Jacob Soboroff: “The American People Are Being Lied To”

Summary

Podcast Summary: Jacob Soboroff: “The American People Are Being Lied To”

The Best People with Nicolle Wallace
Guest: Jacob Soboroff
Release Date: August 4, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Best People with Nicolle Wallace, host Nicolle Wallace engages in an in-depth conversation with renowned journalist Jacob Soboroff. Soboroff delves into the pressing issue of mass deportation in the United States, highlighting the human impact behind the statistics and the misinformation propagated by the current administration.

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Personal Reflections and Experiences

Jacob Soboroff begins by sharing his personal experiences over the past year, particularly focusing on the devastating fires in his hometown of Pacific Palisades and Altadena. He reflects on how these events have deepened his connection to the community and underscored the volatility of the current socio-political climate.

“It's only, you know, we got, we got a lot more of 20, 25 to go.”
(05:17)

Soboroff emphasizes the importance of staying grounded and connected with loved ones amidst chaos, attributing his resilience to the support from family, friends, and colleagues like Nicolle Wallace.

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Mass Deportation and Policy Critique

The conversation shifts to the heart of the episode: the administration's mass deportation policies. Soboroff criticizes the misleading portrayal of these actions, arguing that the administration misrepresents who is being targeted and the true nature of these deportations.

“Mass deportation is family separation by another name.”
(06:06)

He contends that the rhetoric used by officials, labeling deportees as criminals, starkly contrasts with the reality—families, including fathers, mothers, sons, and daughters, are being torn apart. Soboroff underscores that these individuals are not the "worst of the worst" but ordinary people caught in harsh immigration enforcement.

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The Barranco Family Story

A poignant highlight of the episode is Soboroff's recounting of his interview with Alejandro Barranco and his father, Narciso Barranco. Narciso, a proud father of three Marines, shares his harrowing experience of being detained and the impact on his family.

“The only thing I would tell him is that as human beings, as people, we have an opportunity. And if there is something within the families, just don't separate the families. That's the only thing.”
(31:53)

Alejandro's emotional plea to President Trump encapsulates the human cost of these policies. The story serves as a powerful testament to the resilience of individuals and the devastating effects of dehumanizing immigration enforcement.

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Dehumanization and Racism in Immigration Policy

Soboroff delves into the systemic issues underpinning current immigration policies, highlighting the intrinsic racism and intentional cruelty embedded within them. He draws parallels between historical policies and contemporary practices, illustrating how marginalized communities continue to bear the brunt of these oppressive measures.

“So much of US Immigration policy is based on meanness on a certain level of generality and racism.”
(47:07)

He critiques the selective enforcement at borders, pointing out the preferential treatment given to certain nationalities over others, which perpetuates inequality and injustice.

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The Role and Responsibility of Journalists

The discussion also touches upon the challenges faced by journalists in conveying the gravity of immigration issues. Soboroff advocates for firsthand reporting and personal engagement with affected communities to authentically represent their stories.

“If you can do it, find a way to meet people who are affected by these types of policies. And don't take my word for it, learn for yourself.”
(15:36)

He emphasizes the importance of empathy and ethical storytelling, striving to balance factual reporting with the emotional weight of the narratives he encounters.

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Emotional Toll and Coping Mechanisms

Soboroff candidly shares the emotional toll that covering such distressing stories has on him and his family. He discusses the balance between professional responsibilities and personal well-being, highlighting the support systems that help him navigate these challenges.

“It's not easy. You see a lot of crazy, gnarly stuff. And when you go home and you realize what you have, you know, it just makes you, it makes you recognize the weight of what we, what we all experience every day.”
(48:36)

Despite the heavy subject matter, Soboroff finds solace in the connections he fosters through his work and the mutual support within his professional and personal circles.

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Call to Action and Final Thoughts

Towards the end of the episode, Soboroff urges listeners to take an active role in witnessing and documenting injustices. He advocates for community involvement and personal accountability in combating misinformation and fostering a more humane society.

“Pick up their phones if you see something like this happening and record and show what's happening out on the streets.”
(43:10)

He concludes with a hopeful note, emphasizing that understanding and empathy can drive meaningful change, urging society to choose a path of opportunity and compassion over destruction and dehumanization.

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Conclusion

This episode of The Best People with Nicolle Wallace offers a profound exploration of the human stories behind mass deportation policies in the United States. Through Jacob Soboroff's insightful reportage and personal reflections, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the complexities and emotional ramifications of immigration enforcement. The conversation serves as a crucial reminder of the importance of truthful, empathetic journalism in illuminating the realities faced by vulnerable communities.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jacob Soboroff: “Mass deportation is family separation by another name.”
  (06:06)

• Alejandro Barranco: “The only thing I would tell him is that as human beings, as people, we have an opportunity. And if there is something within the families, just don't separate the families. That's the only thing.”
  (31:53)

• Jacob Soboroff: “So much of US Immigration policy is based on meanness on a certain level of generality and racism.”
  (47:07)

• Jacob Soboroff: “If you can do it, find a way to meet people who are affected by these types of policies. And don't take my word for it, learn for yourself.”
  (15:36)

---

Additional Information:

Listeners interested in further engagement can subscribe to The Best People podcast on Apple Podcasts for an ad-free experience and access exclusive content. Additionally, MSNBC Live 25, an all-day event featuring MSNBC hosts and special guests, is scheduled for October 11th at the Hammerstein Ballroom.

