Amb. Susan Rice on Trump’s “Grand Theft Larceny"

Summary

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The Best People with Nicolle Wallace

Episode: Amb. Susan Rice on Trump’s “Grand Theft Larceny”

Air Date: January 26, 2026
Host: Nicolle Wallace
Guest: Ambassador Susan Rice (Former UN Ambassador, National Security Advisor, Director of the Domestic Policy Council)

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Overview

This episode features Ambassador Susan Rice in conversation with Nicolle Wallace, exploring the urgent challenges facing American democracy, the dangers of polarization, Trump-era autocracy and corruption, and the global consequences of current US foreign policy. Rice provides a deeply informed, candid, and sometimes alarming overview of how the pillars upholding America’s values and alliances are under threat.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. State of the Nation and Rice’s Emotions

Timestamp: 02:34 – 04:02

• Rice acknowledges profound anger, despair, and concern about America's direction and global role.
  • Quote: “Honestly, like many people, I'm feeling angry, I'm feeling despair, and I'm feeling deep, deep concern about the direction of our country and our role in the world." – Susan Rice (02:34)
• She contrasts past resilience with the current, unprecedented threat: leaders in the White House "hell bent... on pure power accumulation and wealth accumulation for a very narrow elite few at the expense of the basic rights and liberties of American citizens."
• Stress on the need for active, broad civic resistance: standing up for the Constitution and rule of law.

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2. Polarization as a National Security Vulnerability

Timestamp: 04:11 – 06:02

• Drawing from her memoir, Rice explains political polarization weakens America’s ability to defend global interests.
• She details how internal division is exploited by adversaries (e.g., Russia’s manipulation of social media to inflame division).
  • Quote: “There's nothing that our adversaries want more than to weaken us from within, and we're doing a hell of a job of making that easy for them.” – Susan Rice (05:46)

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3. U.S.-Russia Dynamics and the Transformation of the Republican Party

Timestamp: 06:02 – 09:43

• Wallace and Rice lament the GOP shift, from "Russia hawks" like John McCain to MAGA figures lionizing Putin.
• Rice points to Republican acquiescence to Trump’s anti-NATO moves and China policy (like AI chip sales), calling out the “remnant” national-security wing’s silence.
• She highlights the potentially catastrophic impact if Trump acts on threats—like aggression against Greenland—and why even the threat itself has already deeply damaged alliances.
  • Quote: “The damage to NATO has already been done, Nicole, because our closest allies now know ... the President of the United States does not care sufficiently about the strength of that alliance.” – Susan Rice (09:39)

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4. Trump’s Motivations and Global Strategy

Timestamp: 09:47 – 14:57

• Rice insists Trump is savvy, not ignorant: his threats and designs are for personal power and benefit, with strategic awareness of their impact.
• Trump’s disregard for the true history and mutual obligations of alliances (e.g., NATO’s support post-9/11) is called "a lie."
  • Quote: “He is not ignorant enough or stupid enough not to know that the only time Article 5 has ever been invoked...was when NATO came to our defense after 9/11.” – Susan Rice (11:46)
• The risk: With Trump “unconstrained by law, by the Constitution, and by anything,” and with Congress abdicating its role, Rice warns, “we are... committing superpower suicide.” (14:46)

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5. Superpower Suicide: Erosion of Alliances and Global Standing

Timestamp: 14:58 – 18:23

• Rice details how deliberate undermining of alliances and retreat into 19th-century “spheres of influence” imperils the entire order that made America secure and prosperous.
• Alliances, she argues, not just military might, are America’s “superpower.” Trump’s abandonment of these is “throwing all of that away.”
  • Quote: “What holds those alliances together are shared values and trust. And trust has been broken.” – Susan Rice (15:41)

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6. The Culture of Impunity and Domestically-Driven Authoritarianism

Timestamp: 21:25 – 29:41

• Rice discusses recent incidents—like the double strike on shipwreck survivors and ICE abuses—that should be investigated as potential war crimes and tragically display a growing culture of impunity.
• Pardoning of officials, political “complete immunity,” and a refusal to investigate clear abuses are all signs of democratic backsliding, but Rice maintains these actions are not legally or socially sustainable post-Trump.
  • Quote: “These people are people who took an oath to serve and protect, to defend the Constitution...And so to them should be accountability.” – Susan Rice (25:10)
• The normalization of Gestapo-like tactics (e.g., Americans being “disappeared” from their homes by masked men) is deeply disturbing and un-American.

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7. Public Response, Resistance, and the Need for Mass Action

Timestamp: 29:41 – 32:33

• With 71% of Americans believing the country is “out of control,” Rice says the solution is mass, sustained, peaceful protest and unwavering civic engagement before dissent is shut down.
  • Quote: “The best constraint...on authoritarian evolution reaching its extreme is peaceful popular resistance.” – Susan Rice (31:27)
• She encourages reading Masha Gessen and Timothy Snyder for context on resisting “obeying in advance” and capitulation.

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8. Private Sector, Law Firms, and Civic Responsibility

Timestamp: 32:33 – 35:14

• Some corporations and law firms are capitulating to Trump’s intimidation, playing the “short game of appeasement,” but Rice warns they will be held accountable in the long run, risking public trust and the legal foundation of American capitalism.
• She stresses the entire economic system rests on faith in the rule of law, currently endangered by the Trump administration’s actions.
  • Quote: “If I'm sitting in a corporate boardroom and I don't see that, then I think I'm operating with blinders on...” – Susan Rice (36:13)

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9. Collapse of the Rule of Law and DOJ Integrity

Timestamp: 38:42 – 43:46

• Rice bluntly declares the Justice Department is “on life support,” citing its loss of decency and lawfulness.
  • Quote: “If it's not dead, it's on life support. And I have lost confidence in the integrity and the decency and the lawfulness of the Justice Department.” – Susan Rice (38:48)
• The administration’s “pure intimidation” tactics against critics, civil servants, and even ex-presidents (threats to investigate Obama) are about harassment, not justice.

