← The Best People with Nicolle Wallace
The Best People with Nicolle Wallace
Jimmy Jam on Prince, Janet, and a Nation Finding Its Rhythm
00:48:09
Music legend Jimmy Jam shares anecdotes and wisdom from his decades-long career as a producer and songwriter.
Loading summary
Transcript83 lines
- [00:00]
Dr. Horton
Now is your time to get into a new Dr. Horton home by taking advantage of its national red tag sales event going on right now through July 20th. Stop by any of its participating communities and find select red tag homes at Incredible Pricing. So whether you're buying your first home or looking for an upgrade, you don't want to miss the red tag sales event going on right now. Discover the Dr. Horton Difference at drhorton.com Dr. Horton America's Builder and equal housing opportunity builder.
- [00:32]
Jimmy Jam
If you could hear love, what would it sound like? Son, can we talk about your drinking?
- [00:47]
Son
Yeah, Dad, I think we should.
- [00:51]
Dad
Helping those closest to you think about their excessive drinking.
- [00:55]
Son
Maybe that's what love sounds like.
- [00:57]
Jimmy Jam
More@rethinkthedrink.com an OHA initiative.
- [01:07]
Nicole Wallace
Your point about memory is that you can ask someone what they were doing 20 years ago and they may be able to piece it together, but you play a song from 20 years ago and they remember what rooms they were standing in. It gives me chills. Say more.
- [01:19]
Jimmy Jam
Yeah, you remember the. You remember everything. You remember the smells in the air, the temperature. It brings everything back to life. And that kind of means that music is the thing that opens that back up, that unlocks that, the things that you have forgotten about.
- [01:35]
Nicole Wallace
Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Best People with Nicole Wallace. When I first had the kerdle of an idea to make a podcast with the best people in my life, Jimmy Jam was on every list of possible guests. Jimmy Jam has made music with Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson. Jimmy Jam has been inducted into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. And Jimmy Jam, the human being is a font of wisdom and perspective and ways to live a creative and meaningful life. This is the Best People with Nicole Wallace. And this is Jimmy Jam. Jimmy Jam.
- [02:13]
Terry Lewis
Thank you for being here.
- [02:14]
Nicole Wallace
I got to meet you because I woke up one morning and called Brad Paisley and said, I want to do we are the World for Ukraine. And he said, well, you have to call David produced the Grammys. And so I called David Wilde. It was like an ungodly hour in the West Coast. And I said, I want to do we are the World for Ukraine. And he said, well, it could only happen if you had somebody like Jimmy Jam involved. And I said, well, how would I ever get to know Jimmy Jam? He said, well, I'll ask him if he'll talk to you. And so I remember where I was standing when we had our first call. And I knew about you. I knew Prince, I knew Janet Jackson, but I did more prep than I do for my own show. To get to talk to you. And our first conversation always stuck with me. We talked about the power of music to change the world. And I know you really believe that.
- [03:07]
Jimmy Jam
I totally do. I just think it's the. I've always felt that. But the way that it kind of articulated to me was during the pandemic, everybody was on zoom screens all the time. And the thing that I always noticed on the zoom screens was people's differences, right? You noticed, you know, their lighting or their. Their virtual screen in the background, their. Their male, female, black, white, you know, whether they spoke, you know, English or a different language. And it. And it alerted you to all the differences. But as soon as someone played some music, you saw everybody's heads do this at the same time. And so what it made me realize was that music, if the zoom screen was the quilt, if you will, of differences, music was the thread of our commonality. And so as soon as you got people on that same page and everybody doing this at the same time listening to music, it didn't matter what language you spoke. It didn't matter if you were black, white, straight, gay, Democrat, Republican. All of that went out the window for that moment. And I've always said that. I always felt like music is the divine art because the way it talks to us, the way it allows us to time travel virtually back to that moment we met our first love or graduated high school or whatever that moment is in your life, there's always a song that's associated with it.
- [04:31]
Nicole Wallace
Well, you make that point in your acceptance speech at the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. And I went to the Rock and Roll hall of Fame after I knew you, I met you that year, and I went and took my picture in front of your section with Terry, and I was so proud. You know, when am I ever gonna know anyone else in the rock and roll? Hal, you were inducted by Janet and Janet Jackson, and you tell this story about the divine art. And your point about memory is that you can ask someone what they were doing 20 years ago, and they may be able to piece it together, but you play a song from 20 years ago and they remember what rooms they were standing in. It gives me chills. Say more.
- [05:11]
Jimmy Jam
Yeah, you remember everything. You remember the smells in the air, the temperature. It brings everything back to life. And that kind of means that we always talk about that we lose memory and that kind of thing. And, you know, maybe some of us do. The thing is, is that music is the thing that opens that back up, that unlocks that, the things that you have forgotten about. Music is the thing that does that. But I just think music is that thing that really. It just transforms its time travel at its finest. It takes you back to wherever. If somebody says a year or a date and you play a song from that date, it takes you right back there. And there's something that's very divine about that. And as I've been telling people, I feel like music is a thing that keeps us sane down here. And I think that because of that, we kind of are angels in a way. And I think I told everybody in the creative community that I know that during these times of divisiveness and all of that, we all need to grow our wings a little bit bigger and flap them a little bit harder and be intentional in the work that we do, whether it's songs, whether it's lyrics of songs, really in any kind of art, I think be intentional. That it should be. It should help heal, it should help bring together. Because we have so many forces trying to divide us. I think music is that ultimate. I don't like to use the word weapon, but it's that ultimate tool to me, I guess, to bring people together.