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Produced by Vicki Vergelina, Max Jacobs, Lisa Ferry, Delia Hayes, Colette Holcomb, with audio engineering by Bob Mack and Bryson Barnes.

Transcript

[Kelly Ripa]

Hey there, it's Kelly Ripa. And if you've been listening to my podcast, we are knee deep in season three. And if you haven't heard it, it's time to get on board. After years of interviewing celebs on camera, I finally get to bring you the real conversations that take place when the cameras aren't rolling. Where else are you going to hear Michelle Obama talk about keeping her girls out of Page Six? Hilaria Baldwin's hilarious reaction to Alec running for office? Or Jeremy Renner's lucid hallucinations about Jamie Foxx? Nowhere else. It's raw, it's honest, and best of all, it's off camera. And believe me, that's where you get the good stuff. So download. Let's talk off camera with Kelly Ripa now. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Scott Aukerman]

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[Jacob Soboroff]

Here's the bottom line. The American people are being lied to by this administration about who they are going after and why and how. And all you gotta do is open both of your eyes and watch television, listen to your broadcast, and you realize that these are families. These are fathers and daughters and mothers and sons and all of it who are caught in the middle of this. Not not only and not primarily the worst of the worst.

[Nicole Wallace]

Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Best People podcast. We are so lucky to have this week's guest with us. The best people, we have learned, are usually the ones carrying the brightest lights. And. And that is most certainly the case with this week's guest. He's used his light as a public conscience and a tool for accountability. He has sought to shine his journalist eye on some of the most tragic and consequential chapters in recent months and years. He's also fearless and funny and a whole lot of fun to be with. He is, without a doubt, one of the best people I get to work with. So this is the best people. And this is Jacob Soboroff. Thank you for being here, my friend.

[Jacob Soboroff]

You know that the feeling is mutual, Nicole. I know you know that.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, I'm so glad to get to do this because the one thing I always feel on the show is that there's never enough time. Sometimes that's a good thing because I leave in tears. But I'm glad to get to have this time with you.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Thank you sincerely for having me. I'm really excited to do this.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me start upside down. Usually there is something happening in the streets, and you bring the actual stories to us and to our viewers. Let me flip that around and ask you what the last six months have been like for you personally.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Wow. You know. You know, I live in la and I'm from la, and it has been the craziest year of when I signed up for MSNBC. Exactly. Literally, exactly 10 years ago, August of 2015. I remember my boss at the time, Phil Griffin, said, you know, we want you to stay out in California. There's a lot going on out there. And I think, you know, I was happy that I knew I was going to stay out in California, but I also was probably a little fomo. I knew that our company was centered on the east coast, and the news world, which I was so excited to break into, was largely east coast centric. But, man, I'm so glad that I made that decision back then because of specifically what's happened in 2025, starting with January 7th and the fires that destroyed my hometown, Pacific Palisades in Altadena, and displaced tens of thousands of people and thousands and thousands of homes destroyed. You know, I've never experienced anything like that. To go out on television and watch live, which I'm so fortunate to have done, been able to do, you know, particularly on your show. Let me just say, as an aside, there is no other show on television where you will go on and you will get to be on television to tell a story for 30 minutes on live TV. You allow me to go do my thing. And one of those times, I was serious. One of those times was the fire. And there were several conversations that you and I had that, you know, how do you process in real time watching your hometown and your child at home carbonize in front of your own eyeballs? You can't, really, is the answer to that question. And I was able to do it with you, and I'm so grateful to have been able to do that. And then this summer, these raids, these unprecedented raids that are modeled after this racist policy that the Trump administration said very plainly. DWIGHT D. Eisenhower's 1954 operation has torn apart the fabric of my community, but in a way, I feel more connected to it than ever before. So my grateful for my family, grateful for My friends, grateful for my colleagues like you that we've all been able to go through all of this together. And it's only, you know, we got, we got a lot more of 20, 25 to go.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, you were on, you were fresh from a reporting trip in Manhattan at immigration court. And I found what was happening so gutting. And I feel like it is the biggest betrayal of what. I mean, I hate that people were waving mass deportation signs at the Republican Convention. I don't know that all of them thought that the law abiding process respecting asylum seekers and immigrants would be detained and disappeared in courthouses. I would doubt that very many of them thought that's what they were signing up for.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Totally.

[Nicole Wallace]

And I wonder what you think of seeing this policy that you help shine a light on what they, the Trump voter, wanted and then seeing what's actually happening.

[Jacob Soboroff]

I'm not so sure that any of us actually, I mean, you know, what is mass deportation? I've said this to you on your broadcast over and over and over again for far more than six months. Mass deportation is family separation by another name. But none of us knew actually what that was going to look like. Not me, who has covered this very closely over my 10 years here through Democratic and Republican administrations, but also not the Trump supporters who, I don't know exactly what they thought they were going to be voting for. Those signs said mass deportation. Mass deportation means mass deportation. There aren't enough, quote, unquote, worst of the worst to fill up the mass deportation bucket, so to speak. But I don't think that even I knew what it would look like. And now we know. And I think a lot of people are starting to, I don't want to call it buyer's remorse, but I think it's shocking the conscience, just like family separation did. Just like that Republican appointed judge said in the Southern District of California in the summer of 2018, that ripping families apart shocks the conscience of anybody who sees what's happening, violates due process, rips apart again the fabric of our communities. And now we're seeing it take place at Home Depots and at fruit carts and at flower stands and in the hallways of immigration court, where people are trying to go and do the right thing. And I think, although I can't say for sure, I think people are starting to really see this for what it is.

