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The Best People with Nicolle Wallace
Gov. Mikie Sherrill Runs New Jersey Like a Busy Mom
00:52:06
From negotiating with toddlers to lifting the nuclear moratorium, Governor Mikie Sherill gets it done.
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- [00:01]
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Interviewer / Podcast Host
Oh, no.
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- [01:01]
Mikey Sherrill
You know, even if we wanted to, there's just no getting back to the pre Trump era. Now I personally wouldn't want to because I think there was a great deal of inertia there, which is what people I think were responding to when they elected him twice, however. Right? So it's not that that was this Shangri La cans were being kicked down the road that we're addressing now. But at the same time, we have to chart a different path forward. Because I think I was listening to somebody the other day who said he's really good at identifying the problems, he's really bad at creating any solutions to them. He just makes everything worse.
- [01:38]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
In an era that all too often feels defined these days by grift and scandal and the tearing down of expertise and basic lack of respect for public service and public servants, our guest this week proves there is indeed another way. She has spent her entire life serving our country, first as a Navy helicopter pilot, then as a federal prosecutor, a member of Congress, and now as a big state governor. In the last few years, she just may have given the Democratic Party a possible roadmap to beating Donald Trump and the Republican Party at their own game. So this is the best people. And this is New Jersey's Governor, Mikey Sherrill. Thank you for being here, Governor.
- [02:17]
Mikey Sherrill
Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate.
- [02:28]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
So I remember on election day asking about your race and asking about your friend now, Governor Abigail Spamberger's race, and people said, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know if Cheryl's going to make it. I said, really?
- [02:43]
Mikey Sherrill
She's ahead in the polls.
- [02:44]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
I feel like you have been underestimated at every turn. Is that a New Jersey thing? Is that a woman thing? Is that a you thing? What do you think that is?
- [02:53]
Mikey Sherrill
That's a really good question, you know, because it was a very odd campaign. I think there was this narrative set. A lot of the media, a lot of the kind of right wing media, I think really enjoyed the narrative and kept poking it and pushing it. But, you know, I did hear it again and again. I'd go to these thousand person crowds. I'd go to some red area of the state on a Tuesday in the rain and, you know, have a room full of people and we'd see the excitement on the ground. Our internal polling looked great. And even once the early votes started to come in again and again and again, you know, we're hearing, oh, it's close, it's gonna be closer than it should be. There's no energy, there's no excitement. And it was just. I've never run in a campaign where the feeling on the ground was more different from everything you heard about the race. And so I felt pretty confident the whole time. I remember getting really frustrated, you know, for the 20th time when someone came up to me at an event and said, oh, it looks like the polls are closer than they should be, or why does nobody else feel confident? And I just said to him, I said, you know what? I'm just running to win. And I think people have forgotten what that looks like. And so we were running a race that was really dedicated to listening to people, to, to making sure we were responsive, that I had a plan to create opportunity to drive down costs, to fight Trump when I had to. And that just wasn't what national people thought a race should look like. For some reason, you converted a lot
- [04:25]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
of Trump voters who, a year before they voted for you, thought Donald Trump was a good idea. What was your pitch to them?
- [04:33]
Mikey Sherrill
I have always run these campaigns that I have thought of as fairly nonpartisan. And I'm very proud to be a Democrat. And I'm, I believe deeply in this idea that well run government can be life changing. I've seen it in my own family. And yet at the same time, what I'm running on to me just makes perfect sense for working people. It's not about whether you're a Democrat or a Republican. It's about just driving down families costs and making good policy, creating Jobs, creating opportunity. I always think of the American Dream as that idea of, you know, you want to do well, you want to create something for yourself, and you want your kids to do just a little bit better. And to me, that kind of centers my work. And so that doesn't feel very partisan. And I think really focusing on running that way is what is appealing to people and then executing.
- [05:20]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
What is the opportunity, though, to do that at a moment when Donald Trump's own sanity is being questioned by members from deep inside his coalition? I mean, obviously people want a government that works for them because, you know, you were running this campaign around issues. People care about issues. People voted for Trump because they cared about them so much. Affordability, the prices of things. I mean, how do you thread that needle of speaking to sort of the voracious political appetites of the moment and doing the meat and potatoes work of governing and delivering right now?
- [05:55]
Mikey Sherrill
After running for over a year, I'm so connected to the people across the state. I've spoken to thousands of them. I know where they're at. And so I know what I have to do, and it is deliver. You know, I would go to people and say, look, I'm going to declare a state of emergency. I'm going to freeze ray hikes. Oh, you know, Mikey, you're just. That's just a talking point. Or I'm going to really fight hard for opportunity and innovation, economy. Oh, everybody says that, and it hurt me. I'm sitting here as somebody who's been in public servant my entire life, listening to people express that they don't have a lot of faith in government. And the worst part about it was that I knew exactly why they were saying that. Cause I'd seen it myself. You know, these members of Congress who maybe love to go on church on Sunday and have everybody, oh, that's the congresswoman. And then they go back to Washington, but they haven't passed a bill in years. You know, they're never at the caucus meetings. They're never actually getting votes. They're not doing the work. They're sort of just a figurehead that maybe somebody on their staff tweets online about some stuff. It is a privilege to serve, but it's a responsibility. You've got to lead, you've got to serve, and you've got to deliver. And for too many people, it's this theoretical book club. Well run. Government's life changing and we have to deliver. And I'm a mom of four kids and I don't have time for this I don't have time for people who aren't performing. And no family in New Jersey does either. I mean, think about it. You know, you're a mom. You seem, from everything I can tell, to be incredibly busy. I mean, you know that sense, right, of like, oh my gosh, I cannot sit around right now. I need this to happen now. I need things to happen now because, you know, you're too busy. And people in this state are too busy. They're working too hard, they've got too much going on in their life to have this nonsensical federal government that's making everything harder. They need somebody to stand up for them and they need it now. It can't be two years. It can't be a strongly worded letter. It can't be a 10 year study tomorrow. They need somebody doing stuff that's going to impact them tomorrow. And that's what we're working to deliver.
