Doc Rivers Refuses to Shut Up and Dribble

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Doc Rivers Refuses to Shut Up and Dribble"

The Best People with Nicolle Wallace features an in-depth conversation between host Nicolle Wallace and Milwaukee Bucks head coach Doc Rivers. Released on June 16, 2025, this episode delves into the intersection of sports, politics, and social activism, exploring how resilience and leadership in sports can inform and influence the political landscape.

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1. Introduction to Doc Rivers' Political Aspirations

[02:25]
Doc Rivers expresses his interest in politics, stating, “If I wasn't in basketball, what you don't know about me is I think I would be in politics.” This sets the tone for the episode, highlighting his passion for leadership both on and off the court.

2. Resilience in Sports and Politics

[03:15]
Rivers draws parallels between sports and politics, emphasizing the importance of resilience. He shares his experiences of overcoming defeats, saying, “you have to stay in the arena and keep at it.” This mindset, he believes, is crucial for achieving success in both fields.

3. Challenges Facing the Democratic Party

[05:05]
The conversation shifts to the Democratic Party's struggles, with Rivers highlighting the need for inclusivity and change: “The norm has not worked. The norm worked in the popular vote, but there are states that haven't voted for the Democratic side in 50 years.” He underscores the necessity for the party to adapt and unify diverse groups to foster meaningful change.

4. Voter Engagement and Black Men's Influence

[08:54]
Rivers addresses the critical role of voter turnout, particularly among Black men. He remarks, “We have more people to vote... we have to make them excited. We have to connect to them.” He acknowledges feelings of hopelessness within the community but emphasizes the importance of reigniting political engagement.

5. The Impact of Transgender Athlete Discussions on Politics

[12:03]
The conversation delves into how issues like transgender athletes are politicized, with Rivers stating, “These are all the questions that we ask. I don't think we're doing that.” He criticizes the superficial handling of such topics, arguing for more substantial and thoughtful engagement.

6. The Power of Studying Opponents

[13:04]
Rivers emphasizes the importance of understanding and analyzing opponents, drawing from his sports background: “In sports, if you don't know what you're up against, you're not going to beat anyone.” He suggests that a similar strategic approach is necessary in politics to effectively counter opposing movements.

7. Media Influence and Public Perception

[15:56]
Discussing media portrayal, Rivers notes, “The Republicans have done an amazing job... they don't worry about the masses.” He critiques how media narratives shape public perception, particularly regarding economic policies and wealth distribution.

8. Overcoming Political Polarization

[19:06]
After a brief pause for advertisements, the discussion resumes with an exploration of political polarization. Rivers expresses frustration with the current state of civility in politics, mentioning, “The civility in politics is gone. It's nasty what they did to Obama.”

9. The Role of Young Athletes in Political Discourse

[23:10]
Rivers highlights the lack of political engagement among younger athletes, attributing it to their focus on personal careers: “Most of them, they're not registered.” He encourages greater political involvement, stressing that politics matter and affect every aspect of life.

10. Embracing Passion and Purpose in Sports and Politics

[24:54]
The conversation shifts to the significance of passion in both sports and political activism. Rivers shares a poignant moment during Obama's election, illustrating how shared passion can unite and inspire individuals: “What makes our country great is we just had this discussion and we can.”

11. Teaching History and Combating Ignorance

[43:18]
Rivers underscores the importance of historical education in preventing the repetition of past injustices: “We've learned if you don't study history, you repeat it.” He draws comparisons to Germany’s post-Holocaust reckoning, advocating for a similar approach in the U.S. regarding slavery and racial history.

12. Optimism for the Future

[52:00]
Despite the challenges discussed, Rivers maintains an optimistic outlook. He believes in the resilience of the American spirit and the potential for positive change: “What you do is fantastic. That's the way I look at it.”

13. Celebrating Achievements and Personal Moments

[53:02]
Rivers reflects on his proudest moments of the year, including winning the in-season tournament and witnessing the personal growth of his young players. A particularly touching moment involves Pat Connaughton, a veteran player who scored 43 points after persevering through limited playing time, exemplifying dedication and resilience: “He gets a shot. And so that might have been one of my best moments.”

14. Balancing Emotional Investment and Professionalism

[54:05]
Rivers discusses the balance between emotional attachment to players and maintaining professionalism. He advises new coaches to “pour in” emotionally, understanding that not every player will resonate with their coaching style, but it's essential for building strong relationships.

15. The Intersection of Sports and Political Activism

[47:20]
Addressing the role of sports in political activism, Rivers advocates for player involvement: “We have to have passion in something, to really speak on something. And we need our players somehow to be compassionate about this.” He believes that sports figures have a unique platform to influence and inspire societal change.

16. Concluding Thoughts on Truth and Integrity

[48:24]
Rivers stresses the importance of unwavering commitment to truth: “We have to make the truth the solid truth. And somehow those things. I mean, the fact that there are people that said that there was no Holocaust. I mean, and there's millions of people who believe that. How does that happen?” He calls for a collective effort to uphold and disseminate factual truth amidst widespread misinformation.

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Notable Quotes:

• Resilience in the Arena:
  Doc Rivers ([03:15]): “You have to stay in the arena and keep at it.”

• Voter Excitement and Connection:
  Doc Rivers ([08:54]): “We have to make them excited. We have to connect to them.”

• Compassion in Leadership:
  Doc Rivers ([47:05]): “You have to figure that out. And I have no answers.”

• The Power of Truth:
  Doc Rivers ([47:55]): “It's four. It's nothing else. And there's certain things that have actually happened, and we don't need an interpretation.”

• Optimism and American Resilience:
  Doc Rivers ([52:00]): “What you do is fantastic. That's the way I look at it.”

---

Conclusion

In this episode, Doc Rivers articulates a vision where the principles of sportsmanship—resilience, teamwork, and strategic thinking—are seamlessly integrated into the political realm. He emphasizes the urgent need for the Democratic Party to unify diverse voices, increase voter engagement, and confront misinformation with unwavering truth. Rivers' insights champion the idea that the best people lead by example, fostering environments where truth, decency, and connection can thrive amidst societal challenges.

For those who missed the conversation, this episode offers a compelling exploration of how athletic leadership can inform political activism, urging listeners to remain engaged, informed, and resilient in the pursuit of a better society.

