Kara Swisher on Musk & the “Megalomaniacs” in Charge

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Kara Swisher on Musk & the 'Megalomaniacs' in Charge"

Release Date: June 9, 2025
Host: Nicolle Wallace
Guest: Kara Swisher
Podcast: The Best People with Nicolle Wallace

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Best People with Nicolle Wallace, renowned tech journalist Kara Swisher delves deep into the dynamics of modern leadership, focusing particularly on figures like Elon Musk and Donald Trump. The conversation navigates through the intricate interplay between technology, media, and politics, offering listeners a nuanced perspective on how influential personalities shape our societal landscape.

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Elon Musk's Leadership and Behavior

Kara Swisher provides an incisive analysis of Elon Musk's trajectory from an innovative entrepreneur to a figure embodying megalomania. She reflects on Musk's early ventures, emphasizing his genuine passion for groundbreaking projects such as Tesla, SpaceX, and the Hyperloop. Swisher remarks:

"He was doing really interesting things. At least you're thinking of things that are interesting, even if some of it is just nonsense and just not just vaporware." ([27:29])

However, Swisher critiques the transformation Musk underwent as his wealth and acclaim grew, leading him into what she describes as a "megalomaniac zone." She highlights instances where Musk's behavior became excessively dramatic and detached from reality, attributing some of these changes to personal traumas and the isolating effects of success:

"As he got wealthier, as he got more acclaim, as people sucked up to them... he started to believe his own nonsense and became overly dramatic." ([28:59])

Swisher also touches upon Musk's fascination with technology and simulations, pondering whether he believes we live in a simulation:

"He told me that, yeah, he's told me that on stage. He said it's a non zero possibility. That's their favorite expression, that this is all some alien race that is playing a video game." ([27:31])

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Donald Trump's Strategies and Impact on Politics

Shifting focus to politics, Swisher offers a critical examination of Donald Trump's enduring influence within the Republican Party. She attributes Trump's success to his ability to simplify complex issues and present them in an easily digestible manner, drawing parallels to Apple's design philosophy under Steve Jobs:

"He makes the complex issues of the world seem like, oh, I got a plane. So what? It's like a putt." ([21:59])

Swisher underscores Trump's adept use of social media and media manipulation to maintain visibility and influence:

"He was talking directly to people. He was talking in plain English... he understood the shock value. And I found him to be the first Twitter president." ([14:11])

She further criticizes Trump's approach to governance and policy-making, suggesting that his actions often undermine institutional integrity and democratic processes:

"He has this narrative in his head that the government is terrible." ([32:05])

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Social Media's Role in Politics and Media Consumption

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the pervasive influence of social media in shaping political discourse and media consumption habits. Both Wallace and Swisher express concern over the addictive nature of digital platforms and their dual role as tools and weapons in disseminating information:

"It can be either a tool or a weapon. You're kind of fucked, right, because..." ([37:42])

Swisher emphasizes the responsibility of content creators and consumers in leveraging these platforms constructively:

"People have to make mistakes and make themselves a nuisance. And that's what Trump does... he's a nuisance, except that you like to look at him." ([16:58])

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Media's Current State and Future

Kara Swisher passionately discusses the current challenges facing the media industry, including declining trust and the exodus of talented journalists from major institutions like The Washington Post. She advocates for entrepreneurial approaches to journalism, proposing innovative models that harness AI and decentralized platforms to revitalize news dissemination:

"Let's create that and use the Post as the vehicle... Stone Soup." ([49:43])

Swisher envisions a collaborative media ecosystem where local and entrepreneurial journalists can thrive by leveraging technology and maintaining editorial integrity:

"There are entrepreneurial media figures around to try to figure that out. And I don't feel like we can do it." ([54:10])

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Technology's Impact on Society and Media

The conversation transitions into a broader discourse on technology's role in society, particularly the transformative effects of AI and the internet. Swisher reflects on the historical evolution of the internet and its capacity to mirror humanity's complexities:

"It is us. It is us is what it is. And it will start giving you things." ([57:39])

She advocates for embracing technological advancements while remaining vigilant about their potential pitfalls:

"Use it. Use it for healthcare, cancer research, drug discovery... Like, so many people, journalists I talk to don't use AI. I'm like, what is your fucking problem?" ([56:26])

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Parenting and Technology

Swisher shares personal insights into parenting in the digital age, expressing concerns over the addictive nature of technology and its impact on children's social development. She discusses strategies for managing screen time and fostering real-world interactions:

"It's an addictive thing. You can't physically look away from it." ([36:58])

Swisher underscores the importance of balancing technological exposure with genuine human connections:

"You have to just... It's an endless supply of information. You have to just... it's an addictive thing." ([36:58])

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Conclusions and Forward-Looking Statements

In wrapping up the episode, Swisher emphasizes the urgent need for media reform and the responsible use of technology to safeguard democratic values. She calls for a collective effort to innovate within the media landscape, ensuring that journalism remains a pillar of informed society:

"We have people reporting that you have to keep leaning into, really into." ([55:30])

Swisher concludes with a vision of a resilient media future, where collaborative and technologically adept journalism can withstand contemporary challenges:

"We're not gonna let anyone say what they want. We're gonna have smart discussions." ([51:13])

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Notable Quotes

• Kara Swisher at [27:29]: "He was doing really interesting things. At least you're thinking of things that are interesting, even if some of it is just nonsense and just not just vaporware."

• Kara Swisher at [21:59]: "He makes the complex issues of the world seem like, oh, I got a plane. So what? It's like a putt."

• Kara Swisher at [14:11]: "He was talking directly to people. He was talking in plain English... he understood the shock value. And I found him to be the first Twitter president."

• Kara Swisher at [49:43]: "Let's create that and use the Post as the vehicle... Stone Soup."

• Kara Swisher at [55:30]: "We're not gonna let anyone say what they want. We're gonna have smart discussions."

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a thought-provoking exploration of the intricate relationships between technology, media, and political power. Kara Swisher's candid observations provide listeners with a deeper understanding of how modern leaders navigate and manipulate the digital landscape to exert influence. Her call for innovation in journalism and responsible technology use serves as a timely reminder of the pivotal role media plays in shaping democratic societies.

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Production Credits:
The Best People is produced by Vicki Vergelina and Senior Producer Lisa Ferry, with additional support from Alison Stewart and Max Jacobs. Audio engineering is handled by Bob Mallory and Katie Lau, under the leadership of Bryson Barnes, Head of Audio Production, with Pat Berkey as Senior Executive Producer of Deadline White House, and Aisha Turner as Executive Producer of MSNBC Audience Audio.

For more episodes, subscribe to The Best People with Nicole Wallace on your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Kara Swisher]

I think intuitively, he's got a lizard mentality, right? He's got that lizard brain. So he kind of sees where the power is. In scamming, he is Marco Corleone, and in governing, he's Fredo.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Which you have. Michael Corleone runs the government.

[Unknown]

Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Best People with Nicole Wall. If you could clone one person for this moment in American political life, you would clone Kara Swisher. She's in that much demand. She knows all of the people pulling all of the levers in tech and business and politics and government. She knows them all. And it's on a first name basis with most of them. She's also incredibly generous with first time podcasters like yours truly. So without any further ado, this is the Best People with Nicole Wallace.

[Nicole Wallace]

And.

[Unknown]

And this is Kara Swisher. So you're at the Best People podcast. The Best People podcast is our new venture.

[Kara Swisher]

Are they the best people?

[Unknown]

Well, you are.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, all right. Okay, fine.

[Unknown]

And everyone has to be the best that we could find to talk to us about something.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay?

[Unknown]

So you actually are one of the best people under both. Like the actual best people, but also the best person to talk to about how to pot. I mean, what? Right. Okay.

[Kara Swisher]

All right. So I'm gonna give you a lesson. Yeah, you're all doing it. It's crazy.

[Unknown]

Everyone's doing it, but no one's been doing this as well or as long as you.

[Kara Swisher]

I have Been doing a long time.

[Unknown]

And that's sort of the theme that runs through everything that you do and everything that you look at.

[Kara Swisher]

So you're saying a mold?

