Kara Swisher on Death and Doritos

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Kara Swisher on Death and Doritos"

Podcast: The Best People with Nicolle Wallace
Host: Nicolle Wallace
Guest: Kara Swisher
Date: April 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Nicolle Wallace brings back journalist, tech expert, and podcast pioneer Kara Swisher for a wide-ranging conversation that blends the personal and political. The central theme is the search for meaning, fulfillment, and community in an age defined by rapid technological change, misinformation, health anxieties, and political upheaval. Swisher discusses her upcoming series “Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever,” delving into the worlds of longevity, health, and the influence of tech culture—while drawing out broader lessons for democracy, community, and decency. The discussion is full of insight, candor, humor, and some pointed hot takes on everything from wellness fads to American media.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Power and Intimacy of Podcasting (01:46–04:07)

• Intimacy: Swisher and Wallace reflect on the unique connection podcast hosts form with listeners compared to TV hosts.
  • Kara Swisher (02:55): “Your podcast listeners have you in their ears. It’s much more intimate.”
• Real Talk vs. “Fake Real Talk”: Podcasts allow for more authentic conversations, attracting diverse audiences and breaking down rigid broadcast formats.
  • Kara Swisher (03:32): “People really want real talk…not fake real talk. Like, this is what I actually think…Maybe I’ll make a mistake. Here’s who I am.”

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2. Male Wellness, the Manosphere & Community-Seeking (04:07–06:42)

• Manosphere Critique: Swisher is critical of the “manosphere,” branding much of it as narcissistic, supplement-peddling pseudo-science, but recognizes at its core is a basic human need for community and belonging.
  • “What they wanted is some sort of joining, and that’s what was attractive. And to me, that is eternal for everybody. Humanity’s all about seeking community.” (Kara Swisher, 04:28)
• Health and Longevity: Kara asserts true longevity solutions should focus on social connection and health equity, not just “hacks” for the privileged.
  • “There’s two things that will help with longevity. Don’t be poor…and have friends and family.” (Kara Swisher, 05:14)

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3. American Health, Longevity, and the Tech Bro Obsession (06:42–09:22)

• Longevity “Hacks”: Swisher deconstructs the obsession with body- and life-hacking among Silicon Valley men, rooted in a science fiction-inspired belief in technology’s power to defeat mortality. She contrasts this with Steve Jobs’s embrace of mortality as a creative motivator.
  • “They’ve hacked everything else and they think this is hackable…they thought it could be digitized in some way.” (Kara Swisher, 06:08)
  • “Longevity should be about not how long we’re going to live, but how well we live in the time we have here.” (Kara Swisher, 08:04)

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4. What Actually Works for the Rest of Us? (09:22–12:16)

• Universal Healthcare & Social Determinants: Swisher highlights South Korea’s long lifespans thanks to universal healthcare, contrasting it with the U.S.’s expensive, ineffective “sick care” system.
  • “The United States spends double on healthcare what every other similar country has. Double with worse outcomes.” (Kara Swisher, 09:24)
• Real Innovations: She praises breakthroughs in cancer research, gene-editing (CRISPR), AI, drug discovery, and mRNA technology, but decries political setbacks (e.g., anti-vax rhetoric and research funding cuts).
  • “Drug discovery is going to be collapsed…astonishing things…we’re not there yet but those ideas are starting to formulate.” (Kara Swisher, 09:54)
  • “The cutting of science takes time and money…giving all the innovation to private industry…should not happen.” (Kara Swisher, 11:29)

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5. Tech, Politics, and Trump: The End Game? (12:16–17:39)

• Trump Era Damage: Kara is uncompromising about Trump’s poor health habits and lack of real leadership, blaming his team selection not just on advisors, but on Trump himself.
  • “He is the leader. So he does pick these people. So ultimately…he has bad advisors...friction is good for brain cognition. And there’s issues…with Trump very clearly.” (Kara Swisher, 13:55)
• The Political Future: Swisher sees Trump as a singular phenomenon unlikely to be replicated, predicting the coalition will fracture without him.
  • “I think it was a Donald Trump phenomena. And as I said, JD Vance has all the charm of a Cybertruck.” (Kara Swisher, 15:25)
• Democrats and New Political Talent: Points to Democratic “bench strength” among younger, digitally savvy leaders (AOC, Talarico, McBride) who excel at storytelling and messaging.

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6. Community, Belonging, and the Power of Events (18:32–19:05)

• Events as Community Hubs: Podcast and political events become sites of real connection, not just host-listener adulation, but peer-to-peer bonding.
  • “They don’t just see us. They want to meet other people…” (Kara Swisher, 18:53)
• Storytelling and Relationships: Emphasizes the role of story in forging these bonds.

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7. Media Collapse, Innovation, and Ownership (19:21–28:54)

• Media Disruption: Swisher dismisses media hand-wringing over CBS/CNN’s decline, insisting the real audience has already moved to innovative formats like podcasts.
  • “My demo 25 to 34 is bigger than most cable shows…the audience is still there. It’s just where they are.” (Kara Swisher, 19:56)
• The Problem with Consolidation: She’s wary of media consolidation under tech billionaires like Ellison, but sees new media entrepreneurship opportunities as the real story.
  • “They’ve weaponized speech, they’ve weaponized politics, they’ve weaponized everything…Why are seven people making decisions for the rest of us?” (Kara Swisher, 25:08)
• Resilience of Quality Content: Predicts audience will follow talent and community over platform.

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8. Authenticity, Regret, and Political Courage (29:00–33:30)

• Authenticity: In an era of digital transparency, being “genuine”—even if authentically toxic—is strangely effective.
  • “The one thing online does, you are found out if you are not genuine.” (Kara Swisher, 31:29)
• Political Martyrs & Regret: Insights from Sen. Thom Tillis on why politicians stay silent and pay the price only after leaving office.
  • “Martyrs, you know what martyrs have in common? They’re all dead...It was impossible to get elected if he was honest.” (Kara Swisher, 32:10)
• Making Room for People to Change: Swisher insists on grace for people who shift their views.

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9. The Search for Belonging & Death Acceptance (34:55–38:55)

• People’s Needs: Americans primarily want decency, connection, and a healthier, less stressful life.
  • “People just want a decent life… They want solutions from our public officials. They’re tired of being extremely online.” (Kara Swisher, 34:55)
• Community and Health: Swisher shares experiences from organized game nights and group activities in Brooklyn as ways to tangibly improve mental and physical health.
  • “Of all the things, the health benefits of community are really important.” (Kara Swisher, 36:11)
• Acceptance of Mortality: Research shows accepting death makes people kinder and more community-oriented, while fearing it leads to partisanship and hate.

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10. Tech, Kids, and AI Relationships (38:55–41:37)

• Dangers of Synthetic Relationships: Warns of mental health risks posed by chatbots and AI “friends,” especially for children and the lonely.
  • “You cannot have relationships with chatbots…they’re sycophantic and frictionless.” (Kara Swisher, 38:47)
  • “Loneliness is caused by isolation online and it’s increasing as these tech companies are pushing them at us without any guidelines.” (Kara Swisher, 39:13)
• Intergenerational Shifts: Notes her own children are less online and self-manage their digital habits, signaling hope for “digital natives.”