- [06:38]
Nicole Wallace
Is that fraught right now in this political moment?
- [06:43]
Jimmy Jam
I just think, really with anything, but certainly politics right now. I think there's a lot of headlines, but not a lot of nuance. I always say, you know, there's. People always talk about. To make a long story short, and that's kind of the. Where we're at right now. But I actually am working on a podcast called Short Story Long, where you take the headline, but you actually expand upon it, or in this case, the music story, and expand upon it. So I think that we. What we lose sometimes is the nuance of things. And when I'm driving, which is, you know, kind of, you know, people always have the instant reaction. Somebody cuts in front of you, and the first thing you think is, oh, that's stupid. You know, blah, blah, blah, you know, whatever. That's the first thought you have. But then on second thought, I go, wow, I hope everything's okay. Because they seem like they're in a really big hurry. You know, I think if sometimes we cannot react to every first thing we hear and maybe take just a moment just to pause on it and try to determine why is someone saying that, you know, not rather than just going, oh, they're stupid. Okay. No, but what you really want to say is you maybe disagree with that point of view, but let's find out why they have that point of view, and then at least we keep a discussion open.
- [08:02]
Nicole Wallace
Is that reflexive for you? Is that your nature, or is that like a practice of positivity? Because everybody. Everybody to a person describes you as, you know, from sort of the Zen category of adjectives to, you know, radical positivity. Do you think that is sort of your nature, or is that a practice you've cultivated and, like, how can I get some?
- [08:35]
Jimmy Jam
Well, I think it goes to my parents, to my upbringing. My mom was the golden rule, you know, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, or as it's said today, treat people how you want to be treated. It's as simple as that. On my dad's side of the family, you know, I was estranged from my dad for 50 years. We recently have reunited. So I really believe in the power of forgiveness and in putting rather than harboring on why things happened in. In a negative way. We have a chance to move forward in a positive way. So let's put our energy into that. And also, he was, you know, obviously my musical talent. So I think I. I think it's really the way I'm raised. I'm so fortunate in my life to have, you know, first of all, a partner, a lifetime partner in Terry Lewis. But also I get to do. I get to wake up every day and do what I love doing, which is making music. And when I wake up every day, I just thank God for another chance. I feel like I just get another chance to do something, whether it's write a song, whether it's, you know, maybe pay somebody a compliment, maybe help them in some way, if I can. I just feel like I'm appreciative of the chances, and that's kind of my. My outlook on things.
- [09:53]
Nicole Wallace
What part of sort of being the light and choosing positivity can someone who's sort of struggling with what you talked about before, the divisiveness or the political moment or the things that are ugly that are happening all around us, latch onto.
- [10:08]
Jimmy Jam
Well, I think I go back to the metaphor of being in traffic. I think your first reaction to things is always going to be whatever that is. And a lot of times it's going to be anger. It's going to be, I'm pissed off. I'm trying to get somewhere. I'm pissed off, whatever. I think if you can get past the pissed off part, and by no means, it doesn't mean I'm. I don't get mad and I don't feel disappointment. Somebody asked me recently, what would I tell my 8 year old self. And my answer was I would say don't put energy into things you can't control, but put all your energy into things you can control.
- [10:53]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah.
- [10:53]
Jimmy Jam
And I don't feel like I'm a great advice giver because I'm trying to figure it out every day myself. But I do think that I try to always land on the positive side of things because I feel like I have a lot less days ahead of me than I have behind me. And so I want to be conservative in my energy. By no means. It doesn't mean I don't get mad, it doesn't mean that I don't have bad days or that because all of that definitely happens. But I do try to see the bright side of things and I try to just be compassionate and kind. I don't think that energy to me is never wasted. It really is. Even if you don't feel like you're receiving it back, a lot of times that's okay because your intention is to do the right thing. And I think there's a lot to be said for good intentions.
- [11:45]
Nicole Wallace
You went back to when you were 8, your 11 year old self ended up in 7th grade piano class with Prince. Yeah, let's start there. Tell me about that.
