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The Best People with Nicolle Wallace
Alex Wagner: Trump’s MAGA Base is "Mad at Daddy"
00:48:45
Alex Wagner on why MAGA is souring on Trump. And how Democrats can take a page from his carnival barker brand of politics.
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- [00:01]
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- [01:01]
Nicole Hemmer
I genuinely think it's a betrayal of the isolationist policy that he wrote into office on. Right. And the notion of betrayal is so piercing right now. I think in the wake of the Epstein stuff, this idea that you sold us a bill of goods, you are not who you said you were going to be. This, I think war represent it ties into the Epstein betrayal. It's its own sort of betrayal. And that's what's riled maga's hackles so much, or at least some MAGA folks. An emotional sense that, you know, daddy, daddy said something to us and then he, he lied to us and then he lied again to us and we are mad at daddy.
- [01:38]
Alex Wagner
Hi, everyone and welcome to this week's episode of the best people podcast. This week's guest is one of my favorite people. She truly is one of the best people. On those days that I'm not quite enthused about anchoring two hours about the destruction Trump has wrought in America. My team will say, guess what? Wags is on set. And it resets the whole day for me. So without any further ado, the host of Runaway country, my dear friend, Alex Wagner. Hi. Hi, my friend. That's a true story. When I am feeling like, ugh, we're going to start with a war and then do the end of the rule of law. I'm so scared and anti Semitism. And then we're gonna do the people dying in detention and they're like, but Wags is on set. Oh, my God, girl.
- [02:33]
Nicole Hemmer
And then I come out there and I, like, rail against the administration and, like, conjure doomsdays. And you're like, thank you and goodbye.
- [02:41]
Alex Wagner
We all feel worse. No, I don't ever feel worse. I mean, I feel like the thing that makes me feel better is that 65% of the country is like, oh, yeah, no, I'm. I don't want that.
- [02:50]
Nicole Hemmer
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's true. It's true. And it's important, I think, for us to both inform them, but also give voice to the rage and dissatisfaction and depression and all of it, because it's a very emotional experience we're all living through.
- [03:03]
Alex Wagner
But I love that that animates runaway country. It's that we can't just have the distance from what is causing us pain, that this is transpiring in our country. But that's who you're out there connecting us to, trying to.
- [03:18]
Nicole Hemmer
I mean, it's hard. I will say it's particularly hard in this administration because so many people who are right in the center of things are terrified to speak. But, like, we speak with a retired master sergeant who used to work in the Pentagon in their civilian protection unit and who was fired last year and who was like, one of the people on the team that would have been tasked with making sure, oh, say, the United States didn't conduct Tomahawk missile strike on a girls elementary school in Iran and has just a visceral, emotional accounting of what it was like to watch that strike, knowing that it could have been prevented, knowing that it was our strike immediately, and then also trying to put into context what it means to be the country that makes this its value statement, you know, overseas. This is who we are. This is being done in our names and kind of wrestling with all of that. And I think one of the things that when you get a constant stream of bad news all the time, you sort of get a little bit numb to it. And it's not that we need to re traumatize ourselves every hours, but I think personal stories really help bring an emotional resonance to it that I think is important not just for. For us to be engaged in the story, but also to work through it as citizens and human beings. So, I don't know, that's what we try. Sometimes we fail.
- [04:27]
Alex Wagner
I think that's all that we have. I mean, and you look at where there's been a retreat from Trump, and it's not in a lot of places, but, you know, Liam Ramos, Renee, Nicole. Good, Alex Preddy. I mean, we now had a new nominee to lead that department singing from a totally different songbook. I don't know that he's made of different stuff than Christy. I shot my dog. And I wrote about it in my own book, Gnome.
- [04:48]
Nicole Hemmer
Rip Cricket.
- [04:49]
Alex Wagner
Cricket might get the last laugh.
- [04:52]
Nicole Hemmer
I mean, we will never forget Cricket's name.
- [04:54]
Alex Wagner
I think it's everything you need to know about someone's character. Not just that they shoot their puppy in the head for being too frisky, but that they are the storyteller of
- [05:03]
Nicole Hemmer
shooting their puppy and think it's a good story.
- [05:06]
Alex Wagner
Right.
- [05:06]
Nicole Hemmer
And think it's a masterclass in leadership. Like, that makes Cruella De Vil look like PETA. You know what I'm saying? Like, that is not what we want out of our leaders. And so now the bar is so low that a former UFC fighter.
- [05:19]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, you cheered physical violence against Grandpa.
- [05:23]
Nicole Hemmer
I mean, feel like we are awoken to this deep American lust. Or at least this White House tells us that we want to be more violent. Not just like, not PC, but like, the way they're couching this war, the way they're packaging it in terms of like, video games and NFL games and lethality and like, you know, forget the human cost of things. Like, just go for it and shoot the gun, whether it's at your dog or at an enemy or at a civilian is like, it suggests that, you know, America was born out of violence, right? It was a revolution, slavery, et cetera. Blood is on our hands. But the idea that we celebrate and lust for death and bloodshed is some dark business. And this administration keeps telling us over and over again that that's what we want. And sometimes the polling reflects that there is a certain segment of this country that does want that. And I don't know where it comes from. Cause I think it's separate and apart from, like, the phenomenon of loneliness and disengagement. It's something darker and really poisonous that I think lives within us and our body politic.
- [06:30]
Alex Wagner
It's what makes it so fascinating that the strike on the girls school in Iran is so divisive within the MAGA movement. I mean, some of the first political indictments, I guess, came from Laura Ingraham, Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly. And I don't know if it gets at the violence piece or just the isolationism piece. But you go back to things being done in our name. The strike on the girls school is something that isn't sitting well even with those high profile members of Trump's coalition
- [07:02]
Nicole Hemmer
I can't believe I'm going to say this sentence. I want to give Megyn Kelly and Tucker Carlson credit that it's about the moral stain and not just, oh, we're involved in foreign adventurism. But I genuinely think it's a betrayal of the isolationist policy that he wrote into office on. Right. And the notion of betrayal is so piercing right now. Think in the wake of the Epstein stuff, this idea that you sold us a bill of goods, you are not who you said you were going to be. This, I think, war, it ties into the Epstein betrayal. It's its own sort of betrayal. And that's what's riled maga's hackles so much, or at least some MAGA folks. It's an emotional sense that, you know, Daddy, Daddy said something to us, and then he. He lied to us, and then he lied again to us, and we are mad at Daddy. I say that as Tucker, as the young child. No.