- [08:05]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
If you were still in Congress, would you have joined, I think some of those six members who made the video warning the men and women of the military not to follow in a legal order, would you have joined them?
- [08:18]
Mikey Sherrill
You know, it's something I really felt at the time because I was so upset about what was going on and that had been such a key part of my training. If you remember when I went to the Naval Academy, that was about 20 years from Vietnam, so we were still very much being inculcated in those lessons learned from Vietnam and not to follow illegal orders and what it meant. And I remember as like an 18 year old thinking, okay, if I'm with, you know, if I'm getting ordered to do this, you know, am I going to have the courage to stand up when I know it's wrong? And how am I going to know if, you know, I don't have all the information and taking that responsibility seriously? And so to see people who were, you know, possibly bombing fishing trawlers and with incomplete information, people could have stood up to see a Secretary of Defense who was so incompetent and so out of control. And I guess it hit me really hard watching Hegseth because I was at the Naval Academy at a time when women there were new. I just went to the 50th anniversary of women at the service academies. And it was a time when it was really being questioned. And you know, there was an article put out, women Can't Fight by James Webb, that was really offensive. And you know, I recalled that all of my classmates came in as plebes or freshmen. They had no problem with women. I mean, it wasn't a big deal, but that was inculcated. And I knew how young people could, you know, could be trained in that way. So I was very worried about what Hegseth was trying to institute. Firing the female chief of Naval operations, moving the female superintendent out of the Naval Academy, firing other admirals and generals. So I remember when they stood up and said that, I thought it was an important reminder. I think everyone in this country has to be reminded that they have a real responsibility, especially in these positions of trust.
- [10:15]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
You talked a little bit about Hegseth's rule, rule and role. You were still in Congress during his confirmation. You had some really specific lines of questioning for him. Do you think there are Republicans who regret voting for him, or have you heard from any who express that?
- [10:31]
Mikey Sherrill
I certainly hope so. I would hope that when they watched his complete incompetence, that they really regret it. I would hope when they see that, I think nine, four stars have been fired, the most in such a short period of time in our nation's history. And on top of that, then we get into a war that the President can't explain, and nobody seemed to stand up to him to tell him, you know, you really have to have a strategy or a plan or you can't put Americans lives at stake with no plan. I would hope that they regret it. And yet they don't seem to have spoken out against getting rid of some of the previous cabinet members, like Nome, for example. They seem to understand that that needed to happen and that was a debacle. And I assume many of them think that Hegseth is a debacle, but at the same time, I'm not hearing enough from them to do anything about it. I think this sense that there are so many elected leaders that in a time of crisis, are not standing up or charting out a different path forward and are being quiet in the face of it is what really breeds this distrust in government.
- [11:35]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
You were one of the first people, I think, after January six to do what the whole country was asked to do after September 11th. If you see something, say something. And I remember interviewing you about the Republicans ahead of January six going along with Trump's lie about not actually losing, when even Bill Barr said that was. I think Bill Barr called it, quote, bullshit. And you've got a little bit of distance now. You're the chief executive of your own state. When you look at how Congress functions, having sort of gone along with someone who attacked the seat of government, they all ran for their lives. They tried to put the toothpaste back in the tube. And I wonder how you think that changed the relationship between the president and Congress.
- [12:20]
Mikey Sherrill
I think that's a really good question. It's just shocking, really, when you think about that. And there was no accountability for him. And I think that that was an inflection point where you had a choice to either decide that this was a red line, trying to interfere with a Democratic election, even calling for violence against the vice president, et cetera.
- [12:45]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
And.
- [12:45]
Mikey Sherrill
Or you could just do what I think a lot of people felt was the easier thing and just hide, duck and cover, kind of hope it went away. And, and I really wonder, I often wonder how McConnell feels about all this because he was really the key to me and I think he led the charge of let's just get through this, I assume, thinking, well, he's about, you know, he's gone now and I wonder if he ever thinks, you know, he's back and I could have done something about that and we could have been in a very different place. I think that was a real inflection point where there should have been nobody who's taken an oath to the Constitution that wasn't going to draw a red line there, impeach him, make sure he could never hold office again in this country. And they didn't do their job. And now we're here.