- [11:56]
Jimmy Jam
So, yeah, I met Prince in junior high school, I guess it's now called middle school, but junior high school back in the day, I think I was in seventh grade, he might have been in eighth grade at that point. And we took a piano class at the high school which was called Central High School. And it was interesting because the teacher would give us, we both knew how to play, we could play piano by ear, but we didn't really know how to read music. So the teacher would give us, you know, Mary had a Little Lamb or some really simple song, right? And then she'd say, learn this song. And of course then she'd leave. And we had, you know, headphones and these keyboards and we'd just start jamming. And Prince's dad was, was a jazz musician. My dad was a, you know, a blues musician. And so we both could play and we would just get in there and just kind of wail away and stuff. And then the teacher would come back and we go d d and she'd go, yeah, that's great. It was kind of funny. But the thing that really amazed me, about Prince, besides the fact that he could really play the piano really well, was at the end of that semester they were going to do a like a musical. And they asked who wants to Come in and be, you know, the band. And we were all raised our hands and they said, you know, Prince, what do you want to play? And he said, guitar. And I looked at Prince like, guitar, I thought you were a keyboard player. So then I said, jimmy, what do you want to play? And I said, drums. And Prince looked at me like, drums thought you were a keyboard player. But I was a drummer because my first professional little gig was with my dad playing drums in my dad's band when I was, you know, 12 years old or whatever. So I knew how to play the drums pretty well. Anyway, we get in, very first rehearsal, we go to Prince walks in with his guitar, he plugs it in, he plays the solo from a song called Make Me Smile by Chicago. And Terry Cath was the guitar player in Chicago. He's a world class guitar player. Prince plays this thing note for note. Exactly, just. And I was just blown away. So anyway, we rehearsed some of the songs. It's cool. I take a break to go to the bathroom. I hear somebody on the drums. I'm figuring it's the, the drum teacher or the, the music teacher. And I come out and it's Prince on the drums, just killing the drums. He hands me the drumsticks back and I'm like, dude, I can't do anything with these, you know, so at that age, and he was, I guess, 12 years old or whatever, I just, I knew I'd never seen anything like that. And of course to one day, as you know, fate would have it, joining the time which was his. I mean, we were already a band, but he was the one that gave us the break to make a record, to tour with him for a couple of years and to really learn. I think the thing I learned the most from Prince was work ethic. Because he would rehearse our band for six hours. He'd rehearse the Revolution for six hours. Then he'd go to the studio all night, make a song, and he'd walk in the next day with a cassette. Cause this is the cassette days. And he'd walk in with a cassette and it would be, you know, lady Cab Driver or some great song from one of his albums. And it was just kind of like, man, how does this dude do that? You know? So it was. It was amazing to meet him initially just as a, you know, a junior high schooler. But you could feel, at least I could just feel the greatness of him. Even at that point, there was nobody like him. And to me, there hasn't been anybody in my life since him like that.
- [15:25]
Nicole Wallace
I have just chills. I mean, I listen to Prince when I run every day. Prince is the soundtrack of my youth. And my daughter, I have a one and a half year old who plays the movie Sing and Let's Go Crazy is in Sing, too. Yes, it is, right?
- [15:40]
Jimmy Jam
Yes.
- [15:41]
Nicole Wallace
How do you feel about the regeneration of music for generations that weren't even alive when Prince was alive?
- [15:50]
Jimmy Jam
Oh, I love it. So when sampling. Listen, by the way, when sampling first happened, meaning that you could sample a song and then make a new song of it. I remember back a long time ago when people would ask us about it, they'd say, what do you think about sampling? And I'm sure they thought we were going to say, well, it's cheating and it's not a talent in that, or whatever. And our answer was, we love it. And they were like, you do? And we were like, yeah. Because what it does is it allows musical generations to connect. There's a great documentary on Sly in the Family Stone that's out that Questlove directed. And we talk about how we did the song Rhythm Nation with Janet, which was. We sampled Sly in the Family Stone. Thank you. And made a new song out of it, which was Rhythm Nation. So to me, what that does is it brings, you know, the people that know Rhythm Nation. It goes to a whole new generation, but then it allows people to go back and go, wait, what song was that from? Oh, Slide the Family Stone. And it allows the discovery process of that to happen. It's interesting right now that, for instance, Janet's song Someone to Call My Lover is. You know, it's a. It's all over. It's a top 10 TikTok. It was number one. Shazam, I guess, or Apple Music or something. But that song, the origin of that song was a sample of America, Ventura highway and. And America was one of my favorite bands. And I always said, if you ever want to know what my favorite music was, just listen to whatever we sample, because that's our favorite music. And I actually texted the other day with them, and I sent him a copy of the charts. And I said, hey, we're number one on, you know, whatever the chart it was at that point in time. And they were, like, blown away by that. And I said, but that, to me, is the greatness of music. That's what should happen. So I love in this generation that young folks are young creators, are using music of our past that we've done to connect people to things that they're doing. Now, because to me, it's the ultimate connectivity. So I love it.
- [17:59]
Nicole Wallace
David Wild reminded me of a story I think you told on his podcast about how you came to work with Janet Jackson and how you and Terry wanted to spend some time with her. First. It was sort of a juncture in her career and a vulnerable. I mean, she describes it as a vulnerable moment for her in her career and in her life. And she said, when don't we start writing? And Terry said, the process has started. We're listening. Just tell me Janet chapter.