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11. Real Wellness vs. Fads & Equity in Health (41:38–47:36)

• Universal Healthcare & Regulation: Swisher advocates for universal healthcare, privacy laws, and evidence-based policy on technology’s health impacts.
  • “Universal healthcare, period...regulation around technology in terms of our relationships and privacy and understanding the addictive nature…” (Kara Swisher, 41:38)
• Misinformation & Wellness Fads: Urges skepticism around unproven products; highlights GLP-1s as one genuine medical breakthrough, but insists on robust public funding for science.
  • “The government should fund more science and do gold standard testing on it. Instead of people doing it on their own essentially.” (Kara Swisher, 43:29)

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12. What Actually Impacts Longevity (47:45–49:19)

• Don’t Be Poor: The strongest determinant for health and longevity remains socioeconomic status, not biohacks or supplements.
  • “The number one longevity hack: Don’t be poor, don’t be poor. Because guess what? More stress, more homelessness…There’s outcomes to how much we mistreat poor people.” (Kara Swisher, 47:45)

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13. Optimism, Historical Perspective, and the End of the Trump Era (51:06–52:41)

• Hopeful Outlook: Despite the parade of problems, Swisher insists on optimism rooted in history and Americans’ innovative spirit.
  • “History is long. Just cause you don’t know the end of the story doesn’t mean it’s over…The world spins forward.” (Kara Swisher, 51:06)
• Trump is Us: Cautions against viewing Trump as an anomaly rather than a product of broader cultural forces.
  • “We can’t pretend that he’s this thing that just happened, because everything about him is inside of all of us. And…the most important thing…is, what are we going to build next?” (Kara Swisher, 52:42)

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14. How Do You Want to Die? (54:42–57:15)

• Personal Reflections: In a poignant and witty exchange, Swisher and Wallace discuss what a “good death” would look like, from seeing one’s children grow up to Viking funerals and Steve Jobs’s enigmatic last words.
  • “Once you do [accept mortality] it frees you to live. Because it’s not about death, it’s about how do you want to live.” (Kara Swisher, 37:47)

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On Podcasting:
  “Your podcast listeners have you in their ears. It’s much more intimate.” — Kara Swisher (02:55)

• On Longevity:
  “Don’t be poor…and have friends and family. It’s absolutely the connections.” — Kara Swisher (05:14)

• On Tech Bros & Biohacking:
  “They talk about themselves like gods...I’m gonna digitally put my brain…I’m gonna do body hacking.” — Kara Swisher (08:04)

• On Universal Healthcare:
  “The United States spends double…on healthcare what every other similar country has. Double with worse outcomes.” — Kara Swisher (09:24)

• On Donald Trump’s Coalition:
  “JD Vance has all the charm of a Cybertruck.” — Kara Swisher (15:25)

• On Media Innovation:
  “My demo 25 to 34 is bigger than most cable shows…the audience is still there. It’s just where they are.” — Kara Swisher (19:56)

• On Accepting Death:
  “If you accept death, you become community oriented, you become kinder, you understand your time is limited.” — Kara Swisher (37:47)

• On Authenticity in Public Life:
  “The one thing online does, you are found out if you are not genuine.” — Kara Swisher (31:29)

• On Economic Inequality and Health:
  “The number one longevity hack: Don’t be poor, don’t be poor.” — Kara Swisher (47:45)

• On Optimism and History:
  “History is long. Just cause you don’t know the end of the story doesn’t mean it's over. The world spins forward.” — Kara Swisher (51:06)

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Key Timestamps of Discussion

• Intimacy of Podcasting: 01:46–04:07
• Manosphere & Community: 04:07–06:42
• Tech Bro Longevity Fads: 06:42–09:22
• U.S. vs. Global Healthcare: 09:22–12:16
• The Trump Era & Political Fracture: 12:16–17:39
• Media Decline & New Opportunities: 19:21–28:54
• Mental Health, AI & Community: 34:55–41:37
• Universal Healthcare & Real Wellness: 41:38–47:36
• On Death, Legacy & How to Die: 54:42–57:15

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Tone and Language

The tone is direct, witty, and often irreverent—true to both Swisher’s and Wallace’s styles. The conversation is rich in candor, mixing sharp critique with humor, especially in skewering wellness fads, political cowardice, and the narcissism of tech and media elites.

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Final Thoughts

Kara Swisher delivers a bracing dose of realism and optimism. Her insights center on the enduring value of authenticity, the need for connection, and the urgency of building more equitable, communal approaches to health and public life. The episode leaves listeners with a call to focus less on the glossy promise of techno-salvation—and more on practical, community-driven solutions that benefit everyone, not just the privileged few.

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This summary captures the important ideas, insights, and spirit of the episode, with timestamps and notable quotes for reference and further listening.

Transcript

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[Kara Swisher]

The healthier everyone along the entire scale gets, the better for our society. And we can do it in a way that is not narcissistic, that is not just for the rich people and it's not trying to sell you a solution that's going to add a second to your life. Or are you going to have a better life the time you live here? And that's what's critical to me.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Hi there everyone. Today's guest is someone who has her hands in everything that matters. Media, tech, real pull no punches journalism about the threats to our country and our democracy. She's the rare truth teller. In a moment when just about everything feels couched and edited for some version of self preservation. Her upcoming series, Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever is superb. It dives into the often opaque, fascinating, seemingly faraway world of wellness and longevity. Along the way, it tackles one of our world's biggest questions. What does it mean to have a fulfilling life anyway? When she's not dealing with that, she's busy decoding the wild, wild world of tech and tech bros and explaining how business intersects with this political moment and our culture for the rest of us on her award winning podcast Pivot and on with Kara Swisher. She was gracious enough to join me on this podcast when it first started and she gave me tons of advice that I apply every single week. She's been cheering and supporting the best people since before it started. We are so lucky to have back with us Kara Swisher. Without any further ado, this is the best people and this Is Kara Swisher. Thank you so much. Hi. Where is Kara Swisher?

[Kara Swisher]

She's fantastic.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

She's amazing.

[Kara Swisher]

Wow.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

She's amazing.

[Kara Swisher]

I'd like to meet her.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

We quote you all the time, though, because you've said this thing to me that I think of all the time, which is your podcast listeners have you in their ears.

[Kara Swisher]

That's right.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

So much more intimate.

[Kara Swisher]

Absolutely. And you explore a social relationship, and

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

you explain that, like, when people come up to you and they've seen you on tv, they still want to talk to you, but when they listen to you, they're your fans.

[Kara Swisher]

That's right. We have different demos, too. It's crazy. Amount of different demos, which is really interesting to me. People that are unlike each other, and that's what I like about it. They have an intimate relationship with it. They feel like they know you. And it takes the airlessness out of broadcast because podcasts are now moving into video or have moved. What are you talking about? It's done. But it creates a different kind of new television, which is really exciting, I think.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Why do people like it more? I mean, I think people like it

[Kara Swisher]

more because it's real. You know, TV can be airless. Like, it doesn't exist in a space, and it's not real to people. And in some level, people sort of like that, but more in their entertainment or in their fantasy kind of stuff. But I think people really want real talk from people. And I don't mean fake real talk. I mean real, real talk. Like, this is what I actually think. Maybe I'll make a mistake. Here's who I am. And without doing it in a manipulative way, in a very genuine way. So I think people are ready for that. And I think more and more in this world where there's so much anger that there's lots of ways to solve that through real discussions.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Well, I also think it's on a. It's moving this way, right. Toward conversations that are more authentic. And you have to give the right credit. I mean, the manosphere illustrates its power in politics in 2024, but it's doing that while the politics are going the other way. Right. So full of disinformation and propaganda and authority, authoritarianism and bullshit.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, see, I don't have to give them credit. The manosphere. I'm gonna disagree with you on that one. Because, look, there's a lot of things that are sort of con. Like. Like, it appeals to men wanting to, like, feel manly and stuff like that. A lot of it is selling supplements A lot of it is selling nonsensical entrepreneurship ideas. I just interviewed Louis Thoreau, who I thought thinks amazing has done this thing on the manosphere. And what interesting was when he talked to the fans and there's a lot of misogyny and all that stuff among the people he interviewed. But the people listening just wanted community, you know, and this is. They didn't necessarily hate women. They didn't necessarily, you know, believe in all this stuff. What they wanted is some sort of joining, and that's what was attractive. And to me, that is eternal for everybody. Humanity's all about seeking community.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Tribes.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, not just tribes, but like, connections. And one of the things, speaking of this show, someone was like, what is the thing to live forever? I don't mean I don't want to live forever, by the way, but. And I always, I'm like, there's two things that will help with longevity. Don't be poor. And we can talk about that inequality around health and have friends and family. And scientifically, it's absolutely. The connections are very clear is the more time you're isolated online, the more time you have these weird relationships with synthetic chatbots, for example, the less happy you are, the sicker you are, the quicker you are to have a shorter life and a less satisfying life. And so a lot of what's happening with digital is really bad for our health, but it also could be good for our health.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

So is it just a twist of fate or deep irony that the tech bros are sort of out front as champions of all the longevity hacks?