[Unknown]

No, I'm saying you see around corners. And I wonder. I mean, I think a lot of people that do that have, like, an intuitive sense.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, I did. Yeah.

[Unknown]

And I wonder if that's what you think explains it.

[Kara Swisher]

I'll tell you where I got the idea from. From Steve Jobs, because they. The ipod, right? And created that whole genre of listening and having the intimate relationship with people. And it started with music. But we did an interview, one of the last interviews he did, where he talked about podcasting, and he had sort of created the genre in many ways. And he said, it's the ipod and broadcasting podcasting, Right. And I was sort of like, huh, that's really interesting. It got me interested because I thought there is an intimate relationship I had with my phone and that people were doing listening in some fashion. And I was like, ugh, advertising is over on the Internet. I think this podcasting is gonna be a big deal. The concept was, I was doing the conference, the live conference where we do Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. And that was about 16 interviews a year. But there were hundreds of interesting people in tech and media that you didn't know about. And so it was taking the idea of podcasting and the idea of the conference and bringing them together where you could meet all these people in a much more intimate and substantive setting. And so what I did was I started bringing in people to do was really fun for me. And one of the things that I knew it was gonna be a success was I had a lot of fans. I always knew my fans. It was like white guy of a certain age, occasionally an Indian guy, an Asian guy, but always the same. Who was a geek. Oh, it's Kara Swisher. I was riding in the Muny in San Francisco, and four young African American women came up to me, and they're like, kara, we love you. And I was like, is this a. Did someone playing a. Like, it was not my demo, really? And they say, we love this, we love that. And they were all. They were only talking about the podcast, which was interesting. And I said, are you in tech? And they said, no. We're entrepreneurs, though. And we love when you stick it to that guy. And we love when you stick it to that guy. And we learned a lesson from that lady and stuff like that. And they all wanted a selfie, and they all felt like they knew me because I talked about myself on the show too. And I was like, oh, oh, this is different. Cause it was. They felt like they had a relationship with me in a way that even though I was well known as a reporter and did the big events that we did not the same. And that moment with those women taking a selfie with me was a big revelation. And so I kept leaning into it.

[Unknown]

I love when anyone has that reaction to anything that we do. I love. Someone came up to me yesterday. I was walking home with my daughter and I hugged her. And I think she was just like, I can't believe you're hugging me. But I felt. So there's something about, like someone that feels right or I like people that are in the community, people that make time to listen to you. And I feel this. And I don't know if it's because I think this whole thing is such a sort of like a winning lottery ticket, right. That I'm doing this thing that I care a lot about. I mean, and I, for the most part, cover Trump and talk about democracy. And there's.

[Kara Swisher]

Hadn't noticed that.

[Unknown]

But I think it's amazing that there are people that'll sit with. I mean, podcast is long. My show is long. What do you think it is?

[Kara Swisher]

Well, podcasts, you'll find different because it's a much more intimate setting. Even more so. Cause on the desk, you're sitting there and you're kind of Nicole at the desk. And like you're at the lights and you're in the desk, but you're running the show. And it's vaguely airless, too. It does. You know, in some climate controlled. Yeah. With podcasts, it's much more intimate. And what's interesting is the different kinds of people that come up to you. Like, I love. They're fans. They are actual fans, which is a very different relationship than a audience or a viewer or a listener or a reader. And so what's really interesting is I had one older woman came up to me and she sat right down. Next, I knew it was a podcast fan and said, I just want to tell you, you're my friend, but I'm not yours. And I was like, I get it. And she goes, you're my friend. Thank you. And I said, no problem. And she walked away. Then I was walking in New York and this big Lincoln navigator made a 360, I mean, 180 on the street. And I thought, oh, finally, Elon Musk's gonna kill me. This is it. This is the moment where I'm taken. Cause that's how it's me, right? Where the fuck is Lyme Neeson?

[Unknown]

Right?

[Kara Swisher]

To get me back. Like, I'm like, notice everything. Do the thing. I was like, notice where it's going so I can tell Liam Neeson to save me. So guy jumps out, big guy, and he goes, garrett's wisher. And I'm like, oh, God, this sucks. This is gonna suck. Cause he's gonna insult me or something like that. And he's like, I love you. And Scott. Scott's always wrong. I love you. And I was like, okay. And he was, did I scare you? I said, you terrified me. And he wanted to. He just wanted to have a connection.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

And so that's what's great about it, that you get all these different people, and they have an opinion about you, because I think you are intimate with them in a way. And that's what you have to lean into. You have to tell about yourself. You have to explain your life. And if you're not genuine, they get it.

[Unknown]

I think that sort of bullshit meter is the flip side of everything that everybody complains about.

[Kara Swisher]

I always argue with the idea that people don't like media. I think they don't like media. They don't feel that they're. That they can understand. And so I always think they don't like this media. They like that media. And you have to sort of explore what they're getting from the manosphere. Blogs, right. Or Manosphere podcast, for example. There's a certain camaraderie. There's a tribe. There's a. And I don't mean tribe in a negative way. Cause it can be used in a negative way. They feel like they're part of something, and they're part of a narrative and story, and they feel like you're a real person. And I think that changes. Even if they, like. I have a lot of people who don't agree with me, but they still want to listen and argue. And that's why we have a lot of people we don't agree with on the show. That's why Scott and I on Pivot don't agree with each other a lot. And we hash it out in a civil way. And I think it gives. Like, recently, it's interesting, we have a lot of people come up to us saying, thank you. You make me feel better. And it's a really interesting thing, because a lot of products don't make you feel better. Including, by the way, news. News doesn't make you feel better anymore. And it's not meant to assuage you. You're supposed to afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted, but it shouldn't make you feel hopeless and that there isn't something to do. And for some reason, with a podcast, you have more options for the listener. It's not dire. It's like, let's get to a place where we can solve a problem.

[Unknown]

Do you think that is a product of the moment in our politics, or do you think it is sort of a post Covid hunger for connection?

[Kara Swisher]

Well, Covid was. We grew up huge in Covid. That was one thing, because people were home and they felt alone and isolated. And when you, you know, there is this vision of radio, is this noise coming out of nowhere, and then you're sitting there in a lonely place and you hear music or you hear a voice or a dj. America's very attuned to that, right? That idea of the radio, and it's so iconic in American culture. One of the things that you also get to do is you get to be substantive. Right. Whether it's Charlemagne, the God, who I think is fantastic. I think Theo Vaughan is interesting. Like, you get to have real conversations that don't feel like cable, which you're on, which is next, next, next. Now we have the thought of the moment, and I do think that people like that too, but they prefer to have a real conversation. So it feels more like a kitchen table. It feels more like a family dinner. It feels more like that.

[Unknown]

Like life.

[Kara Swisher]

Like life, yes, exactly. You'll like it a lot. You'll find it's the one thing you look forward to versus your job, which is interesting.

[Unknown]

I mean, I love my job too, but I know what you're saying about it. Feeling more like the conversations you're having in your real life.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, exactly.

[Unknown]

They're not scripted. They're not on the teleprompter. They're the conversations you have on the sidelines at a baseball game or a.

[Kara Swisher]

Drop off or it's an ongoing conversation, you know, especially like on Pivot, where Scott and I talk about what we've done and what we're doing and where we're going. People are always inquiring, how'd that trip go? I was in. Where was I? Somewhere. Oh, you said you'd be here and here you are. You know what I mean? Well, I'm like, well, yeah, I'm telling the truth of where I am.

[Unknown]

Right. That's all we've got.

[Kara Swisher]

And so that's what's interesting is people do follow. And again, People are used to the genre of a sitcom or a TV show or they're following your story, and stories are what people like. I think.

[Unknown]

I think it's some of the sort of the elites miss the allure of the Apprentice.

[Kara Swisher]

I watched every episode.