[Nicole Wallace]

And what is it?

[Jacob Soboroff]

Cruelty. Intentional cruelty. Just like Adam Serwer coined for the Atlantic, the cruelty is the point. And when we, and I can't thank you enough for your support of the film, when we made Separated, Errol Morris and I, I think that there were a lot of people who even counseled me when I would go out to talk about the project. You know, be careful in the way in which you describe sort of the nature of what happened. But the truth of the matter is it doesn't matter what I think, just look at the objective facts around it. There are emails that stated very plainly one that comes to mind when reunifications are starting to happen during family separation. This undermines the whole effort. Jonathan White, the career civil servant for hhs, who was the center of the film, who tried everything he could to stop the policy, said harm to children was the point. They knew this all along. And now here we are with the super sized version of it and people are getting to see it and experience it themselves, especially residents of Southern California and now people here in New York City. But this is with the budget that was approved in this so called big beautiful bill. This is coming to a city near you and you're gonna get to experience it too. I say with a lot of regret and a lot of sadness.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's such an important point. And I remember when your film was done and you guys, you came on my show, but it wasn't everywhere. It wasn't wall to wall. And I remember thinking that Trump would probably like it to be wall to wall, that this was the disconnect, right, between Earth 1 and Earth 2. That the cruelty was in the Trump administration's view and in Trump's own telling, that was the deterrent. That was their strategy. Right?

[Jacob Soboroff]

If only he could sort of stick to his guns about that. Because it's so interesting to see. I think, you know, I think you're right. It's why Katie Waldman, Katie Miller, Stephen Miller's now wife, invited me inside those facilities. They wanted us to see and for the world to see the cruelty that was being perpetrated upon innocent migrants, families, children, so that other people would turn around and, and be scared shitless and run away and not come to the country. But when hundreds of thousands of people came to the streets, millions of people came to the streets. The Pope spoke out that ProPublica audio leaked by Ginger Thompson where the Border Patrol agents were saying to crying children, oh, it sounds like we have an orchestra here. Came out, yeah, yeah, babies. We all remember exactly where we were when that happened. He decided, he said, I didn't like the sight of, or the feeling of the families being separated. He wasn't saying, I'm morally opposed to what's going down. He's saying, ah, this isn't so good for me. And I think that there has already been a moment like that in this term with this, with these policies. You know, in the very early days of the LA raids, I was on your broadcast from a farm in Oxnard where they were literally chasing people through strawberry fields and you could smell the strawberries sitting there rotting because workers were too scared to come to work. And right away he changed his mind and had reversed the policy. But, but look who's around him now. You know, this is Stephen Miller's dream. And very soon after Donald Trump said, we're going to take care of it, we're going to take care of the farm workers, whatever, it was made clear again that, that these policies were going to move forward. And they have, and they've continued to move forward. So I think it is what they want everybody to see. They want to scare people. But it's almost like he can't help himself when he realizes how bad it truly is. What Stephen Miller has basically convinced him to do, whether he fully understands what's happening or not, he realizes that they are hurting people and that other people are noticing and are appalled by this behavior of the federal government.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, and they include Joe Rogan, who said, I didn't sign up for this, doesn't like the. As you're talking about the images of people being rounded up. I think you did one of the first reports on television of people being rounded up at the Home Depot parking.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Lot on your broadcast just a couple days after all of this started. It was Pablo Alvarado from National Day Labor Organizing Network. They're showing up at Home Depot day labor centers where people go and wait around for someone to come by and say, hey, can you help me out with the drywall at my house or put a piece of glass up by my shower or whatever. Everyday tasks. And they're chasing after these people that are just looking to make a buck.

[Nicole Wallace]

What is the disconnect in terms of the overwhelming number of people who say they want adjudicated criminals deported?

[Jacob Soboroff]

I think that people probably, I mean, this is just my personal feeling about it, play over in their head over and over again what Donald Trump said when he came down the golden escalator. Rapists, murderers, criminals. It's always been the first thing out of his mouth. Even Tom Homan today I saw the border czar say, you know, we're going after the worst elements, criminals. But the data just doesn't reflect that fact. Here's the bottom line. The American people are being lied to by this administration about who they are going after and why and how. And all you gotta do is open both of your eyes and watch television, listen to your broadcast, talk to anybody who might have any skin in the game whatsoever, and you realize that these are families. These are fathers and daughters and mothers and sons and all of it who are caught in the middle of this. Not not only and not primarily the worst of the worst. And that's just an objective fact that you can actually see in the data. You don't even have to see the personal stories, but the personal stories, I think, are what really hit home and are what are starting to resonate with people.

[Nicole Wallace]

I spoke to Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach, who are bearing witness in not a narrow way, but an important way for the children during court, where children are being asked to defend themselves and answer questions. And they were horrified. And I hadn't heard the stories they told before they told them. I mean, where is the organized sort of communication to the American people around what is happening? Or is it up to all of us to go find the truth?

