoor Voices, I guess. Now, a year ago, he came to me before that news was announced, and one wanted to let me know. And then two essentially asked if I'd be interested in having a combo around. Re engaging. And, like, at that point in time, I was definitely. It wasn't on my radar. Not even, like, something I really considered. But he did get me to have a second conversation.
- [38:53]
A
Okay, and what excited you about that opportunity?
- [38:56]
C
I don't think, like, I was excited at the time, just open. I'm kind of. I am just a. No. Like, I am. I tend to be wired that way. So curious to learn more. And then as we started to, like, have additional conversations, I really just kind of wanted to understand if I'd feel energized by the opportunity.
- [39:16]
B
Did they tell you it was a mistake letting you go? I mean, it wasn't their decision to let you go?
- [39:23]
C
Well, I mean, I think pretty clear because in the five years I was gone, like, the brand essentially became super dormant and almost died. So without, like, someone with a clear vision and kind of, like, fully owning the execution, like, the brand that was, you know, hot fully fell off.
- [39:41]
A
Well, you kind of, you're part of this trend now because Whitney Wolf heard returned to Bumble Boomerang CEO. Even like at a macro level, like Disney World, you know, Disney. Bob Iger returns to Disney a couple of years ago. And we've seen these boomerang CEOs before. So the challenge is kind of like, what do you do differently? Like, how do you strike that balance of what to change and what to keep the same? And what did you decide for Outdoor Voices?
- [40:05]
C
I became most energized immediately. Just in reconnecting to again, the purpose and mission and in coming back, it's been quite cool. There's like, I didn't know if anyone would care. And the emotional connection to that, to the original vision and mission is very alive and well, which is exciting. I felt that personally the right structure was required. So as I kind of got into the details of this partnership, ownership was something super crucial to me. And just understanding with this new group what winning would look like. And then the way that this version of Outdoor Voices is funded is quite different and it's definitely more patient capital. And so those three things I'd say were key criteria for me to consider re engaging.
- [40:53]
A
What about on the fashion and trend side? Like, so much has changed. Like when Jack and I first got out of college, millennials were like, everyone wanted to address millennials. We were the cool thing. Now everyone's talking about Gen Z and like Jack and I did a story on Gen Alpha the other day. So, you know, stylistically, how does the business visually change? Because are you targeting the same older millennial customer or are you now targeting 20 year olds who are Gen Z?
- [41:18]
C
Yeah, the approach has been definitely to reactivate our original core customer, the millennials, while introducing and more of the emphasis is on introducing this Gen Z kind of younger demo to the doing things philosophy. The approach is very similar to the beginnings in that starting with the foundation first and creating core pieces as part of this uniform for recreation. What we've layered on top and we did do this to a degree, but it's been extremely fun. Is getting very creative in these activity specific capsules or drops that live on top of the foundation. And so our first activity specific collection has been around equestrian and I mean, just in time we've hit, I guess the trend like, you know, right on the money in that Vogue had their cover with Gigi and Kendall riding horses. Just like it's very apparent that there's Beyonce cowboy. There's nice Tailwinds around horse girl. I happen to ride very seriously and for fun and wanted to design a riding pant for myself. But I guess the headline for me is in the past, I felt to be taken credibly kind of as like such a young company in the activewear space, we needed to stay quite narrow and only use technical materials. And those being technical kind of performance materials that were made for sweat. What. What I see as such the opportunity now, and we're like very much stepping into, I don't know necessarily if it's just a maturity thing or experience or sign of the times, but really fully owning this entire outfitting experience underneath this recreation vision. And so maybe a little more expansive in the sense of what Ralph Lauren has done and really built out this lifestyle. And we just introduced hike, which for the first time has outerwear and accessories and just, I guess, more daring styles that feel complete.
- [43:20]
A
On that Ralph Lauren, are you gonna go like full Ralph Lauren? Like, you know, he's launched a coffee shop, he's launched the Polo Bar where you can get hamburgers. Would you go like, full lifestyle, like, hospitality?
- [43:30]
C
I'm hesitant to use the term lifestyle because of what it conjures up. But more so, like from a technical apparel perspective, we've expanded, like where we have. Where we feel comfortable playing, where it's not just like base layer or compression. And that I think, like you're seeing come to life in the collections. And I think as we think about like Gen Z, more of the creative kind of, how do I take these pieces and like, make them uniquely my own is something that we're really leaning into. So through color and through the way that there's a hand signature kind of embroidery of the OV logo, it feels personal and more unique than just, I don't know, highly commercial compression bra and legging. So that's kind of, I guess, a brain dump in terms of how I think about this.
