Best of The Best: Joan Baez is Calculating How Much She’s Willing to Risk

Summary

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"Best of The Best: Joan Baez is Calculating How Much She’s Willing to Risk"

The Best People with Nicolle Wallace
Aired: January 5, 2026

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Overview of the Episode

This episode features an in-depth and candid conversation between host Nicolle Wallace and legendary folk singer, songwriter, and activist Joan Baez. At age 84, Baez reflects on her enduring role as a voice of protest, her ongoing activism, and the risks involved in speaking out— both in the 1960s and today. Wallace and Baez explore the deep divides in current American society, the evolution (and sometimes regression) of protest movements, and the importance of community, art, and hope in dark times. With wit and warmth, Baez addresses her creative processes, personal philosophy, and her unusual current residency—performing in a real life circus as an act of artistic and personal defiance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

On Resistance, Risk, and the State of Protest

• Risk Is Integral to Change

  • "Social change cannot happen until somebody's willing to take a risk." (Joan Baez, 01:49)
  • Baez notes that the risks required for activism are only getting greater and scarier in today's political climate.

• Rejecting 'Unprecedented'

  • Baez urges against using the word "unprecedented" to describe current political horrors:
    "That group of people would love to be unprecedented... So get used to it and drop the word." (03:07)

• Fears and Differences Between Then and Now

  • Baez compares her activism in the '60s with today, noting a shift from hope and a feeling of safety to a more honest fear of cruelty by those in power.
    • "Now it's a different kind of scared... I haven't experienced anything like this in my life." (06:02)
  • The dangers of protesting and being arrested have become more acute and unpredictable.

• Division and the Loss of 'Glue'

  • The sense of togetherness that characterized past movements has diminished:
    "We don't have the glue." (08:29)
  • Baez recalls the "high-fiving in the subway" during Obama's campaign as a fleeting recent instance of that unity.

• Self-Censorship and Fear

  • Even among Democratic leaders and artists, Baez observes a rise in self-censorship due to fear.
    • "We shouldn't be too surprised when people we thought were going to speak up for us don't. Because there's a lot of fear now." (10:13)
  • This has stifled collective action and made the risks of speaking out feel heavier.

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Coping, Hope, and Denial

• Pragmatic Activism: “Saving Fishes”

  • Baez, reflecting on the limits of personal impact, advises:
    "We may not be able to turn the tide, but we can certainly save some fishes." (10:34)
    • Each small act matters, especially to those directly helped.

• The Utility of Denial

  • Baez recommends compartmentalizing or healthy denial as a coping mechanism:
    "Denial is your friend right now. I would suggest that we all live about 85% of the time in denial, because otherwise we'll... get extremely depressed." (10:44)

• Hope is a Muscle

  • Quoting Ann Patchett, Baez reiterates that hope is not innate, but must be exercised:
    "Hope is a muscle." (11:45)
    • Despite being a self-proclaimed pessimist, Baez continues to act, noting:
      "I do this stuff anyway... it's up to me how grim I'm going to feel." (12:08)

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Art, Community, and New Paths to Resistance

• Art as a Source of Community

  • Baez highlights the through-line between her concerts and her current circus performances:
    "You sit in community with your fans. They are in that moment with you." (20:36)
  • She sees live performance spaces as refuges where people can share joy, laughter, and resistance together.

• The Need for New Anthems

  • While "We Shall Overcome" holds legendary status, Baez advocates for creating new anthems relevant to today's movements:
    "We need something new... [the classics are] too full of nostalgia and not enough to get people moving." (24:12)

• The Political Power of Laughter and Joy

  • Baez quotes Mark Twain:
    "The people have only one really effective weapon, and that is laughter." (21:01)
  • Acts of joy—like performing in a circus or attending a drag show—are, in Baez's view, acts of defiance in the face of cruelty.
    • Discussing her experience at a drag show:
      "This is what it should be. Totally spontaneous and, and totally dirty... I let your inner slut out. Congratulations." (31:08, 32:01)

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Navigating Fear and Responsibility

• Fears for the Future

  • Baez confesses open fear for herself, and more acutely for her son and granddaughter:
    "I'm more scared for my kid and granddaughter... At the moment, she's just effervescent with the possibilities in her life." (22:35)

• On Being an Example and Burden of History

  • Baez shares a behind-the-scenes memory from Czechoslovakia, feeling the weight of being "the last drop" before a revolution (38:00).
  • She notes the importance of simply showing up for others—her presence giving strength to activists today.