[Jacob Soboroff]

I think it's the latter. I don't think we can rely on anybody, actually, to sort of give us that light bulb necessarily. And it's why I encourage. I wear this little badge on my pants as my NBC News badge for people that are just listening and are not seeing it. It's a past to have X ray vision about what's going on in our society. And I would encourage every journalist right now, especially people in New York, to go down to 26 Federal Plaza and see the way that they're treating people. Even the families that are not being apprehended, but the mothers and fathers with their little babies who are going to check in an immigration court are walking through a gauntlet, like a physical gauntlet of masked, armed ICE agents, whether or not it's the intention, are terrorizing these people in service of whatever this immigration policy is that's being put forward by this administration. And there are every day. You sent me the article this morning from the New York Times about the different organizations that are popping up in communities around the country to go see this with your own eyes. Go stand in a Home Depot parking lot. If you live in Southern California, chances are you're going to see federal agents roll by and take a look and see if anybody's there. And then think about how that makes you feel. Think about how that connects to your everyday life, and maybe you'll go about your day Slightly differently. Maybe you'll tell somebody a story about what you saw or what you heard, or you'll share a post. It's really hard. Even my own siblings sometimes will say to me, hey, why don't you post about this issue or that issue that's going on around the globe? And my answer always is I like to talk about what I'm able to see with my own eyes. Facts on the ground, which I'm sure very familiar with the military and diplomatic term. That's how I operate. And when I have my own set of facts on the ground, I never feel more confident as a reporter or a person to be able to talk to people about what's happening in our country. And so I always tell people, like, if you can do it, find a way to meet people who are affected by these types of policies. And don't take my word for it, learn for yourself.

[Nicole Wallace]

I want to sort of platform the note specifically about journalists because I think it's an important one. And not that, I mean there are a lot of pressures bearing down on journalists, but from a place of sort of love and understanding of the mission if as many people who went and sat in the courtroom when Donald Trump was on trial in New York went to federal explain.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Well, we had here at NBC, at msnbc, excuse me. Every day I think we had a rotation. I wasn't part of it. Cause I live out in la. But almost every one of the primetime anchors correspondents got the opportunity, if they wanted to, to go down and sit and look at Donald Trump. At Donald Trump's criminal trial.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Jacob Soboroff]

And, and just to see what it looked like with their own eyes. What did he look like? What was the feeling in the room? What was the topic of conversation on that particular day? We should do that, we should do that with 26 Federal Plaza. Because at 26 Federal Plaza, every single day, and by the way, at other immigration courts inside of Manhattan as well, there are masked armed federal agents standing around who are literally rendering people to a back secret room on the 10th floor who show up for their, their immigration hearings because they want to play by the rules. And it's one thing to talk about it, it's another thing to read about it, it's another thing to see it on television. But when give this pass is a, is a, is a privilege and it allows you to be able to go and experience these things and sit with your own feelings and emotions yourself. I'm not somebody who, who runs away from my emotions on television. And in part because of the way that you pulled them out of me. I remember during the fires, I was standing on a street corner and I said something, I think, about what used to be here, here and here down the block. And you kind of stopped me and said, wait a minute, tell me more. And you allowed me to access. It felt like a therapy session.

[Nicole Wallace]

I think it was a grocery store, right? And there were still.

[Jacob Soboroff]

And my pediatrician as well, and the veterinarian and the Chinese restaurant around the corner. It gave me the chill saying this, because it all comes back. As someone who has a personal therapist and a couple's therapist, I think my wife would be okay with me saying this. It was a bit of therapy on national television. And I think that we all, as reporters should allow ourselves to access those emotions, because we're people too. We're not Ron Burgundy's. We're not just showing up and reading what it says on the teleprompter in order to deliver you what somebody else wrote about what's happening out there. And what a lucky guy I am to have the opportunity to go see and experience these things myself and have colleagues like you who allow me to communicate them to people who. And I mean our audience, I care a lot about because they care about us. That's the special thing about msnbc, actually, is that this is a place where it actually isn't about the politics, it's about the people. And I mean that both directions. It's about the connection that you and I have and our colleagues have, but it's also about the connection and the trust that people place in us at a time when trust in media, I think is at all time lows. And so I want to use that trust responsibly. And showing up in places like 26 Federal Plaza, for me or anybody else that wants to go, I think is a good way to do that.

[Nicole Wallace]

We're going to sneak in a quick break here. We'll have much more with my friend and colleague, journalist and authority Jacob Soboroff, on the other side. Don't go anywhere.

[Jacob Soboroff]

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[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, you just articulated the whole thing, right? I mean, Rachel and I got at this a little bit when I had a chance to talk to her. But in a lot of ways, since Trump won a second time, our jobs got easier because it's clear what the mission is, right? And there's a really successful effort on the right to mock the pain people feel when humans are dehumanized and when the cruelty sort of maims the soul or the public conscience. They have operationalized this smear of snowflakes.

[Jacob Soboroff]

I was just gonna say it. You wanna know who the snowflake is? It's the people who are tweeting at me because they're uncomfortable with my reporting.

[Nicole Wallace]

I get it, too.

[Jacob Soboroff]

That's a snowflake.

[Nicole Wallace]

I get it, too.

[Jacob Soboroff]

That's a snowflake. A snowflake is not somebody who decides to go out and see something with their own eyes in order to communicate something from a vulnerable place. When you know what kind of incoming you're about to get for sure. The snowflake is the person who sits behind their keyboard and will tweet some absolute bullshit at you. Excuse me? About you just relaying what you saw with your own eyeballs.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right, right.