Transcript

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[Doc Rivers]

Wasn't that delicious? So good.

[Nicole Wallace]

Your bill, ladies.

[Doc Rivers]

I got it. No, I got it.

[Pat Connaughton]

Seriously, I insist.

[Nicole Wallace]

I insisted first. Don't be silly.

[Pat Connaughton]

You'll be silly.

[Wells Fargo]

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[Doc Rivers]

Okay.

[Pat Connaughton]

Rock, paper, scissors for it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Rock, paper, scissors.

[Doc Rivers]

Shoot, shoot.

[Nicole Wallace]

No.

[Wells Fargo]

The Wells Fargo active cash credit card terms apply.

[Doc Rivers]

Do you vote for someone for what it does for you or what it does for people who you care about?

[Nicole Wallace]

It's gotta be the latter, right? But I think we're stuck in the first. And I think, like. And I think that. And I think maybe we're playing two different games, right? Maybe that's why we keep losing. Hi, everyone. The best people with Nicole Wallace. When I set out to have a podcast, one of the things I wanted to do was inch my way ever closer to my most favorite sport. Because if I were not a cable news host, if I weren't lucky enough to have that job and this one as a new podcaster, I would do everything in my power to work anywhere near the NBA for a team. In the front office, in the laundry room. Maybe not the laundry room. You know what I'm saying? One of the people I love watching in the NBA is current head coach of the Milwaukee Bucks, Doc Rivers. He won a championship for the Celtics. He's not afraid to use his voice when it is necessary and helpful. So we were thrilled to get to talk to him for this episode. This is the Best People with Nicole Wallace. And this is Doc Rivers. Thank you so much for making time for us today.

[Doc Rivers]

Oh, thank you, Nicole. Thanks for having me. Number one. And if I wasn't in basketball, what you don't know about me is I think I would be in politics.

[Nicole Wallace]

I think so, too.

[Doc Rivers]

Or maybe I would cover politics. I think that's the safer route. But I'm not so sure anymore about that.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, the last time we talked, I was wearing a we the people sweater, and you were wearing. I think it was real. Men vote for a woman, right? Yeah.

[Doc Rivers]

Yeah.

[Nicole Wallace]

And we had so much hope, and it didn't go our way.

[Doc Rivers]

And that went so well. That went really well for us.

[Nicole Wallace]

It didn't go our way. But I wonder, what from sports? What from the highest level of one of the most intense sports on the planet, do you know, from a game or a season not going your way that the pro democracy side might apply to this political moment?

[Doc Rivers]

Yeah, it does. You know, I guess the difference is, you know, in sports, you have defeat. You know, I've lost three, three one leads as a coach, you know, and I wouldn't trade them for the world. Like, those experiences are part of you, and it's why you keep doing it. But the resiliency that, that you have to have in life and in sports is what eventually will get you to the top. And so I looked at that, doing this run, and, you know, we're so hopeful. I think we learned a lot of things. We're not as powerful as we all think we are. Maybe some people listen to you, but what you learn a lot and same thing in coaching. The ones who want to listen to you are the ones who are listening to you, and the ones who don't want to listen to you, they don't hear you. And I have that sometimes with some of my players. Like, once they tune out to what you're saying, they tune out. And, and, and so you have to try it at a different angle. You have to keep at it, though. And eventually. There's been so many times in my coaching career where I've had players who have kind of tone out or, or they didn't want the role that I wanted for them, but you just can't give up on it. You know, you got to stay in the arena. You know, the man in the arena. You have to stay in the arena and keep at it. And that's what's, that's what's so hard to do sometimes.

[Nicole Wallace]

When you went to the Celtics, you put a. The light on the wall. I love that. I think that's like, that's how I'm thinking about this, right? Like, where is the wall and what is the light pointing toward? Because it feels like it can't just be the next election, right? Like, what are we, what are we pointing toward right now at this moment as a country?

[Doc Rivers]

Well, the first thing we have to point towards is getting out of our comfort zone and thinking that if we keep doing the same thing, that they're going to be different results. That doesn't happen. There needs to be change from the Democratic side. I don't know what that change is. But I know the norm has not worked. The norm worked in the popular vote, but there are states that hasn't vote in the democratic side in 50 years. But some are leaning that way. So what are we doing that creates that? What are we saying? We have to. We are a party of a. Being exclusive. Everybody's included. Right. But, you know, I remember Cory Booker. We're at a function, and I asked him, why can't the Democrats all agree on something? Because the Republicans do that. Well, like, some of the things. Yeah, you have to look at some of the things they do. Well, one of the things they do is they fall in line. They don't care. You know, if you listen to some of the things some of these guys said about Trump, and then when you hear them speak now, all they do is praise. They're falling in line. But he said something interesting. He said, we have so many different groups on our side. We don't just have the white male. We have everybody. And to get everyone to agree on one thing is very difficult. But we're gonna have to start doing that if we want change.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, though, I spent some time with folks close to Obama after the defeat in November. And what they reminded me of is that outside of the White House, every day of Obama's presidency was a protester from inside the coalition. So because of the rapid rate of deportations, there were immigration protests outside the Obama White House. I mean, he was not afraid of making his own side mad sometimes to keep the majority of Americans behind his presidency.

[Doc Rivers]

Yeah, I thought Clinton did that as well.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Doc Rivers]

You know, Clinton got criticized as much from his own people as he did from others. Forget to scandal stuff. I'm just saying, sometimes he decided that he had to negotiate. And so you didn't get everything that you wanted that you thought you were going to get or that he said on the stomping grounds, but you got some of it. And that is compromise. They always say the best law is when both people come from it unhappy. That usually means you got something good, not bad.

[Nicole Wallace]

So what is the conversation that people in politics should be having to understand? You know, it's almost become sort of too shorthanded. Right. The manosphere. And Trump won because he played in the manosphere and the liberals were emasculating men. What does that mean? And where do Democrats go from here?

[Doc Rivers]

I think we need to take the because out. And I'm serious. Like, Trump won and start there, not because Trump won. What do we have to do different? You have to take Ownership of things, Nicole, we do it in sports all the time. Yeah, I come in after a game we lost because. But then I say we lost, but we have to do these things differently if we want to win. We can't say, well, we lost because they just made a lot of shots. All right, well, then we have to force them to miss more shots. You have to do something different. It's so strange. We're blaming the people who voted for Trump for why he won. And it makes no sense to me.

