← The Best People with Nicolle Wallace
The Best People with Nicolle Wallace
Jim Acosta Is Still Asking the Tough Questions
00:50:30
Jim Acosta held Donald Trump to account for years as a CNN White House correspondent. He’s still calling it like he sees it.
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B
He has completely sold out his own base. And the crypto thing, I think, is another example of that. I think people totally get. I don't know about you, but when I was at barbecues and parties and stuff around the fourth, people were talking about that. They were like, wow, how in the heck did he make all of that money? And of course, you know, it's because I'm just going on a limb and say this. He's kind of a crook.
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A
Hi there, everyone. So what would you do? It's a question that every single person covering Donald Trump had to wrestle with. What would you do if your company asked you to tone it down a bit? Or did a deal that felt a whole lot more like a payoff than a legal settlement? Or what if your boss destroyed the credibility of your show or made a move that looked more designed to curry favor? A lot of us would like to think that we would do the right and noble thing, but not everybody is able to or willing to. And that's what places this week's guest in a bright light of courage and principle and integrity. Jim Acosta Spent nearly 18 years at CNN asking Donald Trump the tough questions for a lot of them during his first term, earning him a spot on Donald Trump's list of perceived enemies. Jim became someone who encapsulated everything that Donald Trump hates about the First Amendment and a free press. And his exit from CNN was an early warning of just how much news organizations would bend the knee to Donald Trump. Now as an independent journalist and the host of the Jim Acosta Show. Jim tries to live by what he said when he left cnn. Quote, don't give in to the lies, don't give in to the fear. Hold on to the truth and to hope. So this is the best people, and this is one of them. Jim Acosta, thank you so much for being here.
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B
Oh, my gosh, I am humbled by that open. I'm not worthy, as they used to say on Wayne's World, but thank you.
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A
But all of us think about, there was one other that made me think, what would I do? There was this Yeoman Wilder is a baseball coach, and ICE came and started bothering some of his players. And he literally put himself between his players and ice. And it's the only other time I thought, what would I do? But obviously, journalists like yourself make all of us covering Trump sort of wrestle with what would we do. So if you could just take me back to your decision to leave cnn.
- [03:21]
B
Yeah, I mean, I, I will tell you that I sort of thought this might happen. So that gave me a little time to prepare a little bit. I had thought about, well, what if I need to do something like the Jim Acosta show? Maybe I should start thinking about this. But when he was reelected In November of 2024, I thought, well, this is not good for me. If he's back, he's going to want to get revenge. I remember I had lunch one day with a Trump advisor. This is during the Biden presidency. And this was an old source of mine. And he said, oh, just, just so you know, you're on their list, like, if we possibly get back in there, you are definitely on the list. We are going to get you.
- [04:00]
A
It was basically, what did that mean? Like, for. For humiliation, for prosecution, for. What is that?
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B
Well, it was. It was suggested to me at the time that this person knew people who knew John Malone, who was on the board at Warner Brothers Discovery. And it was essentially the message was being sent, you know, like, hey, yeah, just so you know, nobody on our side likes you, and we have powerful friends. Now, whether that means that is that conclusive proof of anything, you know, that that's just me hearing a threat from somebody who was a source and actually, you know, somebody that I sort of got along with. But the message was very clear that if he got back in there, it was not going to be good for me. And so when he got reelected, I thought, okay, this is not going to be good. And within weeks, the writing was on the wall and, you know, obvious it was made Very clear to me that I was to leave before he comes back into office. And, you know, they offered a midnight time slot and all this stuff. And I was like, well, why would I take that? That's insane. You know, that kind of thing. So I don't know, it, it was, it was not a pleasant experience.
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A
But what did they say to you?
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B
It was, it was made very clear to me that, you know, my time was up and, you know, I think they would probably say, oh, no, no, no, we just wanted to have him be on at midnight. So many people are watching then and it's nine out west, it's nine out west and all this, you know, and my thought at the time was, is that, do you realize how bad this looks for you? It wasn't so much how bad it looks for me. I thought, do you know, understand that people are going to see right through this. Everybody in this business is going to know exactly what's going on. Have you thought this part through? And it was just abundantly clear to me that there was intense pressure for me to be gone. And, you know, when I delivered that message, one final message. Don't give into the lies. Don't give in to the fear. Hold on to the truth and to hope. You know, my thought at the time was, you know, and Trump had just pardoned the January six rioters and you know, there were law firms and universities and all these, all these folks were doing this God awful stuff. And I just thought to myself, okay, if you're going to have one exit, you might as well go out with a bang and say something that I think a lot of people needed to hear. And it was something that I would want somebody else to say to me. And you know, I grew up in the tradition of Dan Rather. I'm not putting myself on that pedestal. But I worked at CBS News as a young correspondent, worked under Dan, worked under people like Bob Schieffer and Scott Pelley and so on. And I just thought, what would they do in this situation? And I tried my damnedest to emulate that. I thought, let's just go out with a bang and deliver a line that would make it very clear what I thought of this whole situation.
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A
Giving into the lies is so simple. And in a normal time, it's not even a remarkable thing to say to a news organization. Right. But in terms of how that's aged and what's happened over at cbs, I mean, how do you, how do you see this moment for the media?
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B
It's stunning to me what's happened over at cbs. And you know, as Scott Pelley famously said recently, you know, they're trying to murder 60 Minutes.
