Best of the Best: Yes, Robert De Niro is Talking to You

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Best of the Best: Yes, Robert De Niro is Talking to You"

The Best People with Nicolle Wallace
Aired: April 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Nicolle Wallace sits down with legendary actor Robert De Niro for a candid, urgent conversation about the state of American democracy amid the continued influence of Donald Trump. The dialogue explores personal responsibility, the dangers of political complacency, and how courage and collective action can reclaim the country’s core values. De Niro, known for both his art and public advocacy, discusses why speaking out has become unavoidable, what he expects from leaders and citizens alike, and his view that the stakes have never been higher. The discussion, raw and reflective, also delves into cultural and psychological underpinnings of current American politics and the vital role of resistance.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Call to Stand Up for America

• De Niro opens with a call to action:

  “Everybody has to get out there. Every way possible, they have to get out there. This is it. This is our country... I want my country back. I don't want everybody going around with their American, the MAGA, with the American flags like they're the only ones. We are the Americans too. And I think there are more of us. No, I don't think. I know there are more of us because we believe in what's right and wrong. Empathy, kindness, bringing the country together, not dispersing it.” [00:58]

2. Political Realignment and Speaking Out

• Wallace and De Niro discuss how the political environment has forced unlikely alliances as people with shared values find each other across traditional divides.
• De Niro insists silence is not an option:

  “I don't see how I can't do or say something about this and be part of the opposition because it's just insane.” [02:26]

3. Trump and the Culture of Fear

• De Niro describes Trump as “sadistic,” “mean,” and a “bully,” expressing disbelief at how the Republican Party enabled him.
• He recounts Trump's use of intimidation—at rallies and in public rhetoric—as fundamentally un-American.

  “You're bound to create bad situations by doing that. That's not a person who cares about everybody, is trying to unite everybody. You're trying to divide everybody.” [07:04]

• Wallace and De Niro agree that displays of genuine courage—by public figures or ordinary citizens—are contagious and necessary to defeat intimidation.

  “Intimidation. You have to be. It's like what Jason Crow said. He said courage is infectious or contagious or whatever. And that was so important... courage is the same also.” [13:31]

4. The January 6th Insurrection and Consequences

• The conversation turns to the Capitol riot and the emotional and physical toll on law enforcement like Michael Fanone.

  “You give an oath. You have to honor that. You don't honor that, people aren't going to forget all these people and what they've done.” [11:35]

5. Challenges of Speaking Out in Hollywood and Business

• Wallace asks why more powerful people, from Hollywood to Silicon Valley, don’t take a stand.
• De Niro marks a loss of integrity—and the demoralizing effect—when influential figures or corporations capitulate out of fear.

  "What does Jeff Bezos need? What more does he need? The only thing he needs is integrity and he lost his integrity by doing that. You got to stand up..." [17:26]

6. Hope, Shame, and Mobilization

• Both Wallace and De Niro reject “hope” as a strategy, noting repeated disappointments. Instead, they see “shame” as a motivator and praise ordinary citizens standing firm in places like Minneapolis.

  “I don't use the word hope anymore, because we hoped with Mueller, we hoped with this, we hoped with the election, we hope with everything, and it doesn't work.” [19:02]
  “If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.” [35:35]

7. The Stakes of the Next Elections & Threats to Democracy

• De Niro warns that Trump will not leave office willingly and insists that the danger he presents is not hyperbole.

  "He ain't leaving. No. No way... He will not leave. It's up to us to get rid of him." [20:08]

• Reminds listeners that peaceful, visible resistance is both necessary and effective.

8. Cultural Reflections—Role of Art, Media, and Respect

• De Niro reflects on his career, leadership (like Obama), and how portrayal of "toughness" in art contrasts with Trump’s brand of bravado.

  “Listen, I'm not a tough guy. I played them... I'm a concerned citizen, period.” [27:05]

• The importance of using economic and cultural influence to push back against capitulation and defend truth—highlighting the role of comedians, journalists, and artists.

9. Historical Parallels and Dangers Ahead

• De Niro invokes lessons from history and literature ("How Democracies Die," "On Tyranny") to warn about the normalization of authoritarian behavior and neighbor-against-neighbor suspicion.
• He suggests that failure to resist now will have consequences that reach every level of society:

  “It trickles down to everyday life, little communities.” [38:48]
  “There's no rule of law. There's no equanimity. That's what we're talking about.” [39:09]

10. The Imperative to Unite and Uplift

• Wallace asks why De Niro always lifts up those around him:

  “You have to bring them together, period. You can't divide people. You can't win that way. It's a no win situation. And look what we have. Look who we have there.” [41:55]

• The discussion closes with De Niro’s urgent mantra:

  "You have to resist, resist, resist, resist. There's no easy way. It's not going to come to you easy. You know, there's a time when you know in your own life and your own survival, you better do this, better jump and run through the fire. Because if you don't run through the fire, you're not getting out. And that's what we have to do." [42:43]