- [44:28]
B
No, that's fair.
- [44:29]
A
I mean, that's how some people think about business. It's just a lot going on in your head.
- [44:33]
B
So the collections, the capsules, the activity specific collections, those are all different and daring. Is the uniform of the new OV the same as the uniform of the old ov?
- [44:47]
C
Yeah, we brought the heroes back. So the two tone legging, the tech.
- [44:50]
B
Sweat, I even saw the men rec shorts.
- [44:54]
C
Men like your guys category has not gotten evolved yet.
- [44:58]
B
No, we haven't gotten the attention yet.
- [45:00]
C
In spring, you get a lot of attention.
- [45:02]
B
We do. Mm.
- [45:03]
C
Yeah.
- [45:04]
B
We should actually. Yeah, we should talk about a Podcasting capsule, like have that be an activity.
- [45:10]
A
Yes, we could use some sweat wicking. But you mentioned how you'd like all these business ideas going on in your head. Also understandable because you're running three companies at the same time right now. Okay, you are running Joggy. You're running the energy drink company. You're running Outdoor Voices, the Athleisure company. You're also running a tech company that is focused on community that you described to us so well before. What are the patterns that you're seeing running in completely three different industries?
- [45:37]
C
I see it as world building, so they all fit together. To me like the tech company is my main thing. I am the CEO of the tech company and we have raised a significant amount of capital. We have over 300 of the top consumer brands on the app, engaging their fans and so. So it's fun. I've said this before, but going from software weare as in closed to software ware has been quite an evolution. But that's my main thing. I spend time here in SF with the team every other week and then Outdoor voices, just given. I spent so much time on the product and brand building side of it for many years. Deeply in the weeds. Like it's almost my creative outlet in Cherry on Top. And so I find it very fun. And we've been able to reassemble a number of the core original team members. And so that just feels lucky, I guess and slightly different in terms of like it doesn't feel as pressured as it did in the past.
- [46:44]
A
You mentioned Tyb, your tech company, the software ware company being your main focus right now. Can you tell us because like Jack and I are running one company, media business right now. That's a lot like what are kind of the tactics you have because you have to be so organized running three different companies. Like how do you pull that off on a day to day basis?
- [47:06]
C
Enter Joggy. Joggy Energy.
- [47:10]
A
Yeah. Your other company.
- [47:11]
B
That's hilarious.
- [47:12]
C
Well, yeah, Joggy helps. We'll send you guys some. It's amazing organic energy. Let's see. But I guess my, my kind of main superpower beyond being very creative is I'm extremely good at prioritizing. And so I always know kind of of three things, like what's the most important thing to do first? And that can come like the. What can be in those positions can come from different companies, the family, whatever. And then I have like an insane sense of urgency. I remember early on like one of my board members using kind of this sound bite of compression of time Equals value. But I've been a sprinter in the past and pace really matters. And so across everything, like, like one of the ways I operate is just fast.
- [47:53]
A
Well, Ty, you know, the other big time CEO we know who's running multiple companies at once is Elon Musk. And you know Elon Musk, you got to know him when you were building a company in Texas. Over the last decade. You also have received PR about having a friendship with Elon Musk because as we've seen from Tesla's car sales, his public Persona has had an impact on his own business. Has that affected your business at all? Being associated with Elon in either a positive or a negative way?
- [48:24]
C
I don't really comment on it. It's just interesting that people, you know, this is not my first experience with clickbait and headlines, so I don't really have any comment on that.
- [48:37]
B
You've become the face of the company again, which is both an asset and a liability. In some ways it's an asset because now people want to buy your clothing again, obviously. Is there any hedging you're doing this time on associating yourself too closely to ov, just in case you ever want to step away, like you don't want it to become a hollow company again like it became when you left the first time?
- [49:00]
C
It's a good question. I am really just leaning into kind of being myself. And so I show up in ways that feel organic and authentic. And really my mission is to create value, you know, for the owners of the company and then the fans and customers. So that's really purely where I'm focused. I do have a big, like, I do have a strong kind of belief in like saying things directly on myself and have obviously felt like the pain of, you know, other people spinning up a narrative, et cetera. So the more that I can say it directly and connect directly and have closeness with the customer, at the end of the day, that's what I'm prioritizing in this second. Go.