- [13:35]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
Yeah. I mean, and I think about it in the sort of reverse engineering who's standing up to him? I mean, and I wonder, you didn't really answer directly, but I'll take it as a probably that the six that stood up to. I don't even know if you call it standing up to Trump, but stood up for the men and women of the military and simply put out a public message saying it is your job, it is your duty to disobey an illegal order. I mean, the post January 6th Congress to me feels different in that it is the national security figures, the people who took an oath to the Constitution. Senator Kelly, it's Senator Slotkin, it's yourself and now Governor Spamberger who understand what it means to, I think, have a commander in chief that puts the country and the military in tension with the Constitution. And I wonder if, as the governor, you hear from any military families in your state about what it's like to have Trump as commander in chief.
- [14:32]
Mikey Sherrill
Yeah, and I'm sorry I didn't answer directly. Sometimes that annoys me. I don't want to have any sort of stolen valor suggests that, you know, oh, yeah, I would be just as strong as that. Yes. I'm sure I would have joined the video had I been there. But I'm so. I'm impressed with those who did stand up and did really remind serving men and women of what it means to serve and take an oath. And when I look at what's going on and what, what Trump and Hexath have done, I find it very strategic. I look at the first Trump administration and what kept him from going further than he did was often the military. It was people like General Milley or Secretary Esper.
- [15:18]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [15:18]
Mikey Sherrill
And Kelly. And Kelly. It was the military members who would not fall in line. And I think that surprised him. If you recall, he hired all these generals and he. He kept trying to call them my generals. Right. Which sort of tried to politicize the military, tried to make them his arm. And then he started to try to create a group that would follow his orders. And so you could see that the very first thing he seemed to do in his administration was fire Lisa Franchetti, the first woman chief of Naval Operations. Fire the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who was black. I even. That's one of the things I questioned Tag Seth on. Less than a month into the job, you fired the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, CQ Brown, and the Chief of Naval Operations, Lisa Franketti, without cause. And to this day, you still have not provided an adequate explanation for removing them. As far as I can tell, you fired CQ Brown because he was black, and Lisa Franchetti because she is a woman. And imagine a world where your Secretary of Defense isn't appalled over that charge. Not only was he not appalled at it, he basically shrugged it off. Because I think that's exactly what happened. And many to follow, you know, anyone that Trump thought might stand up to him or wasn't loyal to him. And remember, our military doesn't take a loyalty oath to the president. This isn't, you know, a kingdom or a monarchy. Our military takes an oath to the Constitution. And the president tried to disrupt that and continues to try to do that along with Hagseth. And so it was very calculated. And then he tried to use the National Guard. I think the courts pretty much put a stop to that. But you saw early on he was trying to, you know, co opt the National Guard to be his force and now ICE agents. So again and again, he's tried to create his own military force and undermine any professional officers and soldiers that would stand against him. And I can tell you, yeah, I speak to, you know, many of Our military members struggle. Do you stay and stand in the breach? Because we know what a powerful organization it is and you need people who care about the Constitution to be there to try to hold the line as illegal things are being done, as war crimes are being committed, or do you just get out and say, I can't, you know, I'm complicit? And I think they're constantly trying to figure out where that line is. You know, am I standing in the breach or am I complicit? And it's really difficult. It's really difficult to do. But I'm so impressed with those people, especially our junior officers who are staying and are trying to find the path forward, knowing that we're counting on them to be the future of a professional military and not a militia. You know, that doesn't follow the Constitution.
- [18:13]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
I mean, you could almost take the military out of that example and tell the same story about doj. Right? Like there are career prosecutors who are probably grappling with the same thing. Do I stand in the breach and try to make sure we're only taking cases based on actual real evidence into the grand jury? And they seem to be falling like dominoes as well. How, for the next three years do states sort of grapple with the hollowing out of the military and the Justice Department? How do you run a state without a credible U.S. attorney's office in your states? How do you do the things that the state and federal government typically partner on?
- [18:53]
Mikey Sherrill
It's really difficult. As you know, I used to serve in the U.S. attorney's office as a federal prosecutor. So it's funny you say that, because as I was charting out the military, I've had the very same conversations with friends of mine in the doj. You know, how do you make that decision? And it's difficult. We've been trying to find that path forward and there are certain areas where we can do it quite easily. Taking the President to court on the Gateway Tunnel, I mean, that's great in the AG's office and getting our federal money back and making those cases with other states, we can do that kind of stuff. But when it comes to, for example, state corruption, it always looks a little like self dealing. If you're engaging in cases against state corruption, especially if the person is found not guilty, somehow everyone thinks there's a political angle to it that is best handled by U.S. attorney's offices, that's best handled by the federal government because they are seen as someone apart from the state who is an honest broker in that situation. And so there are reasons that we have federal prosecutors in the states. I mean, they are set up to have our system of justice operate well. And when they are not good actors, when they are threatening to politicize the office like Alina Habit did in the District of New Jersey, and when you see prosecutors trying to do whatever Trump wants them to do, that really upends our system of justice. In fact, it used to be a joke in the U.S. attorneys community, which probably won't be very funny because those jokes aren't. But the Southern District of New York was often called the Sovereign District of
- [20:38]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
New York because, you know, they answered to no one.