[Unknown]

Well, and there's something. I think it had it checked all the boxes. Right. There was a reality TV aspect to it, which is so attractive to so many people. I watched American Idol for years. I watched so you Think youk Can Dance. I mean, there's something about reality TV where you don't know what's going to happen. And then there was this aspirational American story about success and the Apprentice. But I feel like it's a big piece of the Trump story that everyone that doesn't consume reality TV or that didn't watch the Apprentice is still blind to.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, it's interesting. I watched all the Apprentice. I loved the Apprentice. I thought it was really. I mean, I understood. It was like, look, my grandfather did wrestling, was a wrestling promoter, too. So that whole thing. I loved the whole fake story and everything else, and I got the appeal of it and how fun it was, you know, fake gladiatorial kind of stuff. And when I saw the Apprentice, it was that. It was that. That's what it was, essentially. And I kind of saw him as an. I'd hate to use the word appealing with him, but it was appealing. He was self deprecating. He appealed to Bass.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Not just his base. He was self deprecating. He was funny. It was ridiculous. Everything was ridiculous and silly and whatever. You make a lemonade stand and sell this money on Park Avenue or whatever, see if you can get away with this. And so it had kind of a hijinks moment to it. And then there was the whole scene of firing. Right. Which I thought was fascinating. Like it's not real, but it was fascinating. And I watched every episode to the bitter fucking end. That too, by the way. And it got bad. I knew it was.

[Unknown]

It turned.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm like, oh, now it's not good. That's bad. And when he was running, I was at a party in Washington. It was all these Washington reporters, and they were all making fun of him. And I had just done an interview with Arianna Huffington, and she put him in the entertainment section when he ran. And I disagreed with her. I'm like, oh, no, he's very appealing. Like there's something really. You know, because, you know, Barack Obama was the first celebrity president, even though he wasn't a celebrity, he was a Celebrity president, Right. In culture and stuff like that. And Bill Clinton, to an extent, was that. But Barack Obama really did. But then we moved and created a celebrity as president, right? So it made sense that it would go there with someone like this guy. And I was there, and they were, like, making fun of him. And I said, have you watched the Apprentice? And they're like, no. How ridiculous. I'm like, no, no, no. He's a poor person's version of a rich person. Not just a poor person. He's an aspirational person's version. I was like, he's really appealing. I'm a lesbian from San Francisco, and I like him. I'm not gonna vote for him. Cause he seems horrible with his racist bullshit. But, man, do I find him appealing. And that's troubling to me because I can see how he would appeal to everyone else. And he also was a liar. He told stories. He was, like, a constant liar. The way that we have in our history. P.T. barnum, Huey Long, those people appeal to us, these kind of tale tellers. And I just thought he was. And he is actually the perfect person for the Internet age. And that's why I was paying attention, because he really broke through. Once he broke through on Twitter, I was like, oh, this guy's gonna win.

[Unknown]

Why did he break through on Twitter?

[Kara Swisher]

Cause he was his own self. He was his genuine fake self, right? I had that experience with someone. I interviewed Kim Kardashian. Everyone was like, why are you interviewing her? I was like, cause she's breaking through on the digital platform. Because whatever you think of her, she's her genuine version of whatever she's selling. Right? Kind of thing. But he was talking directly to people. He was talking in plain English, you know, he was talking, like, saying crazy stuff. He was doing it for reaction. He understood it intuitively. The sort of shock value. And I found him to be the first, you know, first Twitter president. And the other person who was very good at it was aoc. Opposite, but similar. I did a column in the New York Times comparing them, and I was like, they're exactly the same character in terms of using these mediums. And so he understood he could then bypass the media and get his own messages out and keep everyone in a constant state of snackable. And that's the term they use. It was actually brilliant, it was brilliant what he did there.

[Unknown]

How does he do it for the comeback in this election?

[Kara Swisher]

How did he do it?

[Unknown]

Yeah, I mean, how was he still outpacing all the competition in the Republican Party? And on the Democratic side in year.

[Kara Swisher]

Nine, because they're cloddish, like. Right. They're clodish. I think he's still actually very good at it. It's getting, getting tired. Seasons of the Apprentice, you're like, oh, this guy. This fucking guy again. Like, I know that trick. I know that. Like, so he doesn't have a lot of new stuff. It sort of was like the way he did his. Did the rallies, right? Which everyone made fun of. I'm like, that's brilliant. The rallies are brilliant. Cause you got lots of digital moments that you could pull out, and he says outrageous things, and then, you know, especially the media would be like. He'd say something outrageous, and then the media would be like, can you believe that? I'm like, yes, I can believe it. Cause he did it last week. And so I think it kept him in the conversation that you cannot look away. And one of the things that he is, and I'm using this term correctly, he's promiscuous. He's like so promiscuous online. And that is really a key. And he makes mistakes, and he's promiscuous, and he keeps at it. And you have to do that in today's media environment, because there's no such thing as too much. There's no such. Cause it's a yawning maw of information that just doesn't end like a flood. And if you're not constantly. Just like, creators are like that, too. They have to constantly be making. And he's constantly making. Even if it has a deleterious effect on our country, it doesn't matter. You know, I was talking to. I thought Vice President Harris did a great job online, but she was a little bit away, Right? And one of the things I talked to her after the election, and I said, you gotta, like, where are you hiding? You gotta come back out. And she essentially said, they're sick of me. I'm like, no, there's no such thing as sick of you anymore. Like, you need to get out there and make mistakes and make yourself a nuisance. And that's what Trump does. Really? Well, he's a nuisance, except that you like to look at him.

[Unknown]

What is the role of sort of the way we consume politicians on social media, on cable, on podcasts, and the kind of choices we're making? I mean, we.

[Kara Swisher]

It's not great. It's like Twinkies, right? That's the problem. And although some of them are really good, you can have, like, for example, any news Event that happens. Some of the funny stuff is wonderful. Like, really wonderful and creative. I do think there's so much negative about it, and I talk about this a lot, but there is so much. Also wonderful about it in some ways, sort of the express. It's humanity talking to itself in a way that never. And sometimes it's really vile, which is what humanity is. And sometimes it's absolutely delightful. And one of the things Scott and I were talking about last night, actually, we were out, and I was like. I watched social media for pleasure. Like, he watches certain things. Like, he's always putting up these lovely videos of kids or whatever. Something like, there's always dogs involved in something. And he puts on. He says, this gives me peace. And I said, why are you writing it that way? And he said, cause I feel better after watching that. Not when I'm watching the Trump stuff. I feel worse. So I have to stop doing that. But when I start watching these adorable videos of a dad with his kid or whatever, something, he feels better. So that's a great reflection of humanity. Like years ago, when I was at Google, one of the things they did when you walked into the Later. Not when I was in the garage, but later, they had.

[Unknown]

You were in the garage?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, yeah. I went to their garage when they were founded.

[Unknown]

Where was it?

[Kara Swisher]

It was in Palo Alto.

[Unknown]

Palo Alto.

[Kara Swisher]

Susan Wojcicki's house in her garage. They rented it from him. And that's where I met them. When you walked in there, there was a scroll that went by of all the words that people were searching at that moment, Right? And it would go by, like, whatever it would go by. Often it was news things. Often it was big things. But every now and then you'd see, like, horses, the things people would search, the little. The prompts they would put in, which was like, you know, horses, snow, space. And you're like, what does that person want? What are they searching for? Right. And I would sit there just riveted, like, what are they searching for? And then I sort of started to realize this was the expression of humanity.

[Unknown]

Like, you could see into the thought bubble.

[Kara Swisher]

What are the questions people want to know? And it was like, humanity. This is the brain of humanity and what it's asking for. So what is the question you're asking is so important to understand where you're going. Right. And so that's what I love about it.

[Unknown]

So is that still what's happening, or is it being pushed the other direction?

[Kara Swisher]

Well, absolutely. It's being used for both a tool and A weapon. And so one of the things that, when I was mentioning it to Google people, they're like, you know, we take the porn and dirty stuff and nasty stuff out on that scroll because there's plenty of that. Because people are asking terrible questions, right? And it's gonna get even worse in AI. We can talk about that in a minute. But because the prompt is everything, like that Google box was the question. You don't exist if you're not asking questions. And so that box was so brilliant in its config, so simple in the idea. What do you want? What is it you want? And now AI, the prompt is critical to what's going for. What's your point? The word prompt is so important right now. And so I think it can go either tool or a weapon. It can be delightful. Show me bears getting into houses. Show me asmr. Like cutting sand. I like it. It calms me down. Or it could be, how do I kill my husband? How do I build a bomb? How do I. Right. And so it can go either way because the algorithm doesn't care. The algorithm has no soul. It has no ability to determine. And that's what's, that's the scary part, because whatever you put into it is what you're gonna get out of it.