[Nicole Wallace]

Backwards.

[Doc Rivers]

Yeah, it's backwards. We didn't get enough people out to vote. That's one thing. So we have to figure out first, start with ourselves. How can we ignite ourselves, our side, to vote more? Because we have more people to vote.

[Nicole Wallace]

What's the answer?

[Doc Rivers]

We have to make them excited. We have to connect to them. And, like, we're not connecting. You know, we complain about black men. You know, the majority of black men did vote for Kamala, as it turned out. It's just that there wasn't a big majority. It wasn't enough people.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right.

[Doc Rivers]

And so why is that? And there's a feel of hopelessness in our community, because I think a lot of black men are saying now, it doesn't matter either side. We're not being helped. We're still being incarcerated. We still are struggling. So there's gotta be an answer. And we have to figure out how we can answer that question if we're looking at that part of it for sure.

[Nicole Wallace]

What? I mean, you're right, though. I mean, black men aren't the reason that Trump won. I mean, they came out in larger numbers than white men. What is all the pressure? I mean, we've looked at the last three elections for black men and women, really black women as well, to save the country from Trump.

[Doc Rivers]

Yeah, it should be all of us. You know, number one. And, you know, we have to get more white men to vote, too. You know, and I hate, like, it shouldn't be about race, and it really shouldn't be. It should be about whoever the better candidate is. But we've gotten off of that somehow.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, in sports, you're always scouting the other team. And because I was an ex Republican, I've always been a student of maga. I can't stop watching Steve Bannon to try to understand the risks within maga. And Musk is this thing that really wasn't on the ballot. And so as I try to look for the weaknesses in the coalition, I'm a student of the Bannon, Musk Fractures. But there's not a ton of scouting. Right. That goes on in maga. And if you're gonna beat him, if you're gonna beat that movement in four. Um, and. And I. I think it's a lot of vibes. I. I think it's. It's some creativity to give them due credit. It's some audacity. Um, it's some lawlessness. Right. Like judges are saying they do, but it's a lot of vibes. And how do you. If you want to beat a team or a movement that's got a lot of momentum, that's just vibes. How do you. How do you. How do you become a student of that and then beat it?

[Doc Rivers]

You know, it's so funny you said that, because I had a big discussion with my daughter Callie, who is big into politics, and, you know, she was crushed when Kamala. I mean, she was crying and doing the election. Because I'm living in Milwaukee. Right. And I'm watching the ads, and I. I wish Callie was on, because I caught her. And I'm not exaggerating 50 times. Like, we're not answering to these ads. Well, it's beneath us. Or it's silly.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Doc Rivers]

I'm telling you, Nicole, every 10 minutes, it was a. It's a transgender ad.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. Unanswered.

[Doc Rivers]

Yeah, unanswered. And, you know, half the things that they were saying came into law when Trump was in the presidency the first time. Yeah, but we thought no one cares about that. Yeah, Middle America does care.

[Nicole Wallace]

That's.

[Doc Rivers]

They still are on it. I turned to Fox, and they're talking about transgender people playing in Sports. There's only 10 that have ever played in college sports.

[Nicole Wallace]

Two right now.

[Doc Rivers]

Yeah, two. But they know that's what stokes people. That's what gets people talking. You hear people who are pretty smart people. Sage Steele has gone nuts about transgender athletes. It connects.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Doc Rivers]

But we don't think that that's an issue. And so we study our opponent every game. I just got out of an analytical meeting that lasted two hours. Every single number that they've ever done is what we're studying to try to take advantage of, to try to figure out, well, why do they do this? Well, I mean, those are all the questions that we ask. I don't think we're doing that. And until we do, you're not going to beat anyone in anything, especially in sports, if you don't know what you're up against.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's not just knowing it, and it's respecting it. It's Just, you know, and when I, when I worked for Bush in the early days, I was a student of all the Clinton campaigns because they were the highest level that campaigning ever was. And then I knew. Right. And Stephanopoulos, and I know from the Obama people who came after Bush that they were students of what Bush did. Well, and some of what Trump does is so outrageous, such a shock jock, and so offensive. I think Democrats and pro democracy Republicans come to their disapproval of him honestly and legitimately and in some ways, too slowly. Right. I mean, he's been this person the whole time. But I think there's a different mindset on the field where you have to try to defeat this movement that, to your point, is gaining steam, not losing steam. And I wonder, as sort of a student of the psychology of Mumbai momentum, what's your counsel for Democrats?

[Doc Rivers]

Yeah, we get lost in Trump at times. You know, I don't know if it's purposeful or not. I think it is. Today is Monday, Nicole. Tuesday. There's going to be something that he says or does that we're talking about, but the thing that happened on Sunday is still more important. But we forget about Sunday and we go to the thing he just said on Tuesday, and that's what we cover and talk about. And then let's say by Wednesday or Thursday, he's on to something else. We don't stick to it. If you've fallen something that has given you momentum, don't. Don't change course the next day because he did something different. You got to stay the course. You got to stay on things. And I just, I think we, we lose our discipline very easy with, with Trump. You know, I keep hearing, like. And I hear people say the guy's a buffoon. I bet I've never heard that word more about a president of the United States than with Trump. And what I keep saying is, well, he can't be because he's the president and he's won twice. And not only did he win twice, he's got 70 million people that believe it the other way. So maybe we're the ones that are the fools and we need to wake up.

[Nicole Wallace]

Do you see anyone in the Democratic Party that approaches this with any discipline that impresses you as opposed to not.

[Doc Rivers]

Yet, you know, because it's just too early. There's a lot of people, I mean, Cory Booker, even, but not yet. I think someone will come out. They always do. We didn't see Obama coming. You know, as a matter of fact, I was a fan of Senator Obama, and I Talked to him a couple times because he loves basketball. And when he decided to run, my first thought, no, no, it's too early. You know, that was my first thought. Can I say something on the economy, though?

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Doc Rivers]

I think it's the greatest marketing coup in the history of marketing on what the Republicans have done. It's proven that on the Democratic presidents, the economy is always better.