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Living Openly and Authentically

• Late-Life Liberation

  • Baez emphasizes the freedom that comes with age:
    "That's the luxury of this, you know, being my age. And I don't care." (42:09)

• Personal Fulfillment and Joy

  • On dancing, art, and the circus, Baez says:
    "The real reason you're put on the earth is to dance... That's when I'm happiest." (35:06)

• Advice on Remaining Open and Resilient

  • "I don't know how to live otherwise... sometimes to a fault, [I've] been open." (35:39)
  • Baez stresses the importance of therapy, self-reflection, and learning to do nothing as self-care after years of activism and performance.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the climate of protest and political risk:
  "It's cruelty. And don't just put people in cages. You love putting people in cages. And that's what makes it scary in a way that I was not scared back then." (06:02)

• On hope and denial:
  "Denial is your friend right now. Live about 85% of the time in denial... with the other 10% or 15%, go and do something." (10:44)

• On the residue of the 1960s:
  "By the end they [the antiwar and civil rights movements] were merging. But that feeling of togetherness... The glue. And we don't have the glue." (08:29)

• On joy as resistance:
  "Acts of joy are their own acts of defiance... Be the beauty, laughter, joy, and dancing." (30:37)

• Final reflection on risk:
  "Social change cannot happen until somebody's willing to take a risk. And I believe that. And I believe it's going to get scarier and scarier to take a risk." (42:49)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:49] - Baez on the necessity of risk for social change
• [03:07] - Baez rejects describing the Trump era as "unprecedented"
• [06:02] - Baez on the rise of cruelty and increased danger in protest
• [08:29] - The missing "glue" of collective action and unity
• [10:34] - On "saving fishes": small acts matter
• [11:45] - "Hope is a muscle" and on personal optimism
• [21:01] - The Mark Twain quote: laughter as an effective weapon
• [22:35] - Fears for the next generation
• [24:12] - Creating new protest anthems
• [31:01] - Joy and laughter as acts of defiance (the Miami drag show)
• [35:06] - Dancing as personal purpose and fulfillment
• [42:49] - The escalating cost and necessity of risk in activism
• [43:43] - Final thoughts on the importance of community and small acts

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Conclusion: Lessons & Tone

The episode is both urgent and warm, filled with Baez's honesty, humor, and hard-earned wisdom. Through stories, self-effacing jokes, and sharp insights on activism and art, Baez calls for a balance between brave action, community, and the necessity of beauty and joy. Wallace’s questions probe both history and the present, surfacing the emotional and tactical realities of resistance—past and present.

Listeners are left with a sense of urgency, pragmatism, and reassurance that while the risks are greater, so too are the rewards of solidarity, authenticity, and hope—one act, song, or dance at a time.

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Summary by [Your AI Podcast Summarizer]

Transcript

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[Podcast Host]

Hi there everyone, and Happy New Year. Welcome to the Best People. This week we're revisiting an episode we recorded back in September with the legendary folk singer, songwriter and activist Joan Baez. Joan has a spirit that touches the heart of the country, and at 84 years old, we're still finding her marching in protest, performing in a circus, a real life circus, and sharing the gift of her voice. Joan and I spoke about how she sees this moment as compared to the protests of the 60s and the risks involved in speaking up both then and now. So with that, this is the Best People, and this is Joan Baez.

[Joan Baez]

In all my whatever career I've said that social change cannot happen until somebody's willing to take a risk. And I believe that, and I believe it's going to get scarier and scarier to take a risk.

[Podcast Host]

Hi everyone, and welcome to the Best People Podcast. Unfortunately for us, Best People doesn't begin.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

To capture this week's guest because she's more than that.

[Podcast Host]

She's an icon known the world over.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

Her lyrics are literally the words that have accompanied everything we associate in our country's history with justice and change and all things good. But she's part of our present moment as well.

[Podcast Host]

This week's guest on the Best People.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

Podcast is Joan Baez.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you so much for being here.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

It's an honor.

[Joan Baez]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

I love everything you've done, but I especially love everything you've said about this moment. And one thing that I changed immediately is I am never going to call anything unprecedented again. You stopped me in my tracks when I read that, and I want to Go back and take that word out of everything I've ever said about this administration. Will you explain, though, why that is no good.

[Joan Baez]

Unprecedented? Well, because that group of people would love to be unprecedented. I mean, at every turn, that's a next wave of horrors is unprecedented. So get used to it and drop the word. We shouldn't be surprised by it anymore.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

Yeah. There's this piece of the Trump story that we as journalists still don't know how to tell. And it's this openness, I think we have to. New information when there are no new Trump stories. It's corruption.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

I mean, it's. And it's. So.