- [20:42]
Mikey Sherrill
Right, right. They are carrying out justice and justice is blind.
- [20:46]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
Right.
- [20:47]
Mikey Sherrill
And so you see a real problem with this. So the states are. States are expanding state power, which I think it's high time, I think the federal government has overreached over the years. And so that's one of the things I'm intent upon doing, is in those areas that really states do operate in with a great deal of power, we are taking back our power and making sure that we are not allowing the president to erode it. So he's asked for all our voter rolls and basically did not quote a complaint at us, just quoted the law, and we're following the law. So we say no reason to give those voter rules to him or all the private information he's taken us to court. But we're taking a strong stand here and I think we'll prevail. But it is incredibly problematic as a state governor when you have a president of the United States who has asked the Congress for $1.5 trillion on defense. Yeah, he spent billions on wars that he can't explain and exercises he can't explain or doesn't have a strategy for. He's involved in an illegal tariff regime, raising costs on everyone. So as he's driving up these costs for people, as he wants all this defense spending, he wants to cut Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, all the ways in which SNAP funding, education funding, different things that really the federal government runs these programs, which if the state is truly going to operate in these ways in which the federal government seems to want them to do, then they've got to stop taxing us. We need the money.
- [22:17]
Podcast Producer / Narrator
We'll pause here for a moment. Much more of my conversation with New Jersey Governor Mikey Sherrill on the other side. Stay with us.
- [22:32]
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- [23:01]
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Oh no.
- [23:06]
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- [24:08]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
I think I saw you are engaged in litigation against the Trump administration on multiple fronts. Many you just named refusing to turn over the voter rolls, the snap benefits funding for the tunnel. How much of your sort of day is eaten up by the sort of extrajudicial conduct of this administration and how much of that is outside the norm of sort of state federal tension.
- [24:33]
Mikey Sherrill
So we move really quickly now. We have a system. I get some of the amicus briefs or the cases, you know, routinely. It does eat up time, I don't think as much as before because we've really systemized, you know, made sure it's a system to move quickly because it's really necessary. The Gateway tunnel, unfortunately that did take up quite a bit of time fighting for that. But that was so critical to the economy, you know, a hundred thousand jobs potentially. Not to mention to commuters and in and out of the city, to jobs in a tunnel that was really damaged by Superstorm Sandy. We have to remediate it. So in all these ways it's a great deal of time and effort. But I also think that what we're doing is charting out a very different path forward because we can't, you know, even if we wanted to. There's just no getting back to the pre Trump era. Now I personally wouldn't want to because I think there was a great deal of inertia there, which is what, what people I think were responding to when they elected them twice, however. Right. So it's not that that was the Shangri La cans were being kicked down the road that we're addressing now. But at the same time we have to chart a different path forward because I think I was listening to somebody the other day who said he's really good at identifying the problems, he's really bad at creating any solutions to them. He just makes everything worse. And I think people. Right.
- [25:57]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
Senator Slotkin said something similar. She said he's got like the right, you know, read the wrong solution, you know, the right sort of thing that bugs people, but the wrong way to scratch their itches. And I'm not quoting her accurately now, but it is this recognition that some Democrats and ex Republicans are so blinded by hatred of him that they can't even examine the things that Trump and Bannon and his coalition get right about voters. But there is this anti elite sort of rage that was a slow simmer and he just rode that to victory in 16 and then again in, in 24 with all the sort of warts of being an insurrectionist and a felon. What is your sense of why it's still hard for some Democrats to learn the lessons of what he did?
- [26:46]
Podcast Producer / Narrator
Right.
- [26:47]
Mikey Sherrill
I think because he's such a hypocrite that just sticks from the craw of so many people. So he runs on things that I think identify this anti elitism and then he enriches himself and billionaires in full
- [27:05]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
view, not even hiding it with no shame.
- [27:08]
Mikey Sherrill
So I think that's what's hard. But I agree with you. I think there is space now because of this identification of these problems to address them in a really powerful way. So I always think of how interesting it is that Trump is so well liked when he's running for office and so unliked when he's in office. And I think it's just this point, because he identifies these problems, everyone's like, yeah, and then he gets in and does things that are actually making everything far, far worse. Yes. But it does give us the space. Those of us who really want to run effective government don't want to kick the can down the road, don't like the status quo, do want to take on the hard prompts to do that. And something I've learned is to move really quickly. You know, we've got to move more quickly. There was just, again, this inertia, this sense, like, these problems, and everybody can identify them, but we're not doing stuff about them. So I remember in 2018 being really frustrated because, you know, I came from a criminal justice background, and everybody knows the last place you want to spend all your money is on a prison system. We know a lot of the things that work for communities and to create better outcomes, and yet it didn't seem like we could put any money there. We just have to keep building more prisons. And the same thing was true of our crumbling infrastructure. We couldn't fix bridges until they collapsed, or healthcare. We couldn't treat nutrition programs, but we could only, you know, we'd only treat diabetes. So the list went on and on and on and on. So what I think I've taken away from the Trump administration is to just move quickly. We have a lot to do. It'll never be fast enough. You know, that's why I heard again and again and again, like, oh, everybody says that. So I finally got sick of it. I said, look, I'm declaring a state of emergency on day one, and I'm freezing rate hikes. You know, hold me accountable. I'm going to do this so you guys can see right away what I'm doing. And I stopped my inaugural address and signed these executive orders almost just like, yep, here you go, guys. Right? We're moving. I think that kind of speed is what people need to see. I haven't even been in office a hundred days. We've lifted the nuclear moratorium. We've approved six battery storage and solar projects that have been languishing for months. We've cut through red tape and permitting delays. We've expanded our power generation for years to come again and again and again. We've just started moving because we need to. We have a lot of work to do, but we also need people to understand that, you know, we're not waiting around. We get how busy you guys are. We are, too, and we don't have time to waste.