- [07:48]
Alex Wagner
And like, it is such an. It's so gross from the outside, but it is such an intimate. Like, the reason MAGA rolled to the Republican nomination three times in the presidency twice is because of the intimacy of the relationship with Trump.
- [08:02]
Nicole Hemmer
Totally.
- [08:02]
Alex Wagner
Right. It was paternalistic. But I wonder if you think that emotional piece has frayed or if it's all that remains.
- [08:11]
Nicole Hemmer
I mean, beyond just the emotional, sort of the visceral connection. And I would. I would say that there's almost a religious connection, too, just from my time reporting on going out to Trump rallies and stuff. There is a revivalist aspect of all of this. That and his positioning himself as the top of the pyramid of white Christian nationalism is like a powerful thing with
- [08:30]
Alex Wagner
some, which in that, like, in that description, like, the white is the only thing that he's really got right.
- [08:35]
Nicole Hemmer
Like, it is not Christian and I don't national. I mean, it's jingoism masked as patriotism, but it's not true love of country. He's sending American service members to get killed overseas and says, that's war. He goes to a dignified transfer in a baseball hat and doesn't go to one. He doesn't talk about these deaths. He just says, that's the way it is. Suck it up. But, you know, I think his poll, his emotional claws are still in the base. And it becomes, actually, I think, not to play armchair psychologist. I'll leave that to Dax Shepard.
- [09:06]
Alex Wagner
But, but, like, see, we are such podcasters, like, thank you, Internet, for catching
- [09:14]
Nicole Hemmer
up with my soul. Do you know, I mean, yes. Am I allowed to curse on this, I'm not allowed to curse you.
- [09:21]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, yeah. Like, the only thing that feels adventurous in my life is when the podcast has, like, the explicit rating.
- [09:27]
Nicole Hemmer
I'll give you the E. Okay. But I was gonna say the. Not to play armchair psychologist, but I do think the more people are forced to defend Trump, the more they dig in, because it's doesn't. It's not about Trump anymore. It's about their own ego. And it's like, I rode for this
- [09:42]
Alex Wagner
dude through all this. Yeah.
- [09:44]
Nicole Hemmer
I'm not back.
- [09:44]
Alex Wagner
Not getting off. Yeah.
- [09:45]
Nicole Hemmer
Because it would be a humiliation.
- [09:47]
Alex Wagner
Do you have anyone in your personal life that's a Trumper that you have to navigate? So do I. In some ways, it's never been easier. Like, okay, I'm so sorry you didn't get your isolationism, your tax cuts, or your cheap stuff. Are you okay? You know, and in other ways, it's never been more distressing to see that they're still, like, they're still on board with Don.
- [10:08]
Nicole Hemmer
But that's where it's like, these become, at least for me, much more psychological than political conversations. It's much more like, how are you hurting? Like, how is this man filling a gap or making you feel? Not less than like, and how can we, as your friends, family members, or society help? I mean, not everybody can be dealt with like this. But I feel like because I have personal relationships with these people, it's like, okay, how do we, like, fill in the cracks here so that you can understand that what this drug dealer is promising you is a short term high at great expense. So it's not even like I try and argue immigration policy anymore. It's just like, why are you lonely? Why are you sad? Why are you depressed? Why are you angry? You know, like, let's get at that.
- [10:49]
Alex Wagner
We talk about our Trump people as, like, people in a cult, that you can't engage them at an intellectual level. You just have to respect their belief system. Like, as though they were nudists. And you would, like, hope they'd cover their parts when you visited. But you love them the same. But, like, because it's so detached from the reasons they were part of it to begin with. It has obviously nothing to do with isolationism. It obviously has nothing to do with economic growth. I mean, we are on the precipice of economic catastrophe right now. You have to respect that. It's the other stuff.
- [11:24]
Nicole Hemmer
The only issue where he's truly delivered that actually has kept people in his corner, come what may, is the abortion issue. Like, Die hard pro lifers feel like he delivered them on the Supreme Court. I think that's a group that's separate and apart from the. I would say the majority of maga. But to your point about the cults, it's not about directly combating them on why they think black and brown people should be rounded up en masse and deported to prisons that have no bearing on their lives. You know, it's about, I think, going around the circular driveway and coming to the house the long way.
- [11:59]
Alex Wagner
So you went to Minneapolis. I mean, you did. You did our show a bunch of times from there. I think that when we look back and how we started to get out of this, if we get out of this, which I think is still. It's an option question we should be asking, do we get out of this? I think the survivors of Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell's abuse who have gone to Washington and insisted upon being totally bipartisan in their private and public interactions with members and the people of Minneapolis will be the first steps that the rest of us sort of stood on to try to climb out of this moment.
- [12:33]
Nicole Hemmer
Totally. Can I say one thing to people who don't know what it's like to have a friend and a colleague like you? It's like I have these very distinct memories of being in like very chaotic, important situations on the ground. And it's always, Nicole wants you. Can you do the hit? Like I. I have a distinct memory of being outside of a protest at the Treasury Department and being like, hold on. I'm like, I'm doing a hit for Nicole on the phone. Like, you're so awesome. You're always is just like, put her on the phone. Let's go wherever you are.
- [13:04]
Alex Wagner
Because I love like the drive by.
- [13:06]
Nicole Hemmer
Oh my gosh, we can't get a shot of.
- [13:08]
Alex Wagner
I'm like, just have her.
- [13:09]
Nicole Hemmer
I know like outside the jail at January. I mean just any time I'm in the field. I feel like you're such an incredible friend and a supporter of fields reporting and it is like so it. I have undying admiration for you for the fact that you are always so game for it, like wherever the fucking.
- [13:27]
Alex Wagner
It is our lifeblood. And I mean I have clips that I still play from you. I think you worked for the circus when you did all that militia reporting. Because I remember I was like, wait, what?
- [13:39]
Nicole Hemmer
Well, we do.
- [13:40]
Alex Wagner
Wait, no, because I think you're reporting on the militias. Was the first time I was like, oh, why are they on camera? Like I remember, like, I'm old enough to remember when militia members had, like, their voice altered and the black screen, and you were out there with, like, eight of them.
- [13:55]
Nicole Hemmer
Before the election?
- [13:56]
Alex Wagner
Before the election. Well, before, you know, Trump was, like, riding with the militias. They were talking to you for the service.