[Podcast Host]

It's on us.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

But I wonder, being on the front lines with people fighting for justice and for freedom, what it feels like to watch the country do this again.

[Joan Baez]

Well, I was thinking of writing it was the worst of times and it was the worst of times, you know, Couldn't have dreamed it up, Nicole. Nobody could have imagined it.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

What is it about this moment that puts us at such odds with the people leading us in terms of how we view fellow humans?

[Joan Baez]

I don't think anybody can figure that out, really, because it's so extreme. It is so extreme. There are two tracks, and for whatever it is, they can't cross over. And I'm guilty of that. I don't want to hear that rhetoric. I don't want to listen to it. I don't want to try and communicate with it. It's all very anti Quaker. I was raised as a Quaker, and you really are supposed to be open and loving to everybody. Am I having trouble with that right now?

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

I'm from Northern California. I went to UC Berkeley, and I am starting to feel like maybe I'll end up back there because I wonder how so many people voted for this. Do you think about that?

[Joan Baez]

Well, I'm concerned about my position as a, you know, some. A privileged, not quite white, but a privileged person, you know, and the temptation to just get the hell out and go somewhere that's safer than this. And then I think probably it isn't right to do. I'd rather for the moment, stay here and try to take care of my gardeners, you know, because they wouldn't have the opportunity to go someplace else.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

I think I used to worry that it was hyperbolic to ask questions about safety, but they seem to revel in people feeling unsafe. I mean, using that as a political tool is how that side has used the question of crime, and now it feels like threatening protest and dissent is one of their tactics. And I thought it was you. You've been arrested twice in your life, but you've warned about protesting being more dangerous. Now talk about that.

[Joan Baez]

Well, you know, I went to jail twice and it was all for, for aiding and abetting draft resistance. But, you know, we had our lawyers, we had a call, we had the families come visit, we had our medication. And right now, since the first order of the day for this group is cruelty. It's cruelty. And don't just put people in cages. You love putting people in cages. And that's what makes it scary in a way that I was not scared back then. I mean, there'd been a lot of places where I should have been scared and I was just maybe too stupid, you know. But now it's a different kind of scared. I don't know what to say to people, but it's really honest to say that it's not. I haven't experienced anything like this in my life.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

You've been at the protests, you were at the no Kings protest. You've talked about what you will protest for and who you will protest with. And it always is nonviolence. Do you see this moment as worse than the 60s?

[Joan Baez]

This is worse. I certainly see it as worse. I wish it weren't. I mean, I wish I could say, oh yeah, we did our work back then, we had some results, it's the same or it's not as bad. But for me, if you really can't imagine, wouldn't have imagined this back then. Somebody made this, know, this weird sci fi movie. This was happening. We couldn't have dreamed it up.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

What do you think we're missing then in terms of response? Because if this is worse, I mean, I, I went back and watched, I watched your performances at the march on Washington in 1963.

[Chorus/Singers]

We shall overcome someday we shall overcome we shall overcome we shall overcome we shall overcome.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

Your voice, I mean, I have always associated with everything I've ever seen from that day. But everyone was singing with you, and it doesn't feel like we're all singing together right now.

[Joan Baez]

Well, you know, I have some theories about that. I don't know what happens when the stars align themselves in a certain way and we have a movement, that kind of a movement. There was anti war movement, there was a civil rights movement. And you know, by the end they were merging. But that feeling of togetherness. I remember a kid was about 16 years old some number of years after the war, war was over and that. And he said, you know, you guys had everything back then. You had the music, you had the war, you know, this thing. You had Woodstock, you had each other. He said you had the glue and we don't have the glue. And I think that people were able to experience that when Obama was running for president, when he was running and people were high fiving each other in the subway. People I didn't know, it was just that, that was the feeling. And we can do this together. I don't know how you create it. I don't know how much of it kind of just happens, but I think, you know, it, it will exist somewhere if we're around that long. And it's, it's that vital glue. And then we feel as though something's possible, whether it is or not.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

I mean, I think that's the anatomy of the resistance. It's feeling together and being each other's glue, because that's the strength. And then both those moments were around extraordinary leaders. And I wonder, I've seen some of your comments about the Democratic leaders right now. I mean, there are so many talented ones individually. Why do you think they've struggled to knit us together as the glue behind them?