[Nicole Wallace]

Always. I heard that, having worked for Republicans, always the opposite of what Republicans say.

[Doc Rivers]

It's unbelievable. You know, when Obama came into office, the economy was in the trash. He really lifted it up and Trump adopted that, you know, but what is it, 50 years or whatever, 50 million new votes, new jobs by Democrats, 1 million by Republicans over the last 50 years. It's amazing. But we don't address it. We do the economy well, yet no one hears that. What we probably don't do well, we don't do the rich well. And the super rich, they line up because of the tax cuts that they know they're going to get. But what the Republicans have done, that's amazing is they don't, the masses don't understand that's not them. They're not included in that. What the Democrats have done includes everybody. What the Republicans have done, really, the 1 percenters.

[Nicole Wallace]

But Trump is almost like that on steroids, right? Because Trump has said to the billionaire, at least in the oil industry, you know, help me out, give me money and I'll help you specifically. It's almost like that dynamic you just described, plus some corruption on top of. And he has more support among sort of people that aspire to be wealthy than all the Republicans that came before him. It's almost like the more audacious the marketing, to use your word, the more support he gets among people whose interests are not served by what he ends up doing.

[Doc Rivers]

Yeah, and I've gotten over the disappointment. I was at a place at times during the election or if you're a friend of Trump, I'm not talking to you. I was disappointed. I belong to several golf clubs and they're usually Republican based. And some of these guys are my friends. And I stopped golf. I was with them. The gree part of it bothered me, okay, you may get a 1% tax cut, like how greedy are you? But it's human nature, it really is. But you're right, even those people aren't getting help. It's the super, super rich that really are getting help. And somehow we have to connect that. Somehow we have to get people to see what the economy really is, as they would say. For the masses. And somehow we've dropped the ball in that.

[Nicole Wallace]

We'll take a quick pause here. When we we come back more with Milwaukee Bucks head coach Doc Rivers. Back in a moment.

[Doc Rivers]

Wasn't that delicious? So good.

[Nicole Wallace]

Your bill, ladies.

[On Deck]

I got it.

[Doc Rivers]

No, I got it.

[Pat Connaughton]

Seriously, I insist.

[Nicole Wallace]

I insisted first.

[Pat Connaughton]

Don't be silly.

[Wells Fargo]

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[Doc Rivers]

Okay.

[Pat Connaughton]

Rock, paper, scissors for it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Rock, paper, scissors.

[Doc Rivers]

Shoot.

[Nicole Wallace]

No.

[Wells Fargo]

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[Nicole Wallace]

What do you think? Think about the sort of analysis that the Democratic brand is so damaged. I mean, I've been resistant to politics as brands because I always think you're one leader away from that. Totally turning. I don't think the Republican brand is that great. People just really like Donald Trump. What do you don't believe it?

[Doc Rivers]

Don't believe it. We go too far with that because you hit the point we are one step away from a leader that we don't know right now to being right back. You know, and I will say this, and I'm more like you in this. If the Republican candidate was a better candidate, I'd vote for him.

[Nicole Wallace]

Really?

[Doc Rivers]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm a Democrat, but I'm also an American. At the end of the day, we don't root for our country right now. Somehow we have become a sport Politics and you root for your team. I'm a Bears. Chicago Bears fanatic. And I don't care how good or bad that they've been, I'm still gonna be a Bears fan, and I'm still gonna vote for the Bears. If I was using that politically, because, you know, I grew up in Chicago. You know, that's who I am. I must confess, I grew up a Nick fan in Chicago, which is really strange.

[Nicole Wallace]

There's, like a support group for people like you.

[Doc Rivers]

But you know what? I' that's where we are now. But it would have to be a guy that's way better than my candidate. I will say that.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, yeah.

[Doc Rivers]

But there's just something there now. You know, Tip O' Neill would go off on the Republicans, and then 20 minutes later, they were having dinner. The civility in politics is gone. It's nasty what they did to Obama. The first time I've ever heard a president get booed in chamber. You know, Marjorie is yelling stuff.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Doc Rivers]

And then we have the one guy that stands up and they make. It's just amazing, the difference in how it's going.

[Nicole Wallace]

Asymmetry. Yeah, it's amazing. What do you think about the league? I think it took a bit in Trump's first term, but there was a lot of. And there were different things happening. I don't like the comparison that. That the players are silent, you know, in Trump 2.0. But what do you. Do you talk. Do players talk about Trump? Do they talk about politics? Is it. Is it sort of like, let's wait a minute. Is it too fraught? Like, where is everybody?

[Doc Rivers]

I would say not as many as I would like. I think our league is very young right now, and that's the difference. They don't even care, most of them. You know, they're too busy trying to create their own careers and their jobs. You know, it's so funny for the election, the veteran players. Brooke Lopez, you know, wanted to talk politics. Pat Connaughton wanted to talk politics. Chris Middleton, who I thought was. Was very involved in politics, you know, but if you go to the young guys, they're not registered. Most of them.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Doc Rivers]

You know, and so, you know, it's funny, as a coach, you take on more than just coaching. You try to get them to be involved in politics. And I always tell them, I don't care what side I do, but I don't. I just want you to get involved, care. Because politics matter. And I hate. Well, politics aren't part of my life. And I always say that's not true. Everything you do is part of your life and you need to be involved in it.

[Nicole Wallace]

When you talked before the election, you had a great line. I think I stole it. You may not think that you're into politics, but politics is into you. But you know, to the other part of the conversation, there's so much marketing that maybe is just makes it turns it into three dimensional chess when it's whack a mole on the other side. And I wonder how you get that intensity to pull in young people. I mean, the league is full of exactly the kind of people that you need to care. You know, young, successful people who know discipline, people who know greatness, people who have ties to their community, people who people look up to. You know, if they don't care, then we're nowheresville.

[Doc Rivers]

Yeah. People who have a million Instagram followers.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. You know, that sounds a million dollars.

[Doc Rivers]

A million dollars, you know, but, but it's so very true. And to get them to connect, you know, and I don't know this answer, I'm asking you more is, is politics. Do you vote for someone for what it does for you or what it does for people who you care about?