- [14:04]
Nicole Hemmer
Like, if. If Trump loses the 2020 election, we're gonna. It's gonna be the next civil war.
- [14:09]
Alex Wagner
And they said civil war to you?
- [14:10]
Nicole Hemmer
Yeah. So just to be clear, if Trump wins, then the election is not fraudulent. If Biden wins, then it is fraudulent. Absolutely. Does that mean you guys are gonna take to the streets and say, hell, no, this is not a legitimate outcome?
- [14:23]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, well, I woke up free man
- [14:25]
Nicole Hemmer
this morning, and on November 4th, I
- [14:27]
Alex Wagner
wake up a free man, and if I feel I need to go overturned or fraudulent on the leg, then nobody on earth is going to hold me back.
- [14:33]
Nicole Hemmer
I feel that our country is more in danger from the domestic terrorists than we are from foreign enemies. The original civil war has nothing on what's coming.
- [14:45]
Alex Wagner
And I think that was the first time I really processed what had happened or what the coalition on the right looked like, that it wasn't a bug, that the random militia person was like, he's our guy. It was a feature.
- [15:00]
Nicole Hemmer
Yes. And I will say, like, being there and talking to them. I remember they were smoking cigarettes and they were packing heat, and they were just like. And I remember thinking, I feel like we are in a very precarious situation, both me and also the country. They enjoy talking to you. Yes. And I genuinely do like talking to people from all over the place, especially people who are radically different than me. But there's this huge debate about who we platform. And I'm like, I'm a journalist, and my job.
- [15:27]
Alex Wagner
I think the debate's over. Right. Like, we've had three elections. Trump won two of them. We should, like, let our curiosity run wild wherever it takes questions or wherever it takes us. Like, I think that people wanting to get to the bottom of that is super important. And you were doing it ahead of January 6th. Yeah, it's super important after January 6th. Like, how did that happen? I mean, you have some of the only reporting on what they were prepared for.
- [15:53]
Nicole Hemmer
We were out in the field, and I was in Georgia, and I was like, the 3 percenter. Like, we. I'm always trying to get at, like, what's bubbling up on the ground. And it was for the Circus, which was a weekly documentary series on Showtime. RIP And I had been just hearing all this chatter and, like, some, like, loose reporting about how people were ready to take up arms for Trump. And these militias, a lot of whom were in Georgia, were ready to go. Ham and I said, let's talk to them. And so we reached out and they were interested in speaking, I think in part because they were like, no, we're really serious about this. And they like the idea that they're conjuring fear in the hearts of libs. Right. That's a huge part of the appeal
- [16:30]
Alex Wagner
of being in magazine and precious Republicans.
- [16:33]
Nicole Hemmer
Totally. And just displaying their unwavering support for Trump and their deep conviction that the system was rigged. I mean, those are the people who are betrayed by both foreign intervention and the Epstein thing because they really buy into this idea, which is not entirely untrue. True, that a cabal of elites is making decisions that they have to pay for. Whether they are women and innocents and children who are trafficked for the delight to be play toys for the ultra rich, or whether they are working class and middle class boys and girls who are sent overseas and become collateral damage in a war of choice. Like they pay the price or just as taxpayers, they pay billions of dollars every week so that Donald Trump can burnish his ego. And Trump has done nothing to disabuse him of those, you know, that feeling that the system is rigged. I mean, they wanted to talk to me about the election being rigged, about media being rigged, about Tucker Carlson being in the pocket of Rupert Murdoch. Like they saw conspiracy everywhere and they felt like someone who was going to give them a platform to explain how rigged the system was was someone we're talking to.
- [17:32]
Alex Wagner
Where do you think they are right now?
- [17:34]
Nicole Hemmer
Jail? No, I mean, I don't. Some of them, I think they're involved in Gen 6. Yeah, a lot of them were former military, former cops. I don't know where they are in their support of Trump. But, you know, these are people that work working class jobs, which I assume they've gone back to. They would, on the weekends do their basic training. They all had noms de guerre and they would, you know, run around with guns on the weekend. But like they used that training on January 6th, you know, and you look at ICE. I mean, maybe some of them are ICE officers. Trump has developed a paramilitary force and it's been a multi year recruitment effort.
- [18:12]
Alex Wagner
We'll pause here for a moment and when we're back, more with the host of the crooked media podcast, Runaway country, my dear friend, Alex Wagner. Stick around, we'll be right back.
- [18:27]
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- [19:22]
Nicole Hemmer
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- [19:59]
Alex Wagner
I think it takes us to Minneapolis, where you were.
- [20:02]
Nicole Hemmer
Oh, yes. I didn't even answer your question.
- [20:04]
Alex Wagner
No, no, no. But. But, I mean, that was sort of the other side, if you will. Right? That was Citizens Moms. There are signal chat groups, men and women, old and young, who saw what ICE was doing on their streets in the killing of two American citizens. And a lot of them out there protesting for the first time in their lives.
- [20:22]
Nicole Hemmer
Totally. I mean, so I was in D.C. with Epstein survivors when they were gonna take that big vote on the Hill. And I remember thinking, man, like, it wasn't a strategy to take politics out of it. It was just like, we were abused. We were wounded in deep and abiding ways at tender ages, and we want justice. This literally has nothing to do with R or D. This has to do with humanity. And we are gonna try and keep this tent. We're gonna try and center women and their stories of survival in all of this. And, like, you would hear them talk and you'd think, okay, like, this is why everybody's gonna, like, you guys driving the bus forward with your stories of injury and resilience are gonna be the ones that actually this stupid fucking Congress to do something collectively in a bipartisan fashion. I mean, all credit goes to them. Because to survive, that is one thing, but then to be brave enough to be like, I'm gonna go and march forward on Capitol Hill and say, you need to help me do something about this takes, like, cojones. Sorry, I guess not cojones, but, you know, like, it takes backbone and, I don't know, tenacity that most people don't have. Right.
- [21:31]
Alex Wagner
Well, and the fact that there's still debate about whether or not they're telling the truth, like, how many women have to come out and tell the same story. Jeffrey Epstein. For people to say, maybe the hundreds of women who have the same tales of abuse and trafficking are onto something.
- [21:49]
Nicole Hemmer
And this phenomenon that exists in our society and other societies. But I'm just going to focus on America right now. That there are these powerful men that visit abuses that like, are hard to conjure, you know, in your mind on children. And that the society, our society, like, lets it pass or is tacitly, okay, enough with it. That the victims don't feel like they can say anything or we debate whose fault it was. Right.