[Joan Baez]

I don't know. All I can say that right now, we shouldn't be too surprised when people we thought were going to speak up for us don't. Because there's a lot of fear now. I mean, we start self censoring because of the clamping down on anything, on everything. On literature, on Anne Frank. No. And especially if I'm taking jabs at all of them. A couple things that I say that I think makes some sense, and one is we may not be able to turn the tide, but we can certainly save some fishes. The other thing I have said and I think is true is denial is your friend right now. And I would suggest that we all live about 85% of the time in denial because otherwise we'll, you know, get extremely depressed. So and then with the other 10% or 15%, go and do something and when you feel as though, well, I can't do anything, it's not enough. It's not enough. May not be enough for you, but it's certainly enough for the little fish that you're advocating for or trying to take care of. It means, could mean everything to their life. So I wouldn't moan about. It's just me. I can't, you know, I'm the only one. It won't be good enough. Do it anyway. No, just do it anyway. What calls you the strongest, whether it's, you know, immigrants, Constitution, whatever. Just find the place and go do. Go be active with it.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

One other thing you said that I've quoted a bunch of times. You quote the writer Ann Patchett, who I adore, saying that hope is a muscle, I think. Is that right?

[Joan Baez]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

And that it's not just this thing that, you know, oh, let me just call up my hope. It is a thing we have to. We have to strengthen. And it sounds like all those things. Things you describe, strengthen our hope muscles.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah. Because I don't. You know, I've gone through most of my life being a complete pessimist, and people say, oh, Ms. Wyles, how do you stay being such an optimist? I don't want to say no. My glasses have to empty all the time because I do this stuff anyway. You know, that doesn't get me off the hook. I have to do what I do anyway, and it's up to me how grim I'm going to feel.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

So someone said to me, how do you not, you know, lose your. You know, aren't you at your wit's end? And I said, yeah, I'm past that.

[Joan Baez]

I mean, I'm.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

I'm just here anyway because we just, you know, we. We do what we can do with or without our wits.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah. That's assuming we have any.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

I don't need to lose.

[Joan Baez]

You're. You're thinking big.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

Is it weird to see your life, you know, sort of replayed to a new generation in film? I know I read in interviews that you saw it. I. I resisted watching. I was such a fan that I felt disloyal watching the new people.

[Podcast Host]

And then after the election, I actually.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

Watched it, and I said, oh, I'm.

[Podcast Host]

So glad I watched it.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

I became obsessed with it. I watched it three times, and I thought, oh, we have to follow the artists. The artists are gonna lead us out. And I thought it was so important that a new generation, especially in the fall last year, could see it and maybe live it through the actors that played both of you.

[Joan Baez]

Well, it certainly gave my visibility a big boost. I had called them and said, is there any. Do you want to talk to me? I kind of was there. And so I talked to different people. I talked with Pete Seeger and told. I mean, I have great stories. I told him how Pete Seeger uses a banjo to protect himself. So all these fun things actually came out in the movie. Not. I mean, you could see him holding his. I said, his banjo is there. And you say, good morning, Pete. And he'd say, I met a Man in Guatemala. And he couldn't just say, good morning.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

Was that just a creative, you know, quirk, or what was that?

[Joan Baez]

I think he didn't know how to relate to a human being. So that's how it came. Thank God. We wouldn't have had that great music if he didn't have that quirk, you know.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

But what is it about art and artists that. Is it that we cling to it so desperately at these moments, or is it that the art itself is inspired by desperate moments?

[Joan Baez]

Well, let's see. It's certainly inspired by desperate moments. I think it's also inspired periodically by beauty. I think that music is. I used to think it was the only thing that crossed all barriers and borders. And then I was working with Mercedes, brilliant and powerful singer. And I was telling that. I said, the only thing that really crosses borders, it's music. She said, it's music and food.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

Yes. Do you have the same creative process as you write poetry that you did when you've written music? Does it all come from the same place?

[Joan Baez]

I think it kind of shifts around in there, because when I stop singing, stop writing songs, it's as though somebody said, okay, and they waved a little flag. Next, with painting, I painted for, I think, 12 years. And then two or three years ago, I just stopped. It doesn't mean I won't do it again, you know. But then there's all this other stuff, and then I think you have footage of it. I joined the circus. And I joined the circus for a number of reasons. One is I'd be able to dance, which I wanted to do my whole career, but nobody understood that. So I stood in front of a microphone for 60 years. So now I'm busting at the seams, and I get to dance in this circus. It's also for that denial that I need that denial. I'm not gonna be able to function. And also because the circus represents and is everything the administration hates. You know, we've got drag, we've got strip, we've got pole dancers. We've got me. And we've got joy, we've got dancing, we've got laughter. And so it is a real refuge for me. And it's interesting. The audience is like, oh, you know, that everybody's waiting for that, too. So I'm happy to be part of everybody's denial for a little bit here.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

