The Best People with Nicolle Wallace

Episode Title: Joan Baez is Calculating How Much She’s Willing to Risk
Date: September 22, 2025
Guest: Joan Baez

Episode Overview

This episode features iconic folk singer, activist, and cultural force Joan Baez in conversation with host Nicolle Wallace. Together they reflect on the current era of political and social upheaval, the challenges and risks of activism, the power and limits of art, and the role of hope and community in dark times. Baez shares personal stories from her decades of activism, offers urgent wisdom for the present, and explores what it means to risk, to create, and to "save some fishes" when the tide seems unchangeable.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rejecting the Word "Unprecedented"

• Baez challenges the overuse of "unprecedented" to describe current political events, arguing that repeated shocks should no longer surprise us:
  • Joan Baez: "That group of people would love to be unprecedented. ... So get used to it and drop the word. We shouldn’t be surprised by it anymore." (02:27)

2. The Polarized Moment & Human Connection

• A deep divide between "two tracks" of American life, with Baez confessing the struggle to remain open in a Quaker tradition:
  • Joan Baez: "There are two tracks, and for whatever it is, they can’t cross over. And I’m guilty of that. I don’t want to hear that rhetoric. ... It’s all very anti-Quaker. I was raised as a Quaker, and you really are supposed to be open and loving to everybody. And I’m having trouble with that right now." (03:34)

3. Heightened Dangers and Risks of Protest

• Baez contrasts her civil rights era arrests with the current "first order of the day for this group is cruelty":
  • Joan Baez: "Right now, since the first order of the day for this group is cruelty. ... That’s what makes it scary in a way that I was not scared back then." (05:19)

4. Comparing Then and Now: 1960s vs. Today

• Baez unequivocally sees today’s climate as worse—more frightening, unpredictable, and disconnected:
  • Joan Baez: "This is worse. I certainly see it as worse. ... If somebody made this weird sci fi movie, this was happening, we couldn’t have dreamed it up." (06:21)
• Baez laments the absence of the "glue" that once bound movements—a sense of collective purpose and musical unity:
  • Joan Baez: "[In the '60s] you had the glue and we don’t have the glue. ... I think it will exist somewhere if we're around that long and it's that vital glue and then we feel as though something's possible, whether it is or not." (07:46–08:45)

5. Leadership, Fear, and Self-censorship

• She points to increasing fear and self-censorship among public figures—including those expected to lead:
  • Joan Baez: "We shouldn’t be too surprised when people we thought were going to speak up for us don’t, because there’s a lot of fear now. ... We may not be able to turn the tide, but we can certainly save some fishes." (09:31–09:58)
• Baez espouses the strategy of "85% denial" to avoid despair:
  • Joan Baez: "Denial is your friend right now. ... And then with the other 10% or 15%, go and do something." (10:00)

6. Hope as a Muscle

• Citing Ann Patchett, Baez and Wallace discuss hope as something to be intentionally built and practiced:
  • Nicole: "You quote the writer Ann Patchett, who I adore, saying that hope is a muscle, I think. Is that right?"
  • Joan Baez: "Yeah. ... I’ve gone through most of my life being a complete pessimist ... but I do this stuff anyway. ... I have to do what I do anyway, and it’s up to me how grim I’m going to feel." (11:03–11:50)

7. Art, Denial, and Joy as Defiance

• Baez shares her focus on finding joy through dance, circus, and performance—describing even denial as a necessary survival tactic:
  • Joan Baez: "The circus represents and is everything the administration hates. ... So, it is a real refuge for me." (14:36–16:05)
• She links community and laughter to resilience:
  • Joan Baez (quoting Mark Twain): "The people have only one really effective weapon, and that is laughter." (20:04)

8. Personal Fear & Responsibility for Family

• Baez admits her personal fear, especially for her child and granddaughter, as authoritarianism rises:
  • Joan Baez: "I’m more scared for my kid and granddaughter. ... At the moment, she’s just effervescent with the possibilities in her life, and there isn’t any point in me trying to argue that away." (21:48)