- [22:17]
Alex Wagner
Like, it's like, well, they look like. I mean, with Epstein, they were a quarter to a third of his age.
- [22:24]
Nicole Hemmer
I know. Well, it was Caesar Chavez. We're talking about eight year olds being groomed.
- [22:28]
Alex Wagner
Disgusting.
- [22:28]
Nicole Hemmer
It's disgusting. And that. So, so, like, we're coming to this huge reconciliation and yet the person we keep electing is. I'm not saying he's on the level in terms of abuse of Epstein or Chavez, but is so poisonous himself and such an abuser of power and such a denier of facts and reality, and has not said anything that makes you think he has any amount of empathy for these women or victims of sexual abuse at all because he himself has been found civilly liable for sexual assault.
- [22:59]
Alex Wagner
Right.
- [22:59]
Nicole Hemmer
I have a hard time squaring, like, where we are going as a society.
- [23:03]
Alex Wagner
Right.
- [23:03]
Nicole Hemmer
Which is to sort of have a full accounting of, like, what happened and try and circle the wagons and figure out, like, how do we allow power structures like this to remain in place and then politically, like, why we are championing, like Big daddy, who's gonna come
- [23:17]
Alex Wagner
home and spank ya and women vote for.
- [23:20]
Nicole Hemmer
Exactly.
- [23:20]
Alex Wagner
I mean, I have a hard time squaring their enthusiasm for someone who describes what he can do to women as, you know, when you're famous, you can do it and grab him between the legs. Actually, I have. I now I'm Reckoning with whether we shouldn't have just said what he said all these years. Grab him in the pussy.
- [23:37]
Nicole Hemmer
Yeah.
- [23:37]
Alex Wagner
I mean, some of our editing of him, I think is how he got elected twice.
- [23:41]
Nicole Hemmer
Normalizes it.
- [23:42]
Alex Wagner
It normalizes it and it cleans it off.
- [23:43]
Nicole Hemmer
Yeah.
- [23:44]
Alex Wagner
If it were jarring, you would actually be getting him as he intended it. Right. He's a grown ass man who makes up his own. When he speaks in sentences. Sentences. When they're just grunts. They're grunts. But whatever it is he says he's saying what he's saying, he's an adult. And there's never been an adult in public life who's been more concern, consistently sort of copy edited and sanitized for political consumption because there's never been a figure like him in our politics.
- [24:07]
Nicole Hemmer
I know, and I, I mean, I think woulda, coulda, shoulda a lot with Trump.
- [24:11]
Alex Wagner
Shithole countries, all of it. Grab him in the pussy. Everything he says, it's so jarring that, that, you know, the, the smart and good and decent people on standards. You can't say that on tv. Okay, but what if we had.
- [24:23]
Nicole Hemmer
Well, it's a, I think it's a bit of a burying your head in the sand. Like it's, oh, we can't say these words because it's too coarse and our society doesn't accept that. Like we have a set standards here.
- [24:33]
Alex Wagner
Right.
- [24:33]
Nicole Hemmer
And it's like, well, like this is the President of the United States.
- [24:36]
Alex Wagner
Hundreds of millions of people don't. Yeah.
- [24:38]
Nicole Hemmer
And like this is what they want. Like they've made the choice. I mean, I will always push back against Trump when he is at his worst or even when he's not at his worst. But like, you have to understand that he is reflective of a certain kind of thinking in this country and, and has been chosen twice to lead it. So like, yeah, if he's put shithole countries on the table, then I guess we're going to, to repeat his words not in agreement, but like just as a reminder that that's the value set of that guy.
- [25:07]
Alex Wagner
Yeah. And I think Bill Barr describing the election conspiracies as bullshit is just an important window into how they tried to talk Trump down ahead of January 6th. And I, I feel like it's like what year you're 10, it feels like you're 87. And we're still trying to figure out how to cover Trump.
- [25:25]
Nicole Hemmer
Yeah, well, but that's because it's just the mendacity. I mean, we're in the middle of a War, you know what I mean? And this guy in the middle of this war, like, this boggles the mind, is trying to railroad through Congress a voter suppression act that would require every state in the union to give its voter rolls over to the federal government. Like what? Yeah, that's his only midterm strategy. At the same time that he's dispatching his top officials to go seize voter rolls in the 2020 election to prove that, like our entire.
- [25:53]
Alex Wagner
Including the DNI in what was. Now we know. The walk up to war.
- [25:56]
Nicole Hemmer
Yes.
- [25:56]
Alex Wagner
I mean, so, Tulsi, the war starts. And I remember thinking the last time we saw the national security people in public Georgia. Well, Tulsi Gabbard was at an election office in Fulton County. Pam Bondi was at a hearing refusing to turn around and acknowledge the victims of Epstein's sexual abuse and cash Patel was guzzling beer in Milan at the Olympics. That's who's in charge of protecting the homeland as we go to war.
- [26:21]
Nicole Hemmer
Yeah. And in the middle of all this, you know, Trump is interested in the more because it's politically problematic for him because gas prices are high, but really is focused like a laser on the SAVE act and the way in which he can continue to undermine confidence in the elections. Because when Democrats win the House, he's going to try and do everything in his power not to let the gavel go to Hakeem Jeffrey's hands, because it will be painful for his last two years in office. And my God, I hope they're only two. My God. I mean, I think probably on his way out, what we're going to be debating is Trump currency. You know, it's going to be like the fanfare. The ego will be in full flower and, like, Trump will be trying to enshrine his legacy in the most public and monumental ways. And, like, that will be his focus in the last year.
- [27:03]
Alex Wagner
What do you make of the Democrats?
- [27:07]
Nicole Hemmer
I don't know. What do I make of the Democrats, Nicole? I think there's some. Look, I am not forlorn at all about the talent. There's like, an extraordinary bench. And you see at the state level more than anywhere else, I think they have been disappointingly, like, there is a tendency, I think, for them to say, the man speaks for himself, like, look at this insanity. And to not propose a more viable alternative, I think that's hard to do, A, when you don't have power, and B, when you have a coalition as big. But I am hopeful that they have learned some lessons. I mean, Trump has shown everybody in American politics, like, fucking go for it, right? Like, yeah, got one shot or maybe two. And, like, listen to your gut. Be ambitious. Don't worry about the spin. Like, you own it all. Never apologize. Like, I hope the Democrats BYO some of that. Like, you know, the can of whip
- [28:00]
Alex Wagner
ass that, like, who do you see doing any of that, though? I, I, Gavin Newsom's doing some of it.