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A
You know, another crazy thing to say, like, who, who could have even, like, I worked in Republican administrations where, I mean, actually, John McCain loved 60 Minutes, but there was an extraordinary body of reporting that was really tough on the people I worked for. And I can't imagine anyone wanting to sort of destroy the Fourth Estate. Like, it's such a novel approach that Trump has. What's on the other side if we get to the other side for things that have been destroyed in the name occurring favor for Donald Trump?
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B
Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, you know, as I've been saying on my show, when 60 Minutes is in trouble, we're all in trouble. Or if only we could have a 60 Minute story on 60 Minutes right now, that would be great. But we don't have a 60 Minutes right now. We have Barry Weiss, you know, Ellison version of 60 Minutes, which sucks. And nobody wants that. Nobody wants puff pieces on Donald Trump. Nobody wants the anchor of the CBS Evening News to say, Marco Rubio, we salute you. You know, nobody wants that. It's, it's a clown show. It's not the news. And my concern is, is that that's going to be translated over to CNN and that Barry Weiss is going to murder cnn. And you know, for folks who are like, oh, Jim, you're hyperventilating. Gosh, you're going too far. You know, it started, it kind of started with me. And then everybody thought, oh, well, it's just one off. You know, maybe Jim's a bad guy, you know, maybe can't get along with people. Maybe that's why he's out of the way. And then there were like eight other anchors and hosts and so got thrown overboard who were on Trump's list. And then Trump tweeted out a list of the people he wanted to get rid of. And so, you know, I go back to what people like Ruth Ben Ghiat have been warning, which is this is what happens with authoritarian governments. They immediately go after the press. I think this time around, Donald Trump wanted to make damn sure that he got the people out of the way who got in his way the first time around or perceived that way his perceived political enemies. And this is a project, just like Project 2025. This is a project of Donald Trump, Stephen Miller, you know, the people behind the scenes who surround him, who, who want an authoritarian like government in this country. And you can't have the Press getting in the way of that.
- [09:37]
A
What do you say to people who ask the very rational question, and I know you covered this, so. So I think it's a perfect. He cannot install a blue colored liner into the reflecting pool, but he can successfully topple two of these sort of iconic American news organizations. Why do you think it was so easy to get people like Larry Ellison to buy into this authoritarian project, but he can't do the, it would seem, sort of easier logistical pieces of governance?
- [10:09]
B
Wow, that is such a big question. I mean, am I allowed to curse on your show?
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A
Yes. Oh, yes.
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B
This isn't.
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A
Sure we don't know each other well enough. So that's why I've been, I haven't been a potty mouth yet.
- [10:20]
B
But yeah, I was holding back earlier, but I was. A lot of these bosses are chicken. A lot of these television executives are chicken. And not all of them. You've got a great one over at Ms. Now. She's the best. And she came from cnn, CNN tradition under Jeff Zucker. And when Jeff Zucker had my back, he really had my back as a journalist covering Donald Trump, that is essential. And he knew that he had the backing for the most part of the parent companies. And I don't think that that' right now in a lot of, of these corporate media outlets and the public can sniff this stuff out, people are smart
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A
enough to understand the viewers totally.
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B
The viewers can totally understand what's happening. When ABC pays that, you know, what's basically a bribe and CBS pays what's basically a bribe, you know, people can figure that out. They're, they're just like, you guys are so chicken shit. And so I think that's a big component in all of this. But in terms of why these big companies, people like Larry Ellison want to do this, I think there's an ideological investment in this and that there are people in this country who would just rather not have a democratic republic and not have checks and balances and have a unitary executive who is all powerful and let the chips fall where they may because that design, that architecture allows them to gobble up as much money as possible in a lifetime. And I just, the question I always have for those folks is what kind of world are you leaving to your kids and your grandkids? They're going to invest, they're going to inherit all of this money, but then the country will be in shambles around them. How does that work?
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A
It doesn't work and they don't want that. If the person, they don't like, they don't want that for President Obama or President Biden or President Bush. Right. They only want it for Trump. What is it that is so intoxic? Is it the limitless? Is it the gluttony? Is it that wealth isn't just doing well and profits? It's that the troughs are open for riches that have never. I mean, what is it?
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B
I think they see us as being in the middle of a second Gilded Age, and they are trying to as mat. They're trying to amass fortunes the likes of which we have not seen in multiple generations in this country. And it's probably going to usher in a reformist era in this country. This is all going to come back and bite them in the ass. I suspect the voters, as I was saying earlier, you know, the media, they're such lagging indicators of what's happening in this country right now. And the people are way ahead of these weenies who run these companies and, you know, like these tech bros who show up at the, the UFC fight and all this, it's just, it's nauseating, it's grotesque, and you guys look like fools, but I just don't think they see what's coming. And I think what's coming is a major reformist era. You know, just the other day we said celebrating Teddy Roosevelt. Well, you know, Teddy Roosevelt had something to say about these monster trusts in this country, you know, and I think that there's a similar president's gonna come along and break them up and I think the people are gonna applaud and that president's gonna be twice, three times as popular as Donald Trump ever dreamed of being.
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A
Yeah, I wonder from covering him the first time, how you evaluate sort of the apples to apples Trump's presidency at this exact point in the first term, he was having to throttle way back. He was under investigation by Robert Mueller. He had fired Jim Comey this time he has this person that I read the Haberman Swan book, you know, seems to print out not positive articles but positive posts for him, keeping him so deluded from reality. How do you evaluate the two terms side by side?
- [13:58]
B
Yeah, I mean, I definitely think there's a difference between the two terms. And it's in part because he was so new to this. I mean, I was there on election night in 2016 when he won, and they were all dumbfounded and they couldn't believe that they won. And I remember going up to Mike Pence after he was still standing on the stage at the end of the election night party. And I was like, what are you going to do next? He had no idea what they were going to do next.