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10. Election Integrity and Democratic Fragility

Timestamp: 44:46 – 47:07

• Rice is adamant: Americans must fight for free and fair elections despite the threats to cancel or undermine them.
  • Quote: “We have to fight like hell to hold free and fair elections and to win those free and fair elections.” – Susan Rice (45:00)
• Trump’s erratic foreign adventurism and disregard for campaign promises constitute a major political betrayal of voters.

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11. Trumpism’s Betrayal of His Own Voters & The Grift

Timestamp: 47:07 – 51:41

• Rice and Wallace detail the gap between Trump’s pro-rural rhetoric and policies that actually harm his base (cuts to Medicaid, SNAP, rural hospitals).
• Widespread “zombification” in the face of Trump’s self-enrichment—through tariffs, the Peace Board scheme, global resource grabs, hotel stays, and flagrant disregard for the emoluments clause and the Hatch Act.
  • Quote: “It's grand theft larceny, okay? That's what this is. He is extorting countries around the world. He's globalizing the grift and he's going around the globe literally stealing other countries resources.” – Susan Rice (51:41)
• Rice describes the Peace Board, Trump’s attempt to centralize global resource and political power personally, as “insane” and shockingly under-reported.

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Notable Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On Trump’s disregard for alliances:
  “The damage to NATO has already been done...our closest allies now know that the President of the United States does not care sufficiently about the strength of that alliance.” (09:39)

• On normalization of abuses:
  “You don't shoot somebody for being what Trump called disrespectful. So Americans are rightly outraged...I don't know what you call that, but Gestapo, like tactics.” (26:04)

• On public apathy and the persistent flood of scandal:
  “They do a masterful job of flooding the zone with so much shit that nobody can keep up. But it's our duty and our responsibility to...highlight the magnitude of the theft domestically and internationally.” (52:18)

• On the Peace Board scheme:
  "This peace board thing is not getting enough attention. Literally he's trying to make himself king of the world. He's the only person with a veto power...It's not a role that he's created for the office of the President, United States. It's a role he's created for Donald J. Trump." (50:25)

• On mass resistance:
  “The best constraint on that evolution reaching its extreme is peaceful popular resistance. Yeah, it has to be peaceful, has to be mass, but it has to happen before that space for dissent is closed.” (31:27)

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Conclusion & Final Thoughts

Ambassador Susan Rice’s urgent message:

• America is at a crossroads—testing its resilience in the face of unprecedented domestic authoritarianism and international abdication.
• Trump’s motivations, from foreign policy to border schemes, serve personal power and enrichment, corroding the fabric of American democracy and global leadership.
• Defending democracy now requires both courageous resistance—legal, popular, and persistent—and a public no longer numb to scandal and rights abuses.
• The time is now for Americans—across the political spectrum, in business, law, and civic life—to stand up for constitutional rights, rule of law, and the values that once made the U.S. an “indispensable nation.”

Final Quote:
“I'm unwilling, for one, to stand down, because I believe too much in this country. I believe deeply in our Constitution. And I have, as many of us, ancestors who fought and bled and died for the rights that we all have in this country. And I'm not going to be one to sit here and let them be stripped away without a fight.”
– Susan Rice (43:18)

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Further Reading/Listening

• Masha Gessen: On resisting authoritarianism (NYT).
• Timothy Snyder: "Obeying in advance" – dangers to democracy.

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

[Susan Rice]

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[Nicole]

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[Susan Rice]

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[Nicole]

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[Susan Rice]

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[Nicole]

Hi everyone, and welcome to the Best People podcast. This week's guest is a one woman tour de force. She served as the United States Ambassador to the United Nations. She served as President Barack Obama's National Security advisor. She served as President Joe Biden's head of the Domestic Policy Council. She's written about her personal journey to all those powerful places in a way that shares more humanity than most people in public life. Without any further ado, this is the Best People podcast. And this is Susan Rice. Thank you for being here.

[Susan Rice]

It's great to be with you, Nicole. Thank you.

[Nicole]

I think of you as sort of the proverbial badass who's done it all and seen it all. But I also think of you as someone who has written about what it feels like to be in a position of power and what it feels like to have a family divided by our politics, and someone who really doesn't just observe our polarization, but is sort of seeing what it's doing to every corner and facet of American life. And before we get to your thoughts and your counsel and your wisdom, what are you feeling in this moment?

[Susan Rice]

Honestly, like many people, I'm feeling angry, I'm feeling despair, and I'm feeling deep, deep concern about the direction of our country and our role in the world. At the same time, I really do believe that we've been through very, very difficult times in our past, and we are an incredibly resilient country. And nobody has ever won over the long term betting against the United States ability to renew and grow. But we are testing that proposition now, I think, more than any other time in my lifetime. The problem is, and this is what distinguishes this moment from the past, is we now have leadership in the White House that is hell bent and determined to exercise power in a way that bears no relationship to the Constitution and to the rule of law. And that is about pure power accumulation and wealth accumulation for a very narrow elite few and at the expense of the basic rights and liberties of American citizens. And so it's a very, very serious moment. And we're not going to get through it simply by watching the news and complaining to our friends. We're going to have to stand up together across the political spectrum, people of all backgrounds who believe in the Constitution and believe in the rule of law and insist that they be upheld.

[Nicole]

You write in your memoir about polarization being a national security vulnerability for our country. Will you explain.