- [28:05]
Nicole Hemmer
Gavin Newsom is a master of the medium of communication. I like that a lot. I think, you know, at the state level, I like how you can be in an executive position and also have a little bit of attitude. And we've seen that governors, I think in the Senate, there are some voices that have emerged from the woodwork that are more courageous. I mean, I, I also think, like, John Ossoff made a great argument.
- [28:29]
Alex Wagner
Great, great, great gabard.
- [28:32]
Nicole Hemmer
Yeah, yeah. And the way they've knit together all of Trump's actions into a web of corruption, I think is incredible.
- [28:39]
Alex Wagner
Been a really good storyteller.
- [28:40]
Nicole Hemmer
He's been good. I think Chris, Chris Murphy's been. Great job talking to people. I mean, I think that there's talent there. You know, I just think when you're the party in the wilderness, in terms of power, it's just harder to have everybody get together and be on the same page and do something meaningful. But they are trying. And I think the fact that they're willing to shut down the government and say, this is a principled fight, we're going to fucking have it.
- [29:01]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
- [29:02]
Nicole Hemmer
Is indicative of a party that's found a little backbone in the intervening, like, last eight years.
- [29:07]
Alex Wagner
So I also think the six that have fought with him over the illegal orders.
- [29:10]
Nicole Hemmer
Yes.
- [29:11]
Alex Wagner
Like, just from the day that story broke to now. Like, being in a fight with him makes you a better politician in this time because what the base wants desperately is fighters. I don't think any of them really wanted to be in a fight with him, but from their life experiences, they thought it was important to convey. I guess I worry that they haven't done, like, the back end stuff. Like, what's their TikTok strategy? What's their answer to the manosphere? What's their. Like, you've got 65% of the country available for your message for your party. Make your party better, make your party more fun. Where is the party?
- [29:54]
Nicole Hemmer
It feels leaderless right now. Right. Which can be both a strength and a weakness. Right now, there are like, like 25 different voices that are doing discrete things, whether it's Mark Kelly and Alyssa Slotkin over here or Corey or Chris or, you know, JB or Gavin. Right. But I do think to your point, like, there needs to be some shepherd that is involved in all of this. And I think the 2028 primaries are going to be full bonkers. Like, I am a little stressed about that because like I said before, it's such a big tent, you know, and like AOC is an incredible, an amazing interlocutor, organizer, a voice. But then you also have people like, I mean, what Mark Kelly and Alyssa Slotkin have been doing is like portrait, encourage, right? So like you need all these voices, but like getting them to agree on an immigration policy or whatever, an energy policy, health care policy is going to be very, very, very.
- [30:44]
Alex Wagner
And like, only the Democratic Party views those as the steps for cons. Right? The Republicans nominated an insurrectionist. So, like, that, like, what has vexed me since 2015 is the asymmetry that he creates. Like, the asymmetry is the hallmark of politics in the sign of Trump. And to your point, I think that will still be the Democrats process. And that is totally asymmetrical.
- [31:06]
Nicole Hemmer
Totally. And I mean, like, I genuinely think that, like, if you learn anything from Trump, it's like, pick your position and then go sell it.
- [31:13]
Alex Wagner
Right?
- [31:13]
Nicole Hemmer
Because I think first of all, Trump has just broken so much shit that like, you could come in there with any idea. And first of all, if it's a coherent idea, that's a bonus. But also, if you can sell it and you believe it and you have the conviction. I do think if Democrats have learned anything, it's like, go along with the person who's going to pitch this the best, who has an idea with conviction that seems sensible, even if it is not exactly what you wanted. Like, you got to go along with it and you got to prop this person up and lift them up and like, give people a reason to believe.
- [31:42]
Alex Wagner
Like, well, and at this point, the Democrats can run on the border and the price of eggs. Yes, because Trump has abandoned literally everything. And the part of, I mean, look, I worked for two Republicans who, who really would not even fit in in this Republican Party on the issue of immigration. What Trump's doing has never been popular. No, interior enforcement has no support. What people can be made to fear are people here illegally that they don't know, that they've never met, that aren't in their kids schools, that aren't in their family town restaurants. And it's an ugly piece of human nature. But to the degree that Trump has found salience on immigration, it's about making People hate people they don't know. What Trump is doing is snatching, kidnapping, detaining and sending to, you know, other countries, people that are part of communities.
- [32:25]
Nicole Hemmer
He's almost making the argument for community bonds by, like, what he's doing on these immigrations.
- [32:32]
Alex Wagner
It's reinforced, correct?
- [32:34]
Nicole Hemmer
It's reinforced our connection to one another.
- [32:36]
Alex Wagner
Right?
- [32:36]
Nicole Hemmer
Like the guy that's like, you know, working construction down the street that, you know, or the gardener or the, the line cook in the restaurant, the straight
- [32:45]
Alex Wagner
A student in your kids class or the, or the girl or boy on their baseball team or the volleyball. I mean, all of it, all these K. And I mean, it's, it's so awful that to your point, the Democrats could pick any piece of anything that's been debated and Trump is either on the other side or has betrayed a promise on it.
- [33:01]
Nicole Hemmer
There's that, like, slice of pro lifers who will ride with him because he delivered roe. But like everywhere else, the promises he's made to both his base and those that poll test well with the American public. He's wrong everywhere. He's so vulnerable. And he's not going to be running. Right. He has someone who is way less charismatic. I'm assuming it's J.D. vance, but, like, I could be Marco. I mean, who can even know? It's gonna be like the Apprentice.
- [33:25]
Alex Wagner
I think it could be Megyn Kelly or Tucker Carlson. I mean, I think that'll be that clash, right? I mean, there's a reason that J.D. vance.
- [33:33]
Nicole Hemmer
I just threw up a little bit in my throat.
- [33:36]
Alex Wagner
But if not, why else are they in bed with Nick Fuentes?
- [33:40]
Nicole Hemmer
Because they want to be relevant. I mean, I'm just gonna say that I think it's for the money and, like, the relevance. And having the echo chamber, like, it makes me shudder to think of a Republican primary where it's Tucker Girls and V. Megyn Kelly. V. Like, I don't. Nick Fuentes, like, managing the whole.
