← The Best People with Nicolle Wallace
The Best People with Nicolle Wallace
Deconstructing the Manosphere with the MeidasTouch Brothers
00:52:47
The MeidasTouch brothers know how to reach a pro-democracy audience: by lifting up rather than punching down.
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- [00:00]
Ashley Flowers
Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers, creator and host of the number one true crime podcast, Crime Junkie. Every Monday, me and my best friend Brit break down a new case, but not in the way you've heard before and not the cases you've heard before. You'll hear stories on Crime Junkie that haven't been told anywhere else. I'll tell you what you can do to help victims and their families get justice. Join us for new episodes of Crime Junkie every Monday. Already waiting for you by searching for Crime Junkie wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [00:32]
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- [01:10]
Nicole Wallace
I quit Twitter or X after the election because it wasn't that anymore. It wasn't. I couldn't even find the comments.
- [01:17]
Ben Meiselas
Something changed over there.
- [01:22]
Nicole Wallace
Maybe it's the ketamine, but. Hi, everybody, this is Nicole Wallace. This is the Best People with Nicole Wal and I truly have some of the very best people doing what we try to do, which is tell the truth, talk to each other, have a little bit of fun. I'm here with the Meisellas brothers, Ben, Brett and Jordi. Back medicine and injuries are involved. All the rules are off. I want to say something, though, about the Best People podcast and what you guys have done. You are literally doing the thing that everyone is trying to figure out how to do. You have cracked the code on the best way to to be faithful to our listeners, to the people in the pro democracy movement who just want facts and substance. And I wanna understand how you did it and how you did it as brothers.
- [02:13]
Brett Meiselas
Well, first off, it's great to be here. You mentioned the back, so I'll just give that reference to the people like a disclaimer. The disclaimer is that since I traveled to New York about two and a half weeks ago, I came back with all of these back issues and there's like an L5S, one herniated disc, and I've just been doctor to doctor to doctor so that.
- [02:33]
Nicole Wallace
That.
- [02:33]
Ben Meiselas
But people are going to hear Ben in rare form today. I want to do this at the.
- [02:37]
Brett Meiselas
Top of this podcast.
- [02:38]
Ben Meiselas
This is medication, Ben. This is back pain, Ben. And so you never know what's going to happen on this show. That's what I'm so excited about, you know, but.
- [02:45]
Brett Meiselas
But the way we did it is that we never approached this to necessarily try to do it. We just wanted to speak to people. You know, we don't really have political backgrounds. We didn't really approach this from a, like, let's be political. We wanted to help people. And we've really built this on just trying to talk truth and common sense and listen and understand what people are going through. And we found that the issues that are most important to people are often the issues that are not being discussed and the issues weighing on their minds and on their families are not being addressed. And so we listened, we heard, and we wanted to address it and figure out really, not as like this political party or that, but just how as human beings, we could fight for people in this country and then more broadly, just people who want peace and want community and appreciate democracy across the world.
- [03:47]
Nicole Wallace
Well, a lot of what it is is calling bullshit on everything that isn't those things. I mean, I covered the same clip that you did on Fox News. You just did it so much better than I did. But the clip where Jesse Watters says, and it's a sign of how demented we've all become, that we didn't all, I guess, cover it with outrage and shock, but it is acceptable for one of the, I think, higher rated programs to do a block where they come in talking about John Thune's body and then insult Chuck Schumer for being effeminate.
- [04:21]
Ben Meiselas
I was at a resort a little while back and I saw Senator Thune at the gym. The man is jacked and the guy is in great shape and he lifts hard. You look at Schumer, he's built like a woman. Now, men do not wanna be led by the party of women. Men wanna be led by other men. So Democrats need to become men. And then they could persuade men.
- [04:45]
Nicole Wallace
It's weird and it's gross, but you guys suffer. No. Fools talk about how that stands out to you and how you covered it.
- [04:53]
Ben Meiselas
I think one of the things that connects kind of everything that we do here is kind of going back to our origin story, and that's that this was all kind of birthed, kind of freaking out to each other in group text chats. And so I think that idea of us not coming from a political background other than been picking up flowers for politicians on Capitol Hill 20 years ago, I think that that allowed us to just approach things from this sort of outsider perspective. And I think in a weird way, not having those sorts of political ties or connections actually helped us just approach things differently. I think we were and always continue to approach things just as three brothers who kind of looking at the world and going, this stuff's crazy. This is crazy. This isn't normal. And reacting to it, how we would react to each other. And so I think that people feel that and they're kind of let into our family dynamic of calling out the crap and just being worried about things and trying to figure out what action we could take about things.
- [05:53]
Brett Meiselas
Well, you know, again, it goes back to listening to people and hearing what the concerns are out there right now. People can't afford homes. They can't afford to pay their rent. They're worried they're about to be kicked off of healthcare. They feel psychologically tortured living paycheck to paycheck. They care about the climate. People care about the climate. They're worried that FEMA isn't gonna be there for them when hurricane season hits. They're seeing FEMA not there for people during disasters already. They're seeing a deranged and unhinged person in the Oval Office who's, like, painted the whole thing gold, attacking foreign leaders there and destroying our alliances. And people are scared and they're worried, and they don't hear talking to them about those things. And so when I approach the coverage of a Jesse Waters, it is to reflect the outrage and put the BS radar detector on, but it's also to let the viewer and the audience know why are they covering it this way. And it's because they don't want to talk about these other things. The reason why they're making this about, oh, John Thune is this masculine, strong man. Look at him in the gym. And look at Chuck Schumer. He's a woman. He's a girl. Look at that. Is because they don't want to talk about the fact that they're taking away your healthcare. They're shifting billions of trillions of dollars in tax cuts for the wealthy. This is gonna be one of the single biggest transformations of wealth from people who need the money to people who, frankly, don't need the money. And I just describe that as the kind of weapon of mass distraction. And I think you have to then make that other connection. Why does this matter? To me, the viewer. And that's how I try to shape those se that I do.