[Susan Rice]

Yeah. What I was saying, and this was now almost seven years ago, that a country that is so bitterly divided on political lines, on geographic lines, on so many other dimensions, and has leaders that are willing to exploit those divides rather than try to define common ground, makes us a country far less capable of exercising our interests in defending and advancing our interests on the global stage. It's very hard to stand up against an adversary like Russia, for example, if we've got leadership and a whole segment of our society that has lionized Vladimir Putin and turned him into some great upholder of Christian values and masculine identity, and therefore creating the illusion that somehow we should be acting in a way that is consonant with the interests of Russia and against the interests of our traditional allies who share our values. So that's just one example of how the polarization is a vulnerability. Another example is looking at what Russia and China and others have done to interfere in our domestic political processes, our electoral processes. They can get on social media, hiding as bots and foreign trolls, and put forth misinformation and disinformation that's designed to inflame our existing differences, any issue that might be a point of difference or friction, and turn Americans against each other and exacerbate those differences. There's nothing that our adversaries want more than to weaken us from within, and we're doing a hell of a job of making that easy for them.

[Nicole]

And to your point, and Russia's a perfect example of how they're braided together, because I may have worked for the last sort of Russia hawk. When I worked for John McCain, it was something he cared about a lot, and there wasn't a big divide. And President Obama had a similar worldview. The idea that now one of the country's two political parties is not only not repulsed by that which is good for Vladimir Putin and Russia, but that you sort of climb a political ladder in the MAGA media ecosystem by being more and more pro Putin is such an inversion of our politics.

[Susan Rice]

And.

[Nicole]

And I wonder how you unring that bell.

[Susan Rice]

Well, I mean, let's break it down. I think you and I would both agree that there are differences in divisions within the Republican Party. There's a sort of what's left of the traditional conservative right.

[Nicole]

The remnant. Yeah.

[Susan Rice]

Element of the Republican Party that has long been strong on national defense and national security and clear eyed about who our adversaries are and who our allies are. That still exists, but it is shrinking and it's increasingly less vocal. And we have to very clearly question their willingness to exercise their influence to thwart what may be this president's inclinations that are destructive of NATO and destructive of our traditional alliances and our standing in the world. So far, they have taken a pass as Trump has dismantled every facet of our soft power, such as usaid, such as Voice of America. And they have taken a pass as Trump has sold the, or allowed to be sold the most sophisticated AI chips to China when we ought to be trying to slow down China's artificial intelligence progress, which is quickly rivaling our own. I mean, I could go on and on, but there are so many ways in which this president is taking actions that are antithetical to the national security interests of the United States. And I'm sure that at least half of the Republican caucus in the Senate knows it, and they've been very reluctant to criticize, much less thwart many of these steps. Now, we have an interesting moment now as we're confronting Trump's threats to Greenland and worry to follow through on those threats. It would be the death knell of NATO and the greatest possible gift that anybody could give to Vladimir Putin, because Putin has desperately wanted for decades to weaken and ultimately dismantle NATO. And here we would be handing it to him on a silver platter without a bullet being fired. One can only hope and pray that Trump will not go to the extreme and try to use force to seize Greenland. He's said that of late, but we also know that he can say something one day and do something different the very next day. So nobody can Rest easy. But the damage to NATO has already been done, Nicole, because our closest allies now know that the President of the United States does not care sufficiently about the strength of that alliance, the importance of that alliance, that his willing to threaten our allies for standing together consistent with Article 5 against a threat to a NATO member. And what is his response is to threaten them with politicized tariffs. So there is economic warfare, security warfare, and all of this is happening within NATO. And I don't know how we unring that bell.

[Nicole]

Do you think he understands the history of World War II?

[Susan Rice]

I have to believe he has a good understanding of the history of World War II. I will say a number of things about Trump. I don't think he's stupid. I do think he's venal. I do think he's self interested and corrupt. But he's savvy. And I don't think these threats to Greenland are coming from a whim or the rant of the week. I think he has serious ill founded imperial designs and including against Greenland. And I think we need to take that seriously. And I think unfortunately our European allies have come to the same realization that it has to be taken seriously. And I also think we have to understand that Trump knows that were he to take Greenland by force or by extreme coercion, that that would shatter NATO. And I think he also knows that shattering NATO would be a great gift to Vladimir Putin. And so were he to take those steps, I think the logical conclusion is he is doing it knowing that what he is doing is of ultimate greatest benefit to Putin and Russia. And that should give us all great pause.

[Nicole]

I mean, I guess I start there because the legacy of who we are is so knitted into the greatest generation. It has been until now, beyond politics and beyond debate to go to Normandy and honor those sacrifices. And it seems that the enthusiasm for destroying NATO, which is a through line, I mean, he's been indifferent about NATO. I mean, I remember his first foreign trip in his first term. I mean, obviously H.R. mcMaster and Dean Powell couldn't get him to publicly commit to honoring our commitments to our allies when we're the only people that have ever called in a chit from NATO. I mean, and so I often wonder if he understands why we're in NATO and what we get out of it. And the speech in Davos makes clear that if he understands it, he either doesn't believe it or doesn't care.

[Susan Rice]

Yeah, I think it's a lie. And that's nothing that's unfamiliar to Donald Trump. It is a lie. And I think he knows it's a lie when he says that we have done everything for NATO and NATO has done nothing for us, that he doubts that they would come to our defense. He is not ignorant enough or stupid enough not to know that the Only time Article 5 has ever been invoked, the only time that NATO has ever been asked to and actually come to the defense of a member state, was when NATO came to our defense after 911 and fought and died with us for years and years in Afghanistan. It's inconceivable that he doesn't know that he's choosing to ignore it and to lie about it.