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A
There was no plan. Right?
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B
There was no plan. That's why I always think it's so hilarious when Trump's like, they rigged the 2016 election, dude. Nobody thought you were going to win, including yourselves. I remember Reince Priebus told me, it's going to be a miracle if we win. He told me that.
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A
Chris Christie told me the same thing. Yeah, yeah. And that there was no victory speech, that there was a concession speech, but there was no victory speech. Yeah, yeah.
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B
And. And. But at that time, because he was so new to this, he needed the establishment to sort of help him get going.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And so you had the RNC crowd around him. You had eventually had John Kelly coming in, you had James Mattis, you had H.R. mcMaster, you had serious people around him. And he eventually hated all of that because they told him no.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, had John Kelly saying things like, no, you don't want to be like Hitler with Hitler's generals. You know, remember that whole thing like. And I. But I think when Trump left office in disgrace, and I was with him on Air Force One when we dropped him off in West Palm beach that day, he left office in such disgrace that I think that he spent four years licking his wounds and plotting his revenge. And he and Stephen Miller and this Project 2025 crowd, Russ Vogt and so on, they decided when they came back in and I. And I reported this in, like, the paperback version of my book, had he won in 2020, it was going to be Trumpism on steroids. That they. They knew that they were going to be. The guardrails are going to be off. Nobody was going to stand in their way. The Supreme Court was not going to get in their way. And what happened between 2020 and 2024 is that they had time to prepare and they had time to get their. Their lists of their enemies and who they wanted around him. It was like all of Steve Bannon's wildest dreams were going to come true. And so when he got reelected, I don't think people understood what was coming. And they didn't use their ears and they didn't use their eyes. So when he came out there on the campaign trail and said things like, they're poisoning the blood of this country. I am your revenge and retribution, the American people did not absorb that information in a serious way. Why I used to call it the ostrich election. Why I think people did not want to Take, I don't think they wanted to take it seriously enough that he was this kind of threat to democracy. People memory hold it. They tried to cope. I've talked about this with crowds a number of times. People have coping mechanisms with Donald Trump. They don't want to deal with the reality of who he is and what kind of threat he is to this country. And so they sort of put blinders on or stick their heads in the sand. Not saying everybody does this, but a lot of people do this. And the economy was doing just badly enough and inflation was just bad enough. It was like the perfect storm of all of these things lined up that got him back in there. And I, you know, people, it's, you know, Trump acts as though this was this huge landslide victory in 2024. It really, I mean, it was actually a lot closer than, than people think. But I do think that to some extent people just, just deluded themselves into thinking that it wasn't going to be that bad. And it was a terrible national mistake. And now we are on the dark side of the moon and the question becomes, can we get out of this on the other side? We're going to have midterm elections in the fall. We don't know whether it's going to pan out okay and whether he's going to honor the results or is he going to turn it into such a big 52 car pile up that it takes months to sort out after January. We don't know any of those things. I'm very worried about what is going on in his brain these days. He is desperately trying to avoid any sense of accountability these days.
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A
I think that's right. But then why does he act so self destructive?
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B
I think then we get into the issue of the question of the cognitive decline. We get into the question of his age. I mean, I was told by people close to him when he lost the 2020 election that he had lost it, that he had snapped, that he had changed as a person. And we're not dealing with Dr. Jekyll anymore in the second term. And so it was bad enough in the first term. I mean, they were separating migrant families at the border. They were calling the press the enemy of the people. It was, it was bad. But this is, this is far worse. What we're dealing with right now, murdering American citizens on the streets of Minneapolis, openly talking about meddling in our elections. He's holding up legislation in order to get the Save America act, which is basically the Rig America Act. And you know, he is doing anti democratic things that an authoritarian strongman would try to do in the United States of America, and folks just don't want to deal with it. And so my sense is, is that this is going to be a collective project on the part of all of us. The bare minimum people have to do is just try to outlast this. Can't be defeated anymore. You can't feel down in the dumps. I call it Trump Depression Syndrome. You're not allowed to do that anymore. You have to at least tell yourself, I can outlast this. And then above all of that, you have to be engaged and fight for this democracy in the way that you can.
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A
We'll pause right here when we come much more of my conversation with independent journalist and former CNN chief White House correspondent and anchor Jim Acosta. Stay right here.
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B
Awkward time to ask this, but hey, did you download the trail map?
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A
Yeah, no, I don't need to.
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B
I I don't understand. You're trusting your signal out here?
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A
I'm trusting T Mobile. They have the best network and if we end up in bumtots nowhere, well, we've got T Satellite for backup. Whoa.
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B
I don't trust my carrier that much.
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A
We'll just use your phone as a flashlight.
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B
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A
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the Sierra Miller collection right now at your DSW store or dsw.com. Let me play the devil's advocate here. I mean, I think that people are doing that. I think the American people are largely doing that.
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B
That's true.
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A
I'll tell you a story that I haven't told. I had a baby and when I was out, I read on tyranny and I came back and I pitched a series called American Autocracy. It could happen here. And I think people thought I was, I don't know, Trump derangement syndrome. Right. Whenever you try to tell an inconvenient truth about Trump. But I ultimately had a ton of support at Ms. For the series. We did it. We had people like Ruth on. We had people like Tim on. There was some discomfort. We were still together with NBC with some of the journalists appearing in segments on the show. And we didn't ask the journalists to weigh in on authoritarianism. We simply asked the journalists to tell us what was happening at Trump rallies. Like, what were they talking about? And they were talking about things like how great Putin really was and why would we want Ukraine to win. Just flagrant disregard for democratic alliances and democracies. The turn toward authoritarianism is terrible for capitalism. I mean, this is like the idea that all of the businesses have their head in the sand is to me the greatest disgrace. And the Most undercovered story. What explains the complacency of businesses and institutions? Like, why is Paul Weiss now working for Donald Trump's Commerce Department at the direction of Boris Epstein?