[Unknown]

People used to ask me, oh, how did Trump take over the Republican Party? And I said, he's like Julia Roberts character in Pretty Woman, what's her name? Whatever you want it to be.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So the Republicans heard, federal judges, they liked. I remember Mitch McConnell came to morning Joe with a crumpled up piece of paper in his pocket, ready to defend his endorsement of Donald Trump. And he said, look, he's gonna appoint all these people. Donald Trump didn't give a shit who.

[Kara Swisher]

No, but he did that.

[Unknown]

But he did all those things. And so he answered the prompt properly for Mitch McConnell. And then he gave his aspirational fans from. He had fans. I mean, I guess back to your first point. Like, Trump was the first Republican politician with fans 100%.

[Kara Swisher]

That's the thing he really did. And what's important to understand, cuz it's very easy. I don't believe in Trump Derangement syndrome. It's so ridiculous. He's irritating. Like that's just normal. He's a fucking irritating person. He's doing terrible things. And so you're mad about it. Fine. That's, that's okay. Steve Jobs once said, the key to Apple was they took complex ideas and made them simple, complex things and made them simple. And what too Many people do is they take simple things that make them complex and people are upset. The ability to make things simple can be a very good and beautiful gift. In the case of Apple, they made a beautiful phone. It was simple, right? It's easy to use. You got it right away. Trump does that for people. He makes it seem simple. He makes the complex issues of the world seem like, oh, I got a plane. So what? It's like a putt.

[Unknown]

But why can't the people trying to defeat him in the Republican Party? He's faced two Republican primaries and he creamed all of them. They weren't even contested. And he's beat two of the three Democrats he's run against.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, cause now he's coalesced power. So he's got it right. So now it's inevitable that you can't go against him. There were moments when they certainly could have, but I think what they were doing is each of them was playing it safe. Like what I was just talking about with Harris. Too cautious. There's no such thing as cautious. You cannot be cautious. The other thing is, I don't think they speak plainly to people. I think the Democrats definitely don't. I mean, like, here's a good oligarch. Please stop saying that word. I know what it means, right. I went to college. But like, what is an oligarch? No one knows. I mean, unless you study Russian history and it's the correct word. It's just, why not just say rich people taking your things, like that kind of thing. And so when I would talk about say an Elon Musk, I'm like, that rich guy's taking your things and he's getting while the getting's good. That kind of thing. And I think Trump does that really well. He sort of, when he did the putt thing, everyone made fun of him. I said, everyone got what he said. Everyone got that message. Cause they understood. He took what is really repulsive corruption down to a, eh, someone offered me something for me.

[Unknown]

Everybody does it.

[Kara Swisher]

Not just everybody does it. It's like, so what? Big deal.

[Unknown]

Well, and I think what a lot of people will believe is that he's the smart one and we're the suckers. Cuz he got a plane for America for free and we're dumb schmoes who would have paid for it.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, exactly.

[Unknown]

And would have charged them.

[Kara Swisher]

We are gonna pay for it, by the way.

[Unknown]

Of course we are. Yeah, well, Paul is here, but when we're back, we'll have much more with Kara Swisher. Back in a moment.

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Unknown]

We all belong outside we're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to or the succulents that adorn our home, nature makes all of our lives, well, better. Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it, but the outdoors is closer than we realize. With alltrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on trail navigation. Download the free app today. At Strayer University, we help students like you go from Is it possible? To anything is possible by offering access to up to 10 no cost gen Ed courses so you can reach your goals affordably and fast. Visit strayer.edu to learn more. No cost gen eds provided by strayer university affiliate sofia. Eligibility rules apply. Connect with us for details. Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by Chev and has many campuses, including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia.

I have this sort of thing that anyone that does grave seemingly like indiscriminate destruction to an institution, whether it's cheered on by their base or not, is separate from their own sort of pathology. Why they do it that there's some trauma story or some something. And that's always been my theory with Trump. And the more I've gotten to know the family members that have written books that seems to bear out what is Elon Musk's trauma story.

[Kara Swisher]

One of the things I used to say to a lot of people I covered because you could see that the trauma obviously lack of therapy. We would have done very well if he had gone to therapy at one point. But he didn't. But I used to always there are a couple different people and I'd say I'm so sorry your parents didn't hug you enough as a child. But they're dead. So let's move. Let's see where we can go from here and so that's not an excuse, it's an explanation. Right.

[Unknown]

That's all I'm hugging for, right? Because here we are, right?

[Kara Swisher]

In some places people are just bad people. They're just.

[Unknown]

Is he a bad person?

[Kara Swisher]

No, no, he wasn't. I will tell. He definitely had problems from the get with stuff around racism. You know, his family history is really quite fraught with racial issues in South Africa. And his grandfather.

[Unknown]

Tell me the basics of it. Cause I.

[Kara Swisher]

His grandfather was so anti Semitic, he got kicked out of Canada to go to South Africa. You know what I mean? His grandfather was an absolute dead active professional, anti Semite and racist. Now again, that's his grandfather. He never met him really. I think he was a toddler when his grandfather died. But there's the history of it. Like we escape our history, but at the same time it's something we need to acknowledge. Right. As we move forward. You know, he was raised by a very difficult parent. Father. I don't think the mother was any walk in the park either, by the way. They always focus on the father. But my feeling is they're all feral essentially. And I think that he had a bunch of trauma when he was younger. He says bullying. We. I don't know, it never has been reported out, but that's what he and his family say. And so I think he had a lot of trauma. And then he was. You know, he has obviously autism issues. And he's a creative person who's very deeply enmeshed in science fiction, whether we're in a simulation or not. Very creative.

[Unknown]

Do you think he thinks that we're in a simulation?

[Kara Swisher]

He told me that, yeah, he's told me that on stage. He said it's a non zero possibility. That's their favorite expression, that this is all some alien race that is playing a video game. I mean, everything. I often look at Elon in terms of video games. Right. He loves video games, even if he cheats at them, apparently, according to other gamers, to give himself more purchase. And that's all about not being loved enough if you have to push yourself out there. Right. Essentially. But one of the things that I've always thought that he's in a video game and he's the central player. If you play video games, there's a central player and everyone else is a non player character. That's how I look at what he thinks. And so he's ready. Player 1 and that's it. I think he started off as someone who was trying to do really interesting things. And one of the things that attracted me to him was you had all these tech people that were like, making another dating service or digital dry cleaning. Like someone. Kara, we're doing digital dry cleaning. I'm like, I'm gonna kill myself if I have to talk to you. Right. And so he was doing, like, cars. That was cool. Like, I really did believe in the issues around fossil fuels. He was doing space. I actually believe we do need to be a multi planetary species, because if we're just gonna rely on this planet someday, we will not exist. Makes sense. And so he was. All this stuff he was doing, energy was interesting. Even the stuff that was kind of wacky, like the hyperloop. I'm like, interesting, right? At least you're thinking of things that are interesting, even if some of it is just nonsense and just not just vaporware.

[Unknown]

Essentially.