- [07:43]
Jordi Meiselas
You framed it there perfectly too, when you were talking about the Jesse Waters. It's weird. It's just flat out weird. And I feel like, and this is kind of network wide, folks have been gaslit into thinking so much of this is normal and it's all become so normalized and that it's refreshing to an audience of people who are truly pro democracy that are watching this in their rooms or with their families.
- [08:04]
Brett Meiselas
Isn't this weird?
- [08:05]
Jordi Meiselas
And they're being told, no, it's normal. So then when they hear us reporting on it or you reporting on it now, they're like, okay, I'm not alone. I'm not crazy. This is weird stuff that we're witnessing.
- [08:17]
Ben Meiselas
I think the deviousness of what Fox has done is they've created a alternative universe world of news that looks like news to people. And they throw in some news that is straight news. And they do have good reporters on their staff. There are people who actually do a good job behind the scenes there. But they put up all the trappings of a news station. The chyrons, the sets, they have Fox Business Channel. They're throwing all this information at you that like, okay, I'm watching the news, I'm watching a news morning show. And then the things they are saying are just so outrageous. But I think people are so conditioned to believe that they are watching a legitimate news program. And of course, every organization out there is going to have their tilt just by nature. But what they're doing, I think is far more nefarious than anybody. I think it's clear that they are like operatives of the Trump administration of the Republican Party. They have their talking points each day. They are coordinated, in my opinion, with what's going on. And they use all these trappings of a news organization in order to do so much damage to the country every night.
- [09:22]
Nicole Wallace
I have so many worries as a mother of a son about the influence of the manosphere. But it just seems like so obvious that the episode you have about Jesse Waters, I mean, that's not masculinity. And I feel like young men aren't falling for it. But what are your thoughts? I mean, I think that there is a world where if you guys don't take over the world, we're worried about our sons.
- [09:43]
Brett Meiselas
First off, people who are Alpha don't go around calling themselves Alpha number one. So on the right who do that, there's that. And look, where I grew up, my dad Would say, ben, being a man is standing by your word. Being a man means you push back against the bully and you uplift people and you don't punch down at marginalized communities. I mean, the bully when I grew up was never the cool kid or the person that we were supposed to follow. I mean, that was the bully that was kind of gross. And the right wing man manosphere or whatever has built this whole thing around bullying and demonizing women. And that's just, you know, that's not okay. And I think more men need to go out there and say, that's not okay. Shut the F up and just stop it. Like, cut it out. Like, that's not okay. And we can't. Going back to what we said before, you can't hesitate with those things. We can't be like, oh, should we be bullies? No, you shouldn't be bullies. Do we need a Joe Rogan? No, we don't need a Joe Rogan. I don't wanna launder in conspiracies, I mean, the qualities that should appeal to young men or any people. But if we're addressing young men is you be a good person, you stand up for other people, you stand up for yourself. You don't join weirdo cults and have your brainwashed and you go about living a life, a good, decent life. And that's what's most rewarding. What I said is what just needs to be said. I think it's simple, it's not contrived. I don't need to do a $20 million study and masculinity to realize.
- [11:19]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, I mean, Ben, you call them, or you guys all call them the regime media. The way you do it is we're so equivocal, right? Like, I'm like, do I platform Fox? I don't know. I don't know. I wring my hands and then at the end, I play something and I try to quickly get out of it and say, I only showed you that. I mean, you guys are so comfortable in the pocket of what you're doing. And I think you've explained it, Ben, that you're listening to people and there's no space or distance between what people's lived experience is and the content you're providing. How are you going to scale that sort of lightning in a bottle?
- [11:52]
Brett Meiselas
So if you think about our network, we have the Midas Touch network, the Midas Touch YouTube channel, about 5 million subscribers, about 350 million views a month on that YouTube channel.
- [12:04]
Nicole Wallace
And then, incredible.
- [12:08]
Brett Meiselas
It's Been incredible that it has connected with the audience the way it has. But then we realize also that in order for us to scale and grow also I think the best way to do it is to really promote other authent voices like a Katie Fang as she pursues a career in independent media, but then also cultivating talent from kind of the ground up, like old school record industry style when they would used to go to like you know, the local pub and hear which band was getting, you know, exciting in the community. We're looking to see who are those creators of the future. So a good example of that is, you know, we partnered with a guy named adam Mochler. He's 22 years old, Gen Z, over a million subscribers now on YouTube. When we met him, it was in the thousands. And he's one of these people who's an incredible debater. He goes on right wing media. His style's slightly different than ours, but he'll go on right wing media and debate. But you know, he has a Gen Z audience. We have a channel led by someone named Tennessee Brando and he speaks to people in red states. We have a legal channel with some of the top legal minds called Legal AF where we can also platform the ACLU and all of these pro democracy legal groups who never really get the attention to explain their filings. And so to me that's how you kind of scale out.
- [13:33]
Nicole Wallace
Well, will you say more, any one of you, about what is the Midas mindset?