- [33:54]
Alex Wagner
Can you imagine the primary, like, between like, Megan Tucker, J.D. vance and Marco? I think it'll be 2015 all over again, and J.D. vance and Marco will be out for. I mean, I really think that that's where, like, to the degree that I have any sense anymore of the right, I think that Tucker and Megan have a lot of money and I think they're. I think they're keeping their options open.
- [34:17]
Nicole Hemmer
That's just like a staggering thing to even really sort of bounce around in my head. But it does suggest to me, I think something that's true is not like it used to be the institutionalists. It used to be the people that were sort of like hawks and had ideas about what conservatism meant. Now it's low propensity voters, people who are outside the system and non elites. Right.
- [34:41]
Alex Wagner
Who for disinformation.
- [34:43]
Nicole Hemmer
Exactly. People for whom carnival barkers and showmen and Barnum, like, characters are going to resonate and like, if that's the future of the Republican Party, like, those voters are a product of this society in this country. Right. Like, we gotta fix that problem. Otherwise, otherwise we're going to keep getting these, like, bad shepherds, these empty vessels, these cynics in office. And that is our, like, Donald Trump is a reflection of our country and like, we own it. Like, you go abroad as an American, like, you are tarred with those feathers and like, that is a deep problem that we need to fix in the 21st century, which I, you know, I don't know how to do that.
- [35:20]
Alex Wagner
It does make covering Trump at the time that you're raising little people, raising children all the more heart wrenching.
- [35:27]
Nicole Hemmer
My children are like, I don't want them to think it's a game. Like, it's so comically bad. It's so comically villainous. They're like, what Trump do today? And I'm like, you know, let's look at this in terms of a real. It's like a real issue with real human costs. And then they get like, very upset.
- [35:42]
Alex Wagner
And I.
- [35:42]
Nicole Hemmer
It's this constant navigation between telling them what's actually happening and like, grounding it in reality and then also not freaking them out to the degree that they're like, I'm gonna get swept up in a nice raid, like, I'm gonna get sent to sea cot, you know, and so keeping it like, like, it's very, very hard to calibrate. But one thing is for sure, like, when they hear me speaking in hush tones about anything, they're like, is it Trump related? They're like, what's going on? It's just a daily saga. And they want to know what the, like, plot line is.
- [36:10]
Alex Wagner
But it's really tricky and you don't ever want them to be scared. But it is a really complicated thing.
- [36:15]
Nicole Hemmer
And I also, like, I think there's a thing too where I'm hyper conscious of the fact that I'm raising boys right. And like, they're young boys. They're not in the. I mean, they have attitudes like they're like 16. But I'm also really conscious of, because I do think, and as I think about, like, why Trump has been so successful. I'm like, where did liberalism and, like, where did progressivism sort of fail, if not in substance, then at least in rhetoric and vibes and vibes with young men. Like, how do I have my boys grow into men who can embrace, I think, better ideals, you know, about where we should be as a country and what our democracy could look like in a way that still feels authentic to them, that gives them a sense of masculinity. Like, it's very complicated.
- [36:59]
Alex Wagner
It's really tricky.
- [37:00]
Nicole Hemmer
It's really hard.
- [37:00]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
- [37:01]
Nicole Hemmer
And I listen to Scott Galloway, like,
- [37:02]
Alex Wagner
I listen to Scott Galloway. I know is. Is sort of a lightning rod. He's one of those voices, you know, in the center and on the left that speaks to all men, but especially men that don't want to model the toxic masculinity of the right.
- [37:17]
Nicole Hemmer
I'm just like, I'm gonna love the shit out of you guys. I'm gonna model a happy old woman, and even though I'm divorced, my ex husband is gonna treat me like a queen. Like, that's what we're doing here.
- [37:28]
Alex Wagner
Yeah. Happy, bonded family lot.
- [37:30]
Nicole Hemmer
Lots of love, lots of engagement, lots joy. But it's. It's daunting.
- [37:35]
Alex Wagner
It's daunting. And in our free time, right between covering Trump, raising children, it's like, how do you. How are you a radically positive force without being a toxic positive force?
- [37:46]
Nicole Hemmer
Right. Like, it's being fucking fake. Yes. I think as moms and as women is. I think I'm a. One of the reasons I love you is because you are such a genuinely kind person, but you're also not insincere about it. You know, like, when things are shitty or, like, you don't like something, you're honest about it, and that. That's the kind of person I'm attracted.
- [38:04]
Alex Wagner
I'm having an I hate everyone week where you're. Well, but you're one of the only people, like, on the boat. I'm rowing away. How much longer are we recording? You're in the boat, but we're rowing fast. No, I mean, because some weeks just suck.
- [38:17]
Nicole Hemmer
But I think that's about. It's about being honest, both with yourself and your kids and your loved ones. About, like, I'm. I'm having a week.
- [38:24]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
- [38:24]
Nicole Hemmer
It's vulnerable. And, like, sometimes I do apologize to my kids. Like, I'll scream at them about, like, something like a shoe being in the left and the wrong place. I'm like, I am a terror. I'm a Polymer. It's a lot, man.
- [38:34]
Alex Wagner
It's a lot.
- [38:34]
Nicole Hemmer
Everybody's living with a lot. Can I say, even if they're not in the news industry and they're not even engaged in politics, the 21st century is a lot.
- [38:44]
Alex Wagner
My conversation with Alex Wagner continues right after the break. We'll be right back. So good, so good, so good. New spring arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores. Now. Get ready to save big with up to 60% off rag and bone, Marc Jacobs, free people and more.
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Nicole Hemmer
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- [39:55]
Nicole Hemmer
How can I help? The IRS said I filed my return, but I haven't.
- [39:59]
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- [40:02]
Nicole Hemmer
What do I do?
- [40:03]
Alex Wagner
My refund though.
- [40:04]
Nicole Hemmer
I'm freaking out. Don't worry, I can fix this.
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- [40:11]
Nicole Hemmer
I'm so relieved.
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- [40:29]
Alex Wagner
I say that sometimes. Like I know, like, like I can't believe anyone watches the show at all. And I'm like, you and I. I'll say that sometimes. And like I know the news is a lot. Thank you so much for watching, like however many minutes you watch. Thank you. I think there's like this tension but I'm so gr. And after the election like that anyone would come on my show at all. I remember after Trump won I was worried about a lot of things, but mostly I was like, oh my God, I have two hours. I know who is going to come back tomorrow?