[Nicole Wallace]

It's gotta be the latter, right? But I think we're stuck in the first. And I think like. And I think that, and I think maybe we're playing two different games, right? Maybe that's why we keep losing.

[Doc Rivers]

Well, this is the me generation now, let me tell you. I'm a coach and this is this generation. There's so many moments I was really proud of our generation, our young generation. Especially, you know, with the George Floyd thing and just other causes, the women rights. I mean, women have been unbelievable. But when's the last time you see men excited about something in, in that way? It's been a long time, you know, but you're right, it's. Everything's about what. Well, what it can do for me, how it can help me. You know, you hear men, I'm voting for Trump because he helps me. He doesn't. But that's what they believe. That's what he makes them believe. Trump says it over and over again and he knows it's not true, but he doesn't care because he knows if 5% of those people believe him, he just took 5% away from the other side. And he does it over and over and over again. I don't know who said it, but if you tell a lie a thousand times, it's still a lie. The problem is that's not so true anymore. It's lies are becoming truths. I mean, there was no election corruption. There was none. None that. But we've actually have changed policies over this. States are voting for registration cards.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. IDs. Yeah, IDs.

[Doc Rivers]

This is all over a lie. Yeah, but he said it and he never stopped. Give him credit again, like, we all know it's not true. People laugh at him. No, they're not laughing at him. They're starting to believe them.

[Nicole Wallace]

They come around on the lie.

[Doc Rivers]

Yeah, it's become a truth when it's still a lie.

[Nicole Wallace]

What's the response? I mean, I think some of the struggle of the Democratic Party is its own earnestness. Right. So, like it's against the rules to do X, Y and Z. So they're never going to do X, Y and Z. But the other side keeps winning by doing X, Y and Z. How do you adjust, man?

[Doc Rivers]

I do think I'll give you a point. Like this whole transgender thing in Wisconsin every 10 minutes and I can't.

[Nicole Wallace]

And those ads are unanswered. I mean, the campaign. Campaign had to confront that Dana Plouff and Stephanie Cutter, and they were unanswered on tv.

[Doc Rivers]

They didn't think they had to because they thought it was so silly. But it wasn't silly. It was connecting. And so I think we have to answer back. We have to give real answers, not about Trump in particular, just about the lies. We have to prove to them that this is not true. And we have to flood the market over and over and over again because that's what he's done.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, I think some of it too, is everyone that has thoughts that's willing to share em. I mean, that's why we're doing this, right? I'm on tv. No one doesn't get enough of me on tv. Right. I'm there two hours a day every day. And I may be wishcasting here, but I think that there's something about the way Trump has come out of the gates. He's done everything that Kamala Harris said he was gonna do. Everything. I mean, you listen to President Obama's final sort of two weeks on the stump. Trump has done. And there were laugh lines, Right. And he's done everything Obama warned and then some.

[Doc Rivers]

He surpassed it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. So I wonder, like, to your point, like, do you get your credibility back by doing both things, like the vacuum created. And I know it's you're talking about. I know people who have daughters who say, listen, I don't like Trump, but I don't want my daughter to have to play or get hurt by a biological boy. To your point, if the facts were out there, I think there have been. There are less than a dozen transgender athletes playing in college sports. The facts may still move you into the column of voting for Republican, but absent the facts, you have no shot as a Democrat.

[Doc Rivers]

Exactly. And also, also saying, like, listen, I'm. I don't know the answer on that one.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I don't either.

[Doc Rivers]

But we're too scared to say that.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right?

[Doc Rivers]

We're too scared. We don't want to offend anyone.

[Nicole Wallace]

That's so true. Because I also, as a mom, if you want to honor and you don't want to make anyone feel left out of the coalition, I don't know the answer.

[Doc Rivers]

I don't either. But I know that I have a daughter. You have a daughter, you think the same way and then you catch yourself, wait a minute. I can't think this way.

[Nicole Wallace]

I'm not like them.

[Doc Rivers]

Yeah, I'm not like them. And so we have to be better at studying all that and answering to it. It's just so important for us.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, what's the human sort of. The emotional intelligence piece is almost a disadvantage in politics.

[Doc Rivers]

It is now. It used to not be. The standards have been changed, they've been lowered. The debates are a joke now. You know, they've become these nasty things, these name calling things. Listen, and the debates have also shown that they're not as important as we thought. Because if you go by the one debate, it was a blowout. But then Trump the same day says he won and he stayed on it again. He just stays with it and we don't. Kamala had so much great momentum after that debate and within two days it was gone. It was just gone.

[Nicole Wallace]

She ran on Joy, which, like, spoke to me. Yeah, but obviously, obviously didn't, you know, what about that was wrong?

[Doc Rivers]

You know, I thought it was right at the time.

[Nicole Wallace]

It felt good.

[Doc Rivers]

I was wrong as everyone else. I mean, Bruce Springsteen was given free concerts in Pennsylvania and Pennsylvania voted for Donald Trump. Half the audience at those concerts who had a great time voted for Trump anyway. So what does that say?

[Nicole Wallace]

What does it say?

[Doc Rivers]

I don't know the answer. I really.

[Nicole Wallace]

Is it in, is it in what you said about your players, though, that people are looking for the intersection with where it benefits them?

[Doc Rivers]

Always.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right.

[Doc Rivers]

Always. Even if it's not true, you know, in politics, all you have to do is make them believe that you'll be better the other way. And it used to be it was actually truth. Now it's not.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's so interesting. I mean, I think the other thing about politics that, that doesn't sort of benefit from the reality based world of sports is that the results, the result.

[Doc Rivers]

The results are the results. That's what I love about sports. I've always. I hate sports where there's a judge hate it. Like figure skating and all that. I can watch the same thing and all of a sudden I'm like, how did they win? Because they voted on it. You know boxing, I love boxing, love boxing. But the end scares me. I like the scoreboard, where you can see the scoreboard and you know, it's a fair playing field, like it's equal now. One thing I love about sports and I always use this in life, we all start in the same place. When there's a hundred yard dash, you don't get a 20 yard, a 30 yard advantage, a 40 yard advantage. And that's where, when you get in the race, that's where a lot of black men are saying like, wait a minute, they got a 70 yard advantage and 100 yard dash. Now we're gonna start, you know, even. But they still are ahead 70 yards. How do I catch that? You know, and that's the answer that I don't have.