[Jacob Soboroff]

That's a snowflake.

[Nicole Wallace]

Exactly. But they're so good at the public shaming of people who care that maybe someone innocent was swept up in a raid and sent to a third country or a terrorist prison. They're so effective at the bullying of anyone in the arena with a conscience.

[Jacob Soboroff]

They love buzzy words, whether it's, you know, illegals or aliens or, in the case of the fires, new scum. I mean, they just want to say the thing they think is going to be shared or retweeted or get people fired up instead of get people thinking. By the way, the same can be true for people who watch us. I don't want people just to take what I'm saying just because I'm saying it. Look into it on your own, and you decide whether or not I'm telling you the truth about what I saw. That goes both ways. And so the snowflake aspect of it that just drives me crazy is when it actually doesn't drive me crazy anymore. It used to drive me crazy. I used to respond.

[Nicole Wallace]

I like it. Now I like it.

[Jacob Soboroff]

I feel like. Do you still respond on social media to people?

[Nicole Wallace]

I quit X. And so my problem is I don't even see it. I don't even know anymore. I spent years wanting to win them over, feeling like if you knew me, you wouldn't hate me this much. And then I realized a lot of the people tweeting at me were Russian bots. And I thought, this is. And then I had a second kid, and Trump won again. And I was like, I don't have the bandwidth for this. So I started the podcast instead. But, I mean, it's. It's all connected, right? It's. It's. Our audience, I think, sees right through anything shallow or fake. I mean, I. I think this idea of broadcasting is so important for us. Like, the things that impact and the stories we've covered together, I think, achieve this. Things that impact the broadest number of people. So the tariffs, and the truth is largely Trump won. The people that were sort of undecided until the very end, they swung over to him in hopes of economic. Either prosperity or relief from economic anxiety. And the tariffs do nothing to quell that anxiety or lift them up economically. So this story of the tariffs, which you've helped us cover with things you can see with your own eyes. And when Trump says, don't believe your eyes, don't believe your ears, it's a piece of sound from 2017. He's talking about tariffs.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Yep.

[Nicole Wallace]

He's been obsessed with tariffs and people not believing their own economic experience for almost 10 years. But the piece about immigration, it requires the successful dehumanization in the mind of a majority or a large number of Americans and people in the country illegally. I wonder what pieces of you sort of leave out of the stories when they're so raw and there's so much damage being done to families and humans and kids.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Well, I mean, the Barranco story, Alejandro Barranco and his father Narciso, is a great example of that. I think one of the biggest blessings of this job, and sort of the shittiest part of this job, is that you meet people oftentimes in their absolute worst moment that they've ever had in their life. And that's really hard because you have to make a choice about they're not in a great place. And what do you share and what don't you share? What do you share when it comes to showing those images of the parents and children walking through the hallways of armed, masked federal agents who are towering over them? You have to make a lot of decisions that are really consequential that I think about and second guess all the time. I look back at reporting that I did 10 years ago in 2018, during family separation, about the way I approached sources. And really, at the end of the day, these are news stories, but they're really all stories about people and humanity. And I think that I'm no better equipped than anybody else to tell other people's stories. If I could wave a magic wand. I used to say that's about separated. I would like the Show off foundation allow all 5,500 children and their parents that were deliberately taken and tortured, in the words of Physicians for Human Rights, to tell their stories in their own time and in their own way. But that's not how our modern media ecosystem is set up. And so you just try to do the best that you can. And I think I struggle with that a lot. Am I doing the best job that I can? I try to think about what I would do in the context of my own family. I think about them a lot, and I think about the people who I cross paths with a lot. And I just. I frequently think back to whether or not we're representing people in the way that they would want to. And I think we are, and I hope we are. But it's a big responsibility to sit with every day.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, you have little kids. How much are they aware of the stories you cover?

[Jacob Soboroff]

I think that they're aware that there are things going on that are sort of bigger than all of us and that I am doing my best to tell those stories by going out and seeing them. I'm not so sure as a nine year old he knows about family separation. He's asked me if he could read the book or see the movie, but I told them not yet. You know too much. It is, it's a lot. But I also think that I'm happy that they know that I'm able to get to go to all these places and see all these things and experience it all. And that's what I try to communicate to them. It's important to be out there and to have a life outside of our own and to understand other people that don't do or see or experience what we do every day.

[Nicole Wallace]

I wonder if you can sort of take me through your reporting.

[Jacob Soboroff]

I think the story that has stuck with me throughout this, you know, this mass deportation effort the most, and it all happened by happens, it all came about by happenstance, is the Barranco family, Alejandro and Narciso Barranco. Narciso is the father of three Marines, two active duty at Camp Pendleton and one a Marine Corps veteran who served in Afghanistan. Alejandro. And when that video of him being taken down violently by those masked armed federal agents went viral.

[Nicole Wallace]

Get back off your vehicle. Hey, leave him alone, bro.