9. On New Anthems & Artistic Courage

• Reflects on the enduring power and limits of protest songs like "We Shall Overcome." Advocates for "new anthems" to meet the new moment:
  • Joan Baez: "We Shall Overcome is the most beautiful protest song in my mind ... but we need something new because ... [it's] too full of nostalgia and not enough to get people moving." (23:27)
• Recognizes the reluctance of many contemporary musicians to take risks:
  • Joan Baez: "The only risk about Live Aid was to not get asked. ... It’s always a question of how deeply somebody is involved." (24:25)

10. The Role of Business and Societal Complacency

• Baez and Wallace question why businesses and individuals wrongly assume democracy’s survival is someone else’s responsibility; warns against "neutrality":
  • Joan Baez: "If you’re neutral during this time, you can get away, get away with your life doing pretty much what you want to do. Just don’t cross any lines." (25:55)

11. Strategies for Hope and Resilience

• Staying afloat: Baez shares advice from a Turkish friend living under a dictatorship—walk the line, stay "clever" and balanced:
  • Joan Baez: "It remains to be seen if I can be very clever." (27:56)
• Art as sustenance: Music, dancing, and beauty fuel hope and resistance.

12. Aging Boldly & the Freedom of Not Caring

• Baez revels in the freedom afforded by age—now less burdened by others’ expectations:
  • Joan Baez: "[This is] the luxury of this being my age. And I don’t care." (41:32)

13. On Risk and Legacy

• Baez reflects on a lifetime of taking risks, but questions the new calculus as family becomes more central:
  • Joan Baez: "[Through] all my career, I’ve said that social change cannot happen until somebody’s willing to take a risk. And I believe that. And I believe it’s going to get scarier and scarier to take a risk." (42:12)

14. “Saving the Fishes”

• Baez’s closing ethos: Even if we can’t "turn the tide," we can make a world of difference by saving "some fishes"—small acts and efforts matter:
  • Joan Baez: "We may not be able to turn the tide, but we can save the fish. Bunch of them." (43:43)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "It was the worst of times and it was the worst of times. Go join a circus." — Joan Baez (16:59)

  • A refrain that becomes a symbol of survival and creative resistance.

• "Denial is your friend right now." — Joan Baez (09:58)

• "If you’re neutral during this time, you can get away, get away with your life doing pretty much what you want to do. Just don’t cross any lines." — Joan Baez (25:55)

• "The people have only one really effective weapon, and that is laughter." — Mark Twain, cited by Baez (20:04)

• "All my career, I’ve said social change cannot happen until somebody’s willing to take a risk." — Joan Baez (42:12)

• "We may not be able to turn the tide, but we can save some fishes." — Joan Baez (09:58, 43:06)

• "I’m 80 fucking 4 years old. But it's never too late." — Joan Baez on embracing dance and new passions (34:29)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Rejecting “Unprecedented” (02:27)
• On Polarization & Quaker Roots (03:34)
• Comparing the ‘60s to Now (06:21)
• On Lack of Movement ‘Glue’ (07:46–08:45)
• Fear, Self-Censorship, Denial (09:31–10:00)
• Hope as a Muscle (11:03–11:50)
• Circus & Denial as Sanctuary (14:36–16:05)
• On Laughter as Weapon (20:04)
• Personal Fear for Family (21:48)
• Role of Protest Songs Today (23:27)
• Artist Risk & Responsibility (24:25)
• On Societal Complacency (25:55)
• Staying Afloat under Oppression (27:56)
• Art and Defiance—Dancing in Drag Shows (30:21)
• Freedom of Old Age (41:32)
• Reflection on Taking Risks (42:12)
• Why Save the Fishes (43:43)

Conclusion & Takeaways

This wide-ranging, deeply personal interview with Joan Baez explores not just the historical arc of American dissent but the raw demands and possibilities of activism, art, and hope today. Baez is honest about her own fear, the exhaustion of striving for justice, and the challenges of still being “the glue” for a broken moment. But she steadfastly insists that small acts matter—denial, joy, and tenacious kindness are not weakness but survival. In the face of rising threats, she leaves us with a charge: "Save the fishes," dance, and never underestimate the power of the next small act.