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B
Yeah, I've been saying it's a gangster's paradise these days, Nicole. I mean, I think that. I think that's what's happening right now. And the fish rots from the head, and this is all rotting from the top. And Trump is setting a culture in this country where big business sees a tremendous opportunity to just. It's like I've been describing it, comparing it to a supermarket game show where the shopper's just sweeping as many goods, goodies into the shopping cart as they can in under a minute. And, and I think business, I think
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A
of it as, like, smash and grab, right? They're like, breaking the windows at a jewelry store and, like, grabbing everything.
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B
Yeah, Yep, it totally is. And I think that, you know, company A is doing it, and then company B will look at company A and say, well, they're doing it, you know, and the shareholders at Company B are saying, well, why aren't we doing it? We need to do it, too. Or in the executives at Company B will say, we need to do this. So I think that it's a cultural thing that has taken hold in this country where a lot of people have decided, not everybody. A lot of people have decided, I guess we got to do this, too. And I worry that there's going to be a price to all of this, that this is going to end badly. When Donald Trump rakes in over $2 billion in crypto and sketchy stock trades and all of this stuff that dwarfs anything he was making at Mar A Lago and his golf courses. And then you look at what Steve Ratner has been putting out, these graphs where it shows, like, Trump makes 2 billion, but the investors lose 2 billion. It's like the same exact amount of money. And you just hope, pray, that they're the good people of America look at this stuff and say, whoa, now I get it. I don't like this. This is wrong. And I think some of that is starting to sink in. I think the Epstein files were now, I think a year almost to the day from when they tried to sweep it under the rug with the DOJ memo that penetrated, people understood that, that that was a broken promise. The Iran war, people understood that, that that was a broken promise. It's no wonder why his poll numbers are where they're in the toilet, because he has completely sold out his own base and the Crypto thing, I think, is another example of that. I think people totally get. I don't know about you, but when I was at barbecues and parties and stuff around the fourth, people were talking about that. They were like, wow, how in the heck did he make all of that money? And of course, you know, it's because I just go out on a limb and say this. He's kind of a crook.
- [26:12]
A
Yeah.
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B
So maybe that's why.
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A
Totally. I mean, he's a felon. I mean, the crypto thing is amazing too, because you see the press sort of looking over their shoulder like, this is bad. Right. And they're kind of looking for safety in numbers at covering. Like it is a fucking scam. Yes. Cover it. You know, you could sort of see a little more, you know, courage. The New York Times did some great stuff, great coverage of the crypto scam. And you need all those resources on these stories. Where the grift is, is intricate. It gets at this thing where, like where Trump applies himself and he's applied himself to the grift this time. He can pull off some audacious things.
- [26:48]
B
Yeah. He's competent at being a con man,
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A
but confident at stealing. Yeah.
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B
Just about nothing else.
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A
Yeah. Why do you think there isn't anyone around him that's sort of holding up the bare minimum to not embarrass him on the competence and governance side?
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B
Yeah. And by the way, when you fly over D.C. there's still almost like a hole in the ground where the East Wing of the White House used to be.
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A
It's so sad.
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B
Our eyes glaze over and you used to work there. Our eyes glaze over on this kind of stuff. You know, he destroyed part of the White House and got away with it. He did it unilaterally and got away with it, and nobody's doing anything about it. I mean, my sense of it is, is that there has to be the prospect of accountability that is coming for Donald Trump. And people will say, well, what about the Supreme Court? And what about. They would never get to a filibuster proof majority. I think when with this conversation these days about where's Mitch McConnell? I kind of think that the Democrats need to find their inner Mitch, you know what I mean, and be a little bit more ruthless like Mitch McConnell. And, you know, what would Mitch McConnell do if a Democratic president had knocked over part of the White House?
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A
He would hold up every confirmation. Like nobody would be confirmed. There would be, like nothing would happen.
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B
And nothing would happen. And so I just think that you Know, maybe the Democrats need to go on a two, two or three day filibuster asking where Mitch McConnell is. Maybe Democrats need to be talking about term limits for the Supreme Court. And, you know, the Supreme Court justices there, you know, they put the black robes on and, you know, very serious, and we're above politics and all of that baloney. If the wind starts shifting in the direction of people want more accountability, maybe that might influence their decisions a little bit. Yeah, if, if people knew that there and I, you know, why don't we have greater control over what they do over at the Supreme Court? I think a lot of people are asking that kind of question, you know, how is it that Clarence Thomas was able to, you know, get all these goodies from Harlan Crow? It's just, I thought they were supposed to be above all that, but it turns out they could be just as sleazy as all of the other politicians in Washington. And so I really see at the end of all this, an era of accountability and reform there has to be in this country, or we're so totally screwed.
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A
Yeah. In your darkest thoughts, do you think that that's where we end up, or do you think it's a jump ball?
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B
Now? See, you're, you're asking me to make predictions. And when I was standing in that ballroom at the Hilton Midtown when Donald Trump won in 20, I said, that's it. I'm done with predictions. After Access Hollywood, the prediction game.