- [49:44]
A
You know, Tyler, as I was going for a run in my 10 year old outdoor voices gear at this point, which I have bought more since I should say, even though this has lasted for a long time, one thing Jack and I were speaking about was how the way we like to approach business news is we like to think of each of our episodes as a creative process. You know, we don't just want to report the news. Jack and I really try to do what we call pop is pop culture meets business. And that's why we wrote you a little poem to kick off today's show. And so we were curious, like we get inspiration creatively from a bunch of places outside of news. Curious where you get inspiration from and like what drives you to come up with new ideas.
- [50:23]
C
I very much like am a big believer in doing things, so I try a lot of things, including building companies, including having kids, including sports and activities. And I think for me inspiration comes from what I call kinetic meditation. Like moving and active participation in something ultimately just is what I find most energizing. I think it's been quite cool. Introducing Outdoor Voices. The concept and doing things, the philosophy to my 5 year old, Sunny, because she and Champy 5 and 3 were not around when I was part of OV and so in the first kind of video that we put out, it starts with them being and very kind of honestly asking, what is outdoor Voices? And I thought that was quite cool just to think about everything I'm doing through the lens of the younger generation and my kids in particular, and how I can be a teacher to them in the best kind of way to live.
- [51:26]
B
You know, I was so happy when Allbirds launched. Smallbirds.
- [51:31]
A
Yeah. The little kid's shoes.
- [51:32]
B
Is that on the pipeline for the fall? You said men are coming in the spring.
- [51:36]
C
We do have a kids exercise dress coming as part of the stroller roller collection in March.
- [51:43]
B
Okay.
- [51:43]
A
And then Pod Leisure Wear after that. I think that's spring 2027, Jack. Well, to zig from the zag, Jack, should we jump into our rapid fire questions?
- [51:54]
B
So, Ty, five rapid fire questions to finish the show.
- [51:57]
A
Here we go, Jack. What do we got?
- [51:58]
B
What is the best brand that is not Outdoor Voice?
- [52:01]
C
I love Acne. Acne Studios and Crocs. It's a tie.
- [52:05]
A
Okay. And second, Ty, what industry is begging for its Outdoor Voices moment?
- [52:10]
C
I mean college campuses, universities, school. The gift shop. Yeah, school.
- [52:15]
A
Oh, yeah, I just ordered something from the gift shop.
- [52:17]
C
Yeah, the bookstores.
- [52:19]
B
What is your dream? Outdoor Voices collab that hasn't happened already.
- [52:24]
A
Could be a celeb or could be a brand.
- [52:25]
C
Jane Fonda, though we've tried that before. I don't know if it's happening. Let me know if it's in the cards.
- [52:30]
A
Ty, what's the best snack? You always have stocked in your house.
- [52:34]
C
I have joggy energy and then Fruit Riot. Have you guys tried Fruit Riot?
- [52:37]
A
I am shocked I haven't tried Fruit Riot.
- [52:39]
B
That's right up your alley, Nick.
- [52:41]
A
I like the sound of that, Jack.
- [52:42]
B
Okay, what's the best restaurant in Texas and the best restaurant in Colorado, Jack's.
- [52:47]
C
Fish House in Boulder. And then there's like a very organic kind of hippie, dippy cafe in Austin.
- [52:56]
A
Well, there may be a few more of them now since you left. And then finally, Ty, if you were a stock, what would be your three or four letter stock ticker?
- [53:05]
C
Tyy.
- [53:06]
B
Ty.
- [53:07]
A
Y Ty.
- [53:08]
C
Ty. Or I guess it should be Tyb. So we'll own Tyb. Try your best.
- [53:13]
A
And finally, at the end of every show, Ty, Jack and I like to whip up the takeaways on the story we just covered.
- [53:18]
B
Jack, we're going to let you whip up this takeaway. So Ty, what is the takeaway on Ty Haney and Natural Voices?
- [53:23]
C
Trust the timing of your life. We're just in time.
- [53:26]
B
Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Congratulations on coming back to ov. It's amazing that you run three companies. Congratulations on doing it all with two kids, a boy and a girl, three and five. This is all incredible.
- [53:38]
A
So cool to speak with you. Hey, and by the way, Ty, thank you for accidentally helping sponsor our first newsletter product a decade ago. We really appreciated that.
- [53:46]
C
Let's do it again.
- [53:48]
B
Awesome.
- [53:48]
C
I love it.
- [53:55]
B
If you like the best one yet, you can listen ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
- [54:01]
A
Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. And before you go, tell us a.
- [54:05]
B
Little bit about yourself by filling out a short survey@wondery.com survey we want to.
- [54:11]
A
Get to know you.