- [18:29]
Jimmy Jam
So the Janet chapter was a good example of something that was kind of our philosophy as producers, which was to give everybody their own sound, use different instruments, use different techniques and all of that, to give everybody their own identities. And so with Janet, one of the things we insisted upon was that she come to Minneapolis to record, which was not in her comfort zone necessarily. And then the things we even surrounded her with, like, she. There was no bodyguards, there was no limousines or anything like that. She had to basically drive herself. So back in that day, there's no gps. So it was a Thomas guide. And it was like, here's. You need to get from the hotel to the studio. Here's, you know, here's Blockbuster Video. Here's the sushi place or whatever. You need to figure out how to get to the places you're going. But, yeah, we sat around and just had conversations. And in the conversation, she talked a lot about going out on her own and how important that was and so on and so forth and leaving home. And so when she said to us, as you ask, you know, she said, when are we going to get started? And we said, oh, we're started. And we showed her the opening lines of Control. When I was 17, I did what people told me, did what my father said, and let my mother mold me. Yeah, that's what it was. So that was the opening lines to Control. Well, when she saw that, she said, oh, my God. She said, that's what we're going to write about, whatever we talk about. And we said, yeah. And then she said, oh, I want to talk about this. It was the light bulb going on. And I think it's important to kind of give that to all artists. But Janet, it was probably, you know, because we were doing the whole album, we had a chance to really shape what that was. And she was an amazing muse because to me, it's always. There's artists I really love that I don't have a desire to work with them simply because I don't Feel like we know how to enhance what it is that they do. So I'm fine just being a fan of those people. And then there's other people that we're fans of that we go, oh, but we think we could really bring something cool to this. And we felt that way about Janet because we felt like she was. And when she was a little girl and she was on, like, the variety show, when she was on Sonny and Cher and when she was on these little shows and the Vegas shows with her brothers, she had so much attitude. And that was the thing we weren't feeling in the records she was doing the first couple of albums was just that attitude. And we thought, if we can do some music that's aggressive, that's funky, that brings back that attitude. And so when we did, you know, something like Nasty, for instance, you know, and even the way she sang it, she started off, you know, in a high voice, you know, sitting in the movie show. We were like, no, no, no, you gotta sit in the movie. It's gotta be like that. And she said, oh, I get it, I get it. And she sang it like that. And to me, it just kind of transformed the song. And her voice became almost like a rhythmic element of the songs. And the way she sang and her breaths that she took, all of those things, and she was just like the greatest mute actually continues to be. We have some. Some stuff in the can, as we used to call it back in the day, with her that's. That's really cool because she continues to be such a muse for us creatively. You know, she inspires us so much. So, yeah, Janet's. She's very special.
- [21:47]
Nicole Wallace
We're all working on something right now. You and Janet.
- [21:50]
Jimmy Jam
Yeah, we're cooking. We're cooking. We're cooking some stuff up. Absolutely.
- [21:54]
Nicole Wallace
Is it a new album?
- [21:55]
Jimmy Jam
We don't know. We're just, you know, nowadays, because album. The concept of album is so.
- [22:00]
Nicole Wallace
Right.
- [22:01]
Jimmy Jam
Weird now, or. I can't say weird, but the. But a full body of work. I don't really know whether we're crafting that as much as we're just crafting ideas and songs. Been doing a lot of that recently where. Because we have songs that we've done in the. The past that didn't necessarily go where we thought they were going to go, if that makes sense. And all of a sudden somebody else will hear it and go, oh, wait, I know the perfect thing for that. Or, here's the perfect timing for this to come out. So, you know, it's. God's, timing.
- [22:27]
Nicole Wallace
At this point, I feel like you've just made some huge music muse.
- [22:33]
Terry Lewis
We're going to take a quick pause right here. When we're back, we'll have much more with my friend, music legend Jimmy Jam. Stick around.
- [22:49]
Multicare
Our state has changed a lot in the last 140 years. We know because Multicare has been here guided by a single making our communities healthier. That comes from making courageous decisions, partnering with local communities to grow programs and services, and expanding healthcare access to those who need it most. Together, we're building a healthier future. Learn more@mycare.org.
- [23:21]
Dad
Hershey's Milk Chocolate with Whole Almonds makes for a wholly amazing, wholly delicious experience that's, well holy Hershey's. Everyone should get to experience the satisfying surprise of a whole almond tucked inside creamy Hershey's Chocolate. So don't wait your whole life to try Hershey's Milk Chocolate with Whole Almonds. And if you've already had it, then chances are you're already a lifelong fan of this confectionary delight. Find Hershey's Milk Chocolate with Whole Almonds wherever candy is sold.
- [23:51]
Verizon
Gas, groceries, eating out. It all adds up fast. With the Verizon Visa card, you get rewarded every time you spend. Get 4% in rewards on gas, dining and at grocery stores, and you can put those rewards toward your Verizon bill or on new tech like a smartwatch and earbuds. Apply today at Verizon. Application required. Subject to credit approval. Must be a Verizon mobile account owner or manager or FIOS account owner. See verizon.com Verizon Visa card for terms and restrictions. The Verizon Visa Signature card is issued by Synchrony bank pursuant to a license from Visa USA Inc.
- [24:27]
Nicole Wallace
We're just talking about Prince and Janet Jackson because of your relationships with Prince and Janet Jackson. But I don't know that there are two more famous people in this country than Prince and Janet Jackson. What are each of them like? What was Prince like? What is Janet Jackson like?