[Nicole Wallace]

Are the Democrats still at the table? I mean, are people, are black men still listening or. I mean, and you look at some of, I mean Trump took down Jackie Robinson's page from the. I mean, does that re. Engage or does that more just, just, just make it tune out?

[Doc Rivers]

I don't know, it senses me. Some of the things the dei, you know, DEI just blew up. Woke, blew up. Just, just, they changed. Woke into something completely different. I mean, Bill Maher, who I used to just love, has literally ran away with this woke thing. Unless it involves him.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, really. It used to be political correctness, right. Which was his thing in the 90s. And then they keep rebranding it as like an umbrella for everyone's grievances.

[Doc Rivers]

There are things in the woke part that's just silly, too much. But there's so many important things that are not. And for you to put them in one category hurts the things that are important. There are things that we need to wake up about in our country. I love using Germany as, I love this as an example with the Holocaust. You know, Germany did an amazing job after the Holocaust. They had a reckoning. They did, they had a reckoning. They had to admit that what happened was atrocious, was wrong. They paid reparations. If you go to Germany, there's markers on every home where there's a Holocaust victim. There's no. The Nazi flag is illegal. There's no Nazi soldier statues. They've had a reckoning. And what they found out that it didn't necessarily. It did help the Jewish people, it helped the Germans more. They became more open minded. You know, the protests when Elon Musk in Germany. Yeah, because they've had a reckoning. We have not had that. We have not had that with slavery. And yet, you know, and it's in our own country. And so, you know, for me, I'm a black man. When I see a Confederate flag, I'm angry and I'm scared because I see that, and that scares me. And we do nothing about it. Is that woke? Because we want to remove a black Nazi swastika is the Confederate flag. And I don't think that's being woke. I think that's being real.

[Nicole Wallace]

What is it like to see things go the other direction? You know, I mean, and I, I know that progress is. Is uneven, but this is. This is a real reverting.

[Doc Rivers]

It's a rumble, you know, and it started the day Obama was elected. I really believe that. You know, and I think there's a lot of people in certain areas, like the, we're not letting this happen again, or now we're not being hurt, you know, and I think that's where the MAGA started. They connected with the people that didn't think they were being hurt. Now, I don't know how they got there. I think they fell into it, but they saw it, they recognize it, and they ran with it. And they've done an amazing job with it.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, the movement really starts. And the attachment emotionally to Trump starts with Trump and the birth certificate. Yeah, right. So if you look at the people as his followers, they started following. I know people that are still really excited about Trump who used to call me and say, oh, you know, the birth certificate's coming out today. I'm like, what are you talking about? And the obsession with delegitimizing, arguably one of the most successful presidents not of our lifetime, but of our history. I mean, eight years without a scandal. Like, you can't say that I worked for Bush and I love him, but we were not without. I mean, there was Katrina, there was Harriet Meyers, there was Iraq. I mean, there are plenty of political and policy debates that they started in this country, but the effort to delegitimize them to now continue the vitriol against them is extraordinary.

[Doc Rivers]

It's what started it. You're right. The birther. That's what started it. People got behind that. That's as racist as it comes. If we're just keeping that real. And the reason they're still on the Obamas, they're scared of Michelle.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, one thing my read is like would never, never.

[Doc Rivers]

No.

[Nicole Wallace]

Doesn't even want to read the political news anymore.

[Doc Rivers]

She's actually making comments to make sure you understand that, you know.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. What part of no did you miss?

[Doc Rivers]

I was at a conference this summer that she was speaking at and every time she opened her mouth and said something, oh, no. She's making sure we know there's no.

[Nicole Wallace]

Chance of is disqualifying herself from every party primary that could ever.

[Doc Rivers]

But they did the same. Hillary, you know.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Doc Rivers]

If you ask.

[Nicole Wallace]

And Harris. And Harris.

[Doc Rivers]

Yeah. If you ask the average person why they don't like Hillary, they can't tell you.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right. Same with Harris.

[Doc Rivers]

Yeah. But they did it. They because they knew what was coming and they attack early and they did a hell of a job.

[Nicole Wallace]

We'll be right back with more of my conversation with Doc Rivers. Stay right here.

[Doc Rivers]

Wasn't that delicious? So good.

[Nicole Wallace]

Your bill, ladies.

[Doc Rivers]

I got it. No, I got it.

[Pat Connaughton]

Seriously, I insist.

[Nicole Wallace]

I insisted first. Don't be silly.

[Pat Connaughton]

You don't be silly.

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[Doc Rivers]

Okay.

[Pat Connaughton]

Rock, paper, scissors for it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Rock, paper, scissors.

[Doc Rivers]

Shoot.

[Nicole Wallace]

No.

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[Pat Connaughton]

At Strayer University, we help students like you go from will I to why not? For over 130 years, we've been innovating higher education to make it more affordable, accessible, and attainable so you can reach your goals. Go from thinking, can I? To yes, I can and keep striving. Visit Strayer Edu to learn more, Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by CHEV and its many campuses, including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia.

[Nicole Wallace]

I think your assessment of the league is the best explanation. Right. And it's actually comforting that they're young and they don't see how it affects them yet. And it's early days and when you were at the Clippers, I was on the View and I remember covering the Sterling crisis and scandal and I remember it engulfing the White House as well. I remember President Obama spoke out about it. I think a lot of politicians spoke out about it. But I wonder if you think that these players, if something affected them or touched them, if they could still be touched by politics and drawn into politics and activism.

[Doc Rivers]

Yeah, I thought that group was drawn in. And the goal, I have to say, when it first happened, I thought it was a big deal, but I didn't think it was a big deal. You know what I mean by that?

[Nicole Wallace]

We kind of, you don't know how big in the moment.