[Nicole]

Where do you see our government orienting itself to deal with his rhetoric? He reiterated in Davos. We must have Greenland. He said in an interview with the New York Times. It's a quote. It is for me, psychologically. We need to own it. How are we orienting ourselves around what he said is a personal, psychological need to own Greenland?

[Susan Rice]

The reality is we, we have somebody in the White House who has a ceaseless thirst for power and wealth and who is openly justifying actions that would be absolutely antithetical, detrimental to the national interests of the United States by his hurt feelings. What is he didn't get hurt Nobel Prize.

[Nicole]

Right, Right.

[Susan Rice]

Except the one that Machado gave him. He didn't get a Nobel Prize, therefore he no longer has to care about peace. His psychology would be hurt if he doesn't get green. It's like a three year old child in a sandbox.

[Nicole]

And he's saying it like, what's crazy about covering him this time is you would worry about someone saying, oh, Trump derangement syndrome. Like, these are his words. I sit down every day and just write down all the things J.D. vance said about him. If I ever feel like I wanna. I could never insult him as brutally as J.D. vance and Mitch McConnell and Bob Corker did. And then the things he's saying about his rationale, I could never ascribe more lunacy than he cops to on the record in interviews.

[Susan Rice]

And every day it's something. And he's clearly diminishing. Yeah. You know, he sat up in Davos and I don't know, five or six times confused Greenland and Iceland.

[Nicole]

Yeah, poor Iceland.

[Susan Rice]

Never caught himself. Yeah, poor Iceland. But the reality is that we have in the White House somebody who feels unconstrained by law, by the Constitution and by anything. And the tragedy is the Article 1 branch of government. And the Republicans in Congress have decided they don't care enough to exercise their role and function and do their jobs. And as long as that persists, we're going to be in great peril domestically, but internationally as well, we are, Nicole, doing what I have called committing superpower suicide.

[Nicole]

Explain that.

[Susan Rice]

Well, until a year ago, the United States was unquestionably the world's leading superpower. And among our greatest strengths were not only our economy, but our national security, our defense, our development assistance, our diplomacy. And our greatest asset, arguably on top of the traditional hard power assets, was our network of alliances and partnerships, which is what China and Russia have long envied. No matter how powerful China becomes, no matter how aggressive Russia becomes, neither of them have ever had in Europe and Asia the network of alliances and partnerships that the United States has had enjoyed and nurtured since World War II. It is, in many ways, our superpower. And what Trump has done methodically is to undermine and deconstruct the strength of those alliances. What holds those alliances together are shared values and trust. And trust has been broken. And Trump has evinced no commitment to our traditional values, to. To international law, to the rule of law domestically, to any of these things. And at the same time, his national security strategy is essentially about retreating from the competition and indeed the pushback that is essential against China and Russia, as the two leading threats to our national security. And basically said, our priority, our focus, our sphere of influence, is going to be the Western Hemisphere. And we really don't care that much what China does in the rest of Asia, what Russia does in Eastern Europe and beyond. He wants to take us back to the 19th century, where great powers had their spheres of influence, where they could act with impunity and exercise their will and extract resources without any consequence. And as long as we have ours here in the Western Hemisphere, which he likes to define as including Greenland and Canada, as well as all of Latin America, then let China do its thing. Let Russia do its thing. So we have shrunk from a global power and a global superpower influencing and exerting events around the world and acting in a way that advances our interests vis a vis our traditional adversaries, China and Russia, to basically saying, let them have their space, and we're going to just take our space. And we don't care if China wins the AI race. We don't care if Russia threatens its neighbors. That's not our concern. And surely, except for the oil and the money that comes out of the Middle east, that's not our concern. And that's his view, and that has never been in the Post World War II international construct, how the United States has operated. We have been to our great benefit, a economic and national security superpower with an unmatched collection of allies and friends and partners that has enabled us to uphold a rules based international order that has benefited us, made us more secure and made us more prosperous. And he's thrown all of that away.

[Nicole]

I think that's right, that that's how he sees the world. Marco Rubio has a long record in front of cameras of advocating almost the opposite worldview. What do you think it is in a human that makes them reverse themselves and go along with that?

[Susan Rice]

Nicole I don't know Marco Rubio well. I certainly don't know J.D. vance well. But both of them have demonstrated a really remarkable ability to, to change their stripes. They're classic chameleons. They are very different people, it would seem, or at least they're acting as very different people than they did just a few years ago. And when people do that in the context of trying to ingratiate themselves to an authoritarian type leader, you have to assume that it is for power and influence and personal ambition. I don't know what else explains it.

[Nicole]

We'll pause here for a quick moment. When we're back, much more with former Obama administration National Security adviser and Ambassador to the United Nations Susan Rice. Stay right here. At Amica Insurance. We know it's not just what's inside your home that matters, it's who you share it with. That's why we work even harder to protect it. Visit amika.com and get a quote. Today, New Year, New me. Cute. But how about New Year, new money? I mean, let's be honest. Good vibes and vision boards are great, but getting your finances together, that's the real new you. With Experian, you can take control of your money moves, check your FICO score, keep tabs on your credit, find ways to save, and even get matched with credit card offers all in one app. Oh, think of it like your financial hype team, helping you level up while you're out there crushing those New Year's goals. Hitting the gym, booking that trip, finally starting the side hustle, whatever your new me looks like this year. So yeah, new year, new money sounds way better, right? Start the year off strong. Download the Experience Experian app today. Based on FICO Score 8 model offers an approval not guaranteed. Eligibility requirements and terms apply subject to credit check, which may impact your credit scores. Offers not available in all states. See experian.com for details.