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On standing up for democracy:
  “Everybody has to get out there. Every way possible, they have to get out there. This is our country. You know, I want my country back.” – Robert De Niro [00:58 & 22:20]
• On facing intimidation:
  “You have to be...courage is infectious...people have to say, wait a minute, I saw that person. They were courageous...That gives me the courage because I know that's what the right thing to do is.” – Robert De Niro [13:31]
• On Trump’s leadership:
  "He's cruel, he's mean, he's sadistic...I never thought we would experience [this]...I just don't understand it." – Robert De Niro [04:52]
• On hope and shame:
  “I don't use the word hope anymore...but maybe it's replaced by shame.” – Nicolle Wallace [19:02] “You should be ashamed. And there are the law firms that didn't capitulate. So we're proud of them.” – Robert De Niro [19:26]
• On personal responsibility:
  “If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.” – Robert De Niro [35:35]
• On the risks of silence:
  "There's no such thing...the tech Bros...they're the ones that should be setting the example for us." – Robert De Niro [35:44]
• On the attack on culture:
  "Colbert is one of the beacons, right? Speaking truth to power, even though it has somehow cost him his job...And that's the only way—people have to start thinking that way about what they're going to stop buying." – Robert De Niro [27:48]
• On the long view of history:
  “This is not what I want to be doing. Those guys don’t know how lucky they are. Some people even go along with it and like it...but even they would be affected down in the long run.” – Robert De Niro [38:42]
• On the essence of leadership:
  "You have to bring them together, period. You can't divide people. You can't win that way. It's a no win situation." – Robert De Niro [41:55]
• Parting rallying cry:
  "You have to resist, resist, resist, resist. There's no easy way. It's not going to come to you easy...You better do this, better jump and run through the fire. Because if you don't run through the fire, you're not getting out. And that's what we have to do." – Robert De Niro [42:43]

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Segment Timestamps

• Opening rally & political urgency – [00:58]
• Origins of De Niro’s outspoken stance – [02:26]
• Trump’s intimidation & Republican complicity – [03:52] to [04:44]
• January 6th and Michael Fanone – [11:02] to [12:30]
• Hollywood, business, and fear – [17:01], [17:26]
• Rejecting hope and embracing shame – [19:02]
• The danger of normalization – [20:08], [39:09]
• Role of protest and civic courage – [21:15], [24:33]
• Presidential Medal of Freedom, cultural meaning of ‘toughness’ – [25:20] to [27:39]
• Media, artists, and resistance – [27:48]
• Historical parallels, neighbor surveillance, normalization – [37:28]
• Unifying America and De Niro’s leadership style – [41:05]

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Conclusion

This episode features a stirring, unfiltered conversation that draws on Robert De Niro’s decades of moral and artistic gravitas. The message is urgent and clear: American democracy’s survival depends on citizens recognizing the threat, resisting intimidation, demanding courage from their leaders and each other, and recommitting to collective decency. As De Niro puts it, "You have to bring them together, period. You can't divide people. You can't win that way." The episode serves as both a warning and a rallying cry to those determined to reclaim and redefine the soul of the nation.

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Transcript

[Interviewer]

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[Robert De Niro]

T mobile.com for details everybody has to get out there. Every way possible, they have to get out there. This is it. This is our country. You know, I want my country back. I don't want everybody going around with their American, the maga, with the American flags like they're the only ones. We are the Americans too. And I think there are more of us. No, I don't think. I know there are more of us because we believe in what's right and and wrong. Empathy, kindness, bringing the country together, not dispersing it.

[Interviewer]

I shouldn't be here. This shouldn't be happening. I shouldn't even get to meet Robert De Niro. But in this moment, for our country, in this moment in our politics, we get to row in the same direction towards something better, towards something brighter, toward a healthier state for our democracy. Without any further ado, this is the best people. And this is the iconic, the legendary, the incredibly kind and generous Robert Dinero. Thank you. Thanks for doing this.

[Robert De Niro]

Happy to.

[Interviewer]

I've been a fan forever and I really mean that. I shouldn't get to meet you or know you, but because we find ourselves aligned in this existential struggle for the future of our country, we get to talk about that.

[Robert De Niro]

Yep.

[Interviewer]

And I wonder if you've seen things realign in your own life because of this moment in our politics.

[Robert De Niro]

Yeah. You run into people like you. I mean that we normally would not. And you do find yourself aligned with people because there's a common interest, a common goal, a common need to defeat what's happening in this country. It's so blatant and scary and this is not what I want to be doing at my age. But I don't see how I can't do or say something about this and be part of the opposition because it's, it's just, it's insane.

[Interviewer]

You've seen the Trump story so clearly from the very beginning. Is that from knowing him as a New Yorker?

[Robert De Niro]

No, I don't know. But you never took him seriously as a New Yorker. He was a guy, you know, real estate, young man, kid on the make. But it was all, I mean, people I knew who from different walks of life in New York never took him seriously. Listen, there's a word that I read in a column in the paper, castocracy. And it's like I said, this must be some made up name or something. But it's derived from the Greek meaning a crazy ocracy, but of a regime or a person who's running the regime. It's totally crazy. People who should not be there. And that's. So it's a cacistocracy, if you will.

[Interviewer]

I like that. I think people were late to call it what it was. Right. Like they wanted to make it normal because the brain can't process whatever this is. And I feel like you never did that. Right. You always sort of called it the way you saw it. Do you wonder, right, Like, I feel like we wouldn't be here if the Republicans at the beginning had said, like, get out of here, this guy's nuts.