[Doc Rivers]

Yeah, we're in a make believe world. Athletes are. We are. Our life is ridiculous. We're fly private. I mean, if the food's not right on the plane, we can order different food. Like we, we complain a lot in our lives. It's just. So when this happened, I remember the two things. When I, our first meeting with the team, I wasn't sure like how it was going to go. I wasn't even sure how they were going to take me because I worked for him. And so I had to make a decision. Do I wear the Clipper jersey or the Clipper logo or not? I wore it and I walked in, none of the players had it on. So like, oh, this is not a good idea, you know, and when I first started talking, I will say this, everyone had their hands folded, which means they're not listening. You know, look at your audience. Democrats, look at your audience. And so I put my path down and I remember saying, okay, guys, listen, my name is Glenn Rivers, I'm that Doc Rivers. I grew up in Chicago and I'm a black man. And I'm offended by what was said. And the moment I said that, the arms were unfolded and we did things together. And that group, Chris Paul, Matt Barnes, all those guys, they were involved a little bit. That made them involved, that got them involved because it connected to them. It hurt them two, it bothered them. Adam Silver was amazing in that whole thing. But even after that, I remember going to the first practice and that's when I knew, oh, you know, Mike Wallace is here. You know, Tom Brokaw. I'm using names that I know.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Doc Rivers]

But everyone was in the gym, and I thought, oh, wow, this is a big deal. This is a big deal. And again, it's because of the whole race thing, Nicole, which in our country, it's so funny, you can't talk about race. And if you talk about race, you're using race. And I still go back to just, let's get back to who we are, understand what's happened in this country, and we can move on. But not teaching history.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right?

[Doc Rivers]

I mean, the ridiculous.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's really hurting us.

[Doc Rivers]

Yes.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, like, I think part of the. What was revealed maybe by that is your players couldn't avoid it because it was about. Like it was their own right. It was a person who owned the team. And it's not a thing until it's a thing. You're owned by a guy who's so flagrantly racist. And that was so clear. But I think people who want to be on the right side, not just of history, but of a moment, are looking for their cues. And the problem with not teaching history and making these conversations so dicey for people who wanna be part of it and then so punitive and so flattened on the right, is that people don't know how to step in. And then that's how the, you know, the wrong side perpetuates the wrong beliefs and succeeds in erasing history. And, you see, with canceling dei, it's not just about erasing black history. It's about making white people ignorant. Right. Of the things that have happened. Because somebody on the right thinks that you'll make a white kid feel bad about something that happened, which there's literally no example of that happening ever, where a white student learning about the history of slavery feels bad for something that happened 100 years ago.

[Doc Rivers]

It's ridiculous.

[Nicole Wallace]

But you look at efforts to erase history, and that seems to. It's scary.

[Doc Rivers]

Like, we've learned if you don't study history, you repeat it. I mean, that's been told to us since we were kids. The two things, though, that came out that I would say with disturbing or. One thing for sure is what I learned for the first time is people were judging us. How we responded. We became the issue somehow instead of focusing on the wrongdoer, you know, how will the Clippers respond? Did they respond enough? Did they do enough? Should they play? And I'm like, wait a minute. We're the innocent Guys, let's focus on this racist and let's talk about him. Let's. Let's go after him and do the right thing. And I was blown away by how our players were getting inundated with their. They should not play or, or they should do this, or they. That was more of the focus than it was on Donald Sterling. And then the biggest thing with race. And I, and I, some of my friends, I love having great. I love discussion just to get a discussion going. I just have always liked debate. I like it. But recently one of my friends said, well, why do I have to pay the price? Is something I didn't do. You know, that's the average white man's thought. And in some ways he's right and he's wrong. You know, I did nothing. Why do I have to pay a cost? Or, you know, I don't agree with that. And, you know, it goes back to, well, you're, you're ahead already. You know, but it's such a. How do you, how do you argue that point? Because it's a valid point and it's a hard one.

[Nicole Wallace]

But what is the zero sum of it about? Because how does it take from you to learn the actual truth?

[Doc Rivers]

No, that's the whole key. Because I don't want to feel bad. I don't want to learn the whole truth and what it does. What we're missing is it'll make you better. The truth is, will set you free. Not us. Everyone. That question about why do I have to do anything different, I had nothing to do with that. Yeah, but the massive wealth that was generated from Jim Crow, years of slavery and all that, it puts people in a hole that it's impossible to get out. And how do we figure that out? And I have no answers.

[Nicole Wallace]

How do you make the truth the truth? And how do you make it like the thing that's stickier and that goes viral and that people are posting on Instagram? How do you make the truth the coveted sneaker of the season?

[Doc Rivers]

Because the truth is interpreted, and that's why. Because it's hard for people to understand the truth as just simply the truth. Nicole, Sunday, go to five churches and they're going to open the same Bible and they're going to read the same verse, and that's the truth. If you're in that religion and they're going to say five different things, and that's unfortunately where the truth is now, instead of. They're just math truths is what I call them. You know, two plus two is four there's no explanation to that.

[Nicole Wallace]

That.

[Doc Rivers]

All right, it's four. It's. It's nothing else. And there's certain things that are actually. That have happened, and there's. We don't need an interpretation. We have to figure out how to make those things the solid truth. And. And. And somehow those things. I mean, the fact that there are people that said that there was no Holocaust. I mean, and there's millions of people who believe that. How does that happen?

[Nicole Wallace]

How do you marry the best of culture, sports, music, art? A student of history knows that you can't just push every four years in our presidential politics. You have to push the culture. What role can sports play in sort of pushing the truth and pushing the best and pushing our history, you know, or has sort of shut up and dribble permeated sports?

[Doc Rivers]

I think it has not. I think that the more we stand out and talk about it, the more we get guys to talk about it. Well, I think where we have failed as a league, Nicole, I think our players think that only the good players, the stars, should talk, and that's not true. Everyone should talk. Everyone who has a voice or belief. You know, you have to have passion in something, to really speak on something. And we need our players somehow to be compassionate about this, because it affects not only them, it affects their entire community, and that's the way they have to connect things.

[Nicole Wallace]

Most of them, though, are passionate. That's how you don't end up in the league if you're not passionate. Right. If you're not disciplined. I mean, all the things that put them in front of you as players would make them better than just about anyone. I mean, and they all have sisters or moms or. You go back to women's issues, is it sort of like almost like we're hostages of our algorithm? Right. So they're just not seeing it, or is it their youth or is it their.