[Susan Rice]

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[Nicole]

I watched Rubio like he was walking on a hot roof. Right after the double strike was revealed and the campaign in the Caribbean started to be covered and received some bipartisan condemnation, questions about whether or not war crimes have been committed. Let me ask you, is a double strike that kills shipwreck survivors, in your view, something that should be investigated as a possible war crime?

[Susan Rice]

It would seem to me to be worthy of investigation as a war crime or a potential war crime. I'm not an international lawyer, but I do know that there are rules of war and there is international law. And I don't know a single reputable international lawyer who would argue based on what evidence we have so far, that the second strike was legally justified. In fact, many question whether the initial strikes are legally justified. But certainly the second strike raises enormous questions that I think merit investigation. Of course, they won't receive investigation any more than the ICE officer Jonathan Ross in Minneapolis who killed Renee Good be investigated as he should be and as that incident should be. So, you know, we have a culture of COVID up which is convenient domestically and internationally. And I think that is one of the many concerning things about what has become a culture of impunity domestically and internationally.

[Nicole]

Let me ask you about both those incidents, though, because the culture of impunity is fleeting. Trump is a lame duck. He can never run for anything again. So he will be gone in three years. Impunity is fleeting, right? I mean, like anyone could run for president on the platform of accountability for everyone operating outside the laws as we understand them. Now, they could run to change the laws, but the laws as we understand them, but the laws of war have in their own book the example of striking shipwreck survivors as meeting a definition of a war crime. The conduct of ice, I mean, we are all cautious and I think reflexively protective and defensive of the mission of law enforcement. And that is a good thing. But the conduct of ICE that is happening in front of our eyes on the streets of American cities is not in any book or manual or training for any domestic law enforcement organization in this country ever. I mean, it is all insane. And I wonder if you think that the idea that there's impunity now because Trump is the president and he's pardoning everybody, even people his own DOJ has prosecuted and convicted, is creating paralysis.

[Susan Rice]

What we are confronting, you know, you had J.D. vance and others assert completely falsely, for example, that all ICE officers have, quote, complete immunity. There's no such thing as complete immunity. It's a legal fiction. But what they are granting them is political impunity. That is, first of all, extremely dangerous. But secondly, as you suggest, not going to be legally viable when Trump leaves office. These people will still, many of them, within the statute of limitations and be subject to criminal investigation. Now, Trump has exercised his pardon powers in ways that exceed anything that is rational or moral or just. And surely he will go out the door in a flurry of pardons. But there are too many people and too many apparent crimes that are being committed that will merit investigation. These people are people who took an oath to serve and protect, to defend the Constitution. I certainly think in the ranks of the military, and I hope the majority of law enforcement take that oath seriously, but apparently there are more than a few that don't. And so to them should be accountability.

[Nicole]

What do you think happens just at a human level? This has become my burning question, like, how does a human being, I mean, and Renee, Nicole Goode was a mom doing the drop off run. I mean, that hits so close to home for so many people I know still doing the drop off run. And people all over the country have become ICE Watchers, warning their neighbors and communities that there's ICE activity, enforcement activity in our neighborhood. And what is in our face is something that is not gonna age well in terms of conduct that Americans accept from any law enforcement.

[Susan Rice]

Well, Nicole, I think that's right. I think that's why the horrific shooting killing of Renee Goode has struck such a chord in Americans of all stripes. Whatever the worst case scenario, you want to ascribe to what she did, and I don't, by the way, just to be clear. But if you want to take the worst narrative as constructed, manufactured by Trump and Vance and others, what they should have done is arrested her. You don't shoot somebody for being what Trump called disrespectful. So Americans are rightly outraged that American citizens, American citizens of all races, of all backgrounds, are finding themselves in the unimaginable reality of having masked men bust into their homes without a Valid judicial warrant and seizing people and grabbing them and throwing them into cars and disappearing them, sometimes in nothing more than their underwear. American citizens, I don't know what you call that, but Gestapo, like tactics.

[Nicole]

I mean, Joe Rogan described them, and.

[Susan Rice]

That'S not who we are. Yeah, I don't care how MAGA you are. I don't care how much you were worried about the price of eggs. I don't think that Americans want to live in a country where any one of us, regardless of how many generations we've lived in the United States, how old our citizenship is, what we look like, how we worship, who we love, can find themselves disappeared out of their private homes by masked people with no warrant. That's what we're dealing with. And it needs to sink in. Nobody signed up for that. Because if it can happen to me, it can happen to you. It can happen to any of us.

[Nicole]

What a lot of people say is, it's gonna get worse, that they've just doubled and tripled and quadrupled their funding. And as we Both pointed out, J.D. vance and Trump are doubling and tripling down in their argument that this officer did nothing wrong. I mean, frankly, the other victim of this is ice. No one's going to like them or trust them anywhere. And that's not good for ICE or the men and women who work in ice, but they don't seem to care about that. Where do you see this heading next?

[Susan Rice]

I agree it's going to get worse. I think the point of all of this is to intimidate, is to quell legitimate First Amendment dissent and to make it difficult for everyday Americans, much less corporate leaders and university presidents and leaders at law firms, to speak up and oppose what is clearly a widening authoritarian power grab. But I believe that the vast majority of Americans are not interested in surrendering our constitutional rights. We're not interested in surrendering our right to free speech, to free assembly, to worship as we will, to exercise our legal right to vote. And I don't think at the end of the day, we will stand idly by and let all of those rights be taken away from us before our very eyes. And the people of Minneapolis and Minnesota more broadly, when they are peacefully organizing and peacefully demonstrating to stand up for those very rights that we all need and cherish are showing us the way.