[Robert De Niro]

They had the opportunity, they had it. When he did the first impeachment, the second one, I mean, I understand tribalism, you stick with your own and all that. You don't want to, but this is way, way, way more serious. McConnell had the chance, he blew it. It's. I don't understand, I don't understand people like J.D. vance, who. He made a complete about face. Well, how do you reconcile that? I don't understand it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. J.D. vance, who once called Trump America's Hitler.

[Robert De Niro]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You're a student of the human condition. What do you think explains that conversion?

[Robert De Niro]

I don't know. There are historical parallels, of course. I became more aware of quotes of Plato, Socrates, this and that, of things that. These things, this is not all new to us. And with Trump, he's cruel, he's mean, he's sadistic. You see what he does with the whole ICE thing. So it's a thing that I never thought we would experience. As far as other people who are around him, Republicans who won't do anything. I don't understand. I just don't understand it.

[Interviewer]

We talked last week about Minneapolis being one of the first new characters in the 10 years that we've been talking about and covering Trump. The city, across race, across age, across partisanship, has stood up to him. Do you think that is a sign of the people of Minneapolis feeling like, hey, the Republicans aren't going to say anything. The Democrats haven't been able to save us, we got to save ourselves?

[Robert De Niro]

I don't know. I don't know what Minneapolis is about, but it has a tradition of saying, wait, we're not going to be messed with in this way.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Robert De Niro]

Because they are fighting back and still fighting back, as they should. God bless them. They really are standing up and saying, we won't stand for this. And it also happened with George Floyd.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Robert De Niro]

So there's a tradition there. Maybe. I don't know. But whatever it is, it's really good and important because there has been backing off by them, and that's sadly what has to be done in order to get them to back off.

[Interviewer]

Because Trump likes to create the conditions of fear so that his dominance is easy. He doesn't actually get in the ring and have difficult fights. He likes to rule by fear.

[Robert De Niro]

Yes. And it's the people around him that say things that he goes, yeah, okay, I'll do that. That's what I'm assuming. You know, he just, he might not have even come up with the idea. But that's the scary thing. Those around him that are dangerous, like Stephen Miller, I don't know what they're working out in their private lives, but it's not, it's not normal.

[Interviewer]

What is it about speaking out? Like, to me, it doesn't seem like a choice for you to speak out. I can't imagine you not speaking out when you see something wrong.

[Robert De Niro]

What it was in the beginning is that I would see him at these rallies saying things like to see, I want to punch him in the face. How dare you say that you want to punch somebody in the face. I realized this guy's got a real problem, much worse than I ever thought. You're bound to create bad situations by doing that. That's not a person who cares about. Everybody is trying to unite everybody. You're trying to divide everybody. Used to see him have these stupid fights with Rosie o' Donnell and other people, and she was tough and she was.

[Interviewer]

She stood up to him.

[Robert De Niro]

What is all that about? This is not about somebody who is leading the country. To me, someone like that should never even been allowed to get near running for president. He's unqualified, period. And there has to be some way to exclude people like him. There has to be. Look where we are.

[Interviewer]

I think about all of the feeble efforts to stop him. Mitt Romney wanted to disqualify him for not revealing his taxes, which seems quaint now, but when you look at the way he's enriching himself from foreign governments, from the taxpayer, traditionally, Americans don't like that.

[Robert De Niro]

It's crazy.

[Interviewer]

It's insane.

[Robert De Niro]

I mean, it's beyond corruption. It's crazy.

[Interviewer]

It's like an American oligarchy.

[Robert De Niro]

Yeah. It's theirs right before our eyes, and it has to be stopped.

[Interviewer]

When you look at the people that are starting to fight back, you know, around the same time that Minneapolis seemed to draw a line in the sand around ice, the six lawmakers, all of them either veterans or former national security officials, made a video saying to the men and women of the military, and I know you have a lot of folks that you support that are veterans that find their way into politics. Their fight seemed to enrage Donald Trump. He's accused them of treason. How important do you think it is that those six pick this fight and are standing strong?

[Robert De Niro]

Essential. Essential. Mark Kelly. Because the whole thing is crazy. They have the right to do that. They must do that. They knew that. That's how I feel. You have to do that. A Monkelly. I mean, this is a, like an

[Interviewer]

astronaut, like a quintessential American.

[Robert De Niro]

I was with him when he's telling me how a missile's coming at him while he's flying his plane. What do we talk about? I mean, that's crazy.

[Interviewer]

But don't you think that's what drives Trump crazy? Like he's like a real masculine hero.

[Robert De Niro]

Yes. And then he is.

[Interviewer]

And Trump hates guys.

[Robert De Niro]

I know. Because he's nothing. He doesn't know what that is.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. What is the masculinity piece like you are, you know, have the male trade of wanting to protect people, of using your voice to protect people from Trump. Trump seems so triggered by that. Triggered by, by real men, by displays of actual strength.