I think denial, though, is. I mean, one woman's denial is another's compartmentalization, Right? It's the thing, right? Like, it lets. It lets a lot of people function. I think all sorts of people are compartmentalizing. I mean, I think that's my denial that I want to believe that nobody wanted this. I want to believe the polls that say that. And I know Trump voters in California, I'm from California. When I'll ask them, are you worried about all of your friends who are here illegally or whose families or parents are will be deported? And they have. The denial explains a lot of the Trump voters that I know at least that he won't do those things. See, that's just talk. He won't deport my friend. He won't deport my friend because he's a hardworking American. He's contributing. But the truth of what he's doing really obliterates all of that denial. He's doing everything he said he would do and so much more.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah. It was the worst of times and it was the worst of times. It was the worst of times. Go join a circus.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

It was the worst of times. Go join a circus. I think that that belongs to on a T shirt.

[Joan Baez]

Thank you. I like this.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

I love it. I'll make it. I'll send it to you.

[Podcast Host]

We are going to sneak in a quick break right here. When we come back, much more with legendary folk singer, activist, icon Joan Baez. Stay right here.

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[Interviewer (Nicole)]

I want to ask about that experience of being in community with everyone that comes to watch the circus. Right. Because that feels like the through line. They're the people that you weren't just performing to people. They were in community with you. And your songs are so iconic and famous and successful that I cannot find any footage where people aren't singing.

[Chorus/Singers]

Ain't gonna let no hate and bigotry turn me around Keep on walking and keep on talking Marching up to freedom land Ain't gonna let nobody turn me around and no turn me around Turn me around Ain't gonna let nobody.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

But what is that through line about that you don't have fans that sit silently and idly to watch you? You sit in community with your fans. They are in that moment with you.

[Joan Baez]

The circus is traditionally apolitical. Apolitical. But I intend to say there's a quote from Mark Twain who says, the people have only one really effective weapon, and that is laughter. That's an amazing quote.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

It's so perfect forever, but especially now. And I think I like the things that are always right but that I can grab onto. I cried watching all of the footage from 1963. And I didn't just cry because I was so moved by you and everyone that was together. I cried because I'm so desperate for the glue. And I wonder if we're not gonna see the glue in our politics, maybe we'll find it in the comedy. But I think Trump's onto them, too. I feel like they're in danger, too. So what does that mean?

[Joan Baez]

Yeah, it means I'm scared. I mean, I look at this lovely people in the circus and I think, oh, God. I mean, they're. They're Latinos. There's drag, there's all that stuff and all of it. I think this engine that is rolling now is absolutely terrifying. I mean, I did Amnesty International and human rights work in Chile and Argentina, Brazil and Czechoslovakia, all the places that have been through military dictatorship. And that's what we're heading for. We're almost there.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

Are you scared for yourself?

[Joan Baez]

Yes, yes. I'm more scared for my kid and granddaughter. And I ask people, what do you say to your kids and your grandchildren? They say, nothing, because why take away that dream? At the moment, she's just effervescent with the possibilities in her life, and there isn't any point in me trying to argue that away. If it comes to that, she'll figure it out on her own.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

I have two kids, and I keep thinking, maybe they will eradicate measles a second time. You know, maybe they'll become doctors or health workers here. Maybe they will. You know, I grew up when Americans went and taught other countries how to do democracy. You know, maybe they will be the people that teach us how to do it here.

[Joan Baez]

That's how I feel about my granddaughter. Yeah, right. Certainly. Yeah. I mean, we can't really. We're doing everything we can, but the big walloping glue. Change is really going to come from another generation, I think.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

What is the need for a new anthem? And I know you have a new One in a Million is the new song, right?

[Joan Baez]

Well, there are two. The other one is. I think you probably saw it, Mietta, at a demonstration. It's. I carried the flame. Let it always be said when you.

[Chorus/Singers]

Speak of my name I carry the.

[Joan Baez]

Flame I carry the flame Let it always be said when you call out my name I carry the flame. I mean, We Shall Overcome is the most beautiful protest song in my mind it's ever written. And we need something new because it's so easy, but because it's easy to write everybody off, they say, oh, yeah, they did that about 50 years ago. That's done. It's too full of nostalgia and not enough to get people moving. In my mind, not everybody agrees with that.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

I mean, I saw you compliment Bruce Springsteen for using his platform for good. He's about as big as it gets. Do you think fear explains why people sort of underneath. And Dave Matthews is using his platform every time he speaks. There's a handful, but you can count it on one hand. It doesn't feel like the solidarity and the association that music had with the fight for rights and peace and freedom.