- [40:55]
Nicole Hemmer
Everyone.
- [40:56]
Alex Wagner
And I will never forget the people like you came back. Tim Miller came back. Mark Elias came back. My Wiley came back. There were a lot of people though who were like, no, I need to catch my breath.
- [41:05]
Nicole Hemmer
And I was like, no, no, no, no.
- [41:07]
Alex Wagner
Okay, well, call me. You know, I'll be on every day.
- [41:10]
Nicole Hemmer
Wait a second. If you go through a traumatic experience, the first person you call is your shrink. You get back in that chair like
- [41:15]
Alex Wagner
that, what it is, because you're in the park today. And I was like, oh, can I go the stroller? I said, nope, we're walking. I mean, like, that's right. But. But I think a lot of people after November were like, I'm out.
- [41:26]
Nicole Hemmer
I think you're miscalculating what you do and what the show is, and to some degree, with the Ms. Now audiences and what the best people audiences. It's like you're giving them something. And it is a group. It is catharsis. It is. That's why I think we're drawn to podcasts, too, because it's like, let's just fucking go for it. Let's get into the juicy parts.
- [41:42]
Alex Wagner
You know what I mean?
- [41:42]
Nicole Hemmer
Let's, like, let's peer under the rug and, like, people need that. Like, we're living in these. Like, there's a lot of strictures. There's a lot of, like, you can do this. And I don't mean, like, in terms of PC. It's just like, we limit a lot of our lives because we're just trying to manage the insanity. And so, like, the looseness and the comfort and the conviviality and the generosity that are such a hallmark of you and your show. I mean, it's why it's great that you have two hours because you can just stretch out, man. I know it's a lot for you,
- [42:09]
Alex Wagner
but for the rest of us. But it also. I feel like the, you know, what is. I think it's. What is it Under Armour or Nike? Like, the only way out is through. Right?
- [42:17]
Nicole Hemmer
That's true.
- [42:17]
Alex Wagner
The only way. And, like, I think because we have kids and lives, like, you can't just, like, hunker down for four years. Like, we have to thrive. These are their, like, formative years. I can't, like, chalk it up and, like, go be in a, you know, bear hibernating for four years. I also think you have to look at the right and how they thrive. Or they put on their game face. No matter who wins. An election day, joyful warriors. And a former general said that to me. He said, learn to learn to love the brawl. And I was like, what?
- [42:44]
Nicole Hemmer
It's the only way Democrat wins. And that's why Newsom has bottled something, because he's relishing it, right? I was doing his show and he was like, and these are the Trump knee pads. And it's just like, he's.
- [42:56]
Alex Wagner
He's.
- [42:56]
Nicole Hemmer
It's a lot.
- [42:57]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
- [42:58]
Nicole Hemmer
For a lot of people, but it's someone who is, like, fully in the game and happy to sell the merch. And he has a spiritedness to him that is really intoxicating.
- [43:07]
Alex Wagner
One toughness, I mean, because I think the other thing about Trump, too, is he'll avoid the people that bark back. Right. Like, you read about, you know, how to make your. Your house less appetizing to a burglar. And, you know, you have a dog, you have floodlights, and you just make it. That doesn't protect. Like, I feel like Trump is sort of like that. Like. Like, if you slightly less easy of a mark, he'll just move on to the next one because he's got Paul Weiss and he's got Columbia. Like, there's so many people capitulating in advance that, like, if you push back a little bit.
- [43:37]
Nicole Hemmer
I know Jerome Powell, he just moves on. Well, but, I mean, Newsom, I think not to dwell too much on him. He is obsessed with Gavin Newsom and keeps going back to him, I think, because he thinks he's the relationship.
- [43:46]
Alex Wagner
Yeah. Have you seen Lego Batman? They're like. They're like the Joker. Like. Like, I am not. I don't know who I am without you. Like, they're sort of in a symbiotic duel.
- [43:55]
Nicole Hemmer
I think it. It's bonus if he goes on to move past you, but, like, you got to enter the arena prepared for bloodsport every day. Like, that's the only way you tackle this head on. That's the only way you get through it, and that's the only way we as a country get through it.
- [44:07]
Alex Wagner
How much progress are you prepared for him to make in reshaping the media over four years?
- [44:12]
Nicole Hemmer
Lot. I mean, because it's not like we're in the 1970s, and it's like everybody sits down at 6pm to watch Walter Cronkite. Right. We are in a moment of, like, great, great fracture.
- [44:24]
Alex Wagner
Like, even absent Trump.
- [44:25]
Nicole Hemmer
Right. And he's seizing the media. He's going in for the kill when there's disarray, which makes it a very precarious moment. Right. Like, I mean, as someone who does stuff with Ms. Now, but also lives in the Internet podcast space with substack and podcasts, like, it's just insane moments of disruption. And so money, if you can throw it at a company, becomes really attractive no matter where that money is from, whether It's MBS funding, major media merger or the Ellison's. You know, it's hard for these companies to say no. And like, you know, none of the owners of these companies have proven any particular interest in the fourth estate.
- [45:03]
Alex Wagner
Why aren't they interested in America remaining a democracy? Like why isn't Larry Ellison care about that?
- [45:08]
Nicole Hemmer
I think they don't think of it that way. I think they think it's overblown. I think they think all the criticisms of what's happening at CBS are complete convections of the left and it's just, you know, scuttlebutt inside media circles and it's, you know, if you watch that show every day you'd get like good balanced news and it's we have to talk to more people and blah blah, blah. I mean people make justifications for anything. But at the end of the day, I mean I think some of their motivations are probably the same as Trump. They like the ego, they like being in control of 60 Minutes in CBS
- [45:34]
Alex Wagner
News, you know, but to an end, to like to destroy.
- [45:37]
Nicole Hemmer
I don't think they think of it as destruction. I think initially it's probably like the Bezos thing, right? Like I'm buying the Washington Post. I'm going to be the white knight that's going to see the rejuvenation of this media property and then they kind of get tired of it or they're not in it for the long haul or it becomes financially unfeasible and they sell it for parts. Which I think is the destiny for most of these institutions is just we are now becoming a content factory, less than a democracy with major fourth estate institutions. And yeah, it's just gonna be a content war of like who has the most content that gets the most eyeballs. Which is why the Department of War can send out videos of Grand Theft Auto spliced with bombings in Iran and it goes viral. I mean that's just, that's fucking insane.