[Kara Swisher]

I didn't care. I was like, these are good, interesting, big ideas. And so what's interesting about him is that he was on that train. And then as he got wealthier, as he got more acclaim, as people sucked up to them, as inevitably happens with rich people or famous people, most rich people now, he started to believe his own nonsense and became overly dramatic. At one point, we did an interview where he said, if Tesla doesn't survive, humanity is doomed to me. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? No. There's been a car. You could die and there'll be another car company. But he was in this megalomaniac kind of zone. And very dramatic. I have to sleep on the factory floor. Which I was like, there's a hotel next door. Why do you need to do that? But just like he was living in this kind of weird, dramatic fantasy. And it helps you, if you're an entrepreneur, be like that. Be sort of suspend disbelief, essentially. And he was like that. And then Covid, I have to say, did a number on him mentally. No idea. I did a number on a lot of people mentally. Right. So some people react to certain things. I think the isolation. I think he already had a proclivity for taking credit for things he didn't do or wanting to be at the center of attention. And look at me, which to me always stems from parenting. I just feel like it does. I think that he started using drugs quite a bit. I think that's been well reported, especially ketamine. And if you've ever taken it, which I did, it's a very disassociative drug. I hated it. I only took it to understand, but it was. I've never felt more Alone in my life. Not lonely alone. Like oh my God, I'm completely alone in the. You know when you're sitting outside and look at the scars for five minutes, you're like, I'm alone in the universe. This is an extended version of that essentially. And I think the one that I recall with Elon was when they didn't invite him to that summit, that car summit. And I heard an earful from him a lot. Cause it was also like, I was like, calm the fuck down, dude. Like you didn't get invited because you're unions. Because it is union hostilities, terrible hostility, unions. And so as he was getting more megalomichal, moving more into the drugs, getting more attention as a rich person, escaping reality that most people live in, that happened. And I think cause he's such a petty person that really got under his skin. And later I remember talking to people in the bar, I was like, oh, that wasn't good. You need to bear hug that guy like right away. But then he started going down lunatic highway with the Nancy Pelosi's husband. When he got attacked, he retweeted very heinous. And then I was like, oh fuck you. Like, are you kidding me? You bought this thing. I refuse to let you do this. And then it continued with racist stuff and anti semitic stuff and you know, the wink and a nod kind of stuff. He didn't even have the guts to be that way. Like I don't have any respect for those people, but at least they have the guts to say their terrible heinous things. He was like, interesting concerning. Well, while retweeting a bunch of really nonsensical vile things. Vile things. And to me that makes you a coward. Like at least if you're gonna be that way, be that way. And so he did that.

[Unknown]

So you understand the Trump.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, what's he doing with the government? I think he has a thing in his head that he has this narrative in his head that the government is terrible.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

We can all agree government needs reform for the past, I don't know, million.

[Unknown]

Years, but the federal workforce is the one that was actually turns out the efficiencies. And they would appreciate the efficiencies.

[Kara Swisher]

That's what he's been here. He can't find fraud. He can't find much fraud.

[Unknown]

Well, just like Trump can't find the people who are adjudicated criminals to deport. Correct.

[Kara Swisher]

That's right. You have to like dig them up and they're usually hard working people. And one of the things I think that it's shown is that we run a pretty good government and the only way to really cut things is to deal with healthcare. That's just like, let's be honest, you could even Scott was telling me, if you taxed all the richest people in the world correctly, it still wouldn't matter. It's a drop in the frigging bucket. We have to deal with healthcare, the expense of healthcare, even defense spending, expensive, healthy pay, double the amount that everyone else does. And our government is in debt because of it. And if we don't, reforming healthcare would go a long way. But that's too hard.

[Unknown]

That's right. So it's just easier. Nobody wants to do it.

[Kara Swisher]

It's easier to wield a chainsaw and scream your dad and go after. And he went after things. I'll tell you that. We're regulating him for the first time. And so of course it's all in his self interest. All in his. And that's the same with all these guys.

[Unknown]

You have four kids. I think I had my feelings about the election. I was pretty crushed to see Trump win after January 6th and after being convicted. But I think I was most sad that my son, who's now 13, the first time Trump was there, he didn't really sort of oblivious to it. But this time he'll be 17 when he leaves office.

[Kara Swisher]

This is their era, right?

[Unknown]

Right. And so I feel like in this second Trump presidency, it's not to be endured. We have to find a way to sort of thrive and, and make the most of it. But how do you talk to your kids about Trump?

[Kara Swisher]

Well, I have two different sets of kids. I have older, I'm a straight white man, so I've had my second family and I have older kids who are Trump is all they know.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, they sort of know Obama. My ex wife worked in the Obama White House, so they were old enough to understand the Obama era. But largely it's a lot been Trump, you know, with a Biden moment in between. And so I think I do watch them a lot. And I find I am more heartened by younger people than older people. I think the problem we have is people 30 to 50, really, they need to shut the fuck up and calm the fuck down. All of them, the right and the left. Right. Like calm the fuck down. Cause they're always on Twitter, they're always doom scrolling. They're always like, you know, younger people have a much less frantic attitude. They do. And so I do feel better when I talk to my kids, but I do think they. I think we have to make them feel that one government works for them, that they have respect for government. That there are heroes, that there are people that are heroes. That this idea of get while the gettin's good.

[Unknown]

Who are the heroes?

[Kara Swisher]

For me, there's so many. There's all kinds of heroes. I mean, I think average people are the heroes, right? Like, average people are the heroes. And we spend too much time in this celebrity culture. Although I do think, like, someone, like some musicians are so incredibly beautiful the way they do stuff. My kids listen to a lot of hip hop and stuff like that and explain it to me. And then I see it, I'm like, oh, this is.

[Unknown]

My son does the thing on Spotify where he shows me the lyric.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And tells me the story. Like it's like an important story. Exactly. Not to be. And I think like parents judging. I refuse to ever judge his music choice. Sometimes I don't want to play it out loud.

[Kara Swisher]

Around my mom's voice is terrible. They have incredibly good taste, right?

[Unknown]

They have good taste.

[Kara Swisher]

One time my son was using my Spotify and someone saw it and said, you have great taste. I'm like, it's not my taste.

[Unknown]

Yeah, my son has better taste than you.

[Kara Swisher]

They would do that. So I don't know. I think there's a lot of heroes. I think your parents should be your heroes. Right. I think ultimately one of the things that I think is lost is a community aspect. I think online does. At one point, my son was looking at his phone. I used to make them put them down. And he goes, there's just one more thing. I go, there's always one more thing on this thing. I said, it's an endless supply of information. You have to just. It's addictive. You can't not use it. Cause it's important for social, it's important for your job. And it's everywhere. It's ubiquitous. And so it's like a drug. It's like a. You know, the only other industry that says the word user is the drug industry. Right. Users. You use your phone. And so one of the things that I spent a lot of time doing with them is them trying to pick their head up and look around. And I think I've been pushing really hard for schools to take phones out of schools, for example. Everyone's like, that's so conservative of you. I'm like, no, it isn't. It's an addictive thing. You can't physically look away from it. And so I spent a Lot of time talking about that. There was a movie, I think it was Barry Levinson, I'm not sure. It was a big ethnic family that was in Baltimore, and they did everything together and picnics and various things. But as the movie got later, the television entered the scene and there was a scene of them all watching television, eating dinner. And then he pulled out and then there's just the blue glow. And I remember thinking, that's what this is, right? It's an even more immersive experience. And as we get into AI, we get into robotics, we get into vision, which you're gonna have, we will isolate from each other in a way. And so I spent a lot of time talking about that with my kids.

[Unknown]

Do you think those innovations are good? Are they bad? Does it not matter? We just have to put them in.

[Kara Swisher]

Doesn't matter. Yeah, they're coming, it's coming, it's coming. And you can't. But you have to understand the addictive nature of them. And again, when something's addictive and necessary, that's the real the rub. And can be either a tool or a weapon. You're kind of fucked, right, because.

[Unknown]

And how do you teach a kid? I mean, we wouldn't let kids smoke one cigarette, you know, I mean, how do you. How do you, like, what are your. For your littles. What are your screams?

[Kara Swisher]

Frozen. Then there's Moana and then there's Frozen. Then there's Frozen three. Frozen three is coming.

[Unknown]

Sing one and Sing two.

[Kara Swisher]

They don't like sing really now it's Paw Patrol, which is upsetting me because that sucks.

[Unknown]

We're a big Sing. And Pets Unlimited.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, a lot of it. We only let them use it for. It's just the way you consume tv, like kind of stuff. And I don't mind it.

[Unknown]

No, me do. I mean, I have a one and a half year old and we watch movies and movies.

[Kara Swisher]

Like talk about addictive. When you go to the supermarket now, they have products that are frozen products.