[Robert De Niro]

It's probably something because he knows he, he's had, he's never experienced or displayed anything like that in his life. What do I know? I mean, I just, he doesn't, he respects that in some, in a way, yeah. Yet he doesn't, you know, I mean, his father gave him a lot of money. His father must have been a monster. I, I could be wrong, but to raise a kid like that, I, I, he's sensitive they say sensitive. You don't want to get. Give me a break. Sensitive, yeah, we're all sensitive. He's sensitive. You don't want to hurt his feelings. And he's the President of the United States, and look what he's doing. This is insane. It's crazy.

[Interviewer]

That's how we ended up with January 6th. Mitch McConnell said, you know, he's upset that he lost. Just let him work it out. We end up with a deadly insurrection.

[Robert De Niro]

I was with a friends, and I was annoyed at somebody who aligned himself with Trump. And so I called him, I said, I'm sorry, you know, that I got upset, but, you know, I don't know. And I said, you know, it's one thing you got a crazy uncle at home and doing that stuff, but this guy is the President, United States. There's a difference.

[Interviewer]

You got to know Michael Fanone.

[Robert De Niro]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Sometimes he feels like a character in a movie, like this one man bulwark against Trump. He faces threats. What do you make of the fact that the people that tased him and almost killed him were pardoned? And he's sort of out there. I mean, he has some powerful friends and allies, but we're not the government. What do you think it's like to be someone who was beaten up on January 6th and now you face, like a president who pardoned the people who hurt you physically?

[Robert De Niro]

I totally beyond understand what he's gone through. I've seen him. I've seen him in interviews. I've seen him when he was very upset once outside a building in D.C. saying, I give up. That's it. Whatever. He was so mad, upset, pissed off, of course. And he's articulate and smart, and he's right. When that happened, what are we talking about? This is. This is not acceptable. And I don't know why people who, they have not had any kind of education or any kind of told right and wrong by their parents or somebody in life that this is right and this is wrong. What are you supposed to stand for? You gave an oath. You give an oath. You have to honor that. You don't honor that, people aren't going to forget all these people and what they've done.

[Interviewer]

You told me a story about campaigning in 2024 in Pennsylvania, a really contested battleground, and some young, young men who believe the lies that have been told about 2020. How does that happen? How do we undo that?

[Robert De Niro]

Well, I was just. I was. It was toward the end of the, you know, the day or two before the election, and I was at A college, I forget the name of it. And these guys were heckling me in the back with hats on and MAGA hats and all. And then I went out into the street, you know, I was just on my way and then I said, wait, find those guys. They brought the kids over. They were big, big young men.

[Interviewer]

Were they nice?

[Robert De Niro]

They were nice, respectful, but they were sure that they were right.

[Interviewer]

So they were unashamed of believing the lies.

[Robert De Niro]

Yeah. That he had won the 2020 election. What can I say to them and say, look, you're wrong, that's all. I'm sorry.

[Interviewer]

You know, what is it about being out there that's so scary to a lot of people in Hollywood?

[Robert De Niro]

I don't know. I mean, some people, you understand who are, they're afraid and they're not afraid. Intimidated. That's the big thing for me. Intimidation. You have to be. It's like what Jason Crow said. He said courage is infectious or contagious or whatever. And that was so important because there's intimidation. That can be the same, but courage is the same also. And people have to say, wait a minute, I saw that person. They were courageous. They could lose something. I saw those people. That gives me the courage because I know that's what the right thing to do is be courageous against this. Because it's exactly what they want to do. They want to intimidate us. And that's what we see with ICE and we see all this stuff, you know, you gotta stand up because it'll never get better.

[Interviewer]

Trump is so spiteful and threatens people that speak out, especially famous people. Are you afraid of him?

[Robert De Niro]

I can't afford to be afraid. Of course you have anxiety. You're afraid, you're afraid, but you got to get out. You got to defy this. You cannot allow them to intimidate you. It's the classic story. You cannot allow them to intimidate you. You have to. It's better that you strap on your balls and get out there and face them because you're not going to win. The other way. They take your lunch money on a Monday. Don't think they're not going to take it on a Tuesday or a Wednesday or Thursday. And more. The bully in the schoolyard.

[Interviewer]

We'll pause here for a quick break. When we're back, much, much more with legendary actor Robert De Niro. Stay with us.

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[Interviewer]

Do you think that there is a fear that people won't get work in Hollywood? I mean, is it that bad? Like a blacklist kind of fear?

[Robert De Niro]

Well, that might be some of it. What I am more concerned about the people who control those companies, the big tech bros who ought to know better. Jeff Bezos just cut a third of the Washington Post and all the stuff he used to say and now all of a sudden this.

[Interviewer]

Why do you think he changed?

[Robert De Niro]

I think he was afraid and he's just trying to cut, you know, maneuver.

[Interviewer]

What does Jeff Bezos need? What does someone that rich need?

[Robert De Niro]

I agree. What does he need? What more does he need? The only thing he needs is integrity and he lost his integrity by doing that. You got to stand up that you have the money to fight the government for for decades. You have the money to drag it all out, do everything. But what did you do? What did you do for what? What are you going to gain from it?