- [46:18]
Alex Wagner
It's insane. What gives you hope? Like when you look around or walk
- [46:24]
Nicole Hemmer
around, I mean there's like so many ways to answer this. Being in Minnesota at the darkest moments of this whole Alex Preddy, Renee and good. The wake of all that and going to the house of this mom who was like, worked for this, I don't know the city doing something. She's like, I feel really guilty because I'm supposed to come home and like be with my kids because it's my time to be with them. And instead I'm on spreadsheets figuring out the carpooling situation and the grocery situation so that we can continue our network of getting food and transportation to teachers who are here legally but are Spanish speaking and maybe here on green cards. Like they had created an entire underground network, these moms and dads from this bilingual school to, to protect and shield and help the education professionals and staffers at the school who were at risk of deportation and drachmas. And I remember thinking like, oh, okay, this is a little taste of what it was like in Berlin and Germany in the 1930s. Right. Like, you don't imagine normal people doing extraordinary things, but that was what was happening so quickly without thought. And it really reminded me that we share a belief in the common good and that, like, we are in it together. And in times where that's really tested, people show up. So that gave me like a lot of hope. Right. And I was just like, I want to show up like that too. I feel like as bad as it is, the fact, I mean, Trump is. It has destroyed so much of what we thought we had built up. But I do think we move in discrete ways towards being better to each other and like, knowing how to be better to each other in intrapersonal relationships, in personal relationships, you know, how to treat someone you love, whether that's your lover or your husband or your mother or your children. Feel, feel like the generation I'm raising and the generation you're raising, like, we think about boys and masculinity and kindness and empathy. Like we're really thinking about stuff in a deeper way. I mean, I don't want to malign my mom's generation, but I just think we're newly awoken to like, the ways we can be better human beings. Yeah.
- [48:21]
Alex Wagner
And I think to their generation, it's a credit to how they raised us. Right. We're like the self improving generation. And so what we're passing on hopefully innovates beyond that. Right. Like we're, we're constantly seeking and the connections are so rooted in doing better. Right. And maybe their connections will be rooted in something else. Because I was thinking about this moment and what we cover and why we cover what we cover. And it is literally the broadest story, the broadest story that we cover is the President. And so we push everything through a sieve of what impacts the most people. And the fact that 65% of the country has the same opinion about Donald Trump. Trump is this thing that it doesn't always viscerally connect with what I'm covering. Sometimes it feels like, oh my God, how Can he be operating with so much impunity when only 35% of the country wants any of that? And, and so to me, it's like the thing that gives me hope is that so many people that take in a lot of information about Trump aren't going in multiple directions. They go in one direction. Right. His approval rating only goes down. It doesn't, like, bounce up when they, they get the facts about something. The more they learn, the less they like him. And that, for some reason, as someone in the content industry, gives me some hope. No, it sort of feels like pinball. I don't know.
- [49:37]
Nicole Hemmer
Well, I mean, because we don't focus on the goodness of the rejection, you know, like, the rejection is an informed rejection. We focus on the. The sins that are being visited on us today. Right. And there's a lot of indignation around that. But the other side of that is people saying unilaterally, like, no, we don't want any more of this. And I do feel like this time is different than it was in 2016.
- [49:57]
Alex Wagner
Ye.
- [49:58]
Nicole Hemmer
Like, I. I mean, not that he's running again. I mean, we're still good people. As much as we sell ourselves like this, all this horrible shit is happening, we're still a good people. I mean, but also, like, for better or for worse, people find hope. And I find hope in ways that exist outside of politics, you know, And I think the Mets.
- [50:16]
Alex Wagner
Oh, my baseball, right.
- [50:19]
Nicole Hemmer
I mean, Juan Soto, Francisco Lindor. I'm sorry about Pete Alonso. My children aren't as I am. The New York Mets are a source of pride. You know, deep plain facelifts are intriguing. Maybe a source of hope.
- [50:33]
Alex Wagner
I can't stop reading about them.
- [50:34]
Nicole Hemmer
You're so. They take your face off your face.
- [50:37]
Alex Wagner
I can't stop reading about them in horror and awe.
- [50:41]
Nicole Hemmer
Sign me up. And, you know, like, the discreet joy of, like, living on the most beautiful. This sounds so. I sound like I'm stoned, but the. Like, we're destroying the planet. But right now, it's so beautiful. It's like a wondrous place. And like, you got gotta, like, sometimes just put the noise on ice and be like, holy. It's beautiful in spring, you know?
- [51:03]
Alex Wagner
No, it is beautiful. It's beautiful. I love being your friend.
- [51:06]
Nicole Hemmer
I love being your friend. I really have said it so much, but I just believe it.
- [51:10]
Alex Wagner
I love it so much. Whenever. Whenever I'm like, I don't want to do the news. We'll get. Why?
- [51:15]
Nicole Hemmer
Well, girl, I got a surprise for you today.
- [51:18]
Alex Wagner
You're the Best. Thank you so much.
- [51:19]
Nicole Hemmer
You're the best people.
- [51:20]
Alex Wagner
Thank you. Thank you for doing this.
- [51:22]
Nicole Hemmer
Of course. My pleasure.
- [51:24]
Alex Wagner
Sure. Thank you so much for listening to the Best People. You can continue to subscribe to our premium service on Apple Podcasts to get this another msnow podcast ad free. You'll also get early access and exclusive bonus content. All episodes of this podcast are also available on YouTube. Visit msnow. The best people to Watch the Best People is produced by Vicky Vergelina. Our Associate Producer is Rana Shahbazi with additional production support from Query Robinson and Delia Hayes. Our audio engineers are Greg Devens and Hazik Bin Ahmad Farad. Katie Lau is our Senior Manager of Audio Production Pat Berkey is the Senior Executive Producer of Deadline White House Brad Gold is the Executive Producer of Content Strategy, Aisha Turner is the a Executive Producer of Audio and Madeline Herringer is Senior VP in charge of Audio, Digital and Long form. Search for the best People wherever you get your podcasts and be sure to follow the series.
- [52:42]
Nicole Hemmer
Why have we asked our contractor we found on Angie.com to be our kids legal guardian? Because he took such good care when redoing our basement that we knew we could trust him to care for our kids, all eight of them should something happen to us. Are you my dad now? No, sorry.
- [52:58]
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I do basements connecting homeowners with skilled pros for over 30 years. Angie the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home projects@angie.com.