[Jacob Soboroff]

I think you and I exchanged a text and I tried to find Alejandro when he agreed to come on your show. I think it's one of the most sort of profound and moving and shocking, actually interviews that I've ever been a part of because it. These guys constantly went against my expectations just to reset the story. After he was apprehended and beaten by these agents, he was locked up at the Metropolitan Detention center in downtown LA. He said through his son, there were 70 other people in there. The conditions were awful. He stayed in the clothes that had the blood on them. He still had pepper spray in his eyes. He didn't get to take a shower. He barely had any food or drink. And then he was moved to Adelanto, the ICE detention center in the high desert outside of Los Angeles, where I went during family separation. I'll never forget seeing people curled up in the fetal position in isolation. It was shut down during COVID because the conditions were so awful. A Federal judge shut it down and said, you cannot detain anybody else there. So they moved him there. And after, I think about three weeks in detention, he was released on $3,000 bond, which, by the way, since then the Trump administration has said, we're not releasing anybody else on bond who's swept up in this mass deportation effort. He went home. He went home to Santa Ana, California, and was reunited with his family. And they very graciously invited me to come over and to meet both of them. And I want to play some sound for you, But I also just want to say before I do that again, what an unbelievable privilege to be invited in their home to see, you know, this man who's a landscaper and takes such pride in his work, to show me around his garden, to show me his orange tree, to show me the succulent plants that he was so proud of that had grown from little seedlings into these big, beautiful things. You'll hear when I play some of the audio that we talked in Spanish. He spoke in Spanish and we have a translation. But when he spoke in his garden, he spoke to me in English because he felt comfortable and proud. And it wasn't about the hurt or the hate that he feels like he has felt going through this experience. He doesn't know whether or not he's going to come back or be allowed to stay in the country, even though he raised three boys to be proud of this country. Maybe that's where I should start.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Jacob Soboroff]

To play a little sound from you. I, I asked him about what he thought about the future and where he thought we would go from here. And here's a little bit of what he told me. Let's listen. Are you able to think about the future.

[E]

After what I just been through? We need to live for just today, tomorrow. We don't know.

[Jacob Soboroff]

If you could have a message, any message to President Trump, what would that message be?

[E]

The only thing I would tell him is that as human beings, as people, we have an opportunity. And if there is something within the families, just don't separate the families. That's the only thing.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Don't separate families. It seems like a simple message.

[Nicole Wallace]

But.

[Jacob Soboroff]

It'S not what's happening? My last question for you is this. You have become, I think, a symbol for so many people across the country and across the world of what they see as the injustice of what's happening all across the United States. And you're son a hero. What does that mean to you?

[E]

As I've said, I am proud of my sons on that side. I'm very proud of them. But as for myself, my own value, the humiliation. It's sad because there was something that was left on the floor and they lifted it up with head up high. And there's something very special here. The unity came from the entire town, the communication, the people, because it's true, my son is a hero, but the actual hero is a community. And one is nothing without community and support.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's so incredible. I mean, for you as the storyteller here, to have this story begin and end with family separation just gives me chills.

[Jacob Soboroff]

I was saying to you that you never fail to be or feel surprised by this type of stuff. And what he said there. There's something very special here. Who would say that after being through what he went through?

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Jacob Soboroff]

A man like that, you know, a man who. Who raised three sons, to be proud of this country, to join it and to fight for it, to put their lives on the line, and then the country treats him that way. He still says there's something very special here. He said something else. If I could play it for you too, Nicole, please. About what it was like, and it speaks to the character of this man, Mr. Barranco, what it was like inside of Adelanto, one of the worst by reputation, detention centers in the whole ICE system. And there's a lot to be concerned about, he said at a press conference. When he spoke to the public, he didn't take any questions, but he said that he still had hope. There was hope still inside, and I didn't understand that. How is it possible? And that's what I asked him about. Here's what he said about that. Today I heard you describing being locked up in Adelanto. Even in a place like that, there's still hope. Why did you say that? Why do you feel that way?

[E]

Put yourself in my place. What will you feel? Of course, I'm a human being, and they don't want me to be here. Outside, I'm with the people on the inside because they're my people, people I lived with. And I had hope. As I would always tell them, one day we're going to get out having.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Faith.

[E]

And we haven't done anything bad. It's just simply for working. And I see my reflection in their pain because it's my own.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's incredible.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Yeah. There's a man thinking about everybody he left behind inside that place and not about himself. Talk about selfless. And even in the face of, as he said, a future that's uncertain, he doesn't know where he's going to go or where he's going to end up if he's going to have to go back to Mexico, a place he hasn't been to for 30 years, that his sons have never lived. But he's thinking about other people, name by name, other people who were inside ICE Detention when we talked, people who have little children, the particular challenges that their children face. Specifically, you don't just go in there. You know, I think a lot of people think based on the way that the president talks, people are going in there and it's, it's a bunch of gang bangers or the hardened worst of the worst. And it's, it's fathers like Narciso Barranco.

[Nicole Wallace]

Who raised three sons to serve in the United States military. I mean, it's, it's, you couldn't make it up. We will be right back with more of my conversation with Jacob Souboroff. Stick around.

[Jacob Soboroff]

This is Comedy Bang Bang, the podcast, the promo and in 30 seconds I'm gonna tell you why you should check out the show. I, the host, Scott Aukerman have a light hearted conversation with famous celebrities like Jon Hamm, Alison Williams, Phoebe Bridgers, Jason Alexander, Natasha Lyonne, Bob Odenkirk, just to name a few. Things go a little off the rails when different eccentric characters and oddballs drop by to be interviewed as well. Each week is a blend of conversations and character work from your favorite comedians as well as some new hilarious voices. Comedy Bang Bang the Podcast Listen every every Monday, wherever you get your podcasts. Sometimes an identity threat is a ring of professional hackers. And sometimes it's an overworked accountant who forgot to encrypt their connection while sending bank details. I need a coffee. And you need Lifelock. Because your info is in endless places. It only takes one mistake to expose you to identity theft. Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second. If your identity is stolen, will fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year at lifelock.com SpecialOffer Terms Apply this summer.