[Interviewer]

You know, President Obama talked early, early in the second Trump probably about a year ago about how disappointed he was in all the people capitulating, all the law firms capitulating, all the universities making deals. And he said, look, you have to, if you're a university, just live off your big endowment. If you're a law firm, just, you know, maybe delay the renovation on your second home or something. I mean, his point was the people with the most, the people who benefited from the country the most, should not be the first ones capitul. Why do you think that has been the dynamic?

[Robert De Niro]

Well, they set an example.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Robert De Niro]

They set an example, as they should, and they are successful in this country and then in the world because of this country.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Robert De Niro]

And so they owe the country something. I don't know. I don't understand it.

[Interviewer]

Do you think it can be turned around? Do you think when you look at how unpopular Trump is now and the fact that you've got ordinary people in Minneapolis shaming all these people of privilege for them.

[Robert De Niro]

Bravo. For them.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Robert De Niro]

Great. They stand up for something. As they should.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Robert De Niro]

And that's what the whole country should be doing. And I don't use the word hope anymore.

[Interviewer]

Why?

[Robert De Niro]

Because we hoped with Mueller, we hoped with this, we hope with the election, we hope with everything, and it doesn't work.

[Interviewer]

I said the same. I said hope is the way to despair. So I'm done with hope. It's like it makes you disappointed, but maybe it's replaced by shame. Right. Like, I feel like the people in Minneapolis, if you're at a big law firm that capitulated to Trump, you should be ashamed.

[Robert De Niro]

You should be ashamed. You should. And there are the law firms that didn't capitulate. So we're proud of them.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Robert De Niro]

We respect them.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Robert De Niro]

And as we go on in this world, in life, they're the ones that we will respect and pay back with our respect.

[Interviewer]

I wonder what it is about people's inability to see beyond the next three. Like, he's gone in three years and why don't people.

[Robert De Niro]

Well, he will never leave. We have to make him leave. The. The use. He jokes now about nationalizing the. The elections. He's not joking. We've seen enough already. Yeah, he every. And everybody's worried about it, but he is. He means it.

[Interviewer]

So you don't think he lives in three.

[Robert De Niro]

He ain't leaving. No. No way. We used to joke the first time they get him in the moving van and he'd be sitting in the back of the movie van. They did put him in whatever. Like a fake desk in his desk of not leaving the. The White House desk. No, but he won't. He won't leave. Let's not kid ourselves. He will not leave. It's up to us to get rid of him.

[Interviewer]

What does that mean then? Like, do you think that whatever election is had in the midterms Won't be respected. Do you believe there is?

[Robert De Niro]

He'll attempt that. We have to make sure that, like what he's trying now, that all the polling places have people that can come there safely. That might mean citizens on the other side, whatever they try to do. Citizens saying, well, we're just here to watch. Watch them. Watch you, watch everybody. So they walk in there and feel safe and they can walk.

[Interviewer]

People.

[Robert De Niro]

Yeah, it's up to the people. You start hearing it all over now. It's up to you. Damn right. It's about the people. The people got like Vietnam, you got to get out there and protest the no kings coming. It's got to be not 7, 8, 9 million. It's got to be way, way more than that.

[Interviewer]

What do you think it is about peaceful protests that drives Trump out of his mind? He's so triggered when people are out there peacefully protesting against him.

[Robert De Niro]

Who cares? He's an idiot. We gotta get rid of him. He's gonna ruin the country. Everything that this country has worked for represents. He is ruining it. And it's right before your eyes.

[Interviewer]

Do you think people are. Eric Holder said this to me. We are slow to rouse, but once we are awake, we stay awake.

[Robert De Niro]

Well, I hope he's right, because we now, and I didn't want to use the word hope, people have to mobilize now and be ready for the midterms so that there's no question that it's a fair election.

[Interviewer]

We just had off year elections and Democrats ran the tables. Republicans lost by huge margins, indisputable margins. To me, that creates an unfair standard. Republicans just have to win. Democrats have to win in massive margins to protect against fraud and cheating. But do you think that's the standard until we get Trump out of the system?

[Robert De Niro]

Yeah, I think it is. I think everybody has to get out there. Every way possible, they have to get out there. This is it. This is our country. You know, I want my country back. I don't want everybody going around with a MAGA with the American flags like they're the only ones. We are the Americans too. And I think there are more of us. No, I don't think. I know there are more of us because we believe in what's right and wrong. Empathy, kindness, bringing the country together, not dispersing it. That's some sickness that Trump has. When he was a kid, I read something, it's interesting in a magazine where they're talking about him as a kid somehow and just destroying things or doing destructive things for the sake of doing It. He was a big fish in a little pond, in his little real estate thing, whatever he had. But now he's controlling the country and indirectly the world.

[Interviewer]

What do you think about the world's reaction to Trump being so much blunter than our own? You know, like world leaders sort of look at us like the guy is crazy. The guy's not well. And you've got all these Republicans who will only say that off the record.

[Robert De Niro]

They're right. I mean, those world leaders are right. From Canada.

[Interviewer]

The Prime Minister.

[Robert De Niro]

Prime Minister of Canada.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. After trade, war. And he basically said, Mark Carney, he said, we're not facing a conflict. We've had a rupture.

[Robert De Niro]

A rupture. Yes. He's right. There's no easy way. It's time for us, who've taken this country for granted, to stand up and get rid of this guy.