- [13:39]
Brett Meiselas
Yeah, I mean, I think the Midas mindset, as we said from the outset, is listening to people fighting for people fighting for democracy and leading with principles and values before leading with here's what the political expedient thing is to say and not being afraid to say it. Like I'm not afraid to say we need to tax the rich more. Okay. I'm not afraid to say everybody in America needs healthcare. I'm not afraid to say dei. I believe there should be diversity. I think that's great. Diversity is great. I don't hedge on these things. You know, I think that, you know, when it comes to women's reproductive rights, men should stay the hell out of it and we should be as supportive as we can. And it's not my place ever to lecture, speak to it, or even in any way offer my mansplaining opinion. We've started with that foundation of here's what we stand for, here's what we'll always stand for and where those beliefs align with a political party. Great. But we said we're not chasing politicians. They can come on our platform and speak to those issues, but you'll know where we stand on those issues in general. So I think just speaking truthfully on these issues and leading with humanity over gamified politics, both sides, to me, that's the Midas way.
- [15:11]
Jordi Meiselas
And Ben, I just wanna add to that as well, because I think you bring up such an excellent point. We're not chasing politicians or people. People are inherently flawed. They'll let you down. But values and strong core beliefs, that's been really our North Star since we started and this relentless relationship that we have with our community. You know, I saw someone, a big name in the space, I won't necessarily say his name here, but he said something that he never reads the comments. I couldn't disagree without more that's so important to us is to understand that immediate real time feedback with our community. How are folks feeling about these issues every second of the day? And sure, it's not always gonna be pretty. You know, sometimes the comment section gets a little bit nasty. But what we've seen is this way, we're never talking at our audience, we're talking with our audience. And all this time as we grow, we're having a conversation alongside our audience as we try and fight for these core beliefs.
- [16:05]
Nicole Wallace
I love that. And I quit Twitter or X after the election because it wasn't that anymore. It wasn't. I couldn't even find the comments.
- [16:14]
Ben Meiselas
Something changed over there, but totally.
- [16:17]
Brett Meiselas
Exactly.
- [16:19]
Nicole Wallace
Maybe it's the ketamine, but I. I hunger for that. I've said I miss Twitter from 2016 because I could find. Sure there was other stuff there and show me someone who doesn't read their own hate comments and that person is lying. But you could also find your audience. And I think I always say I have a monogamous relationship with the viewers and it really was cemented during the pandemic. But it's harder and harder without X. And I'm on blue sky now, but not all my viewers are on blue sky. How do you scale that connection from what you're sort of putting out there, the content and the people that are consuming that so that it benefits everybody. That feels like the whole answer, not just to our politics, but to our media.
- [17:06]
Ben Meiselas
I want to say this and I want to make it clear and it's related to your question, but I think it's an important point to make because it gets at exactly what you're saying. With what happened to X and ketamine aside, I think what's going on is, you know, in changing the algorithms that the way that he has with that app. And you know where I think we are well aware of it here, we are all users of the platform. We've seen that shift. I think a lot of folks who use these social media platforms don't quite realize that the information that is coming at them is not organic per se. It's being pushed at them for certain reasons. And there is a finger being placed on the scale in whatever direction. And I think X is the most egregious example of that. But I think far too many people get duped by it into thinking that that the prevailing opinion of the populace, and I think politicians get afraid of it when they start seeing nasty comments that they're getting. And I think there's a world where I think we need to step back from the current kind of technological space that we're in and understand that a lot of that isn't real. A lot of it is kind of astroturfed. And I've seen my.
- [18:11]
Nicole Wallace
How do you do that? How do you. Because, I mean, fear is such a powerful emotion. How do you do that?
- [18:16]
Ben Meiselas
Well, it's hard. It's really hard. And it's something that scares me are these platforms and AI and what that means for it. At a lot of the comments now that people get, a lot of the negative comments that come within the first few seconds of you making a post, they look like normal comments that are, you know, disagreeing with you. But I read them, I'm like, there's no way a human being wrote this. I'm sorry, the punctuation is a little off. There's something uncanny valley about this comment. And I'll see, you know, on X, there's all the blue check accounts, the accounts that pay to boost their posts. And so the top replies will be these AI responses that are designed to make you feel bad about yourself. And that's a frequent thing. And so I think too often that's then taken by politicians or media figures to go, this is, okay, so this is what people believe right now. And I'm like, but is it. Or is it what Elon Musk wants you to think people believe right now? To push whatever the agenda it is now? I think it requires a whole new level of media literacy that we may not even ever be able to catch up to because technology is moving so quickly. But I find when I'm able to read through these comments, I find that my filter, at least I am able to tell, okay, this looks like AI right. But then there are comments that are constructive criticism that I think you needed be able to take and understand. And then there are comments that, you know, are concerned citizens who are making their thoughts clear. And I think it also requires us to step back and say what's real, what's not real? Are we being duped, you know, or is this legitimate? And the answers aren't always so black and white with a lot of these things.
- [19:47]
Brett Meiselas
But what I think is most important is building a real community, real people, real viewers who will follow you to whatever the next and new platforms are. Because people do yearn for a community. And whether it was with COVID or even before then, as things have gotten more digital, there have been a lot of barriers to people finding communities. And what we see in certain situations is that people can find communities based on negative attributes and qualities. The other hating on people, demonizing immigrants and leaning into that. And then people can find community, though with values and principles. And so we've always tried to encourage that other type of community. Let's all join together. And that's what our communities kind of self labeled the Midas mighty. And that's so important because wherever we go, the community's always been there. And in fact, you know, they're, they lead the way often.
- [20:57]
Nicole Wallace
We'll pause here. When we come back, we'll have much more with Ben Brett and Jordi Meiselas of the Midas Touch podcast.
