The Best People with Nicolle Wallace: “Jon Lovett: This is not Policy Making. This is Vandalism”

Episode Date: August 18, 2025
Guest: Jon Lovett, Crooked Media & Pod Save America
Host: Nicolle Wallace

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode explores the state of American politics in an age of social and political upheaval, focusing on the radicalism of the current Trump administration, the erosion of institutions, the crisis and opportunity facing the Democratic Party, and the role of independent media and activism. Jon Lovett, known for his sharp humor and incisive commentary, discusses the shift from policy-making to what he calls “vandalism,” the challenge of building a new pro-democracy coalition, and the urgent need for authentic, effective political communication.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Crooked Media’s Origins and Vision

[02:37]

• Startup Roots: Pod Save America began post-2016 election, when traditional political analysis felt inadequate. They built a “media company” that was, at first, a blog and a podcast feed.
• Authenticity: Their draw relied on honest conversation, bias acknowledgment, and encouraging listener agency.
• Mission: “What keeps people coming back...they know we’re telling people how we feel...but we’re trying to be honest and help people sort through it...” (Lovett, [03:14])
• Rejecting ‘View from Nowhere’: They sought to provide an engaged, irreverent alternative to the self-seriousness of legacy media.

2. Political Landscape Under Trump (Second Term)

[04:30 & 07:12]

• Acceleration of Radicalism: Trump has become “more himself”; with fewer moderating forces, extreme policies and disregard for institutional norms have accelerated.
• Personnel as Policy: Right-wing “think tank types” are now empowered, using Trump as an “empty vessel” for aggressively ideological goals.
• Vandalism, Not Policy: Lovett likens current policy dismantlement to “vandalism,” targeting institutions not for reform but for destruction’s sake:
  • “This is not policymaking. This is vandalism...They are cavalier and glib about institutions they benefit from...and in wanting to own the libs, they are doing vandalism.” (Lovett, [11:30] & [00:50])

3. The Crisis in the Democratic Party

[12:08 & 12:54]

• Democratic Malaise: Democrats struggle to assert what they truly stand for beyond opposition to Trump.
• Bully Pulpit Lost: Biden’s poor communication (and, implicitly, Kamala’s struggles) left the party without strong public leadership.
• Authenticity Gap: Trump’s supporters feel seen; Democrats lack leaders who generate authentic, emotional connection. Lovett emphasizes that figures like Obama, Sanders, and AOC “make their base feel as though they have no needs” ([15:14]).
• Leadership Formation: The next leader will “emerge from the furnace” of the current crisis, not arrive preordained—“they’ll be made in this moment” ([17:41]).

4. The Power and Limitations of Media

[32:28]

• Mainstream Collapse: Media criticism matters less as legacy infrastructure decays and audiences fragment.
• Independent Ecosystem: Building a broad, 'pro-democracy' media coalition is vital and must be inclusive of voices from center-right to democratic socialists.
  • “We really need to build an alternative...that galvanizes people and makes them feel as though they are the means of reaching others...” (Lovett, [33:59])

5. Entertaining as Well as Informing

[36:42 & 38:45]

• Competing for Attention: The left must produce content that’s not just factually strong but appealing and accessible.
• Critique of ‘Cathedrals of Information’: Lovett warns against making beautiful but empty or inaccessible policy-heavy content: “A lot of people building beautiful, perfect cathedrals of information...and they’re empty inside” ([37:11]).
• Joy & Community: The right is winning on energy and entertainment. The left’s gatherings must be “parties people want to attend” ([39:14]).

6. The Epstein Scandal as Microcosm

[23:41 & 25:34]

• Trust Decay: Lovett asserts that both the crime and the subsequent government/justice system failures have been catastrophic for public trust.
• Perpetuating Conspiracies: Lack of transparency empowers bad-faith actors and breaks trust, sapping political capital in the “squishy middle.”
• Highlight: “Then whatever truth there was about the conspiracy theory beforehand, they fucking make it true...There is now a conspiracy between the Department of Justice and the White House to conceal information about what is in the Epstein evidence. That is absolutely true.” (Lovett, [28:36])