[Interviewer]

When you talk about the stakes of the election, it's clear, it's plain, the evidence is before our eyes. So it's not spin, it's not bullshit. But what Democrats, in your view, communicate that clearly with the public?

[Robert De Niro]

Well, I like what Gavin Newsom does because he's trolling him. And it's so simple. He just fights him back in his own game.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Robert De Niro]

And right away, you know, that's. You neutralize him or at least hold him at bay. Whatever. I like Jason Crow, what he said about courage. It's infectious, contagious. And this is a guy who's had, I think, three tours.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Combat tours. Yeah.

[Robert De Niro]

Afghanistan and Iraq. Good for him. That's what it is. And I never thought of that. Yes, it's contagious the way fear is contagious, but it works the other way. And we need courage. People have to stand up and know if they don't have the courage, it's not gonna change for them. Because he's not going away. Trump and his cronies are not going away.

[Interviewer]

What is it about speaking out and reminding people? Because it is true that there are more of us. I mean, Trump has, at best, about a 35% approval rating. So.

[Robert De Niro]

Well, it's like, you know, people, bullies, gangs, mob stuff. It's all the small group that uses violence to intimidate everybody else. That's why it's so important to fight, that you can do it in a peaceful way. Just everybody, you know?

[Interviewer]

So I went back and looked at. I know you don't like to talk about yourself or your achievements, but I'm going to mention just one. Is that. Okay. Okay. President Obama gave you you received the Presidential Medal of Freedom. And for all of your two time Oscar winner and nominated, I think 10 times. Was there something about President Obama giving you the Presidential Medal of Freedom that was different? Did you allow yourself to enjoy that?

[Robert De Niro]

Sure. I mean, yeah, sure.

[Interviewer]

Can I read what he said about you? Yeah. So Obama said this in 1973, a critic wrote of Robert De Niro. This kid doesn't just act, he takes off into the vapors. And it was true. His characters are iconic. A Sicilian father turned New York mobster. A mobster who runs a casino. A mobster who needs therapy. A father in law who is scarier than a mobster. Al Capone, a mobster. Robert combines dramatic precision and, it turns out, comedic timing with his signature eye for details. And while the name De Niro is synonymous with tough guy, his true gift is the sensitivity that he brings to each role. He once said, quote, I feel I have to earn the right to play a part. And the result is honest and authentic art that reveals who we really are. I don't know that there's any better way to contrast what Trump actually is with what Obama There is describing you as doing and playing mobsters, that, that Trump has somehow mixed up the roles and he's playing what he thinks a tough person is. When your depiction of these people is so iconic and award winning because you play human beings. And I wonder where along the way you think we lost the plot about what toughness is.

[Robert De Niro]

Listen, I'm not a tough guy. I played them. But somebody asked me once, I know Stephen Colbert years ago, and he said, tough guy? I said, no, I'm not tough guy. I'm a concerned citizen, period. But I do see what we're up against and it makes me so angry. I don't see how we can ignore it. We have to face it and strap them on and get out there. There's no easy way around this.

[Interviewer]

But that takes toughness.

[Robert De Niro]

Well, it might. It takes a determination and knowing that you have no choice but to go forward. If you don't go forward, it's over.

[Interviewer]

Colbert is one of the beacons, right? Speaking truth to power, even though it has somehow cost him his job. What do you make of the assault on comedians and artists?

[Robert De Niro]

Well, it's what it is. But too bad. They got to keep going, keep fighting. And they are. And Colbert and Kimmel, God bless him. And you know, and that's the only way people like what happened with Kimmel, with people canceling their subscriptions and so on. That's what you have to do, People have to start thinking that way about what they're going to stop buying. And that thing is very important.

[Interviewer]

To use your economic power.

[Robert De Niro]

Yes. To say, I'm sorry, we have to do without this until, you know, things change. There's no easy way around it. And that's why the big tech guys and all that and all the guys that have the money, shame on them.

[Interviewer]

I was going to come back to the tech guys. I mean, for. For, I think, smaller outfits, to see the big fish capitulate, it's disorienting.

[Robert De Niro]

It's more than disorienting. It's deeply depressing.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Robert De Niro]

They're looked up to in a way I don't even think Bezos realizes. But when he didn't do the thing with the Washington Post for Kamala Harris, he might not even agree. It's the paper. Even if they come after me, even if they criticize me, that's it. I'm fair game. You bought it. Those are the conditions. Otherwise, it means nothing. That to me is, when you buy a paper, you are also fair game. Otherwise the paper doesn't get the respect that it really should have.

[Interviewer]

And he's refused to protect it. You know, journalists had the FBI at their homes. The firings take place, and he's refused to protect it. It seems to be complicit in its destruction.

[Robert De Niro]

What does he gain from that? I don't know what he. What he gains. I mean, I could see where they all are trying to maneuver, get his ear. And it's like the people in Trump's first term. I was there because somebody had to be there in order to keep the ship afloat. And I understand that. I understand it now. And with these big businesses, I understand that. And I don't understand the intricacies of all that, but what I do understand is the optics of it. And the optics are not good. And sometimes those are. The most important thing. The optics with the Washington Post was let them endorse Kamala Harris. That's a statement that's very important. And what happened didn't. And now he showed it later.