- [21:14]
Ashley Flowers
Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers, creator and host of the number one true crime podcast, Crime Junkie. Every Monday, me and my best friend Britt break down a new case, but not in the way you've heard before and not the cases you've heard before. You'll hear stories on Crime Junkie that haven't been told anywhere else. I'll tell you what you can do to help victims and their families get justice. Join us for new episodes of Crime Junkie every Monday. Already waiting for you. By searching for Crime Junkie wherever you listen to podcasts, building a business may.
- [21:46]
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- [22:16]
Ashley Flowers
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- [22:19]
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- [23:10]
Brett Meiselas
Visit endurance warranty.com for your fast free quote today. That's endurance warranty.com.
- [23:22]
Nicole Wallace
You know the the right did this so much faster and with the exception of your community, in a lot of ways better than the pro democracy side. What did they figure out that as you said, you're the biggest for a reason. A lot of people are slow in pro democracy and in the Democratic party to figure out what you've all figured out. How did the right get this part so right so early?
- [23:50]
Ben Meiselas
Well, I think there was an element of a lot of those right wing creators at a certain point being kind of de platformed for good reasons. And a lot of those, you know, after like January 6th and whatnot and I feel like a lot of them went to these digital platforms and started communicating with people on these digital platforms and that was the area where people were consuming a lot of their content. And you know, I could tell you right now how often brothers were we derided by having a digital first approach over the past few years. I mean people have written some really bad things about us for being too focused on digital. And the real way to reach people is by reaching people on television with, you know, GRP points and various things. Oh yeah, we know we got doggies and babies and the whole bit over here. And you know, and our focus was always like there's this passionate community of folks out here who are getting their information from these digital sources. So you could either abandon them and say that we only need to be here and anybody focused on this other thing is an idiot or you could accept the fact that this is where Americans are getting their information from. Even the stuff that people are talking about. When you go to Thanksgiving dinner or any gathering, a lot of the things that they're talking about are things that percolate from a tweet or by somebody's blue sky post or by a podcast. And so I think the 2024 election was a big wake up call to folks like, holy crap, we should be paying attention to podcasts. We should be paying attention to these alternative forms of media. People are actually consuming content and are developing their worldviews in this way. And so I think we just, we started with a very digital first approach. Just by the nature of low barrier to entry, we could our thoughts out easily. All you need is a microphone and a camera and you're good to go. But I think part of it is that people on our sort of side of things, so to speak, I think they ceded the territory in a big way. And by the way, it's not to say, of course, that going on an MSNBC isn't a great. You should be going on that, but you shouldn't be ignoring all these other ways that people are consuming media as well. It's why you should have a podcast, it's why you should have a TV show. You gotta be reaching people where they are. And people are everywhere at this point. It's a fragmented audience out there.
- [26:13]
Jordi Meiselas
Exactly. And that's why when we started Midas, it was very important to us at the beginning that we showed up on every platform. So, Nicole, I'm in the same boat as you. I nuked my personal Twitter post election. I mean, it's a dumpster fire over there, but we still have the Midas and the brothers are still on. And so I let them check that territory out. And it's also because people are consuming their information in different ways. Just because something is resonating on a TikTok or a blue sky doesn't mean that same audience is over there on Facebook or reacting to whatever news is over there.
- [26:41]
Brett Meiselas
Jordan.
- [26:42]
Ben Meiselas
I remember TikTok. When we signed up for TikTok, people are like, isn't that the app 14 year olds use to do lip syncing, dancing? And we're like, no, there's something here.
- [26:49]
Brett Meiselas
Yeah, yeah, right wing media, they understand the psychology of people and they understand that people are suffering right now and are hurting. But see, they use it in a predatory way. They look at that fear, they speak to the fear, and then they blame another, and they build a community on that. If you're looking at the other side. You know, a lot of the audience really wants to know, are you my ally or not? Are you there with me? Or are you gonna switch and hedge on my very existence as a human being? If I'm a transgender person or if I'm gay, are you gonna hedge on that? Are you gonna look at some pol Data and say that my life doesn't matter to you, but you were with me before. Because all of a sudden people are saying no to, you know, no to dei. You know, what I knew from my career representing Colin Kaepernick before embarking on this journey into media was when I started with Colin during the first Trump administration, nobody wanted to do a deal with us. Nobody would return our call. We were Persona non groan. We stood for something. We stood against what was going on. Then everybody who wouldn't even talk to us wanted to do deals with us. And then you have Trump comes back into power, or just more of the movement now anti dei. And then those people don't return your phone calls and they go, you though you don't want to be one of those people. When you're stepping into this space, you need to always be there with your audience and be a proud and loud fighter for your audience and say it with conviction. And if you really don't have conviction about these issues, then, then, then step aside. Like, don't be in this space. Because if you do have convictions and you're authentic and you truly care, it's really not hard for me to decide how I'm going to program a specific segment or think about it, because the values and principles lead. And it's. Here it is. There's. There's not going to be a deviation from. I think that that's what's often missing in not just the politics, but just in the discourse. If we're talking about what's right wing doing and what's other people doing, what is the.
- [29:23]
Nicole Wallace
I want to associate myself with everything you just said, and I want to ask you to name names. If you think there's anyone in the pro democracy coalition that's an elected official that's walking that walk.