[Joan Baez]

And a lot of the. A lot of. I mean, the Live Aid sort of structure. I used to tease about it. Cause I'd say the only risk about Live Aid was to not get asked.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

It was to be snapped.

[Joan Baez]

You're not exactly putting your life on the line there, you know, so that's always a question of how deeply somebody is involved. Like Pete Seeger was all the way. You know, he's 6 foot 4 and it was already in it over his head. And then others, you know, a couple of them, I won't name names, but one of them, really good person, multimillionaire back then, and always would say, I really want to do something. I really want to do something. I want to take a risk. This year, and he never did. You know, it's too scary, too scared or. I mean, I don't know. I've never had that kind of money, but probably when you get in that echelon, you're afraid of losing any of it.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

I think, like, I wonder what's happening. And I'm an ex Republican, and I don't understand why businesses don't think they have a skin in the game of remaining a democracy. There is no autocracy in the world where the economy is thriving, none. And so I think if I hadn't arrived at where I've arrived as an ex Republican, I might not even be curious about this. But I'm curious why everyone thinks someone else will save our country from becoming something other than a democracy.

[Joan Baez]

Well, the first thing coming to my mind is one of Elon Musk's little puppet people on TV saying, we got to get over this dictator phobia. So that's one pocket. That's one pocket. And it's what's really evolving now. People are getting over their dictator folk, or they didn't even know what it was. And they won't. I mean, if you're neutral during this time, you can get away, get away with your life doing pretty much what you want to do. Just don't cross any lines.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

But what's the bet that you won't have a kid that tweets something that offends someone associated with the party in power? That you won't have an employee who has a relative who.

[Joan Baez]

I mean, they're all different. I mean, they're all of the above, you just said. And the self censorship. Don't let me get too grim, because it's not health. It's not healthy for everybody.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

It's not good for anybody. So how do you beef up then? The hope muscles? What do we need? What do we do? How do we juice up the other side of the equation where we think that something will glue us together, a leader will emerge, and we will be in this fight in time to save this country we love.

[Joan Baez]

All I can say is how I stay afloat. I have a friend, a Turkish friend, close friend. She's been living in a dictatorship forever now. And she had the only progressive newspaper that still existed as time went by. And I called her the other day, I said, help. And I said, why are you not in jail? She said, because I'm very clever. I'm not that clever. But she has walked that line. She gets very depressed, you know. Cause Turkey is this wonderful place, beautiful. And it's been diminished one thing after another. But it remains to be seen if I can be very clever.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

I think it's a good bet that you can be very clever. What do you listen to? Do you still immerse yourself in music? Are there new artists that you're drawn to?

[Joan Baez]

You know, it depends on what I want to do that day. This morning, I wanted to dance a little in the morning, and I put on Jimmy Cliff.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

Nice.

[Joan Baez]

Of course, he is so heartbreaking to me because it's so beautiful a certain way. So I danced to that and then, see, I had on Renee Fleming the other day. Beautiful, because it's so beautiful. So beautiful. And I put her on periodically. I listened to the Gypsy Kings. Somebody said, oh, the old Gypsy Kings. I said, yeah, the old Gypsy Kings. They're the best of that music for me. I have a dance group online once a week, and we just do salsa. I love it.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

Yeah. My daughter likes this kids band called the Wiggles, and the best member is a former salsa dancer. And they just move. I mean, salsa is so sexy. Yeah.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah, it is.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

What is the answer for a society in the arts? I mean, what is the best argument for saving the arts if you want to save a society? To me, this is one of the distinctions this time. That that side is pursuing the arts, that they know that, too, that they're pursuing the Kennedy. What are the bright spots? I mean, a lot of artists said, no, I will not perform there for him. As sort of, you know, puppets for the state or artists for the state. Do you see some, you know, like, pulse and signs of life and things that give you hope inside the arts? I mean, because artists are uncompromising. Most artists start out dirt poor, and if they don't become famous, it is their art that sustains them. Many. Are you seeing some things that inspire you from other artists.

[Joan Baez]

Aside from Bruce Springsteen? I think, you know, I think I'm not waiting for somebody to be political.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

Yeah.