[Interviewer]

Right. What do you think of the optics of all of the most successful people, the people, to your point, to whom America gave the most right. Tim Cook, Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk, you know, the people who've built these. These gigantic companies in America, standing next to him as he's inaugurated, basically saying, it's ours.

[Robert De Niro]

I don't understand that. They have a responsibility. They had a responsibility and they still have a responsibility. They are the backbone of this country with what they have. They have to help save this country. They have to help protect this country.

[Interviewer]

My conversation with Robert De Niro continues right after the break. We'll be right back.

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[Interviewer]

What would you say to those guys now after seeing how bad it is if you wanted? I mean, I feel like everyone should have known how bad it would be. But what would you say to them now?

[Robert De Niro]

I don't know whether I can even say I told you so. But now it's you don't do anything. You don't stand up. And believe me, you will be cheered by people if you stand up and do what you should do. It's that simple. You have the power. Many people don't. All they have is the vote, right? One person. They have the power. And musk is just a joke, but a dangerous joke.

[Interviewer]

Dangerous for sure. What do you envision for the story that the pro democracy side can tell leading up to the elections? Because the Democrats seem to still fight amongst themselves like it's normal times. And I feel like in some ways I'm a more enthusiastic Democratic voter because I view this like Liz Cheney. I view it like Liz Cheney or Dick Cheney, you know, Dick Cheney, the end of his life, endorsed Kamala Harris. You know, like at the end of the day, Dick Cheney understood that it was about the democracy. And I wonder how. What story do we tell on the pro democracy side?

[Robert De Niro]

The story is our country and Trump is destroying it. And who knows what his reasons are, but it's sick. It's fucked up. We have have to save the country. I have so much respect for Liz Cheney and even Dick Cheney after. I hated him for what he did. We all did. But he did what he knew he had to. That's what it is. The country sticks together, the family sticks together. When a crazy thing happens, a crazy person, an enemy, because Trump is the enemy of this country. Let's not kid ourselves. It's that simple. Everybody has to stick together to get them out and get back on track. We can all argue and fight about our little differences and all that. This is the big problem.

[Interviewer]

You think about how Jack Smith, you

[Robert De Niro]

know, God bless him, Jack Smith, he's great.

[Interviewer]

You know, he's testified. Even with Trump in power, threatening him with all sorts of things, he had the goods to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was a felon.

[Robert De Niro]

Yes, of course.

[Interviewer]

It's crazy.

[Robert De Niro]

It is crazy. It's crazy. Jack Smith. All I can say is God bless him. You know, he's so strong and so just like this, that poor guy. But he's doing what many other people should have done and he doesn't have anything. Not like these big tech guys. They got everything. And look what he's doing.

[Interviewer]

I know we talked about hope already, and I'll leave. I'll leave hope aside because it's almost like an indulgence. Whether you hope or not, whatever, we have to sort of do what. What needs to do.

[Robert De Niro]

No time for hope.

[Interviewer]

People will study this time. Right. For better or for worse. And so I always think, like, what do you want to be able to say you did?

[Robert De Niro]

Well, that's the question. It's about what about the people that don't have anything to say because they did nothing.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Robert De Niro]

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And that's where I think we are. Because there are people that have stayed silent for a long time just wanting to ride it out.

[Robert De Niro]

There's no such thing. You know, and the examples, like the tech Bros and all that, they're the ones that should be setting the example for us.

[Interviewer]

And it's the other way around, sadly.

[Robert De Niro]

It's not.

[Interviewer]

Does it affect the choices you make at this point or the projects that you'll do? The story is almost exceeds anything that could. Right. We've had the Handmaid's Tale. We've had Zero Day. It's like real life has almost jumped ahead.

[Robert De Niro]

Yeah. Real life is real life. It's right there. What else is there now? Every day it's a drama of some sort with this administration. What crazy thing are they gonna come up with next? What crazy thing are they gonna think of next?

[Interviewer]

Right. Do you think that there is a sense among sort of writers and directors not to touch the Trump story? I mean, do you think that people shy away from it, or do you think they try to get at the human. What is? What is?

[Robert De Niro]

We don't have time for the human side. We know what the human side. It's crazy. Whatever the side that'll be explained in 50 years in a movie, somebody will do a. Hopefully great director will do a great story on this time. Someone will play Trump, and they'll understand what it is. And much, much more that's been learned in those years that that can be done. But right now, it's a survival thing with this country. And I think people are just involved in their lives and they're not focusing, and sometimes it comes out, oh, this is crazy. That's crazy. It's what it is. It's right there in front of us,

[Interviewer]

what you just said, people going about their lives, I have a lot of sympathy for that. Right. And me going about my life is from a place of profound privilege. But my sense in just one year of Trump's term is that no one is safe. Right. You could be just driving through a protest and you could end up cut out of your car.