[Kara Swisher]

No, because they've hacked everything else and they think this is hackable. They've decided this is the great unlock. And it's also a financial thing. They're hoping to make money from it, but it's something that's really hard. Is what is mortality? What is living? How do you live? And they're also sort of the inspiration is science fiction, right? They're very big consumers when they were kids, of science fiction, of Star Trek, of Star wars, of all these things. And they illuminate them.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Take us through what you do. And did anything change, like what you do?

[Kara Swisher]

A hundred percent. So it started off with this idea. I was at these dinner parties, and they were always. They started being so narcissistic. And I'm going on Soylent. I'm doing intermittent fasting. And I'd sit there and be like, I don't care. It's interesting when they talk about women, talk too much about food, it's always a problem. It's dysmorphia. When it's men, it's body hacking. And I'm like, it's more narcissistic. So not hot and. Yeah, so not hot. That's a good way to put it. Cause I'm always looking for a man, so. So one of the things that was interesting to me was that they were obsessed with it because they thought it could be digitized in some way. And a lot of it can be, by the way. And so I was like, oh, this is so exhausting. And my inspiration had been Steve Jobs, who had actually given one of the greatest speeches, which was about death. He gave a speech at Stanford. He had been sick, then he got better, and then he got sick again. But in the period he was better, he gave this astonishing speech about mortality being the single greatest gift to innovation because it made you understand mortality. Remembering that I'll be dead soon is the most important tool I've ever encountered to help me make the big choices in life. Because almost everything, all external expectations, all pride, all fear of embarrassment or failure, these things just fall away in the face of death, leaving only what is truly important. And I thought that was a beautiful message, actually, and a really interesting cause. Death always prompted him to leave things and take risks and everything else. To me, a very clean and healthy way to think about it. And then all the dudes were trying to do some things to their body to hack themselves, to do a version of a facelift. That was kind of grotesque in some way. And they talked about themselves like gods. Like, I'm gonna digitally put my brain. I'm gonna take all these vitamins. I'm gonna do body hacking. I'm gonna do supplements. I'm gon. And eventually it was the idea of marrying technology or robotics, a cyborg into people. And to me, it was sick. It just was like, this is not how we move together. Longevity should be about not how long we're going to live, but how well we live in the time we have here. And that means better health, too, and better outcomes. Because we are in a situation right now where we have a sick care system. We do not have a health care system. We have a lifespan and a health span that is 15 years. There's a delta of 15 years. So you reach a point where you are sick for that last part. So why can't we merge lifespan and healthspan? And there's all. It started off with. You people are driving me fucking crazy. And then it became, okay, what is working for the rest of us? And not for these people that have the money and time to do these things.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

So what is working for the rest of us?

[Kara Swisher]

Not a lot right now, actually. And so. And I'll get to. I went to Korea because that's where the longest lifespans are on this planet, by the way. And there's lots of reasons for it. One is healthcare. In terms of universal healthcare, the people of everybody gets good health care. That's a simple and stupid thing, but it's not. It's something that really saves money. It saves time. The United States spends double on healthcare what every other similar country has. Double with worse outcomes.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Among the worst outcomes.

[Kara Swisher]

The worst outcomes for the dollar. Yeah, right, exactly. And the sickest people, the fattest people, the people who have the most problems with obesity and all the diseases that hang off of it. And so one of the things, what I tried to split it into is like a couple of things. One is what are the scientific progress happening and in AI and cancer research? Astonishing. CRISPR gene editing. Astonishing. All this gene therapy they're working on, the drug discovery is going to be collapsed. The ability to understand and have new fresh ideas using technology and AI. Astonishing. We're not there yet by any stretch. Robotics. There's all this astonishing things that I saw in Korea around, like very lightweight robotics. When it's combined with AI, it starts to get really interesting when people start to lose their lenses like that. Eventually we'll be able to print a liver. Probably not today, but those ideas are starting to formulate that's scientific. And of course, MRNA technology, which has been so, you know, this politicized.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Right, Right.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, it's murderous. What people are doing around mRNA? Oh, 100%. And the fact that we have measles, I don't even want to. I don't know what to say about that. No.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Like our kids will know kids that die of diseases that we didn't know kids dying of.

[Kara Swisher]

Correct. Right. It's like cholera. Like what? Right. Huh?

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

Things. You could Google stuff. Right. And so this MRNA technology that they had been working on originally MRNA was a cancer vaccine. What's going on is amazing. The ability to make these things and focus them in on individual people is going to be groundbreaking.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

How much of a setback is it to have Trump and RFK there?

[Kara Swisher]

Very bad. And I interviewed, I went to this one Nobel laureate's lab in Philadelphia, University of Pennsylvania. And many of the doctors and researchers are moving to Canada, to France, who are offering great sums of money ahead. And one of the things he was sort of this sort of dry doctor. And he's like, we're gonna be begging China in the next pandemic for vaccines, which we shouldn't be doing. Right. We were ahead on everything. The cutting of science takes time and money, and it requ. To be part of it. This idea of the demonization of government is so damaging given how far ahead we were in a lot of these things. And giving all the innovation to private industry, which I think is important, should not happen, because then those people are in charge of everything versus all the rest of us.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

I mean, you could replace that with the word diplomacy. Right, Right. Like government does diplomacy and like everything Elon Musk did with Doge to usaid.

[Kara Swisher]

Doge was a failure. Let's be clear. Look, he's good at rockets. Great. Good luck. You know, he's not. He didn't find the fraud that they said. They didn't do anything. All they did was wreck things without any idea of what they're gonna build. They move fast. They broke things and they're broken.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

What's he doing now? Just.

[Kara Swisher]

He's working on. He's gonna become a trillionaire. So he's working on that.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Does it make him happy?

[Kara Swisher]

He doesn't seem happy to me. I don't know. Does he seem happy to you? He's always. He seems like he's always rage tweeting about something.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

I think I told her I left Twitter out for the election, so I'm not sure what he's posting, but certainly watching the conduct of the war in Iran, it's clear that. And Maggie Haber and Jonathan Swan's reporting on this for their new book, you know, lays it all out for everyone to see.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, there is a bit of people trying to show that they didn't believe it, just in case.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Just that none of them believed it.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

And they staffed a president into a war. None of them. That is correct. Supported and believed or recommended.

[Kara Swisher]

I just did an interview with Thom Tillis about that, and he was talking about that, like the idea of they. He. But that's Trump's own fault. He's not a toddler. He puts people in place that will do that.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Well, Marco Rubio a toddler either. I mean, the. Well, I guess he plays one on TV.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Exactly.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

The idea that. And I thought Trump 1.0 was an abomination, and I thought the country sort of barely survived it, but all of the national security people that I knew said, we can survive one term, we can't survive two.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

It feels like we're living through that barely survivable stuff.