[Joan Baez]

I think I have to do receiving the beauty of the art, like Brene. But just to me right now, it has to be the beauty and the laughter and the joy and the dancing. So, you know, when I can support that or be that, then I do. I guess part of it is I don't wait for much because it may not happen.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

And you said that these acts of joy are their own acts of defiance. So you talked about being at a drag show in Miami. Talk about that.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah, this great drag queen, Breakfast in Miami. And I started dancing with one of them. She was huge. So I was just, I'm about the size of a peanut now, so I look really tiny. But I was doing this great dancing where then she kind of said, like, you know, you go dance. So I went dancing along the thoroughfare, all these tables. People started stuffing dollar bills in my, you know, in my belt. I thought, you know, this is what, this is what it should be. Totally spontaneous and, and totally dirty. You know, I had, I had one friend who was so horrified. She said, what's this going to mean to Jasmine, my granddaughter? Well, Jasmine was the one who got me there. And then I talked to one of my clever past therapists. She said, oh, you let your inner slut out. Congratulations, Cynthia.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

I mean, that's what all that anyone wants to see is Joan Baez's inner slut.

[Joan Baez]

I was happy watching it. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

My conversation with Joan Baez continues right after the break. Stay with me us.

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[Interviewer (Nicole)]

What is it like to have so many people know of you? But I imagine you don't want everyone to know the real you. What is it like to have been to be famous for so long?

[Joan Baez]

Well, you know, what comes to my mind first is that there's been more of the real me dancing in the circus than a sense than there's a real me who does politics. There's a Real me who does the art. There's a real me who sings. There was another story. There's a German medium. Somebody says, you gotta talk to this guy. So I met him, and I gave him all the appropriate. Whatever he needs to do his work. And he came to a concert, and after the concert, he brought this big chart out. So he's holding the chart, and he says, and then I look into the chart to see more about you. But the energy hit me in the face, so I went in the sideways, and I looked that way. And then he says, I know this, that you were put on the earth to sing, put on the earth to do activism. Put on the earth to. There was another one. He said, but the real reason you're put on the earth is to dance.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Joan Baez]

And I love that. That's when I'm happiest. Well, I think I really want to say, yoo hoo, guys. I do this too. And I get a chance to do that. I'm 80 fucking 4 years old. There was never too late.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

I love that so much. I'm sitting here thinking, how do I bottle her up? How do we bottle you up?

[Joan Baez]

I don't know. Come to the circus.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

What is your advice for living an open life, right, where you're still open, you're still asking the medium, you know, what does the chart say?

[Joan Baez]

Well, I don't know how to live otherwise. No. That I've always, sometimes to a fault, been open. I wonder how much of that I was trying to get people to understand me, but people. But I couldn't. I mean, for those first years, I was busy having stage fright and being political, and I couldn't enjoy myself on stage. And then, little by little, as years went by, had the appropriate therapy, I got more and more able to. To enjoy myself, to share the music and not worry about saving the world.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

What do you remember most about sort of the. The. The most famous moments of your life? I mean, do you remember what the weather was like and what it smelled like and what your day was like the day that you sang? I think It's August of 1963.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah, it was very hot. And everybody said, oh, Marlon Brando's here and he has a cattle prod. I mean, it's something nobody's gonna know about. So I think. I think about the other times people don't know about. You know, in Czechoslovakia, before the communists were overthrown, and. And I met one of the dissidents then who ended up being president. And that moment, to me, where we were in a concert hall national television was filming this whole thing. He was a dissident, wasn't supposed to be there. We'd gotten him up in the balcony so the police would have a hard time getting there. They turned the cameras off and they turned the sound off. So I was stuck there and I sang Swing Low, which is a, you know, acapella to him. And then within the next few months, the, the communists had fallen in a non violent revolution. And I was credited with being the last drop, you know, in that chalice before, before the revolution. That to me is one of the highlights of my life that people don't know as much about because mostly they see me in Dr. King, which was wonderful being with him.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

So did you know in the moment that you're singing that, that you could be that what you've become to history, to that country's history?

[Joan Baez]

You mean like Czechoslovakia in August? I think I was pretty young really, comparatively speaking. And I think you can kind of tell when something is gonna be historic, you know, like that, that march that day, or flying over Woodstock and looking down thinking, oh my God, it's not an anthill. Those are people, things like that. But one's own importance is hard to judge and better not to think about. You know, just do what you do to the best of your ability and try, you know, as a star, try to avoid the pitfalls of that. Try. Somebody comes and talks to you, realize how important it is for them to tell their story. Although I had a great T shirt somebody gave me, saying, please don't tell me your story, that's great. I said, oh man, that's great. And he proceeded to tell me a story about how he got the T shirt.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

When you're asked though, to come and lift up a protest now, like no Kings or Mayday or others, is that a burden or do you feel like there's something you can pass along to help the activist movements today? Like how do you carry that when people so desperately want you to be part of this movement now?