- [24:44]
Jimmy Jam
Well, I think they're they're both super creative. I mean, I think in the sense of Prince was always he never was afraid to take chances on things. And if you think about the music that he did, it really crossed all lines. He was very much I mentioned Sly in the Family Stone earlier. He was very much a student of that approach to music where if you think about having, you know, a female guitar player, a female keyboard player, mixed races, that was very much the makeup of Sly and the Family Stone. And so that was something that wasn't, you know, lost on him at all. So I think he was very unique in that. The other thing I give Prince a lot of credit for was he was a person that saw the best in everybody. He did that with me. There was. I remember we were working on 777-9311, and he, you know, I wasn't singing my. He said, add a part and play another keyboard part and do the choreography. And, like, he just had all these things, and I didn't think I could do it. And of course, you know, he worked us, worked us, worked us. The second day we tried to do the song. I remember the second day we came back to it. And not only was I able to play with both hands, sing my part, do the choreography, but I was able to, you know, tip my hat and pull my hanky out and do kind of all the kind of theatrical things we did on stage. And it made me realize that he saw me better than I saw myself. And there's a gift to doing that. You know, it's like coaches that coach players, you know, or to really get that best, you know, performance out of them or put them in the best place to succeed. I think that's what Prince's, you know, for me, that was his true genius, if you will, besides the fact that he could play every instrument and do all these things. I think Janet, like I said, is very much amused. Janet is very much a very trusting person with us, which is the reason that for a long time she didn't do a lot of interviews. And I always would say to people, she doesn't have to, because everything that's going through in her life, it's on her albums. What she was going through in the Control era was her striking out on her own Rhythm Nation was very much the social injustice that was happening. And her commentary on that, the Janet album was very much a love album. So you really got, you know, the fact that she was able to open herself up like that with people, I think was very important. And the one other artist that I would put in there that we worked with was Janet's brother, Michael. And if you think about the musical education that Terry and I got from working with Prince, from working with Janet, from working with Michael, obviously, having Michael and Janet together on Scream, which is their only duet, but to have a chance to write and produce that, but also have the mentorship of someone like Quincy Jones or the life advice of someone like Clarence Avant, the Black Godfather, we've been like sponges. We've Been able to really soak up just so much knowledge and so much inspiration from people. And we appreciate that, and we want to give back and tell those stories and allow people to, you know, have some of that. Have some of that inspiration that we have and what we feel.
- [28:00]
Nicole Wallace
How does the Michael, Janet collaboration with you and Terry happen?
- [28:08]
Jimmy Jam
It was a call for Michael, actually. Michael said he wanted to do a duet with Janet. And we kind of said, okay, maybe, you know, and then we called Janet immediately. We said, hey, do you know about this? You know? And she said, yeah, yeah. My brother said he was going to call. I said, okay. I said, are you cool with it? And she said, yes. She said, the way I'm looking at it is it's his record. I'm just a guest on it. And I said, okay, cool. So she came up to Minneapolis. We basically did like six or seven tracks, I remember. And she was just there for inspiration, you know, she said, what do you need me for? We said, just come up here and just. We just need inspiration. And I remember there was two tracks in particular that she liked. One of them was the one that ended up becoming Scream, which she was. She said, that's the one my brother's gonna like. She knew that. But then the other track was a track that ended up for her becoming Runaway, which was a big single for her. And she wanted him to not like that song because she said, I want that song for myself. So I hope he doesn't like that song. But she pretty much called it. And I will say the most impactful studio session we ever had was probably with Michael. I mean, it was just. It was unbelievable because he walked in so mild mannered, like, just, you know, just quiet. And, you know, he puts his headphones on. He says, okay, well, let's. Let's run through the song. And we launch into the song, and he immediately just starts dancing around and twirling. And it was like a performance in the studio. And, you know, he comes in, I'm tired of injustice, I'm tired of scheming. He just like all this energy. And when it got done, she sang the whole song start to finish. When the song was done, I remember Janet came between Terry and I, we were sitting at the board, and she was supposed to do her vocal. We were in New York, actually working, and she was supposed to do her vocal next. And she just said, I'll do my vocal in Minneapolis. She wanted no part, no part of following that. What Michael just did, was it competitive.
- [30:01]
Nicole Wallace
Or Janet, or was it definitely Michael?
- [30:04]
Jimmy Jam
Was Michael was very competitive. Michael, when he's done singing, he comes in and he says, okay, Janet, you're gonna do your part now. And Janet goes, ah, Michael, I think my vocal, my voice is a little, you know. And so she doesn't want to do it right. So anyway, we send Michael Janet's vocal that he does in Minneapolis. And Michael goes, wow, she sounds really good. We said, yeah, good. Glad you like it. He said, she sounds really good. Where'd she record? And we said, in Minneapolis. He said, I'm coming to Minneapolis. So he came to Minneapolis. We only used maybe 10% of the vocal he did up there, but he just. He wanted that experience. He said, whatever Janet's getting, I want to make sure I have that same experience. So he was very competitive. And it was interesting. Even on the set of Screams, the music video, which was most amazing music video of all time to me. Janet had her camp of people. Michael had his camp of people. And I was basically Switzerland, like I was. I could go to either camp. I would sit in Janet's trailer for a while, and then they'd knock on the door and go, michael wants you in his trailer. I said, okay. Then I go over to Michael's trailer, and then they knock on the door, and they go, janet wants you in her trailer. It was hilarious. But somehow it all. It all got done. And their love of each other, I mean, yeah, there was definitely competitiveness, but their love of each other was really the thing. She really felt like, you know, anything for my brother. Because after we did the one song, the Scream, which was all we were supposed to do, he called about the other tracks we did. He said, what about these other tracks? Can we do some of these other tracks? And we called Janet and we said, he wants some of these other tracks. Is that okay? And she said, yes, as long as it's not Runaway. As long as it's not my track, the other ones are fine.
- [31:48]
Nicole Wallace
What is the magic of Minneapolis for them and for you and Terry?
