Podcast Summary: The Best People with Nicolle Wallace

Episode: Ken Burns Believes in our American Experiment

Date: September 1, 2025
Guest: Ken Burns
Host: Nicolle Wallace

Overview of the Episode

This episode of "The Best People" welcomes acclaimed documentarian Ken Burns to discuss his vision of America, his approach to history and storytelling, and the lessons we can draw from America’s past in times of upheaval. Through stories from his new documentary on the American Revolution and reflections on the American experiment, Burns explores the fragility and strength of American democracy, the power of complex storytelling to change minds, and the ongoing challenge of living up to the nation’s founding ideals.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Power and Purpose of Storytelling

• Story as Emotional Archaeology
  • Ken Burns describes his storytelling as "emotional archaeology," seeking meaning beyond "dry dates and facts."

    "I was interested in an emotional archeology, not just excavating dry dates and facts and events. They're super important, but they needed to be accompanied by something, by meaning." — Ken Burns, [02:31]

  • He compares history to storytelling that shapes how we act and interpret the present.

The Fragility of History and Democratic Ideals

• Museums & History under Assault
  • Burns expresses concern about the erosion of trust in facts and historical institutions.

    "It's terrifying in a way. It's so frustrating. I just… I feel for these people that I know. I've made all these films going to those places. I know who runs them… and history tells us the fragility of all of these systems. You feel that they're under assault." — Ken Burns, [04:26]

Lessons from the American Revolution

• Democracy Wasn’t the Starting Point

  • The American founders did not set out to create a democracy; democracy emerged as an unintended consequence of broad participation in the Revolution.
  • The Revolution was a civil conflict, involving teenagers, second and third sons, immigrants, and people whose stories have rarely been told.

• Violence, Complexity, and Community

  • Burns recounts brutal stories of neighbor fighting neighbor and fractured families (e.g., Benjamin Franklin’s son turning Loyalist and leading violence against patriots).
  • He argues America's origin is richer and more complicated than the simplified hero narratives.

    "The suffering in the revolution is proportional to the suffering in our Civil War. And yet our Civil War is not a civil war in the real sense. It's a sectional war... But in the Revolution, civilians and Americans die all the time in this bloody struggle to create this country." — Ken Burns, [12:54]

  • Embracing the "complexity" of these stories pulls us away from binary thinking, fostering more genuine connection to our history and each other.

The Metaphor of Bedford Falls vs. Pottersville

• Choice of Community
  • Burns repeatedly references "It's A Wonderful Life" and the choice between community-oriented Bedford Falls and greed-driven Pottersville as emblematic of contemporary America.

    "The whole American question is, where do you want to live? In Bedford Falls or Pottersville?... Bedford Falls is a community in which we are all bound to one another… For me, the choice has been simple my entire life since I saw that film. I want to live in Bedford Falls. I don’t want to live in Pottersville." — Ken Burns, [09:06] and [00:59]

Faith in the American Experiment

• A Reluctant, Necessary Optimism
  • Burns admits that his faith in the American experiment is born out of necessity rather than luxury.

    "I don't have the luxury of not having it. I have to believe in this experiment. People like to say that history repeats itself. It never has..." — Ken Burns, [17:41]

  • He frames the Revolution as the most important event since the birth of Christ, describing the creation of "citizen" as entirely new in human history.
  • He uses sports metaphors to underscore the need for self-critique and resilience.

The Role of Storytelling in Political Polarization

• Stories Change Minds, Not Arguments
  • Citing novelist Richard Powers, Burns asserts that stories, not rational arguments, change people’s points of view.

    "The best arguments in the world won't change a single person's point of view. The only thing that can do that is a good story." — Ken Burns, [46:29]

  • He emphasizes patience, seeking community, and telling stories rather than arguing as means of bridging divides.

The Enduring Impact of War and Who Gets Remembered

• War Stories Center Ordinary People

  • Burns recounts how his initial reluctance to focus on war gave way to an understanding of its broad communal impact—and the necessity of rescuing forgotten voices (youth, women, minorities) from historical obscurity.
  • He shares the story of Rebecca Tanner, a Native American mother who lost five sons in the Revolution, as an example of the hidden costs and breadth of sacrifice at America’s founding.