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A
Me too. Me too. I was like, I will never predict the outcome of anything. I'm so boring on election nights.
- [29:22]
B
I know, I know. But I, you know, I do think that either two things are going to happen. The people are going to lead a revolution in this country that is really going to take our breath away. I remember covering Barack Obama in 2008, and some of my old colleagues at CNN saying, oh, Obama, yeah, it's kind of a flash in the pan, but this is Hillary Clinton's nomination. She's going to this thing. And I would go to these auditoriums and these gymnasiums, and I would say, I don't know, Barack Obama. I think there's something to this Barack Obama guy. I think that he might be able to pull this off. And the American people still have, I think, the capacity to surprise us. And that is why, you know, you talk about, like, when I said, don't give in to the lies, I also said, hold on to the truth and to hope. You have to have hope. You cannot. That is not dispensable. And I know it sounds a Little corny and things like your grandfather would say. And I'm, I guess a Gen Xer, which is almost like a boomer. But doggone it, I am going to say that to the younger millennials and gen zers that you cannot give up on your fellow American. We can't give up on all of this or else we are screwed. And we're going to get screwed by what? This is all going to end with a failed game show host and casino owner. That's how this.
- [30:32]
A
Stealing everything and just. And knocking everything down. Yeah.
- [30:34]
B
Could it end in a better way with a more formidable person than Donald Trump? I mean, for the life of me, please.
- [30:42]
A
Yeah. He's not a very impressive villain. The whole thing was too comical face Mel and the hair spun on. But I'm sure people come up to you all the time and ask you what they should be doing. What is your like to do list for defeating autocracy that you give people?
- [30:58]
B
I mean, I think it has to be voting. I think people have to make it their jobs to vote. I think people need to formulate a game plan to vote this fall. I believe the best turnout we've ever had in this country when it comes to a midterm is. Is 50%. It's right around 50%. That's terrible.
- [31:16]
A
That is just seeing that sounded high to me. Ye. Right.
- [31:20]
B
But I think that was 2018. And I remember, I cover. I was, I remember when he got his ass kicked in the 28 midterm, the caravan.
- [31:27]
A
I remember you. That was the fight, right?
- [31:29]
B
That was when I lost my press pass. Yeah.
- [31:31]
A
Okay, tell me that story.
- [31:33]
B
So it was like the day after the midterms, he had gotten his ass kicked. And I had people in, you know, the speaker's office telling me we knew this was going to happen. People don't like this immigration stuff. And it killed us in a lot of swing districts and we lost the majority because of this. And so I wanted to ask him about the caravan because he and Fox News were saying these were ridiculous. We're under attack. There's an invasion in this country. The lie was so stupid that I, I just had. I thought this is what I'm going to ask him about. And he did not like that. And then I also threw and tried to throw in a second question on the Russian investigation and he really didn't like that. I may ask the question. Are you worried? That's enough. That's enough. President. That's enough to ask one of the other folks. That's enough. Pardon Me ma'. Am. Mr. President, that's enough. Mr. President, I had one other, if I may ask, on, on the Russia investigation. Are you concerned that, that you may have. I'm not concerned about anything with investigation because it's a hoax. That's enough. Put down the mic. Mr. President, are you worried about indictments coming down in this investigation? I'll tell you what, CNN should be ashamed of itself having you working for them. And then several hours later, I leave the White House grounds, go to get dinner. You remember how this works, Nicole? You try to, you know, eat something really fast. You run out the gate, and you have to throw 11 more live shots. Yeah, but anyway, I left the White House gate to go get food, and I'm coming back. I look at my phone and it's a thing from Sarah Huckabee Sanders, and it's about me. Except it wasn't just to me. It was to the entire world saying that my press pass had been suspended. So I'm walking back in with my food, I go to the Secret Service booth and they say, can you give us your press pass? And I'm like, oh, God, what do I do now? So I pulled my phone out, I started recording the whole thing because I thought if I don't do this, they'll tell me that, you know, I said something nasty to the Secret Service and I handed it over. And we had to fight to get the, the damn press pass back and take them to court and sue them and everything. But again, at that time, cnn, Jeff Zucker, they had my back. And it was a Trump appointed judge gave us back the press pass. But it was, you know, a sneak preview of coming attractions. You know, this was the beginning of Trump saying, h, maybe we can monkey around with, you know, how we can control the press corps. And now you have things like the Associated Press being kicked off of Air Force One. You have the White House deciding who's in the press pool, who sits where in the briefing room. It's totally nuts. And I don't know why the networks and the major newspapers ever tolerated that. They should have said to the White House, either you put the Associated Press back or we're not coming over here to cover your. Like, that's. That should have been the way it would have been done in my book. But, you know, we are in a situation right now just going back to that moment where I think, you know, it taught Donald Trump a lesson that he can get away with. You know, he didn't get away with it then, but it put him On a path to, let's see how we could bully the press and get them under our thumb.
- [34:22]
A
When you take a look at what's public facing. Right. That whole incident and the way they treated you with the cameras rolling, the press release about taking away your past, Trump telling Leslie Stahl, I call you the enemy of the people because I need people to not believe you when the stories are bad about me. I stopped carrying Sarah Huckabee Sanders briefings, just refused to carry him because having worked there, it like, actually hurt me to watch her lying from. I'm not saying that every press secretary in every White House doesn't, you know, try to get the best coverage they can or put the best possible light on the things that their boss is doing, but what they were doing. And this lie about the caravan seems quaint to. They're eating the dogs, they're eating the cats. Like, why. Why do you think the lies about immigration were so effective politically for him this time?