[Unknown]

Oh, I know, I have them all. Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Frozen. Frozen yogurt.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah, Right, okay.

[Kara Swisher]

And my daughter has to have it, right? Has to have it. And every time I take a picture. There was frozen string cheese the other day. Of course I had to buy it. I mean, I don't have to, but I do. And I take a picture and I send it to Bhagavad. I'm like, fuck you, fuck you. And he's like, hahaha, I've got you again everywhere. But it's hard because they love to they love it. It's cute. And especially because listen, even with adults, TV has gotten really good. Talk about something that used to be the boob tube is now the intelligent tube, right? TV shows are astonishing. They're incredible, right? They're incredible, actually. And so I look at that in a good way. Like there's some amazing stuff that art is happening on TV now.

[Unknown]

Are you optimistic? I mean you laid out tech has all this power.

[Kara Swisher]

They do.

[Unknown]

And the image of inauguration with all of them on the stage was just like harrowing to me. It was like if you know what it's supposed to look like.

[Kara Swisher]

The idea that like the richest people.

[Unknown]

In the world guys were looking out at us like, you know, well, Trump.

[Kara Swisher]

Did that on purpose. I mean he's brilliant. And that way it was interesting because what that was showing was Trump showing. I think he purposely wanted to be inside so that would be the visual, right? I'm sure that he had the richest people in the world at his beck and call. Now what I think he doesn't get, cause he's a grifter, he gets this right? They too want the things they want. And so they were there to get, as they did in the first Trump administration when they wandered up to Trump Tower for that meeting, which I broke that story when they did that. And they did it in kind of a sneaky way where they didn't talk about immigration, they just wanted their tax breaks. They wanted this. They have the same set of things and this time it's for AI. They want a hegemony in AI and they want no restrictions in AI cryptocurrency and a number of other tax related things.

[Unknown]

And he'll give it to them.

[Kara Swisher]

He is giving it to them right now. Everyone has a different thing they want. Bezos would like the investigations to go away about their pricing power. Apple would like the investigation. Google's already lost two cases and so that looks like it's headed. I don't think Trump can do much about those. But they, they all want a different thing. And largely right now, cryptocurrency aside, because that's obviously the Trump family is using that to give themselves payments secretly is AI who is going to dominate in AI. And the government will have a significant part because there are national security implications. And so they're all there in acute in the next big competition. And so it makes utter sense that they're there for that and everything else they say. And Musk wants to go to Mars and he's getting that. That's what he wants. And he really does. And that is, to me, his ultimate goal was that and to get the regulators off his back. It's not that it's helped Tesla in any way. And that's going to help. Tesla's going down right now.

[Unknown]

Do you think so?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, yeah.

[Unknown]

And it stops being viable.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, I always say the planes are covered with the bodies of pioneers. I mean, they were a true pioneer in the space. I think the reason, even though he blames these protests and this and that and his stupid. I mean, he brought this on himself, FYI, these protests. So stop blaming the protesters. Just his.

[Unknown]

Well, and then the geeks criticism is so biting. The world's return, Killing the world's poorest child.

[Kara Swisher]

I thought that was amazing. I'll tell you about that in a second. But the First Amendment stuff he's talking about is nonsense. It's just that's not what they believe in. They want a thing. And so I always look at the things they want and Trump will give it to them. And in AI, it's critical that they have no federal regulation in an area that absolutely needs federal and global regulation. This is like we're in the dawn of the nuclear age and the private companies are going to decide what nuclear.

[Unknown]

Bombs are going to be. Nukes and stars, him.

[Kara Swisher]

That's what this is. That's where we're heading. So we are in a really critical. And Trump will give them carte blanche to do all these things.

[Unknown]

Will Trump give them carte blanche because it's the transaction that benefits him or because he doesn't understand?

[Kara Swisher]

Both, I think both. I think he understands what it means. I think he understands. Yeah, sure. Because I think intuitively he's got a lizard mentality. Right. He's got that lizard brain. So he kind of sees where the power is. And I think he does. I mean, of course, he's over in crypto. That's where the scammers are. And he gets that. Like if he's on Brand, Scott was saying if, you know, in scamming he is Marco Corleone and in governing he's Fredo.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Which occasionally have Michael Corleone run government. Exactly. But I think he does understand the government will be critical to understanding and how we react with China and how much regulation there is. But they want unfettered, which is a real mistake because all our great innovations have been made through a public private partnership, along with universities. So Trump's attacking universities where the Internet was invented, AI was invented. That's the real problem here.

[Unknown]

And the smartest scientists.

[Kara Swisher]

And these private companies will only do things for shareholder value. And honestly, they should. That's their job. They don't have to save our world. But that means everything will be done for shareholder value. And that's a prescription for disaster for most of humanity.

[Unknown]

We'll be right back with more from Kara Swisher. Stay right here.

[Nicole Wallace]

Building a business may feel like a big jump, but On Deck small business loans can help keep you afloat with lines of credit up to $100,000 and term loans up to 250,000. On deck lets you choose the loan that's right for your business. As a top rated online small business lender, OnDeck's team of loan advisors can help you find the right business loan to fit your needs. Visit ondeck.com for more information. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtibank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amount subject to lender approval.

[Unknown]

We all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to or the succulents that adorn our homes, nature makes all of our lives, well, better. Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it. But the outdoors is closer than we realize. With Alltrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on trail navigation. Download the free app today. At Strayer University, we help students like you go from is it possible to anything is possible by offering access to up to 10 no cost gen ed courses so you can reach your goals affordably and fast. Visit Strayer. Edu to learn more. No cost Gen EDS provided by Strayer University affiliate sofia. Eligibility rules apply. Connect with us for details. Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by Chev and has many campuses including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia.

Do you walk around this plant feeling more scared or more optimistic?

[Kara Swisher]

I'm a student of history. I think we've gone through these things. I mean people that especially Americans, we don't remember, you know, you remember the Whiskey Rebellion. We almost ended on that. We almost ended on Huey Long. We almost ended on McCarthy. You know you can. We have been through especially you know, I would recommend Rachel's book prequel because it's all the same thing. Like it's the same lunatics who mess up trials and yell and and senators that are bought and paid for by the Nazis in that case. And so you sort of are like, we keep doing this. We're so suicidal as a nation in some ways. And then we pull it out kind of thing with innovation, with excitement, with going somewhere. But this guy is really doing a number on democracy. He's doing a number on. He's stressing the system. And it's held up in many good ways. Right. With the courts, the judges. But pushing it towards violence is something I do worry about, the shove, the slight shove towards violence. And I do think that is an opportunity for the Democrats to stop. They have to start saying what they are, like, what they're for. And I think what's interesting to me is that Trump's numbers are really low, but the Democrats are really low. This is like, are you kidding me? This guy is on the ropes and this is where the Democrats are.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I mean, politics used to be about zero sum. Right? One went up and one went down. Our politics are now. They don't like anyone, are just zero, zero.

[Kara Swisher]

So why not start to say, again, it's this risk taking this.

[Unknown]

That the Democrats don't have the authenticity.

[Kara Swisher]

The authenticity and the risk, like, do a $25 minimum wage. So what if it doesn't pass?

[Unknown]

Say it and make before what you're for.

[Kara Swisher]

Be for what you're for and say what you're. And there are a few politicians like that. There's a number of them, yeah.

[Unknown]

Who do you like?

[Kara Swisher]

I've always trying to get Mark Cuban to run for president.

[Unknown]

I won't do it.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm like, why?

[Unknown]

Why won't he do it?

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know why. I'm like, why am I backing up another billionaire? I don't know why.

[Unknown]

But he has some money, he's a great communicator.

[Kara Swisher]

He's got a great communication.

[Unknown]

I appreciate how he communicates.

[Kara Swisher]

He's compared to a lot of people I've covered. He was such a jerk when he was younger. He and I used to be. I was like, you're such a jerk. Like, arrogant prick, essentially. And he's evolved. I like a person who's evolved.

[Unknown]

He's a great communicator.