- [29:37]
Brett Meiselas
You know, I think the Fight the Oligarch tour with AOC and Bernie, and when I've seen Ro Khanna speak at that tour as well, you know, Ro Khanna will say, look, I represent the billionaires. I represent Silicon Valley. I have more billionaires in my district than anyone else. I'm saying tax them more. If I can say tax my own district more. Nobody should be afraid of it. When AOC in Bernie, as part of their speech, looked into the audience and said, we want to hear what you have to say. What does it mean to you to live paycheck to paycheck. And you would hear the people say, that's the decision if I'm going to pay my rent or be able to put a meal on the table for my kids. Someone screamed out psychological torture. And they listened and then they spoke to those issues. And here's the wild thing too me, it's borne out by the crowds. They're getting crowd sizes at those events that are 2, 3x the Trump rallies and the Trump events during the presidential election. I mean, we're talking about 30,000 people here, 19,000 people here. In an off year. In an off election year.
- [30:54]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, in February, after.
- [30:55]
Brett Meiselas
Yeah, in February. And then you'll have people go, well, I don't really. I'm like, the people are telling you what they want. Like, that's clearly where people are right now and where they always are. And so speak to them, listen to them. So to me, people who emulate that model, I think are gonna end up on the right side of these issues and they should follow that model because that's really where they are, not because of some coarse political calculus.
- [31:25]
Ben Meiselas
I wanna give a shout out to Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear, who I found fantastic. I mean, he's somebody who's been laser focused on, you know, those sort of kitchen table issues, so to speak, for the people in his state. And he's also somebody who stood steadfast by his values in a state where I'm sure it could be very difficult to stand by those values. I mean, he's been very outspoken for LGBTQ rights, passionate defense of gay people, of transgender people in a state like Kentucky, and he holds a 67% approval rating. I think you look at that, I think it flies in the face of all these other sort of poll tested ideas about what you need to believe, what you need to be saying in the Democratic, Democratic Party right now. When you look at the governor of Kentucky with a 67% approval rating, who isn't afraid to say these things, because I think even if people disagree with him, they know that he is coming at it from a place of authenticity. And I think that's kind of the most important thing. And I think that's one of the things that also connects folks like Andy Beshear and like Bernie and like AOC and like a Pete Buttigieg, who I think is the Single best communicator out there right now. Now, bar none in any political party. When you look at people like Wes Moore, I think you see passionate folks who are standing by their values.
- [32:42]
Jordi Meiselas
Exactly. And I'm living here in Pennsylvania and I just have to give a shout out to my governor here, Josh Shapiro, who's an excellent communicator on the ground here. I think he's hit every single county in Pennsylvania, and it's great to see him on the ground interacting with folks because his message here really resonates well.
- [32:57]
Nicole Wallace
One of the things that folks say that doesn't really bear out in your theory of the case, which is that if you connect to real people in their real lives, it's a guiding principle that should sort of be that hot knife in cold butter and get you through any debate or news cycle. The Democrats seem to have gotten wrapped around the axle of worrying about defending things that are so flagrantly unlawful, disappearing people and sending them to a third country indefinitely for no reason other than that they were mistakenly swept up by the Trump administration's own telling. A lot of Democrats are standing up, they're protesting, some have been arrested. But it feels like the party as a whole has some timidity around the issue of immigration. They're psyched out maybe that people waved mass deportation signs at the Republican convention and Trump won. How do you look at an issue like that? That Trump is clearly not doing what even his own voter were enthusiastic about. They were enthusiastic about deporting adjudicated violent criminals. But take away the common sense deportations, and there's no public support for deporting people who've been in this country and made their lives here or have children here or central to a community's economy. And the Democrats still seem to be timid about speaking out for them.
- [34:17]
Ben Meiselas
Right. It's one of those issues where the polls could be misleading on things because like you said, when you view the immigration issue as a whole, they might say, oh, they support strong immigration policy. You dig into that. Do you support disappearing a person who was here on protected status and sending them to an El Salvadoran prison? Suddenly people aren't so for that. And so I think people need to stand for their values. I think they need to present the case for what they want to do on immigration policy. And I think that also needs to include a positive, forward thinking policy. I feel like I kind of came of age, politically speaking, during the Obama era. Right. He was the first president I voted for. And I remember he had a very, I think he had a lot of clarity around this issue of immigration. And I remember him speaking so much about dreamers and the importance of, you know, ensuring that there are pathways to citizenship. And he also took the border quite seriously and I think deported more folks than even Trump did or anybody did. But he did it the right way, you know, when he did it. And so I think, you know, folks could learn a lot from that. But I think sort of bending over and saying, you know, we're just gonna, you know, just gonna let Trump kind of do whatever he wants here because this is a losing issue for us. I think that's a mistake. I think in the vacuum of your proactive ideas on an issue, you simply allow somebody else like a Donald Trump to come in with his slogans and just, you know, run roughshod over you when it doesn't have to be that way. You could actually have a clear vision that you're presenting to the American people.
- [35:48]
Brett Meiselas
You know, if you think about, I mean, the stories that I've done also that have really resonated with our audience were stories on immigration. We did an in depth coverage of what went down in San Diego in the south park area with the Bona Forchetta restaurant that was raided. I did another story before that, actually three stories recently I did a big kind of in depth piece on what happened in Tallahassee and the ICE raids of construction sites there. And it's gonna really, it's gonna harm businesses there. And then I did one recently at Milford high school, the 18 year old go star volleyball player at the team. He was gonna play in the band at the graduation. He was, you know, racially profiled by ice, detained and you know, showing the human element as well. And this is where local media does a good job, I think, reporting on these stories. And I try to uplift a lot of, you know, what I see, what I see there. Because sometimes if you look at a local media report of it on YouTube, it'll get like 400 views on a big story like that. And it deserves easily 400,000 in the first hour. And so I'll highlight, here's a great reporter doing local coverage. And they often highlight the human element of it as well, which they show Gomes girlfriend how the high school students all were out there protesting and did a walkout at Milford High School, how it's impacted the entire community. And again, it's one of those issues where, where it's not my job. And I don't see my role as someone who runs a media and News network to coach any political party. This is what you should do, or this is what you should not do. But what I think we can do is show when you message with authenticity, a reaction that you get from human beings when you lead with humanity. And then when I do reports like that, I talk about my personal story. I mean, my daughter's half Mexican. Her name is Jimena. My mom's first generation, her parents crossed the border. And I talk about how it's affecting her community in East LA and how people are very worried there. And so I also bring in a level of personalization so that my audience knows that I'm not just a robot, like apparently Donald Trump thinks former President Biden is, and that I'm a real living human being, and here's what I'm going through and make a connection on that basis.