- [31:53]
Jimmy Jam
Minneapolis was a great environment to grow up in. First of all, it was incredibly. I would say, just a great creative environment. I grew up. My mom very much made sure that every weekend I was either at a Minnesota Orchestra event, a Guthrie Theater event, you know, watching a play, children's theater event. So I really got immersed into kind of the creative scene up there. And it was also a very polite society. They call it Minnesota Nice, where people were. People were very polite to you. It's interesting, looking back on it now, that I think it seemed to Me to be a place where racism really didn't exist, but it just was. It was a polite racism. Every year there was a parade, a big parade they did downtown Minneapolis called the Aquitenial. And we, I will say, in the black community, felt like we didn't want to necessarily be downtown at that point. And there was a guy named Spike Moss, who. I should say there is a guy. He's still around, but he was an activist. But he would throw big concerts on that same night. And so the whole north side, which was the more predominantly black side of town, they'd do these big outdoor festivals and they'd bring in bands, and our local bands would play. My band would play. Terry and me were in different bands at the time we were competing. So it'd be like the battle of the bands. And basically what it did was it gave black people a place to go, a place to hear music and do that without being somewhere where we really weren't wanted to be. So it was a very subtle, very polite racism that was happening. And we were aware of it, but we just dealt with it. But I will say that, for me.
- [33:53]
Nicole Wallace
Was, how did you deal with it?
- [33:55]
Jimmy Jam
We. Well, first of all, by being aware of it. We knew, for instance, when we had our very first studio, I remember we were across the street from. I think it was like a funeral home or something. And I remember because there was always nice cars. We were there till three or four in the morning. A lot of times the police or the funeral home or whoever in the neighborhood would send the police over to see, why are all these cars out in front of this building? And we knew a few of the police officers and stuff. And I remember the first couple of times they came by and they said, what are you guys doing? And we said, we run a recording studio. You know, like, do you guys want to come in and see what we're doing? Or whatever. And we actually became, you know, friends with the police. But there was a necessary step that if we were white, we wouldn't have had to go through that. So I think a lot of it was just the awareness of the reality of the situation. You know, what do they say? Play the cards you're dealt? Those were the cards we were dealt because there's an assumption that people are going to be afraid of you because of your skin color. And so don't give them an excuse to, you know, be they're afraid or whatever. So I think being aware of that was how we dealt with it. Once again, it was a great place to grow up. Because the difference was, I think if we lived in the south, there'd be signs telling us, you know, we don't want you here, or, you know, that kind of thing, or someone would just say straight to your face, get out of here. You're not wanted here. Like I say in Minneapolis, it was a very polite, you know, but you could tell, you can read the room, you know, right? And you can tell, well, this is a place we probably shouldn't be. And, you know, so we're not going to be there. But that's, you know, going back to my childhood and all that. I remember that I. It also helped me that my mom came from one of the first. There was only probably three black families. He came from Fergus Falls, Minnesota. There was probably only like three black families in that town. And then they moved to, you know, down to Minneapolis. And so I think learning from my mom just how to deal with the things that she had to deal with and my dad, in the same way of being able, because he was a musician, could play clubs, certain clubs, but wasn't necessarily allowed to go in the front door of the club. It was kind of come through the kitchen to get to your, you know, you just kind of learn. It's just kind of inherent in what you learn and how you do it. So I think that's probably, you know, that was almost part of life, I guess, if that makes sense.
- [36:36]
Terry Lewis
We'll be right back with more of my conversation with Rock and roll hall of Fame or Jimmy Jam. Stay right here.
- [36:52]
Endurance Warranty
Building a business may feel like a big jump, but On Deck small business loans can help keep you afloat. With lines of credit up to $100,000 and term loans up to $250,000, on deck lets you choose the loan that's right for your business. As a top rated online small business lender, Ondeck's team of loan advisors can help you find the right business loan to fit your needs. Visit ondeck.com for more information. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtibank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.
- [37:23]
Son
Coverage varies by plan. View contracts and exclusions@EnduranceWarranty.com this announcement is to all United States vehicle owners who own a 2003 or newer vehicle with a manufacturer's warranty about to expire or no warranty coverage. With a struggling economy and the cost of living on the rise, Endurance is offering an affordable low cost vehicle coverage plan to the general public. You could be one of millions of drivers who may qualify to have your vehicle protected under this coverage and have all future covered auto repairs paid directly to the repair shop for you. You pick your plan, your deductible and the repair shop. Roadside service, towing and rental coverage is included. United States vehicle owners who own a 2003 or newer vehicle with a manufacturer's warranty about to exp protect your vehicle now and save your wallet from costly vehicle repairs. For your free 5 minute quote and to see if you qualify, visit endurancewarranty.com Endurancewarranty.com.
- [38:24]
DSW
I'm not switching my team to some fancy work platform that somehow knows exactly how we work, and its AI features are literally saving us hours every day. We're big fans, and just like that, teams all around the world are falling for Monday.com with intuitive design, seamless AI capabilities, and custom workflows, it's the work platform your team will instantly click with. Head to Monday.com, the first work platform you'll love to use.
- [39:01]
Nicole Wallace
I know in the in the hall of Fame speech, you thank Perdom as the Black Godfather. Talk about all of the roles you have in music and in which music cares and all of those sort of roles that are, they're not just the making of music and the art and the craft of it, but they're also sort of, you're an industry leader on all those fronts. Talk about that and why that matters.