[Kara Swisher]

He's always thinking about things and now he's thinking about solutions. I think Gates is someone I never got along with. I can't believe it. And, you know, literally, I was like, you're an awful. Like, one point, when my partner was interviewing Melinda Gates on stage, we were backstage and she was so great. I was, you know what? I like you 10% more and that you're married to her. And I was married to someone he liked and he's like, I like you 10% more. And he goes, where are we at? Then I go, 10%. But he has really evolved as a. He had said that to me earlier this year about musk when he was cutting usa. He was very upset. Cause he has shifted and dedicated his life to really helping people. Like, really truly. He's like Andrew Carnegie situation here.

[Unknown]

Gates has been on the ground in Africa for decades.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, what happened? He was really anti government when I first met him. He was super anti government. Sucker. And then he went there and he saw the complexity of it and he saw the things. And then he started to appreciate some of government. Some of it doesn't work. Some of it does, but you can't. Life is complex because that's what an adult does. And he said that something. A version of that to me backstage in an event I did with him when he did his Netflix documentary. And I said, why don't you fucking say that in public?

[Unknown]

Why don't they? I mean, he finally did. But what are they afraid of?

[Kara Swisher]

I think they're afraid. They're afraid of the. He already had been attacked for Covid for vaccines. Remember, he was putting vaccines. He was attacked person plots and shit like that. So he got a lot of income. Even if you're the world, one of the world's richest people, it's terrifying when you have all that hate aimed at you. I don't know. I think he thought we were still in the same old system where, you know, you don't talk dirty of the other people. And I said, you need to say that publicly.

[Unknown]

Correct.

[Kara Swisher]

And I think he got around to it. He's like, I'm sick of this shit. And I think Melinda was saying it and so he was a little competitive. She was saying it clear because all the women say it clear, whether it's Lorraine Jobs backing the Atlantic or Mackenzie Bates. Bezos just given away the money. The women are really of tech are out there doing the actual thing. So I think he got. He was like, why am I not saying it?

[Unknown]

Are you looking at the post and taking it out? I was, yeah, I am.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I have enough. I could raise some money easily. Very easily. There are good billionaires out there. I mean, I don't even have to go very far to go down the stack. But he doesn't wanna sell it. He doesn't wanna sell it. I don't say, you can't buy something someone doesn't wanna sell. And so I have a vision for it.

[Unknown]

What's the vision?

[Kara Swisher]

It's about Creating a national newspaper in. In a new digital way that takes from all across the country. I think there's so much really interesting entrepreneurial journalism going on across the country. All these little startups and journalism.

[Unknown]

There's a substack newspaper almost, but except with taste. I'm sorry. Curated.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm not a fan of platforming Nazis. I don't care. You can do it if you want, but I wouldn't. Right.

[Unknown]

Or was this philosophy a pro democracy?

[Kara Swisher]

A philosophy is a pro democracy. You know, he's like, we're for free markets. I'm for democracy. That's what we're for. And I don't. You know, I think democracy dies in the full light of day, not in darkness.

[Unknown]

Me too.

[Kara Swisher]

And so I have an idea of using the Post as a vessel and bringing in the things that these people need right now, say podcasters or there's all these websites starting in websites and news organizations starting in, like, Mississippi and Louisiana. They're doing amazing jobs. They're nonprofits, most of them. And why not give them audiences and coalesce the things they need? And everyone's doing artisanal. Is audience advertising, help with video, YouTube strategy. Everyone's doing it on their own. But there's a need for a. It's sort of the opposite of the New York Times approach. New York Times. Everything is baked here in our beautiful autismal bakery that you love. Well, why not help everybody else? Think of it like Stone soup. That's what I call my project. Stone Soup. I love it. Let's create that and use the Post as the vehicle. Because there's very few national things. Why not use that as the vehicle? Have a great layer of great journalism on the top. Not heavy, very thin. And then go all around and pull it in and through AI really, you can build your own newspaper of what you want and what your needs are and sort of beat them at their own game. Because you have taste and you have editorial taste.

[Unknown]

Like platforming the point of view and the quality all over.

[Kara Swisher]

Whatever you want.

[Unknown]

Outsourcing the work, the journalism.

[Kara Swisher]

But have a level of editorial taste and discretion and smartness where you. We're not gonna do that. We're not gonna let anyone say what they want. We're not gonna. We're gonna have smart discussions. And you would do, like. A lot of companies also have to own everything. I don't have to, like, I want to own my stuff. And so do a lot of entrepreneurial journalists and media organizations. Why not let them own it? And I'll take 30%. I'll sell your advertising. I'll give you legal protection. I'll give you this. I'll give you that. The idea I had at the Post, which I thought was a good one, was Katherine Graham. Remember her tit was caught in a ringer. Remember when they threatened her, I was going to create the Ringer Foundation. That's awesome. Fund all these things and then say, everybody, we're gonna create an insurance company for media companies now to push back and sue these fuckers that are doing these nonsense lawsuits at media companies. Okay, you wanna sue us? We're gonna sue you. We're gonna sue you back. We're gonna protect the Times versus Sullivan. We're gonna bring in the best First Amendment lawyers. You think you're gonna win this? Like, I think one of the things that doesn't happen is we sort of sit here and react to their aggression. I can punch them in the nose, just the same kind of thing. And so I think you could use something like the Post to create a whole new kind of media organization. And you have to figure out the costs, because one of the things I have done is everything I've made has made a profit. So you have to sort of start to think of journalism as not a church and not. It either has to be owned by billionaires or be a nonprofit. It can't be a business. And so we need entrepreneurial media figures around to try to figure that out. And I don't. I feel like we can do it.

[Unknown]

I can't wait to see that.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, we'll see. He's not selling that. There are other. I can find another. If Jeff Bezos doesn't want to sell me his container, I will find another container. But I don't think. I think he's a terrible owner at this point. I think he's. I've never liked him personally. I think he's always been a difficult person. He was a Wall street guy to start with. Everyone sort of got fooled into thinking he was this liberal icon. He liked books. He never was. He was a Wall street guy, like, let's be clear. And now he's with the person he wants to. The life he wants to live, which is very, very, like, glamorous, whatever. Good. All power to his astonishing midlife crisis. But which it is. Right. Come on.

[Unknown]

It's amazing.

[Kara Swisher]

Let me tell you. I never saw those muscles on that fabric.

[Unknown]

I was about to say the muscles are amazing.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, that's. But that you have to like. People are like. Don't talk about their looks. I'm like, but he's saying something with his physical.

[Unknown]

You also can't hide from it. It's like all of it. He's saying something and it's all over their social media. He wants us to see.

[Kara Swisher]

They put it out there. I know somebody's like, you shouldn't talk about it. I'm like, literally, the man is putting out pictures of him in a tight T shirt. I can talk, so he should do that. I just don't think he's the correct owner for what he is for the.

[Unknown]

Washington, at least not at this moment.

[Kara Swisher]

And I'm not romantic about the Washington Post either. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But I grew up there and I worked for Ben Bradley. I worked for Katherine Graham. And I gotta tell you, that was a magical time. And I'm not nostalgic for it. I just think the reason they succeeded is cause they were providing a great product at the right time for the right people, for the right prices.

[Unknown]

It's so sad that all those great journalists have fled. I mean, that to me, from the outside is just such a sad sign.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Having talked to. As they leave, I feel like I'm the exit interview for the Washington Post. Yeah, sure.

[Unknown]

Well, everyone wants to know where.

[Kara Swisher]

Let me tell you something. Of all the people that left, none of them wanted to leave.

[Unknown]

I'm sure not.

[Kara Swisher]

None of them wanted. That was remarkable to me. They had all these offers, very talented people. But they love that institution, so I do too. I started in the mail room.

[Unknown]

Yeah. What do you. What do you advise us to do as we sort of are in our opening inning here?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, well, I think it's an opportunity, like I heard a lot of bellyaching like, oh my God, what are we gonna do? First of all, you made a lot of money. And that profit used to go over to the mothership all the time. Right. You didn't get to use it. You made a lot of money. It's a declining thing. That is true. But you still make a lot of money. What are you going to do with that money? It gives you an opportunity to be entrepreneurial. And I remember saying to someone, stop your fucking belly aching. You have an opportunity to make things. You have an opportunity to win or lose, essentially, because you can now have your own destiny. I know we're in a post fact society, but we really are. And so if you have great reporters and you keep coming in like there's been never, like, as I said, Wired has been doing astonishing reporting on dope Incredible. They can't escape the truth. And so if you do it fairly.