[Nicole]

Yeah. Yeah. I had a poll number yesterday on a question, and I came up through campaigns that I'd never even seen asked before. 71% of all Americans think the country's out of control. I've Never seen the question asked, and I've never seen a number like that. But to your point, this isn't what anyone signed up for.

[Susan Rice]

No. And I think when Donald Trump says I might invoke the Insurrection act, or when Stephen Miller says he can foresee the suspension of habeas corpus, when Donald Trump says, if you vote for me this one time, you'll never have to vote again, as he did during the 24 campaign, or when he questions why we need elections, I don't think we should view those statements as idle threats. I think if there's one thing that we ought to have learned by now, it's that actually Donald Trump very often tells us exactly what he intends to do, and we ought to have learned by now to take what he says seriously. And we can't just look at what is happening today or yesterday. We've got to think through the lens of those that seem to be willing to exercise power without constraint and have the imagination that they seem to have and to prepare accordingly. And I think as citizens, what we must do is speak up. What we must do is be unafraid. What we must do is hold our leaders accountable, whether they're political leaders or corporate leaders or academic leaders, to stand up for the Constitution and the rule of law. That has benefited them and benefited us every day since the inception of this country. And that means being willing to organize peacefully and engage in sustained, nonviolent mass protest, not just in one city, not just in one state, not just every three months, but in a sustained way. Because if you look at the history of what's happened in other countries where authoritarians have captured power through democratic elections, the best constraint on that evolution reaching its extreme is peaceful popular resistance. Yeah, it has to be peaceful, has to be mass, but it has to happen before that space for dissent is closed. And I would suggest people read Masha Gessen's most recent piece in the New York Times where they talk very clearly about what has happened in Russia, what has happened in other authoritarian countries, and outline the steps that we have already been through and draw lessons from the experience of countries that have been there before us.

[Nicole]

Yeah, Masha's been warning us for a long time and correct about just about everything that would happen. Next, Tim Snyder drills down on the piece that I think we see the most in the groups you talked about, universities, businesses, law firms, and that's obeying in advance. And I wonder why you think they keep doing it. Why do you think law firms continue to capitulate?

[Susan Rice]

Well, first of all, it's not all a big law. There is some a big law that is doing the right thing. Right. And there are a lot of small law firms, God bless them, that are doing the right thing. And there are a lot of advocacy groups and legal defense groups like ACLU who are doing the right thing. So thankfully, it's not that the entire legal profession has taken a pass. But you asked why are you corporations, for example, bending the knee? And again, not all of them. Some of them. And I think they are intimidated. They are afraid that the crazy aunt in the attic, that Trump will do something to come after them. But here's the thing, Nicole. It's very shortsighted.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Susan Rice]

It's very short sighted. They are counting on the fact that the public won't remember, that the Democratic Party won't remember, that the next president won't remember. And I think that's a grave miscalculation. If they are part and parcel of the dismantling of our democratic institutions, then they will be remembered and they should be held accountable. And I believe they will be held accountable. So I hope that more companies and leaders will take a deep breath and recognize that by playing the short game of appeasement, they're going to lose the long game of public trust and support. And they need to recognize that when you blow up our alliances, when you violate international law, when you undermine the full faith and credit of the United States, when you try to assault the independence of the Federal Reserve, you are taking actions that are bad for business and bad for American companies abroad.

[Nicole]

I mean, I guess I've looked at the business community with a tragic Republican view, that they're people and that they were people who are the most successful, people who have thrived most in our system and that they would have some civic duty to not being part of destroying democracy. And I don't see a lot of people in the private sector exercise by much more than the things that impact them like tariffs or firing Jerome Powell. Do you see something different? Do you see them concerned about the death of democracy on the streets of Minneapolis and around the country?

[Susan Rice]

I mean, I can't speak for any individual corporation or corporate leader. What I can say is they ought to be worried about tariffs. They ought to be worried about the Federal Reserve and its independence, whether it's the assault on Lisa Cook or the assault on Jerome Powell. But they also ought to be worried about the erosion of the rule of law. Because our whole system of capitalism rests on confidence and faith in the rule of law, that if somebody is harmed, there is judicial recourse. And that recourse will be exercised responsibly and consistent with law. If that is lost and we're frankly on the verge of losing it, when literally American citizens minding their own business in their homes can be ripped out and disappeared, then that is a world in which no contract, no commitment can be sacrosanct. And the rule of law environment is what has made the United States the leading economic power in the world. We don't have the full faith and credit. We don't have countries willing to invest in our stocks, our bonds, our treasuries, if they don't have confidence that we are a country of laws. And frankly, that's why Russia and China don't have that same advantage that we do. And we're squandering that advantage. And if I'm sitting in a corporate boardroom and I don't see that, then I think I'm operating with blinders on and narrow. Short term self interest is going to suffer long term when the consequences of the loss of the system upon which our capitalist society has rested is gone.

[Nicole]

My conversation with Ambassador Susan Rice continues right after the break. We'll see you on the other side. We know you'll always find ways to look out for the people you love. And with Amica Life Insurance, we'll help build a plan to make sure you always can. Visit amica.com and get a quote today. El Programa Nacional de Vecas a ser de McDonald's a beneficiado mas de vieiciente.

[Susan Rice]

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[Nicole]

I think some people feel like the rule of law inside the Department of Justice is already dead. Do you?

[Susan Rice]

If it's not dead, it's on life support. And I have lost confidence in the integrity and the decency and the lawfulness of the Justice Department.

[Nicole]

A lot of people have this theory that all of this is a distraction from the Epstein files. What is your sort of familiarity with the facts. And what is your. Of the import of this story in where we are in our politics and all the things Trump's doing? Some people think to distract from the.