    "The only thing we know about her existence is one line. Rebecca Tanner lost five sons... Mrs. Sullivan, in World War II, four sons go down in the ship. And so we changed the rules. That gives us separated families and Saving Private Ryan." — Ken Burns, [34:21]

• Women, Minorities, and the Margins of History

  • Describes the critical roles played by women, Native Americans, and African Americans, calling out the dire consequences of reducing the founding narrative to only white, male, elite actors.

On the Burden and Hope of Being a Storyteller

• Personal Roots in Storytelling

  • Burns reveals that his own drive to wake the dead through storytelling is rooted in personal loss (his mother’s early death).

    "My storytelling is born in tragedy... My late father in law said that I wake the dead. That's what I do for a living... Who do you think you're really trying to wake up? You're trying to wake your mom up." — Ken Burns, [42:45]

  • He reflects on the hope and generational rebirth that continues the cycle of American reinvention.

• Resisting Apathy

  • Burns warns that apathy—present even in the American Revolution among the "disaffected"—is as big a threat as extremism.
  • The antidote is lifelong learning, engagement, and remembering that the nation is "a process of becoming."

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Democracy is a consequence"
  • "We're not setting out to create a democracy. Democracy comes as a consequence of the revolution. And that begins to tell you that sometimes these unintended consequences, these unanticipated byproducts, are what the stuff of history is." — Ken Burns, [07:10]
• On complexity and binary thinking:
  • "Stories that have complexity then avoid the binary stuff we're engaged in." — Ken Burns, [15:21]
• On “waking the dead”:
  • "My late father in law said that I wake the dead... a lot of it is a conversation with [my mom]." — Ken Burns, [42:45]
• On patriotism versus apathy:
  • "If you value these things that we have, we can disagree... but you cannot not want to have some sort of skin in this game. You cannot just play it coy and kind of be the person that's going to profit one way or the other." — Ken Burns, [46:29]
• On the high office of citizen:
  • "Our example [is] not the pursuit of power but the understanding that the highest office is really still citizen and that the trappings of power have no place in the people's government." — Ken Burns, [38:54]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening Theme & Bedford Falls Metaphor Introduced – [00:59]
• Burns on Emotional Archaeology, Storytelling, and Meaning – [02:31]
• The Assault on Museums, Facts, and History – [04:26]
• Lessons from the Revolution: Civil War within the Revolution – [10:28]
• Bedford Falls vs. Pottersville Revisited – [09:06], [00:59]
• PBS and the Threats to Public Storytelling Spaces – [15:54]
• Faith and Optimism in America: Sports & Self-Critique Metaphor – [17:41]
• Naturalization Ceremonies and American Covenant – [23:11]
• The Stories that Change Minds – [46:29]
• The Roles of Children, Women, Native Americans, and Enslaved People – [30:45]
• On Reenactments & Voice Actor Choices – [36:11]
• Ken Burns’ Personal Motivation—Waking the Dead – [42:45]
• On the Dangers of Apathy – [46:29]

Tone & Language

Ken Burns’ presence is warm, thoughtful, and deeply reflective, using stories, vivid details, and historical anecdotes. Nicolle Wallace serves as an engaged and respectful guide, frequently drawing Burns out on personal points, and underscoring the national relevance of his work. The conversation is earnest, layered, and frequently leavened with humor and humility.

Takeaways

• History is not simply a record of facts but a living, breathing method of understanding who we are.
• America’s story has always been complicated, incomplete, and in progress—not a binary of “good” or “bad.”
• The “American experiment” requires constant engagement, self-critique, and commitment to community.
• Storytelling—not argument—remains the most powerful tool for changing hearts and minds.
• The roles and sacrifices of ordinary people—often left out of traditional narratives—are central to understanding America’s founding and its ongoing journey.
• In an era threatened by both extremism and apathy, embracing complexity and connection is more vital than ever.