- [35:11]
B
I think that, you know, we were coming out of COVID People were, you know, I, I don't know if we got meaner and nastier because we were sort of walled off from one another for a couple of years or just became less sensitive to one another. You know, there were all the fights on the planes, and there was a lot of just like, pent up, up aggression and hostility because everybody had been locked into there. I, I rather enjoyed it at times. I mean, I watched Tiger King and drank a bottle of red wine, like, all the time.
- [35:41]
A
We were angry. Glasses and sweatpants.
- [35:43]
B
It's so true.
- [35:44]
A
Yeah.
- [35:45]
B
But there was something about that period of, of just everybody being walled off from one another that I think it, it made us maybe not appreciate what makes this country so special. And I, you know, my dad's a Cuban refugee. I talk about this all the time. My mom's side, there's an immigrant story there. Their folks came through Ellis island, like, a lot know. We sort of gave up on this idea or, or forgot about this idea that, you know, and Ronald Reagan talked about this, that you could come from any part of the world, come to America and be an American. Like, that's a great thing about this country. How the hell did that get warped into this Stephen Miller craziness that we're dealing with today? But we allowed it to happen. And I think that there is something intoxicating about fascism and scapegoating and the racism that he peddles. And Americans may have diluted themselves into thinking that we're immune from all that. Because of Saving Private Ryan and Rocky Balboa and the American experience of our, you know, the 50 years of our lives. But we're not. America is not immune to that kind of stuff. And I do think there is a segment of American society that is susceptible to that message. And, you know, it's that old line about fascism. It's, you know, one third of society preys on another third of society while the other third watches. And I think to some extent, you know, and Trump wraps it up in this candy wrapper of jokes and, you know, making fun of people and towel snapping and locker room antics that makes it fun and exciting for people at his rallies. I mean, I remember, I covered. I've covered hundreds of Trump rallies and the way people would gobble up Build the Wall and that anti immigrant, nativist, racist, white supremacist rhetoric. You know, it dawned on me during my coverage of all of those rallies that this had seeped in, that people had. Had taken this into their. Into their bone marrow and into their DNA and made it part of themselves. And it is going to take a hell of a long time for us to get out of this. I mean, he. He warned the country of what he was going to do. He said, they are poisoning this country. And he talked about they were waving signs that said mass deportations now at the convention. And so this was not like, oh, they snuck it past everybody, or it was buried in Project 2025 and we missed it. They made signs at the RNC. It is a collective, lived experience that we're all going to have to go through. And then when you and I are a little grayer and longer in the tooth, we'll say, I remember when, you know, we had to survive all of this. But I think that's what we're going to have to. Have to do, Nicole. We're going to have to survive this and overcome this, or else our kids and our grandkids are doomed. They cannot live in a country where fascist, white nationalist authoritarianism takes over. It will lead to mass suffering in this country. And so Donald Trump, as buffoonish as he is, that message, that value system, that ideology, it has to be defeated.
- [39:01]
A
My conversation with Jim Acosta continues right after the break. Stick around. We'll be right back. At dsw. We ask the important questions, like, what shoes are you going to wear? Whether you're prepping for wedding season, festival season, or just planning the ultimate vacay, the right shoes can make or break an rsvp. So own the moment. You've got Big plans. And we've got just the shoes at the perfect price of course. Get ready to get ready with designer Shoe Warehouse. Head to your DSW store or dsw.com today and let us surprise you.
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- [41:27]
B
Yeah, and it goes back to the question he asked earlier. You know, does he squeak it out here? This is perhaps our biggest test since 911 whether this, this democracy gets through these next couple of years. And we're coming up on the 25th anniversary of 9 11. And I know you and I both have searing memories of that. We could probably go on and on until stories all day long, but that country where we all came together is gone. It's not, it does not exist anymore. That doesn't mean it can't come back, but it means that if it does come back, it means that a great number of Americans will have to admit that they were wrong about Donald Trump and I don't know how we get there without some sort of terrible catastrophe happening that forces everybody to snap out of it. And that is a scary prospect to me. I think that the Democrats have been a little sloppy lately in terms of selecting candidates. They just have, and they're gonna have to.
- [42:29]
A
Why do you think that's the case? Why? Why do you think? Yeah, I mean, I feel like a political refugee. Right. Like, I'm. I'm. I feel blessed to be welcomed to the Pro Democracy coalition, but I feel sometimes like I'm rooting for them more than they're rooting for themselves.
- [42:45]
B
Yeah, no, I hear you. Democracy is our home, Nicole. That's okay. I mean, I've never been registered with the political party. I've always been an independent. I've been a journalist. But, I mean, I think I see things clearly, and I think that I see this on my podcast all the time, and you probably see it, too, on Ms. Now, the viewers, the listeners, they're. They are fired up in a way that I don't think a lot of people appreciate. I don't think that people in the Democratic establishment appreciate. And so they thought, well, you know, I think we could just eek this out, 52% to 48%, and we'll have a solid majority. We might not have a Senate super majority, but we'll have enough to, you know, have hearings and yada, yada, yada. And I just. That is not enough for people. It's not where the.
- [43:30]
A
Yeah, yeah. That's not where voters are.
- [43:32]
B
Yeah, yeah. And how do we solve this problem that a person who incited an insurrection and interrupted the peaceful transfer of power somehow got back into the White House and yet should still have some accountability, even though the Supreme Court says he has immunity? How do we solve that up?
- [43:52]
A
It's like a riddle wrapped in, you know, an autocratic threat wrapped in like, hand me another bottle of wine. Yeah.