[Susan Rice]

Epstein files as somebody who believes in justice and fairness, the suffering of the survivors and the victims is just horrific. And they deserve the truth. And we as Americans deserve to know, you know, what happened in full. And I don't care what your politics are. If you believe that women and girls especially, should not be abused, then we need the truth. And I'm not one of these people who ascribes everything that the Trump administration does to distracting from Epstein. I think that's a gross oversimplification.

[Nicole]

But, you know, or it's also too strategic.

[Susan Rice]

Right.

[Nicole]

It's like they're not. They don't function that way. Right. They're just.

[Susan Rice]

But it's not an either or. They can be doing all of this for other reasons. That has both.

[Nicole]

Yes.

[Susan Rice]

The effect of being distracted at times. Right. So it's kind of a twofer. But anyway, I just. I think it reflects extremely badly on the Trump administration, the Justice Department, the president, that they have repeatedly obstructed efforts to have the truth revealed and let the chips fall where they may on Democrats, on Republicans, on anybody who was engaged in this behavior, because that's what the American people want and expect. Nobody should be protected from this kind of behavior.

[Nicole]

You know, sometimes I orient myself around what makes the former Republicans mad. And to hear even Chris Christie, you know, saying there's nothing normal about Todd Blanche going to interview Ghislaine Maxwell made me feel like the things that I think are crazy really are crazy. You know, you look for sort of those. Those indicators that, oh, it isn't me. It really is insane.

[Susan Rice]

It isn't you, Nicole. Trust me, it's not you. It really isn't either. It's just, you know, it's the world we're living in.

[Nicole]

Let me ask you if you have any concerns. And we talked about DOJ and Todd Blanche and their indifference, at best, to the rule of law. The norms are dead. The Justice Department is exactly as Donald Trump has always wanted it. It works for him. They're now instituting that. I mean, there are now prosecutors that will report to J.D. vance and Donald Trump, as J.D. vance announced last week. I mean, what is your degree of concern? That they'll look at you. They'll go back and look at the Biden administration and the Obama administration and all the senior people there?

[Susan Rice]

Well, they've already said that. That's what they intend to do, and I'm sure they will try. But there has to be a crime and there is no crime. And if they want to manufacture something, that will not surprise me. But when you look at what they are doing, for example, to investigate the members of Congress who exercise their First Amendment right to speak freely and said nothing different than what Pete Hegseth and so many others have said, Pam Bondi repeatedly, that, you know, members of the military are not required, in fact, should not follow unlawful orders. They were simply stating the facts in the law. And now the Justice Department is coming after them and then the Defense Department trying to strip Mark Kelly of his rank and retirement. It's pure intimidation. It has no basis in law. And it's designed to harass and chill speech, just like the effort to go after the leaders in the state of Minnesota. And people can't be intimidated. They can't be silenced, because that's the whole objective here. Once we succumb to fear and intimidation and harassment, which many of us may face, then we're losing the larger fight for the rule of law, for democracy in this country. And I'm unwilling for one to stand down because I believe too much in this country. I believe deeply in our Constitution. And I have as many of us ancestors who fought and bled and died for the rights that we all have in this country. And I'm not going to be one to sit here and let them be stripped away without a fight.

[Nicole]

There is talk from the podium, from Caroline Levitt, of an investigation into your former boss, President Obama. She describes some, I think she calls it a grand conspiracy. There's an investigation that former director of the CIA John Brennan has confirmed, similar points that you've made, that no crime has been committed. But they are looking at the assessment that Russia interfered in the 2016 election. These are facts beyond dispute as reported out and borne out by none other than Marco Rubio on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and John Durham. I wonder where you think that'll go if you think they're going to really try to build a case against former President Obama.

[Susan Rice]

Nicole, I don't want to speculate. I just want to underscore the point that there's no factual basis, there's no legal basis, there's no crime. And so all of this would seem to me to fall into the category of harassment and intimidation.

[Nicole]

What do you think happens as we near the midterms? People like Mark Elias are worried. They say, take him. Same thing you said, take him seriously and literally when he talks about Canceling elections.

[Susan Rice]

We have to fight like hell to hold free and fair elections and to win those free and fair elections. We don't have the luxury on the one hand of saying, well, they're not going to be elections, so we're not going to do everything we can to contest and win them. And we don't have the luxury of ignoring the possibility that he means what he says and does what he threatens. So we have to play both hands simultaneously. We have to make it absolutely clear that the United States of America, we have elections every two years. And those elections are meant to be free and fair and played on a level playing field. Even though they're trying to do all kinds of things, from redistricting to upending the electoral roles in various states to fighting in the Supreme Court to make the playing field as unlevel as possible, we got to resist that, counter that, and at the same time, we got to fight to win them. I believe we'll have them and I believe we'll win them. Certainly the House and maybe the Senate. We can't be on autopilot. We can't be complacent. And we have to understand that Trump has gone further in 12 months than I think most Americans could have imagined. Most Americans, whether they voted for Trump or not, did not sign up for reckless foreign adventures, for an imperial United States that seizes territory from our traditional allies, that, you know, makes Trump king of the world, which is what this border peace garbage is and has us bombing within a one month period. Syria, Nigeria, Venezuela and maybe Iran. People did not vote for that. They voted for a government that put their interests first. And they're not getting it. They're not getting action on affordability. They're not getting action on healthcare, they're not getting action on housing, they're not getting action on their utility bills or the price of food. All of that. Trump is almost like, you know, let him eat cake.

[Nicole]

Totally.

[Susan Rice]

That's essentially what he's doing by doing absolutely nothing on the things that matter most to the American people.