- [38:18]
Nicole Wallace
Also, what's it like for your families for you guys to be. Be so huge all of a. Not suddenly. I know it's been a build, but what is it like for your families?
- [38:29]
Jordi Meiselas
I think our parents are excited about it. I think. I think they. What I think they like most about it, or I know they like most about it, is that we're doing it together, and we're doing it as brothers, and we're doing it with the values and beliefs that they instilled in us growing up, and we're putting that into the network and to see it resonating on such a wide scale.
- [38:45]
Ben Meiselas
They're proud.
- [38:45]
Jordi Meiselas
They're proud, for sure.
- [38:46]
Ben Meiselas
The funny thing, Nicole, I was just gonna say we all work out of our homes and our rooms, and I think don't go out much. And so just leaving the question kind of makes me laugh because I have to sort of accept the fact that this is a very big platform and things. And when we do go out, it is cool when folks come over and say, oh, your podcast is the best. Thank you so much for your channel and all that stuff. But, you know, every day, like, we're just, you know, kind of putting our heads down and doing everything. I think our parents are super, you know, psyched about us all working together, like Jordi said.
- [39:23]
Nicole Wallace
We'll be right back with more of my conversation with the Meisellis brothers. Stay right.
- [39:41]
Ashley Flowers
Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers, creator and host of the number one true crime podcast, Crime Junkie. Every Monday, me and my best friend Britt break down a new case, but not in the way you've heard before and not the cases you've heard before. You'll hear stories on crime Junkie that haven't been told anywhere else. I'll tell you what you can do to help victims and their families get justice. Join us for new episodes of Crime Junkie every Monday. Already waiting for you by searching for Crime Junkie wherever you listen to podcast podcasts.
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- [41:37]
Brett Meiselas
Visit endurancewarranty.com for your fast free quote today. That's endurancewarranty.com.
- [41:50]
Nicole Wallace
What is the magic of the brother piece?
- [41:56]
Brett Meiselas
Ben Jordi, you're the empath. The empath of us. An empath.
- [42:02]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, you had to write that first time. I can see that.
- [42:04]
Brett Meiselas
Yeah, you're the empath.
- [42:07]
Jordi Meiselas
I think it works so well because we, we know each other's strengths and we know each other's weaknesses very well. And that was just inherent. You know, we're very fortunate. We're a team and we've been a team well our whole lives. And that's, you know, when we were growing up we would make films and you know, in our front yard or whatever or movies and things like that for school projects. And we're always Working various ways. And we always wanted to work together. And life just took us in various directions. Ben with law, Brett with digital, me with my marketing background. And then when Covid happened, we were able to combine these skill sets and our past working behaviors with each other. Sure, I get teased a lot by the brothers, but I got thick skin for it, and I think it made me a stronger person. And we combine these skills and we just put it all into the network. And fortunately, there were skills that played off of each other very well. And look, we're brothers that genuinely love each other. And we really view this as an incredible opportunity, not just for us, but something that we could really do for this country and for just generations to come. Not just for our kids, but for kids down the line. A media network that's not just competing with Fox News, but surpassing Fox News. So we're incredibly serious about it is what we're doing. But at the end of the day, too, we are brothers. And we get to have our little brother banter here and there. And it's very familial. But that familialness that we have with the brothers, that's exactly what comes into the network. And I think that's what this pro democracy audience, or the Midas mighty as they call themselves, that's what they feel too. They feel this sense of family and community. And that's the biggest thing.
- [43:42]
Ben Meiselas
Yeah, I mean, what is a community ultimately, but a big family? And so, you know, we actually start it, you know, at its core, with. With the family element. And I think when we do these reports and when folks go and they listen to the Midas Touch podcast and they hear us, you know, bantering or bickering or you're, you know, reporting on what's going on that day and analyzing everything, you know, I hope it lets kind of folks into our family a little and makes it clear that this is not necessarily about any one of us individually, but about kind of us as a collective. And that we all have the same missions and that we all want what's best for the country. And we may have disagreements here or there, but ultimately we all have our kind of guiding North Star. That we want normalcy, we want an end to the chaos, and that we're all in this together.
- [44:25]
Jordi Meiselas
It's always funny when people ask us about us. Cause I feel like that's when we get the most read.
- [44:29]
Nicole Wallace
I hate talking. Yeah, those are the worst questions. I'm sorry. I'm sorry I asked any of them. So let me try to Hijack your genius for my day ahead. Like, what is your editorial process? How do you look at all the shit that's happened since you've. I mean, and I guess some of it is your intervals, right? Like, you're out there, you're responsive to the news. Like, I'm on when I'm on, and that seems like an important piece of it. But what is your editorial process?
- [44:59]
Brett Meiselas
We have a full editorial team. It's led by Ron Filipkowski, who's our editor.