[Robert De Niro]

You know, there it is, then. But what happens? And if you. If you study it, I. Once those situations start developing and really get underway, like the Soviet Union, Eastern Europe, East Germany, then when you find yourself having to rat on your neighbor, and maybe you don't like your neighbor for something they did to you, some slight. But now you have the opportunity to tell on them, and all of a sudden that happens. If you look at East Germany, East Berlin, Stasi and all that stuff, then you see how it affects everyday working people in little communities everywhere. That's where it'll go. I don't see how. And there are people who know this, who've lived and come out, writers who've come out and said that, experienced it, and are now living here, and they can tell you firsthand how that works.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Robert De Niro]

We talked and that's scary.

[Interviewer]

We talked about the book How Democracies Die by Stephen Levinsky. And I've read On Tyranny by Timothy Snyder. And the first page is about obeying in advance. What you're talking about with the tech guys. It feels that that piece of it is all about what you're talking about, just deciding to be brave, deciding to be strong, even if it's, as you said, not what you thought you'd be doing right now.

[Robert De Niro]

This is not what I want to be doing.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Robert De Niro]

Those guys don't know how lucky they are.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Robert De Niro]

Some people even go along with it and like it or somewhere like the base or something. But even they would be affected down in the long run. And I don't think it wouldn't be such a good situation for even them. Trickles down to everyday life, little communities.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Then it's your bakery or convenience store, your school, your bus driver.

[Robert De Niro]

And there's no rule of law. There's no equanimity. There's no. That's what we're talking about. Rule of law. Jack Smith trying to right what happened there has to be accountability.

[Interviewer]

New York City, you played a big role. You play a big role in who we think of ourselves as, as a city. And in its comeback after 9, 11. I keep thinking about, you know, if, if people who don't respect the truth, if people who don't respect the FBI, people who don't respect the Department of Justice. What do you worry about for our city with these guys in charge of.

[Robert De Niro]

You can't have an administration like this that is bent on getting even with the people in New York because of what they do or they don't respect or. Now we're going to send ICE into New York. That's the big test. It will not be nice. Things don't usually happen the way you think they might happen.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Robert De Niro]

Go in that direction. And all I keep saying is that people have to resist, Resist, resist, resist, resist. That's the only way. There's no magic. There's no nothing. People are not going to go away. Even if Trump dies for some reason by having an illness or something, parts of that movement are still there. And that's the scary part. It has to be neutralized by the people who say, wait a minute, our rights are being trampled on. We have to stand up. Period. Period. And the main thing I'm concerned about is at the polls that they feel safe enough to go there without being threatened, feeling threatened or repercussions the last

[Interviewer]

thing I wanted to ask you about was you're so busy still sort of reading and thinking about the country and about our elections and our democracy. Do you ever sit around with Martin Scorsese and talk about like the scope of your career? Do you guys, do you just plow forward? Is it all about forward looking? Do you ever reflect?

[Robert De Niro]

No. I mean, I did some of that in the documentary that was about Marty.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, it's great.

[Robert De Niro]

And we did it, you know, we brought together. But no, not unless in an interview or something you reflect on it and so on. But not that we couldn't, but not now.

[Interviewer]

So I watched Sally Field name the nominees in 1981 at the Oscars.

[Robert De Niro]

The winner is Robert De Niro, the Raging. I forgot my line so the director wrote them down for me.

[Interviewer]

And do you remember, you get up there and you said, I was afraid I'd forget my lines and you thank everybody.

[Robert De Niro]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I mean, you're always about lifting up everybody around you and everybody, of course. Why is that?

[Robert De Niro]

You have to. You have to lift people up.

[Interviewer]

Why?

[Robert De Niro]

You have to bring them together, period. You can't divide people. You can't win that way. It's a no win situation. And look what we have. Look who we have there. It's almost like a destiny to have this, this thing there attempting to destroy this country and maybe not even understanding why. So it's up to us to protect the country that we love. Yes.

[Interviewer]

You weren't supposed to make me cry. Thank you so much. Thank you for this. We talked about how this is the moment. This is the moment that it goes one way or the other.

[Robert De Niro]

That's right.

[Interviewer]

You think it's going the other way?

[Robert De Niro]

I don't know. All I know is people have to resist, Resist, resist, resist. There's no easy way. It's not going to come to you easy. You know, there's a time when you know in your own life and your own survival, you better do this, better jump and run through the fire. Because if you don't run through the fire, you're not getting out. And that's what we have to do.

[Interviewer]

I'm glad I get to run next to you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening to the best people. You can continue to subscribe to our premium service on Apple Podcasts to get this another msnow podcast ad free. You'll also get early access and exclusive bonus content. All episodes of this podcast are also available on YouTube. Visit msnow. The best people to watch the Best People is produced by Vicki Vergelina. Our Associate producer is Rana Shabazzi, with additional production support from Query Robinson and Pat Elliott. Our audio engineers are Greg Devins II and Hazik Bin Ahmad Fared. Katie Lau is our Senior Manager of Audio production Pat Berkey is the Senior Executive Producer of Deadline White House Brad Gold is the Executive Producer of Content Strategy Aisha Turner is the Executive Producer of audio and Madeline Herringer is Senior VP in charge of audio, digital and Long form. Search for the Best People wherever you get your podcast and be sure to follow the series. Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the Briefing with Jen Psaki, and more. Voices you know and trust. Ms. NOW is your source for news, opinion and the world. Learn more at Ms. Now.