- [29:54]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
My favorite movie about the presidency is Dave. You know, the guy goes in and the real president is in the basement in a coma, and he sits in the Cabinet meeting and says, budget, smudge it. Commerce guy, can I have some of your money to fill that? You know, and that. I watched it when I worked in The White House all the time, because it's what people actually want. People don't want to think that common sense dies when you become president. But I think some of what you're describing is also like a working mother's efficiency. I order groceries and sushi for my son and my commercial breaks. I mean, there's just a way that a working mother's brain functions where we are constantly on output. Constantly. They'll study our brains when we're dead. What is sort of your guiding light in terms of governing in that way?
- [30:39]
Mikey Sherrill
That's so true. It's funny. I don't think people get what working mothers. What's happening in your life. I remember leaving a House Armed Services Committee meeting because I got a call from my son, and my. You know, he never calls me. So I'm like, oh. So I leave the committee hearing, and I go, you know, what's up? And he said, can you pick me up? Where are you? He goes, at school. I said, I'm in Washington. And he said, oh. I said, I've been here for four days.
- [31:09]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
And I'm sure for your son. There were other adult. My son will call me to order him lunch, and there'll be two other adults at home, like my husband and the babysitter. And he'll be like, yeah, but you just know what I want.
- [31:22]
Mikey Sherrill
They won't go.
- [31:22]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
And I'm like.
- [31:23]
Mikey Sherrill
And there's something about being a mom that you're like, correct.
- [31:25]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
And you always pick up the phone. They also know that no matter what you're doing, you pick up. So, like, I wonder if you're governing like that, you know, as. As something to prove as someone who's underestimated, or if that's just how, like, working mothers are wired for outputs.
- [31:39]
Mikey Sherrill
I think because I was so connected to people as I was running, just speaking to thousands of people all the time, the being underestimated almost fired me up a little bit. I'm like, all right, I got the numbers. I know where this is going. Keep talking. You know, that kind of thing. So. So there is a little bit of that. But I. I totally. I love your Dave analogy, because I remember the biggest compliment I've gotten in the past couple weeks is somebody said, you know, what's really interesting about working with you is people say things like, we can't do that. And they even sometimes say, like, a weird reason why. And you just always kind of say, well, why don't we then do it this way? Or, why can't we do that? Or can you just go back and check that again. And they said, and then we do it. And I think there is that sense that you've got to get this stuff done. And I guess maybe being a mom helps, because we've all negotiated with toddlers when they're like, no, no. And you're like, yes. Yeah, we're gonna do. Get those shoes on. Right? So there's just this sense of, like, we're gonna figure this out because we don't really have an option here. Like, I gotta figure out how to get you in your clothes and get you to school. Cause I gotta get to work. So we're just gonna get this done one way or the other. Mm.
- [32:59]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
Like, how much strength do you derive from your female friendships with Governor Spamberger, with Senator Slotkin, with the women that are sort of walking a similar path?
- [33:09]
Mikey Sherrill
Oh, it's. It's amazing. In fact, I. I just saw Alyssa when I was down at the labor meeting, and right before I was gonna go on, she kind of came rolling in, and I was. And, you know, just like, hey. And, I mean, what a. You know, kind of a funny thing to bond. I'm about to go speak before the labor conference, and my good friend is, too, so that's fun. And then we were texting each other afterwards. So there is this sense that somebody kind of gets. You're in a weird world, and somebody else gets it, and it's great to have that. I mean, it makes me feel like maybe we are all in a video game. The fact that, you know, of all the people and all the gin joints in all the world, that the two people running in the only two governor's races, the only two statewide races in 2025 were myself and Abigail Spanberger, who had been my roommate in, you know, the house. She's the oldest of three girls. I'm the oldest of three girls. She was born in Jersey. I was born in Virginia. You know, it all lined up, and I'm like, man, how lucky am I that, you know, again, doing this sort of weird thing, sort of unique thing, that I actually know the one other person in the world who's doing the same thing. And you know and know her well enough to trust her and call her and tell her all the things that are going wrong and what is she doing and how's she doing it and all that. It's really amazing to have these women who also, beyond just kind of doing these things, are also. You know, we all come from this national security background, and in the military, you work As a team, you know, you know, you need other people to get the mission accomplished. And that wasn't the feeling. When we got into Congress, I remember saying to another member of Congress, oh, are we all going to come together and talk about this and get this done? And he looked at me and he said, oh, I. You know, I got to be honest. This place, it's every man for himself. And that's just not how we functioned. I also think coming from a different background and not being in Congress your whole life, I think we really understood that we were one of 435 members. A lot of people couldn't even say who their congressperson was. So it was really working together that we were able to get stuff done. And that seemed to be a different vibe. So those women in particular have just been such great people to work with and to have my back and to bounce things off of. So it's really. It's been amazing.