- [45:03]
Ben Meiselas
And.
- [45:04]
Brett Meiselas
And then we have a guy named Acen who does all of the clips of everything from congressional hearings to big speeches, two clips from your show and other shows. And, you know, he breaks them down into the 92nd, you know, to two minute highlights of the most important things from the shows. But we have a full fledged editorial team of about eight people, and they go through everything and we're on a group chat with them. I refuse to. What's the thing that you all want me to be on?
- [45:34]
Ben Meiselas
Slack.
- [45:34]
Brett Meiselas
Ben Slack refused to do Slack. And so we're on a group text message. So I'm on like, I'm on like 35 different text message threads for people versus one Slack.
- [45:44]
Nicole Wallace
Has Hagstaff added you to.
- [45:46]
Ben Meiselas
I mean, come on. We have not been into any war planche chats, unfortunately, but we're still waiting on the day.
- [45:52]
Nicole Wallace
Okay.
- [45:52]
Brett Meiselas
It'll come on my iPhone. I probably have, I want to say 30,000. I take screenshots.
- [45:59]
Nicole Wallace
I take screenshots, too. Yeah, we are dinosaurs.
- [46:03]
Brett Meiselas
And then I look at the screenshots and then I kind of storyboard board.
- [46:07]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah.
- [46:09]
Ben Meiselas
Nicole, do you also then write over the screenshots in decipherable. Scribble your notes and then give them to the rest of the team and hope that we understand it like it's some sort of a Beautiful Mind.
- [46:20]
Nicole Wallace
I'm proud of that. I'm going to take the fifth, but I have, I mean, I think that everyone has their own methods, and I appreciate that you shared them because obviously the end product is so, so perfect. I want to ask you guys if you have advice for us, those of us still in the traditional media, but eager to be as connected to our viewers as you guys are.
- [46:45]
Brett Meiselas
Brett?
- [46:45]
Ben Meiselas
Well, I think ultimately, you know, whether you're at a, you know, huge company or whether you're starting on your own, I think it's about you as an individual. Right. I think the, you know, the anchors, the reporters, the, the people who are using their voice are often the people who have the power and who have that connection with. And so I think you have to know your audience, you have to have respect for your audience and you have to understand they're coming to you because they trust you. It's a world of such fragmented media where people do have a choice to get their information from a billion different sources that are being thrown at them every day. So why are they coming to you? And I think ultimately, if you could kind of answer that why, or at least hover around that why, I think it's super helpful and I certainly do not need to be giving advice to you. You have the number one show and you're the best.
- [47:33]
Nicole Wallace
I'm always trying to, but I think it's this mom where and I always say this, all the news is on their phone. So they already know what happened, what are we doing. And I mean, Rachel's our North Star here. And I mean, I think a lot of those stories that you covered, she also lifted up. And a lot of the local coverage has been unbelievable on this front because it is by and large stripped of all partisan affiliation. It's what you do. It's just the information. But I think this is a moment where if we don't sort of dig down and make sure we know that we're doing everything intelligently. I also think that all of us leaning on each other and lifting up the pro democracy side media politics, if you look at countries that have made it, and I want to ask all of you if you think we're going to make it as a democracy, but they've banded together and they don't view other folks inside the pro democracy side as competition. They're sharing best practices and that's where I think we could all benefit from what you guys think.
- [48:35]
Ben Meiselas
It's funny you talk about competition because I've never viewed, you know, when people ever ask like, who's your competition? I never really have a good answer for that in terms of like in the space because I'm always happy when others are kind of entering it and when others are coming out with their podcasts or going onto YouTube and stuff. In my opinion, it's kind of like, you know, a rising tide lifts all boats sort of thing, where ultimately everyone's going to be watching each other's stuff anyway. So if someone can bring their audience into this new platform or this platform that we already exist on, then, you know, then that's great. But I think one of the big things too also comes to an issue of prioritization. And as Ben kind of hit on earlier, people are scared Right now, and rightfully so. And people feel pain. And people are watching rights that they've maybe taken for granted for a long time being stripped away from them. Some people maybe were told their entire life, you go to college, you get a degree, you'll be able to have a job and have a family and have a couple of vacations a year, and you get to live the American dream. It's not happening for a lot of people right now. And so I think in a world where people are focused, you know, so much on these issues and they're watching what's happening every day from, you know, what's going on inside this White House, and just the callousness and the, you know, the very like, you know, whatever hurts the libs is what we want to do. And just tearing families apart and ripping away people's health insurance and all these things that people have serious fears over. And then if somebody goes ahead and focuses on an issue that may be popular in the Beltway but isn't quite popular, isn't quite what people are speaking about at their home, I think people just lose a lot of faith, and you lose a lot of trust in it. So I think one of the things that we always try to do is just remain laser focused on what we think are kind of the real biggest issues. What our audience is really concerned about, worried about actions we could take. And I think that's a big driving factor.
- [50:24]
Nicole Wallace
Are you guys optimistic? Are you optimistic that you're on the side? That we're on the side that's gonna win?
- [50:31]
Brett Meiselas
I'm very optimistic because I think by now Trump and Musk thought that they would have crushed all opposition and resistan. I think they felt very confident when they had all the people going to Mar a Lago and kissing the ring at first, that they had it all under control. I think people really, up until February, just didn't even wanna look at it. And there was this sense of, would there be a resistance? Would there be an opposition? And I think right now, the opposition, the resistance to this authoritarian regime, which is what I call it, I think, think is stronger than ever. I think it's stronger than it was during the first term. I think it's gonna continue to get stronger. I mean, look, I'm sad to see essential services get destroyed. It pains me to see the suffering that has happened and that will inevitably continue to happen based on decisions already made and what'll happen in the future. I'm not naive to the challenges or that the effort is going to be. Is Full fledged authoritarianism at the end of the day. But I am confident that the opposition and resistance continues to grow, that the regime continues to weaken and that these values that made us really the United States of America, starting with democracy and being a melting pot and actually having communities that lift each other up versus punch each other down, I think those values ultimately prevail, although it's not going to be easy.