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[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, that is the face of people who may have come here illegally decades and decades ago. But he raised his kids to love this country so much. And all three of his sons served.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Not just the country, but. But work to actually dedicate yourself to something, you know, he didn't say you have to go to the Marines. He led by example as a landscaper. He was telling me when I was at his house, he said, look at that tree up there. I used to, before I was a landscaper. Very proud to say this. He said, you know, with clients like that, IHOP or whatever, I would climb up palm trees like that one and cut tree branches. And the smile, the wattage smile on his face when we went from doing just this, the awful, terrible, sad business of recounting the things that he went through to talking about how proud he was just to have to be gainfully employed and to have a job, even if that meant climbing up in a tree and risking his own life that he could fall out. God, he was proud. That's the last clip I want to play for you, actually, is that I asked him about why it was so important to him. Alejandro told you and I both that he was going to go take over for his dad when his dad was locked up to go and service his landscaping clients. And I wonder why that was such a big deal for him and for Narciso, who had asked him to do that when they talked when he was locked up. So I asked him about that. Here's his answer to that. After one of the first conversations, after you were taken by the agents, one of the first things that your dad asked you to do was to keep doing his job for him. Yes. Yes. Why did you ask him that? After you got detained, why was it so important for you to ask Alejandro to keep doing the work?

[E]

First of all, responsibilities. I think that it was dignified work in which I was able to bring home something to eat in support of my household.

[Jacob Soboroff]

He told me, you're a person who loves this country, and you taught your boys to love this country. And your three boys joined the United States Marines. Why did you teach them to love this country so much?

[E]

Because for us Hispanics, it's a land of opportunities. But simply, I've always told them, you want to be someone in life. Watch your record, protect yourself. If you want to be good, you'll be good. And if you don't want to be good, then you can just throw your Life away. It's different. It's just as this country can give us an opportunity, it can also destroy many of us.

[Jacob Soboroff]

That's it, right? Like, that's. That's the central. That is the Narciso Barranco story is that just as this country can give us opportunity and give opportunity to his three American citizen boys, Alejandro going to Afghanistan to protect all of us, his other two ready to go at any minute, it can also destroy many of us. And he's going through that after raising these three wonderful boys. And I think that that so amazingly encapsulates the moment that we're in. What direction do we want to go in? Do we want it to be a country of opportunity? Do we want it to be a country that can destroy so many of us who are giving back? And is there any better? We talked before about representing people well and allowing them to speak for themselves. I'm so glad he decided to talk because he was very nervous, but I am so glad that he shared that message, and I'm not the one that needs to relay it or paraphrase it. You heard it from him. That's a decision we have to make as a people, as reporters, as neighbors. Which direction do we want to go in right now? And thank goodness for Narciso and Alejandro and their family for sort of walking us through this moment and allowing us to think about it like that.

[Nicole Wallace]

Do you ever allow yourself to think about what four years of this will be like? How many Narciso's lives will be ruined?

[Jacob Soboroff]

Oh, yeah. I think every day there's a Narciso. For every Narcissos that we see, there's probably orders of magnitude more behind the scenes that we don't know about. It's why it's so important, by the way, for everybody to pick up their phones if they see something like this happening and record and show what's happening out on the streets, because that's the only way that we know. We only know about Narciso because I follow an Instagram called the Santanaro, which is a Orange county citizen journalism outfit, and why I've been trying to repost as many of those videos as I can when I see them coming through. It's heavy to think about that this could go on and on and on. But the heartening side of it is they're all human stories as well. And so often when we talk about immigration, we're talking about points on a bar graph or, you know, whatever, extrapolating data. But every one of these stories is A human story. And that's what I just keep trying to think about because it gets overwhelming when you think about it. Like the numbers or when we talk about immigration, like the weather, that it's a flow or a flood or an inundation or a surge. No, it's not. These are all different humans with different stories. And were it not for whatever you want to think, the grace of God or luck or whatever, it could be, you or I in their position and someone else trying to do their best to tell our story.

[Nicole Wallace]

What should it look like? Like what, what everyone talks about. A broken immigration system. Donald Trump seems hell bent on beating former President Obama's numbers. I mean, to your, to your point, the whole debate is so perverted that I don't even know what anyone knows what a sane, humane immigration policy would look like. Like, do you know what that looks like?

[Jacob Soboroff]

Well, you know, I always say I'm not a policymaker, but what I can tell you is, what I have learned is that through decades of bipartisan, deter punitive based immigration policy, America has not changed anything. People still come to this country, even though Donald Trump would say today, well, the numbers are as low as they've ever been and nobody's coming. I promise you they'll come again. Because people are always going to flee violence and persecution and political instability and climate change. You name it, people are. Right now, when we're talking, millions of people are on the move, whatever hemisphere, country, part of the globe that we're talking about. And what I can say for sure, even only after covering this for 10 or 11 years, is that harming people doesn't stop people from coming. And Joe Biden promised a fair, safe, humane, orderly system and did not deliver that. Actually, he leaned into, in the face of political pressure, some of the same restrictive type of policies. It was Stephen Colbert who actually said to me, talk about somebody who wears their heart on their sleeve, that the president with the most courage in, in terms of immigration, maybe, and certainly in my lifetime, most of ours, is Ronald Reagan, who granted amnesty. And I'm not saying amnesty is the solution, but he made a decision at that time. People who have been in the country for a particular amount of time and who have met certain criteria for giving back should have the opportunity to stay here. And the conversation is so far away from recognizing the contributions of people who are already here or who are coming here that I worry that it won't be able to get back there. But that's where I would like the conversation to go. I don't know where the policy goes. But I know that we're not talking about humans right now. We're talking about, we're graphs and charts and records and what president can claim the title of the most deportations ever.