- [39:28]
Jimmy Jam
Well, Clarence Avon, the Black Godfather, I'm glad you know, his name is always mentioned anywhere that has to do with Terry and myself, because there would really be no Terry and Myself without him. He was the one. Well, first of all, he gave us really one of our first opportunities with a group called the SOS Band to actually record, get in a studio and kind of set the tone of what our careers became. But beyond that, I remember one time we went into his office and he said, what are you guys going to be doing in seven years? And we said, I'm going to be making hit records. And he said, no, no, no, no. He said, I mean, what are you going to, what else are you going to do? Like, who's going to get involved in politics? Who's going to get on the boards of companies? Who's going to sign new writers and producers? Like, who's going to be the next Barry Gordy or the next Clarence Avon or the next Dick Griffey of Solar Records or whatever? And he planted those seeds in us. And I remember probably when I turned 40, I remember, my wife asked me, she said, what do you see yourself doing? Like, what do you want to do? Because, you know, music is a. It's a short career most of the time. And I said, I said, I just want to be like a music ambassador in some way. And she says, what do you mean? And I said, so to me, like, a music ambassador is like, Quincy Jones is a music ambassador to me. Like, he's someone that speaks the language of music, does it worldwide, and everybody gets it. And right after I said that, I remember, maybe a week later, I got a call from Phil Ramon, rest in peace, Phil, the great producer. And he said, hey, you should get involved with the Grammys. I want to run for. I'm going to run for chairman. You should run for vice chairman, so on and so forth. And I remember I called Clarence and I said, clarence, I said, they asked me to be on the board of the Grammys or the Recording Academy. And I won't say it in the language he said it, but I'll paraphrase and just say, you better get yourself in that room because that's a room they don't allow us in. And I thought, okay. So I got in the room. About four years later, I decided to run for chairman of the Recording Academy. And nobody ran against me. And so, of course, I won unanimously. And I said in my acceptance speech to the board, I said, I don't know whether this means you guys all really like me or it means nobody wanted this job. I'm not sure. But that was the 50th anniversary of the Grammys, and we performed on the show that year with Rihanna, actually, which was pretty cool with the time and all that. But the first thing I was able to do was get Clarence a lifetime achievement award from the Grammys. And it just kind of showed the seeds that he planted, which was, what are you going to do with your life? And so that's why the things that you mentioned, the musicares piece, I'm on the board of the Grammy Museum, which is very important. I'm the chairman of the television show. So, you know, I always say when people like the show, you can thank me. If you don't like the show, you can blame me. But I'm interested in all of those things because to me, when you talk about giving back and people always say, you know, you should give back to your community. Well, the music community is my community. So that's where I want to give back. And if I can help, whether it's fire relief. I remember a while Back it was Katrina, making sure that instruments got back in the hands of musicians so that they could go raise money. Because, you know, the first we, as we know, how we met, when you want to raise awareness and you want to raise spirits and you want to raise money. Money, yeah, it's. You put a band together and you do a concert, you know, you do We Are the World, or you do whatever that is. So, to me, I just think it's important to make sure that I continue to invest back into that community with my time, whether it's lobbying on Capitol Hill for issues that have to do with that, which I've done a lot of. I just feel like I'm in such an elevated place because of music, and that's the way I treat it. I treat it like a privilege to be able to do that, to be able to speak to people, to be able to help raise money, help raise awareness. But I get to do it from music and that language. It's just. It's a beautiful thing. Like, I never don't appreciate it, and.
- [43:57]
Nicole Wallace
It'S where people are open. I'm just thinking of the. Our collaboration. I mean, Alicia Keys was one of the first people to say yes. Stevie Wonder seems like he's always there when people want help. Just talk about sort of the generosity and who are the people that always want to help that see music the way you do.
- [44:17]
Jimmy Jam
I'm telling you, I think people. When I reach out to people for things, I usually get a pretty positive response.
- [44:28]
Nicole Wallace
I know.
- [44:28]
Jimmy Jam
And.
- [44:28]
Nicole Wallace
And, well, everyone says yes to Jimmy.
- [44:31]
Jimmy Jam
Well, but you know what I. I call it. Terry and I talk about this all the time, and I. I call it the equity of credibility. It's something that you gain over a long period of time of trying to do the right thing. And so what happens is, I just was talking the other day with Sean Stockman from Boys to Men, and we were talking about how he says, you guys have been with us through thick and thin. Some of our biggest records on Bended Knee and Four Seasons of Loneliness and these number one records. But then when we were in our downtime, you guys just stuck with us. And I just think it's important to do that for people. You have to be there for people. And I think so, like I say, we have the equity of credibility. To me, it's our most valuable asset. So hopefully, if you say our names, if you say Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis, hopefully, people go, okay, cool. Yeah, at least give us the benefit of the doubt rather than to just go, oh, they Suck.
- [45:27]
Nicole Wallace
Whatever, you know, A lot more than that. A lot more than that.
- [45:31]
Jimmy Jam
It's real cool. I also think that. And the other thing I think is that just once again, in God's plan and the bigger plan of things, Terry and I, when people ask about longevity, I say that you have to get through old. And what I mean by this.
- [45:46]
Nicole Wallace
Oh, I love this. Wait, you have to do this whole. The whole setup. Because I feel like I'm entering into this. Jimmy Jam's guide to Old, Old to icon. Give me, like, all the steps.