- [43:58]
B
It's like a Rubik's Cube that keeps changing.
- [44:00]
A
Yeah. That makes people go, ah, I'm out.
- [44:02]
B
You know, and then they say, ah, I'm out.
- [44:04]
A
Yeah.
- [44:05]
B
And that's why I go back to the Obama story. I go, you know, I. I just think that. And maybe I'm too Pollyannish about this, but I think that the public is going to lead the way. And I think part of the reason why you ended up with Graham Platners, and you might have some unfortunate candidates here and there. And by the way, some of this has been painted with so broader brush that I sort of feel like the media is falling into the same right wing Republican trap that gets laid at election time, which is, you know, the Democrats don't have their shit together. They're communists and they support all these shitty candidates and it's like, like 5% of the total.
- [44:40]
A
The other thing is they. So when Democrats lose, they actually take the notes, right? Like I have ones that are Republicans, so I can see, you know, Republicans lose and they nominate Donald Trump. Democrats lose, they take all those. So they've now become the bigger party, right. And Democrats are still looking over their shoulder like, did we do this right? Like, like what is the timidity about? As just a journalist and covering the two, two parties in their DNA, I
- [45:05]
B
think it, there's a timidity there. But I think that, you know, fortune favors the bold. I think Mamdani, you know, he has proven that you can be a very competent mayor of New York despite having some very progressive views. And by the way, they're not communist views. You know, he has some progressive views that might stray into the area of democratic socialism that we might see in places like Scandinavia. But oh, by the way, a lot of those countries have like, you know, you see those happiness scores, you know, where people rank how happy they are in places like Finland and Norway and so. And they're like, it's like 95%. They're so happy. They're so fucking happy in those countries because they don't, they don't, they don't take their people and throw them off a bridge. I mean, we have enough money to start a war choice that nobody wanted in Iran and to turn Washington D.C. into Apocalypse now on July 4th with all these fucking fireworks. But we don't have enough money for national healthcare in this country.
- [45:57]
A
Yeah.
- [45:57]
B
Jesus Christ, give me a break. Break. I don't understand this. And I think that the Democrats who don't go out there and talk about national health care and abolishing ICE and reforming the Supreme Court, I like, oh, well, good luck, you know.
- [46:10]
A
Yeah. People don't want incrementalism. Yeah.
- [46:13]
B
They don't want the half loaf. They don't want Obamacare without the public option.
- [46:17]
A
Yeah.
- [46:18]
B
But it's conundrum.
- [46:19]
A
But don't you think the independents to me seem like they're still. If they can be pulled into a Trump coalition that is a threat to democracy. Like it feels like I, I understand this. Right. Because nothing less than the future of democracy is on the line.
- [46:36]
B
No, it's so true. And Bill Clinton used to have a good line that the Democrats only get hired when there's something to clean up. I think it's something along those lines, and that may be just enough to put them over the top this next time around. You know, midterms are a tricky thing. You know, who would have thought that Mame was going to be a shit show? Maybe Michigan ends up being harder to win than people thought. You might end up not putting the best candidate out there who can win in the fall. But then you have Mary Peltola in Alaska. She could win that race. You never know. I mean, so.
- [47:07]
A
And Talarico.
- [47:09]
B
And Talarico in Texas. I think Alex Vindman has a shot into Florida, probably so. So these things are going to surprise us. But I think that incrementalism is not terribly exciting or romantic. So it gets back to this whole campaigning and poetry and governing and pros. There's going to be some pretty good poetry out there.
- [47:29]
A
Exactly. They need, like, they need Bruce Springsteen lyrics. What do you. What's the best thing about being an independent journalist?
- [47:36]
B
Well, one of the things I do like about independent media is when I'm done with my show, I'm not worried about what my bosses think anymore. I'm not worried. Is my boss going to call or text or email or. Or some middle manager is going to say, gosh, you know, I don't know about that. You know, I never had to worry about any of that bullshit until Donald Trump came along. I could be tough as hell on a Republican or Democrat, and I didn't have to worry about that because I had pretty good bosses up until that point. And then Donald Trump comes along and thank God, you know, Jeff Zucker was in my corner during all of that. But all of a sudden it was a. Your tone. Should we have said that? Gosh, what about this? Do we have enough pro Republican, pro Trump people on the panel? I don't have to worry about that anymore. And it feels so good. And I just love having longer conversations. And, like, this is amazing.
- [48:31]
A
No, it's how people communicate. Like, I was talking to someone about this. Like, people. Oh. So I had the privilege of interviewing Jack Smith last week, and that was great. I said, you know, he said, thanks for coming to D.C. and I said, well, thanks for agreeing to an hour. I got off the phone really quickly because I was afraid you guys would retrade the length, you know, that you agreed to an hour. And he said to me, no, I knew it was an hour. And like, that's how you reach people. It was so, so interesting that from him Came this sort of observation of what I think what you and I would both readily acknowledge are the limitations of broadcast tv. That in like a short block with a bunch of breaks, it's really hard, it's really hard to have the depth that people are looking for if you want to try to persuade them to think about something differently.
- [49:16]
B
It's so true. And I just had Hunter Biden on my podcast and we talked two hours.
- [49:22]
A
Oh, my God, I have to listen. I'm so behind. How was that?