[Nicole Wallace]

But to your point, that's all wrapped in a nine year long. And actually it probably predates Trump and the escalator. He just turbocharged it. It's predicated on the dehumanization of people here illegally. Because the history part, we're all immigrants, we're all from somewhere else. I mean, everybody has an immigration story. How much of this is braided with racism?

[Jacob Soboroff]

Oh, so much of it. I mean, I went, Errol Morris would say when we made separated, that family separation was a policy based on meanness. And I think that he's right. I think that so much of US Immigration policy is based on meanness on a certain level of generality and racism. More specifically, when I reported on your broadcast from Ukraine and I came back from Ukraine and I went to the border in Tijuana and I watched them open the border for tens of thousands of white Ukrainians to enter the country and bypass extraordinarily long lines of black and brown and Asian people who have been waiting on the other side of the border and people from other places all over the world for months, if not years. And why did they do that? You have to ask the people that opened the doors, and this was the Biden administration open the doors to those refugees and not everyone else who has been sitting there. And then I went to Haiti and watched as the Biden administration deported more Haitians than anybody ever had back to for sure, despair, worst case, death, going back to that country after the assassination of the president. But they did it anyway. And so, yeah, I'm making a call that this is, you know, I'm not saying largely and entirely based on who these people are, where they come from, what they look like, but it's hard not to draw those connections when you stand at the border and watch all these people walk in. And yet a whole nother class of people from another place is made to sit there and wait.

[Nicole Wallace]

When people ask you, how do you do this work every day? How do you answer them? What do you say?

[Jacob Soboroff]

I have a wonderful. I work with people I love. I work with people I love, and I'm surrounded by people I love. And that's the only way to do this. You have to find a way to balance all of this with, with your life at home. And I, to be honest with you, I'm not the best at it. And you're gonna make me cry. It's not easy. You see a lot of crazy, gnarly stuff. And when you go home and you realize what you have, you know, it just makes you, it makes you recognize the weight of what you, what we all experience every day and what we talk about every day. And I just feel lucky. I feel lucky to have what I have professionally and personally. And sometimes it's not, you know, it isn't easy. But that's why I love it, because I feel really supported by people like you and people like, like my Nicole and my kids and, and everybody we work with and the people that are out there listening to us right now and watching us, they're, I think all of those people, all of you are how we all get through dealing with some really heavy stuff on a daily basis.

[Nicole Wallace]

It all feels precious. I mean, the country is in such a radical moment that you don't take anything for granted.

[Jacob Soboroff]

We can't let our guard down, whatever we're doing or wherever we're at. And that's why I love coming on with you, Nicole, because you keep me on my toes and you give us this platform. It's the best.

[Nicole Wallace]

No, you're the best. You're the best. Thank you so much for doing this. Thanks for the interview, thanks for all the appearances and thanks for, for keeping us honest.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Thank you for everything, always. You're the best. Thank you.

[Nicole Wallace]

Thank you so much for listening to the best people. Be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to get this and other MSNBC podcasts ad free. As a subscriber you also get early access and exclusive bonus content. I also want to let all our list listeners know we have a live event coming up. It's on Saturday, October 11th at the Hammerstein Ballroom. We will be hosting MSNBC Live 25. This is who we are. It's an all day event featuring some of your favorite MSNBC hosts and special guests including yours truly. Tickets are on Sale now at msnbc.com live25. If you've been enjoying our conversations with the best people, please be sure sure to rate and review the show. Your reviews help others discover the show. All episodes of the podcast are also available on YouTube. Visit msnbc.com the best people to Watch. The Best People is produced by Vicki Vergelina, Max Jacobs and senior producer Lisa Ferry with additional support from Delia Hayes and Colette Holcomb. Our audio engineer is Bob Mack and Bryson Barnes is the head of audio production. Pat Berkey is the executive producer of Deadline White House, Brad Gold is the executive producer of Content Strategy, Aisha Turner is the executive producer of Audio, and Madeline Herringer is senior VP in charge of audio, Digital and Long Form.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Foreign.

[Kelly Ripa]

Hey there, it's Kelly Ripa, and if you've been listening to my podcast, we are knee deep in Season three, and if you haven't heard it, it's time to get on board. After years of interviewing celebs on camera, I finally get to bring you the real conversations that take place when the cameras aren't rolling. Where else are you going to hear Michelle Obama talk about keeping her girls out of Page 6? Hilaria Baldwin's hilarious reaction to Alec running for office, or Jeremy Renner's lucid hallucinations about Jamie Foxx? Nowhere else. It's raw, it's honest, and best of all, it's off camera. And believe me, that's where you get the good stuff. So download. Let's talk off Camera with Kelly Ripa now. Wherever you get your podcasts.