[Kara Swisher]

Now, you know what's interesting is that Trump never gets to blame for that. He is the leader. So he does pick these people. So ultimately, of course, he has bad advisors. There's advisors who sit around and don'. Give you actual feedback and they don't create friction. You want friction if you want to make good decisions, by the way, you want friction in health. Friction is good for brain cognition. And there's issues around that with Trump very clearly.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

What do you think they are?

[Kara Swisher]

I think he's old and I don't think he eats well and he doesn't sleep. I mean, it's just the kind of stuff he does.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Nothing that people recommend.

[Kara Swisher]

Now, look, you could live a long time as a rage filled person. By the way, there's plenty of old people in senior facilities that look very vibrant and yelling about the pudding. And that's what he does. He yells about the pudding all day long. But one of the things that's problematic is you have, you know, oddly enough, it's an unhealthy environment with people where they live in fear, they are fearful of death, they're fearful of losing power. And these are all things that, you know, eat at the heart of people and therefore they make bad decisions. I mean, it's pretty, pretty clear what's happening. And he's put people around him who are willing to do this rather than willing to push back.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Where do you think it's heading right now?

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know. He can do a lot of damage on his way out. I think it's over. You know, I've said this a number of times. I think it's over. It's just whatever. We're in the end stages of this and you can see that by the fighting among, in between these people. Right. That they're, that they understand that it doesn't get held together without a vibrant Trump in the middle of it.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

So who do you think inherits the next chapter or whatever?

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know. It'll be really interesting to watch because a lot of these people have made these compromises that are so profound. Like, Marco Rubio is a very good example, obviously an intelligent person, but he's decided power is more important than just saying and doing the right thing. And so there's a lot of choices. It depends on where this coalition goes. I don't think there's gonna be a coalition like this again. I think it was a Donald Trump phenomena. And as I said, JD Vance has all the charm of a Cybertruck. So you know, who don't want that car?

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

I know you had what we talked about this last time you'd watched the Apprentice. It was sort of this unique coalition made up of all of his fans. And then it was a whole bunch of Republicans who saw the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that I obviously worked for George Bush, and they saw trade agreements and they saw all these things that the party was for that didn't serve them, so they were available. And then a bunch of people that just thought, let's try this. It's different. And you don't think that reassembles itself under whom?

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, look, Latinos are moving. Tucker Carlson maybe, but that's a certain brand. You gotta like that, that flavor of soda. And it's a very toxic flavor of soda. So I don't. No, I don't think it has an ability to hold it together. It's not.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Why does everyone capitulate still if it's a coalition that can't be reassembled, a brand that's in the toilet and an era that's over because they don't see it coming?

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, historically, it's so clear what's going on here. Just think about a historical figure like Huey Long. Had he lived right, it probably would have held together until when Huey Long died and was killed, that was over. It took a long time to be over, but then it was over. And then you'll wait for another compelling, charismatic figure to come and bring them together. And so in that way, Donald Trump's a unique political figure.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Right?

[Kara Swisher]

Reagan was also, to an extent. It held people together. Now the question is, who's next? Who is the next one? To me, you see more like. I see more interest in figures. We may not know, but there's all these really interesting characters sort of running around. The question is, do they have a deep enough bench? And they don't. The Republicans absolutely do not. The Democrats have a really interesting bench. And I'm not talking about the top players right now. Among the younger people.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Who do you like?

[Kara Swisher]

Greg Cesar, Sarah McBride? You know, I like the different ones, and they don't have to all agree. And I think one of the things that has been a weakness for Democrats and inability to agree is actually a good thing in the coming times. And it'll coalesce and we'll see people figuring it out. But a lot of these people are young. They understand social media, they understand storytelling. You know, if you don't like Bom Donnie, fine, that's great. But Then there's someone else in another state that's doing something else, or a Talarico couldn't be more different, but the same in so many ways. Like, they know how to communicate and message to people. Among the Republicans, except for screaming and yelling and hating, I don't know who's appealing and makes you feel better about yourself. And in a weird way, Donald Trump made people feel better about themselves by attacking other people, which is a way to do it. But he did. He did make people feel good. Speaking of community, he's very good at building community.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Well, his rallies. Right. He became.

[Kara Swisher]

People made fun of them.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

I thought Mecca for these folks.

[Kara Swisher]

But that's cause people want to belong.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Well, to your first point, they wanted to be part of a community, even

[Kara Swisher]

if it's a toxic community. It's kind of nice to have other people. And I think that's. It's a very powerful thing.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Well, you guys do all the events and people come out in droves.

[Kara Swisher]

They do. Because they want to meet each other.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

They want to meet each other.

[Kara Swisher]

They don't just see us. They want to meet other people who like.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Who listen. And then they could talk about, you know, we love it. And then people are upset when you guys had a fight and they're glad when you forgave it. You know, like they ride through these story.

[Kara Swisher]

It's storytelling.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

It's a relationship.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

It's community. Yeah. I mean, explain to me why I want to desperately believe that you're right, that it's over. It feels like being in the car with a drunk person whose hands are still on the steering wheel.

[Kara Swisher]

It's not always in terms of damage.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

But what explains the sort of destruction that his allies still want to do in terms of sort of taking over all the media outlets, tearing down what was great about cbs?

[Kara Swisher]

Is it destruction?

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

I don't know. It seems like destruction. I mean, CBS has just posted its worst.

[Kara Swisher]

Correct. I mean, if so that's what I'm saying.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Building is about building an audience. Destruction seems to be about.

[Kara Swisher]

When I was on my tour, everyone. There's a lot of media obsession with cbs. And I get it. It's interesting. The interesting characters.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

It's just the first thing that Ellison has destroyed, in my view.

[Kara Swisher]

Except did he destroy it or was it on its way? He's just destroying it faster. I mean, I think that's what you have to ask yourself. I went on to. I said show of hands. Like everyone's. Everyone in every city was like, tell us about cbs. It's the End of democracy. And I said show of hands. Show of hands. How many of you watched a CBS news program recently? Nobody. Because the age is very high. It doesn't have ratings. And one of the things I was trying to point out to people is like my Pivot podcast. And by the way, the manosphere ones are all of them. Not just the manosphere, the Travis Kelce one, Whatever. The one you want to pick. My demo 25 to 34 is bigger than most cable shows. So what's happening here? The audience is still there. It's just where they are. So why are we so upset about thing that doesn't work anymore? It's like being concerned about player pianos. They're player pianos, and they either have to reinvigorate themselves or. Or move on to the inevitable thing that happens to everything. We used to before this. Remember maps? They don't exist anymore. Remember payphones? Are we owned today? Did I get here today?

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Well, then let me ask you more specifically. Why does Larry Ellison want it?

[Kara Swisher]

No idea. I'm perplexed. Because he's a very good business person and it's a bad business.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

I mean, do you think he's a good steward of a news division?

[Kara Swisher]

I think they're interested in the studios and the iPad of Warner, which is excellent. They've got Harry Potter, they've got Game of Thrones, they've got all manner of IP that is very valuable, and I think that's what they're interested in. And I think the news stuff is. I think if you spend a lot of time thinking it's a plot, it's not. They don't think about it at all.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

We'll take them out of it. Hegseth and Trump seem to think it's a plot. I mean, Hegseth said Hegseth is a

[Kara Swisher]

moron, so that's how he thinks. So, I mean, yeah. Oh, we're going to make people. When's the last time you watched a news program and really were convinced to change your mind on something significant in your life? You don't. It's not gonna matter if you give people Pablum. They're not gonna consume it.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

So your theory is CBS and CNN don't matter in that?

[Kara Swisher]

I don't think they don't matter unless they invigorate themselves and become innovative in a way the audience likes. If they don't, this is what's gonna. And that's what's happening. Like, look. Look at the numbers. They're not turning around because they're not offering audiences meaningful things that help their lives. And I think that's what's really important. If you're gonna, and again, just depend on the show, like all this nonsense around wellness, you're not gonna live longer. What is gonna work? And so I think people naturally, audiences naturally sense that, and they're running to other things. And so you just start to see more innovation, which is important in media. When something dies, something always like on my wrist here, this is chaos. This is entropy and syntropy. That's the law of the.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

This is the Easter bunny, and this is my daughter's jewelry.