- [35:39]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
One of the hallmarks, and I don't know if it's chicken or the egg, but being national security folks, none of you is reflexively partisan. And I don't want to use moderate as sort of the mushy political sense of moderation, but obviously I was in the other party, and so I've been smeared as a moderate for years. It used to be rhino, but whatever that means politically. I mean, I think your sensibilities are policy wise, relatively moderate. And I wonder how you think the Democratic Party is doing, understanding that in a lot of places, that's the only way to win.
- [36:16]
Mikey Sherrill
Yeah, there is this sense. And I remember talking to Chrissy Houlihan a couple months ago about just moving forward on some House Armed Services thing and who she was working with, and I was interested in it. And that same sense of, I don't think any of us from the military come from this place where we feel like we're very partisan. I mean, most of the people I worked with in my squadron, I couldn't have even told you what their political party was. And so I think it's sort of that focus on getting stuff done. But I actually see a lot of that in some of the newer members. I think you're seeing this breakage from the political parties. I think things are being realigned right now. And so even some of the people that are more to the left of the party, if they say good ideas, they connect with people in my state. If they're a fighter, they'll connect. So I recently saw a weird poll in my state of all Democrats and The two most popular people, and they surveyed all the Jersey Democrats and some national Democrats. The two most popular people, 80% plus approval rating, were myself and Bernie Sanders. Which, you know, it's kind of trippy. And yet I can tell you that, you know, most people on street aren't going to say, oh, you know what, I'm center left or right, I'm this,
- [37:34]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
it's like an artificial label.
- [37:36]
Mikey Sherrill
It's artificial. What they want to see as somebody who's taking on the status quo, who's sort of, again, not to harp on it, but to your Dave point, just calling out some of the basic stuff and saying, let's just get this done. Everybody knows this is a problem, so let's find a solution that we can all live with and go. And I think that's connecting right now. And I think that if the party gets caught up in fighting itself, I think a lot of that's an artificial thing that is really pushed by right wing media. Those divides are constantly being exploited. I saw it a lot in my campaign. Instead of really focusing on, hey, look, I'm trying to drive down your costs. Mom, Donnie's trying to drive down your cost. Angie, Craig's trying to drive down your, I mean, you know, every corner of the party, we're trying to drive down your cost. And there's no plan to do that across the aisle. So, yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's an interesting dynamic right now.
- [38:36]
Podcast Producer / Narrator
My conversation with New Jersey governor Mikey Sherrill continues right after the break. We'll be right back.
- [38:50]
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- [40:35]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
I mean, I feel like Democrats, too, have become better at resisting the false choice. Like, I feel like Trump 1.0 Democrats struggle with whether or not to fight Trump or deal with kitchen table issues. Those fights seem to be over. They seem to understand that the voters want you to fight, and that often means fight. Trump's placement of ICE agents in places where their leashes are so long they'll kill Americans in the streets of Minneapolis, and they want you to make things cheaper. I mean, we should be better at covering Trump. People should be better at confronting him. But does that ring true to you?
- [41:07]
Mikey Sherrill
What I don't do in general is I don't throw gratuitous punches at Trump. So I remember during my campaign, somebody wanted me to come on Interview or a podcast and talk about the video where he's flying and he's dumping poo on no Kings protest.
- [41:25]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
Yes.
- [41:25]
Mikey Sherrill
And I had no interest. I'm like, that's the least of my problems is some AI video. It's just. No, I'm not doing that. I am running to drive down costs for New Jerseyans. If you want me to come on your podcast and talk about his crypto accounts and how the UAE paid him off to lift some sanctions, sure. But if you want me to talk about some weird video or the east wing of the White House or the Rose Garden, I'm not doing that. You know, I'm looking at fights that are systemic and problematic and driving up costs for people. I'm not looking at problems of a patio off the White House that a good bulldozer can deal with in a week. What I know I'm driving, and what I think some. Some people have really come to terms with is if you're going to attack Trump, you should be connecting it to how what he is doing is harming people. I think what's been different in this cycle is he's harming so many people. The tariffs, I mean, everybody knows that's driving your costs up and there's no way he can say your grocery store prices aren't high because we all go to the grocery store. Right. It's just nonsensical. This Iranian war, all the ways I feel about it and our international relationships and the 50 years that we've built them up and how we never fight alone. Those are my thoughts. But I can tell you that the thought I share with every single New Jerseyan is gas is too high.
- [42:47]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
I appreciate the sieve. I think I call it a sieve through which I push Trump stories. If no one is going to die, I try to sort of get to it in a minute. And so I know what you're saying. The things that cause outrage and that can sort of run 3, 4, 5 news cycles, but maybe don't threaten people's lives or livelihoods or stories that can wait until Democrats are in power. I mean, on that point of power, how do you see Democrats prospects in the midterms? And do you think the elections will be fair?