[Doc Rivers]

Yeah, I think it's all those. But I do think it starts with the passion. I mean, listen, I've been through those highs and lows and the highs you work your life for. All right? When Obama won, I was emotional for the first time. I'll never forget. There was a black couple in the front row. I want to say it was the Rockets game, and that was the night of the election. We were playing, and the. The black lady was crying. The game's going on, Nicole, and I see the husband hugging. I don't know what's happening. So there's a timeout, and I stopped there right by our bench, they're in the front row. And I stop and I say, sir, do you need some help? Are you okay? And he looked up. I'm getting choked up thinking about it. He looks up and says, no, Obama just won. And I literally the game now we're about to go out and I'm choked up. I needed to take. I caught a timeout, I caught another timeout. And I told our guys, hey, guys, Obama just won. And I know there's video of us jumping up and down, you know, God, we need to connect that again. For me, that made me emotional. And so that's where we gotta get back to somehow.

[Nicole Wallace]

I cry at the anthem, at every Knicks game and every Mets game, which are the two sporting events that I go to most regularly. And I don't know if it's just that I think that people sitting around me might hate my guts for what I do on tv, but we're all standing there in that moment singing the same song to the same country. Or if it's that for the next two, three hours I'm gonna be free from the things that keep me up at night. Or if it's that I think someone out there, you know, might, might be the next person that, that can bring people together and, and, and bring us to something better. But are you optimistic? Do you? Do you?

[Doc Rivers]

I'm always optimistic. I really am. The co. Listen, as you were saying what you were saying and seeing when I started talking about the Obama thing, you were getting teary eyed then and I was, you know, what makes our country great is we just had this discussion and we can. And in most countries you can't. Or in a lot of countries you can't have this. If we had this discussion in a lot of other countries right when we got off air, there are people waiting for us to lock us up. And we can complain. You know, it's like your family. Oh, you could complain all day about your own kids, but don't let anybody else complain about them.

[Nicole Wallace]

Exactly.

[Doc Rivers]

That's how we feel about our country. So we have the right to complain. We have the right to want to fix it, and we should all get involved in fixing it. But don't mess with our country. Our country is fantastic. That's the way I look at it. At the end of the day, there's.

[Nicole Wallace]

So much about where you are and how beloved you are and how beloved your players are. What's been the best moment this year?

[Doc Rivers]

Oh, that's a good, That's a great question. This year, our Best moments. Number one is winning the in season tournament. That was absolutely awesome for us. I would say number two, this year is watching my young players progress so quickly. Players that before the year we didn't think we were going to have. And then three, this is a strange one, but it was Christmas afternoon. I was in the office by myself and Pat Connaughton, who was a player on our team who had lost his. Lost his minutes. A veteran who won a championship here was in the gym all by himself, running. And I just like, I'm the emotional guy. That actually made me emotional. Because this is a guy that doesn't complain. He doesn't. He just sticks at it. And he believes that at some point he's gonna get another shot.

[Nicole Wallace]

You do the work.

[Doc Rivers]

Yeah. Last night he had 43 points.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Doc Rivers]

And he got a shot. And so that might have been one of my best moments.

[Nicole Wallace]

I love that. I love how much you love them. I know you said that some of the worst advice you got was to not get attached to them, the players.

[Doc Rivers]

Thank God I didn't listen.

[Nicole Wallace]

I was gonna say it feels like the best advice you might give a coach just starting out is to do the opposite.

[Doc Rivers]

Yeah. Pour in. And you're gonna get your heart broken. It's just like, I guess, trying to fall in love. I don't know. But you're gonna get your heart broken. There's gonna be guys that are gonna resist you, and that's okay. And just understand, don't take it personal and don't make that guy a bad guy. He just didn't, as you use the word vibe, he didn't vibe with you. And I've learned that as a coach, that I'm not for everybody. And that's okay.

[Nicole Wallace]

I love something that you said in the Netflix doc. You said, these guys say, I'm going to practice. And I see this in my own son. He doesn't say he's going to practice, he's going to hit. There's nothing that makes my son feel more alive than swinging a baseball bat. So he never says, I gotta go practice or I've gotta go, I'm going to hit. And it's like his face lights up. And you said that about basketball, that it was never, I gotta go practice. I'm gonna go play basketball. The greatest game. Is it. Is it sort of syncing your passion with what you do or what is sort of the best advice for being as good as you are?

[Doc Rivers]

Still being in love with what you do. Just being in love with it. I may be accused of sometimes being too in love with it because there are things, family and all kinds of things that you make sacrifices. And if you look back on, man, I probably shouldn't have done that. I know right now the players are about to start. There's either two outcomes. I'm going to land the plane or I'm going to crash the plane and that's it. And you can't wait to get involved in it. That tells you how great this job is for me.

[Nicole Wallace]

Good luck with everything that comes next. Thank you for carving out this hour for us. We're really grateful to get to talk to you.

[Doc Rivers]

Oh, this is great. I could talk to you every day. This is fantastic.

[Nicole Wallace]

I'm always here. You know where to find me in the summer if you want to come hang out anytime.

[Doc Rivers]

I love it. Thank you.

[Nicole Wallace]

Thank you so much. Thank you.

[Doc Rivers]

Take care.

[Nicole Wallace]

Thank you.

[Doc Rivers]

Bye bye.

[Nicole Wallace]

Foreign thank you so much for listening to the Best People. Be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to get this and other MSNBC podcasts ad free. As a subscriber, you'll also get early access and exclusive bonus content. If you've been enjoying our conversation with the Best People, be sure to raise and review the show. Your reviews help others discover the show. Also, all episodes of the podcast are available on YouTube as well. Visit msnbc.com the best people to Watch the Best People is produced by Vicki Vergolina and Senior producer Lisa Ferry, with additional support from Pat Elliott and Rana Shabazzi. Our audio engineer is Bob Mallory and Bryson Barnes is the head of Audio production. Pat Berkey is the Senior Executive Producer of Deadline White House and Aisha Turner is the Executive Producer of MSNBC Audio. Search for the Best People in Nicole Wallace wherever you get your podcasts and follow the whole series.

[Pat Connaughton]

At Strayer University, we help students like you go from Will I to why not? For over 130 years, we've been innovating higher education to make it more affordable, accessible and attainable so you can reach your goals. Go from thinking can I? To Yes, I can and keep striving. Visit strayer.edu to learn more. Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by CHEV and its many campuses, including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia.

[Doc Rivers]

That.