[Kara Swisher]

But you have to think about it that way. So is it the worst thing for something to die? I don't know. No.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

We'll take a quick break right here. When we're back, much more with journalists and podcast pioneer Kara Swisher. Stay with

[Kara Swisher]

me.

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[Kara Swisher]

It's an ecosystem and that's how you have to think about it. Like, the right wing did a really good job of this. They had an ecosystem and so I'VE always pushed love. I'm like, we're not competing. We're the same. We are giving people different things. And so what's really happening in media, to me is exciting, actually.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

But you don't deny that a person in bed with an autocratic president now owns a whole bunch of media properties who didn't three years ago? And that's not a great thing for democracy, is it?

[Kara Swisher]

I don't think some of the owners of previous administrations of these things were very good either. So. I don't know. I don't know, is it? We tend to romanticize things in media as if some of the owners weren't just terrible too. And so, yeah, I think it's a problem that they had their hands on all the data. I think it's a problem that they have their hands on every aspect of how people communicate. They make determination and they can create partisan. You know, I've complained about this. They've weaponized speech, they've weaponized politics, they've weaponized everything. And so something like the Matrix, you're a frigging battery in their world. And they take advantage of everything. And I have a problem with the government that doesn't regulate it. So that's the issue is how much privacy regulation should there be, how much regulation over AI and what's in it? Why are they making all the decisions? Why are seven people making decisions for the rest of us? And. And they're so narcissistic, they're so self interested in their shareholders. They're never gonna make a decision for everybody. And that is what is missing. I do think there was a sense that media was a public trust, but it's done. It's done. And now we have to come up with some new ways to communicate with people. Luckily, there's all these astonishing ways to do it. And so you can build stuff and say, I'm leaving and I'm gonna create my own thing. And you can start to attract an audience. And there's some power in that, I think, personally.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

But is there. Is it stacked against you? If the Ellisons own CNN and cbs, is there any danger for democracy in having it sort of under an umbrella or a suite of interests?

[Kara Swisher]

I think bigger is not better in this situation. I think there's all these incredible media entrepreneurship things happening. I think it's good for media and

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

the algorithms will just solve themselves if it's good enough.

[Kara Swisher]

I do think that people. We used to have an information desert in a lot of ways. Now we have information flood. Yeah, it's the same problem. It's a problem either way. And I firmly believe in the audience that they will seek out and begin to understand what's fake. It's same thing with, Look, OpenAI just ended Sora. Right? Why? It didn't work. People didn't want it. They rejected it because it's slop. Everyone's like, oh no, AI is going to ruin everything. I'm like, is it? Do people really want it? I just think there's all. There's lots of ways to get to Jerusalem, as they say. There's lots of roads to get there. And you can create media companies, companies now that are much more nimble and quick. You know, when you guys spun off, I think I said to you, this is your hugest opportunity. It's not a disaster. And you know, of course all the media writers like, oh, it's trouble. I'm like, no, it's. You're up now. Why are you up? Why do you think you're up?

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Yeah, well, I think our audience likes what they're.

[Kara Swisher]

They like, what they're getting. You're cooking food, they like. Whatever you're making, they like. And so the question for media entrepreneurs is what do you want to make today and what do you think people will buy? And you don't have to have lowest common denominator. People are a lot smarter. I think the problem is, is the noise to signal ratio is so high right now. There's a lot of noise, but the signal is starting to come through and you can get inundated. Like there's so much crap. There's also so much good stuff. So which one do you want to make and how can you find that audience to do so?

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

And so with the Ellisons taking over cnn, that doesn't give you any pause?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, it does. I'm leaving. I said that a million times. I don't wanna work for tech people. You know, when I first started all my entrepreneur stuff, I was like, I don't wanna work for tech people who seem to be incompetent at media. That's what. Right. At this point, I haven't seen anything that shows me competence or love of journalism. And so I have a choice to walk or not. And so I think the question is, could they make something really? Could they make something dangerous? Right. Something propaganda oriented? I'm not so sure in this country you can do that as easily as there's so many opportunities for others to speak out. Yeah.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

What is your sort of feeling about all the despair then on the left

[Kara Swisher]

well, they're always in despair, aren't they? They always in despair.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

I mean, I don't know. I mean, look, I.

[Kara Swisher]

What's the despair?

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

I think a lot of people are scared of the media consolidation and of Brand New York.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm always scared of any consolidation. I don't like consolidation in this case. I want to wait and see what they're going to do. I don't know what they're going to do. And it doesn't matter because look, this administration is coin operated and we'll allow it. And then they have that moron at the fcc, Brendan Carr, who now is just overtly political in a way that it's ridiculous. He's auditioning for a middle management role in his next life or whatever where, you know, the things he says publicly is so anti free speech. And you know, I always say every accusation is a confession.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

He just actually names people we got rid of. Every time he opens his mouth, I'm like, you are displaying lack of power because. Right.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

And they keep celebrating like the old hits, right. They keep going on and on about that week we took Jimmy Kimmel.

[Kara Swisher]

He's a moron. He's just like a moron.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Colbert, guess what?

[Kara Swisher]

Colbert will do something else and it'll be more powerful. And he has now has the opportunity not to have anybody tell him what to do. Great. And he has the. Now he can do it in a way that he gets to own it, by the way. He'll probably do a podcast, he'll probably do maybe a video thing. He could do all manner of stuff that will be much more interesting.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

So you're sounding a little bit more like platform agnostic. Like you don't think it's the end of the day.

[Kara Swisher]

No.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

If the platform on which these people existed goes away and it becomes something else, as long as the audience kind

[Kara Swisher]

of goes with it, then the audience goes with it. And that's the new environment of media. And I do, I just don't think I'm a math person. I see the numbers. My 25 to 30, 40 thing is as big as CBS News.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm good.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

And maybe some of it is because of your platform.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know. I think it's better because of the

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

content and the platform. I don't know.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm making better stuff that are more attractive and so can lots of people. Joanna Stern just left the Wall Street Journal. Amazing technology report. Casey Newton Oliver Darcy. These are all different topics and they're all doing different things and they're doing well, what's the difference if it's not big corporation? In fact, it's bitter.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

What do you see on the left that gives you any hope that they see this, that they recognize the new media landscape?

[Kara Swisher]

They do look at the talent that AOC or Talarico or Mamdani bring to it. They do vibrant communications and messaging. They do see.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Do you think they've sort of bridged that gap 100%?

[Kara Swisher]

But lots of people have Newsom. Like, it's all different, whether it be

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Pritzker does a good job.

[Kara Swisher]

Pritzker does a great job. Like, people are starting to understand storytelling and messaging and actually maybe asking the voters what they want and having respect for voters is a really good thing. But this idea that we have to be centrist or this. You have to be who you are. And that's the one thing online does you are found out if you are not genuine. Now, you could trick people and do propaganda, but one thing that Donald Trump is, he's genuine. He's genuinely awful, but he's genuine. It's who he is. And I think that's one of the reasons he's so successful online.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Did you get any sense from Tillis that there are any regrets about not being who they were and letting the differences between.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, he had a good point about, like, martyrs, you know? You know what martyrs, martyrs have in common? They're all dead. Like, he was like, you couldn't. Like, I can now say what everybody else wants to say, but had I done it when I was trying to run, I would have not been able to run. Like, that's their excuse. Right? He's correct in saying that it was impossible to get elected if he was honest, and they're totally honest, and he could work behind the scenes. And I think he has.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

He's right.