- [43:16]
Mikey Sherrill
I think we should win the House. I'm hopeful for the Senate. I don't have as good of a feel for that. I come from the House, as you know, the elections, I'm very concerned about them. As I mentioned, I have been asked for voter roll data by the president. That's one of the ways we're in court right now. He has sued me for those voter roll data, that voter roll data, and I've refused to turn it over. I assume Abbott turned it over, Texas turned it over, which means that he has a lot of personal identifying data for people in Texas, which, yes, is a red state, but there are blue areas of it and blue congressional districts. So I'm not sure why he asked for that data. We are doing everything we can at the state level to make your ability to vote fair and unrestricted and that you're not going to be afraid to go to the polls. So we have mail in votes, which of course he's attacking, probably so he can scare people away from poll polls. We have early in person voting. We're coming up with some different ways to try to make it even easier to vote. And, you know, with concerns specifically about our largely Latino areas and ICE agents trying to go there to keep voters away, I am very concerned that there are other states, Republican states, who are going to make it harder and harder and harder to vote safely for people and try to impose a real cost on people. And so will it be fair everywhere? I'm very worried about it. You know, we'll see as we go forward, but we've seen different chicanery taking place a little bit. I assume there were just different ways they were testing to do that. But I think in your blue states, you'll, you'll see we can take into court. We can largely run a fair election. It is a state purview, so we should be successful in court. But I'm worried about other states.
- [45:04]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
Virginia followed California with new maps. I know it's a little harder in New Jersey, but what is your feeling about, about what California, Virginia have done and are you looking at it for New Jersey?
- [45:15]
Mikey Sherrill
So New Jersey would have to pass through the legislature, I think, twice. A constitutional, you know, a vote for the constitutional change to get on the ballot. So we can't get it on the ballot for this year. And you know, unfortunately, I think you have to fight fire with fire. I don't like it. I don't think anybody likes it. But I think at the end of the day, if you are seeing the president try to rig the elections through Texas, possibly through Florida, through other states, you've got to fight for democracy sometimes in some weird ways, but we got to be able to stand toe to toe here to create a fair election. If we stood by and simply allowed these states to change, you know, midstream, to change all their districts and create these unfair districts and artificially take the House, you know, that would just be a huge blow to democracy. But I think going forward, because we've been able to go toe to toe with this, it hasn't had Trump take on a longer term strategy of pushing even more states to go further and further.
- [46:27]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
He served with Eric Swalwell. He was summarily run out of the governor's race in Congress when revelations became public of his alleged sexual assault and sexual misconduct. Democrats seemed to respond to that in a way that very much had the centering of the victims in mind, in a way that the Epstein story, I think has trained everybody, the media, Democrats and Republicans, if you include Thomas Massie and even some of the MAGA friendly members to center that issue around the victims. Is that something that you hear about in your sort of meetings or interactions with your constituents?
- [47:07]
Mikey Sherrill
People, I think, are very upset over the Epstein files and there is the sense that they want them released. But I think there also is this real disgust at all of the people who acted in this way and who were involved in this way. All the opportunities that someone could have said, there are teenagers being trafficked here. And yet both seem to feel above the law and that, you know, Somehow that wasn't beyond the pale. And I think for those of us who have been teenage girls, who have teenage girls, you know, I'm a child of the 90s. You know, I graduated in the 90s. I grew up in the, I guess, child of the 80s maybe. You know, I always felt like an adult and like I had control. But you look at, like, Monica Lewinsky and you look at, I mean, Kavanaugh's description. That was my high school experience, right? A bunch of parties when people's parents weren't home, with a lot of alcohol, probably a lot going on, and. And people in non consent situations. And I'm sort of appalled that that was how that was. And I even watched that movie on Sixteen Candles and think, wait, that's date rape that I loved in high school. That's date rape. You know, so all of these things, you're just. I think we thought we had moved into a better place. Teaching kids about consent and making sure, and then to see that that still seems to be going on everywhere is so defeating. I mean, that's the conversations I hear from my constituents. Is everybody just sleeping with people that work for them? And I think coming from the Navy, when you have this hierarchy and there's a huge power dynamic of the people that are working for you in a chain of command, that's also so offensive. You know, I've spoken to some parents, like, gosh, my kid works on the Hill. You know, I'm gonna talk to them about this. And that's the downside. The upside is, I will say, in speaking to young people and speaking to their parents, there seems to be a much more. People seem to feel much more empowered to come forward with that in a way that I always thought. Cause, you know, I was in the Navy, so there was sexual harassment and stuff like that. At that time, I never felt like I could tell anyone. I felt like that would sound weak, that I was a whiner. I just had to somehow figure out how to deal with it and rebuff it. And, you know, I had all these tactics like use humor, don't be alone with that guy, or whatever. But I do think now people feel confident to come forward and say, I told him to stop. He didn't. And I need someone to handle this. Not everyone, of course, and it's never acceptable. But I do feel, you know, if I'm trying to find some light in the tunnel here, I do feel like there is a much greater sense that this is not. And to your point of really having a Victim centered approach. This is not your fault. If you are being sexually harassed, that is not your fault and that is not your problem. It's the perpetrator's problem and you should come forward. And I feel like in many spaces that's occurring. I don't want to overstate it because I'm sure it's not in a lot
- [50:29]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
of spaces, but around the same age, we're sort of the suck it up generation. And it does feel like younger women have taken a step up the ladder. And to your point, it's not perfect, but it's probably better from the way it was. I guess the last thing I wanted to ask you about was how much of the groundbreaking, being in the military, breaking barriers there, not that you were the first, but that you traveled a path that wasn't necessarily expected. How much of that do you carry with you? And how much are you just in the moment with. With your instincts and with your own support network and your own sensibilities as a mom and a public servant, doing what you think is right? You know, what is your sort of day in the life mindset?