[Nicole]

And that he ran on. And I'm not an isolationist, but he ran on isolationism. And the political betrayal is, to me, this political story that I feel like people can't figure out how to cover. Right? Like, he ran on isolationism, he ran on the price of eggs. He stood in front of melting meat at Bedminster and said, see? All melting crap behind me. It will all be cheaper. And it was this hideous press conference on day one. Correct. It'll be cheaper. The war in Ukraine will end on. It was this hideous press conference. It was a million degrees in New Jersey. Everyone sat in it for hours. And the political betrayal, the disdain in which he holds his own voters is breathtaking.

[Susan Rice]

Well, that, Nicole, is really a vital point. He talks about how rural Americans or the real Americans and how he loves them, and yet he's cut almost a trillion dollars out of Medicaid. He's taken steps that are resulting in the closing of rural hospitals that people depend on. He's slashing SNAP benefits and school food assistance. He is gutting the farm economy with his tariffs, and yet claiming that he's the greatest thing since sliced bread to serve rural Americans. You can go chapter and verse through all different categories, but the reality is he is doing the opposite of helping people who need help the most, who thought in voting for him that they were getting somebody who was going to make their lives cheaper and easier. And they're getting just the opposite, and with a finger in their face to boot.

[Nicole]

Let me ask you one more question about the self enrichment. This is something that I think we've had a hard time covering. The grifting. There was such good reporting, first at the Washington Post and then at the New York Times about the emoluments clause. And I think we had to learn what that was. And then we had to cover someone so brazenly violating it. And then the Hatch act, which I'm sure governed everything you did. Certainly governed everything I did. People stopped covering the ethical violations because, I don't know, maybe it was the volume business that Steve Bannon talked about, or maybe it just became so normalized. But the ethics trespasses, the taking of a jet from Qatar, the taking of riches that'll never be tracked, the gifts that we don't even know about, the crypto schemes, the crypto scam, the, you know, I mean, in the first term he had, he had the Secret Service staying at his hotels. God knows what they're doing. I mean, the unbridled self enrichment from the office of the presidency. I mean, you worked in a place where I'm sure you couldn't let a reporter take you out to lunch, let alone a business person. I mean, what is happening that everyone is so zombied out to the disgusting self enrichment of Trump and his family.

[Susan Rice]

I don't know why his people are zombied out. I mean, it's there for in plain sight, for all to see. He's depriving the people of the United States of their livelihoods and enriching himself and his cronies at the same time. And I think people are going to increasingly resent that contrast. I'm getting rich and I'm making you poorer. It's a pretty easy political message. And it's not. He's doing all this stuff domestically, this board of peace where he's extorting a billion dollars out of billion.

[Nicole]

It's like out of Austin Powers. A billion.

[Susan Rice]

It's billion dollars. But it's insane for him. This peace board thing is not getting enough attention. Literally he's trying to make himself king of the world. He's the only person with a veto power. He's the only person with deciding power. He wants to stay in that role of basically until he dies. It's not a role that he's created for the president, the office of the President, United States. It's a role he's created for Donald J. Trump. And when he gives it up, he gets to appoint his successor who has absolute control. Meanwhile, he's demanding a billion dollars. Where's that money going to go? Into whose account and who gets to decide how it's spent? I mean, this is just insanity.

[Nicole]

Like, it's insane to a point where we are out of superlatives. And so you're sharp consumer and viewer of news. How do we tell that story more like, you're right. The border peace is like, like, because I think we wake up and we're like, oh, we're going to war with Greenland and Iran and we still have Maduro in New York and we're going to run Venezuela and we're going to take Greenland and wait, what's this peace board like? How do we do a better job explaining how totally insane it all is?

[Susan Rice]

It's grand theft larceny, okay? That's what this is. He is extorting countries around the world. He's globalizing the grift and he's going around the globe literally stealing other countries resources. That's what's happening in Venezuela. That's what he wants to do in Greenland, God knows where else. He literally stealing resources out of the ground and saying, this is mine, not this is United States of America. I get to decide what happens to this. Right? That's what he said about the oil in Venezuela. And Americans are just turning the page. They're onto the next story. I mean, they do a masterful job of flooding the zone with so much shit that nobody can keep up. But it's our duty and our responsibility to keep up and to highlight the magnitude of the theft domestically and internationally to use a word that is way overused now. It's unprecedented.

[Nicole]

Yeah. Can we put you on the hook to help us do that more? Lift out these things that are truly deserving of extra attention.

[Susan Rice]

I'm always happy to talk with you, Nicole, in any format.

[Nicole]

Thank you so much.

[Susan Rice]

Thank you.

[Nicole]

Thank you so much. Thank you for your time today. Good to be with you. You're so generous. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the Best People. Remember to subscribe to Ms. Now Premium on on Apple Podcasts to get this and other Ms. Now originals ad free. You also get early access and exclusive bonus content and if you subscribe before the end of the month, you'll get three months free. All episodes of this podcast are also available on YouTube. Visit msnow. The best people to Watch the Best People is produced by Vicki Vergelina. Our Associate producer is Rana Shahbazi with additional production production support from Marcy Santiago and Allison Stewart. Our audio engineers are Greg Devens II and Hazik Bin Ahmad Fared. Katie Lau is our Senior Manager of Audio Production Pat Berkey is the Senior Executive Producer of Deadline White House Brad Gold is the Executive Producer of Content Strategy, Aisha Turner is the Executive Producer of Audio and Madeline Herringer is the Senior Vice President in charge of of Audio, Digital and long form. Search for the Best People wherever you get your podcast and be sure to follow the series. Choose to lean into it. Every Mazda is engineered to give you effortless control.

[Susan Rice]

Awake Up.