[Kara Swisher]

He has more leverage than ever before. He's holding up the Fed thing now. He can say what he wants. He doesn't care. He was very critical. What's interesting, the only criticism I would have is left. It's like, oh, we don't want him now. We sure as hell want him now. I don't really care. Like, bring them in. Sounds good. One of my best interviews I ever did with Representative McBride from Delaware, who just got attacked in Congress by Nancy Mace and all this manner of stupid bathroom stuff. Took it with grace, didn't focus in on it. And one of the things I said is, how do you do that? And she goes, you know what? I don't have the luxury of centering

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

it on Bringing it on that. Right, right.

[Kara Swisher]

And so she's like, I'm here to represent the citizens of Delaware. And she said, I need to have uncomfortable allies if I want to do that. And I thought, well, it was brilliant.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

It was sort of. I mean, that interview sort of frames her entire public service brand, I think that's right. I mean, she just. She said that to you?

[Kara Swisher]

Yep.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

And then that's how she's governed. Like, she hasn't centered how the Democrats

[Kara Swisher]

should govern, depending on what the constituency New York wants. The Mamdani thing, they voted overwhelmingly for. And to me, I always like a lot of this stuff when all the Democrats were like, oh, Mamdani, I'm like, the voters voted for. So leave the vote to your point. Overwhelmingly, overwhelmingly. And also, you know, you tell people, young people to vote, and then they vote and you don't like their vote, and you're gonna complain about their vote. They voted. This is what they want. Same thing with the Trump voters. This is what they wanted.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

And they may be having buyer's remorse right now, which I think it looks like that's happening. It's clear from the polls, but that's what they picked. And we have to have respect. Whether you can call the manians if you feel like it, I don't think it helps. I don't think it maybe makes you feel better.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

But. But that's what they voted for. And if that's what they voted for and that's what they said, we're gonna have to live with it and deal with it on some level.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

When you watch his coalition fray publicly, what do you like? I think Democrats could run on the price of eggs in the border because that worked for Trump. And Trump hasn't delivered at all on either of those things.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, he has kept. Border crossings are down.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Right. But he's turned all of his attention and squandered all of his political capital and the mo. I mean, Trump has gone so overboard in the things that are unpopular he's left available for Democrats, the things that are more popular, which is to secure the board. What, in your gut and from being out in the country and all over, do you think people want.

[Kara Swisher]

Look, people just want a decent life. They want good health care. They want their kids to not like what's going to happen with AI. They want help. They want solutions from our public officials, whoever they happen to be. I think they're tired of the yelling and they're tired themselves of it doing it. They're tired of feeling isolated. I think they're tired of being extremely online. I think they're worried about their kids, whether it's boys with too much porn online or girls with the self esteem. And they wanna have a good working wage, they wanna feel good about their lives. And one of the things that is happening is they wanna return to community. You've seen all these stories of young people going into church, more young people, people are seeking out connection. And let me get back to my thing, health is about connection. One of the things I did which I found very moving and actually politically moving was a bunch of young people in Brooklyn. I brought a neuroscientist with me to talk about brain plasticity and everything else. And we played games. They put the phones away, they played chess, they played poker, they played. And they do this in Brooklyn every couple of weeks. This young man organized it all young people, and they love it. They rush em.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

They were playing this. I am in charge of game night. I have Jenga blocks, like in every room in my house. I love game night, but it brings.

[Kara Swisher]

I just did a mahjong party and I put together 16 people, didn't know each other. Everyone was laughing their asses off and it was really interesting. And then the neuroscientists said, here's what's happening. Here is your brain plasticity is improving because you have. First of all, you have a challenge of a game. Second of all, you have community. Third of all, you have friction with people and meeting people. Another thing, I went to a group of people, they put you with five people you've never met. Because meeting new people is also really good for your health and you've never met them. I think it's a nationwide group and. And you meet five people in a. It's not a dating setting and it's all different people. And you went bowling together and had pizza and it was really fun. And at first I was like, do I want to meet people I don't never met? Like, what if they're weird? And I have to tell you, I felt so much better. And I could feel my. The health benefits were clear. Of all the things, the health benefits of community are really important. And I think there's getting back to the political stuff. You have to make people feel like they belong. You can win by making people feel separate too, by the way, and hateful. And one of the incredible takeaways of the last episode is I talked to the Skidmore professor and if you're scared of death and fearful, you become partisan, political, hateful toward the other if you accept death, you become community oriented, you become kinder, you understand your time is limited and you stop grasping. And he's doing all these tests, these incredible studies about it and death. Acceptance is a really healthy thing. And it pieces.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

How do you get there, though? I mean, we have young kids, we

[Kara Swisher]

have, you know, like, I think about everything I do. I'm gonna die in 50 years. Oh, okay, then I'll do this. Like, I start to think, am I really gonna get in that fight with this person? But it's more than that. It's the idea. And you know, Buddhism is about that. Of course, a lot of world religions have that kind of sense about it. And what's really interesting is once you do that, it frees you to live, because it's not about death. It's about how do you want to live. And once you start thinking like that and starting to do the practices that are, you know, there's a way to live where you eat Doritos and hate each other.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Can you accept death and eat Doritos?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. You can also eat Doritos. If you like a Dorito, have a Dorito. The question is, how many should you have? Should it be the only thing you should have and stuff like that. One of the things I came away from because one of the problems I have with online is misinformation. And you and I have talked about that a lot. And it has really deleterious effects, effects in politics, it has incredibly bad effects socially and everything else, but it has really bad effects in health, Especially these chatbots and everything else where we're talking

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

about, what do they tell you to do?

[Kara Swisher]

You cannot have relationships with chatbots. Well, they're sycophantic and they're frictionless. And that's not the you should.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

And they're just these, like fake, synthetic.

[Kara Swisher]

Are you kidding? People are moving into them in great speeds because they're lonely. Right. Loneliness is also a health epidemic. And loneliness is caused by isolation online. And it's increasing as these tech companies are pushing them at us without any guidelines. And so they've creating therapists or friends to kids who we have. No.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

So kids are talking to these, talking

[Kara Swisher]

to these robots, talking about. Yeah, and they're not people. One of the things that's really important is to imagine a world where you only have synthetic relationships. And it's unhealthy. It's actually an unhealthy one.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

But to your point about media, it sounds like people are rejecting that. If they're flocking to real People, but

[Kara Swisher]

these chatbots are being pushed on people without anything.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

So how do you are they like the new cigarettes?

[Kara Swisher]

In a lot of ways they are because it is because people are lonely and they need. Now the thing is, I went to Korea and they're using them for the elderly to try to make them less lonely, which makes them more healthy. But then they bring them together at this. So the government is involved in figuring out what's the best health outcome. So you can use AI in a good way. But the way they're doing it is like with our. You know, I've interviewed all the parents of the kids who commit suicide after having these synthetic relationships. There's no regulations. These people should go to jail for what they did.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

I think this is going to be this donut generation where they're like, when our kids are adults, they're going to be like, our parents gave us phones and they didn't even put any controls

[Kara Swisher]

on them when we were eight.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

And like, it'll be like my parents did put sunscreen on me. I've got sunburns from when I went to Tahoe when I was like 8.

[Kara Swisher]

Baby oil.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

I think our kids are going to talk about having phones as 8 year olds.

[Kara Swisher]

They are rejecting them. I have a 20 and 23 year old and I have to say they're less online than they are. They use the tools like users. YouTube is their television. As I said to a lot of network, YouTube is television. Just FYI they use it in certain ways. But I think they. One of my sons got rid of all the social media apps and I said, why'd you do that? He goes, I feel bad. I was like, okay. It made me sick. I feel sick and I know it. And I think what's hard is that they're addictive and necessary and that's the problem. And it really can create a healthcare crisis, really in a lot of ways. Mentally. The mental links to. With physical. It links with all kinds of things. And so some of the things, one of the reasons I did this is because technology is at the dead center of this, both good and bad.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

But why don't they feel any obligation to be good?