[Joan Baez]

Well, sometimes I just show up because I know that that is heartening to them. I mean, I hear it when they're passing each person. It seems, you know, above a certain age, that it has meant something to them. And for that I'll just be there. And we had a wonderful one that went 17 miles along, not the highway, but close to a highway. And it's magnificent when that's there and that's happening and it's part of what needs to happen.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

I mean, to your point of showing up and not knowing what the drop will be. I'm not someone who thinks that none of it matters. In this moment. I feel like it all matters. Everything matters.

[Joan Baez]

I agree with you.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

Because you don't know.

[Joan Baez]

I absolutely agree. Yeah, I totally agree with that. That it all matters. I'm not there visually, the way I have been in the past. No, I'm at the circus. Maybe one of the marches going on. I'll take the circus. But, yeah, when I come home, some pretty cranked up after two nights of performances. Then there's this time, and I look at my roses and I force myself to rose's level and do the things around the house to keep me there. And I'm learning how to do nothing, which I worked on for 80 years. It's hard for me because I'm on output all the time.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

I can't picture it. What does doing nothing look like?

[Joan Baez]

Well, let's see. A couple days ago, I sat on a couch and I read some Atlantic.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

Good.

[Joan Baez]

I love them. Yeah. And I didn't go in the art studio, and I didn't start writing poetry. Those are the big ones because those are where I go immediately. So. Yeah. And, you know, I have a pool. More important, I have a creek. And it's just my life down there. It's barely walkable. I'm gonna get ski poles, which I hate. They look like some ancient bird washer, you know? So I'm going down the creek with these things slipping and sliding on the rocks. But the creek, it totally revives me. It's like a little baptism every. Every time I go. And I like incense. I like so much incense, they can smell it miles down the creek. Just trying to, you know, revive. And there are a couple places still. They're high enough and it's coming strongly enough that I can just do a little breaststroke. And it's important.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

Do you feel like you're in the. I don't give a fuck what anybody thinks about me. Years of your life.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Joan Baez]

That's the luxury of this, you know, being my age. And I don't care.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

You know, I just watched the documentary about the Ed Sullivan show on Netflix and of course, knew who Ed Sullivan was, but I didn't know about how personally involved he was in bringing all the acts that he saw and loved in Harlem to the airwaves of CBS and fighting for them. If anyone tried to censor them or boycott him. You know, I think a lot about the privilege and the responsibility of having a platform, albeit just in news. Right. I mean, what is the importance of taking risks if you can and if you believe.

[Joan Baez]

And all my whatever career I've said that social change cannot happen until somebody's willing to take a risk. And I believe that. And I believe it's going to get scarier and scarier to take a risk. Those are things I have to figure out about risk because I always been willing to take it. You know, does my taking a risk, you know, it's affect my son, my granddaughter and so on. I would love to say, you know, damn, you know, damn the torpedoes, I'll do whatever I want to do. And it's very stifling to me to not be able to just say that because that's where my heart is, you know.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

Are you optimistic in this moment that enough people will at least stand together and find community and be glue for each other for whatever comes to pass?

[Joan Baez]

I think that but gluing and finding each other is really, really important. And I also adhere to that. We may not be able to turn the tide, but we can save some fishes. To get involved in those organizations and groups that are busy saving fishes, whatever the group is, back it up. I'm not going to say, I mean back in the day I would say to students, college students, yeah, quit. Go get involved in real life and think it was right to say back then and now a little scary.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

But we can, but we can save the fish.

[Joan Baez]

We can save the fish. Bunch of them jump by us.

[Interviewer (Nicole)]

It's a privilege and an honor to get to talk to you. Thank you so much.

[Joan Baez]

This is my privilege. Thanks, Nicole.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you so much for listening to the Best People. You can continue to subscribe to our premium service on Apple Podcasts to get there. This and other Ms. Now podcasts ad free. You'll also get early access and exclusive bonus content. All episodes of this podcast are also available on YouTube. Visit Ms. Now. The best People to Watch this episode of the Best People was produced by Franny Kelly, Vicki Verdolina and Senior producer Lisa Ferry. Our Associate producer is Rana Shahbazi with production support from Delia Hayes and Ann Gimble. Our audio engineers are Bob Mallory, Greg Devens II and Hazik Bin Ahmad Faret and Bryson Barnes is the head of audio production. Katie Lau is our senior Manager of audio production. Pat Berkey is the senior Executive producer of Deadline White House. Brad Gold is the Executive producer of Content strategy. Aisha Turner is the Executive Producer of audio and Madeline Herringer is Senior Vice President in charge of audio, digital and long form search for the Best People wherever you get your podcast and be sure to follow the series.

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