- [51:16]
Mikey Sherrill
I carry so much more of it with me than I thought I did. So, you know, when you come up in a certain way, I don't think you realize anything's different about it or. And for many years I don't think I really realized it, but I do now, maybe because you campaign and you explore why you're doing this, because you have to tell your constituents why you're running and what your values are and why this what motivates you. And so I've had to do a lot of exploration on that. And there is so much of just how the military does things. It's very proactive. I always joke, you know, if you're standing on a hill, getting shot at, you don't have to take the perfect or the best way off that hill, but you better get your butt off that hill, right? So. So there's a sense of moving through a crisis that you need momentum, that you can't stand still. If things aren't going right, you have to come up with a solution. You have to execute it. If that doesn't work, then you have to pivot and find that way to carry through. You know, going to the Naval Academy, it was a training in leadership. There was this constant training. And I wish I could tell you that I was this great student in leadership. I think I rolled my eyes at half of it. But then it. You find that you were brainwashed through it. So often told a story, and sometimes I still tell this story about, you know, ships running aground and everyone on the bridge knowing it's going to happen and no one's saying anything. And that was taught to us in leadership class. And this idea that if you're the kind of person that, you know, when I want your opinion, I'll tell you what it is, then nobody's going to come to you with problem, nobody's going to give you real insights, and you're going to run aground pretty soon. So, you know, creating this atmosphere where you don't shut down, people are telling you things you don't want to hear is critical. And this sense that you have a responsibility to the people you serve. In the army, they say leaders eat last. And I see this in other former military members who are in public service. You carry that with you. This sense that I'm not just sitting here because it's fun to be governor. I'm sitting here because people are relying on me, and I have a responsibility to those people, and if I don't get this right, then they're gonna suffer, and that's gonna be on me. And so when I say I'm in office. Cause I think government can change people's lives again and again, I trace it. In my own family, I talk about poor government that led to the Great Depression and my grandpa losing everything, and then getting a good union job and having a good pension and getting into a good house that was built by the wpa and because he was a veteran, and all these ways government put my family squarely into the middle class. And I hear those stories again and again and again from my community, from people my age, not hearing those stories from younger people. And that's what we want to create here.
- [54:11]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
Governor, it's a pleasure to have this much time with you. Thank you so much for this time.
- [54:15]
Mikey Sherrill
Well, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed it. I appreciate it, and congrats. I think the podcasting world is not an easy one to break into, and you are just knocking it out of the park.
- [54:26]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
People just sniff out the bullshit. I mean, that's. That's, you know, we go. We go deep in ways that make me sweat asking the questions. So thank you for answering all of them.
- [54:34]
Mikey Sherrill
No, I like. I like this format. It's not like the clip, right? It's like really getting into it.
- [54:39]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
The podcast listener is like, so onto you. And people come up and they say, oh. And they.
- [54:44]
Podcast Producer / Narrator
They.
- [54:45]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
They listen to it. They internalize it. Not everyone will do it. So thank you so much.
- [54:49]
Mikey Sherrill
Well, thank you and how a great one.
- [54:51]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
You too. Take care.
- [54:52]
Mikey Sherrill
Thanks.
- [54:58]
Podcast Producer / Narrator
Thank you so much for listening to the Best People.
- [55:00]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
And a note to listeners.
- [55:01]
Podcast Producer / Narrator
Tickets are now available for a live taping of the Best People with iconic documentarian Ken Burns. It's happening at the 92nd Street Y in New York City on Tuesday, May
- [55:12]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
12, as America's 250th anniversary approaches.
- [55:16]
Podcast Producer / Narrator
Ken Burns, I will dig into what our own history tells us about the state of our democracy today.
- [55:21]
Interviewer / Podcast Host
We'll have a link in our show Notes where you can learn more.
- [55:24]
Podcast Producer / Narrator
All episodes of this podcast are also available on YouTube. Visit msnow thebestpeople to watch the Best People is produced by Vicki Vergelina. Our intern is Colette Holcomb, with additional production support from Joanne Kong, Priyanka Sarkel and Ayan Chatterjee. Our audio engineers are Bob Mallory and Hazik Bin Ahmad Farad. Katie Lau is our senior manager of audio production Pat Berkey is the senior Executive Producer of Deadline White House Brad Gold is the executive producer of Content strategy Aisha Turner is the executive Producer of audio and Madeline Herringer is Senior VP in charge of audio, digital and long form. Search for the best people wherever you get your pop and be sure to follow the series.
- [56:16]
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Mikey Sherrill
Oh no.
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