[Kara Swisher]

Because we haven't made them to be. That people need to be made to do things by the body politic, by all of us. That's better for all of us. What's happening now in this area that I just explored is they're taking all the juicy bits for themselves. They're doing all the body hacking for themselves. When there's low cost Ways for all of us to be healthier. Why shouldn't all of us be healthier?

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

So what are they?

[Kara Swisher]

Universal healthcare, period. Very good healthcare for everyone. And the rich wanna buy more. Good for you. Go for it. Move your body around any way you feel like and spend whatever you want. Most of it doesn't work. But enjoy yourself.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Knock yourselves out.

[Kara Swisher]

Knock yourselves out. So universal healthcare regulation around technology in terms of our relationships and privacy and understanding the addictive nature. I just Tristan Harris on my show. This is addictive. This is crawls down your brainstorm. What are the impacts of these technologies on our health and our mental state? Because our mental state is linked closely to our health state. Promotion of friends and family to be able to get people to do that Understanding what a lot of this misinformation is dealing with misinformation all over the place by the way. Not just health wise but if you go online you'd think a red light would, you know, get you a husband and solve your warts and also do this. They don't. I bought.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

What are. I bought the blanket you like buckle in. What is it? I don't even know what I'm doing in there.

[Kara Swisher]

You shouldn't be in there. Yeah, stop doing that. That's you know, if it makes you feel better.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Nothing.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes but because everybody has one. If everyone jumped off a bridge, would you think it?

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

No, but I was like how you know it's not going to get.

[Kara Swisher]

Because online they're telling you it solves everything problem. It's good for some wounds or soreness.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

I don't have any wounds. What am I doing in there?

[Kara Swisher]

Hyperbaric chambers. That's a good scent. Right now what is that? Nothing. It does you know what it does.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

And I'm usually immune to all of

[Kara Swisher]

it, but I think it bends. I would suggest a hyperbaric chamber.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Yeah, I bought otherwise blanket. It was a long winter.

[Kara Swisher]

Did you feel better?

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

No, I mean I still. It's rolled in a blanket.

[Kara Swisher]

You know what works well what A blanket. Like a regular blanket.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Did you discover anything? What do peptides. What's a peptide?

[Kara Swisher]

GLP ones.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Peptides. Those are actually.

[Kara Swisher]

Those work right people 100% people think

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

those are life changing.

[Kara Swisher]

They will be and we don't know yet. But around weight loss, obesity, addiction. It's for the whole population. It's like this is a really interesting. So guess what we should do? The government should fund more science and do gold standard testing on it.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

Instead of people doing it on their own essentially.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

The same thing about any of this stuff. It needs to be tested. But a lot of it is like, like, oh, just use it because it's better. I'm like, can you show me the study?

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

And they're like, well, I feel better. I'm like, it's not really proof.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

My conversation with Kara Swisher continues right after the break. We'll be right back.

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Okay, so GLP1s are good. My red light blanket sucks. What else sucks?

[Kara Swisher]

Whatever. If you feel better, do not get in a hyperbaric chamber. People on the regular, it's this. It's, it's what you go in when you have the band.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

What about the cold thing?

[Kara Swisher]

The cold heat? I hate sauna. Fantastic for.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Yeah, I feel like that's tested. Weight training. That's good.

[Kara Swisher]

Weight training is weight training.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

We have the same trainer.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, we do have the same trainer. VO2 max.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

VO2 max. What's that?

[Kara Swisher]

It's a good test. It's how your muscles and heart interact. And it's really important to understand that you don't have to exhaust yourself when you're, when you're exercising, what you need to do is go up and down the heart scale and to get your muscles more efficient. Yes, because it's more. You want to make a more efficient relationship between the muscles and energy in your heart. What I'm trying to say is a lot of this is cost free, stupid thing. Eat dinner, go for a walk. Guess what Enormous health benefits. How much?

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Everything they do in Europe.

[Kara Swisher]

Take your blanket with you if you need to. But it should have thing like in Europe have healthier foods, whole foods, fresher foods mix Mediterranean diet. If you want to have a Dorito, have a Dorito. But a lot of the food noises because ultra processed foods are designed to addict you. Just the way cigarettes were the only thing. I agree. RFK Jr and is that like, like, you know, like he's like, we should not have ultra processed too. No shit, Sherlock. We all know that. And the power of that lobby is really grotesque.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Right?

[Kara Swisher]

And we should get rid of those. Otherwise everything else he does is murderous. So MRNA vaccines, incredible technologies around those. Cancer vaccines, HIV vaccines. I went and visited a lab in Philadelphia. There's astonishing, by the way, we're not funding them. And the Trump attacks on research funding is criminal. Is criminal. And we should restore those. And because science takes time, government and private industry should work together. We shouldn't let private industry decide everything. And by the way, we shouldn't let government decide everything because private industry has innovation. So this idea that one or the other should prevail. The reason Artemis is in space right now and the reason Elon Musk is going to be the world's first trillionaire is because of the NASA program, which was paid for by government, Right? So that's the kind of things we should think about is what's good in space.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

And it makes people feel good.

[Kara Swisher]

Like I hear other things. Don't you feel better watching those pictures?

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Honestly, those astronauts are beautiful. And everything they've said to them.

[Kara Swisher]

And their speeches, their speeches.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Amazing, amazing.

[Kara Swisher]

And you know what they talked about when you look at our beautiful planet from abroad, let's get back to our planet. And one of the things that sort of drove me crazy is they want to live forever. But where? And for what? What is the best way to take all this enormous wealth and innovation and make it work for all of us? And that's not communism. It's a better society. If we solved biggest. I'll tell you the number one longevity hack, don't be poor, don't be poor. Because guess what? More stress, more homelessness and feeling like on the edge of homelessness. More stress around daycare and kids and that, your job stress, the amount of time you have to do. We can make people healthier and then we don't pay as much. There's outcomes to how much we mistreat poor people, right in terms of that, because it ultimately has a price for all of us. And the healthier everyone along the entire scale gets, the better for our society. And we can do it in a way that is not narcissistic, that is not just for the rich people. People. And it's not trying to sell you a solution that's going to add a second to your life. Or are you going to have a better life, the time you live here? And that's what's critical to me.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

I mean, it's basic, but it's also the kind of belief system that people will follow. Like, would you ever run for office?

[Kara Swisher]

No, I'm never going to run for office. But, like, sleep is a good example. There's all sorts of manner of crap.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Why you could make a whole bunch

[Kara Swisher]

of people make all this policy. I have a podcast like you do. That's how I do. Until we get rid of Citizens United, we're not gonna have a healthy political system, as far as I can tell.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

But a lot of people would follow that idea into office as well.

[Kara Swisher]

Getting it done is really hard.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

When those billionaires stood in front of everyone else at Trump's inauguration, the grossest

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

thing he's done to date.

[Kara Swisher]

Not him. Good for him. I don't blame him. I blame them. They stood there fair, but because they

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

wanted things and they've mostly gotten them.

[Kara Swisher]

They have gotten. So they're not in it for you, they're in it for them. And so we either have to make them be in it for all of us, or we have to start to say as a group, any of them have shame?

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Like, do any of those people who stood on the dais have capacity for shame?

[Kara Swisher]

The truth is, to talk to some of them off the record will tell you, you know this. Republicans can't stand Trump.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Well, in 1.0, I had so many signal messages. I still don't have an audio signal on my phone because I would be on the. Okay, keep doing it. I mean, that went away in 2.0 when they were either too ashamed or.

[Kara Swisher]

Or I still have people come. You know what I really think I'm like, get the hell away from me.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Correct. Why do they just say it out loud?