- [45:57]
Jimmy Jam
Yeah, from old to icon. Okay, I like that. So. So to me, if you think about anything that's old in your life, it's basically something that you've discarded. It could be a watch, it could be an old phone, it could be an old car that's rusted out. It could be any of those types of things, right? And there's a period where it's old. So Terry and I, career wise, probably went through our old period where we were old and what it did us. It gave us an opportunity to go to all our kids recitals and basketball games and all of those types of things. And what happens is you look up, you know, 10 years later, let's say, and you find that watch in a drawer, you find that phone in a drawer, and first thing it does is it gives you a great memory. Like, oh, I remember this. Oh, I remember when I used to have that. And. And then you have somebody that'll say to you, oh, man, I bet you that's worth a lot now. It all of a sudden becomes coveted, it becomes classic or vintage, or that car, you know, you keep that car, it's kind of rusted out or whatever. It's old. But then, you know, 10 years later, it's like, oh, that's vintage. Oh, they don't make those anymore. Oh, that kind of thing. I feel like that's kind of the career path that Terry and I have had, you know, as our phones are ringing off the hook and our songs from back in the day are on TikTok and viral hits and so on and so forth, is that we made it through old, and now we're in a position to tell some great stories and to really leave music in a better place, which is our ultimate goal.
- [47:31]
Nicole Wallace
I'm gonna ask you, just in the spirit of the podcast, if there's a single sort of best piece of music you've been involved in in any way, in helping to make it and helping to perform it and seeing it made and watching it Written what's like that one thing that gives you all the feels every time?
- [47:54]
Jimmy Jam
That's a great way to ask the question, because sometimes people say, what's your favorite song? And I always go, that's impossible to answer. Because there can be different aspects to favorite process. Yeah, but it could be the process of making it. It could be the result of it. If it's a huge song, the way I always put it is if there was a time capsule that said Jam and Lewis and a hundred years later, whether it's aliens coming down or whoever opens it up, what would be the song that would play? And for us, our number one song will be Optimistic by the Sounds of Blackness. That song, for every reason, the making of it, the execution of doing it, the. The tr. The trouble we had in even putting it out because, you know, we had people looking at us like, why are you putting out a gospel song? And, you know, it was crazy. But we ended up winning a Grammy for it. We win number one. It was a huge record. But it really. The way it impacted people's lives was the thing that was the most cool about it and still continues to do that. So I would say Optimistic by the Sounds of Blackness would be that song. If Terry was on this with us, his 1B, I guess, for 1A would be optimistic. 1B would be a song called Open My Heart by Yolanda Adams. And that was a song that. When we did the song, I remember Sylvia Rohn, who was. Who still is the head of chairman of Epic Records right now, but I remember she heard it and she cried when she heard it. She said, it's beautiful. And I remember. But the analytics at the time said that it was summertime and we need to put up an uptempo song. And this was a ballad. And I remember we called Sylvia and we said, but the song made you cry. And she sent it to, at this time, one radio station, I think, and said, just test this out and see what happens. And back in that day, before social media, the phones lit up, and by the morning time, the morning jock said was calling the record company going, wait, what is this record that you played last night that everybody's requesting? And it was Open My Heart, Yolanda Adams ended up being a platinum record for her Grammy winner. The whole thing. So those would be, I'm kind of cheating. But the two Optimistic by the Sounds of Blackness and Open My Heart by Yolanda Adams, I think those songs, if you put Jam and Lewis on those songs, I think it tells you everything you need to know. About us.
- [50:35]
Nicole Wallace
I love that you know that. I think you're the best and above everything else, you're so cool and you're so current and I feel like your magic dust is sprinkled on me just by getting to know you and getting to talk to you. So thank you. Thank you for being my friend. Thank you for having this conversation.
- [50:52]
Jimmy Jam
It's my pleasure. But you know, once again, music was the thing that brought us together for.
- [50:56]
Nicole Wallace
Sure, you know, for sure.
- [50:57]
Jimmy Jam
And so to me, and yeah, that to me is what's so important, you know, is that we have this relationship based on that. And I just think that relationship can happen amongst a lot of people if it's in their lives in the right way. And I'm happy to be a part of that. Thanks for having me.
- [51:18]
Nicole Wallace
Thank you so much for talking to us. I love it and we love you. Thank you. Jimmy Jam. Thank you so much.
- [51:23]
Jimmy Jam
Absolutely.
- [51:28]
Terry Lewis
Thank you so much for listening to the Best People. Be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to get this and other MSNBC podcasts ad free. As a subscriber, you'll also get early access and exclusive bonus content. If you've been enjoying our conversation with the Best People, be sure to rate and review the show. Your reviews will help others discover the Best People. Also, all episodes of the podcast are available on YouTube as well. Visit msnbc.com thebestpeople to watch. The Best People is produced by Vicki Vergelina and senior producer Lisa Ferri with additional support from Delia Hayes.
- [52:13]
Nicole Wallace
Our audio engineer is Mark Yoshizumi and.
- [52:15]
Terry Lewis
Bryson Barnes is the head of audio production. Pat Berkey is the senior executive producer of Deadline White House.
- [52:22]
Nicole Wallace
Brad Gold is the executive producer of content strategy, Aisha Turner is the executive producer of audio, and Madeline Herringer is.
- [52:30]
Terry Lewis
The senior Vice president in charge of.
- [52:32]
Nicole Wallace
Audio, digital and long form.
- [52:34]
Terry Lewis
Search for the best people in the cold Wallace wherever you get your podcast and follow the whole series.
- [52:45]
DSW
I've never felt like this before. It's like you just get me. I feel like my true self with you. Does that sound crazy? And it doesn't hurt that you're gorgeous. Okay, that's it. I'm taking you home with me. I mean, you can't find shoes this good just anywhere. Find a shoe for every you from brands you love like Birkin's stock, Nike, Adidas and more at your DSW store or dsw. Com.