- [52:12]
Nicole Wallace
What do you worry about most? I mean, have they come for you guys seeing your power and your connection and your numbers to talk in terms of.
- [52:22]
Brett Meiselas
But I don't worry about that. I don't worry. Yes. And frequently. And there are death threats frequently. There's. I don't even wanna get into some of the stuff to give anybody ideas of what they could do. But see, it even makes my dog sitting.
- [52:38]
Nicole Wallace
I was gonna say when your dog does.
- [52:41]
Brett Meiselas
But the personal side of it has never been a factor. The part that gets me worried and upset are things like what happens during hurricane season when FEMA is significantly reduced. What's gonna happen if there's another serious. And they're already, already is with new strands of COVID and measles outbreaks and E. Coli. What happens when you have RFK Jr covering up data and statistics. And that's what worries me more than anything kind of personal.
- [53:15]
Nicole Wallace
If we had another. I was thinking this. If we had another pandemic. I think the information ecosystem is different than it was even the first time Trump was there. And I think you talk about building a community around trust. You've also brought in experts and expertise. And I wonder if you've done any sort of scenarios where if something. I mean, the hurricanes are a perfect example. I mean they've got people involved in emergency response who don't know anything about the emergencies. Do you feel more responsibility as they're purging the experts out of the government?
- [53:52]
Brett Meiselas
Yeah. It's why we are leaning into. As we build the platform, build all of these extensions so you references Midas health, led by Dr. Vin Gupta, who's so on. And it gives him a format in an hour to bring the top scientists, the top epidemiologists and they can speak to the audience. And rather than reinvent the wheel and create a whole other podcast for it, we bring that right onto our podcast feed. And we don't look to those endeavors as saying is this going to be profitable or not profitable? We view it as that's part the of. Of the mission. Get the best science out there in front of the people and this may save lives and so when you talk about scaling, we scale all of these channels, but we also start planting all of these other seeds, thinking not just rapid response for 24 hours, but what are we going to do 2, 5, 10, 15 years from now? And our plan is more of a 15, 30 year plan. The way we've always thought about things is what's gonna happen in 2032 and 2036 and where are we then versus where are we gonna be in a specific election cycle?
- [55:06]
Nicole Wallace
Where are we gonna be in 2032?
- [55:09]
Brett Meiselas
Well, I think in 2032 we will be back where we should be. I mean, I think people will recognize all of the horrible things when they've seen Project 2025 in play. And my view going back to the last question, where I'm optimistic is I think we embrace diversity, I think we embarrass, embrace that climate change is a real thing. And we, you know, and again, it's gonna be a bumpy ride to get there, but I think whoever's gonna emerge from the Democratic Party is gonna be unequivocal, no, equivocating, you know, and stand for these things, and that's what's gonna be a winner. I think that's where people wanna go. You know, I think it's gonna take a lot of work for America to regain trust in the international community. That ain't gonna be easy. I mean, but I'm confident in our future.
- [56:01]
Nicole Wallace
You guys have been so generous with your time. I could talk to you all day long. Can we do this again, please?
- [56:08]
Brett Meiselas
Please?
- [56:08]
Ben Meiselas
Anytime. Congrats again on the show. We're so happy that you started it and it's really an honor to be on.
- [56:15]
Nicole Wallace
Oh, the honor is all mine, Jordi. I feel like I could help you with some pranks as the end of.
- [56:21]
Jordi Meiselas
The day, we could give them back. We can for sure get them back.
- [56:25]
Nicole Wallace
I don't know, I just, I feel like we could, we could, you know, have a side, A side chat. A side chat for all your group chat.
- [56:31]
Jordi Meiselas
I, I, I like that. Yes, please.
- [56:34]
Ben Meiselas
He's gonna need one.
- [56:35]
Brett Meiselas
I'm all for it.
- [56:36]
Nicole Wallace
Thank you, guys.
- [56:36]
Brett Meiselas
Thank you so much.
- [56:38]
Nicole Wallace
Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the best people. Be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to get, get this and other MSNBC podcasts ad free as a subscriber. You'll also get early access and exclusive bonus content. If you've been enjoying our conversations with the best people, be sure to rate and review the show. Your reviews will help others discover the best people. Also, all episodes of the podcast are available on YouTube as well. Visit msnbc.com the best people to Watch the Best People is produced by Vicki Bergelina and senior producer Lisa Ferrie. Our audio engineer is Bob Mallory, and Bryson Barnes is the head of audio production, Pat Burkey is the senior executive producer of Deadline White House, and Aisha Turner is the executive producer of MSNBC Audio. Search for the Best People in the Cold Wallace where wherever you get your podcast and follow the whole series.
- [57:57]
Ashley Flowers
Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers, creator and host of the number one true crime podcast Crime Junkie. Every Monday, me and my best friend Britt break down a new case, but not in the way you've heard before and not the cases you've heard before. You'll hear stories on Crime Junkie that haven't been told anywhere else. I'll tell you what you can do to help victims and their families get justice. Join us for new episodes of Crime Junkie every Monday. Already waiting for you by searching for Crime Junkie. Wherever you listen to podcasts.