[Kara Swisher]

You know what? I prefer Marjorie Taylor Greene. And I do not believe. I do not like a lot of her. I mean, just get to her on trans, and then you're like, oh, I don't like her.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

I remember why I don't like her.

[Kara Swisher]

But at least she had the courage of saying what she thought, right? And so okay. And at a price. Same thing with Liz Cheney. A price. She paid a price. It's interesting. It's a lot of women, you know, go figure. You know, it's interesting. It's not interesting. I think we know why, but it's, you know, it takes an amount of courage to do that. Now, do I want Marjorie Taylor Greene as president? I do not. But at least she had the courage of her convictions to do it. And it's by no means a compliment to her, because that's, to me, is the. Is the basic, like, say what you think. And again, by the way, she's pretty healthy, FYI.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

She's actually.

[Kara Swisher]

She actually spends a lot of time doing stuff.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Do you feel more optimistic or less than when we talked about eight or nine months ago?

[Kara Swisher]

I always feel optimistic. I always feel like I look at. I'm a historian girl kind of thing, a history girl. I think history is long. Just cause you don't know the end of the story doesn't mean it's over, is my feeling on everything. And when you look at history over the long term, the world spins forward. And again, the Artemis thing was really interesting from an inspirational point of view. I'm like, oh, look, it's gonna be here long after we're gone, and it's gonna be fine.

[Nordstrom Sponsor Announcer]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

Ultimately, and I don't mean fine, and that we should let it go to hell. I mean that we tend to one of the great things about this country. And when you go to other countries, you do feel that the innovative spirit is really strong in a good way. And it can also be very depressing in the way it manifests itself. And to me, we have always gone forward. Like 50 years ago, I couldn't have had children. I couldn't have lived the life I live. And maybe they'll try to take it back. They can try that kind of stuff. But there has been a forward momentum. And one of the things we have to do that's important is not when Trump is over. And he will be. And he will be. I'm sorry. One of the things Scott Galloway says in the series, biology is undefeated. Sorry for all of us. Right? Benjamin Franklin. Death takes no bribes. And my favorite was no matter how we struggle and strive, you don't get out of this life alive. And Steve Jobs, it's the best single thing. And so what do we want to do after? And how do we want to reflect? And we can't pretend someone like Trump isn't us, right? Oh, he was.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

What do you mean?

[Kara Swisher]

Well, when I was in college, I studied the Holocaust, and I was interested in the propaganda aspects of it. And again, I was always interested in propaganda. And they effectively used it, incredibly, to do the terrible things they did. But one of the things that came out of it was that Hitler was this monster. He was unusual, he was unique, but he wasn't. He wasn't. What does it take for people to be like that? Look, the way you understand what we could do is see what we've done, right? And so there's nothing man won't do. And to put it, if we walk away from this Trump thing and say, oh, he was a unique figure and he is a unique political figure, but to say he isn't us is a real mistake. You may not agree with him, you may think he's terrible. I do. But we can't pretend that he's this thing that's just a phenomena that just happened, because everything about him is inside of all of us. And the question is, which way do you want to go? And that, to me, is the most important thing to take away from it, is, what are we going to build next? What are we going to do next? And to me, the important things, again, are around health care. How can we have the healthiest society so that we can take this unique American spirit of innovation and make it for all of us? Like, why is it just for them? Why is there a trillionaire when people are starving? It just doesn't. That's, you know, your basic question when you were a kid, like, why are people starving? When most people get that. And I do think most people are decent in that regard, even if they. And we have to let them back in, you know, on the left. It drives me crazy. We're not gonna. It's their fault. We're not gonna. We're gonna let them back. You can change your mind. You can change your mind, and we are gonna let you do that and have the grace to do that, because if we don't, what are we gonna do? Like, we're here on this planet with each other. And so to me, it's an opportunity. It's always an opportunity.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

So best thank you for talking to us again.

[Kara Swisher]

Thank you. And get rid of that red blanket.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

I will.

[Kara Swisher]

Can I ask you one more question? Cause I asked everybody this question, Everyone in the series that I interviewed, from Jennifer Doudna to the man on the street, different people. How do you wanna die?

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Like, at the end?

[Kara Swisher]

Of course, at the end.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Yeah. No, but I mean, like, I wanna die, like, at the end, right Like I wanna see it all before it happens. Like, however it happens, I wanna have seen my kids grow up. So I'm not really kind of agnostic about how it comes. If it at the end, it's a disease that gets me or a lightning bolt. I just wanna have been here a long time before.

[Kara Swisher]

Been here a long time and be able to see it the whole time. Right.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Seeing the kids, as long as it makes you cry, right? Doesn't it make everybody cry?

[Kara Swisher]

It does.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

So I don't really care how it comes. I just wa been here as long as possible.

[Kara Swisher]

One of the things that's interesting is everyone's answer is different. Some people tell me about their funerals, some people talk about their family around them, some people talk about religion. It's really a different answer for everybody.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

What's yours?

[Kara Swisher]

I have a lot, I change them all. One of them was getting thrown in the face of people I don't like pre made because I thought it would be funny, but then I wouldn't be

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

there to enjoy it. So what's that?

[Kara Swisher]

And then I shifted to a Viking funeral where I die and well, when I die then I moved into funerals and I said, my four kids will shoot flaming arrows into all my stuff. It will burn and that will be it. But then I thought Steve Jobs, when he died, his sister, who's a beautiful writer, Mona Simpson, who he met later in his life because he was adopted, but she was his full sister because they went on to have this couple, went on to have another kid. And she said he looked up at everyone and said, wow. Oh wow. Which I thought he stage managed. Cause like. And I was like, what did he see? Like, I thought that was kind of cool. Like what was wow? Something like, I don't know, I'm not religious. So I thought what is? And he wasn't that I, I could perceive what was he seeing, what was happening at that moment. And a lot of people say I want to die in my sleep. And I'm like, but it's the most interesting moment of your. You don't remember your birth? Don't you want to know? Don't you want to be cognizant of what's happening? And so my new one is I want to go, this is to just to fuck with my family in a funny way where you just sit there and you're about to die. And you know, a lot of people do know it, by the way, when they're about to die and fully cognizant and go, oh, you've got to be kidding. And then that's it.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

Yeah. Oh, so that they'll be like, what?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, like, oh, I can't believe it.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

It's like the best kicker.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, the best kicker. That's right. And then my kids will be like, what did she see? And then you'll have to wait. Like.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

And then they'll go out on their journey to try to understand what you saw.

[Kara Swisher]

That's right. Exactly right. That's kind of a good joke. It's a good practical joke.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

I like that. I like that. That one. Thank you so much.

[Kara Swisher]

Thank you, Nicole.

[Podcast Host (Nicole)]

I'll get rid of my blanket now. Thank you so much for listening to the Best People. You can subscribe to NS now premium on Apple Podcasts to get this and other MSNow Originals ad free. You'll also get early access and exclusive bonus content. All episodes of this podcast are also available on YouTube. You visit msnow. The best people to Watch the Best People is produced by Vicki Vergelina with additional production support from Query Robinson, Ayan Chatterjee, and Rana Shahbazi. Our audio engineers are Bob Mallory and Hazik Bin Ahmad Farad. Katie Lau is our Senior Manager of Audio production. Pat Berkey is the Senior Executive Producer of Deadline White House. Brad Gold is the Executive Producer of Content Strat. Aisha Turner is the Executive Producer of Audio and Madeline Herringer is Senior VP in charge of audio, digital and long form. Search for the Best People wherever you get your podcasts and be sure to follow the series.

[Kara Swisher]

Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie From Roof Repair to Emergency Plumbing and More. When you use Angie for your home price projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Angie the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project at Angie Combination.