7. The Role of Culture and Vulnerability in Political Communication

• Open Podcasting: Lovett and Wallace discuss the authenticity that comes from podcasting, with less distinction between the personal and political.
• Challenge: “The harder part for me is not like, oh, what parts do you not talk about... It’s more actually like what you say on the microphone and what you say when the microphone is off should be different... because you’re making sure you have something to offer and...not just filling the space between the mattress ads...” (Lovett, [53:27])

8. Dehumanization, Immigration, and the Contest for America’s Soul

[55:59 & 57:20]

• Impact of Leadership: Trump “takes the worst thing about you and makes it more true...That’s what he’s doing right now. He’s making those qualities more true about America. There’s an opposite to that, there’s an alternative.” (Lovett, [57:31])
• Immigration Coverage: Why seeing human consequences of anti-immigrant policies causes opinion shifts, and the necessity of offering an inspiring, pro-immigrant, inclusive vision.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s Second Term:
  “This is not policymaking. This is vandalism. And that’s part of what makes it so upsetting... They are doing vandalism.”
  —Jon Lovett ([00:50], [11:30])

• On Building Trust:
  “We’re trying to be honest and help people sort through it and to really deliver on a value proposition that, like, we will figure out... what are the ways you can actually have an impact?”
  —Jon Lovett ([03:14])

• On Media Fragmentation:
  “You can’t really define yourself against the mainstream media because...what’s left of the mainstream media, everybody outside of it, we are together in this last...effort to take on...someone in opposition to all of us.”
  —Jon Lovett ([05:13])

• On the 2028 Democratic Standard Bearer:
  “I think it’s like I’m embracing the, you know, I’m trying a new thing, which is called, you know, humility. But the... person to be the standard bearer in 2028, they’re not going to show up on a white horse in 2027... it’s the person who’s going to be doing it now and having an impact and is going to be out there fighting every day... Somebody that feels it in their bones...”
  —Jon Lovett ([17:41])

• On the Role of Entertainment:
  “We have to provide an alternative to that that brings more people in. And like the right wants a left that’s embittered and divided... we have to be welcoming and entertaining and joyful... we will not build a party that can win unless we are having parties people would want to attend.”
  —Jon Lovett ([39:14])

• On Institutional Failure and the Epstein Scandal:
  “Then whatever truth there was about the conspiracy theory beforehand, they fucking make it true. There is now a conspiracy between the Department of Justice and the White House to conceal information about what is in the Epstein evidence. That is absolutely true.”
  —Jon Lovett ([28:36])

• On Dehumanization:
  “If [Trump] has one great skill as a political person, it is he takes the worst thing about you and he makes it more true...There’s an opposite to that, there’s an alternative...Our job is to offer a vision that is appealing and inspiring, to make the good parts of our nature...more true.”
  —Jon Lovett ([57:31])

• On Podcasting & Authenticity:
  “The harder part...is not like, oh, what parts do you not talk about...It’s more actually like what you say on the microphone and what you say when the microphone is off should be different...not just filling the space between the mattress ads...”
  —Jon Lovett ([53:27])

Important Timestamps

• [00:50] – Lovett’s core thesis: “This is not policymaking. This is vandalism.”
• [02:37] – How Pod Save America started/the ethos behind Crooked Media
• [11:30] – Systematic destruction of institutions & administration’s destructive motives
• [15:14] – Analysis of Trump’s connection with his base; why Dems lag behind
• [17:41] – The next Democratic leader: “made in this moment”
• [25:34] – Epstein conspiracy, public trust, and government/institutional failure
• [32:28] – The future of media and the necessity of a new coalition
• [37:11] – Critique of left's communication strategy: “cathedrals of information”
• [39:14] – The importance of joy, entertainment, and inclusivity in progressive politics
• [53:27] – Podcasting, authenticity, and avoiding shallowness
• [57:31] – Trump’s dehumanizing force vs. the power of positive leadership

Final Thoughts

This episode is a spirited, candid conversation on the bleakness and opportunities of the current American political environment. Lovett demonstrates why the battle isn’t just about policies—it’s about communication, coalitions, authenticity, and the day-to-day fight for the soul of democracy.

Essential takeaway:
Progressives and pro-democracy advocates must recognize the stakes, innovate in communication, build inclusive, entertaining communities, and, above all, maintain fidelity to truth and to the better angels of the American spirit. As Lovett says, quoting a central thesis:
“This is not policymaking. This is vandalism.”