- [49:26]
B
It was fantastic. And if anybody, nobody deserves to have their say right now, it's Hunter Biden. I mean, all the rallies where they said, where's Hunter? Where Trump's, Where's Hunter? And accused him and of Joe Biden of being the Biden crime family. What a crock of shit compared to what we're looking at now. I mean, first of all, that was false. But second of all, what a crock of shit compared to like all of the ways that they're taking to this country to the cleaners right now. And Hunter, you know, he had lots to say about Trump being sleepy, you know, because of the whole sleepy Joe thing. He had a lot to say on many subjects. And it was, I thought, you know what, how refreshing. And I will tell you, Nicole, he doesn't want to be a politician, but you sit there and you listen to him. I know Beau Biden was supposed to be the heir apparent. I was like, he sounds like he could run. And crazier things have happened in this country.
- [50:12]
A
Well, people love a redemption story. And, you know, I always thought that the problem with the coverage of Hunter Biden is it assumed that everyone didn't know every family in this country is touched by addiction at some level.
- [50:25]
B
Yes.
- [50:25]
A
And so the idea that people couldn't handle a grown up conversation about the disease of addiction was always wrong. And everyone is touched by it, unfortunately. And I, and I interviewed Joe Biden and I regretted not sort of asking him about that. You know, why not have a grown up conversation with the country about the disease of addiction?
- [50:42]
B
Yeah, no, it's so true. And all of our families have been touched by this. And he talks about it as a crisis of access to health care. And it's so true, you know, the way we treat people with addiction in this country, as if, you know, you just need to be thrown away, that you're, you're a plague on society or something. When really people just need help, they need treatment, they need options so they don't end up in the, in the, in the slammer. So I think, yeah, I think it's a very useful conversation to have, but it is, there is something to be said for, you know, having conversation with Hunter about, like, Joe Biden having one gaffe at a debate, you know, 2024. Trump basically says the same crap every day. I think today was the Islamic Republic of Jap. If Joe Biden had said that, can you imagine?
- [51:26]
A
I wonder how you evaluate Trump's stamina. I mean, he falls asleep, and I think only a White House reporter can understand that. He's not falling asleep like, at other people's venues or events. These are White House events announced by the White House. The press is escorted in by the White House press office, and he's falling asleep. What does that say to you?
- [51:46]
B
You know, when he's in the Oval Office and there are people standing around him? I mean, I can understand, you know, you're, you're at a movie or a basketball game or something, and you're just like, you know, watching TV on the couch and you sort of doze off. He's doing this with, like, 12 people standing over his shoulder talking, like, I don't know, how do you fall asleep in a situation like that? I think that there's obviously something going on with his health that the public isn't being told about. It's not the same Donald Trump I covered during the first term. I mean, you could say a lot about the guy, but, but, you know, he had some stamina back in the days he wasn't falling asleep. Yeah, and I think he fell asleep for a bit during the fireworks show when they were, when they turned it into, like, you know, the explosion of the Death Star on the National Mall. And how do you sleep through that? I have no idea. The loudest fucking thing in the world.
- [52:35]
A
And, yeah, his energy level, which used to sort of be a thing he obviously felt virile about, is gone. And, and I think it's interesting that, that the much ballyhooed manosphere is, is
- [52:48]
B
very, that, yeah, no, he's been very flaccid these days.
- [52:52]
A
Extremely.
- [52:53]
B
And I think that, you know, we're gonna have to grapple with this as a country because, you know, I, I, I just don't know, like, if you're 80 years old being President, United States, that this does not make any sense anymore now that we've seen, like, two different versions of this back, back to back. And oh, by the way, you know, as this goes on, Trump seems crazy. It's like it's not only sleeperishness you know, he, he sounds crazy a lot.
- [53:19]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [53:20]
B
He says crazy things and we have
- [53:21]
A
to say it out loud with our last minute. I want to tell you something that I told you and Don on my show. I have an incredible amount of respect for the people I'm on against in a time slot, but that used to sort of be all you think about, right? I'm sure you did the same thing. And I would ask, what did Jake lead with? Or what did Neil used to be my neighbor at 4 used to be Jake and Neil. And I still have a lot of respect for everybody that does this, regardless of their sort of of approach to it. But I am so influenced by, inspired by, and sort of pushed by your journalism and by Dawn's and by Heather Cox Richardson. And I just, I don't know where the feedback loops are, but I want you to know that you inspire me to be more honest, to be more brave, and to tell the truth, even when it's uncomfortable. So thank you for the important work you're doing there.
- [54:09]
B
That's very kind. And I'm a huge fan of yours and watch your show all the time. And to me, it's appointment viewing for people who care about this democracy. And you're shining a bright light on how our elections matter, how honesty in our leadership in this country matters. And so thank you for what you do.
- [54:27]
A
Wow, that's very nice of you to say.
- [54:28]
B
I'm very humbled that you had me on.
- [54:30]
A
No, no, no. It's such a treat. Thank you so much for your time for doing this.
- [54:34]
B
Thank you, Nicole. Really appreciate it.
- [54:40]
A
Thank you so much for listening to the Best People. All episodes of the podcast are also available on YouTube. Visit Ms. Now. TheBestPeople to watch the Best People is produced by Vicky Vergelina and Ayan Chatterjee. Our associate producer is Miko Venuela Yodar with additional production support from Query Robinson. Our audio engineers are Bob Mallory and Hazik bin Ahmad Farad. Katie Lau is our Senior Manager of Audio production. Pat Berkley is the senior Executive Producer of Deadline White House. Brad Gold is the Executive producer of Content strategy. Aisha Turner is the executive Producer of audio, and Madeline Herringer is Senior VP in charge of audio, digital and long form. Search for the Best People wherever you get your podcasts and be sure to follow the series. Traditional home security only alerts you after a break in and that's too late. Simplisafe is changing that.
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