[Unknown]

And people still want it.

[Kara Swisher]

That's correct.

[Unknown]

Also got like a surge of. I was reading their new numbers. I mean, like, people can't get enough of that.

[Kara Swisher]

That's right. You guys are going up.

[Unknown]

But not every Wall Street Journal. I mean, they've done incredible reporting on the Trump story.

[Kara Swisher]

That's right.

[Unknown]

Sort of an unexpected.

[Kara Swisher]

So I'm saying, if they can do it, why can't we? Everyone can do it. And that's what I would say. But I always think, like, people are always like, how do you think of your product? I'm like, what am I making today? Do I like making it? Because if I don, I'm going to stop. Two, what am I making? What am I going to make? I think of it like a chef. Like, what am I making today? And what are the ingredients that are going into it? And you have an opportunity to make. What are you. What are you going to do? Like, And I think that's the best thing you have going for. And plus, you already make money. You do have this legacy business that is declining cable. Well, okay, now what? Streaming. What are you going to do? You make a streaming thing. Are you going to partner with people? Are you going to buy things? Are you going to, like, stop acting like it's the end times? Right? That to me is like, is a prescription for failure. And it's, sorry, things have changed, but my friends, they've changed and AI is going to change it some more. So how can you use AI, Right? Like, so many people, journalists I talk to don't use AI. I'm like, what is your fucking problem?

[Unknown]

What would we use AI for?

[Kara Swisher]

Everything.

[Unknown]

Everything.

[Kara Swisher]

It's everything. Like, when the Internet first started, I covered it early, and I did see it early. I remember standing in front of. There was a teletype machine that went. You know, that would. Then you'd pull the news off and then you'd have the wire. Yeah, right. But I used to stare at that fucking teletape machine. I'm like, you need to take this out of here. Or, like, make it into like a coffee urn or something. Because we're not using this anymore. Everything's on there on the computer. Yes. And they're like, well, you know, it's important. I'm like, no, I used to obsess on it. They say, what is your problem? I was like, I want to take a hammer and break it. Because I was like, that is not the future. It's old And I should. I didn't do it. I didn't do it. But I was always like, you have to keep leaning into, really into. So the Internet, when it. First I put my email on my stories, and all the reporters are like, why do you want readers to talk to you? I'm like, because they're smarter than you are, that's for fucking sure. And second, so then I would get feedback from people. I didn't listen to it all the time, but they knew what they liked.

[Unknown]

I got to hear from them.

[Kara Swisher]

That's like. We began our conversation. The second thing is someone said, what's the Internet? To me? When it first started, this is in the early 90s, in the 90s, right? And I said, it's everything. And they're like, what are you talking about? I said, what's the world? It's this, this, it's that, it's you, it's my face, it's everything.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

So what are you gonna do with it? And they're like, what do you mean, everything? It doesn't matter what it is. It's everything. Everything. It's everything.

[Unknown]

Everything.

[Kara Swisher]

You should use it. She'd start asking it questions. And what it is is essentially the version of it is. Is now the Internet. You used to go search for things, just like you used to search in a Circuit City for a tv, but now then Amazon made it, so it came to you through algorithmic search, right? It's the same thing. Google used to go find it, and then you go down into the website and then find it and find it. Find. Now it just brings out at you. It's out at you, and it's broken a little bit now, but it's getting better. It's getting better and better as humanity is getting worse and worse. And just like I said at the beginning with Google, it is us. It is us is what it is. And it will start giving you things. So I put in. I said, come up with a logo. Five seconds. This is what I want it to look like. This is what I want it to say. Now people are like, oh, you put all these graphic people out of business. They're gonna have to. Yes, unfortunately, I feel slightly badly. But the fact of the matter is, do you feel like someone was saying that to me? Like, oh, you put a graphic. I said, do you feel badly eating that fucking carrot that was made by mechanized farming? Are you thinking about all the farmers you put out on things like, our world changes, then those people have to. We have to get great jobs for those people. So if you're doing like Aurora as a trucking. Autonomous trucking. Oh, it's gonna end up. For trucking. First of all, we don't have enough truckers. Two, it's an incredibly dangerous job. People shouldn't be doing trucking 24 hours a day. Cause they can't do it. These cars just keep going. Why not create jobs at hubs in cities and then send trucks into the city? Not just dispatch. You can't bring the autonomous trucks into cities. So have people bring them in. Then people can live near their homes and have better lives. Like, start to be fucking creative about what you're doing. And so with AI, use it every day. Use it for once. You use it just like the Internet when people were using it for. Then they got it. Then you're like, oh, once you start using it, you will understand it completely. It is so intuitively easy to figure out once you get it. There's a huge amount of danger, too, about what it could do. But there's also a huge amount of good things to do. Cancer research, drug discovery, drug interaction. Like, is it real? Kills a lot of people. Diagnostics.

[Unknown]

Well, to your point about healthcare, I mean, there's a lot of interesting healthcare stuff.

[Kara Swisher]

Totally. So use it. Use it.

[Unknown]

We love getting to talk to you.

[Kara Swisher]

Will you come back? Yes. Anytime.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm not the best at anything else. I'm the best at going to a hardware store. I hate that because I love hardware store.

[Unknown]

I like hardware stores too.

[Kara Swisher]

What's your.

[Unknown]

I like.

[Kara Swisher]

Like, they're my. They're my church. I love.

[Unknown]

I like, like a small local. Are you like a.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes.

[Unknown]

Home Depot or are you like a neighborhood?

[Kara Swisher]

San Francisco is the best hardware store in America.

[Unknown]

My. On the Upper west side. There's a great one on Amsterdam in the 70s. Yeah. We just walk up and down. In the winter they have sleds, and in the summer they have sunscreen.

[Kara Swisher]

It's like, what is. Like tools. I'm like, what is that? And they. There's. We are such a creative human. Creative All.

[Unknown]

All the.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean. Yeah. The little shit.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

It's delightful. So we could do a hardware store.

[Unknown]

Yeah, we could do a hardware store too. Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Otherwise I'm not an expert on. I'm a good parent. We could talk about parenting someday.

[Unknown]

I heard you're a great parent.

[Kara Swisher]

I am a great parent.

[Unknown]

Most important thing.

[Kara Swisher]

You know what I don't do? I don't say my kids suck. That's the one thing.

[Unknown]

I love my kids so much. I feel like I love them more every day in a way that almost makes my heart hurt.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, but they're great. One of the things, friend of mine, they were like bellyaching about their kids or something like that. And like, how are your kids? I go, my kids are great. And they're like, well, you know, kids are difficult. I'm like, they're really not.

[Unknown]

They're not.

[Kara Swisher]

I'll tell you what's difficult. 10 other things about my kids. 10,000 happy to talk about parenting.

[Unknown]

I know, I know.

[Kara Swisher]

Lesbians should do all the parenting. Just so you know.

[Unknown]

Here, teach all of us how to do.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, you have all beautiful macho men who are love women and women who are confident of themselves. We give all the kids to lesbians and then we'll give you back.

[Unknown]

I mean, I really feel like this is the moment. Thank you so much.

[Kara Swisher]

Thank you.

[Unknown]

Thank you. The Best thank you so much for listening to the Best People. Be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to get this and all the other MSNBC podcasts ad free. As a subscriber, you'll also get exclusive bonus content that we're so excited to share with you later in the series. The Best People is produced by Vicki Vergelina and senior producer Lisa Ferry, with additional support from Alison Stewart and Max Jacobs. Our audio engineers are Bob Mallory and Katie Lau, and Bryson Barnes is the head of audio production, Pat Berkey is the senior executive producer of Deadline White House, and Aisha Turner is the Executive producer of MSNBC Audience Audio. Remember to search for the Best People with Nicole Wallace wherever you get your podcast and follow the series.

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